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What She Said is a gathering place for women and their stories. Each episode features real conversations about love, friendship, motherhood, reinvention, aging, work, purpose, loss, joy, and everything in between. Host Angie Birky sits down with women from all walks of life to explore the lessons, challenges, and moments that have shaped who they are—and who they’re becoming.
I'm Angie Berkey, and this is what she said, a podcast about the things women talk about when we're finally telling the truth. Let's get into it. Hello. Hello. And welcome back to what she said.
Angie:Today, I am delighted to be back in the studio for the first time in a long time with one of my longest standing and dearest friends, Saundra Smith. Saundra and I used to do some podcasting together back in the day, and it's been a minute, and it just feels really good to be here with you.
Sondra:Definitely. Super nourishing. And to be here in your home Here we are. Surrounded by your energy is just the best place I think we could step back into this arena.
Angie:Oh, that's very sweet. Yeah. It just feels like a full circle moment because I've been so excited that you've been coming to visit. And it just feels really good and synchronistic that we are recording one of the inaugural episodes of what she said together.
Sondra:It does.
Angie:After a few years off the mic. Yeah.
Sondra:I'll never forget how I felt when our first pod launched, and it's it's just a very similar feeling, really anticipation and sending out this beacon, right, into the world. And we really hope that what we've got to share with you today is gonna resonate. I think it is. It's it's a powerful, powerful share for me. So
Angie:Yeah. You know, when I thought about the podcast for what she said and the conversations we're gonna be having here, I wanted to ground us in a handful of pillars of conversations that we would be having with women of all backgrounds and types and ages and all the things. And the four pillars that I feel this show will take the shape of falling under would be relationships of all sorts within our lives, women's health and sexuality, our careers and our finances,
Sondra:and Life transitions.
Angie:Life transitions. And that comes from the idea and concept of the journey of a girl into womanhood through maiden, mother, and crone. And what reaches us along those ways and what we encounter. And I was thinking about this episode particularly with Sandra, and she can tell you a little bit more about herself here in just a second. But this idea of life transition, she and I are both going through some pretty significant life transitions right now, both probably from an age and, like, chronological perspective, but also just within our own internal growth and development that isn't about our external age.
Angie:And I just really felt like it could be a powerful conversation where we could talk a little bit about what our life transitions are looking like these days and just bring light to two different women going through two very different life transitions. But nonetheless, these transitions can hit us at any time. So all of that said, Sandra, why don't you share a little bit more with the audience about you and your background and Sure. Kind of how we landed on this topic.
Sondra:Yeah, I'd be happy to. Yeah, so my name is Saundra Smith and I am 36. I live in Houston, Texas, which is a wonderful place to live and also a challenging place to live, but it's been home for me for about almost fifteen years. So even though I've got a California soul, I am very much And I would love to talk a little bit about my career trajectory because we're gonna touch on some points there. But I had a place in my life where I arrived pretty young, like, at not really understanding what my gifts were and how I would utilize those gifts to have an earning capacity for myself that would it just I had a lot of openness when it came to that.
Sondra:All I knew is I didn't wanna do what my parents did for a living, which is what you do for a living.
Angie:Can't blame you.
Sondra:And I took a career in vocational exploration class. Also, my mother founded a nonprofit grief support group for children because one did not exist in the county where I grew up in Southern California. And so I was exposed very young to group therapy, support groups, helping professionals, and I just didn't realize that there were some dots being connected there for me because I currently serve as the clinical manager of the whole person recovery program at Avenue three sixty Health and Wellness, which is a what's called a federally qualified health clinic. It's essentially a community health clinic. Our mission is to provide high quality and compassionate health care to all, and so we provide health care and behavioral health services, social services to individuals regardless of their capacity to pay, their insurance status, and we address health from a whole person perspective.
Sondra:We address food insecurity as a health care barrier. We address transportation barriers. And for me, I'm a substance use disorder professional, and so we're the only FQHC in Houston that addresses substance use. I've been there for almost ten years, which is certainly the longest job Yeah. I've ever held in my life.
Sondra:And just the mission of the agency and the work just so beautifully aligns with my personal values and my personal vision. But it definitely was very rocky for me to get to that point because substance use professionals are pretty categorically underpaid. Mhmm. The work is very emotionally taxing. We deal with we call them kinda like the occupational hazards of our profession, like compassion fatigue, burnout, sometimes even vicarious trauma from walking alongside folks in some of the most challenging times in their life.
Sondra:But I love my work so much. It's incredibly fulfilling. And I in my academic journey, I got to the point where I have an associate's degree. And I did my best to pursue my bachelor's, but I was in my internship. I was carrying, like, a 50 client caseload, which should never be a thing, by the way.
Angie:Right. That was
Sondra:my employer.
Angie:Overload of other things.
Sondra:Yeah. Absolutely. But, anyway, I just I felt really overwhelmed. And, also, I think, ideologically, I started to feel like the school is so expensive. Like, college is so expensive, and it's expensive.
Sondra:It was never the actual academics that kept me from furthering my my education. It was always something else, either my conflicting career goals or the just the time, effort, and energy in my capacity. And so that's kind of a little bit of my career history, but, personally, I enjoy to do I have lots of various interests at any given time, and many of them I share with you, And I'm sure we'll dive into a few of those. But, yeah, that's that's a little bit about me.
Angie:Yeah. And I think you're hitting on something in terms of the reasons that were holding you back from kind of pursuing and finishing up the bast bachelor's program and, you know, stepping even further into education. I mean, what as you can tell just from listening to Saundra talk, she's highly intelligent, very well spoken, and sounds just like always to me sounds like of the utmost level of education. Right? The highest level of education.
Angie:And you are a lifelong learner. You're an incredibly curious person. And I would never, other than having been a close friend and walking alongside of you in your journey, would just never have realized that you you weren't already credentialed to the highest degree within your profession. And so for you at this time, you have been doing a bit of an inquiry into how you would like to round out your career, where you'd like to go next, and all of that sort of thing.
Sondra:Yeah.
Angie:And so one of the things I wanted to share with the audience here is how you went through the decision making process to step back into education, to pursuing your education, to pursuing your dreams. You've already mentioned that there are certain challenges in terms of being underpaid within the profession already. And then you add on to that that there are probably certain levels that you would like to achieve that might require a particular level of whether it be degree or certification or something. And and I just think having watched you go through this this own personal inquiry and the decision that you have made to step back into school has just been for me, from the outside looking in, it just looked like a real moment of inspiration and then a trust fall with the universe.
Sondra:Mhmm. Totally.
Angie:But as Totally. But as I see, and as we've talked about it a little bit more, there was so much more going on for you Totally. Under the surface that was personal. Mhmm. That was something that you needed to kind of traverse by yourself, at least until the point where you got got to the decision making point and said, I'm gonna make this choice for myself.
Angie:So I'd love for you to share because I know this is part of the homework that you gave me too. But I'd love for you to share a little bit about how you finally came to this decision at this moment in time to step back into the space and say, it's time. It's time for me to close the loop on the things that I know I've wanted to study.
Sondra:Yeah. It it definitely surprised me. And, like, you and I are both very spiritual woman. And, like, for for me, part of the way I know I'm on a spiritual path of alignment is when I find myself doing something that six months ago would have been inconceivable. And that really was very similar to the way this process worked for me.
Sondra:And I think really where it started was where much much, if not all changes seeded from for me, which is a pain. Emotional pain. I was in a painful place. This is very common. Yeah.
Sondra:Yeah. Pain. I have a dear friend that seems pain is the touchstone to change, and it it's very true. And a part of that has to do with like I I mentioned, I alluded to my parents' career earlier, but I was raised by two attorneys. My mother was a civil liabilities attorney, and my father was a contracts lawyer and criminal defense attorney.
Sondra:And my parents were and are brilliant people. My dad was, like, a mental level genius. Not that it look. I really don't put a lot of stake into to, like, traditional conceptualizations of intelligence or learning patterns. I really believe that there is a tremendous amount of systemic problems in our academic Absolutely.
Sondra:In our institutions of academia, and I'd love to be part of of that change. I think we've made a lot of improvement, but an understanding and knowing that, like, I came from brilliance, and it it is, I believe, my birthright to claim for myself even if it's just a dumb piece of paper. That dumb piece of paper is gonna give me in a room Yes. Where I'm gonna be received and I'm gonna have the opportunity to make the impacts I wanna make in the arenas that I'm passionate about. But, yeah, to understand and to see that let's put all of those excuses to the side, and let's say that this is my birthright.
Sondra:What is it gonna take for me to get from point a to point b? Because I still have a lot of fear and a lot of trepidation, especially because I'm I'm financing my school on my own via loans and scholarships, which I'm fortunate to have gotten scholarships. But knowing that I was doing it on my own really motivated me to get very, very clear about this. It it was it's a huge decision. Right?
Sondra:And so, actually, I was listening to a podcast by Brene Brown.
Angie:Our fave.
Sondra:Our fave. And, like, this is actually, I haven't told you this. So do you remember? When I posted the LinkedIn post with our tattoos Yeah. I was totally trying to get her attention.
Sondra:Oh. I was like, Brene, I love you. Can we have, like, a five minute chat that would make my life? She's like my total shero. Yeah.
Sondra:Yeah. The Brene Brown incredible research social worker, and just just leader, vulnerability researcher.
Angie:Have to
Sondra:show you. Yeah. Yeah. Let me yeah. We definitely have to.
Sondra:So these are our tattoos. Our kind of matchy, kind of parallel tattoos here. Yeah. And Brene, I heard her speak at in Houston at the Council on Recovery's luncheon, and she quote quoted Viktor Frankl. And this quote is just it just hit me as such a spiritual, mental, emotional truth Yeah.
Sondra:That between stimulus and response, there is a space and in that space is our power to choose our response and in our response lies our growth and our freedom. And I shared the quote with you Mhmm. And I think we both were like, okay. This is a tool we can use in our relationship and friendship and also a pretty constant reminder Right. Each of us need.
Sondra:And so so that's that's our little Renee detour here. But I heard a researcher named Lisa Leahy, and she did some research with Harvard about why highly motivated people don't achieve their goals. And I am a like, the understanding and the study of and the curiosity surrounding what prompts people to change, first and foremost, me, alright, because I'm a student of myself, like, first and foremost, is one of the great fascinations of my life. And so I'm just gonna I'm just gonna read this, and then I kinda want your initial reaction on it. Okay.
Sondra:So it says the immunity to change framework is a psychological and leadership methodology. It explains why even highly motivated individuals often fail to achieve their personal or professional goals. Instead of viewing resistance to change as a lack of willpower, Keegan and Leahy discovered that our minds function like an immune system. Just as the body's physical immune system protects against foreign invaders, a psychological immune system protects us from deep seated fears and anxieties. When we try to change, this unseen system quietly sabotages our efforts to maintain our psychological comfort zone.
Angie:It's juicy.
Sondra:Yeah.
Angie:And I I mean, I think I've I've understood that on different levels over the last number of years. You know, five to ten years, I think I've gotten a lot more introspective with myself for sure and try to understand at the root why either certain changes are very difficult, why I resist them so much, those types of things. And so when you put me onto the assignment that you put me on last night
Sondra:Yeah.
Angie:I I I was able to see, like, I already kind of knew
Sondra:what the
Angie:outcome was going to be. But what was really interesting for me was to kind of get granular with, like, I know that this might be my biggest fear, but what am I doing to sabotage myself along the
Sondra:way? Right.
Angie:Was so I kinda worked
Sondra:backwards with manifesting Yeah. You know Yeah. In behaviors that are working against. And we're actually gonna go through Angie's immunity map here because this singular tool was the was the tip of the scale for me. I'll use my Libra terminology here.
Sondra:It really was because, when I looked at what I was looking at in this one page map, I was just like, okay. I'm registering tomorrow. Like, I so many of the fears and assumptions that I didn't understand that I was operating under for years had been brought to the light, and then I could work with them differently, and they still exist within me. They're not gone. Just have come into relationship with them differently.
Angie:K.
Sondra:And so we're gonna actually go through that together here. But I guess before we do that, what has been your experience with resistance to change and how do you kind of interpret that in your life experience now?
Angie:That's such a good question. I mean, there are times that I have been dragged kicking and screaming into change. And then there are times where the pain has gotten so great that I can't do anything but drive toward the change that I know will ultimately bring me some relief.
Sondra:I've got to get out of this pain. Yeah. I'm willing to do anything. You know?
Angie:So what I've learned through doing that is that when I resist it, it's going to persist.
Sondra:Mhmm.
Angie:And when I actually just go ahead and do similar to what I called for you a trust fall with the universe
Sondra:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Angie:When I do that, I've not once landed on my face. I've always been held, and I am always happier for it even if it feels scary. So I could be experiencing deep heart palpitations on the way down. But somehow, there's always a bit of a soft landing for me because I'm doing what is the right thing to do. So I'm getting more comfortable with jumping off that cliff.
Sondra:Yeah.
Angie:But it the exhilaration, the fear, it never goes away. No. But I've just learned that resistance is futile. It just is gonna delay Mhmm. And create more pain and probably cause more chaos in my life.
Angie:Yeah. That if I if what I'm really looking for is a different outcome, I have to I have to make that choice.
Sondra:Right. Right.
Angie:So that's kind of what I've learned, I would say, in the last ten years. Yeah. Maybe twelve, but definitely was not part of my frame of reference in my twenties and thirties until much later in my
Sondra:thirties. Yeah. I just I just don't think that we think about these. We're we're so in the hypercapitalism, like, dichotomy of, like, success and failure, and, like, we place ourselves on these rubrics that are just so fall so short of capturing the human experience Right. In any weaning for a more importantly helpful way.
Sondra:And that's what I love about. I need my tools to be extraordinarily simple. Talk to me like I'm 10. Like, when it comes to this kind of stuff, like, because we do need to activate the young parts of ourselves and bring them to the table here. We do need to activate I mean, for me, my rebellious teenager and she needs to come to the table.
Sondra:Like, we all need to come to the my wise woman needs to come to the table. Like Yeah. We're all gonna sit down here and and hash this out. Yeah. And I need Angie and I also love, like, parts work Oh, yeah.
Sondra:Internal family systems, and and that to me is just like what is powerful about this particular you can go as deep as you want to Mhmm. And I've gone deep into this, but you can also do this in fifteen minutes. It can give you some insight and you can make a coffee and go about your day. Yeah. You know?
Sondra:And I I'm I think that's what's great. So do you wanna do should we go through your your immunity map now?
Angie:I think we should. Okay. And as I, like, open this, I think one of the other things that I wanted to share as we talked about how we wanted to approach this episode, when she was sharing with me how the immunity map worked for her, I was immediately thinking about, I may not have had this tool before. I haven't gone through this particular sequence of inquiry. But I think there are so many ways also to get to a similar result and a similar understanding of what's in your way.
Angie:And so you just mentioned parts work.
Sondra:Yeah.
Angie:There's so many different things. I'm part of a spiritual program that helps us take a look at our own woundings, our own inner children, our family system that she was just mentioning maybe not through an IFS framework, but going through that kind of understanding, too. It's like, Okay, what part of me is upset right now? What part of me is needing some sort of comfort? What part of me is criticizing myself?
Angie:What part of me needs to come in and be wise and take over and hold myself and come up with more of a steady state and helpful answer and trajectory for myself? And so it was occurring to me. We were talking about this over dinner last night. And I was like, oh, yeah. So the immunity map works a lot like this program that I give so much of my time and attention to, because it helps keep me sitting in the driver's seat in a more healthy adult way Mhmm.
Angie:As opposed to kind of going back and acting from these parts of me that are a little bit more wounded. And so I thought it was interesting. And what I will say is, like you said, like, this is so simple. I made it complicated last night when you gave me this, and I was just like, I need to look at examples. I don't understand.
Angie:Like and it's not hard.
Sondra:And I was like, no. Just go with the first thought that comes to your awareness. Right.
Angie:But as you go through it, you realize, okay, it really is kind of that simple.
Sondra:What because I this is you mentioned, it's organizing what's already in your awareness, really.
Angie:And it is, but the thing is you're organizing your awareness around something you have resistance to.
Sondra:Totally.
Angie:So if you have resistance to it, it's really hard to put it on paper.
Sondra:Totally. I don't wanna look at that. Yeah. I don't wanna see that.
Angie:Right. So we used I don't even I well, you do know what I was doing it about. So you haven't looked at the paper yet. But just to give the audience an idea, I have been wanting to get what she said off the ground for probably the better part of a year. And there has just been something holding me back.
Angie:That's where my resistance has been lying. So we didn't whatever what she said is going to be in the long term, TBD. Right? But but I knew there would at least be some writing involved and a podcast involved. So my the thing that I wanted to have as my goal is to launch this podcast in June 2026, and that's the goal that I started with.
Angie:And so I'll let you Yeah. So through the rest.
Sondra:So the immunity map starts with a goal, very simple one one sentence goal that, you know, is written in SMART, the acronym specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and time bound. So that that applies for Angie's goal here of launching what she said. And you're actually, I'm making progress towards it literally as we speak,
Angie:which is pretty cool.
Sondra:June 2026 as we
Angie:are recording this.
Sondra:Yeah. So actions to achieve your goal. So this is where we break down the goal into some more some smaller, you know, objectives that'll be achieved on the way there. So what did you put for that?
Angie:I went with really, like, basic things. I didn't I wasn't, like, going into, like, the the emotional thought process. Was like, I need to get the equipment. Yep. I need to map out my topics and guests.
Angie:I need to record and edit, and I need to release Yep. These episodes. Right? So I was just making it very basic.
Sondra:And when most people, goal goal set or do this kind of work surrounding behavior changes they'd like to put in place, these two parts are typically as far as anyone will go. What's the goal and what's the objectives? K. And that's what's so powerful about this tool and this research is Lisa Lacey, he says that is not sufficient. And for some people, it may be, but for a lot of people, we have to do an examination of what else is happening here.
Sondra:And so the next column that we have is behaviors that work against your goal. Mhmm. And this can be directly or indirectly. Okay. And so what did you now I see there's a bunch of red squiggles here.
Angie:Well, what I realized
Sondra:And you know I'm gonna ask about that.
Angie:You are. You are. Good. I wrote all of this thing down in one paragraph, and then she had told me that I have to come up with three or four behaviors. And I realized I put them all in one pet in one paragraph.
Angie:So then I broke
Sondra:them out. This is just formatting.
Angie:This is just formatting. Accept it. The first is procrastination, and I am a master procrastinator when I am resisting something
Sondra:Mhmm.
Angie:For sure. So procrastination is one. Not carving out time to do it. So basically, filling my time with other things. Yeah.
Angie:Telling myself that I'm too busy.
Sondra:Mhmm. I'm glad you got into kind of the self talk of it all. Mhmm. Mhmm. Because that's really important.
Angie:Yeah. And then this last one kind of hit me over the head because I think one of the biggest things is I'm waiting for this to feel perfectly curated and ready to be to be out there because I well, we'll get into the rest
Sondra:of Yeah. We'll get into I'll stop. Get into that, please. But I def I smile because, like, I know you so well, and I know this is this is tied to some other things for you. Right?
Sondra:We're We're gonna gonna
Angie:uncover those in a sec.
Sondra:Yeah. Okay. So now we're gonna get to the worry box. So the worry box is designed for you to just dump the first and the strongest worry that you have into the worry box. So what did you put in there?
Angie:My worry, my fear is that this won't be a successful venture.
Sondra:Okay. Yeah.
Angie:And what does that I mean, what does that even mean? But
Sondra:We're gonna get there. We're definitely gonna we're gonna circle back. And so this is where I feel that this map, which, you know, we'll put in the link, I'm sure of, we can put this in the link of the podcast episode so the listener can read along as they like. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sondra:One of the things that I think is really powerful about this map is the next two sections. These were the ones that really smacked me in my face. And the first one is hidden competing commitments. So this is when you really start to get into understanding your immune system to change. Because so often, we have competing commitments with ourselves, with others that are actually working against achieving our goal, and they may have value in our lives, they may not, but they're not commitments that we're actively thinking about.
Sondra:So what are the competing hidden competing commitments that you identified?
Angie:Yeah. So when I was thinking about this, I was really relating it back to the behaviors in the previous column. And I was basically thinking, what am I doing to sabotage myself? And so, well, over here, said not carving out time for the podcast. Well, not only was I not carving out time for it, but I would fill it with other things.
Angie:So I would fill it with work. I'd fill it with social obligations. I'd fill it with excuses. So that was, that's one of the bigger pieces, I think. Another one that I recognized a little bit, I think I might have added this one this morning.
Angie:I came back and these three things were added this morning. Okay. So this one was that I get myself lost in analysis paralysis. And I just keep researching and keep researching. And like, how do I do this?
Angie:And how do I do that? And whether it's the logistics of things, or whether it's the topics, or whether I'm just like, I'm not quite honed in enough yet, and I don't quite you know, so I just keep myself stuck in a loop of, okay, but, like, that's where the perfection piece is, like, coming from. Totally, I'm feeding my perfection beast by doing that.
Sondra:Yeah. And I think the tricky thing about the love that analysis paralysis, by the way. I don't know if that's been in my nomenclature, but I'm stealing it. I think that the thing for me about analysis paralysis is I can, like, trick myself into believing I'm doing the thing. Absolutely.
Angie:I think I'm making
Sondra:progress. Right. Right. But there isn't anything, you know, that is actually manifesting outside of myself that would show that. Mhmm.
Sondra:Right? Mhmm. And that's why it's so important that this be a SMART goal, that we can measure, you know, this. Even in in if it's in a measurable way that's completely internally with you or maybe with one accountability person, you have to be able to do that. Yeah.
Sondra:Okay. So this is where it's gonna really get juicy. We're gonna talk about the essentially, the stories that Angie's been operating under that have been contributing to her not reaching her goal. This is what Lisa Lahey calls the big assumptions. You know, I'm a I'm a big for agreements gal, like I think a lot about the assumptions that I make in my life, but she calls these big assumptions, which I find interesting because they're big because they have impact.
Angie:Yeah.
Sondra:Even though we may not even be aware of them till we do this exercise or we may be very aware of them, they have they have impact. And so what are the big assumptions that you are operating under in your immunity to change?
Angie:So one the first one, I was just like, this project to me, whatever what she said is going to become, it just it's like the work of my heart. Right? It's just it's such a big deal to me. And I don't know how to make it appear to the external world as big as it feels to me in my internal world. Right?
Angie:So it's like, this is the biggest thing that I'm passionate about. And to put it out there but not know how to reach the audience that I wanna reach or whatever, it just feels like failure is waiting to happen.
Sondra:Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah.
Angie:So that was the first one. And so because of that, then if I don't put it out there, then I can't fail.
Sondra:Yeah. Yeah. You're in that Yeah. Liminal, like, well, if it's not out there yet and technically
Angie:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think this one kind of still, again, ties back to that myth of perfection. Like, I feel like I need all the answers and a perfect road map before I can even start.
Angie:So I need I need to know where what she said is gonna be in five years before I can day take a step on day one. Mhmm. Which obviously Not realistic. Not realistic. Yeah.
Angie:And then the last one kinda hit me over the head this morning. This is a 5AM thought that if I go for it and I give it all that I've got, I might find out that my voice doesn't actually matter.
Sondra:Oh. Wow. That's that's a oh. Yeah. We're gonna dive into teary just now.
Sondra:Yeah. Wow. I mean, that hit me like a ton of bricks Yeah. Right there, obviously, because I love you, and there is no world in which your voice would not matter to me. What I think I'm hearing is you believe that you have impactful messages for women, and you want to reach them, we're we're gonna dive into this.
Sondra:We're gonna let we're gonna take a moment. And if I have my sound bowl, we can clear the air on that, but I don't. So everybody imagine a sound bowl because what I'd actually like to do is just put my counselor hat on for a second
Angie:Okay.
Sondra:And talk about because, really, what this tool is designed to be is a starting place, not necessarily a finishing line. Because what you would do then with this information is you would work with a therapist or work with a coach or, you know, work with somebody to to really question these big assumptions and also work with our competing commitments. Right? So, like, for example, when I when I did mine about going to college, my worry box was, this will be a bad financial investment because it will not bring my earning capacity to the level that will be worth the investment. And I moved into the big assumption of, like, I'm actually afraid of being scammed.
Sondra:Like, I'm afraid that I'm gonna be taken for a ride here. But what's even deeper beneath that is the impostor syndrome of, like, am I worth this? Mhmm. Is this really my birthright? Questioning those really basic questions that come to play so powerfully when we begin to yearn for something.
Sondra:Yes. When we wanna put a media company out in the world that's based deeply in our values. And what I'm wondering is if you you you kind of drew this line here between the perfectionism and the analysis paralysis, What do you think you can do now that you are seeing this? What do you think you might recognize in your own self talk differently now that you've been able to see it here on the map?
Angie:Yeah. So, like, in my nomenclature and work that I do on myself, I would say that I'm hearing very much my critical inner parent kind of coming up for me with those things.
Sondra:Sure.
Angie:And I can say that if I can ground myself into the loving presence of a parent that would never want to talk to me in a way that is putting limiting beliefs in my head, right, that that that that loving parent would say, perfection, there is no such thing. Right. You have a heart for something that can't ever be wrong. Right? And so all you can do is take the step that feels right for you
Sondra:Mhmm.
Angie:And have faith that there's a reason that you're passionate about it Yeah. And that that's gonna continue to support you. Right? So, like, it's about understanding the voice that's in my head when those things are happening, and then having kind of an an a family meeting with my pieces and parts Yeah. To say, like, okay.
Angie:How how is each part contributing to these stories? Mhmm. And then how does my wise woman get back in the seat and say, Got it.
Sondra:I got all of you. We've you. We've heard you. You've you've been heard and seen.
Angie:And we appreciate how you've protected us in the past. Right. And we're doing it a new way. Yeah. You know?
Angie:That sort of thing.
Sondra:Yeah. So, obviously, like, this this last point, when I think about times in my life when I have felt my voice didn't matter, because we don't live in a society or a paradigm that frequently values women's voices, that often tells us we're not the experts on our own lives, that, you know, legislative bodies and all sorts of different institutions know better about our own bodies than we do. These are these are the subtle messages that we receive. And so to to attack that, like, this is really what's happening here. We go from, I wanna watch this podcast and I've been struggling with it, to I have a real fear about my worth.
Angie:Yeah. Yeah?
Sondra:Do you see how like, it's incredible in one page how we can get from there to there. And then what we do with this information is, like I said, we work with somebody who can challenge these big assumptions.
Angie:Yeah. You I have to take this with me to therapy on Tuesday. Yeah. I gotta take it. Dee's gonna look at it with me and she's gonna.
Angie:Awesome. You know?
Sondra:Yeah. And that's exactly what you can do with this as a tool. And she will help you Right. Challenge these big assumptions and bring them closer into to out of the fear and the woundedness and into something that feels more true. Yeah.
Sondra:And we can actively refute these assumptions. Sure. I find a lot of comfort in in doing that sometimes.
Angie:Yeah.
Sondra:We need to do it out loud. We need to do it mirror work. We need to do it Right. In self talk. But, yeah, this is an it has so good to go through this with you, babe.
Sondra:How are you feeling after finishing this?
Angie:Oh, I feel good. I mean, I feel like these things because of the work that I do try to do on myself regularly. These things have been dancing at the edge of my awareness, but I haven't put it in words in black and white, like or red and white as a word. But I I kind of knew, but kind of getting to this one this morning was just like kind of a gut punch for me. Yeah.
Angie:And so obviously, I'm taking the steps and I'm not gonna allow these limiting beliefs continue to hold me back. And I I feel good about that for me and my trajectory. I kind of wanna go back to you, though, because Yeah. Obviously, you went through this Mhmm. Worksheet for yourself when you were making this decision, and you did sign up.
Angie:Yeah. And so what I think also is really powerful is to be able to claim then further kind of that idea of your birthright. So I'd love for you to share with listeners what you are doing. What are you what are you doing in school?
Sondra:Where
Angie:are you taking it? What's I know there's multiple steps here. So I would love for you to kind of pronounce what your intention for yourself is and what
Sondra:your money. Gosh. I will definitely do that because I'm a get there.
Angie:Yeah. Oh, I have no doubt.
Sondra:Come hell or high water.
Angie:No doubt.
Sondra:We have both of those things in Texas. Okay. So what my immunity map, it it's up taped up to my desk in my office every day. So I look at it every day. I do this exercise with my staff.
Sondra:One of the things that I uncovered is that I had really gotten comfortable in a place of diminished potential, that that was had become content for me. And I had always strove to have professional develop and, like, I have achieved so many of the career goals I wanted to achieve. I wanted more than anything to be a clinical manager because there's an internship process in my licensure, and so few counselors get really supportive, comprehensive supervision. I didn't. I got horrible supervision at a horrible treatment facility where I worked.
Sondra:And so, like, I just wanted to be part of being the change of a lot of the hard things that I had to go through. Mhmm. But I also have had to release the fact that I can't protect my interns from all of the hard things, especially with our work. It's it's just difficult in nature. Yeah.
Sondra:It is. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that I I I reached that goal. I've served on many boards, some of them for a very long time, even longer than I've been at my current employer.
Sondra:I I went and got additional credentials. I'm a a certified drug and alcohol counselor, so that's a higher level of certification. I've done a ton of CEUs. A ton. I always do, like, at least double what's required of my license just following my curiosities.
Sondra:I've been licensed in domestic violence counseling, nonviolent crisis intervention. I do trainings on preventing client abuse and neglect and exploitation, so I've done that. I also serve as the president-elect of my professional association in the Houston chapter. And so, like, I always felt driven to, but it was like the one final domino. I was like, nope.
Sondra:I'm not doing that.
Angie:Mhmm.
Sondra:And my intern, who I'm sure will listen to this, she was like, you're going to go back to school. And I was like, no, I'm not. It's not happening. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna put myself in the debt.
Sondra:I'm not gonna bum bum bum. And quite literally overnight after doing this worksheet, I I saw a path come forward. And I also remember there was a moment I was going on a walk. We have a lot of bayous in Houston. And I remember sending a voice memo to one of our few mutual friends and just becoming so emotional about the path before me because I think it's gonna allow me to it just have a a different level of wholeness in my life and bring a lot of my passions forward.
Sondra:So I might one of my mentors currently is she has a licensure called CSAT, which is a certified sex addiction therapist.
Angie:Okay.
Sondra:And so that's really interesting for me, but I also just want to do pure couples counseling work. So I'm gonna pursue my LMFT license, which is a licensed marriage and family therapist. But I'm looking specifically at schools that are very progressive and forward thinking, so I won't be going to the Christian universities. I love my Christians, but, yeah, this is not not where I will be getting my education. So I plan on getting additional certifications in dexology and really also doing a lot of IFS work.
Sondra:I would love to be IFS trained. And also doing addictions work with families, which, like, I deeply believe that addiction is a family disease. I think that it's a disease that really deeply affects the most basic bonds that we require for our humanity with spirituality, with with self, and with others. And I just would love to be able to do some more family work. I too am part of a worldwide fellowship, of spiritual action in in my own personal recovery work, and I'm just really excited to be able to step into these arenas and build a practice that is so safe and so inclusive and just such a place where people can come and experience themselves and experience their relationships differently.
Sondra:Yeah. And I just have a vision for that.
Angie:I chose because I know just from having the benefit of having you in my corner Yeah. These last years that the world needs more of you Yeah. And the people suffering in the world need more of you. And I just I've seen the work you've already been able to do in the lives of your own clients and your interns. Think about their growth trajectories and how proud you are of where they've gone.
Angie:And just always in my mind, I'm thinking, well, you're part of that pathway that's uplifting them. You are part of the sisterhood of women who wants to help bring others up with you and bring people into the fold
Sondra:I can't
Angie:of love and acceptance and kindness, but also lifting them up and showing people what they're capable of.
Sondra:Yeah.
Angie:And so I just think that what you are going to do and the work you want to do in this world is divinely ordained. And I just can't wait to see you shine in all of it like you already do because you are already doing this work
Sondra:Mhmm.
Angie:With people and alongside of people all the time. But I just I just get really juiced up and excited when I think about where you're going.
Sondra:Well, let me tell you. I'm really juiced up and excited about what she said. It is an evolution of a lot for us, and it also is its own completely new venture, new space. And I'm just like, I've had such bummy feelings because I've been like, I wanna do more for what she said because all caught up in my in my school and work, but I will. I've already got a great idea.
Sondra:I won't I'll I'll just, like, I'll just tease you with that.
Angie:You will be a regular part of this of this show and of, on the whole, whatever this organization is going to turn out to be because we are meant to do the work together of sisterhood and empowerment of ourselves and of others, and we're just bringing different gifts to it.
Sondra:It's what we do, it's who we be. That's You know?
Angie:Absolutely right.
Sondra:I wanted to just share that what you've written already and put out already is just incredible. If if those of you listening have not read the substack, it's got some awesome, awesome writings from some incredible women, not just me and Angie, but some other ladies that we are in dearly love and are insisting. And if you're listening, you know who you are. We love you. I I think a lot about my sister and I talk about the paradox of I I can't think of another time in which I would wanna live as a woman for a lot of reasons, and yet I there there is, you know, an undermining of our rights, a silencing of our voices happening now, and I truly believe that liberated women, whatever that liberation looks like for you, because I believe we're all on a journey of liberation, I'm not talking necessarily even about, you know, a traditional feminist liberation.
Sondra:Liberation looks different for each one of us and means different things for each one of us. So but our voices matter more now than they ever have, I think, because it's just we cannot take for granted anything, anything anymore. Mhmm. And we will continue to thrive and continue to overcome the way we always have, which is on reliance on each other and believing in each other and supporting one another.
Angie:Yes.
Sondra:And I believe in you. I am so in your corner.
Angie:I in you in equal measure
Sondra:and same. Right? Yeah.
Angie:And it's because we have each other and we have other women in our lives that some of them we share in common and then others we don't. But, like, that that network of women and of sisters in our lives is what helps each of us understand that we do deserve to put our best out there and to go for the things that feel internally motivated for each of us. Right? And that's going to hit all these different areas of the world different careers and all of that sort of thing. But the more women who are conscious of their impact and what that can look like to the generation that's coming up now and the generations that are coming up now, it just gives me a lot of hope.
Angie:And Yeah. Me too. Feel like a lot of promise exists even even if sometimes we don't feel it right now. A lot of times Yeah. We don't feel it right
Sondra:Thanks for doing this this brave work with me, babe.
Angie:Well, thanks for bringing me into it. I'm really it was really great and really apropos for the conversation we wanted to have today. Anyway, so thank you for being here. Thank you for coming to visit me.
Sondra:My And
Angie:for spending the last four days with me.
Sondra:They have been just day after day of of delight. Delight. We've had a fantastic time together. We really love. Even though I'm leaving today, I can't wait until I come back.
Sondra:So
Angie:And it will be. Yeah. Soon enough.
Sondra:Mhmm.
Angie:Well, thank you so much, and thank you all for listening. Thank you for tuning into What She Said, and we will be back really soon. Thanks for listening. If today's conversation stayed with you, share it with someone you love or leave us a review. And if it sparked a story of your own, I'd love to hear from you.
Angie:I'll see you next time on What She Said.