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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Courtney Nugent: I think it's also important too, like as. Leaders is like telling your team, Hey, I'm gonna be working after 7:00 PM 'cause it's what works for me and my family's schedule and whatever I have going on, I do not expect a response. And I, I feel like that's, most managers I've worked for that have had kids have said something along those lines.
[00:00:19] Courtney Nugent: Right. I'm so grateful to have that flexibility because I find myself doing that too. And I do some of my best work, like after my daughter goes down to bed and like I come down to my office, you know, it's like, 'cause you can truly focus.
[00:00:31] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:33] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public.
[00:00:43] Shannon Curran: Hi everyone. We have a content warning for this episode. We discuss topics such as postnatal and prenatal depression, mental health struggles, and parental burnout. Please listen with care.
[00:00:55] Mallory Lee: Today we're joined by Courtney Nugent. Welcome, Courtney. Thanks, Mallory. Excited to be here. Awesome. Just a few really quick questions to get out of the way up front so people know a little bit more about you first, how many children do you have?
[00:01:10] Courtney Nugent: I have one child. I have a 2-year-old daughter,
[00:01:14] Mallory Lee: 2-year-old daughter. Awesome. Okay. And do you work from home? Do you stay home? What's your work like?
[00:01:21] Courtney Nugent: I work fully remote, which is incredible for this phase of parenting that I'm in. The woman on my team also lives in the same area as me, so we'll occasionally I like work from a work bar together.
[00:01:31] Courtney Nugent: I was working with Shannon. We would get together occasionally, but yeah, no commitment to go into the office.
[00:01:35] Mallory Lee: And how about the rest of your family? Do you have a partner at home with you too and all of that?
[00:01:39] Courtney Nugent: Yeah. My husband actually works fully remotely as well, since COVID has been fully remote, which has been.
[00:01:46] Courtney Nugent: Interesting and awesome, um, as parents, but we actually, my office in our basement and his office is right next door. So it's great we get to see each other throughout the day and yeah, just get like, don't have that commute time. I, my prior job I was going into the office in, in Boston, commuting quite a bit like four days a week.
[00:02:04] Courtney Nugent: So it's been a really nice change case to be home.
[00:02:08] Shannon Curran: Speaking of that last job that you commuted four days into the city in, so for anyone that doesn't know, which most people probably don't that are listening, is that Courtney and I worked together and we've now worked together multiple times. So worked together at Open View and then I brought her on to lead marketing at Blue Onion.
[00:02:25] Shannon Curran: What I, they were my client and we actually were pregnant at the same time. Courtney has a really interesting. Story about navigating kind of career changes while knowing that you have a family coming. Right. So we'd love to hear a little bit about, maybe let's go back to the beginning of your career when, as you were building it, right, like thinking about did you always know you wanted to be a parent?
[00:02:46] Shannon Curran: Was that something in the back of your mind as you were building your career? And then when did that start to shift? Like when you started to want to actually like. Act on that, like go into parenthood.
[00:02:56] Courtney Nugent: Yeah, and I just have to comment, Shannon and I have known each other for probably like five years at this point, but like we had been through some pretty incredible.
[00:03:05] Courtney Nugent: Professional and personal, both challenges that we've been through together. So I appreciate Shannon so much as a friend, but also as a, a coach and mentor. But, um, yeah, so it's, Shannon seen me through a lot in my career and becoming a mom and like she said, you were pregnant at the same time and that was super special too.
[00:03:23] Courtney Nugent: But lemme talk a little bit about my career. I think, you know, one thing that stands out to me, my first job at a startup. I worked for a woman, Lindsay Ferria, who's incredible and had, at the time, she had two young children and then later three young children when I worked for her, and just a great mentor and coach and like really helped me to get where I am.
[00:03:45] Courtney Nugent: But she was such a great example for me of a working mom who in my mind I was always like, how does she do it all? She has three young kids. She runs like director of marketing, managing a team. And so there were women like her throughout my career who I saw step into motherhood and have pretty high impact, somewhat like demanding, intense careers.
[00:04:11] Courtney Nugent: My sister's also someone that has had three young children over the last few years, and, um. Maintained a pretty incredible career and like figured it out. And then of course, many friends too in more recent years who have started families, but I think even from like my early twenties working for, you know, a woman in her mid thirties starting her family, and it, it always just seemed possible.
[00:04:34] Courtney Nugent: Like, and I was admiring like what she was able to accomplish and other women that I saw, but like I wanted that I always knew. I wanted that. To answer your question, Shannon, like. Later in my career, I met my husband in my like mid twenties. And it's funny, when we got engaged we were like, oh, we're gonna wait, you know, two, three years before having kids and, whoops,
[00:04:58] Shannon Curran: I'm just kidding.
[00:05:02] Courtney Nugent: Yeah, I not pregnant like eight months after we got married and year and a half leading up to my. Through my wedding and afterward where life was in perspective for me, where it was like, what are we waiting for? You know, we're gonna figure this out. And I think I realized you're never really ready to have your first child, right?
[00:05:19] Courtney Nugent: Like. You can wait and wait and wait to have the perfect amount of money and the house and like whatever stability feels like for you. And for me it was just life felt short. And so my husband and I were like, yeah, let's go for it. And so it happened a lot sooner than we had planned in some ways. But I think life shaped my perspective that I was, I was ready to be a mom and I was working in a company that had incredible healthcare.
[00:05:43] Courtney Nugent: Which was obviously like a really great perk that I wanted to take advantage of too is, is knowing that I had that kind of safety net too, so. Yeah, that's kind of how I got to becoming a mom.
[00:05:54] Shannon Curran: Yeah. There was the joke around you come here to have the free baby. Like that was like a real joke that we had.
[00:06:02] Shannon Curran: Like the caliber of the talent was amazing and a part of me was like, is that 'cause they offer free babies? Like it's gotta be part of,
[00:06:10] Courtney Nugent: our boss used to say that, come here, I have free babies.
[00:06:14] Shannon Curran: Yeah,
[00:06:14] Mallory Lee: that is a hell of a recruiting strategy. I would
[00:06:18] Shannon Curran: seriously,
[00:06:19] Mallory Lee: I think people would definitely buy into that.
[00:06:21] Mallory Lee: That's great.
[00:06:22] Shannon Curran: Mallory stayed at a company just to be on the phone plan, as we remember. So there's gotta be,
[00:06:27] Courtney Nugent: yeah, you understand these perks. It's worth it.
[00:06:31] Mallory Lee: The bar is low for me. Apparently. I feel the same as you, Courtney. I worked with some incredible, incredible women at ExactTarget back in the day. Who were building families, and they were like the VPs of our marketing department at the same time.
[00:06:49] Mallory Lee: And every once in a while their kids would pop into the office and it just set this example from the very start where I was like, this is badass. Like this is the way to do it, because however they figured this out, they've got, you know. Both. And so I wanna invite some of those women on the show. Yeah.
[00:07:09] Mallory Lee: Shannon, like they're already on my list guest. Perfect. Because they're like the people who literally inspired me to feel like it could be possible.
[00:07:16] Courtney Nugent: Yeah. They set the tone. And I also think that back then, you know, I'm in my mid thirties now, so this was 10 plus years ago. Work from home working remotely was not as accepted.
[00:07:27] Courtney Nugent: Flexibility in the workplace I don't think was as accepted or. You know, so it was like you were going, leaving the office, taking your kid to the doctor is going back to the office, right? And so I appreciate those women who kind of came before us and set that example. There's still a long way to go, but I'm glad we've made at least some changes in the direction, I guess
[00:07:46] Shannon Curran: I remember there was a woman at QuickBase that came into the office.
[00:07:50] Shannon Curran: She had her baby in March of 2020, but she came in every day. And she was so pregnant and I was like, I now have been pregnant twice. And I'm like, I could barely make it to my couch. Like, how did she do this? And court, I know you ended up going into the office a lot at the end of your pregnancy, right?
[00:08:05] Shannon Curran: Like, 'cause there was kind of a, a swing to back to office and then I think you eventually were like, can we fix this? Because it was so hard.
[00:08:13] Courtney Nugent: Yeah. That was a real challenge in my pregnancy. I'm really grateful. I had a fairly like standard pregnancy, if you will. I mean, it was still hard Right? But like, I didn't have any,
[00:08:21] Shannon Curran: yeah.
[00:08:22] Courtney Nugent: Serious complications. I'm super grateful for that. But I do remember multiple days on the tea in Boston, like the Trump system,
[00:08:29] Shannon Curran: I can't even imagine,
[00:08:30] Courtney Nugent: like sweating and almost passing out, like feeling lightheaded and Oh no, offering me a seat, which was so nice and like, but it's just like. Oh God, I remember writing an email to my boss 'cause you kind of had to get approved to work from home more than, you know, once a week or something.
[00:08:46] Courtney Nugent: Like, I am having dizzy fainting spells on the, the MBTA. Can I please work from home? Like this is not, and I, it's interesting 'cause I was, before coming on this podcast, I was kind of reflecting on that time and I remember where we used to work. We had like high top desks in the room we worked in, and so it was like a standing desk or you could sit in like an elevated chair.
[00:09:11] Courtney Nugent: And I remember being like seven months pregnant and I would have to get a running start to get into the chair.
[00:09:16] Shannon Curran: It's like a hurdle. Yeah, yeah,
[00:09:18] Courtney Nugent: yeah. And I think there were a few other pregnant women there. That happened to have different seating arrangements. But I remember one of the partners looked at me doing that and goes, we need to get you a different desk.
[00:09:27] Courtney Nugent: And I was like, you know what, actually, uh, yes, please.
[00:09:31] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:09:32] Shannon Curran: Accessibility
[00:09:33] Mallory Lee: in its
[00:09:33] Shannon Curran: finest. Yeah.
[00:09:34] Courtney Nugent: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So
[00:09:36] Mallory Lee: I don't know how tall you are. I'm only like five one, and so my feet, when I sit in those kinds of chairs, my feet don't touch the floor and. Yeah, so like when I was pregnant I could not sit in chairs like that because my legs would go numb.
[00:09:52] Mallory Lee: Like I don't know how you did that at all.
[00:09:54] Courtney Nugent: It's funny, I didn't think too much of it, but this person, their wife was pregnant at the same time and so I think he saw me doing this. I was like, this isn't working. So I was in the corner on like my own little desk for the rest of my pregnancy, which was good.
[00:10:06] Shannon Curran: I remember going to see you when Sebastian was like at a few months old and you, 'cause our kids are, so I have a September and you're fe, is it January or February?
[00:10:13] Courtney Nugent: End of January. We'll, last
[00:10:14] Shannon Curran: end of January. Yeah. Okay. And so Sebastian was like a few months old and I went over to see Courtney and she was like hobbling around like her poor legs.
[00:10:22] Shannon Curran: I was like, Courtney was pretty bad. Like, you know, like, listen, you know, like, like you could tell, you could say it. It's okay. You know, like there's, I saw this, uh, TikTok the other day that was like, we take pregnant women way too casually. We're just like, yeah, they're around. It's like, do you understand what's happening there?
[00:10:38] Shannon Curran: Like that is, I know we're all born that way, but it is really something else.
[00:10:41] Courtney Nugent: I don't know if you've shared the story yet, so you don't, whatever, but when you had to go to an executive meeting, you had to travel and you were pregnant, but you hadn't told anyone yet. Yeah,
[00:10:48] Shannon Curran: no, I didn't tell this story, I don't think.
[00:10:50] Courtney Nugent: And you had to hide it, but you were sharing a house. With all the executives. Right. You were all at an Airbnb together?
[00:10:56] Shannon Curran: I have not told that story. Yeah. Well also, like classic startup, we're going on a, like a leadership offsite and they book us one Airbnb, which has never happened to me in my life. I don't, Mallory, has that ever happened to you where like you all stand the same place?
[00:11:09] Shannon Curran: No.
[00:11:10] Courtney Nugent: No.
[00:11:11] Shannon Curran: Yeah, sus, I didn't love it.
[00:11:12] Mallory Lee: I've gone to stay at a. An exec, team members like Cabin once. It was like their personal home.
[00:11:20] Shannon Curran: Yeah. Similar.
[00:11:21] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Dicey. Dicey.
[00:11:23] Shannon Curran: Yeah. There was one other woman on the executive team, but still, and of course she clocked my pregnancy immediately. She literally was like, she looked at me like, and I was like, stop looking into me.
[00:11:31] Shannon Curran: I was like, but yeah, I had an A, it was also, the worst part was the eight hour flight that was the wor like to San Francisco, because there was like, we sat on like the tarmac for a while and it's a seven and a half hour flight from Boston, so. And I just kind of gotten over the major nausea of the fir.
[00:11:45] Shannon Curran: But if I had had, if this had been my second pregnancy, I wouldn't have been able to do that because I was so sick. And they were like, Hey, do we wanna order sushi for dinner? And I was like, yeah, I'm a vegetarian, which I am, but I do eat fish. But they didn't know that. And then of course, they're like, let's go out to a bar.
[00:12:00] Shannon Curran: And I was like, yeah. And then I told them after and they were so nice about it. They were like, oh my God, why didn't you tell us? I was like, I don't know. It was my first kid. I was very gun shy about telling people like. I didn't know how they'd react. And, well, Courtney, maybe we should get into this. So during your pregnancy at your job, there was some changes that happened at work.
[00:12:19] Shannon Curran: Can you explain like what that felt like? Maybe talk us through that situation, how you navigated it and how you kind of came out the other side.
[00:12:26] Courtney Nugent: Yeah, so Mallory, I guess for your context, I. I was laid off when I was eight months pregnant. Part of like a broad based structural changes, but it was unexpected.
[00:12:38] Courtney Nugent: Um, didn't anticipate it by any means. So I know there are women that go through this. My sister was laid off in the hospital after giving birth, like two days after giving birth. This happens, right? And so. And I think you plan throughout your whole pregnancy, right? Like what's your maternity leave plan?
[00:12:54] Courtney Nugent: How much time do you get and what you know, is your partner gonna stack their leave after? Right? There's so much planning. Shannon, I think in the first episode you mentioned how you signed up Sebastian for daycare when you were like 15 weeks pregnant. I was the same way. Like my sister had said she had babies during COVID.
[00:13:12] Courtney Nugent: She's like, you gotta get on those wait lists. So I, you know, before I'd even told people in my life I was on daycare wait lists, you know, and so you just spend so much time and energy planning, right, for your maternity leave, your return to work. So it just like rocked me and I think. At first, I was so overwhelmed, obviously, and worried, and you know, how am I gonna support my family?
[00:13:33] Courtney Nugent: And then pretty quickly, I remember going to target the next day and I was like, Ooh, I can go to Target in the middle of the day. It's funny that I remember this in like a target aisle, but us millennial moms will relate to everything just like a sense of calm. Like I cannot let myself mentally spiral because I have a baby inside me that I am growing and like my.
[00:13:55] Courtney Nugent: Mental health and physical health matter, right? Like, I have one month left to grow this baby and, and bring her earth side healthy. And so I gotta, I gotta protect my peace. And so that nurturing. Instinctual like feeling of like, I just remember feeling so protective of her and my pregnancy that last month.
[00:14:14] Courtney Nugent: Like I didn't, I didn't go out, I didn't do much. I nested, but I was able to pretty quickly like pull myself out thanks to people like Shannon and close friends who were supporting me and my husband and you know, family. And I will say too, like. I am coming from a place of privilege where if I was out of work for a long time and didn't have, like my family could support us, like there are people I could have leaned on, right?
[00:14:36] Courtney Nugent: So it wasn't like I truly needed to worry to the extent I was initially, but I think I was pretty quickly able to just like focus. I remember journaling a lot, getting my thoughts out and like found that to be very therapeutic. But ultimately I ended up in a, a really like good situation and I was able to.
[00:14:53] Courtney Nugent: I bring my baby home and have plenty of time with her and did a lot of reflecting on where I wanted to be in my career. But yeah, certainly like wasn't expecting that. But it's good to be prepared for 'cause. Well, I guess you just can't be prepared with motherhood, right? You can do everything to plan and things will still change.
[00:15:10] Courtney Nugent: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Mallory Lee: Well, and just the job market and tech companies these days, you have to kind of expect the unexpected anyway. So I think that that just kind of adds fuel to all the fires that we're already trying to put out everywhere. So, okay. Did you end up getting some form of the free baby, like you were promised A free baby?
[00:15:34] Mallory Lee: So what happened? Did they kind of take care of you through, through that delivery and like your severance package and stuff?
[00:15:41] Courtney Nugent: Yeah, for sure. That helped with my sense of calm, right? Like once I started working through. What are those logistics that come with this? And no, I was very much supported and that brought me a lot of peace of mind and yeah, I miss that great healthcare and they saw that through, so it honestly ended up being fine.
[00:15:59] Courtney Nugent: But still in that moment of shock, when you learn that and you, your head just starts to spiral, right? Like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? What are we gonna do? And then ultimately being, okay, I got that free baby
[00:16:10] Shannon Curran: at eight months pregnant. I couldn't even like manage if we forgot to take the trash out.
[00:16:14] Shannon Curran: That's also like at a really high emotional time. So to manage any kind of stress, I feel like work in general is hard at the end. Like I think I, I tell people all the time that like pregnancy in those last like four weeks, I would say five weeks is a different, that's pre-birth. That is not pregnancy. It is a different ball game like you are.
[00:16:33] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:16:33] Shannon Curran: Like I don't know Mallory, what your experience was. 'cause Mallory has done it three times. Like one of the only steady things, like you'd been at that job for years. Right? It's not like it was a new job to you. So it's just any kind of change at that time. It must have been really challenging.
[00:16:46] Courtney Nugent: Yeah.
[00:16:46] Courtney Nugent: Yeah.
[00:16:47] Mallory Lee: And everything just feels magnified regardless of what it is. And that's just the emotions of, of life at that point, I think.
[00:16:54] Courtney Nugent: Yeah, for sure. And I, I managed a team and I think that was maybe the hardest thing too, is like, okay, how am I gonna support them in finding their next roles? But that maybe hurt the most out of anything, was like, gosh, I've, I've mentored and hired these people and now like, their lives are being upended too.
[00:17:12] Courtney Nugent: And they all ended up on their feet of course. And they're, they're great. There's a lot that comes with it. And I think too. If it's okay if I share this, I think it's important for people to hear. Like I certainly struggle with postpartum depression after maybe like two or three months postpartum. And part of it I think was all these big things.
[00:17:32] Courtney Nugent: I finally had a moment to like not rest. 'cause you're not resting at two months postpartum, but you know what I mean. Like first few weeks when you bring a baby home is such a whirlwinds like. Finally when I, life started to slow down a bit, it just kind of like all caught up with me, and I'm sure you each can probably relate in your own way of those hormonal changes you're going through, but also like just having those big life moments after.
[00:17:56] Courtney Nugent: Soon before giving birth, right after giving birth, Shannon went through a lot. Mm-hmm. You know, going back to work so soon after having Sebastian and like, it just kind of can all catch up with you if anyone feels that way. Like I hope people know that like so many women experience it too and it gets better.
[00:18:10] Shannon Curran: Yes,
[00:18:11] Mallory Lee: you're totally right. Any big decision when you've already got so much going on starts to feel very daunting. And this is a totally different kind of decision, but we had kind of a. An unexpected change. While we were in the hospital with our first, he had just been born and we wanted to kind of space out his vaccines.
[00:18:33] Mallory Lee: And so we were being a little high maintenance about it. And when the pediatrician came to see him for the first time, we asked about it and we said what our preferences were. And the guy was like, that's not really gonna work for me. Sorry. And he's like, you probably need to find a new doctor. And so. We were like, okay, well we feel strongly, so obviously we will find a new doctor.
[00:19:00] Mallory Lee: So then he leaves the room and I am just a mess. I'm like, my baby has no doctor. I'm sitting here in this hospital. Like, what are we gonna do? You know? And it was just this huge decision, like how do you find people who are gonna. You know, honor the way you want to do your child's healthcare stuff, but you know, not be going to some random, far away doctor's office where I, there's just so many things and I was so upset and I just remember thinking like.
[00:19:33] Mallory Lee: This is the biggest problem I've ever had in my entire life. It was so fresh. I was like literally still in the hospital.
[00:19:39] Shannon Curran: Oh, that's scary. Yeah, I think that's more common now. I know people that do delayed faxing schedules and stuff now, like that's, it's definitely more common. But I'm sure back then it was like a little new age of you.
[00:19:49] Mallory Lee: It was a tiny bit new age. We actually got so lucky that a different doctor at the same office came to like rounds the next day and I asked her, I said, you know, what are your thoughts on. Spacing these things out and she's like, oh, that's totally fine. And then I immediately broke down and I was like, will you be our babies doctor?
[00:20:10] Mallory Lee: Please
[00:20:11] Shannon Curran: proposed.
[00:20:13] Mallory Lee: I did. I did. And I could tell she just felt bad for me. She's like, yeah, of course. Like don't worry about anything. And at the time, you know, making decisions like that felt impossible. So it makes me wonder, Courtney, like. When did you start trying to make more decisions about what was gonna be next in your career?
[00:20:32] Mallory Lee: How fresh was everything when you started thinking about the future?
[00:20:35] Courtney Nugent: Yeah, I remember like I think joking with Shannon and others, like, I haven't thought about B2B marketing in like four months. This is like, wow. Like it doesn't look like a pump, so I don't know what it is.
[00:20:46] Mallory Lee: I know, Val, when you were
[00:20:47] Courtney Nugent: just sharing that story, I was thinking of lactation consultants in the hospital and just.
[00:20:52] Courtney Nugent: Oh gosh, I've had bad experience with them in general. Sorry, not in generalized. I'm, I'm sure there are great ones out there, but it's like they feel like you're doing everything wrong. They're like yelling at you like a day postpartum, and it's like, okay, please just let me be. But yeah, thinking about, you know, the first few months postpartum, like, you know, share we're hard.
[00:21:11] Courtney Nugent: So I, I wasn't in a place to. And I remember folks from my network, former coworkers reaching out when I was like six weeks postpartum. Like, Hey, here's a consulting opportunity. Would you be interested? And just feeling like, whoa. The thought of that is so overwhelming. I felt it. I was not ready. And so thankfully I was able to take the time and I feel like it was probably around four months postpartum.
[00:21:36] Courtney Nugent: Where I was like, okay, I'm getting a little structure to the day. Right. And for me, I gave birth end of January in New England, which was like, I think that added to things too. Well, the
[00:21:46] Shannon Curran: depths of despair
[00:21:48] Courtney Nugent: just in my house for like two months straight. So by the time like April May rolled around, I could actually get outside and.
[00:21:56] Courtney Nugent: You know, you just start to build a little confidence as a first time mom around that, that point you kind of figured out, hopefully you're getting a bit longer stretches of sleep, right? So mentally you're a little bit more, I don't know, present. So that summer I started networking, talking to folks and reconnecting with people I had worked with.
[00:22:18] Courtney Nugent: Started actively interviewing like that July, probably maybe that June. And so. I had time, which I'm, I'm, like I've said, very grateful for. But if I had had to start job searching, six weeks, two months, three months postpartum, I've been really hard. So before I gave birth, I thought, oh, I'll be ready. You know, I think my maternity leave was gonna be about four months anyway.
[00:22:40] Courtney Nugent: I said, go, I'll be ready to go back. But yeah, I wasn't expecting to have maybe the experience that I did, but I remember that summer starting to feel. I really motivated talking to people, reconnecting, talking about work, interviewing, getting my confidence back a little bit. It was interesting too, 'cause let's see, that was 2024.
[00:23:01] Courtney Nugent: So much had happened with AI while I had been on leave. I remember being super intimidated by that and then realizing like, we're all figuring this out together. I think, essentially. Yeah. But
[00:23:12] Mallory Lee: yeah, that's
[00:23:13] Courtney Nugent: how my, my journey progressed.
[00:23:15] Mallory Lee: I have to imagine now people who are having babies right now, they're probably like asking chat GPT, you know, I have this weird symptom.
[00:23:25] Mallory Lee: What is that? You know, that was not a thing for me.
[00:23:29] Shannon Curran: Also, scary that chat. GPT has like no sources. Like you ask it, you're like, Hey, where'd you find that? It's like, oh, I kind of made it up. You are like, oh, great. Like that's good. At least I force Claude to give you the source. You know what I mean? I'm like, Claude.
[00:23:42] Shannon Curran: Like, can you tell me where you found that? You know, like there's no, but Yeah. I'm sure people are in the middle of the night being like, so if I swaddle my baby with her right arm out, like is that close enough to God? The amount of midnight swaddles I ordered. Oh Jesus. Like $500 worth at least. Cor, I think it's really important and thank you so much for sharing your postpartum experience because I know that is something that a lot of people deal with, but also like many people also don't and it can be different.
[00:24:10] Shannon Curran: Yeah, because I actually had, I, I know that this happened like a few months before you experienced it. I actually was diagnosed with prenatal depression, which I didn't even know could exist like it was during my pregnancy. Well, I know, I have not even
[00:24:21] Mallory Lee: heard of that.
[00:24:23] Shannon Curran: I didn't either. That crazy. I failed a questionnaire.
[00:24:24] Shannon Curran: Crazy bad. I failed bad. Oh, they like asked you like how you're feeling and I put it for like my best day. I was like, you know, I don't cry like every hour. Or like, I don't wanna die all the time. You know? I mean, it was like a very, and they were like, whoa. They were like, Hey, we're gonna come back to this.
[00:24:39] Shannon Curran: And I remember being so. Scared to go on medication while I was pregnant. And this is like, I'm perfectly happy being open about this because it really saved my and my child's life, I think. And then once I got on medication in my second trimester, wow. I was a new person. And I think that's why I had such a positive postpartum experience because I was.
[00:24:58] Shannon Curran: Already in a place where this medication was working and I wasn't having, you know, 'cause it takes, what, like six weeks for some of it to kick in. It's scary. Right. And so, but then with my second, I experienced postpartum depression for the first time. Like, I had never had that. And so, and I was already working, like I was working with Courtney.
[00:25:13] Courtney Nugent: Yeah.
[00:25:14] Shannon Curran: I was like, and I was like, oh dang. But it's okay. I think that's a big, like, that is really important to say that like, sometimes you feel ready. 'cause I know Mallory, you felt like it was helpful for you to work after some of your pregnancies, right? Like, but. It just depends. It's so dependent and you just don't know how you're gonna feel.
[00:25:29] Shannon Curran: Right.
[00:25:30] Mallory Lee: And you can't plan it. So any plan you make will turn out wrong. Uh, well, I'm glad Shannon, it sounds like they caught that pretty early.
[00:25:40] Shannon Curran: I was like, so pregnancy's really sad, huh? They were like, well, yours might be sadder than most.
[00:25:49] Shannon Curran: And it also was like a crunchy midwife that was like, you need to take like medicine. And I was like, you guys barely believe in medicine. You know what I mean? Like, so that was like a lot coming from her. You know what I mean? I was like, oh yeah. Cool, cool. Yeah. Just for disclosure, I love medicine. I take it all the time.
[00:26:02] Shannon Curran: So do my kids and all their vaccines. But yeah, they did catch it early, which was really important and really important for me. So like a huge part of my prenatal care. And I know for you, Courtney, like of your postpartum care, like, and it's crazy that when you get out of that three month, like they're like, yo, you're not my patient anymore.
[00:26:20] Shannon Curran: And it's like, wait, what? Like, I'm still postpartum. What do you mean? Like 12 weeks? Doesn't, like not everything changes at 12 weeks either. Like, it's like crazy how that,
[00:26:28] Courtney Nugent: it's
[00:26:28] Shannon Curran: true works.
[00:26:29] Courtney Nugent: I remember at my six week postpartum appointment, they didn't even check me. I had a couple different tears. Like I was like, no, you're not even gonna check my stitches.
[00:26:38] Courtney Nugent: Like, they're like, no, you're good. Like, oh my God, what? Oh my goodness.
[00:26:43] Shannon Curran: Like I don't feel good. Like how do you define good?
[00:26:45] Mallory Lee: Okay. Here's a question that's related to that. Did you guys feel like your kid's pediatrician was kind of also like your doctor too?
[00:26:55] Shannon Curran: Yes.
[00:26:55] Mallory Lee: That is such a thing. And like. I had this bond with Grayson's doctor because, you know, I had to like propose to her in the hospital and everything.
[00:27:03] Mallory Lee: So I felt really close to this woman. Shout out to Connie Glass, who no longer practices, but I just remember feeling like she was my doctor too. And I was like, is this normal? Like, look at my C-section incision. Like, she was just amazing. She was so amazing. But you just need people taking care of you and, and you're also taking care of the baby.
[00:27:22] Mallory Lee: It's just a crazy, crazy situation.
[00:27:25] Shannon Curran: It is.
[00:27:25] Courtney Nugent: I felt similarly, I don't know for you, Shannon, but our pediatrician the same way I, my daughter struggled to latch with breastfeeding, so I ended up pumping exclusively for like four or so months. And I like, never don't do that.
[00:27:39] Shannon Curran: I appreciate that you did, but like damn, that's awful.
[00:27:42] Courtney Nugent: Yeah. I think that fueled some of the things that I went for. Sure. But I remember going to her, so like the first week I just. Breastfeeding was be so hard. It wasn't working. My daughter wasn't getting enough to eat. And I remember sitting in her office and I could feel my milk in the pediatrician's office.
[00:27:59] Courtney Nugent: I just started bawling my eyes out and I was just like, I can't feed her. Like what am I, you know? I'm like not a good mom. How am I gonna feed my kid? And I remember her just getting formula being like, it's okay. Plenty of people feed their kids formula like, and I don't know why, but just. She's a woman in her sixties.
[00:28:15] Courtney Nugent: She has her own children. She's like, I formula fed my kids. It just like gave me this like, huh, like it's gonna be okay. So I totally relate to what you, you said Mallory, it's like, thank God for pediatricians that ask moms how they're doing, you know, and help us through it too.
[00:28:31] Shannon Curran: I would love to talk a little bit about your job search, like when you were looking for your next role, did you, like what was the difference in how you're evaluating jobs now that you were a working parent, right?
[00:28:42] Shannon Curran: And your husband was working from home now, like when like that wasn't the case and or maybe it was. I think it probably was when you started at OpenView, but would love to hear a little bit about how your evaluation was going.
[00:28:51] Courtney Nugent: So yeah, like I said, over the summer I really started to to network connect with folks and actually our former, both Shannon and i's former boss, Margaret Kelsey, who I think you guys are gonna have on the pod too, right?
[00:29:02] Courtney Nugent: I had reached out to her for advice, for support, for coaching kind of a thing, and she had talked through like a values exercise that she had done and Shannon, she may have like encouraged you to do this too in the past, but. Literally just sitting down and documenting like, what are the top three values you want in the next place you work, right?
[00:29:21] Courtney Nugent: Whether that's freelance work or full-time in-house. And then kind of like mapping that to job descriptions and interview processes. So like. It was a bit more detailed than that, but I remember sitting down and literally working through a Google Doc of probably like two pages of reflecting on my previous role, what I liked about it, maybe like what was not as great about it, and then applying that to kinda like this value system of like in my next role, I did these three things, and one of which was flexibility.
[00:29:51] Courtney Nugent: So. My previous company, I was going into the office and commuting an hour and 15 minutes each way, and I knew that wasn't gonna kind of work as a new mom, right? Mm-hmm. Or I would need some type of flexibility around that. And so. That was one of the core values I looked for. And it didn't mean I wasn't open to going into the office.
[00:30:10] Courtney Nugent: It just the four days a week commuting into Boston. Like even though I live 25 minutes from Boston, but it takes you an hour and 15 to get there. So like, yeah,
[00:30:18] Shannon Curran: no one lives 25 minutes away.
[00:30:20] Courtney Nugent: Well, I enjoy going from the office. I really did. I, I enjoy being in the city. There's a lot I liked about it, but that was one of the core values I kind of mapped for each new role.
[00:30:30] Courtney Nugent: And I. The others were more around like, I wanted a really strong CMO or VP of marketing at the time that I could work for and learn from someone who could kind of coach and mentor me into that growth phase of what I wanted to achieve in my career. I had had that with Margaret Shannon as well. And so having that leader and mentor was kind of a key value drive for me.
[00:30:53] Courtney Nugent: And then the other piece I think was more around like comp and benefits. And like for me, I, at that point, healthcare benefits became so much more important, right? Than when you're kind of a, a married couple with no kids. It was like in my previous company, OpenView had incredible healthcare, so that was a consideration too.
[00:31:12] Courtney Nugent: And so, yeah, I use that to kind of. Evaluate different roles. I remember I interviewed for one role, they were based in New York and I was excited about the company, but they were like, yeah, you need to relocate. And talking to my husband and he's just like, such a Massachusetts, he was like, we're not, this
[00:31:27] Shannon Curran: is the town he grew up in.
[00:31:29] Shannon Curran: Well, he lived in the town he grew up in. Yeah.
[00:31:31] Courtney Nugent: It's like, this isn't gonna work for our family. I really wasn't eager to move to,
[00:31:34] Shannon Curran: he wouldn't even move to the South Shore. Like that would kill him.
[00:31:37] Courtney Nugent: Yes, exactly. She had enough. So most of the roles were fully remote that I was. Like got into processes with, but I also interviewed with Series C companies, series A, seed stage, series B, and I did that intentionally because I was coming from working at a VC firm prior to that, a series B company.
[00:31:57] Courtney Nugent: I just really wanted more exposure to like. What does a Director of Demand gen look like? Right? Or like, what does my skillset apply to? So with that, I, I think was super, actually insightful for me to go through those processes with some larger orgs and some smaller companies, and ultimately ended up at Blue Onion.
[00:32:15] Courtney Nugent: Shannon connected me to the team there. They were seed stage, I guess when I joined and just raised the series A as I was joining. So it was a great time to join, but I'd be working for Shannon as our fractional CMO, right. That was one of the core values I was looking for, even better that I already knew her and like someone I could learn from and who would coach me into this like head of marketing, VP of marketing role.
[00:32:36] Courtney Nugent: Remote company and I, I also asked intentionally during the interview process, Teddy Str, who, who hired me, he was the VP of Go to Market. I said to him, you know, Hey, I'm a new mom. I need flexibility. Like my daughter's just starting daycare. There are gonna be days where I have to move meetings or write, like he has two kids and he just.
[00:32:53] Courtney Nugent: In the interview just pulled up his Google calendar and he showed me his calendar blocks for like daycare pickup, daycare drop off some events happening at his daughter's school. Like he just showed me in that moment like, yes, I'm a working parent too and that's okay here. Aw, I love that. And so like I'd remember feeling so relieved when he showed me that.
[00:33:11] Courtney Nugent: 'cause people can say a lot in the interview process, right? But you just don't really know sometimes that you get into the culture. So yeah, I was very lucky that that is very much the case at Blue Onion.
[00:33:22] Shannon Curran: Yeah. He was like a classic definition of daddying out loud. Being like, Hey, so I'm gonna be late today because I'm going to, my daughter's like Readathon at kindergarten or whatever.
[00:33:31] Shannon Curran: And I know, Mallory, you do a really good job at Momming out loud in this way too. You're like, I'm gonna make it to this thing. And Mallory works full-time, right? You're really present, Mallory, like with your kids and you're, you make sure to make it to their things and like, do as much as you can. Right.
[00:33:44] Shannon Curran: And be really present, which I think is very cool. Especially as like a VP at a company, right. Shows everyone else that they can do it too.
[00:33:51] Courtney Nugent: Yeah.
[00:33:52] Mallory Lee: Yeah. I mean, that's the goal, but like Courtney said, the flexibility has to be part of the company culture. For something like that to work, I think that there is a level of, you know, boundary that you need to have, but you can't be, you know, hiding the fact that you're a parent.
[00:34:10] Mallory Lee: Like that's just not gonna work. So you know the right answer, as usual. It's like somewhere in the middle. But I also. Made it clear to everyone that I value that flexibility because you know, it goes both ways. Am I working at nine o'clock several nights a week? Yeah. Because that's when I can, you know, and it's flexible and that's just kind of what you do in return for a support system that allows you to do the things that are important to you.
[00:34:37] Courtney Nugent: That's amazing. Mallory. I think more. More people that can mom out loud. Dad out loud. As you said, Shannon is better because I know when I wasn't a mom seeing moms, like I mentioned my first boss, Hey, I gotta go drive my kid to the pediatrician and I'm gonna come back like. Putting it out there like, this is what it is to be a working parent and I'm making it work.
[00:34:56] Courtney Nugent: And offering help too, right? Being able to say like, okay, let me pick like Meg on, on my team who, who Shannon helped hire too, is on Monday. I was like, my daughter, the stomach bug was up all night last night. I'm gonna be in and out today. She's like, what can I take off your plate? I'm like. Nothing, just so you know, I may not respond right.
[00:35:13] Courtney Nugent: But like so helpful to have someone on your team who I can just go to her and say, this is what's happening. I'm sleep deprived. I'm not my best today. Just know that and, and have that support feels so good. And it's really hard for a lot of people in different orgs where that is not the culture where you feel like you have to sneak in and then sneak out for a doctor's appointment or just not be your true self.
[00:35:34] Courtney Nugent: Right. Which can be really draining over time.
[00:35:37] Shannon Curran: Yeah, and I think also. We are in an era where all of our work is digital. Especially in, you know, this, in this podcast, we primarily talk to people that work at tech companies, right? So you can work at any time of day from anywhere. Almost all of us have global companies too.
[00:35:55] Shannon Curran: I think it would be different if like you were clocking in at nine and clocking out at five and you were taking half the work day to do something else like, but. We're always working. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's a way to say like, you know, the milestone, like I was at the pediatrician on, you know, my daughter was playing, she ripped so much of that paper this morning.
[00:36:13] Shannon Curran: Oh my God. The paper on the table. I was like, oh, sorry. I feel like they made us wait a long time, but I was like answering stuff and being like, I like, I'll get to it later. Like things like, and that wasn't the case 20 years ago where everyone like had a a PC. They didn't even have laptops. Even at my first job, I didn't have a laptop, right?
[00:36:29] Shannon Curran: Like I didn't have a laptop I could take home. Like I had a computer that I came in and I worked on the computer and I went home. Like that's if you wanted to work from home, you had to check out the laptop. There was one like you checked out.
[00:36:40] Courtney Nugent: Oh gosh.
[00:36:41] Shannon Curran: Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So like, it's just different, right?
[00:36:44] Shannon Curran: And it's not that we care less about work at all. Like I care probably more than people back. I would, I'm not going and clock it and clock it out. Like I actually care a lot about. Impact, right? Like, and so I want my like focus time at 8:00 PM right? Like to be able to be like, Hey guys, I have this like brand assessment.
[00:37:00] Shannon Curran: I have to figure out, I'm not gonna be able to get it done like during the day, but like you'll get a slack for me at 10, a delayed slack probably for 9:00 AM tomorrow. It is a little different in our, like in the way that work is structured now. It's not like you're taking away from work. If you have a, like the doctors are only open during doctor hours.
[00:37:16] Shannon Curran: Like, sorry guys. It's like, I don't, like if I could go to the doctor at 10:00 PM I would, but I can't.
[00:37:21] Courtney Nugent: I think it's also important too, like as. Leaders is like telling your team, Hey, I'm gonna be working after 7:00 PM Anything I send you, you can look at it in the mor like, this is, yes, this is how I'm working now.
[00:37:34] Courtney Nugent: Right? 'cause it's what works for me and my family's schedule and whatever I have going on, I do not expect a response. And I, I feel like that's, most managers I've worked for that have had kids, have said something along those lines, right? Like if I've said you something at. Yeah, it's, 'cause you know, I, from four, I had to go get my kid at four and then I was in dinner and bath time and I'm just getting to it.
[00:37:53] Courtney Nugent: So I'm so grateful to have that flexibility because I find myself doing that too. And I do some of my best work, like after my daughter goes down to bed and like I come down to my office, you know, it's like, 'cause you can truly focus and there's no, nobody slacking you. Right? It's like you can do that equal.
[00:38:08] Courtney Nugent: Yeah,
[00:38:09] Shannon Curran: I thought you just said no one's slapping you because you have a two year, you said slacking. That's what you said.
[00:38:14] Courtney Nugent: Sometimes.
[00:38:15] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:38:16] Courtney Nugent: It can feel the
[00:38:17] Shannon Curran: same. No,
[00:38:18] Mallory Lee: it can feel the
[00:38:18] Shannon Curran: same. No 2-year-old slapping you, no one's slacking you. Alright, so we have a. A segment we do on every episode where we call it our save of the week.
[00:38:27] Shannon Curran: So it is either a product, a process, a person that has gotten you through this week. So I don't know if you wanna think about it for a second, but Mallory, do you have one? Do you wanna start?
[00:38:38] Mallory Lee: Okay. So I've mentioned this before, but like in podcast world. We don't know exactly when this is gonna get released, so
[00:38:45] Shannon Curran: Right.
[00:38:46] Mallory Lee: For the record, it's whatever, March 13th today, Friday, March 13th. Mercury is in retrograde. Okay. And I don't believe in that stuff very much, however, my last two weeks have been. Just ins wild, insane. Anything that can go wrong, it has gone wrong. So this week my husband was traveling for work and he was out of town fine, no big deal.
[00:39:10] Mallory Lee: But then it's just me and the three boys and, you know, I'm working and momming and, and doing it all by myself for the most part this week. And I tried really hard to sneak a workout in. On the way to my workout class, I got a flat tire. And needless to say, that plan kind of went in the garbage. And so I had two people that saved me.
[00:39:33] Mallory Lee: One was my mother-in-law who went to pick up the kids from school because I was not gonna make it on time. And then the other was this very friendly gentleman, don't know his name, but he saw me changing my tire and came and helped me. And so I changed it like halfway myself to the spare. I didn't even get his name, but he was my savior this week.
[00:39:56] Shannon Curran: Thank you kind stranger.
[00:39:57] Courtney Nugent: Thank you. Kind.
[00:39:58] Mallory Lee: Wow. Thank you to the strangers.
[00:39:59] Courtney Nugent: Walk. Fires happen at the worst possible moments, like when you're trying to rush somewhere. I swear those things always happen then.
[00:40:05] Mallory Lee: Yeah. But we made it through and now we're at Friday and pretty soon this week will be fully behind us.
[00:40:12] Shannon Curran: Yes, it
[00:40:12] Mallory Lee: will. And Mercury will. Sebastian wasn't right on March 20th. He told you it
[00:40:16] Shannon Curran: wasn't. Oh geez,
[00:40:17] Mallory Lee: it wasn't Friday.
[00:40:17] Shannon Curran: Yeah. He said, no, it's not Friday. He said it's not Friday because I, I tell him it's, I only ever tell him it's Friday to get him to school for the last day of the week. 'cause he like really is struggling to get outta the house.
[00:40:29] Shannon Curran: And he is like, it's not Friday. And I said, it is Friday. And he goes, but it's not. So he just kept saying, and I was like, okay, I'm not gonna win this argument.
[00:40:40] Shannon Curran: You got it bud. Not Friday. Alright. Court. Do you have one?
[00:40:44] Courtney Nugent: My save of the week. One thing, maybe not this week in particular, but like this winter for my daughter's second birthday, we got her one of those little trampolines. This winter has been pretty like brutal in New England. We've gotten a ton of snow and so that has been a safe, just, she'll just jump and jump and jump and jump and jump and burn all this energy and she loves it and it's.
[00:41:05] Courtney Nugent: It's been a real savior this winter, so shout out to that trampoline. My daughter goes to daycare three days a week and then my in-laws watch her twice a week at our house. They come to our house and watch her, and my mother-in-law cooks us dinner one night a week. That is a save every week because yeah, they're both retired.
[00:41:22] Courtney Nugent: Um. You know, they spend the day with her. They love the time with her, but the fact that she cooks dinner once a week is like so nice to just like Tuesday nights. I know dinner's covered, so that's a continuous save. Wow. Go mom.
[00:41:36] Mallory Lee: Go
[00:41:36] Courtney Nugent: Mom and mom. I know.
[00:41:37] Shannon Curran: Thank you Grandma Nugent. We love that. We love that.
[00:41:41] Mallory Lee: All right, Shannon, how about you?
[00:41:43] Shannon Curran: So I did baby lead weaning with both my kids. So luckily they were eating table food from the beginning. But I just feel like one day you realize like, shoot, I need snacks for this like small child. We talk a lot about snacks on this podcast, but now I'm like, shoot, like I have so many snacks for my 2-year-old, but I actually don't have a lot of compliant nine month old snacks in the house.
[00:42:02] Shannon Curran: So I like we're big once upon a farm family. I don't know if people like once upon a farm, but they are our preferred puff. And then also the like smoothie melts. So Sebastian used to love them. Yeah. And they melt in their mouth so you don't have to like kind of worry if they're like walking around and eating them.
[00:42:17] Shannon Curran: So I went and got a bunch and now I have them like in my bag all the time. So like when she's like just clearly hungry, it's crazy how hungry they get so quick. Uh, my toddler now has seen them and it's like, I want those snacks. And I'm like, they're $4 a bag. You're a big boy. I was like, okay, great, great, great, great.
[00:42:39] Shannon Curran: So I will say they're making everyone extremely happy and me extremely broke. So that is good news for my children. But, but I do think they, now, if I pack them, they'll feed both kids, which I think makes like a big difference. One to two rocked me so much. Like it's just a lot to manage. I still have two in diapers too, so it's just like two of everything.
[00:42:56] Shannon Curran: Right. And. I kind of panicked to be like, now I have two of food too. Like I was like, this is too much because I, you know, she doesn't drink formula because she refuses it. So I haven't had to like pack her food ever. And so one pro of my plight of nursing this child, so yeah, but they, those little smoothie Mels and those puffs really are, are big hit for both children right now.
[00:43:17] Shannon Curran: So that knows if like, that's all that's in the bag, at least both of them will eat it. Which is good.
[00:43:22] Courtney Nugent: Is this the brand that the Costco is this the like Amari, the like organic.
[00:43:27] Shannon Curran: Oh,
[00:43:28] Courtney Nugent: what's the brand
[00:43:28] name?
[00:43:28] Shannon Curran: So it's not the same brand, but we love those two. Sebastian used to love them. He goes, I want the dots is what he used to call them.
[00:43:34] Shannon Curran: Oh, can I have the dots? They are dots. Yeah bud. You can have the dots. Yeah, I want some mango dots. Aw, you're like, you got it buddy. And now he just calls them. I want those snacks. Those snacks. I want baby snacks. Well, this has been so wonderful and I think that Mallory, I'm glad you got to meet Courtney, which, uh, one of my favorite humans on the planet and we so appreciate you coming on and taking the time and talking about your journey with work and with life.
[00:44:01] Shannon Curran: And is there anywhere that people can connect with you, like LinkedIn, something like that if they have like anything, any questions, any wanna know more about your work?
[00:44:09] Courtney Nugent: Yeah. LinkedIn's the best place to find me, Courtney Nugent. Happy to chat. Chat with anyone. I think I'm really glad you guys are. Putting these stories out there and have this platform because I remember being pregnant looking for content like this and just like inspiration from moms like, we can do this.
[00:44:27] Courtney Nugent: You're gonna get through these challenges. There's always gonna be challenges, but there's like plenty of women going through the same thing as you. So I'm really looking forward to hearing your other episodes and yeah, if anyone has any questions or wants to connect, you can find me on LinkedIn.
[00:44:39] Shannon Curran: Love
[00:44:40] Mallory Lee: it.
[00:44:40] Amazing.
[00:44:41] Mallory Lee: Thank you. Thank you you, Courtney.
[00:44:43] Shannon Curran: Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms.
[00:44:46] Mallory Lee: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. When Naomi makes the rules,
[00:44:58] Shannon Curran: I said to her, I'm like, we'll be done by 1115.
[00:45:01] Shannon Curran: And she goes, 11, 10. I was like, okay, that's good. You are the boss, nanny. Um, yeah, and I also probably should go pick up the amoxicillin so my child can, uh, feel better. But I will do that after this.
[00:45:12] Courtney Nugent: That'll help quick.
[00:45:13] Shannon Curran: Yeah, she literally has not slept unless she was held for the last like four days, pretty much.
[00:45:18] Shannon Curran: I was like, oh, it must be daylight savings time the first day. And then I was like,
[00:45:21] Courtney Nugent: yeah,
[00:45:22] Shannon Curran: she must be teething. And I was like, then I'm like, this is perpetuating. And she has like the worst runny nose. So I was like, maybe she has an ear infection. Yeah, she does. Yeah, she's got two and they are raging.