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Up Your Average is the “no nonsense” podcast made for interesting people who think differently. Learn to navigate your life with unconventional wisdom by tuning in to Keith Tyner and Doug Shrieve every week.
We all tend to to only seek and embrace the information that confirms what we already
believe.
This can be called closed-mindedness, this can be called whatever you want to call it, but
but but the human brain just attaches itself to to to to what it wants to believe and what
it knows.
You try to be aware of it when you see it.
You try to question the source.
Welcome to the Up Your Average Podcast, where Keith and Doug give no nonsense advice.
To level up your life.
So buckle up and listen closely to up your av.
Talk to me, Doug.
What we need to know this week?
Well, what you need to know is who you need to know, and that's Don.
Our good friend Don.
Been friends with Don a long time.
And Don is here to tell us everything he knows about life.
He's here to tell us about math.
He's here to tell us about cars, about cruises, about biases.
And my favorite Don story, do you know what it is?
You were with me, I think.
No, I don't.
I've got good Don stories.
My favorite Don story was Don has a really great sense of humor, like a A tier sense of
humor.
And it's so good that he even used it to buy one of his vehicles.
He bought a Ford was that thing a crown?
Was it a Crown?
No.
Yeah, the L T D Crown Victoria, the white the white police cruiser.
Yeah.
And it looked just like a white place cruiser.
Did you have the license plate?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Had the thin blue line on the front.
That's right.
And so Don and I and Keith, I don't know, I thought you were with us, but we're cruising
into the journey.
I do cruise.
Like all you can eat buffet where a bunch of investors go for lunch.
And um Don is turning into or onto the road.
There's a traffic light, there's cars coming.
And Don holds his hand up like this to stop traffic as he's turning the crown Vic on and
oh just made my day.
I gigg giggled for a long time on that.
But you're hungry.
I didn't want you to wake.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that.
So that's what's up, Keith.
It's a blast to have you here, Don.
It's uh it's good to be with you.
It's such a funny thing that you know that one of the top things that we try to advocate
with our clients is to think differently.
Because the the crowd's always wrong was kind of our opinion.
And we just know that you can bring that to to our friends as we're chatting about today.
Thinking differently.
How do you how do you get caught in ruts in your thinking process?
And then how can we take thinking differently and integrate it into financial planning
ideas?
And so th that's that's what I'd say.
Let's just kick it off in that direction.
So it's
In relative terms, it's a new topic, behavioral finance.
About seven years ago, behavioral finance came on the scene.
And the origin of it was what's called the Dalbar study.
And the Dalbar study showed what investments did over recognizable time periods, one year,
three year, five year, et cetera.
And then what the average investor got during that time period.
And what we noticed was there's a behavioral gap.
There's a gap between what the investor got and what the investment did.
Over those time periods, if the investor had just left them alone.
And discovering that behavioral gap, we've come up with a bunch of different biases and
some of the things that people do that are mistakes in the way they handle their
investment.
And what I've heard you and Doug do, which I don't hear many financial advisors doing, is
apply these biases to their financial plans and how to think a little bit differently.
And the first one I always like to talk about is the availability bias.
And the availability bias says you tend to think about information that's available to you
like you have more information than you actually have.
The example I always like to use is 300 BC.
There was a Greek astronomer called Somas that that determined the that the sun is
stationary and the earth goes around it.
300 BC.
It wasn't until the 1600s that Galileo and Copernicus and Kepler figured this out as being
real.
So for 2,000 years, we didn't have that availability of that.
And, you know, you can think about some things in financial planning that work that way
too.
You always do what you've always heard, even though things change.
That's really uh that's really kind of helpful.
For a lot of things that that your availability what I w a couple of ideas I was thinking
about was in nineteen eighty four when I left college, I had a single credit card.
Can you guess what it was?
Take a stab at a visa.
Diners Club?
None of those were available to a youngster then.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Sears and Robot.
Yeah, that is a good example because nobody had credit cards.
And I think I don't know, Caleb, w did they offer you credit cards in college?
Yeah.
Yeah.
of course they do.
Yeah.
Anchoring jams up a lot of people.
The example with anchoring is um
About 20 years ago, William Sonoma made a breadmaker and they put it in all the stores and
it was 350 bucks and that they didn't sell any.
None of them, none of them moved.
Somebody got a great idea of making a slightly smaller one with a few less features at
half the price.
Well, if you walk into a store, you don't know what a breadmaker costs.
You see a $400 one, then you see the $200 one below it.
You say, I'm a smart consumer, I'm gonna buy the $200 one.
They were flying off the shelves.
Restaurants use this today in their wine lists.
Restaurants are notorious for this.
They put the the the the highest markup in the middle price range of the wine list.
Because you walk in and say, I don't want to look like a cheapskate, but I don't want to
spend the most expensive bottle.
So I'm I'm gonna look in the middle.
And again, you can apply this, you can apply this to planning because you take only only
the information that's that's available to you right in front of you and make decisions
based on it.
Here's here's a bit.
That we see everywhere in life.
It's called confirmation bias.
When I have a conversation with a group of people, I often joke and say, now nobody
answered this question, please.
This is a rhetorical question.
I don't want you to.
As a matter of fact, put your hands underneath your legs, because I don't want you to you
guys are great.
I'm gonna play along.
You tell me what network you get your news from, and I will tell you with remarkable
accuracy who you voted for in the last election.
Because we tend to you could you could s because we all tend to all to only seek and
embrace the information that confirms what we already believe.
This can be called closed-mindedness, this can be called whatever you want to call it, but
but but the human brain just attaches itself to to to to what it wants to believe and what
it knows.
This is what do you do confirmation bias.
You try to be aware of it when you see it, you try to question the source.
You know, if if you read if you read studies based on certain pieces of information, you
always want to know who's funding the study.
Who's who's paying for the information?
And this gives you a chance to to determine whether or not you're you're being open-minded
or not, or whether you're only seeking the information that you're looking for.
I can remember I did a uh a a Bible study years ago that um Keith had done earlier in his
life.
And I did that Bible study secretly um to learn how Keith thought.
And I can remember that study offending me, a Bible study offending me.
It you've done the study, the Roman studies.
I have.
And and I can remember it offending some of the religion out of me.
And I say religion because it was repeated thought process that I I'd kind of bought into
over time.
And that that's the last time I remember being really offended and of
Of my thinking and my ideas, but it was really a healthy process.
It is healthy.
And healthy is such a great word because the only way to overcome these is to be able to
recognize them.
There's another one that I like to talk about, and it's overconfidence.
Take a room full of, you pick the group, student athletes, musicians, whatever it is,
financial advisors at a seminar and say, hey, who in this room's above average?
Every hand goes up.
This is sometimes called the grandeur bias or the overconfidence bias.
And and I don't know if we see it a lot in financial planning.
I th I think this is one that that that we really don't into run into much because people
tend to be a little more conservative than maybe they have to.
Uh I know we were having a discussion about sequence of returns where uh you you you the
returns during the first portion of retirement are very important.
Because if you have a drawdown in your first portion of your retirement, that really
affects kind of the whole thing.
Uh but but but overconfidence is one that that I you know I think I think we all run into.
And it kind of goes to a little bit of Monday morning quarterbacking, which is hindsight,
which is another bias, where you say, I should have recognized this could happen, or I
should have recognized that could happen.
And you can't, right?
Because there's too many variables.
In fact, there's so many variables that pattern seeking.
is a uh is a is a bias.
It's um pattern seeking and recency bias kind of run hand in hand.
Well the last time I did this, that happened.
Really, but the 20 times before that that you did that, it didn't happen.
But we tend to hang on to what happened most recently.
And patter see pattern seeking is a tough one in in in in the business, uh in the business
of investing and in the business of planning because
There's just too many variables.
It's it there's there's no way to really kind of determine the outcome.
So Don, you grew up in New York, like in the city, right?
Yeah.
And then you moved to Arizona.
Went to school in Arizona.
And you've lived here how long?
I've lived here longer than I've lived anywhere else.
I've never been happier.
I love it here and so twenty two years.
Like uh w when growing up in in New York, would have you ever imagined that you'd see the
world
Through a Hoosier's eyes.
I never would have been able to find it on a map.
Right.
If you gave me multiple choice.
So what has living here done for you?
But look at what you just did, Doug.
You applied kind of kind of pattern seeking in the variable to going from one part of the
country that is incredibly geographically centric, right?
New Yorkers don't think, don't think anything happens outside of the border of New York
City until you get to maybe Los Angeles, right?
To
Where the heck is Indiana?
And I love Appian.
Just think of how many different binary decisions go from the example that you used with
me ending up ending up in in in a cornfield to to someone's retiring.
How many single binary yes or no decisions are there?
And can you possibly find a pattern in there?
I suggest you cannot.
What what I'm wondering, and this is probably going back to confirmation bias, is my
perception of New York City.
Is they are the smartest people on the planet.
Well, I would have to agree with that.
Yeah.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
So so during the COVID lockdown, I broke the rules, believe it or not.
I drove into the city just to see what was going on.
And it was mind boggling to me what was going on in the city.
Um I had a well let's let's remember that, like describe it.
'Cause that that was a few years ago.
Yeah.
What what what was so I I was judging New Yorkers.
by how stupid I thought they were as a it doesn't a hoosier.
And then I just um the the world was starting to open up a little bit and I was having
lunch in Bloomington outdoors because I could have outdoors lunch and and this New Yorker
started talking to me.
And then my my thoughts began thinking, maybe maybe I need to rethink the New Yorkers.
So I literally asked a friend to drive into the city.
I think two weeks later we were in the city and I was just really humbled by it.
The fact that nobody was the whole city was empty.
Like they were all they were all gone or indoors.
Yeah, there must have been the high-rise, but probably it it took us from Times Square to
the financial district.
I don't think it took us more than 10 minutes to get all the way down.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
Now now now look at what you just did.
So in my opinion, everybody, and I know that's a that's a term you should never use.
There's no zeros or one hundred percents in the universe, but
The majority of us better, safer.
The majority of us either overreacted or underreacted to COVID.
And I think where you lived in the country determined whether you were an overreactor or
an underreactor.
Why?
Because they all watch the same news.
Okay.
They don't watch the same news in New York as we watch in Indiana as they maybe watch in
Chicago or Lexington, Kentucky.
It doesn't matter.
But it's information bias, it's confirmation bias.
And it's, you know, a number of things where you say, well, I'm only gonna I'm only gonna
wear two masks instead of instead of one mask, or I'm gonna wear my mask in my car alone.
And whatever whatever it was.
But there's a lot of these biases that dictated our behavior during that timeframe.
One of the ones that that really affected me was probably twenty years before that was
confirmation bias.
I I had an opinion of something that was going on in the US and a friend of mine was
pretty high up in the Pentagon.
And so I told him my opinion and we tend to be biased the same direction.
And he told me that's not what happened at all.
And I was like, well my my lose deliverer told me that's what happened.
And so I immediately turned off the news thing because I'm like, well, if the one I think
is right is not telling the truth, then probably none of them are telling the truth.
And so it it affected the way I processed life even because it's
Once you have that wake-up call, it's like, maybe the bias I have isn't true.
Just like that study you went through, it changes the way we look at things.
And it and it is, and it's not an argument that I will have, because arguments you y if
you if you're gonna start an argument, you w you you want to seek an outcome, right?
If you're gonna start a disagreement or a back and forth with somebody, y y you really
should have an idea where you want the conversation end up or what you're trying to
accomplish.
That conversation about
News media biases is unwinnable.
And the only the w the way that I try to steer clear of it is someone will say, well, news
media outlet A is fake.
And if the other opposite side of that coin is news media outlet B, I'm going to say,
well, they're all fake because they're all biased.
You can watch the same new you can watch the same news story on both outlets and come up
with a different with a different solution, a different spin.
Look at the number that came out this morning.
I can I can turn that into the unemployment number, of course.
I can turn that into a positive conversation about state of the environment, or someone
else might be able to turn that into a negative conversation about job participation and
things of this nature.
Again, you have to drill down and say who's reporting and what's and what's the agenda and
what's the bias.
And I think how I would apply this to financial planning is to just account for the
unknown.
Right.
We had a conversation earlier again.
I'm talking about sequence of returns.
Is y you know, you just you just know.
I think a lot of these bias, when I think when I was thinking about 'em, that really the
best way to help yourself think through it is just humility.
Like pride says, I know what's right, and and I I I'm right in humility says.
I might be wrong again.
It's overconfidence.
We already talked about it.
A great way that I found is just to have more friends.
Yeah.
And so if you if you have more friends, you have different types of thinkers, you have
different ways that they were raised or grew up and you get exposed and your world view
can really change.
What about this, Don?
Th this is a financial planning thing that really concerns me where we're at today.
Just like only thing I had in the mid eighties was s Sears credit card people.
probably have more credit cards than they should today.
They should.
And Billy Walters, I don't know if you're familiar with him or not.
I am not.
Yeah.
He gives you the formula for how he made hundreds of millions of dollars gambling.
He gives it to you in this book.
But what he also gives you in this book is why you do should not gamble.
Like if you go to Las Vegas and you just look at the skyline, it tells you I should not
gamble.
Pretty clearly.
Yeah.
And and so
What he says in there is that he only will take a bet if he has an edge on it.
And he he scor he has ideally grads working in his computer room, putting the variables in
and so if somebody that was Caleb Spear was gonna go out and bet twenty dollars this
weekend, they're betting their twenty against Billy.
Betting against him?
Well, they're like he's he's he's got the odds on his favor.
And what they think is because they like the cults, they know that what the cults are
gonna do or I see.
You see what I'm saying?
Well, I think I think what you're describing is is what we call asymmetric risk.
Uh an asymestr asymmetr uh symmetric risk is most easily described as trying to pick up
dimes in front of a steamroller.
And when you make a bet or make an investment or make a choice on something, does the
upside equal the downside?
More importantly, does the upside potentially outweigh the downside?
There was a there was a great quote, this going back longer than I really want to admit,
from the head trader at Lehman Brothers at the time.
His name was Ace Greenberg.
And somebody was interviewing him and they Ace, what's the secret to trading a big book of
business like you have?
He said, Don't lose money.
Right?
And and if you can't tell, I like to kind of boil things down into
Words that everybody can understand, like picking up a dime uh a dime in front of a
steamroller.
The bad hurts more than the good helps.
Meaning if you lose ten percent on an investment, a blackjack table to stick with with
with your example, Keith, you have to make back, I think it's thirteen and a half percent
to get back to b to to break even.
So the bad hurts more than the good helps.
And it's I I I think it's important in in a plan.
To account for asymmetric risk, right?
Is the here's here's another one.
I can't I can't turn it off.
Is the juice how does that one go?
Is the juice oh juice for it that's that's it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So Don, you you're a math guy.
I mean you just whipped out the thirteen and a half percent.
Like, was there a a teacher early on, if we go in the Don time machine, was was there a
teacher who green lighted this kind of stuff that you remember some someone that really
No.
He said, hey, you're okay.
Like I didn't discover it until college.
Really?
Yeah, I didn't discover it.
I didn't discover my interest in math until college.
I really didn't.
What was it about your college that allowed you to discover that?
I was studying s I was studying, I was in aviation and I was studying something that was
interesting to me, right?
That's human nature.
We all had to have piano lessons as kids.
And my father would come in the house and I'd be playing the piano and he'd say, It sounds
like the kids wearing oven mess.
And and fast forward about 20 years ago, I started playing guitar and I love to play the
guitar.
And couldn't quite honestly, I'm I'm good at it.
I can play anything I want to play because I'm interested in it.
Right.
So that's where you go.
That's right.
That's right.
And and and that's why I didn't discover it until until college.
Yeah.
Let me let me shift back to all the biases with that statement right there.
Like one of the financial financial planning biases that that struck me was that I think
The time Caleb gets out of school, he starts he's been told he has to do retirement.
Like it max your 401k, max your IRA.
And nobody tells him to max his interest.
Like find what you're passionate about and just go do that.
Because if you do that, the money's gonna take care of itself.
But over the last 40 years, that's that's the primary thing that's been thrown out there
to people.
And I'm not saying neglect the finances, but
You only have one wife.
What are you interested in right now?
Well boy, that's that's a move that's a moving target.
But to just to to follow up on on on what you just said, I've heard you say that.
I've heard you say that in telling me stories about your kids, your adult kids, your your
out your kind of in between childhood and adult.
Make sure you're interested in what you're asking me to throw money at.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I tell you And the reason why is because I will throw it at it.
And I don't want to throw it at the wrong thing.
I know you will.
I say it's a moving target, but you know, I find I find what I'm discovering about
artificial intelligence to be fascinating.
Okay.
I find I I I saw something recently that said something like thirty five percent of
Americans believe they have interacted with AI.
Thirty five percent believe.
How many you think have?
I'd say a hundred.
It's it's pretty close.
Yeah.
It's pretty close.
Now don't forget she got your off the gridders.
oh You know the thing.
But that would be great off the gritter on the podcast.
They they may have even got it with their what do they call the k the chemtrails?
They may have gotten th those may have been operated by AI to get it.
Do you pay for an AI service?
Like a consultant.
Are you subscribing to one?
No.
So how how are you expressing your interest in it?
The awareness of the interactions.
In other words, 12 months ago, if I said, tell me an example of you interacting with
artificial intelligence, I would have given you an example that I was swiping groceries at
the store over the scanner and I was making two separate transactions because I was buying
a couple bottles of St.
Elmo cocktail sauce for a client in Nashville, Tennessee, because we could buy it in the
grocery stores here and they can't.
And I finished swiping the groceries that.
were for us and I paid with with my credit card.
And the thing called over, help us on the way, right?
Those those words you can all hear, right?
The thing sent sent over the the person to check and put a red circle around the image of
my cart that still had items in it.
And I thought, that's AI.
Isn't that amazing?
Now that was 12 months ago.
Think about now.
You and I were chatting earlier about you called Delta Airlines and the body.
It just says, hi I'm the bot, I'm going to be helping you.
And I used to just hang up.
Because the bot can't help me.
First of all, it has trouble understanding me.
Yeah.
And my my my choices of words and my accent and uh everything else.
But the bot helps now.
The bot's really good.
The bot's really good.
And I I think when you go back to thinking about how many car manufacturers there were
just in the state of Indiana in the 30s.
And and then I go back to.
Another kind of bane of I'm sure your guys' existence is being financial advisors,
everybody wanted to talk about pot stocks in the early two thousand, right?
And and recently.
And how do you know how many web browsers were there in nineteen ninety five?
Right.
How do you know which one was gonna be?
And I think that's kind of what we're watching with AI is
I I I hear investors all the time talking about the Fab five, right?
That drive the the the eighty percent of the returns in the S P five hundred.
And when you and I when when you were growing up in the business, Keith, it was the Fab
forty.
Can you believe only forty percent of the the forty stocks in the S P and people say, well
it's gonna be Nvidia and Motorola and Oracle.
You can't make those you can't make those those decisions.
Yeah.
The only thing we know for sure is AI eats water and electricity.
That's the only thing we know for sure.
Yeah, that's that's cool.
So that's what you're exploring now.
Noticing.
I'm not sure I'm exploring it because I you know Cal Fussman does a great job talking
about AI.
If you ever want a great podcast to listen to Cal Fussman's um Big Questions is a good
one.
Well, I'm gonna write that down because you know how much I drive and I'm always I'm
always looking for content.
What what are you thinking when you're thinking about the AI for young people when they're
looking to the future?
Like I know, probably a year ago is if the the word was all these jobs are gonna be eaten
up by AI, but what do you think about somebody like Caleb, or maybe some of the tasks that
he's doing today won't even be necessary a year from now?
Um, do you see it as intimidating for young people or do you see it opportunistic or how
do you view that?
Well, uh I see you have
very expensive looking microphones and I don't know how expensive your cab is.
Those microphones are the real deal.
You know that.
Your music guy.
You know the shures.
That's the way to go.
I'm just gonna have to take your word for it.
But we're we're where I'm going with this is uh I'm not a young guy.
But what I what I do know about revolutions like this is it will cost jobs, but it will it
will
Clear the path and open the door for quote unquote better jobs, what that means.
It's a little bit scary about how some of the pay services, like like Doug was pitching a
few minutes ago, can actually give advice.
And I think it's important, especially as an investor, when it comes to your financial
plan, to realize where that advice is coming from.
One of my favorite
stories about market advice I got from a park ranger in a uh a a national park in Colorado
probably thirty-five years ago and what he said was in the odd chance that you encounter a
bear, the most important thing to remember is to resist the urge to run.
And I didn't realize it at the time.
That's true.
But I was getting pretty good financial advice from the Park Ranger.
And it takes us back to the numbers that everybody's seen.
Over the past 10 years, it'd been 2,500 trading days, right?
20 trading days a month times times 10 years gets you to about 2,500 trading days.
If you missed the top, how many days?
Yeah, the best 50.
If you missed 50 out of those 2,500 days.
Your return went from 13% to minus 4%.
50 days out of 10 years.
Watch this.
20 years, 5,000 trading days.
Returns were 8.9% over 20 years.
We're going to come back to that 8.9% number.
If you missed the best 50, you not only didn't make 8.79, you lost 3.87.
Is that the S P 500?
It is the S P 500, which I'm glad you recognize that, and shame on me for not.
For not mentioning which one it was.
No shame, Donna.
But the SP isn't isn't the be-all end-all.
In fact, I I think if you only invested in the SP, you'd be committing financial financial
planning um malpractice.
You have to be in other places.
And I said we were going to come back to the 8% number.
It's funny because some of the financial advisors that I talk to always talk about using
that 8% as a kind of a guideline.
In the financial plan and kind of determine over a very long p period of time, we know
where an investor is today, and we can kind of calculate where that investor is going to
be upon retirement based on using some of these guidelines, as long as the time period is
long enough.
And you know how many times since 1965 the SP's done 8%?
Exactly three times.
Okay.
Yeah.
So we use we the the the financial advisors that I talked to use that number as kind of a
A guideline on what it's going to do over time.
And look, I just showed you over 20 years it did 8.7, but it only hit that number three
times.
And that's I think what jams up a lot of investors is the volatility.
The volatility, though, seems as though that there's some type of bias that you work away
from that with time when your hairline matches mine, you tend to be more concerned about
the volatility than when you're Caleb's age.
Recency bias, right?
The last one, the last two really stunk.
And when you look at a long short-term uh track record of whatever market you want to
discuss, whether it's the SP or the NASDAQ or whatever it is, and you trick your mind from
looking at the dates on the bottom access, you can't find the last calamity.
Right?
When you're living in it, when you're in the middle of it, recent bias, it seems
traumatic.
But when you when you look at a 20-year chart, you can't find it.
And the story that I've heard some people tell is think of of that chart on the market and
picture a child on an escalator playing with a yo-yo.
Right?
Yeah.
Most picture.
Most investors look at the yo yo.
Most professionals look at the child.
So don't worry about the small, sometimes small, hopefully small periods of volatility.
Don, I cannot
Thank you for joining us.
What else I got one more question for Don.
I've got one more question for Don.
You're gonna bring it home.
Yeah, no, I'm not gonna bring it home.
d we'll we'll you can do that.
But but Don, you've you've got a pretty cool ring right there.
And and I'm guessing at one time that was a mega interest for you.
I don't even know what it says, but tell tell us about what that is and that interest that
you have.
I got this one the hard way.
This is the US Marine Corps uh the graduation ring.
I was in the Marine Corps and
nineteen eighty six to about nineteen eight nineteen eighty eight when I got hurt in
training.
And it's been it's probably the most important thing I ever did.
Mm.
And so you were young man, you had an interest in being a marine.
It's genetic, Doug.
All the men in my family fly planes.
Yeah.
We've talked about that.
Yeah, I know we have.
But I didn't know that's what that ring was for.
It was genetic.
I love that.
That's what you do.
You graduate from high school and you you either prepare for an aviation career either in
or out of the service.
Well you follow your interests.
You follow your interests.
And isn't it amazing how many young people's interests are outside of what they thought
they once were?
Yeah.
State it another way.
How how many of us are working in our majors?
Right.
From from from school?
I'm certainly not.
So we're free to change.
I I I think I think free isn't a strong enough word.
I think it's incumbent.
Right on.
Thanks for having.
I really I really did enjoy this.
Thank you.
Don has been a great inspiration to us for a long time.
I'd say that the whole podcast we have is really thankful to Don.
If someone wanted to find Don, how do they find?
I don't know, Don, how would they find you?
Through us?
Through you.
If you're interested in talking with Don, get a get a hold of me.
Get a hold of Keith.
One thing I do want to say to your investors is I am actually a client of the firm.
And I I know an awful lot of financial advisors that kinda hang out hang out in that
circle and I I I have appreciated very much the your views and the way that you guys
handle things and making sure that I'm on the right track to to to be where I'm getting.
So I can't I can't offer a higher endorsement.
Well, that's very kind.
We really appreciate that kindness, Don.
And um we're honored to all of y'all that we've been able to say
And if you're a first time viewer, be sure to go to gimbalfinancial dot com because we
would like to have your business as well.
In the meantime, you guys have a great weekend and we'll see you soon.