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What if your company culture wasn’t just an HR buzzword but the secret weapon to scaling your business?
Welcome to Kan Talk Kulture, the podcast that dives deep into how remarkable company cultures are intentionally built and how they can transform your team, your business, and your bottom line.
Hosted by Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture and a passionate expert in people, culture, and leadership, this show is designed for business owners, CEOs, HR professionals, and anyone who believes that empowered people are the key to long-term success.
Each episode features real conversations with inspiring CEOs, business leaders, and culture champions who share how they’ve shaped their team environments alongside case studies, practical tips, and bold questions that challenge the status quo.
Whether you're looking to boost employee engagement, create a high-performance team, or align your people with your vision, this podcast will help you connect the dots between culture and growth.
At Kan Kulture, we believe in Kindness, Understanding, Learning, Trust, Uniqueness, Respect, and Evolving, and this podcast brings those values to life.
If you're ready to turn your team into your biggest brand ambassadors and create a workplace people love, this is the podcast for you.
Find out more at www.kankulture.com
Hi, I'm Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture and welcome to Kan Talk Kulture. In this podcast, I sit down with some of Australia's most progressive founders and CEOs to explore the heart of their company cultures. What drives them, what they value, and what it's really like to work for the companies they lead.
You'll also find occasional episodes packed with practical HR insights to help you build safer, stronger, and more trusted workplaces. So whether you're a new team maba, getting to know your workplace, curious about creating remarkable company cultures. Or just wanting to know more about implementing HR best practice.
You are in the right place. Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome to the Kan Talk Kulture podcast. I'm Kylie Neal, your host, and joining me today is Georgina Walker, who is a people and culture consultant at Kan Kulture. Welcome Georgina.
Thanks Kylie. Thank you for having me.
Welcome back. So today we are talking about psychosocial risk and specifically the risk that scale ups don't see coming.
So obviously with a scale up, you are in growth mode, your building company, your building product, your building team, whatever it might be, you, your focus is to scale up. Where I think scale up organizations that are in excessive growth can get unstuck, is not understanding what the psychosocial risks are and what their obligations are.
So psychosocial safety has actually been part of safety legislation since 2011. But on the 1st of April, 2023, there was a, uh. Let's call it a new phase of what obligations were for businesses and overall, what the new legislation is saying is that businesses have a requirement to identify and manage risk of a psychological nature through the psychosocial hazards just as much as they do through the physical hazards in a workplace,
right?
So. Physical safety, in my view, is a lot of, uh. Tangible injuries that you can actually physically see.
Mm.
There's a cord on the floor. Let's put it away. Because that's a
trip hazard.
It's a trip hazard. That's a risk. Mm-hmm. We can fill out a risk register, we can write an incident report if someone trips over that cord.
Um, and we can go through the workplace and really assess and address anything that's physical in nature, because we can see it.
Mm. The visible. The visible stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. What happens when we look at psychosocial hazards and risks makes it less tangible and a lot more difficult for businesses to manage.
Mm,
psychosocial risks don't need to be an incident. It is about the steps that the organization takes to prevent the incidences from occurring. So that's what makes it really tricky.
Mm-hmm.
When we look at what. Psychosocial hazards are, they include things like job demands, uh, low job control, poor support, lack of clarity, poor organizational change management, inadequate reward and recognition, poor organizational justice, traumatic events or material remote or isolated work.
It's a very interesting one.
Goodness,
poor physical environment, violence and aggression, bullying, harassment, uh, conflict or poor workplace relationships and interactions.
The list goes on.
There is so much in that, and as HR professionals, we see these types of incidences. Every day. Mm-hmm. Every day we have conversations of people not being, not having clarity on their role, people being feel like they're under pressure because they have too many responsibilities put on them.
Um, remote workers. What did COVID do to that? Like there's so many workers who are remote these days in comparison to what they used to be the bullying, harassment, um. Violence and aggression. Those types of workplace behaviors have, uh, been part of policy for a very, very long time. So we know that makes sense from a work perspective.
But when we look, we, we bring it back to companies that are scaling up job demands, poor support in a company that's scaling that may be a small business. Support looks very different to an organization that has thousands of employees with many, many foundational teams and support mechanisms around to, uh, scaffold each and every team member.
When you work in a small organization or an organization that's focusing on growth. You often don't get the level of support that you perhaps require. Mm. Some people work well in those environments and some don't. But from a psychosocial risk profile, scale ups are very exposed to a lot of these psychosocial hazards.
Mm.
So how can we educate? Founders or business owners or team leaders to pay attention of what their responsibilities are with these psychosocial risks. How can we help them understand what their obligations are? You know, Mo most businesses that we work with, one thing is for certain is that they deeply care about their team.
Mm.
So it's not about. Bad leadership, it's about growth outpacing structure, and legally intent doesn't remove responsibility, unfortunately. So if the way work is designed creates risk, that risk still needs to be managed.
Mm-hmm. So when people hear the term a psychological risk, they quite often think of, you know.
Bullying your harassment or extreme situations. But in reality, um, and especially in those scale ups, it's much quieter.
Mm.
Um, it's the high workloads that never settle. It's the role that keeps, you know, evolving, um, without being reset. Mm. It's managers trying to support everyone and all the demands, um, and.
The hard thing is that it's not malicious at all. Um, everyone is well intentioned and everyone is doing their best, but in, in high pressure, this, this accumulates. Um, and when it's not named, it shows up later in ways that leaders didn't see. Um, so, you know, people going on stress leave or random resignations mm-hmm.
Um, and things like that when it's already too late. Mm mm.
Often the resignations, the disengagement, those types of things. If they come out of nowhere, it's a surprise.
Mm. And it's too late.
And it's too late. And it's a surprise, again, it comes back to, it's not necessarily because there's bad leadership, it's because the focus of the organization is on growth.
Mm.
Is on product.
Mm.
Um, instead of focus. Being laid on the compliance and the, uh, psychosocial safety of the team. There are some, uh, very clear risk factors that apply directly to scale up. I think one that you mentioned is the sustained workload. Pressure companies are agile these days. Mm. Um, you know, companies work in sprints and sprint mode.
Often becomes business as usual. Uh, and that time of sprint, and then the actual definition of a sprint is that you sprint. Mm, and then you stop and pause, and then you reevaluate, and then you sprint again. Whereas when sprint becomes the norm, it's going from one sprint to the next sprint, to the next sprint.
Mm. Um, and suddenly any opportunity to recover disappears. So that's a big risk for scales. So, and even if people are performing, that risk still exists because the law looks at exposure to risk, not just the outcomes. So again, an incident doesn't have to have occurred for psychosocial risk to be evident within a workplace.
Another one is, uh, role ambiguity. So when people don't have clarity. About what they're accountable for, about what the dec, who makes decisions in the organization for what or what success looks like. Those types of things increase stress.
Mm-hmm.
And in scale-UPS roles can change so quickly.
Yeah.
And there is the expectation that.
You jump in and you do what's required to get the job done for wearing
multiple hats.
Multiple hats. Yeah. Um, and it's really difficult for organizations to establish clarity when it is so when it shifts all the time,
which is the nature of a startup and scale up, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, poor support for managers is another recognized SoCo, social hazards, and I think in scale-ups in particular because of the pace of them and when they're in growth.
They can put people who have maybe joined the organization because they have a particular area of product expertise, and then suddenly they're building a team underneath them. Mm. Uh, because they need more, um, more resources under that particular expertise. But what they don't equip first time managers with is support to be able to.
Manage, have emotional intelligence, have the training required to actually lead a team. Those, um, and I really dislike the term, but like the, the softer skills of being a people manager. And there's also in the psychosocial risks organizational design, which when everything flows through one or two leads.
Leaders. Mm. You know, there's delays, uncertainty, and pressure that just like ripples across the business.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so regulators are increasingly clear that these are work design issues, not just operational or growing pains.
Mm-hmm.
So being able to look, if we, if we talk about how do we. Mitigate risks.
How would we as HR professionals speak to a scale up when we're like, you've got a psychosocial risk, risk through your organizational design? They would go,
huh,
huh. And fair enough.
Yeah.
You know, before, um, 2023, even though the psychosocial hazards were part of safety legislation, I think everyone would've gone.
Huh
mm Not, not even, you know, your startups and scale ups, even your larger organizations still have a big question mark around this stuff.
Yes. '
cause it is still. Pretty new in the grand scheme of things.
Mm mm
Yeah. So there's no, no doubt that there, there would be question marks for everyone.
Question marks for everyone.
And over the last couple of years, I know from a Kan Kulture perspective, so, uh, legislation change, I think it was 1st of April, 2023. Um, companies that are scaling up. The main message here is that they need to pay attention to what psychosocial hazards they have within their workplace. There's a requirement for businesses to manage risk, to understand and identify risk, and also to mitigate risk by putting.
Whatever controls they can in their business. Mm-hmm. The way that we would support that is to ensure that employees are trained in the right areas. You know, with bullying, harassment, discrimination. They're trained on policies that, uh, if someone, uh. Has, uh, a new resource that's required that they scope the role out so that there's job clarity instead of just like, oh yeah, we're just looking for someone who's got good admin skills and will put 'em in an admin role.
Mm-hmm. Um, roles need to be really scoped out. The organizational structure needs to be. Updated and shared with the whole team. It needs to be somewhere that's really accessible. Mm-hmm. Um, the team needs to be, uh, brought on the journey of strategic direction, for example, so that there's not that ambiguity.
If the company works in sprints, the sprints need to be very clear, and then there needs to be that allowance for recovery and recuperation.
Mm-hmm.
From businesses also to mitigate their psychosocial hazards and risks. Um, EAP just doesn't cut it anymore from a wellness perspective, so being able to be in tune with what the requirements are for their employees to make sure that they are sustainably managing the wellbeing of their employees.
Um, it's not just about having a counselor.
Mm,
available to them. It, it's much broader than that. Um, you know, it might be, uh, financial health or, you know, light legal representation or what it, whatever it looks like, you know, the offerings are so many offering these days. Mm. But, um, and it might be, you know.
You know, Joe's been in the office for 10 hours every day for the last week. Okay. Well, we need to have a work word with Joe to make sure that she's not overburdening herself with work and that she's not burning herself out.
Mm. And, you know, keeping an eye out and, and in reality, and employees not going to say to you.
You know, I'm experiencing a psychosocial risk. They're, they're going to be saying things like, I'm, I'm tired all the time.
Yes.
Um, so, or, or I dunno what's expected of me. Yes. Because their, their role is changing all the time.
Mm-hmm.
So first time managers do feel this very deeply as well. You kind of touched on before.
Mm.
But they're trying to do the right thing by their team. Still delivering in their role, still learning, and they're absorbing all the emotional labor that they were never actually trained for.
Mm.
Um, and founders and new business owners, sorry, feel it as well, they, they become the, the pressure point for the team.
Yes.
Um, and teams don't want to add to their load, so they might hold things back and not express how they're really feeling or Mm. You know, if the rest of the, the team is go, go, go, they feel like they have to kind of. Be on that same bandwagon. Um, and founders especially, they, they want growth, so they just push themselves to the limit.
Yes.
Yeah. And I think it sets a bit of a tone for the team.
Yes.
So just pausing and having a think about that as well.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, from a regulator's perspective, the regulators aren't asking a question of did someone complain?
Mm-hmm.
They're asking what systems were in place, how were workloads managed, how were managers supported, and that's a shift that scale ups need to be really aware of.
Um, it comes back to what we were talking about in the last episode of don't wait to engage HR because these are some things that are, they're, they're the, the. Risks can be proactively mitigated. There can be proactive action from an organization if they just understand what they need.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, founders and business owners and leaders don't necessarily understand what they need.
No.
Whereas we can quite easily put things in place so that they are compliant, so that they are meeting the regu, they are meeting the compliance standards of psychosocial.
And we're not there to, you know, put red tape around the organization and, and slow down the growth of that business. But it's more about helping founders understand where the, the pressure sits.
Um, helping them understand that they need to check in regularly with their team, make sure everyone has their role, clarify their role, um, and make sure that the managers aren't taking all the load.
Yes, the responsibility. I think the, the, the psychosocial factors has been a bit of a big deal for organizations over the last couple of years, but I actually feel going forward, the legislation is going to keep changing in this area.
Hmm.
It's, they're not only like really intangible. I remember when the, the, when the psychosocial hazards at those 14 items were first introduced and everyone was like, how do we actually accommodate for these? Mm. Um, and the advice from, uh, a couple of lawyers that I spoke to at the time was always, they've changed the legislation, but we need to wait for some case law.
To see what kind of cases are coming up to the courts. Mm-hmm. And you know, what, what kind of complaints are being, um, raised to Safe Work Australia. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, that's when these, uh, 14 points going to be formed more, and we'll be able to get more. Guidance from a regulatory perspective as to how we adhere to them.
So it is a bit of a journey. I think, you know, businesses can do the best that they can do. Um, even for us, with the knowledge that we have, you know, we can absolutely make sure that the right compliance mechanisms are put in place and that they are addressing psychosocial. But I think this is, this is an area that's gonna be changing for many years to come.
Yes, I think so too.
Yeah. Yeah.
Constant,
constant. So if you are a scale up business owner or leader, or, uh, you have a, a, a friend that is a founder or a business owner. Please caution them about the importance of focusing on psychosocial hazards within their workplace. Um, you know, let them know that it is that proactive steps that they need to address before an actual incidents occurs, because that's what the regulators care about.
That's what the legislation cares about, so reach out to Kan Kulture. You can email us at hello@canculture.com and we can, uh, discuss it further and we're happy to help. Thank you for joining me, Georgina.
Thanks Kylie.
Thank
you. Next time.
See you next time. Thanks for joining me on Kan Talk Kulture. I'm Kylie Anne Neal.
I hope today's episode gave you a clear review into the values driving your workplace. All sparked new ideas about building a remarkable company culture. If you're a founder or CEO interested in sharing your culture story, or if you are looking to build a safer, stronger, and more trusted workplace, let's connect.
Visit Kan Kulture.com. That's K-A-N-K-U-L-T-U-R e.com. To learn more, please hit that subscribe button to hear more real conversations with founders and CEOs and hands-on episodes full of people. First culture advice. I look forward to connecting with you on our next episode.