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The Factory Floor is hosted by the three co-founders of Conversion Factory, the marketing agency at the forefront of SaaS growth, marketing, and tech trends. Episodes are released on Twitter one day early, @coreyhainesco.
Every other week Corey, Zach, and Nick break down what’s working right now in SaaS marketing, share real-world lessons from the field, and give you the strategies you need to outpace the competition.
You can also find us on YouTube, X, and everywhere you listen to podcasts!
Don't fall behind. Subscribe. Like. Drop a comment. Or not. The ball is in your court.
Nick Loudon (00:00)
All right. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the factory floor. I am joined by my companions in business and friendship.
We have Corey, Eugene Hayes, Haines. Did your last name wrong? Dude, I've known you for like 12 years. Yeah, Eugene also is. It's gotta be a U in there. I don't know. Ulysses is sick,
Corey Haines (00:18)
Not my name.
You called me Corey Ulysses Haines earlier. I would have taken that. That one was kind of cool.
Zach Stevens (00:24)
You
actually that's
a common theme throughout some of conversion factories design assets is I will always use Corey's name but it's extended by like 12 yeah it's like Corey Allen Bartholomew, Edgar Haines Esquire the third
Nick Loudon (00:41)
Hahaha ⁓
Corey Haines (00:42)
⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Loudon (00:46)
We're
very professional at Conversion Factory, by the way. ⁓ So we got Corey, all those names, Haines. And then we also have Zach Stevens below me on my Zoom meeting call thing that is joining us. ⁓
The thing is, today we're talking about something that Zach and I apparently don't know anything about, which is perfect because we're going to let a good old Uncle Corey walk us through. we're going to talk about vibe marketing today. Now I've heard of vibe coding. And so I'm assuming it's something to do with vibe coding. Yeah, but not vibe marketing. So can you just can you take us on a journey, Corey? Is that possible?
Corey Haines (01:10)
Ha
You have.
Yeah, okay, all right.
Zach Stevens (01:32)
Well,
Nick heard about vibe, vibe coding, and then he made it so that that word doesn't show up in his Twitter feed because he hates AI.
Nick Loudon (01:41)
Right. So I,
Corey Haines (01:41)
Right. Immediately excluded
it.
Nick Loudon (01:44)
I need you to tell me if I need to do the same thing to vibe marketing, if it has AI involved. Okay, sweet. All right. Take us there, Corey.
Corey Haines (01:50)
Yeah, probably, probably.
Zach Stevens (01:50)
Probably.
Corey Haines (01:54)
So, well,
Zach, have you heard of Vibe Marketing?
Zach Stevens (01:59)
I hadn't actually until you brought it up, but I'm assuming it follows, you know, like vibe coding, vibe marketing. I'm assuming there's a, kind of similarity that's in there where you just, you're going for the vibes, not like the actual technical feasibility of whatever it is you're doing.
Corey Haines (02:01)
Okay.
huh, huh, huh. Okay, I think this will be a fun discussion. ⁓ And it's actually not that surprising that you haven't heard of it because everyone's Twitter feed is different. I feel like my Twitter algorithm is very in tune with breaking news and whatever the new zeitgeist is of what's happening in tech. So I feel like I was one of the first to hear about Vibe Marketing and sort of already knew that that was probably gonna happen.
⁓ and it's always funny when these terms come up because you never really know like where it came from or who started using it first or who popularized it or why we all accepted that it became a thing. But yeah, to back up for a second, vibe coding is basically what people say when they're not really a programmer, but they're using AI so much that they're able to
build apps and they're able to program and develop and write code purely based off of prompting. So like you're not really, there's no strategy or art to it. It's just so like in cursor or in Windsurf for whatever, you know, Replit V zero, Bolt lovable. Like there's all these big app builder platforms now or IDEs that have agentic capabilities within them where you're literally like,
⁓ You know build me this app here the requirements go and then it starts going whatever doesn't work You're like this doesn't work make it work fix it. There's like there's no Art to it It's it's so like brutish, you know, you're just in there like there's a meme of this like giga Chad dude and he's I mean he's insanely buff and he's like working at a stand-up desk and he's looking at his computer and it's like, you know
Nick Loudon (03:54)
Rhyme or reason?
Corey Haines (04:11)
the text is like what he's writing into chat GPT and he's like, perf You know, it's like this whole like people are so savage with their prompting. So he had vibe coding. Now let me just say that I was a vibe coder before vibe coding was a thing. Honestly, that's actually not a good thing. That's pretty embarrassing. But like literally when I learned the code two years ago, almost in August of
Zach Stevens (04:22)
You
Nick Loudon (04:32)
⁓ yeah, first mover,
you
Corey Haines (04:41)
2023, I was at a coding bootcamp at Ryan Culp's house and I had just started coding. I just downloaded a, my first coding IDE, just started using a terminal, didn't know anything about how anything worked. And then someone said, Hey, there is ⁓ a fork of VS code. One of the biggest coding IDEs there is that has chat GPT like in the sidebar in the IDE. So I can like actually see your code.
you don't have to copy and paste between VS code and chat GPT. And I was like, well, that sounds great because that's what I was doing. And I hate copy and pasting things back and forth. So I downloaded this thing called cursor and now like cursor is what everyone uses to vibe code. So I was doing that way, way before it was cool where it was like still chat GPT or a GPT 3.5 turbo.
And you know, it was writing the worst code in the world, but I was just clicking accept and then feeding it the error message and then having to fix it. And then, you know, you just keep going like that. So that's where they say like you're vibing because you're not really paying attention to the architecture of the app. You're just prompting until it works. so does that make sense on what vibe coding is as like a starting point?
Nick Loudon (06:04)
had ahead and suck.
Zach Stevens (06:05)
Well, it just seems, okay. So the context is that you're really, they say vibe coding quite literally where it's like, I'm just trying to get the vibe. Like, and how to get this. I use that term frequently during design projects. It's like, this is like, you know, it's off brand. The vibe isn't quite right with this particular thing. And it's not necessarily a.
technical judgment, it's a emotional subjective one, which is what it sounds like. It's subjectively pointing out whether something does or does not work in the context of coding.
Corey Haines (06:36)
Yeah, right.
Yeah, it's sort of like maybe the difference between like drawing a sketch of a house and making an architectural blueprint, right? Like whereas programming before was like you're making an architectural blueprint of these are the exact measurements. This is what's technically sound. This is what is up to code and so on and so forth. You're just sketching and those sketches become reality though. ⁓ And you know, so
Nick Loudon (06:52)
Hmm.
you
Corey Haines (07:11)
So vibe designing. Okay. So the reason why they say like vibe coding is because the AI is so embedded into the workflow and it's so quick to actually do things that you can just kind of take this more spontaneous, loose, chaotic work style approach. You don't have to be so scientific and precise and technically sound with everything. You're just vibing.
You're just prompting and seeing where it goes. And it's a very like windy journey to an end product.
Zach Stevens (07:47)
Okay, so now I really want to hear what does this look like for marketing.
Nick Loudon (07:50)
Okay, hold on. the just so I understand the putting the word vibe in front of vibe coding is more like I'm chilling. I'm vibing. This is easy. I can just do and it does it. It's less like it's like something about the coding that makes it vibe coding. It's just like, no, I'm just chilling while I'm doing it basically. Okay.
Corey Haines (08:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's just an easy
Zach Stevens (08:14)
Hmm.
Corey Haines (08:15)
breezy. Carefree way of coding.
Zach Stevens (08:17)
Beautiful cover girl.
Nick Loudon (08:21)
It's crazy how not understanding I am of the term vibe coding and how popular the term is. Okay. Okay. So what is
Corey Haines (08:27)
Well, again, keep in mind,
it's popular within the echo chamber of 100,000 people in tech Twitter.
Nick Loudon (08:32)
Zeitgeist.
By the way, it should be noted that we should all use the word zeitgeist as much as possible in as many situations as we possibly can, because it's such a good word. ⁓ Okay, tell us about Vibe Marketing.
Corey Haines (08:44)
I do love that word.
Okay. So with vibe coding, right? We take an established workflow and process, and then we put so much AI into it that we don't have to care as much about how long that process takes or all the technical bits or the exact way that we get to the end product that we want. Right? So now the exact same thing is happening with a marketing where we take a process like writing a blog post, for example,
Nick Loudon (09:16)
There it is.
Corey Haines (09:19)
And maybe before writing a blog post would involve, you know, a couple of hours of doing some research on Google, reading a book, trying to find some primary sources, maybe running a poll on Twitter, emailing a couple of experts and friends, so on and so forth. And then writing an outline and then like filling out that outline into a draft, sending it off to an editor, sharing with the team for feedback, adding some designs, uploading it to a CMS.
Nick Loudon (09:43)
you
Corey Haines (09:49)
publishing, then promoting on Twitter or so on and so forth. Now with AI, every one of those pieces of the process can be expedited and automated by like a hundred times. So instead of going and doing some research on Google, you just have a AI agent go and scrape. You you do like the deep seek or the chat to PT deep research and you say, give me a summary of all the primary resources on this topic.
And then it's going to give you all the facts. And then you say, Chat GPT Hey, build me an outline. Cool. Make a couple of tweaks to that outline. Now you say, Hey, now write it. And then you can have Chat GPT go and create some illustrations. You can do some sketches and turn them into some stock images or into a diagram or into a prototype or a mockup. And then when you publish it, you can have all these automations that then go and create individual unique posts for Twitter, LinkedIn, so on and so forth.
You can even turn, you know, for example, what we're doing right now, we need to do some more vibe marketing with our process. We could take the transcript of this podcast and then have AI go through a couple of different processes within an agent to turn it into a blog post and then turn that blog post into some social media posts and turn those social media posts into something else, someone and so forth. Right? So vibe marketing is basically how do we take AI and use it to
expedite and automate all the things that we do to make it essentially like a spontaneous process instead of a super scientific drawn out lengthy process.
Zach Stevens (11:27)
systematic.
Nick Loudon (11:32)
Okay, I have a question then. As a marketer and someone who is up with the zeitgeist of what's happening and knows, you know, reads a lot of blog posts and a lot of Twitter posts and a lot of these things. Do you feel like you can see like
Zach Stevens (11:32)
Hmm.
Nick Loudon (11:51)
this isn't that person, this is AI. Like I can see that this blog post or this tweet is like distilled from this. Like you can kind of, you know, like it's just like, you know, any like article now, I feel like sometimes I can read them like you didn't write this. I could tell. Do you have that with all this marketing material? Do you feel like you have that?
Corey Haines (12:10)
Hold on, buffering,
buffering.
I I got the gist what you said. ⁓ Can I tell? Yes, you can absolutely tell. Here's the scary part though, is that it's getting harder and harder for me to tell. And recently I've been seeing people's tweets that I for sure thought weren't created by AI. And then I see one thing that kind of tips me off that it actually was created by AI. And I'm like, wow, like that basically almost got me.
Nick Loudon (12:13)
Okay, go ahead.
you
Hmm.
Corey Haines (12:42)
And like, it's going to be impossible to tell really, really soon. ⁓ and here's the thing. I don't think it's going to matter at all. I don't think it's going to matter. No one's going to be able to tell. No one's going to care. There's going to be a lot more noise and there's increasingly more noise every single month, especially on social media because creating content has gotten so, so easy. There's even noise. Like now every tweet that I write or that I publish, I probably get
Zach Stevens (12:58)
Mm.
Corey Haines (13:10)
two to five automated AI comment replies. Sometimes I also can't recently, I can't tell if those are AI or not, but then because they come on every single thing that I do, I realized that they are, but actually what they're saying doesn't really read like it was written by AI. ⁓ but again, this is just kind of the inevitability of AI is with marketing. It started with simple things like help me rewrite this headline.
Zach Stevens (13:14)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Corey Haines (13:38)
And now it's like, I can just feed it a transcript of this podcast. And then in five minutes, I'm going to have a published podcasts, podcast clips, blog posts, social media tweets, so on and so forth, all published and scheduled in the right places automatically. And I'm going to trust that the output is good because it's gotten to that point where it's basically indistinguishable from what a person can do. ⁓ and so.
Vibe marketers are sort of like the new growth hackers. If you think about it, growth hackers were cool like 10 years ago and growth hacking was all about building it or taking in the processes and tools developers and then using it for a marketing use case. And now the same thing is happening with AI where people are building their own scrapers, building their own research assistants, building their own ⁓ agents, building their own X, Y, and Z.
Nick Loudon (14:12)
Hmm
Zach Stevens (14:13)
Mm-hmm.
Corey Haines (14:36)
that really, really speed up the process and allow you to do things that you couldn't do before or as quickly before nearly as much.
Zach Stevens (14:45)
Hmm. Do you feel that the, I mean, I feel like this is happening with this happens with every democratization of a particular skill set that the, you already mentioned the amount of noise keeps going up, but do you think that for like in the hands of a really good marketer, this sounds super effective, right? Like, okay.
Nick Loudon (14:45)
Mm.
Zach Stevens (15:09)
Do think that in the hands of an inexperienced marketer, it ends up becoming a noisy drum set in the garage with someone who doesn't know what they're doing?
Corey Haines (15:22)
uhuh.
yes, but here's the thing is that I think that because there's so much noise and there's only so many seconds in a day and only so much real estate in a social media feed that all the bad noise ends up getting drowned out. Actually, it, we're just replacing manually written tweets that are filling our, our timeline with AI driven tweets that are filling our timeline.
but that are basically equal or, or better quality. ⁓ because everyone else that's just using it for really bad, if you're writing bad tweets, it's still going to get bad engagement, right? If you're writing a bad blog post, it's still not going to rank in Google. If you're publishing a bad podcast, it's still not going to get listened to. Right? So if the quality isn't there, it's sort of like as if it never happened. But for everyone else, now we're making more better things.
Zach Stevens (15:51)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Corey Haines (16:20)
faster. ⁓ and, and so you're able to do more with less. That's really the whole theme of AI, right? It's like you're able to do more with less produce more with less people, less resources, less time.
Nick Loudon (16:35)
Okay, I was gonna ask you about that because that that was kind of my view is that you can do like there's a way more output the quantity is like Huge you can do as much as you need or want at any given time
you know, in all these different skill sets or industries. But what hasn't fully caught up is the quality. like quantity is through the roof, but quality is like slowly increasing like before you could easily pick out like obviously AI terrible. then like now it's kind of like, is that AI? I don't know. So the quality is like catching up.
and the quantity is always going to be insane. Like you can do a ton of stuff, but the quality is just slowly climbing to the point where it's like, dude, what if the quality is like way better than we would put together and you can do 10 times more every day? That's going to kind of like ruin all of our lives. Like I don't want to, I don't want to go on Twitter. Like I won't want to look, you know?
Corey Haines (17:26)
Yeah, that's what's happening.
Zach Stevens (17:30)
think so, actually.
Corey Haines (17:35)
there's definitely going to be some things where it's like, if you can prove, or if you can really go the extra mile to show that like, Hey, what I'm doing is not by AI or at least it's not obvious then yeah, then people kind of like give it an extra nod. They're like, okay, this seems to be something that I don't feel like it's going to, going to try to trick me. But I think there's a lot of things that people don't care about. For example, ads, um, like just recently, um, as of like a month ago,
Nick Loudon (17:45)
⁓ interesting. Human validation. Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Corey Haines (18:04)
since a chat GPT released GPT four ⁓ image creation. I mean, it's like a mile better, like 10 times better than the last model at image creation. I'm looking at some tweets in front of me. I'm not going to show it cause everyone listening is not going to able to see it anyways. I'll just describe it. But, people have been showing a lot of these ad mockups where you can just give chat GPT a picture of your product. Let's just say it's a lipstick for example. And,
you can be like, Hey, this is my product. What it looks like. Here's a couple of angles of it. Now do some mockups of this within models hands on the beach, with this kind of backdrop at sunset, for example, and it'll create a really, really hyper realistic, amazing looking ad within a couple of seconds. Now you don't have to go spend tens of thousands of dollars to hire a model, take a boat out to an Island, bring all your professional photography equipment.
rent it out for the whole day, buy people's meals, so on and so forth. Even for software. mean, it's like, maybe what would have taken a designer, you know, a few hours for a product UI abstraction or illustration. Like I know it's Zach, you can tell me more what you think about this, but like, even though it doesn't feel like it's there yet, it's going to be soon. And there's just so many use cases where it's like, well, maybe what would have taken literally a week or a thousand dollars or
$10,000 to do now is just one prompt away. That's pretty amazing. And again, it allows you to work so much faster. That's why this whole vibe marketing thing is kind of catching on because people are like, dang, if I'm a D2C brand or I'm a solo founder of a software product, or I'm a consultant, like now I'm a one, one man marketing machine. I don't need a whole team to do all these things. I don't need to spend a
$100,000 a year just on influencer marketing, I can just make an AI influencer and then feed it my products and so on and so forth.
Zach Stevens (20:08)
Yeah
Yeah, think specifically around the concept of images for D2C brands. think it's crushing it. Like it, it's a super powerful tool that's ready to go. Assuming that you're able to get at least a couple, you know, a plain white background images of your product where it can then assess the, like the dimensions and all that. Cause like, I even took something from athletic greens website when GPT-4.0 first got released and they have this
Uh, it's a set of all the different things that like the bag, the canister that it comes in, um, a spoon and then like even some like sprinkled AG one dust on the, like the white countertop that was on it ever. And I said, take this image, but put it into a moody lit kitchen countertop and do all this stuff. And I was really impressed by the results for that. There were some things that it still hit the uncanny valley, like, okay, the spoon is like sticking out of the closed, um,
canister, isn't going to happen, but easily fixable with Photoshop. ⁓ And the, does, it carries the raw material a very far way before you have to come in and say, okay, I need to make some adjustments to actually make this real. With software stuff, I feel like it still isn't doing it right. And I've noticed this with anything 2D actually.
Like I feel like just 2D vector graphics. has a really hard time creating things that are coherent. Like I've even seen the, you put this person in our Slack channel. They were doing like brand style guides, like just a shit ton of them. And I was looking at them and I think that, I think I put together a video for it, but I didn't get to finish it where all of them were garbage. I was like.
This, was like, you picked enter as the primary typeface for everything. And it didn't even get that right. There's no, it was very homogenized and it, I don't know why, but like it just, has a hard time doing anything. Digital, like if there's a digital interface that it has to then abstract and turn into something else, it's, it sucks at doing it. I'm same thing with like creating brand style guides. It was like.
Corey Haines (22:10)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Zach Stevens (22:34)
Yeah, but like those icons, they're not even cohesive. don't even know what they are. Like you just have this circle with a random line in it. It's not a usable icon. ⁓ so I guess it's like, it's there. I'm thankfully, I image generation for software stuff is still a, has a moat around it as far as creating things that are actually good for now, for the time being.
Corey Haines (22:43)
Yeah, yeah.
for the time being, well, because
Nick Loudon (22:57)
for now.
Corey Haines (22:58)
let
me tell you why. Because ⁓ every time there's a new model that comes out, it's because the team developing it, whether it's OpenAI, Anthropic, so on and so forth, they are specifically training that model to be better at something. And so for example, when they came out ⁓ with GPT-4.0, that was a new model just to improve the image generation.
So for months, they've been fine tuning and tweaking for this output. Now, when they put their mind to 2D abstract concepts and diagrams and ⁓ things like style guides or UI illustrations, things like that, they're gonna spend a couple months, they're probably even doing it now, and then they're gonna come out with a new model, it's gonna be like, hey, this model's great at this now. And we're all gonna be like, how'd they do that?
Nick Loudon (23:54)
you
Corey Haines (23:54)
It's the
same process every single time. They're training on something, some output, some really specific thing that they're trying to get the model to be better at. And it takes a lot of iterations, like literally billions of iterations. And it takes time to get there. And it takes some essentially prompting on their end to try to make the model better at those things. And that's why we're also starting to see a divergence in the models and what they're good at, where you see like, you know, we have a
Zach Stevens (24:22)
Deep research
versus 4.0,
Corey Haines (24:25)
Right, right. So,
so now we can sort of like toggle on and off these features of a model where it can take some extra time to go do some research or it can take some extra time to go and get every little pixel right. Or it can take some extra time. Or maybe that model is just built for speed. You know, we have like, I think it's like four, ⁓ many, or then there's like, ⁓ three, something rather. ⁓ they're all going to have these little flavors and tweaks.
And there's going to be a model specifically that's really good at whatever we think that it sucks at today. You know, a year from now, a couple of months from now, I don't know what it is, but.
Zach Stevens (25:00)
Yeah, I'm for that.
I'm for it. I'm a hundred percent for the empower, ⁓ giving people the opportunity to do things that they didn't have the capability to do before, particularly people who are already doing the thing manually. And I guess that's like the, where, where this was like.
Corey Haines (25:16)
Mm-hmm.
Zach Stevens (25:21)
If you know how to do all this stuff manually, then my gosh, like your workflows and your ability to dictate what is and is not acceptable for these things is gonna make your prompting so much more efficient. And then you'll be able to generate at mass scale. Because I do think, like if we were, like I said, if we were a D2C marketing agency and we needed to do stuff like, like you said, a lipstick brand or a...
you know, like a soda or something like that. That stuff, man, I would be over the moon, excited with all of the things that we would be able to create and how quickly we'd be able to create them. And then how much more creative thought would be the ⁓ value that's created rather than the time that gets put into seeing the idea manifest.
Corey Haines (26:14)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Nick Loudon (26:15)
Can I ask a question go backwards a little bit and ask a question? Okay, all right. This has been the factory floor. No, I'm just kidding Okay, we started talking earlier about like human validation so like the ⁓ You know like at some point but tons of stuff is gonna be made with AI and then we're gonna have like a Special premium feel to things that are made by humans ⁓
Zach Stevens (26:21)
No.
Corey Haines (26:24)
You
Nick Loudon (26:45)
It kind of reminded me of like, you know, coffee in the US used to just be like a, like you go and get your coffee and you leave, or you like go through a drive-through at McDonald's to get your coffee. And then Starbucks like kind of was like, no, we're to have a cafe and you like can come sit down. And it's not like this like industrial, like get your thing and go. They wanted to make it like an experience. And people had a lot of this type of stuff after COVID. was like,
after COVID, like service and experience economy is going to boom again because people miss like just normal human being things and like this, ⁓ experience versus like the, you know, get it and go type mentality. Will we have something like this for AI produced products and services and human produced products and services and will
the human products and services have to be incredibly cheap to compete with the AI ones.
Zach Stevens (27:49)
I that they're going to be reversed. Actually. think that what you're going to find is that the human services and that human stamp of authenticity is going to command a price premium and it will be more experiential. It'll be kind of like, like mass produced clothing where like, know, you have a t-shirt from Hanes or fruit of the loom or whatever. ⁓ or even just like, you know, button up shirts. Like if you go to like a Macy's or JC Penny and get something off the shelf, it's like, yeah, it gets the job done. It's mass produced. ⁓
Nick Loudon (28:08)
you
Zach Stevens (28:19)
but that's not really what I'm after. What you will get is the people who are buying for status and those are the kind of people that do things like these shoes that I'm wearing right now, handcrafted by Giuliani Armani in Italy.
Nick Loudon (28:31)
you ⁓
Zach Stevens (28:37)
you know, like with his hands, you know, that's the kind of status and buying power that I have. And I feel like we've seen this over and over again. It's the same. We see it in hospitality where like, you know, you have fast food like McDonald's that is very in it. Also very inexpensive, but then you have things like, you know, like you, you go to like a cowboy star or a Ruth's Chris. And it's like, I don't know. That was
Corey Haines (28:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Loudon (28:43)
Hmm.
Delicious.
Zach Stevens (29:04)
Somebody made that today or like even more artisanal stuff. Like this restaurant that we're going to is on the farm where they raised the pig that we're about to have the pork belly of. So I think that what you'll see is this might be an interesting opportunity for blockchain to make a resurgence where it's blockchain verified that this is made by a human as opposed to AI. Like, uh, and that will command price premium, at least in my opinion.
Nick Loudon (29:24)
you
Corey Haines (29:26)
Hehehe.
Nick Loudon (29:32)
2026 double down
Zach Stevens (29:34)
You had the, well, the thing, the thing, the thing that's going to happen, the thing that has to happen though
Nick Loudon (29:34)
on blockchain.
Zach Stevens (29:38)
is that you have to be really, really good. Like it's going to the, there, there will not be a, like, there's not going to be a, no, it's just, it's not going to happen. You have to be really fricking good. We kind of see this with, I feel like the same thing happened with music too, where actually, and the thing that happens is that people actually crave a little bit of imperfection in the elements that they.
Nick Loudon (29:45)
mediocre group.
Corey Haines (30:00)
Yeah, the rough edges.
Zach Stevens (30:03)
Yeah, rough edges.
And we see this with things like, it's like the thing that makes a, like a vinyl, an old vinyl so powerful to listen to is because it's actually not overproduced. ⁓ that there is that human imperfection that comes through. And you even see this with things like a live performance. You know, this is why live performances are so valuable. It's because there's chaos and there it's not programmed. That's why podcasts are so popular. It's because it's unscripted. and it, I think that we still long for.
Nick Loudon (30:06)
you
Zach Stevens (30:35)
that it's just gonna be it's not gonna be possible to have a middle ground anymore it's gonna be high-end high touch high involvement or low touch good but not the same like just a difference in experience
Nick Loudon (30:35)
you
you
Corey Haines (30:52)
Yeah. ⁓ two thoughts on that as a followup is one, I think that anytime you see the cost of doing something go down where it becomes a lot more accessible, then there becomes like a new bar where you have to go, you have to make it even more high quality and obviously kind of handmade human made in order for people to see that difference and appreciate that difference. So
Yeah, like now, you know, maybe the cost of like getting an influencer has gone down or maybe before you can only get an influencer who is a Hollywood movie star and you had to give them a million dollars and 10 % royalty and all sales. Now you can seed your product to a hundred Instagram influencers, give them no equity and you can do it for, you know, ⁓ a hundred thousand dollars. And now with AI, maybe you can make your own AI influencer and, or you can just create ads.
of ⁓ people that look like influencers with your products that you can use to advertise for basically free. But now once you've like used that up, once you've exploited that as a tactic and now you want to go the extra mile and you want to go beyond what that can offer you. Now you need to do things that AI can't do or that's obviously not AI. So like, every, every pose that you think that an AI model can do really well.
Now you're going to go the extra mile to find a model who doesn't look like anyone who's AI. Maybe the model looks a little bit imperfect. Maybe the lighting isn't perfect. Maybe they're doing something or they're making expression or the holding it a certain way where it just people can see right away that that's not AI, but it's also more eye catching than what would have been AI. Cause that's the key, right? It has to just, it can't just be different. It has to stand out and be more eye catching. ⁓
Nick Loudon (32:47)
Hmm.
Corey Haines (32:50)
And I'm using example of like an AI model because it's a really easy one to visualize. But again, this goes for blog posts. This goes for tweets. This goes for, ⁓ landing pages. This goes for, you know, software UI abstractions, so on and forth. It applies really to anything.
Nick Loudon (33:08)
I wonder if there's a world where it's like, cause in my brain there's, you could be like, okay, the law says everything needs a watermark. If it's got AI, you you got to say that it's AI or whatever. I don't want to do that. It's a little weird. my, in my head, I think something there's like a reverse where
Corey Haines (33:21)
That's already a thing on Instagram.
Nick Loudon (33:29)
anything could be AI, but if like the AI has this stuff, which you can't have in it, like it doesn't have this, you know, like there's a badge or something that like if you there's not this isn't in the AI. And so if I have it in my video, you know, that this is a real human being or something like that. But I just I don't know, I feel like there's gonna be a huge market.
Corey Haines (33:40)
⁓ yeah,
Like if people become blind to the little watermark
that's like AI was involved in making this ad or whatever it is.
Nick Loudon (33:53)
Right. But instead it's like, there's
a little badge you can put on your thing. That's like, it's not in the models. It can't be in the models. It's like legally not allowed. So if you have that, that's like a verification, like, cause that's the problem. Like the government has to like put out statements or like the president has to say something and that models are so good. You can like make whatever you want. How do we know it's actually him saying anyway, we're way down away from vibe marketing.
Corey Haines (34:16)
Mm-hmm.
No, it's
Zach Stevens (34:20)
Yeah, like...
Corey Haines (34:20)
what I want to get to two other things based off of that really quickly. Sorry. There's a fly buzzing around me because my door is open for my dog. But, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ the, the other part of this thing is that I think is really interesting based on Zach's point about, ⁓ commanding a price premium is that I think on the product side of things, what I think that we're going to see happen, especially with a lot more software and services.
Nick Loudon (34:28)
It's AI, it's not real.
Zach Stevens (34:31)
You
Corey Haines (34:50)
is a lot more personalization because if we can't apply the AI to the marketing, we can probably apply the AI to the product more. And I was thinking recently about our client, Baudible. I'll call them out, give them a little shout out because what's really interesting about them is that they, they're sort of positioned as like, we're the internal knowledge base for X, Y, and Z industries. So your employees can go and ask any question.
Nick Loudon (34:59)
Hmm.
Corey Haines (35:18)
and then getting the answer within seconds instead of having to file a report with HR and maybe have to spend weeks on something that's not even a good answer. And, ⁓ and what's really interesting is that they have each one of their clients upload a unique corpus of data, unique training set. And then like for them, the product is tailored and personalized for that client and all those answers. And I think we'll start to see that a lot more where it's like, instead of just,
logging into your, I don't know, your HubSpot dashboard and you get your CRM with all the different tabs and buttons and things. It's like, no, this is the conversion factory HubSpot dashboard with all of our, only the buttons that we need and a bunch of new buttons and new interfaces that are personalized just for us. And now it feels like a much more customized experience for us because at the end of the day,
Zach Stevens (36:06)
Hmm.
Corey Haines (36:16)
people are going to pay for things. They're going to pay extra for things that they know that AI can't do. Unfortunately for software, there's nothing that AI can't do. There's no like, you know, hand woven or hand carved, ⁓ equivalent in, in software. You know, you can say this, this shirt, you know, the, stitching was specifically hand woven by, you know, craftsman and no sewing machine in the world can do that. It's like, cool, I'll pay a premium for that. There's nothing.
Zach Stevens (36:26)
You ⁓
Nick Loudon (36:31)
code.
Corey Haines (36:46)
that a programmer would write in code that gets compiled down to binary and a computer chip that an AI can't do. But what can an AI do that we can't do? It can customize and personalize the experience of that software infinitely, right? ⁓ So I think that we'll start to see that a lot, lot more where it's not just a off the shelf experience for every software that you buy, that it's a personalized experience. There's a lot more customization involved. ⁓
Nick Loudon (37:01)
you
Corey Haines (37:16)
The second thing here really back to the, to the vibe marketing theme is that beyond just creating marketing assets, cheaper, faster, better. think the real magic is actually in the workflows. ⁓ and this more like agent experience where, example, I can set up an automation to scrape my competitors, Facebook ads, feed that into.
GPT 4o or whatever image models the best at that time, have it create personalized equivalence of those ad formats for my brand, go and then write the copy based on their creative upload into these Google drive folders, grab those and upload those into Facebook ads and then like send to me for review or someone like there's so many different workflows that you can't even imagine that are like
Nick Loudon (37:57)
you
Crazy. ⁓
Corey Haines (38:11)
You know, we've talked about this. We've been looking into like gum loop and Lindy and it's like, ⁓ what if after the sales call, it automatically grabs a transcript, generates a follow up email for us, sends them a recap of the conversation, ⁓ connects with them on LinkedIn, sends them this personalized message, follow ups in a week. If there's no customer record detected in Stripe, like there's so many cool automations where the workflow could be like 20 steps long and
Nick Loudon (38:23)
you
Corey Haines (38:41)
It's as if someone were doing that on the back end.
Zach Stevens (38:45)
You know, it seems to me that what the key thing with like the vibe coding and the vibe anything is it's it's more about a Just getting rid of minutiae that's what
Corey Haines (38:59)
Yes.
Zach Stevens (39:00)
That's what this is. It's you cut out those interstitial steps and get rid of the minutiae that is needed to get to your milestones before it can actually be something that is worth showing to the world. Like, cause what you just mentioned there and something that I've been looking at with Lindy, I'm like, you know, checking out Lindy AI's notion integrations with Stripe and also there's stuff to see like what.
What are those small little steps that you have to take to get to a specific ⁓ way marker before you have to do something else? And the more of those that you can cut out, the better. Like any part of a new ship before it's like milestone, great, I get to check in. You're essentially becoming like when we, when I was doing advanced graphic design before we started Conversion Factory.
Corey Haines (39:40)
Mm-hmm.
Zach Stevens (39:51)
You'd have those milestone check-ins with, with clients like, know, Hey, we're going to check in on progress here. Our expectation is to have this and we want to review these, these elements. Now you don't need to have as much or your milestone check-ins become far more frequent where you're able to get to those stopping points. feel this is actually something really good and I can see fantastic progress, uh, with, with this stage. And we have other stages to go, but I'm cutting.
out all of that other energy that is needed in between those core steps.
Nick Loudon (40:21)
you
Yeah, there's like, I, okay, as for all the anti AI propaganda that I spew, I use it. It's a reality. Like I do use it. But I totally agree. think Corey, what you said about like,
the change in the workflow, not necessarily like the work that's being done, like it has to be done this way, but it's like, we're cutting out some of the BS and we're changing our workflow so that it's just faster and more efficient. Like today I haven't had an email from one of our past clients just asking like, Hey, like I'm like still figuring out this SEO thing. Like, can you kind of give me some tips, like pointers, things like that on their current site? ⁓ And I was like,
I could spend a lot of time thinking about this or I can think about it somewhat and I can also have AI think about it and feed it the URL and send like copy the email that they sent me and be like, hey, this is what the client said, ⁓ past client and this is what their URL is. Like, what do you think? Like, tell me what you would do. And I'm validating what they're saying. And then I'm like, okay, cool. Instead of this being like an hour and a half.
of me spending time on a past client, have like, okay, I got everything I need and a good frame of reference in like 10, 15 minutes, which is mostly just the time in my head thinking. It only took the AI like 30 seconds and then I can send them a loom and give them a breakdown. ⁓ So I totally agree. think it's the workflow and it's cutting out the BS that is the true value that we see right now. The question is, how long is it gonna be before...
It's more than that. And it's like, it does all the work. It does basically everything.
Zach Stevens (42:09)
I
think that that as well as taste, like at what point does it actually come up with ideas on its own in a really provocative way. those might be, well I was gonna say those might be a podcast in and of themselves.
Nick Loudon (42:17)
Have taste.
Yeah, I want my AI to be provocative.
Corey Haines (42:31)
Yeah,
in the short term though, sorry, go ahead.
Nick Loudon (42:31)
We should have a whole, go ahead,
no you. Okay, I was just gonna say we should have a whole episode of us trying, like we all independently go try to get AI to do or say something ridiculous and we bring our results to the end. Okay, so what I said doesn't matter. Okay, Corey, you go.
Corey Haines (42:50)
Okay, the next one, I'm off topic. was gonna say, speaking of minutiae, one of the things that I've noticed myself doing way, way more is just speaking and dictating versus typing. Even the most simple things. ⁓
Zach Stevens (43:02)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Loudon (43:03)
Hmm.
Zach Stevens (43:06)
Whisper Flow
or GPT.
Corey Haines (43:09)
⁓ well both because like chat GPT on your desktop app has a really good, ⁓ like voice to text feature, ⁓ where it basically uses their own, ⁓ speech recognition and speech transcription, ⁓ API super flow and whisper flow both use that same service essentially. But yeah, I've been doing that even with this book that I'm working on, you know, I'll, I'll see the feedback that people are writing about certain sentences or sections.
Nick Loudon (43:16)
That's it.
Corey Haines (43:38)
And then I will essentially dictate what they say line by line. And then I'll feed that back into cursor because it's has my whole chapter in there and then start editing that way. Like I'm not actually in there typing words or making changes on my keyboard. I am purely just dictating. And I've been doing that for, you know, the copy that we're working on for clients. I've been doing that for emails that I write. I've been doing that for, for tweets. I've been doing that for.
Nick Loudon (43:48)
you
Corey Haines (44:07)
⁓ even just like going through, ⁓ like I did like an onboarding audit for a client recently. So I just signed up and I spoke out loud what I was seeing on loom and then I fed the transcript from loom into ChatGPT And I was like, okay, now tell me all the, what I said, like structure that into an onboarding audit, essentially try and answer these questions and format it this way in an outline. And it worked really well.
Zach Stevens (44:32)
Dude, that's freaking genius.
Nick Loudon (44:32)
awesome.
Zach Stevens (44:33)
Why, why haven't you told us that you did that? Cause that's a great workflow.
Nick Loudon (44:33)
He's a Dude, that's genius. He's vibe marketing.
Corey Haines (44:37)
Ha ha!
Yeah, I've just been vibing, dude, sorry.
Zach Stevens (44:43)
Well, I've been, cause I've been using whisper
flow as well. just speaking is so much more effective, like, cause I can, it's thinking out loud and that's exactly the way that, yeah, cause me having to type things, it's, it's very curated and it's cold. ⁓ but you know, I can do all that after I just, brain dump everything that I'm seeing on there. And I hadn't thought of having GPT then do that culling and refining for me.
Corey Haines (44:53)
way faster.
Nick Loudon (45:12)
I...
Corey Haines (45:12)
Mm-hmm.
Zach Stevens (45:13)
well, yeah,
Corey Haines (45:13)
Mm-hmm.
Nick Loudon (45:14)
Corey.
Zach Stevens (45:14)
but it's great. I think the ideal scenario, this is, you know, future Zach talking is we have the screens on contact lenses and then we're able to just walk and we can have, we're able to dictate just using our voice and it's like, yeah, move that there. So that way I can be walking, ⁓ out in my neighborhood and giving feedback to clients verbally and looking at it. Yeah. That's the dream, Nick. Don't have to be at my desk.
Nick Loudon (45:37)
No, need to
Corey Haines (45:41)
Black Mirror, baby.
That's a Black Mirror episode right there. It's a prophecy.
Nick Loudon (45:43)
know you need some work life balance my friend. Heck no. Corey I was gonna ask are you meaner to the AI when you type or when you speak?
Corey Haines (45:57)
No, I'm super nice in both instances. I'm, yeah, I do too.
Zach Stevens (45:58)
I'm super nice. I say please. All
Nick Loudon (45:59)
Sure you are, sure.
He says, please,
Zach Stevens (46:04)
the time.
Nick Loudon (46:04)
please and thank you.
Corey Haines (46:07)
Very rarely, only if it's like majorly effing up and it's not understanding what I'm saying. Well, I like all caps, you know, rage. ⁓ Like, no, this, not that idiot.
Nick Loudon (46:14)
Like, stop.
Zach Stevens (46:17)
rage prompt.
Nick Loudon (46:19)
They're just like, to your face emoji, like, sorry, Corey. It's crazy.
Corey Haines (46:22)
Yeah.
Zach Stevens (46:22)
Or well, I think
I mean a good example of this is like when we were discussing the Frick that I see HRAs and C corps and s-corps and I thought I was like man. I don't have time to research like What the pros and cons are of this like GPT, please help me out and that's a perfect minutiae example of
I have no idea what this is. I just have a question and a theory that I would like tested. I need to start using it more often when I am walking with the, ⁓ the voice, like the, actual co yeah, there's a conversational version. I get to talk with Vale from open AI and say, Vale, I've got some problems I need to talk to you about today.
Nick Loudon (47:01)
It'll just chat with you.
She's like, what's wrong,
bud?
Zach Stevens (47:15)
⁓ wow. sounds like something's on your mind. How can I help you?
Nick Loudon (47:17)
This is bad. I don't
want to talk to them. That's the one thing I haven't tried yet is talking to it. I don't want to do it.
Corey Haines (47:21)
I actually
I actually don't like it. I just purely like the, the, the speech to dictation feature. ⁓ the conversational to me, like takes me out of that kind of vibing state of mind where I'm just thinking out loud and I'm more like trying to curate what I'm saying, especially in like a short amount of time, because then it's like, what'd you say? I missed, I missed that. Or like, tell me again. ⁓
Nick Loudon (47:28)
of dictating. Yeah.
Zach Stevens (47:43)
Hmm.
Corey Haines (47:52)
But yeah, the definitely like speech is definitely a big part of vibe coding. And it's a big part of my marketing now, especially for content creation. You know what mean? Even just months ago, I was like, dude, why are you even trying to write a blog post? Just talk and just have the AI start to organize your thoughts. That's how I finished the last like third of the book was I just did all that speech dictation into ChatGPT and then kept copying and pasting the contents.
Zach Stevens (48:10)
Mm-hmm.
Corey Haines (48:21)
because I was like, this is too much for me to like write and self edit. And like, yeah, there's definitely an art to writing and writing is good because it makes you think very clearly. But when you're just trying to pen to paper and like thoughts out of your brain, there's like nothing better right now than the AI speech to dictation.
Zach Stevens (48:38)
Mm-hmm.
in that.
Nick Loudon (48:44)
All right, we have been talking for a long time. It's crazy that on an episode with no notes, we talked for this long. And we could probably talk for another two hours. Any final thoughts before we close it out?
Corey Haines (48:57)
If anyone has a very specific vibe coding or vibe marketing use case or workflow, please let us know. Yeah.
Nick Loudon (49:03)
Let's hear it. Yeah. Show us what we don't see.
Zach Stevens (49:06)
Yeah, I
love that.
Nick Loudon (49:08)
Cool. Gentlemen, great pod. Thank you for teaching us, Corey, about vibe marketing. Next week we'll be talking about vibe something else. Who knows? Tune in next week. Okay. We will see you next time. Bye.
Corey Haines (49:17)
Designing.
Zach Stevens (49:18)
you
Corey Haines (49:20)
matter of time.