Wellness at Work Podcast

Wellness at Work Podcast - Victoria Ferguson-Young, Victim Services Coordinator at NCALL
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In this episode of the Wellness at Work Podcast, brought to you by The Learning and Development Projects at Silberman School of Social Work–Hunter College, host Geoff Rogers and his guest, Victoria Ferguson-Young, Victim Services Coordinator at the National Clearinghouse on Abuse in Later Life (NCALL) discuss focus outreach to vulnerable adults who are 50 and older.

They discuss abuse in later life, the nature of elder abuse, and the challenges of domestic violence with vulnerable adults who are 50 and older. They also discuss the recent NY Times Opinion piece by Samuel Moyn addressing aging in America.
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Opening and closing themes: Música Clásica - Rondo Alla Turca. Piano Sonata no. 11, K. 331 - III. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
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Creators and Guests

Host
Geoff Rogers
Host of Wellness At Work Podcast
Producer
Jesan Sorrells
Producer of Wellness At Work Podcast
Guest
Victoria Ferguson-Young

What is Wellness at Work Podcast ?

From The Learning and Development Projects at Silberman School of Social Work - Hunter College

Geoff Rogers: So, we're back, and we're focusing on several aspects of,

Geoff Rogers: a conversation that Victoria Ferguson-Young and I have had. I'm so glad that we're here today to be able to talk about

Geoff Rogers: parts of a conversation that were in a previous episode, and I think today what we're going to be doing,

Geoff Rogers: Is to sort of drill down a little bit about a couple of topics surrounding aging, ageism.

Geoff Rogers: Interestingly enough, we're going to also be talking about the cultural perceptions of aging, and there's also some discussion about the impact of GLP-1s.

Geoff Rogers: On aging and, how we think it may be turning our society into a different direction.

Geoff Rogers: So, Victoria, welcome again. I'm so happy that you were able to come for another discussion or another talk.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation. It's always a pleasure to be in conversation with you, so looking forward to our discussion today.

Geoff Rogers: So,

Geoff Rogers: the interesting thing are the cultural perceptions of aging, and so one of the things that was kind of how we met, were… was… I think it was a year ago, we were at Tamkin, and,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Earlier this year.

Geoff Rogers: Oh, my gosh. Was it this one?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: February.

Geoff Rogers: Oh, it's February! Well, yeah, so, it's also… maybe we should be talking about how time passes for older people in stranger ways. I can, I can testify personally. But what… yeah, this year, about,

Geoff Rogers: we were sitting together, we'd been introduced to each other, and then we, towards the end of the conference, they had a little, sort of small group activity discussing what possible

Geoff Rogers: changes or possible, I don't know what you say… evolutions you could think about for nursing homes. And you and I have…

Geoff Rogers: We're sitting at a table by ourselves and we sort of said, "Okay, well, here's what we think." And we sort of just sort of said basically that the industry really needs significant change. I won't go into how significant we actually said.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Okay.

Geoff Rogers: But,

Geoff Rogers: I guess what I, you know, taking away from that conversation, what I'm thinking about is there are perceptions in the media and culture about aging that are changing.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Right.

Geoff Rogers: M.

Geoff Rogers: If that makes sense, could you talk a little bit about those perceptions that are shifting?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, I mean, I think that we're, what we know is that we're seeing a shift from a conversation on ageism and aging.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: That was at one time very academic centered or only in gerontology or something that pertained to nursing homes or just a very like medically based focus, right, like it was, you know, having to do with just sickness or, you know, or surrounding like medical care. But what we know now is that aging is a much more comprehensive.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, aspect to explore in that it's based in so much more than only one's medical, you know, situation, but also their environment, you know, their socioeconomic status, all these other factors, you know, we're seeing just more organizations, movements surrounding aging in place. You know, our work at NCALL is really about educating

Victoria Ferguson-Young: communities on abuse in later life. So it's coming outside of, you know, I think it's shifting from being a very, you know, small group kind of, you know, discussion board.

Geoff Rogers: Right, right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: spaces to now it is expanding to, you know, to more people and to more communities and to really bring about more practical ways to assist older adults. So we've seen that with even legislation that has been passed in the past like 10, 20 years, Elder Justice Act, Older Americans Act, things that, you know, that are, you know, there's been more policy and not that.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: we have… not that we are where we need to be, I'm not suggesting that, but we're seeing more of a shift in that

Victoria Ferguson-Young: this is not something that's as abstract. It's like, you know, aging really requires,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It's much more than just what's going on between an older adult and their doctor, but it's about their environment, it's about their socioeconomic status, their social connections, you know, just their access to fresh, healthy food and feeling safe in their home. So there's so many other factors that contribute to one's aging. And so, you know, we're starting, in some ways, we're starting to see

Victoria Ferguson-Young: seeing more… we're not seeing enough, but, you know, we're seeing more representation, in older adults, but, you know, there's still so… a lot of… there's still so much more that has to happen that needs to take place.

Geoff Rogers: So the last part, I just want to — if you could expand a little bit. I mean, I was thinking about when you said that, what popped into my mind is, one, it's a much more complex.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes.

Geoff Rogers: Yeah, you know, it really sort of unfolds. The other part about it is, is the idea of the intersection, or, you know, borrowing from a little bit from the com- from the idea of intersectionality, intersectionality, I think…

Geoff Rogers: What are your thoughts about that? Because I think traditionally, you're right. We've been educated around aging in a very narrow perspective. Now what we have is a broader but a much bigger landscape to cover.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes, yes. And you know, I think what is happening is that the fact that even ageism is considered, is starting to be considered more of an ism and more of a true problem and not just, you know, something that is innocuous and harmless. We're seeing that, you know, aging and these are social justice issues, right? They're not individual problems.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: But they are issues of social justice that in order to improve the livelihoods and the health span, not only lifespan, how long someone lives, but the health span, how healthy someone's life is, their quality of life, requires, you know, requires the whole society to support that, right?

Geoff Rogers: Yeah.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: that, I think, you know, that piece is.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It's really important to highlight here that it's not just, again, a personal or medical thing, you know, it's not just this one-sided or very narrow thing, but it really is, you know, something that's a much broader issue that, you know, more policies will be needed to help to improve the lives of older adults so that, you know, there's more access to better healthcare and medical care, that, you know, there's more access to fresh and healthy food.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: I mean, you know, and things that contribute and even, you know, that families get more support surrounding for older adults who have more complex care needs.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: There's much more community support. There's even more opportunities for older adults to be engaged in community, for those who oftentimes when people stop working due to retirement, they lose a lot of that social connection. And so we're seeing more ways for older adults to be engaged in that way. We're seeing more older adults going back to school, starting careers later in life, getting doctorates in their 70s.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: These are like advancements there, but you know, there's still so much that has to, you know, there's still so much work that needs to happen there. I think abuse in later life and elder abuse is still more taboo than it should be. It, you know, should be something that we all recognize and know about and are working to solve and to stop.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It's still something that, you know, people don't think is a problem, you know, don't think is a problem or that older adults are experiencing abuse or violence. So there's still work to do, but we've made, there's been a big shift in recognizing that this is a true community effort that takes, you know, a macro level society, you know, social justice initiatives, not just individual personal type of things to try to fix.

Geoff Rogers: So what are the less recognizable but still Significantly impactful kinds of abuse.

Geoff Rogers: that you think are underreport… not so much under-recognized. I don't want to talk about reporting, because that's a whole other issue, but I… what do you… you know, one of the kinds of… there are kinds of abuse that are much more…

Geoff Rogers: For lack of a better term.

Geoff Rogers: Acceptable? Do you see where I'm going with that?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes, or what is maybe considered, like, that's abuse. If this had…

Geoff Rogers: That's.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: bruises and black eyes, that's abuse. Right. Yeah, so, I mean, to answer that, what I'm thinking is that… and, you know, and for all individuals, but…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Typically, if you were to ask, you know, someone who's not well versed in that, the thought is, yes, if there's physical injury, then that is abuse. People still don't necessarily think, you know, that emotional abuse, psychological abuse are types of abuse, stalking as well. You know, older adults are 30% of older adults are experiencing stalking, you know, and may not be able to name it or call it that, but know that someone is watching their move, is showing them

Victoria Ferguson-Young: where they're not supposed to be, things of that nature. Sexual assault, I think, is probably the most, gonna be the most taboo that older adults are victims of sexual assault. Yeah.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, again, there's still a common notion that sexual abuse or rape is

Victoria Ferguson-Young: About sex or pleasure but it's about power and control and so you know people don't think that that would be something that would happen to an older adult. I think also the fact that family members are more likely to be the perpetrators against older adults too. That's something that is not commonly thought. We typically think of it's stranger scams, it's you know people.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: from outside of one's home that they don't know well who are trying to take advantage. And it is that. It is that. But much more commonly, older adults are experiencing abuse at the hands of a trusted person that they know.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Right. Be it a sentiment partner, spouse, adult child, adult grandchild, neighbor, friend, but people who they have a trust-based relationship with.

Geoff Rogers: So sexual abuse, Is under-recognized, is it because we don't really think of older people having.

Geoff Rogers: Sexual lives.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Absolutely. Because again, I think the thought is with rape, with sexual assault, period, that it's more so about pleasure.

Geoff Rogers: Right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: about sex, but it is about power and control.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And so, yes, the thought of we don't think of older adults as being sexual beings anymore. So, you know, it's just it's not thought of as this is a problem that older adults are experiencing. But unfortunately, it very much is. But it's even more so underreported and, you know, due to ageism to kind of go back to that for a second.

Geoff Rogers: Right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Our data and our information on the occurrences of abuse is not…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: as profound as those in under… as younger individuals, because we know it's so underreported, right? There has not been the same amount of study-funded research on older adults, as it has for younger individuals. And so.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: We, you know, we have, we know that, what we do know is that one in every 24 cases of elder abuse come to light.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And so we're not getting a full reporting on all the abuse.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: That older adults are experiencing as well, so I mean this has repercussions from the, you know, the individual micro level to even how, you know, on the, on the macro level, what's focused on in research, who's important, you know, politically, who's getting recognized as victims, where do we need to fund that, you know, what is, what policies are created to support older adults.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: victim services for older adults. You know, it's not… we don't see that as there really being a need, because they're not…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: likely aren't victims, or they can… we serve everybody, so they can just… they get served with everybody else, but there's not a thought process of the nuance or specialized needs that they may have. Service as well.

Geoff Rogers: So, yeah, you know what, in a moment, I think I want to touch on that, to talk about the cult… the differences in terms of culture, and how…

Geoff Rogers: I guess for how I'm thinking about it is, is…

Geoff Rogers: If you are not aware, or… curious or open to understanding Difference.

Geoff Rogers: There is so much that's lost.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And it is absolutely critical with service providers, you know, in thinking about how aging in different cultures shows up. Well, for the most vulnerable of our communities.

Geoff Rogers: Right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: who are now in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond. If you have been a part of a most vulnerable group, or you have

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you are experiencing multiple layers of discrimination or oppression, or you've lived in poverty, you have, you know, maybe you're part of a marginalized group. To have decades of compound oppression and discrimination or disadvantage, and now to be an older age.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: That really does, it sets people up to be in positions where their health span is not what it would be for those who are more affluent or majority communities. And so that compounds. So things from redlining to segregated housing, to employment discrimination, to unequal education access, you know, to just healthcare inequalities.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, all of those things now for baby boomers and those from the silent generation who are in older age.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: That discrimination has compounded, and so that really sets up the biggest cultural differences than from communities who… the status quo, who has…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Who has higher net worth and income, who's had access and been a part of being able to live in safer communities with more access, with more fresh, nutritious food, with better transportation options. All of these things compound to make a significant difference in one's older life.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And regarding their healthspan and their lifespan, of course. And so…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: that, again, comes back to the social justice issue, right? We are… Yeah. You know, the environment and the opportunities are shaping, one's life in older age. So though people, you know, often may think, oh, if you're older, you know, like, you just need to work out and eat healthy, and you'll be okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: But, you know, that is not encompassing just the entire, you know, what is needed for a healthy lifestyle with social connections, with, you know, neighborhood safety and secure and stable housing and, you know, just the financial resources and stability that's needed for a healthy, long lifespan and healthspan. So all of that has to be considered. It's, you know, it's not, again, not personal. It is really

Victoria Ferguson-Young: a much bigger issue, and it's reflective what we see with older adults. And so, many who are most vulnerable, who are struggling, it's reflective of how our society is not set up for them to be

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, to be in the best place.

Geoff Rogers: Right. Embrace embrace the complexity.

Jesan Sorrells: Damn.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: So, okay.

Geoff Rogers: So Victoria, I wanna…

Geoff Rogers: talk more about perceptions around aging, particularly cultural, and I think I wanna… I think if we can steer the conversation to…

Geoff Rogers: Talk about the… how… In different cultures, financial exploitation and abuse

Geoff Rogers: how does it manifest, and how does it manifest differently? And I think because what we were just talking about, we were talking about how to embrace the complexity, but we also sort of have to under… I think there's also a respect thing that needs to sort of go on there in terms of.

Geoff Rogers: I like the way I call it a respect thing, rather than just respect. But it, you know, it really is something where…

Geoff Rogers: How do, how do you, in your experience.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Okay.

Geoff Rogers: Talk about the nuance.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, so, you know, some things that we see that are different with older adults who have

Victoria Ferguson-Young: a higher net worth, that have maybe significant retirement savings. Well, first let me preface it by saying that financial exploitation occurs across, regardless of socioeconomic status, right? It can, it can happen, to any, to any and everyone in,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: As an older adult. So it's not like there are some groups that aren't experiencing financial exploitation, and there are some who are, and, you know, like, so it does not discriminate in that way, but yes, things… there are multiple ways in which it can take place.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: So what, so what we do know is that when, when older adults who have a higher net worth, who, maybe have just

Victoria Ferguson-Young: who have more retirement savings or things of that nature. You know, they can experience, their, their accounts being mismanaged or even being accessed without their permission by, you know, their loved ones who have, who have access to them.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Right. So and I mean, that can happen with those who are who maybe don't have such a high net worth. But when there are individuals who I mean, what we see a lot of times is when there are adult children who aren't working for whatever reason or don't want to work, but they know that their parents or grandparents have, you know, have have savings, have money that they can access or enlarge some of it.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: There can be, you know, just exploitation can occur in that way. Like how can they access it without their permission or how can they, you know, maybe use more than they were supposed to or, you know, often think they don't really need it. They're old, they're going to die anyway. And so we see that type of exploitation happening. We also see from those who are outside who are not family members, but when there are, you know, sweetheart scams.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Obituary scams. So various type of scams that people will, you know, look into with the obituary one, which is popular is.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: people will read obituaries in a newspaper and contact someone find their contact information and you know say that they're their grandson Jason who you know is they they'll find out enough information through an obituary to be able to make up a story that they need money or can send them gift cards so those kinds of things are you know are happening as well for those who may not have the income or have

Victoria Ferguson-Young: have retirement savings or have savings that you know someone could access you know they may receive benefits from they may receive government benefits they may receive you know there is benefits trafficking that can happen there you know exploitation of benefits if someone is you know receiving

Victoria Ferguson-Young: SNAP benefits or,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Or even, you know, just other type of other social security, other benefits from the government. There's exploitation that can take place in that way to try to access it, to intercept checks or to intercept whatever those benefits may be as well. Still financial exploitation, different methods of how it can manifest. But again, it's not something that

Victoria Ferguson-Young: discriminates in regards to this not happening. You know, it is… but unfortunately, people become more and more clever as to how they can

Victoria Ferguson-Young: access or try to gain trust of someone to get access to it or create stories, to try to guilt trip older adults into, you know, giving money.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, we hear stories of.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: People who will even befriend older adults or widows and, you know, say that they've, and develop a relationship with them and then suddenly they have a made up crisis and they need $20,000 and, you know, they have pull on their heartstrings and they'll send it and then they never hear from them again, right? So, I mean, these are some of the ways that it's happening. We are also trying to connect with more financial institutions.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: To address this, so that more banks and those doing even wealth management are aware of… not that they're not aware, but just even,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: working with older adults in particular, right? And so…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: From having the… the interpersonal conversations, that take place to, you know, having… knowing how to connect them with local resources that they need, for safety planning and, even prevention with their… surrounding their finances. But what we also know is that more than…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, younger individuals, older adults are specifically targeted, financial exploitation and neglect are much more prevalent with older adult victims of violence than with younger individuals. So, yes, there are… there's a lot of,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, predators who are specifically targeting older adults in particular. And because many have worked for decades, have acquired, you know, their savings or retirement income, many older adults, you know, they can be targeted specifically for that.

Geoff Rogers: So financial, yeah, this is very helpful. So financial expectation is a form of trauma.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Absolutely.

Geoff Rogers: And can you… so… Can you talk a little bit about.

Geoff Rogers: what kinds of impacts… what kinds of traumatic impacts can result from financial… somebody who's been financially exploited?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, because You know, and it can… it's…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It's always devastating, of course, but for those older adults who maybe have complex care needs, you know, they may be no longer able to work, if your savings is drained from you.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you don't have the ability to just go back to work or to start a new career. You know, as a younger individual is more likely to do so if they fall on, you know, if they lose their savings due to exploitation.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Right? And so that is a huge… you know, it's even… and then that impacts housing stability, right? And just the challenges with finding safe, secure housing, with housing costs on the rise, you know, that's…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It's even, you know, and just the trauma of having lost, you know, maybe your entire life savings.

Geoff Rogers: Mmm.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: your home where I've lived here for 30, 40, 50 years, you know, it's just, it's magnified in a way that makes it so much more difficult to move forward.

Geoff Rogers: So talk a little bit about the psychological aspect of the psychological trauma that can result from financial exploitation.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, think kind of what along the lines of what I was just saying is that the, the, the immense challenge and the trauma of how do you rebuild.

Geoff Rogers: Mmh.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, when you have.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: so many decades of life and work experience if your finances are drained, if you've now lost that. The ability and… not that it can't happen, but the immense difficulty in psychologically having to start over at.

Geoff Rogers: Recover.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Live, right?

Geoff Rogers: Mmh.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Especially if there are complex care needs or health challenges that that person is experiencing. We also know that in older life, unfortunately, people, you know, lose their social circles, become smaller due to not working, also due to people passing away, or moving away, or changes in their health.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And so having the network of support is often not the same too.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And so, you know, operating out of a place and space of trauma can lead to just higher levels of loneliness, which, you know, that loss of social connection really can contribute to one's decline health-wise and just ability to function and operate as they normally did. So the repercussions and the fallout

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Is often just much more severe because, you know, psychologically, because there are, you know, there's a lifetime of work, of savings, you know, to get to this point of having a home, wherever that may be, of, you know, all that you have accomplished, and to have someone drain that or take that from you.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, is… is…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: is magnified and is much, it can be much more intense than younger individuals and younger people.

Geoff Rogers: And how does shame factor into this?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Oh, shame is so huge. And I'm glad you said that because people often think, especially with the scams that are, I think, you know, we hear about that more with the scams from strangers. So the sweetheart scams, obituary scams, like, how could I be so stupid that I did this? You know, like, how could I fall for that? How could I not see that this was happening?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And, you know, that is also a challenge in moving past and moving forward because

Victoria Ferguson-Young: They just, you know, this obviously the loss of what you have lost, but then just feeling like, how could I, you know, if you're an accomplished professional who's done whatever you have or however long you've worked or you've raised a family, but then you've lost everything due to a scam, you know, that those implications and, you know, just psychologically getting past that is so huge. And then

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know the the trauma can lead to increases in in depression and again the isolation and loneliness as well you know people feel shame they oftentimes don't want to come out and be in community they don't want to come out and go places you know there could be embarrassment that comes and so again these things compound whereas you know it's not just operating as one but then there's so many

Victoria Ferguson-Young: factors that are at play here. And it can just be a lot more difficult to make friends and to build community in terms of age.

Geoff Rogers: Trust.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes, of course. And trust. Yeah. Absolutely. It's much.

Geoff Rogers: And I and so I wonder.

Geoff Rogers: I want… so I wonder if…

Geoff Rogers: When you have trust that's seriously compromised.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Mmhm.

Geoff Rogers: Is it… it's not just limited to…

Geoff Rogers: money or resources. It's, it's, it's kind of broader in a sense.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Oh!

Geoff Rogers: I don't trust… Yeah. Any system.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And it absolutely, yes, it absolutely impacts, you know, I can't trust going to an agency for assistance or I can't trust, you know, whomever. And then this becomes.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Again, can contribute to a lack of connection, lack of, you know, assistance and help that's needed because you don't trust, you know, because the trust is gone and to be able to build that, you know, to, to be able to trust again, you know, is just a way that the trauma can manifest, you know, like in not being able to or having difficulty is a way that the trauma can manifest. So yes, you're absolutely right in that.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It is so. It can be so difficult to

Victoria Ferguson-Young: and we see that with, you know, when we do trainings for advocates, and thinking of, you know, just some of the internal barriers that older adults are experiencing. And, you know, if there's been a previous situation in which, you know, seeking help

Victoria Ferguson-Young: resulted in a negative consequence or, you know, in another loss in some way, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to do that again. I'm not, I'm not.

Geoff Rogers: Right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Reach out for that or I'm not going to tell someone or I'm not going to tell friends or family because they took advantage of that, you know, so yes, absolutely, it's going to be a domino effect, that ultimately.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And, you know, for good reason, of course, if your trust has been broken, you know, you do want to protect yourself, that's a protection strategy. But it often then results in, you know, just that lack of getting the assistance or help that's needed to be able to move forward.

Geoff Rogers: Does this manifest differently for men versus women? And I apologize for…

Geoff Rogers: it's… there's no longer… it's no longer binary men versus women, but I'm just wondering, broadly speaking,

Geoff Rogers: Does it, does this kind of trauma manifest differently? Have you noticed?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Well, you know, we, we, we hear about in that we've noticed is that yes, with, with male victims, it, it can be more difficult to, you know, to disclose that you.

Geoff Rogers: Okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, experience, been exploited, that you're, you know, or that, you know, someone, someone got you in some way. It can be more difficult to, to admit that there can be, you know, even more

Victoria Ferguson-Young: I think socially, you know, there's addition, there's more of an acceptance, with older women, who are, who are victims, and so,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, that absolutely, you know, there's, there's, there can be, it can be easier sometimes for

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, for women to share and to disclose the bounds that they've experienced. Right. And with, with older male victims, it can be a lot more challenging, you know, due to, you know, just societal beliefs on stoicism. You're supposed to hold it together. Yeah.

Geoff Rogers: You know, nobody…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: break you, you're a strong man, you know, you're the, you know, in some, in, you know, some household, you're the head of the household and, you know, this to be, shocked that now, I mean, of course this can go between both genders, you know, and, and all genders.

Geoff Rogers: Yeah, no, yeah.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: It's not it's it's, you know, more of a generalization. But yes, it can absolutely be, you know, just more difficult to.

Geoff Rogers: Exce.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, to navigate and to handle that trauma.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: With male victims, if they're, you know, again, because financially we know that men are often considered breadwinners or have acquired more income than women or higher wage earners.

Geoff Rogers: Oh, okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: to have a loss, you know, psychologically can feel like more of a, you know.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: I think it's all traumatic, but yes, I think, you know, for men who feel as though it never happens to them, they can't be victims. You know, I can absolutely imagine that it is. It could be much more. It can be.

Geoff Rogers: It sort of… it… it…

Geoff Rogers: It, it counters the idea that men are strong and, and sort of probably to some extent.

Geoff Rogers: Challenges their perception of their.

Geoff Rogers: how they see themselves. I didn't want to say the masculinity, because it's not always about masculinity, but it… you know, it does… it's… I… it's interesting, it's very interesting, and I… So, when you were,

Geoff Rogers: If you could just talk really quickly about, when you're training.

Geoff Rogers: And I guess I'm sort of really fascinated by the concept of shame. I'm really interested

Geoff Rogers: How do you… is there one… can you give us, like, one way that you…

Geoff Rogers: You guide people to be able to… frontline service providers I'm usually talking about, or advocates, to engage people who are experiencing shame as a result of abuse.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes, I mean, we train consistently on the, you know, trauma-informed approach and survivor-centered approach so that there is a deeper understanding of how trauma can present and show up.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, and shame as well, which, you know, can be a manifestation of trauma. You know, in that, in Italy, what trauma is, that trauma is the response to, you know, an incident, a situation, an occurrence, you know, that severely hurt, harmed someone, and that what, you know, the trauma is the outcome of that. Right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And so, you know, we… yes, we train extensively on that, so that service providers are aware of what to expect, that, you know, if… and understanding the time that it may take for, you know, I think especially with older adults,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: to even share that they've experienced, you know, abuse. You know, we just talked about how difficult it can be to talk about it, you know, and for… for older adults at this time, again, baby boomers and the silent generation who… you didn't talk about what happened.

Geoff Rogers: No.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: out to people. You just don't do it. So it may take 345, you know, conversations before someone discloses, you know, maybe fully about what they've experienced. And so those type of

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, just strategies, if you will, and approaches have to be very carefully considered that there is additional time often in working with older adults, that there's an awareness about even historical trauma that, you know, older adults have experienced. Again, we talked about discrimination over the lifetime, you know, from those from native or, you know, indigenous communities, you know.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Okay, okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: how they can show up for other immigrants as well, those who maybe have limited English proficiency, you know, just how trauma that they have experienced can show up. But as a service provider.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: it's important to be aware that even how you set up your environment for, for a conversation, you know, there's, there's some, there's, there's multiple aspects, surrounding trauma-informed approach and also survivor-centered that, you know, you find out what that person wants. It's not, you know, I think oftentimes it's this.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, this is what you do. This is the process.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And there has to be tailored responses, the opportunity to let a survivor share what they need, and that they're the expert in their life. And so, these are all examples of how to

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know really consider you know when someone is is dealing going coming back to to shame you know creating the space and environment to try to build trust and rapport let them take the time that they need understand that they may need additional time let them letting them know that you know however they how much they want to share or not share is okay you know that you can provide them with options of what they'd like to do to do safety planning with them to help to build

Victoria Ferguson-Young: their sense of agency and, you know, surrounding what they want to have happen next. These are all strategies that help to really, again, center that survivor so that, you know, they can take steps, you know, toward progress and to be in a healthier and more safe space and place.

Geoff Rogers: Victoria, so let's shift a bit and talk about GLP-1s and life… Extended life, I guess we're…

Geoff Rogers: Let's start generally in terms of the fact that GLP-1s have the ability to reduce.

Geoff Rogers: Healthcare risk and optimize,

Geoff Rogers: The ability of some folks to be able to

Geoff Rogers: Live a little bit longer.

Geoff Rogers: And one of the things I think about, and this is my own… I have no data to support this, so…

Geoff Rogers: Maybe we should mute this part, is the, the idea that

Geoff Rogers: Older people are gonna stay around longer.

Geoff Rogers: It's possible for older people to stay around longer in a healthier way.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Mmhm.

Geoff Rogers: And for those older people who are in positions of…

Geoff Rogers: Where power or where they have leverage.

Geoff Rogers: There's already a sense of tension generationally between people who are behind them, millennials, Gen Xers, et cetera.

Geoff Rogers: And I wonder… You know, my wonder is, is…

Geoff Rogers: are, you know, and this is just my own thing, so you don't need to comment, and you can just say this is some old guy sort of weirdly going about something, but, I guess I wonder whether or not that's gonna…

Geoff Rogers: Open the door a little bit wider to ageism and make it a little bit more normal because you're going to have older people who are going to still be around longer.

Geoff Rogers: then maybe we should be thinking about their retirement dates, or whatever. That's one… that's a sort of digression, but I think, generally speaking, if we could start talking… what are your, you know, what are your perceptions in terms of aging and GLP-1s?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a, I agree that I think that's a, it's a likely reality that as these medications are becoming more widespread, you know, at one point there was a.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: There was a lot in the news about the fact that they were so expensive and that there were people who could not access them.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: That's another issue, but, I know that there have been many are now, like, available in pill form, which is a much lower cost. There's some government subsidies making some $50, so the access is increasing. So, yes, there's very likely that more will

Victoria Ferguson-Young: continue, you know, will take it, which could impact longevity. I think, you know, things I've been reading have, I don't think there's, there's.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: we don't know conclusively, but it's very likely, right, that, you know, longevity can, you know, increase, and GLP-1s would impact that. So, absolutely, we could see there being more of

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, an attack, if you will, on older adults. You know, it also raises for those who, you know, I also think about with more longevity requires more resources, right? So thinking about financial stability as people get older, if you outlive your retirement funds or if you, you know, start, you know, but we also see sometimes with older adults.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: With those who are of limited means, lifespan and healthspan is not what it is for those who have more affluence.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: But, you know, we are seeing in Congress, there's, yes, as you mentioned, lots of tension surrounding older adults who are still serving.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: And I firmly believe that's, you know, rooted more so in, in ageism and that they've.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Then, more than the fact that, you know, just their age. They're just old. Yeah.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Like, because it's just too old, they're just too old, they don't know this, they don't know that. Well, there are younger individuals who don't know things, but you learn, right? So there's no reason why an older adult can't learn more about AI as younger individuals or children learn, right? So we can all still learn. There's never, we're never at a point where we can't learn anything. So yes, I think it can open up, it can absolutely

Victoria Ferguson-Young: open up more of a focus in older adults. Also think about, you know, the impact in…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: The great transfer of wealth that is, you know, being reported and talked about with baby boomers in particular passing on, or passing away, or passing their, you know, net,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Savings and all to their children and millennials and Gen Z and what that, the significance of that too. You know, so there's multiple.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, that doesn't happen as companies and wealth management firms and all and and banks are preparing for, you know.

Geoff Rogers: Right.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: There's… that's another impact. So yes, there could be a huge impact across the board. You know, also, what does that mean for our care systems? If people are living longer, you know, like, even with GLP-1s, I think…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: I think you also have to look at comprehensive health with that too and you know we talked about many other factors that contribute to healthspan but if you do have to live in assisted living for a longer time or you want to you know just there being a creation of more housing for older adults and so I mean the impact is significant and is something that you know.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: We must really think about, plan for.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, in a way where we are.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: preparing and accommodating and, you know, and older adults in not seeing this as a problem. You know, I think it's, like, oftentimes older adults are seen as a problem. Why don't they just go away? You know, that's communicated over and over, you know, in a way that

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, we don't… we don't typically see with younger individuals. There's much more of appreciation for their newness than for older adults. So, yeah, you know, but it's…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: it's interesting to think about, like, what will this mean in another 20 years? You know, if we see…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: huge trends in people's lifestyle. We also know GLP-1s don't work for everyone, too, though. That's another point. Some people, it does not work, they can't take it. But there's a lot of exciting research coming out about how they could potentially help with

Victoria Ferguson-Young: addressing dementia, addiction issues.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, we know about the metabolic diseases. So there's a lot of potential to really impact lifespan and healthspan. And so it's very interesting to think about and really compelling to think about just what these impacts will be and how, you know, and how we as a society will adjust to them.

Geoff Rogers: Yeah, yeah. And you know what the other thing I was thinking is, is that

Geoff Rogers: If these things, you know.

Geoff Rogers: Oh, gosh, I hope this is not the beginning of, like, a sci-fi movie where suddenly you realize that GLPA1s are the devil. But, assuming that that's not the case, one of the things I think that's…

Geoff Rogers: Interesting about what you're saying is essentially.

Geoff Rogers: That our understanding of social determinants of health are going to change.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes.

Geoff Rogers: That, thinking about that alone, it's like.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes. Oh, wow.

Geoff Rogers: Wow.

Geoff Rogers: Okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: ethics behind that.

Geoff Rogers: Yes.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, who gets access? Who, you know, who's, who's getting left behind? Are we extending life for everyone? Like there's, there's so much to think about in there.

Geoff Rogers: I mean, it's it's it's kind of on the I kind of think it's on the level of the introduction of AI.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Right.

Geoff Rogers: In terms of how we, how we unders… how we… Understand…

Geoff Rogers: the impact… well, it's not the impact. How we understand what's possible

Geoff Rogers: In terms of health care, it's sort of just, you know, assuming that these effects last and that there's no significant number of side effects, and as you, you know, as you pointed out, there are some people who unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know.

Geoff Rogers: GLP-1s don't have the effect. Part of, you know, part of this discussion is sort of the result of me.

Geoff Rogers: there was a February issue of The New Yorker, which is going to be in the show notes, there's a link in the show notes, in which it was a very extensive article about the impacts of

Geoff Rogers: Particularly, I think it was Ozemp

Geoff Rogers: And it was really just really fascinating to read.

Geoff Rogers: And you, you change somebody's trajectory, particularly if you're thinking about somebody who's like.

Geoff Rogers: 55, 60 years old, and they gain weight, as a lot of people when they get older do. I'm not even talking about people who are obese, or I'm not even talking about people who have diabetes. Just being able to sort of

Geoff Rogers: check that weight loss, that weight gain, and sort of, it's almost like you're moving the clock back a little.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Mmhm.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, I mean, it can, it can definitely mean that. And I think, you know, it's also then important to think about

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, I'm thinking about just, like, the holistic well-being of that person, right? So, in living longer, you know, what does that mean for your access to healthcare? Does that mean you're now maybe able to work longer if you're not financially secure? You know, like, there's…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: it's really interesting to think about what that means, but I think we have to just also recognize in, how healthy aging, longevity, healthspan, you know, depends on many factors that

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, but how GLP-1s could impact that, I'm still curious about, you know, it's like to see, does that mean that people have more energy or able to work out more? Will they do it, you know, too? It's like, you know, just social, you know, psychologically, you know?

Geoff Rogers: Well.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Wait, do I still need to, you know, does that mean I'm now eating healthy and nutritious food? You know, like, what, there's, because even still, if all, if GLP-1s are the only factor,

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, does that mean that they alone will, you know, or is it, or is it because of the GOP one that, you know, again, maybe someone can work longer and so increase their financial security? Does it mean that they.

Geoff Rogers: Oh, yeah.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: you know, have better access to healthcare? You know, what is it? What are the implications?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: What will the implications be? Because I think right now I seem to have more questions about.

Geoff Rogers: No, it's too early to.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Thank you.

Geoff Rogers: I think if you were starting to spout answers, people would be like, OK, who are these two?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah.

Geoff Rogers: You know, one of the things that does happen is it has an impact on your relationships.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Mmm.

Geoff Rogers: So, and particularly if you're in a partnered relationship or a marriage and one of you has experienced significant weight loss and sometimes it's weight loss and then there's more sexual appetite and sometimes there's less sexual, you know, but it's…

Geoff Rogers: So… I guess… it's like AI, you just don't know the extent of what it…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yes.

Geoff Rogers: you know, what's gonna happen to you. And it's like, to sort of speculate, it's, you know, this is, this part of the conversation, but it's interesting to sort of think about, because…

Geoff Rogers: As you think about people who serve older people, particularly older people who are being abused.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Okay.

Geoff Rogers: it…

Geoff Rogers: it makes engagement… makes you… how you contemplate engagement, contemplate who's in front of you, because we sort of tend to believe we know based on what we see and some information, right? And now…

Geoff Rogers: Throw this in, and this could be, you know, this could be…

Geoff Rogers: where, you know, how when people say, oh, you don't… you look younger. Well, you know, it is possible that this is a manifestation of something.

Geoff Rogers: The other thing, I think, also, is there is this ability to address things like morbid obesity that's…

Geoff Rogers: Fairly… you know, fairly…

Geoff Rogers: significant. And I think… and the reason why I think about it is that it affects our society disproportionately to any other society.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Yeah, yeah, it does. And It is fascinating to think about. And again, I also think about, you know.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: I'm thinking about the access piece, because if access does not continue to increase, or what if it becomes restricted again, or what if the prices go up, what does that mean, right? So, the powers that be, you know, how it is regulated or not, you know, there's still so many factors

Victoria Ferguson-Young: to consider. And so, I mean, I'm in a position of thinking it's very exciting for those who are in need, who especially have health conditions and health issues that nothing else has worked for, more than just weight loss. But, you know, I think also the weight loss

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, our society has a fixation on thinness and.

Geoff Rogers: Dam.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: So everyone who's in a larger body is not necessarily unhealthy. But this thought of if you don't have metabolic disease, but you are at a higher weight, then should you take it?

Geoff Rogers: Yeah, okay.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, there's, there's, there's so much to tease apart.

Geoff Rogers: That's a, that's a really… And culturally, and then think about people, yeah.

Geoff Rogers: there's a sameness, and it's really interesting, I don't know if you… in the New York Times this week, at least I'm remembering, this week,

Geoff Rogers: There was, in this fashion section, there was a article where

Geoff Rogers: the writer was talking about, and I don't remember which fashion designer, but it was a fashion designer who was sort of turning their back on extreme thinness, but they talked about it was not an ozempic style, which is kind of interesting.

Geoff Rogers: And what I also heard when you were talking about the fact that not everybody, that thin isn't the thing, is

Geoff Rogers: We've been talking, you know, we've been talking about so many things about culture, but we've also been talking about how there are other people

Geoff Rogers: Other… no, sorry. What I meant is, is that people from different cultures have different standards of beauty.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: That's.

Geoff Rogers: And we need to be able, our different settings of health, let's actually.

Geoff Rogers: Not talk about beauty and what I think.

Geoff Rogers: Is important about what you were saying and what you said today is to think is to really sort of understand the complexity and to apply that complexity even to something like this to say not everybody needs to lose 40 pounds not everybody needs to be read thin I think that's

Geoff Rogers: That's… That's a significant thing.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Absolutely, and I think it's… I think that…

Victoria Ferguson-Young: what this brings about is how important, as we talk about AI, to think critically about, you know, about these advancements. They are exciting, there's a lot they can do, but what are the implications? Who can access this? Who's most, you know, affected? You know, how do we respond as a society if there is a dramatic shift in

Victoria Ferguson-Young: You know, in lifestyle, and what does that, you know, what does that mean? What does that look like? Will there be, you know, age discrimination? Will it maybe increase if more older adults have to work longer? And, you know, workplace discrimination? You know, there's so much to think about, but I think that, you know, as I know we've got to close out, it's so important that we are thinking critically about it, you know?

Victoria Ferguson-Young: We are asking these questions, we are wrestling with this, you know, we are really thinking about what the implications are, who's impacted, you know, and how we can, you know, best support as, you know, with even the outside of this advancement, other advancements, people are living longer, life expectancy is increasing, so how can our systems are, you know, really support, you know.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: older adults, so that lifespan. How can our society, coming back to that piece, really be a space of equity and justice, where older… where people can live and age with dignity and the freedom that they need, you know, to live their best lives?

Geoff Rogers: Yeah, that's a perfect place for us to stop. This was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Victoria Ferguson-Young: Always. Thank you. Look forward to the next time.

Geoff Rogers: I that's exactly what I was my thoughts.