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Talking all things horticulture, ecology, and design.
00:00:06:07 - 00:00:27:00
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Christine Roth, horticulture educator with University of Illinois Extension coming at you from McComb, Illinois. And we have got a great show for you today. Ken and I, we are going to be like fan boys here. We're going to be talking with Dr. Andy Davis, who is research scientist down in University of Georgia.
00:00:27:00 - 00:00:47:10
Speaker 1
So I'm kind of mumbling over my words because I'm very excited to have him on the show today. And, you know, I'm not doing this by myself because if I was doing this by myself, I would be sweating, shaking in my booth. So I have to have horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Ken, I made it to the show on my own.
00:00:47:10 - 00:00:49:03
Speaker 1
Thank goodness you showed up.
00:00:49:05 - 00:00:50:16
Speaker 3
Good job. It was. It was perfect.
00:00:50:17 - 00:01:05:02
Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Well, before we get to the topic at hand, we have to a delve into cicada. Watch 2024. How are things going down in Jacksonville? Any cicadas?
00:01:05:04 - 00:01:30:01
Speaker 3
It's going amazing. So last Wednesday was at the 15th or no eighth. We had our first cicadas coming out and kind of a trickle. Over the last couple of days, we're seeing more and more. I think the the cattiness and stuff is maybe slowing down a little bit. I did hear a few singing on over the weekend. We've got kind of a butterfly cage pop up thing.
00:01:30:03 - 00:01:37:22
Speaker 3
We probably got 20, 30 adults in and they're singing in our house every once in a while. So it's going to get loud soon.
00:01:37:24 - 00:01:52:15
Speaker 1
Well, then I can. You also did text me a picture of how you have also not only been enjoying their singing, but also been enjoying flavor. Am I spilling too much here? So do you want to reveal that maybe next week when we talk about them?
00:01:52:19 - 00:01:55:17
Speaker 3
I have tried some. We will save that for next week. We'll be.
00:01:55:18 - 00:01:56:05
Speaker 1
Seeing you.
00:01:56:11 - 00:01:58:02
Speaker 3
In the eating show.
00:01:58:04 - 00:02:21:17
Speaker 1
That's right. Yes. The incredible edible cicada. So we will talk about that next week teaser alert here. I also want to put out a plug. A colleague of ours, Brody Dunn, he has started his own podcast. You might recognize his name. He's been on the show before. He's doing the The Bee Hotel study right now. That's his last show that he did with us.
00:02:21:19 - 00:02:40:18
Speaker 1
But he has started his own podcast called Voice of the Wild, where he takes recordings from the Macaulay Library and he plays those and he just sort of explains what this is. Mostly, it's been birdsong. And so he just talks about specific birds. And so if you want to, we'll leave a link down to Brody's podcast in the show notes below.
00:02:40:20 - 00:03:02:13
Speaker 1
It's delightful. Each episode's about it's short, about 2 minutes long, so it's just a fun little way to relax and unwind. Listening to nature sounds. Well, Ken, are we ready to get to the topic at hand? I feel like we need a drumroll or something. Maybe I can add that in post, but I don't know how, so I'll figure it out.
00:03:02:22 - 00:03:19:17
Speaker 1
right. Well, we have to introduce our special guest for today. We are joined by Dr. Andy Davis down in the wonderful warm state of Georgia. I've been there several times and enjoyed each time. And so, Dr. Davis.
00:03:19:21 - 00:03:20:08
Speaker 2
Go doh.
00:03:20:08 - 00:03:33:18
Speaker 1
Dogs. Yes. I have no allegiance to any schools. It is a line I folks just pay my paycheck so. But, Andy, welcome to the show. We are so happy to have you here today.
00:03:33:22 - 00:03:51:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, thanks for having me. Folks, this is it's always great to get to talk to people about monarchs. One of my favorite topics, and it's always great to be able to get into like a podcast like this, to be able to reach more people. That's kind of my thing these days, is trying to reach people with the science.
00:03:52:00 - 00:04:10:24
Speaker 1
Well, you and you've done you're doing a lot of this work, and I think we're going to dive into this topic and we'll try to hit this a couple of times throughout the show. I first stumbled on you can actually said you need to check out this Facebook page, the thoughtful Monarch. And again, we'll make sure that we're linking to the stuff in the show.
00:04:11:01 - 00:04:15:09
Speaker 1
But yeah, the thoughtful monarch is this really active Facebook page that you manage.
00:04:15:11 - 00:04:42:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a group that sort of came from you know, many years of my trying to have a forum to be able to tell people what the science shows around the monarch butterfly, you know, because I think the monarchs, you know, everybody has these ideas about what monarchs need, what monarchs, what what the research shows. A lot of that information that people think that they know, you know, may or may not be true.
00:04:42:00 - 00:05:12:00
Speaker 2
And it's because they're getting their information from various sources. A lot of it is coming from social media. And so I sort of sat there one day and said, okay, if if all of this misinformation is present in social media, we need to have a place where there's accurate information about the monarchs. And so that's where the idea came from, just to be able to have a place in a a seat at the at at the table right in the in the conversation about monarchs.
00:05:12:19 - 00:05:21:13
Speaker 2
It's been it's been a quite the journey. It's been a year and some change since I've started it. It's it's been a learning experience for me.
00:05:21:15 - 00:05:44:13
Speaker 1
And I think we're all learning about that impacts of social media. It is very common now where I get sent a Tik-Tok video or Instagram posts or something and they say, Is this true? Is this real? Actually, just this morning I could not recognize the plant that they put on there, so I actually went to a I and I put that in there.
00:05:44:13 - 00:05:54:02
Speaker 1
Turns out the image I was sent was an AI generated image of a plant, wasn't even a real plant. And and I actually found the exact copy online.
00:05:54:04 - 00:06:11:08
Speaker 2
So that's that's a big fear, right? Is that, you know, at some point we're already at this point now, at some point, it's going to be getting harder and harder to tell what's real and what's not. Right. And and social media is where this all of this stuff is sort of happening in real time in front of us.
00:06:11:08 - 00:06:17:04
Speaker 2
And it's people are confused about a lot of things, like monarchs are one of them.
00:06:17:06 - 00:06:34:16
Speaker 1
Well, also, Andy, could you maybe just spend a few minutes to introduce yourself? You can do it better than I think either of us can. I mean, I read that that you are at the University of Georgia and you're at this not not the Oden, but the Odum School of Ecology or Biology.
00:06:34:18 - 00:07:01:21
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. So I've been here since 2010, I believe, as a as a professor, my background is diverse. I'm I guess what I'm what you could you could call, like, an all around naturalist ecologist with maybe a specialty in animals, animal physiology, and especially animal migrations, which is where I sort of first got my love of the monarchs.
00:07:01:23 - 00:07:25:21
Speaker 2
But, you know, I've studied a lot of critters and things in my time, from birds to to amphibians to beetles, parasites. My problem is that, you know, I'm too excited about too many things. Right? And in that and I have a hard time focusing on one thing. I've probably spent the longest time in my career studying the monarch butterflies.
00:07:26:00 - 00:07:50:20
Speaker 2
So if I'm an expert on anything in the in this world, it's probably monarchs. But even then, I mean, I feel like my knowledge is in somewhat limited because, you know, people have been studying monarchs for for decades, decades and decades. Right. And so of all of the critters to to to focus on this is one where, like the literature on the monarchs is just vast.
00:07:50:22 - 00:08:15:17
Speaker 2
And so no wonder people have a hard time, you know, keeping up with it because you know, every week there's a new study on the monarch butterflies. Right. And it's been like that for decades. And so I literally have stacks and stacks of scientific studies in my office, in my lab here. You know, that it's like this tall, you know, it's tremendous how much research is going on in the monarch butterflies?
00:08:15:17 - 00:08:29:16
Speaker 1
Well, I'd say it's time to dive into that to that research. So we do have a list of questions for you today to really kind of unpack this. And so, Ken, if you wouldn't mind kicking us off, please.
00:08:29:18 - 00:08:47:22
Speaker 3
All right. So I think a lot of people for a lot of people say, especially recently, the decline of monarchs has kind of been their introduction to the monarchs or becoming interested in them. So it's been in the news a lot this winter. Are call came out and they were particularly the populations are particularly low in Mexico this year.
00:08:47:24 - 00:08:51:17
Speaker 3
So are we going to see fewer monarchs this summer because of that?
00:08:51:19 - 00:08:58:20
Speaker 2
Okay. So so let me stop you right there, because most of what you said is wrong.
00:08:58:22 - 00:09:22:24
Speaker 2
But to be fair, this is where everybody has had this is this is where everybody starts, Right? The same way you just said this. They see the news about the declines in Mexico. So just for to back up really to from the get go. Right. People should know that the monarchs spend their winter at these Mexico colonies and in these mountaintop regions where they hang out on trees.
00:09:22:24 - 00:09:47:00
Speaker 2
You've probably seen like the National Geographic videos of this. And it's it's a spectacular phenomenon. The entire population attempts to make this one long distance migration every fall to those places. And then at the end of the year, at the end of the winter, they'll sort of re migrate northward. And that's kind of where we are right now.
00:09:47:00 - 00:10:18:00
Speaker 2
We're sort of midway through the spring migration northward as the monarchs are traveling back. And so what you're what you're pointing out there is that this past winter, the numbers of monarchs at that wintering colony was pretty low. In fact, it was one of the lowest we've seen. However, that is one snapshot of one time point in the Monarchs grand life cycle, right throughout the entire entire year.
00:10:18:02 - 00:10:47:04
Speaker 2
We have other snapshots where people have been tracking monarch numbers for many decades in some cases, and including in Illinois And people, there's actually a group, a volunteer based group that has been counting the numbers of butterflies in Illinois for a number of decades now. And they do that every summer and they use very standardized methods. I've seen their data on the numbers of monarchs that they've counted over the last 30 years.
00:10:47:06 - 00:11:22:03
Speaker 2
And guess what? The numbers of monarchs that counted hasn't really changed over the last 30 years. It's gone up and down, up and down, you know, some random randomness, some random noise here and there. But overall, there's been no long term decline in the numbers of monarchs counted. In Illinois, where you are. Right. And so when people say that the monarchs are declining, you know, they get this impression that they're they're declining across the board like everywhere, because people think the numbers of monarchs in Mexico represents the entire population.
00:11:22:05 - 00:11:47:16
Speaker 2
But it doesn't it really represents the numbers of monarchs. This is really important. It really represents the numbers of monarchs that successfully made it to Mexico. See the difference there? And so we used to think that the entire population was, quote unquote, every fall, the entire population would all travel down to Mexico, where they'd hang out, spend the winter.
00:11:47:18 - 00:12:13:20
Speaker 2
And that allowed us to sort of count the number, the numbers or the size of the wintering colonies. It all seemed so logical and so convenient for us, for a scientist. Right. And to be fair, this was this was the thinking even, you know, almost 15 years ago, people saw it. And some people still do that. The numbers of monarchs in Mexico represented the entire population.
00:12:13:22 - 00:12:43:14
Speaker 2
But I just told you what's going on in Illinois. Right. So clearly, the numbers of monarchs in Mexico, that trend, it doesn't represent what's happening in Illinois. And so what what is probably going on And in fact, we have some good, good evidence of this happening now is that during the summer, the monarchs are just rebounding every every summer, like the population is sort of recouping their losses every summer very readily, actually.
00:12:43:16 - 00:13:10:00
Speaker 2
And so every summer you see you see basically the same numbers you've seen every summer. But the numbers that actually successfully arrive in Mexico seems to have been going down. So really, it's not that the monarchs started it that are declining. It's the migration. That's the one thing that seems to be the big trouble right now. Getting getting to Mexico safely is the big trouble.
00:13:10:00 - 00:13:39:12
Speaker 2
The big the big problem. So really, it's it's not really that monarchs have a numbers problem. Like, it's not like we're producing not enough monarchs. Certainly not in Illinois. You're producing just as many as you always have. It's just that they're having trouble reaching that wintering destination. So given that I just told you this, that kind of means that the numbers in Mexico are not really a good snapshot, too, to look at to begin with.
00:13:39:14 - 00:13:44:16
Speaker 2
It's almost misleading. Right. Because I just told you what's happening in Illinois.
00:13:45:12 - 00:14:03:13
Speaker 2
And so really, if you're a homeowner in Illinois, what's the best thing to look at? You know, you can look at the numbers of monarchs in Mexico. Yeah, that might tell you something. But it's also misleading because in your backyard, you have the same numbers of monarchs you always have. This is a that's a hard thing is there's some new ones to that.
00:14:03:13 - 00:14:32:11
Speaker 2
Right. And so there's a lot of things that are going against what I'm saying here that are sort of working against me, trying to convince people of this. The situation. And this is sort of getting into the like the problems with misinformation and social media and all that stuff. Like this idea that the monarchs are declining has sort of become like a symbolic of the general decline of the environment.
00:14:32:12 - 00:14:56:18
Speaker 2
Right. And or insect declines everywhere. And and there's a lot of emotions wrapped up in this idea that the monarchs are in trouble. And there's a lot of like money passing hands back and forth, people trying to sell you plants to save the monarchs. Right. Or or people are trying to sell you something to rear the butterflies in like a little cage.
00:14:56:20 - 00:15:25:00
Speaker 2
Or there's like there's actual, like funds being transferred from the government to various organizations for their efforts to save the monarchs. Right. So so for a lot of different reasons, this idea that the monarchs are in trouble is still around. It's still it's still perpetuating, despite what I just told you. And it's a little frustrating for me as a scientist because I'm just a guy who looks at data all day.
00:15:25:02 - 00:15:48:23
Speaker 2
And from the data I see, I just told you what what they show. But yet there's still this perception and you even just sort of articulated it right, that the monarchs are in trouble and we all need to do something. And it's this is another reason why I started this Facebook group. Right. Because there's so much of this misinformation.
00:15:49:04 - 00:16:00:04
Speaker 2
Not that what you said, Ken, was wrong, per se. Because there really has been a decline in the numbers of monarchs in Mexico. Right. There's just more nuance to that, to that story.
00:16:00:04 - 00:16:25:23
Speaker 1
now I'm curious. And in Illinois, kind of a few years ago, the big news was whisperings of potential listings of the monarch on the endangered species. So kind of based on what you just said. What's your thoughts on that proposal on the books? Because there's I mean, a lot of farmers, land managers, all that, that makes them very nervous.
00:16:26:00 - 00:16:52:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I'm I'm I'm sighing a little bit because it's a big it's a big, hard topic. I have some thoughts on it, but I'm kind of torn myself and and some of my colleagues are torn, too, because, you know, number one, listing the monarchs as endangered would be sort of a crime against science. Right? Because the population is not declining from what I just said.
00:16:52:10 - 00:17:19:22
Speaker 2
Right. One, there's one snapshot at one time point, there's a decline. However, they're clearly able to rebound every summer. Right. And in fact, they may have been doing this for for hundreds of years, for all we know. And so there really isn't a numerical numerical like a decline in the numbers of monarchs in North America. There really isn't.
00:17:19:24 - 00:17:46:19
Speaker 2
In fact, if you look at the breeding range of the monarchs compared to every other butterfly species and I've done this, there's like there's 450 different species of butterflies in North America. Guess which one has the biggest breeding range in the entire continent? The monarchs. They occupy every state, almost every province in Canada. They have breeding resources in every state and every province.
00:17:46:21 - 00:18:18:05
Speaker 2
No other butterfly can make that claim. None. I've. I've looked at this. And so there's the breeding range. Size is absolutely enormous. You can't have a large breeding range size if you're in trouble. And so compared to a lot of other species, monarchs are like killing it. Like, they're not really doing well. And so that's why I say if the monarchs were to be listed, it would be a tragedy, because it means that the science doesn't really matter.
00:18:18:07 - 00:18:57:14
Speaker 2
It's more about the actual perception and the the the perpetuating myth about the monarchs being in trouble. Right. And the actual listing decisions. You know, I've actually looked at some of the the records that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service says it's based its decision on, and it's all based on the declines in Mexico. There wasn't any consideration of how many monarchs there are in the summer in Illinois or other other states where we have similar data, which was actually a number of other states where you can actually look at similar trends in monarch abundance.
00:18:57:16 - 00:19:22:00
Speaker 2
And there's no real long term decline. But yet that one place in Mexico is the place where there has been a decline. And so if you only look at that, then, of course, you would think, yes, the species is in trouble. But the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service didn't do that. They just looked at the Mexico colonies and the numbers going down.
00:19:22:02 - 00:19:53:11
Speaker 2
So on the one hand, it would be a crime against science if if they were listed. However, I have some alternative thoughts on this, and this is going to get into another, you know, you know, another hot topic. If the Monarchs were to be listed officially in this country as endangered, that might that might bring in some some legislation that prevents people from actually touching them.
00:19:53:13 - 00:20:33:05
Speaker 2
Right. Just like any other endangered species. Right. Like, you can't bring an endangered whatever into your house to, you know, feed it food. And so if the monarchs were to be listed as endangered, that would actually prevent people from doing a whole lot of things that actually aren't helping the monarchs at all right now. And this is another another can of worms that, you know, you may not want me to open, but, you know, there's a fair amount of research now showing how the actions of a lot of well-meaning people are actually hindering the very thing that's in trouble.
00:20:33:06 - 00:21:04:11
Speaker 2
The fall migration, what I'm getting at is when people like kind hearted people see a caterpillar on their backyard milkweed, or they see a bunch of them and they want to protect those caterpillars from, you know, the ravages of Mother Nature. And so they'll bring those caterpillars into their homes, put them in a tub. You know, we're in a container or something like that in rear of them, you know, on on, on milkweed leaves until they reach their adult stage, and then they'll sort of let them free in their backyard thinking that they're helping.
00:21:04:15 - 00:21:32:20
Speaker 2
Right. It sounds great. Right? People use this as an educational activity for kids. Right. And it's a really fun thing to do. People get really jazzed about it. There's some people use this as a way to sort of remember lost loved ones. So there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in this. And people really love doing it. But there's been some research on this in the last five years, this very thing of the releases of captive monarchs.
00:21:32:22 - 00:22:00:20
Speaker 2
And all of the research from various different various studies all point to one thing. These monarchs are not really good at migrating. They're just not. Some of them do make it to Mexico, like a small number of them do, but the vast majority don't. And we know that they're like, I've actually done some many studies myself. I've actually tested them, these captive reared monarchs, they're actually weaker than wild monarchs physically weaker.
00:22:00:22 - 00:22:27:16
Speaker 2
We know that they don't fly as well. We know that their navigational senses are off. There's there's a number of issues with these captive bred monarchs. We're not really sure why this is happening. Something to do with the indoor environment or even the outdoor environment, even if you remove them outdoors, you know, in a cage that seems to have a similar negative influence on the monarchs, not as much as bring them indoors.
00:22:27:18 - 00:22:54:17
Speaker 2
But these releases of these captive reared monarchs that are all, you know, not as good at migrating is the actual last thing we need to be doing to help save the monarch migration. So, yeah, this is a problem. So if the monarchs were to be listed as endangered, this could solve that problem. Right. No one's going to like it because then they won't be able to have their caterpillars on anymore.
00:22:54:19 - 00:23:01:04
Speaker 2
But it might prevent people from going overboard with this, with this thing.
00:23:01:06 - 00:23:21:05
Speaker 2
That's as I said, this is a can of worms that, you know, you may not want me to open up, but. And people hate it when I talk about this because they just love those caterpillars. They love releasing the monarchs. But, you know, the science is the science. And it's all of the studies. Not even just not my studies, but they all want to kind of point to the same thing.
00:23:21:07 - 00:23:27:03
Speaker 2
And I kind of feel like it's it's my job to sort of tell people what the science shows.
00:23:27:05 - 00:23:49:15
Speaker 1
So it I mean, it sounds like the monarch has a very compelling story, maybe one that we were all taught as kids, as we learn insect life cycles and and then maybe some. But as you said, well-meaning folks take this, they see Caterpillar or they think, hey, I can raise this caterpillar to become an adult butterfly, maybe help the population.
00:23:49:17 - 00:23:58:13
Speaker 1
But there's a a relatively small number of caterpillars that make it to adult in the wild. Correct. Like what? What percentage actually become adults?
00:23:58:14 - 00:24:22:07
Speaker 2
It's a small It's a small percentage. But this is also a thing that's this is another storyline that goes along with this issue that has sort of been corrupted a little bit along the way. So less than 5% of the monarch caterpillars ever make it to adult stage like in the wild. Right. Some people have taken that idea and said, well, this is why we need to regrow them in captivity.
00:24:22:09 - 00:24:45:23
Speaker 2
Right. Because there's so many things that are looking to eat them in the wild. Right. Because if you read them in captivity, you'll get like 75 to 95% of them making it to adulthood. Right. But that's not the way Mother Nature had intended it. And this is the part where everybody gets wrong. So Mother Nature intends for 95% of those characters to be eaten.
00:24:46:00 - 00:25:17:02
Speaker 2
That's what Mother Nature wants. Right. And this is why this is how this kid gets into the captive rearing thing. Right. The reason why I think the wild monarchs are always better when we test them compared to the captive reared monarchs in every test we run, they're always better. The reason is because of natural selection. When you get to be a monarch flying around in the wild, right, you've passed all of the rigors of Mother Nature's ravages, right?
00:25:17:04 - 00:25:42:05
Speaker 2
You've you've made it to the adult stage, but you're that 5% that made it so by default, you're a superstar to begin with. Right. You're the one that was able to fend off the predators or avoid them somehow. Or you had the best immune defense or you were the smartest. Look, there's literally research on how captive reared monarchs aren't as smart as wild ones.
00:25:42:07 - 00:26:13:03
Speaker 2
And so in the wild, the ones you see flying around are superstars to begin with. But in a captive scenario, you're rearing everybody. All of the wimps, all the rejects that would have died right in the wilds of Mother Nature. You're rearing them to adulthood because there's no stressors in the captive scenario. Right. You're rearing everybody. And so whenever we test captive reared monarchs versus wild ones, we always see this this big difference.
00:26:13:05 - 00:26:41:04
Speaker 2
That's what that's the reason. And so really, when people want to help the monarchs, it sounds crazy, but the best way you can help them is to just leave them alone in the wild. Sure, some of them are going to die. But that's the way Mother Nature intended it. Right. And so and this is this is a part where a lot of people, they have a hard time with seeing those caterpillars getting eaten by a wasp or whatever it is.
00:26:41:05 - 00:27:05:14
Speaker 2
Right. They see the cat. They see the wasp eating the caterpillar. And then people think, my God, I need to stop this from happening. Right. But that's actually supposed to happen in nature. That caterpillar was never supposed to make it. Right. And so I tell people to leave the Monarchs alone. And this is the thing that people really don't like to hear because they want to save them.
00:27:05:17 - 00:27:29:01
Speaker 2
Literally, they see the news. They see the monarchs being in trouble, which is not really don't really get the case. And they sort of innately want to help them. Right. And so they see the caterpillars in the backyard and they think, I can help this caterpillar today. Right. And so people are sort of taking what they see in the news and extrapolating into what they see in their backyards.
00:27:29:03 - 00:27:50:03
Speaker 2
And they're trying to do the right thing, but without actually any guidance. And so this is where things are getting confusing for a lot of people because they want to help. But yet, you know, here's this mean scientist telling them to let the caterpillars die. So I get a lot of I get hate mail. For telling people what the science shows.
00:27:50:03 - 00:28:12:08
Speaker 2
I literally do. And it's it's weird because, you know, some of the hate mail I get actually, it's funny because it when I tell people that monarchs are actually doing okay, right. Like your Illinois study, I tell people that and they I get pushback. People get mad at me because they like they want to be the one to save the monarchs.
00:28:12:08 - 00:28:36:02
Speaker 2
Right. And so this activity that people have in their backyards, like when they bring the monarchs in to get in to rear them. They think that they're helping the population. Right. And so they get this sort of savior complex. And I come along and I tell them, you know, the population didn't really need saving and what you're doing isn't really helping after all.
00:28:36:04 - 00:28:59:19
Speaker 2
And so it's, you know, I get people getting mad at me for telling basically what the science shows. And it's it's been interesting, as I said before, this, you know, I'm on social media now in this Facebook group trying to convey all of these messages to people. Right. And I get pushback from people who don't like to hear it.
00:28:59:21 - 00:29:25:21
Speaker 2
But, you know, not to ramble on too much about this topic, but, you know, part of the problem is the is, you know, media hype, right. Over the monarchs. This the Save the Monarch story has been around for a long time, at least a decade now. It was always a sort of misconstrued, misconstrued construing of the actual evidence.
00:29:25:21 - 00:29:53:16
Speaker 2
Right. But it didn't really stop the the story from from snowballing. And it basically became a self-perpetuating kind of storyline in the media. And to be fair, right, the story kind of writes itself, right? It's it here's this cute little butterfly that everybody loves and is in trouble for. That's what the story says. Right. And you can save it by planting milkweed in your backyard.
00:29:53:20 - 00:30:18:06
Speaker 2
Right. And so this story has been written a thousand times in a thousand different different forums. And it always sells. Always. It gets clicks. It gets reads. People share it like those stories about the monarchs being in trouble are just like a gold mine for media personnel. Right. And they told me this. I talked to a lot of journalists.
00:30:18:08 - 00:30:48:00
Speaker 2
But here's the thing. The journalists never write what I'm telling you because because it doesn't sell it, right? It doesn't. Nobody wants to hear that the monarchs aren't in trouble. And you may not be helping after all. Right. People don't want to hear it. People don't want to read it. And so the journalists don't write it. It becomes this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy where you only see the stories about the monarchs being in trouble.
00:30:48:02 - 00:31:21:09
Speaker 2
It's it's a really complex ball of wax. Right. And it's it's I've been trying to to sort of push back on on this, you know, in the social media age that I have. I also have a blog WW Monarch Science dot org. You've just put in a selfish blog where I also do the same thing where I sort of convey some of the science on the monarchs in a layperson kind of way, and to try to sort of show people what the actual science shows.
00:31:21:11 - 00:31:44:17
Speaker 2
Right. And with no spin, no nothing. This is just here's the study. This is what they did. This is what they found. This is what it means. So, I mean, I feel like I've been rambling a little bit here because this is going in my world now. Right. Trying to get the science across to people, trying to correct the record over and over again, failing mostly.
00:31:44:19 - 00:32:05:22
Speaker 1
No, I. I am so I am very guilty of what you say. And it wasn't until Ken pointed me to your blog, which we'll link to, and then we we found your Facebook page that that I started to change my my message in my tone about this whole topic. So you've at least you can, like, chalk one up for me.
00:32:05:22 - 00:32:15:14
Speaker 1
You know, you got me. So I'm changing my tone, changed my message, and I'm adapting based upon what the science and the data is that that you're putting out. So.
00:32:15:14 - 00:32:55:09
Speaker 2
Well, you know, it's amazing how how easily it is to fall into this rabbit hole. Right. Of, you know, looking at the news going off of what what we see trying to, you know, take leaps into intuitive leaps based on what we think is going on, based on what we think they need. You know, and I think I blame some of this this this gap we have between the science in the public eye, blame some of this on on the scientists are so so we are to blame for some of this problem because except for me, like too many of my colleagues don't do what I'm doing.
00:32:55:11 - 00:33:27:19
Speaker 2
They they stay in their labs. They write their little papers, say they talk to other academics, other scientists, and they never sort of leave the world of academia. And their work, while, you know, important, is failing to actually reach everyday people. And that's that's on us as scientists. Right. Because, you know, I don't think that science is sort of adapting to the changing society that we have right now where people are getting more and more of their information online.
00:33:28:00 - 00:33:52:09
Speaker 2
Right. And they're they're less inclined to actually read the actual scientific paper, the more inclined to read the new story, which may or may not be true. So I think we scientists need to kind of adapt in some kind of way, almost like what I'm doing and try to reach people with the message of whatever it is that we're studying because there is a growing gap right now.
00:33:52:09 - 00:33:54:22
Speaker 2
And that kind of worries me as a scientist.
00:33:54:24 - 00:34:13:20
Speaker 3
So for the I guess the rearing, I guess take home message is, you know, we shouldn't be doing that. But what about people who like, you know, the want to raise the one or two caterpillars for their kids? Is that okay to do still? Are we talking like small scale? One or two is fine. We just want to avoid the the large scale we're cranking out 100 caterpillars and Yeah.
00:34:13:23 - 00:34:14:07
Speaker 3
And stuff.
00:34:14:08 - 00:34:44:18
Speaker 2
So I, I'm saying again because this is another loaded topic, but one or two is probably not going to hurt or hurt that much. But you got to consider the scale of this practice, you know, across the entire country, in both countries, Canada and the U.S., there's hundreds of thousands of people doing this. Right. If you just look at the numbers of people on social media pages, Facebook, Facebook groups, if it's hundreds of thousands of people are each rearing like five.
00:34:44:20 - 00:35:10:03
Speaker 2
You can see how this scales up. And most of them aren't really just five, because that's the other problem with with doing this. It you quickly sort of scale things up and it becomes almost addictive really where and then especially if you're if you're caterpillars don't make it to the adult stage in your in your cat, in your container, Then people sort of want to try it again, to get it to get it right.
00:35:10:05 - 00:35:38:16
Speaker 2
And so it quickly becomes sort of cumulative and, you know, that's when it becomes problematic. Right. So and this is just the mom and pop groups, right? The the families that are doing this, it's a small scale. There's actually commercial outfits that are that are selling works, captive reared monarchs that are that are, you know, reared in captivity and sold in massive numbers.
00:35:38:18 - 00:36:05:01
Speaker 2
So that's another, you know, situation where there's you know, there's some science on this, too. And those are just as you know, they're not as good as wild monarchs, to be fair. But if you consider both the mom and pops and the commercial groups, right, it's probably millions of monarchs that are been that are being released every year into the population that are captive, reared and that aren't very good at migrating.
00:36:05:03 - 00:36:37:23
Speaker 2
So I see how this is the problem. And so sort of there's another philosophical problem. I have not really a problem or a philosophical thought or comment, I guess, on just doing this with a couple of caterpillars for your kids. Right. And I've done this for my kids. Do it. To be fair, when you rear the monarchs in captivity to the adult stage, people think if the monarch doesn't make it, if it dies in captivity, then you failed.
00:36:38:00 - 00:37:13:23
Speaker 2
Right. It's only a success if that caterpillar turns into an adult in an adult butterfly and it flies away. But according to Mother Nature, 95% of them are supposed to die. Right. And so when we do this in captivity, we're kind of teaching kids the wrong thing, that it's only a success if the caterpillar flies away from. From an ecological perspective, it's actually more a success If the caterpillar dies, if it gets eaten by something.
00:37:14:00 - 00:37:41:04
Speaker 2
You know, from a biological perspective, the monarch caterpillar is designed to be eaten in nature, you know, And so that's almost like their their their main job in the ecosystem. And so you can see how rearing in captivity doesn't really teach people about that main job. It teaches people what the lifecycle is. Yes. But then people sort of gravitate.
00:37:41:08 - 00:38:20:13
Speaker 2
People get the impression then that it's a failure if the caterpillar doesn't survive. But I think it should be the opposite, right? I think we should be teaching. It doesn't teach people, I guess my, my, my, my philosophical, philosophical problem is that it doesn't teach people what the real role of the caterpillar is in Mother Nature. And so I think this is where it's another situation where, you know, people don't want to hear this, but, you know, this is what people need to hear, because if people knew that, then they wouldn't be going out of their way to bring those caterpillars inside.
00:38:20:15 - 00:38:40:01
Speaker 2
Right. If people saw the caterpillar being eaten and they they were okay with it, that would sort of make it easier to just sort of, you know, throw up your hands and say, okay, that's just Mother Nature. That's a hard thing for people to do, especially some of the newbies who want to she want to get in there with their hands.
00:38:40:01 - 00:38:44:11
Speaker 2
They want to they want to, you know, help physically help the monarchs.
00:38:44:11 - 00:38:51:09
Speaker 2
This is this is a lot to take in. Like everything everything you thought you knew about monarchs.
00:38:51:11 - 00:38:55:00
Speaker 1
But a lot of crushed dreams on this podcast. So.
00:38:55:02 - 00:39:16:23
Speaker 3
So it's pop some more bubbles and open another can of worms here. So, you know, so rearing, you know, probably we should have been doing that. But people had rear monarchs by times to purchase tropical milkweed because it's stays green longer. They have food available longer for them into the fall when our native species are declining and not providing food for them.
00:39:16:23 - 00:39:22:02
Speaker 3
So what are some of the issues with growing this tropical milkweed?
00:39:22:04 - 00:39:47:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, So if people are just listening, I'm shaking my head at this one because yet another can of worms. It's it's really it's a really controversial issue. It shouldn't be, but it is so to begin with. Right. This and here's where I blame the Save the Monarchs campaign. People are think people think that monarchs need milkweed or else the population is going to going to go extinct.
00:39:47:01 - 00:40:08:18
Speaker 2
Right. And so people go to their nearest big box store. They buy some milkweed, not really thinking about it. They bring it home and plant it in a lot of places, especially in the south. What they buy at the store is non-native milkweed. Milkweed is not native to this country, not even native to this continent in some cases.
00:40:08:20 - 00:40:33:16
Speaker 2
So a lot of these stores are selling this non-native milkweed because this is this is interesting. They're selling it because people want to buy it. Right. And so it's a big seller. So on the one hand, you get you can't really blame the nurseries for for selling this stuff because it's a you make a lot of money. But on the other hand, right, it's it's non-native.
00:40:33:18 - 00:41:05:08
Speaker 2
And so there's been a lot of research on the effects of tropical milkweed. For one, there's one milkweed that's being sold a lot. And just like the captive rearing situation, all of the research that we've seen so far on the tropical milkweed shows that it's really bad for the monarch migration. It there's a lot of problems with it when monarchs grow up eating that milkweed when the caterpillars eat that milkweed, it makes them it changes their physiology.
00:41:05:10 - 00:41:41:13
Speaker 2
And so that it makes it sort of not sit so that they aren't really good at migrating their wings are slightly is it smaller or is it they're lighter in color? I can't remember what the actual scenario, but there's there's problems with their wings. There's problems with their endurance. And so so this this milkweed really all non-native milkweeds have these similar problems where they're not the monarchs haven't really adapted to those milkweeds in this country.
00:41:41:13 - 00:42:08:15
Speaker 2
So they're not really that they haven't co-evolved with those milkweeds here in this country, in this country, in North America, all milkweeds, all native milkweeds, dieback, as you said, at the end of the summer, as supposed to. Right. But yet these non-native milkweeds tend not to. So where you are in Illinois, those non-native milkweeds, they'll probably die back at some point, right, when you get when the snow starts falling.
00:42:08:17 - 00:42:35:00
Speaker 2
Right. But by then, by that time, they they've they've been sort of in leaf long after the native milkweeds have all have all died back being in the leaf we think kind of tricks the monarchs as they're migrating. So when a monarch, migrating monarch is flying over those milkweeds and sees a lush green milkweed, it tricks them into becoming a breeder breeding monarch.
00:42:35:02 - 00:42:56:14
Speaker 2
It tricks them into thinking it's time for me to start laying eggs. And so they we don't know how long it's how long it happened, how long it lasts. But when they see this milkweed, especially in further further south of you, we think it sort of it alters their sort of migration instincts.
00:42:56:16 - 00:43:30:08
Speaker 2
There's there's some other issues with that non-native milkweed, too. And this relates to something that we haven't gotten into yet on the podcast. There is a disease, a parasite, that monarchs get that is being amplified in the population because of these non-native milkweeds. This disease, it's a protozoan parasite that lives on the monarchs. And as the monarchs are sort of flying around, they drop the infectious spores of this parasite onto the milkweeds as the caterpillars hatch and eat the milkweed leaves.
00:43:30:08 - 00:43:57:08
Speaker 2
They then ingest some of those spores, and then they become infected. This parasite, it's a naturally occurring parasite that that the monarchs have probably had for eons. However, it's always been at a low, low prevalence in this country, less than 5%, no less than 4.5% of the population had this parasite. Now it's more like 15% in the summer.
00:43:57:10 - 00:44:26:17
Speaker 2
It's a huge jump. And this jump has, as has occurred exactly at the same when the Save the Monarchs campaign started. And this jump has also coincided with the with the prevalence and the rise of these non-native milkweeds that people are planting. So and captive rearing also spreads this parasite more. So a lot of these actions that people are doing right are sort of helping to exacerbate this parasite.
00:44:26:19 - 00:44:58:21
Speaker 2
And we know also that this parasite negatively influences migration success of the monarchs. So you've got the non-native milkweeds that don't do any favors to the migration. You've got the parasite but that also hinders the migration and you've got captive rearing that also creates monarchs that aren't very good at migrating. And so it's almost no wonder that the thing that's in trouble right now is is the fall migration to Mexico.
00:44:58:23 - 00:45:22:21
Speaker 2
And the sad thing is the sad irony is a lot of these those three things are all being driven by the actions of well-meaning people trying to help. Isn't this crazy? Yeah, I mean, it's it is. I beg my head against my desk every time, every day in my Facebook group. Right. Because more and more people come into the into the group joining.
00:45:22:21 - 00:45:51:10
Speaker 2
Right. Thinking that they're helping because they they've been doing everything I just said. And it's like I have to sort of reprogram this person, you know, not yet another person who's been indoctrinated by this Save the Monarchs dogma. So for all for all of those reasons. Right. This is why I'm kind of thinking, you know, it might almost be a good thing if the Fish and Wildlife Service did list the monarchs as endangered because then it would kind of be like hands off the monarchs.
00:45:51:12 - 00:46:18:12
Speaker 2
Right. It would in one fell swoop, we could kind of fix a lot of these issues. Maybe not the maybe not the tropical milkweed thing, but it would certainly help. So, yeah, my my, my take home, you know, motto for everybody these days is just leave the Monarchs alone. You know, that would solve a lot of problems.
00:46:18:14 - 00:46:47:19
Speaker 1
So I and I will just keep restating this, like when I'm talking to someone. So with extension, we're dealing a lot with the public. And, you know, if I could direct that energy into something, what could I say to them? Like, you know what? I know you've been doing a lot of work. It's been very well-meaning. Is there any like support habitat conservation?
00:46:47:19 - 00:46:54:10
Speaker 1
Like, is there any anything I can point them to? Like like, hey, yeah, you said energy and do this.
00:46:54:15 - 00:47:12:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, I get this a lot too. You know, I do have like a like a a canned message that I tell people to really I tell people that they they can help. They don't necessarily need to help the monarchs, but you can sort of make your yard more insect friendly. And that would help a lot of things.
00:47:12:08 - 00:47:40:01
Speaker 2
Right? Not actually. Not in the way people think. Right. Making your yard insect friendly. It won't just help the insects, but it would help the birds. Right. Because, like, an insect friendly yard is like Mama bird's grocery store. Right. And people need to know that, too, right? Insects like monarchs are a natural food source. They're they're low on the food chain for a reason.
00:47:40:03 - 00:47:59:20
Speaker 2
Right. They are the base of the food chain for a lot of other animals. And so by making your own yard or insect friendly, you're helping all those other critters, too. You're not just helping the insects, but you're helping all those other critters. So I tell people, like some of the other things that other folks have said, do like reduce your lawn, right?
00:47:59:21 - 00:48:24:10
Speaker 2
Make your make your parts of your yard more in a wild rewild your yard in some places, you know, So there's there's ways you can actually work to help all critters in the in the in the in that's a low low in the food chain. So I know you guys had had another question for me but the spiders that you want to talk about that.
00:48:24:12 - 00:48:37:12
Speaker 3
Yes that's that is next on the list. So I guess if for people who don't aren't familiar with that, I guess what are your spiders and and how I guess you've done some research on general spiders and monarchs, I guess. What is what's that interaction like?
00:48:37:14 - 00:48:59:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. So this is another one of my my newest dalliances in the in my research world, another one of these things where I can't focus. And so the Jura spiders are a new spider that's that's not native to this country that arrived in Georgia where I am. And they arrived here ten years ago. They've been spreading ever since.
00:48:59:16 - 00:49:21:18
Speaker 2
They're from East Asia. They're as big as your your palm. So one of them would feel the size of my palm. They're huge and their webs are like six feet wide. They're absolutely enormous. And they're coming your way. The government into they're coming to Illinois probably in about five years. They'll be they'll be at your door. So they're spreading they're spreading outward.
00:49:21:18 - 00:49:50:00
Speaker 2
But I kind of fell into studying these critters here, really, because they just fell into my yard. Right. I've got hundreds of these in my back yard every fall now. And so I kind of just became captivated by them. I've studying them ever since the last three or four years. And it turns out that it's weird to say this, but they are a media sensation almost more so than the monarchs, but for for a different reason.
00:49:50:02 - 00:50:14:22
Speaker 2
Like every time I do a new Jarrow Spider study, it makes headlines around the world. And it's it's because people are so freaked out about the fact about the possibility of this spider, this huge spider coming for them. And so the fear of these spiders is what's driving their media fandom, whereas it's the love of the monarchs that's driving theirs.
00:50:14:24 - 00:50:39:12
Speaker 2
And so I've got like two ends of the spectrum here. I study two different critters that are loved and hated, but both get so much media attention anyway. So. So the latest study I did on the Spiders was was done. It came out earlier this year. It was done by some students of mine. And I actually combined these two different things, monarchs and euro spiders.
00:50:39:14 - 00:51:09:10
Speaker 2
So the idea here was to see if the Jerome spiders, which aren't native to this country, actually will eat the monarch butterflies, which are, as we all know, are toxic because they monarchs grow up eating milkweed. Here's the interesting thing. The euro spiders have never seen a monarch before. Right? And so we wondered if they would know if the monarchs were toxic, which is a really interesting question.
00:51:09:12 - 00:51:35:03
Speaker 2
Anyway, so we conducted this very simple study where we literally just tossed some monarchs in the into of spider webs. It sounds weird, but we found that the euro spiders actually did avoid eating the monarchs. And most of the monarchs or half the monarchs just flew away after the euro. Spiders just ignored them. And so it was kind of a good news story.
00:51:35:05 - 00:52:06:03
Speaker 2
But the interesting thing is that we found that the Jerome Spiders didn't actually need to touch the monarchs to learn to avoid them, Like it wasn't that they tasted them or even touch them at all. They just looked at them and backed away. Whereas the other butterfly species we tossed in there for comparison, they attacked immediately. And so somehow the Jerome Spiders just knew to avoid eating the monarchs, even though they've never seen them before and they never even tasted them.
00:52:06:05 - 00:52:31:10
Speaker 2
And so that got us thinking that maybe the euro spiders have some kind of like a extrasensory perception kind of thing where they can actually see some kind of a chemical scent or something like that, where they can sense it from a distance, which is their sense be weird. Right on. So we've got all sorts of ideas now for the next next project, but it ended up being a neat study that, you know, I talked about.
00:52:31:14 - 00:52:42:18
Speaker 2
But lately, recently in my blog too, and in the Facebook group too, surprisingly, it didn't get as much media attention as some of the other stories.
00:52:42:20 - 00:52:51:19
Speaker 3
So I guess I'm still going to be here in five years. Are they like the jurors spiders? Are they? I guess there's something we should be concerned about. Are they going to, like, cause ecological havoc?
00:52:51:24 - 00:53:19:07
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah. So that's the question I've gotten from a thousand different journalists. The answer is we don't know yet. Down here in Georgia, it doesn't look like the spiders are as bad as some of your other non-native, You know, critters like in the Northeast, you've got the spotted lanternfly. I mean, that thing is a beast. It is literally eating trees.
00:53:19:12 - 00:53:41:10
Speaker 2
Right. And people have orders to kill on site. Right. Because that thing is just horrible. The jurors blotter isn't in that category. Like, I'm not telling people to go out and kill jurors, spiders. It doesn't look like there's any damage, physical, obvious damage being done by these spiders. Yes. They're probably taking away insects from some of our native spiders.
00:53:41:12 - 00:54:04:13
Speaker 2
But on the other hand, I've actually documented where there's some positive effects of some of these zero spiders, too, on some of our native fauna, like birds, like I've actually documented where there are some bird species that are actually coming in and eating some of the food that's leftover from the jurors spider webs. So it might be a bit of a toss up with some good, some bad, but we don't know yet.
00:54:04:15 - 00:54:27:02
Speaker 2
So there's no crow on sight orders, even though people want to. Yeah, it's it's another weird thing where people keep telling me that these spiders must die. They're non-native. Right. And, you know, I kind of feel like philosophically, you know, it's not really the spiders fault that it's here. It's not really hurting you. It's just doing its thing.
00:54:27:02 - 00:54:51:17
Speaker 2
It's living its life. It's one of the shyest spiders in the world. I've actually tested that right here in this lab. And there's a way to test shyness in spiders. And I tested it. And compared to other species, it's the shyest species of spider ever documented. And so they're really, really docile. So I tell people to get to know them right instead of trying to squash them, you're not going to stop the spread.
00:54:51:19 - 00:55:04:07
Speaker 2
There's millions upon millions of them now. You know, killing something in your yard may make you feel better, but it's not going to stop them. I could do a whole new whole podcast on the Zero Spiders, so maybe call me in five years.
00:55:04:09 - 00:55:32:05
Speaker 1
We will have you back in five years. Don't retire. We need you. My goodness. Dr. Andy Davis. That was a lot of great information. Monarch Misconceptions. Setting the record straight. Thank you so much for being on the Good Growing podcast today. We really appreciate your time. We will link to the thoughtful Monarch Facebook page to your blog, where that's where I found out about spiders and monarchs.
00:55:32:07 - 00:55:34:01
Speaker 1
Well, thank you. They might be an opportunity.
00:55:34:01 - 00:55:42:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's always great to have have a voice in a medium like this. Right. And I appreciate what you guys do to help with this.
00:55:42:01 - 00:55:46:16
Speaker 1
Well, the Good Growing podcast is a production of University of Illinois extension, edited this week by me.
00:55:46:16 - 00:56:06:24
Speaker 1
Cassandra. Hey, thank you to Ken Johnson. Ken, Thanks for hanging out with me. And, you know, probably was maybe a year or two years ago pointed out, hey, there's this guy down in Georgia, Dr. Andy Davis. He knows something about monarchs. You should you should read his stuff. Thanks, Ken. That was a good show.
00:56:07:01 - 00:56:16:06
Speaker 3
Thank you. And thanks to Dr. Davis. Yes, it was good. Now we can when people point people to this podcast, when they start asking us about stuff.
00:56:16:08 - 00:56:18:18
Speaker 1
Exactly. And all that.
00:56:18:20 - 00:56:24:18
Speaker 3
And let's do this again next week for possibly our greatest podcast ever.
00:56:25:18 - 00:56:56:24
Speaker 1
we're we're we've reached the mountaintop. I think here we will do this again next, I will see you next week for Cicada Extravaganza. We are going to be sampling these the point of cicada emergence as they do the periodical cicadas is they there's no way anything can eat as many of them as as are out there. So it is defense by numbers and put that to the test.
00:56:56:24 - 00:57:18:16
Speaker 1
We're going to chow down on some cicadas next week with our nutritionist and our entomologists. So Kristen Bogdanos, Casey Anthony, we will be with them in Springfield, cooking cicadas. Look forward to that. I might see you next week. I don't know. Hopefully I'm not allergic to shellfish. We'll find out. So, listeners.
00:57:18:18 - 00:57:20:04
Speaker 3
Bring in EpiPen just in case.
00:57:20:06 - 00:57:30:00
Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best. And that is listening. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, watching and as always, keep on growing
00:57:43:03 - 00:57:52:20
Speaker 1
cuts, you might see this as a as big stuff here. We're hitting the big time baby.