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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. I'm your horse, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to a Dr. Emma Kell. Emma is director of those that can. She has 26 years of experience as a teacher and leader in UK Secondary Schools, and currently teachers in alternative provision.
[00:00:22] She's a qualified performance coach and speaks regularly [00:00:25] on. Goal, culture and communication, teacher wellbeing, recruitment and Retention. Emma has written for a variety of publications, including Tees and BBC Teach. She's Completed a Doctorate on Teacher Wellbeing and Parenting, and is author of How to Survive in Teaching, A Little Guide for Teachers Wellbeing and Self-Care, and a Little Guide for Teachers Engaging Parents and Carers.
[00:00:48] Her fourth book, [00:00:50] the Real Lives of Teachers, was published in January 20, 26. And she's co-edited questions on teacher wellbeing due for publication with Routledge in June, 2026. In her spare time, Emma is mum to two teenagers and two golden retrievers. It was an absolute pleasure to chat to Emma. I'm not sure we managed to stay on track throughout the podcast, but if you [00:01:15] stay with us, we discuss.
[00:01:16] What we really mean when we talk about wellbeing, the current challenges facing the sector and the absolute joy that working in education can bring, as well as dungarees color coordinated bookshelves, and the importance of laughter. Enjoy
[00:01:36] how, hi Emma. How are you?
[00:01:38] Emma: Hi, Julie. I'm fine, [00:01:40] thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:41] Julie: Oh, very lovely to have you. Just kind of pre-recording, Emma and I were discussing our backgrounds. Both of us are sat in front of multi-colored rainbow coordinated bookshelves, which is super gorgeous. But we were just discussing how difficult it is to actually find.
[00:02:00] By Wimmer,
[00:02:02] Emma: it was someone else's idea. They were looking at my [00:02:05] bookshelf said and said, you should color code that. So I did, and everybody I meet loves it. But yeah, I have, I, I was saying I have at least three copies of at least four books in there because, uh, I couldn't find them, so I bought them again.
[00:02:17] Um, so some of my favorite authors, you're doing very well.
[00:02:22] Julie: Oh dear. So we've definitely kind of established very quickly that we're aligned, aren't we, Emma? We're on the same page.
[00:02:28] Emma: Absolutely.
[00:02:29] Julie: So, [00:02:30] Emma, you wear more hats than a millionaire, um, teacher, author, trainer, court, governor, podcaster, and I know that you've still managed to remain.
[00:02:43] Grounded for some of that time in the classroom. So where did it all begin? Tell me about your journey into and through education.
[00:02:51] Emma: Gosh, where did it all begin? It probably began [00:02:55] with a university pub night out with me wearing a pair of extremely baggy navy blue dungarees, um, which I thought were the coolest thing.
[00:03:07] The world and to be, to be honest, if I could get away with dunes now, I would. Um, 'cause I think they're amazing things. And one of my friends had, um, I was slightly insulted, had told me I look like a children's TV presenter. And [00:03:20] then I started organizing the tables in the pub. And then the same friend I've said, you are such a teacher.
[00:03:27] I think from that moment it was almost this inevitable trajectory. And then I sort of did the, yeah, can I do a master's thing? And then dragged out my master's for a couple of years. It was almost like putting off the inevitable. Um, so I mean, I mean, frankly, I'd be crap at anything else. Julie, [00:03:45] I mean, and this is, no, this is true.
[00:03:46] You know, I have tried other things and as part of running my own business, I have to do other things. But you know, when I'm in a classroom, I am me and in its purest form, and when I'm working with teachers, I get it in a way that I just don't get things like, um, oh, I dunno. Taxes. You know, just, just, just generally
[00:04:09] Julie: [00:04:10] spreadsheets.
[00:04:10] Emma: The spreadsheets, taxes being a grownup. Yeah, it's an excuse to be childish, actually. Childlike. Childlike. It's an excuse to keep on, keep hold of you in a child, isn't it? I mean, I did stop teaching. I, I'll, I won't do the whole journey, but to cut through to the end. I did stop teaching six years ago 'cause um, I decided to set up my business.
[00:04:31] I'd written one book, I'd done my doctorate. I wanted to kind of, I'd been. [00:04:35] Contact, I've been in contact with other teachers across different schools, and I really loved that. So I thought, right, I'll give that a go. Um, started my own business and I remember sitting in, it wasn't an office at that stage, it was my front room surrounded by my kids' toys, my husband's camera gear.
[00:04:51] He's a journalist having to kind of pick my way through to my desk and then just sitting there completely inanimate. Kind of [00:05:00] not knowing how to organize myself without school bells or, or that sense of adrenaline that you get in a school day or people in front of me. Um, and, um, I quickly realized that I really, really missed being part of a school.
[00:05:13] So. After about three weeks, I think it was, all of that, three weeks of, of, of sitting in my office trying to be a grownup, running a business. I got in touch with Deborah Rutley, who we both know, [00:05:25] and basically Audaciously said, got any jobs going, uh, and, and being Deborah, um, on very much cut of the same cloth.
[00:05:31] I think I met her on Friday and started on Monday. Uh, so got myself back into the classroom that way, so I'm still in. Yeah, and that's really important to me. And I know a lot of people doing brilliant work. Of the type that I do who are no longer in the classroom. And that's great because you do, you, as my kids always say, but for me, keeping [00:05:50] that one foot in the classroom is partly about understanding, getting it, knowing what it's like to know that your lesson's being observed tomorrow, or to have to tidy up that box of resources or to have to meet the needs of that child who you've never met before.
[00:06:05] Um, but it's also quite selfish, you know? It's, for me, it's for, it's about, um. Oh, I dunno. Just feeling like my purest version of myself when I'm in the classroom. And, um, [00:06:15] my, my Thursdays when I teach are by far my most rewarding and my most exhausting day. So shout out to Chess Brook Education Support Center, which is an alternative provision setting in Watford.
[00:06:24] Just, it does amazing work and. Certainly keeps me on my toes.
[00:06:30] Julie: I love that.
[00:06:30] Emma: The whole journey is, I've been teaching for 20, I'm in my 27th year of teaching. Started off secondary, mainstream, secondary schools, did mainstream secondary schools for [00:06:40] just over 20 years down in the southwest of England, and then mainly in London.
[00:06:44] Probably cut my teeth at, have a stock school in Camden where. Started in the year 2000. Uh, it was the lowest achieving school in Camden. Highest number of refugees of any school in Europe. It had barbed wire over the walls. And my mom cried 'cause she drove to see where I was working and she cried and I was so happy.
[00:07:03] There I was pig and poo [00:07:05] happy. Uh. We got told to F off once a week. There were fights constantly. Um, but it was that period. It was the London Challenge. There was money, there was money in schools, and there was a real sense of education, education, education. And the school just improved dramatically during the five years I was there.
[00:07:22] And I was able to do things like take kids abroad each year. I mean, I was. Mid twenties who trusted me taking a load of teenagers abroad, [00:07:30] honestly. Um, but we went to Barcelona, we went to Berlin, we went to Paris, we went to the south of France. We took them out onto the water. You know, we just, uh, so I got to take these kids out of London and just, yeah, just, um, I'm still in touch with lots of them and they, they do say those.
[00:07:48] Trips formed the blueprint for their lives. So that was why I really cut my teeth, I think. And then, uh, yeah, and then kept working [00:07:55] in London and then I, I moved into alternative provision about six years ago, so around the same time as I started the business. So yes. So still very much a teacher.
[00:08:03] Julie: I love that there was so many bits of that story that I relate to personally, um, without turning it into.
[00:08:09] You know, the making it above me, but like even damp, the dungarees, like I still wear dungarees. So Emma don't like, yeah. I used to buy them in Affleck Palace in [00:08:20] Manchester and they were my staple. Um, but yeah, still wear a dre honestly, but also just that. Almost what felt like a bit of a golden time in education and, and certainly I was working in it too with that education, education, education.
[00:08:32] And like you, at the age of 2324, was taking kids to Paris and to London with a very limited risk assessment. Like that bit horrifies me. Not at all. It's like I, [00:08:45] what was I thinking? Um, but yeah. And there is something really special isn't there, about being in the classroom. And, and certainly I experienced that when you move into senior leadership, as many people do, and that bit is taken away and.
[00:08:59] When you step back in, you realize, don't you, that that's what it's all about. So gorgeous to hear your story there. Um, now Emma, as well as kind of, as I say, you've got all of these [00:09:10] hats. One of them that is kind of really quite prolific is your book writing and your penmanship, and, and you've got. Three books out and another one on the way.
[00:09:22] But I wonder whether we can just talk for a minute about your latest book, which is Real Lives of Teachers published by Sage, just came out at the end of 2025, I think. Is that right? And the blurb on the back says, A [00:09:35] Transformative guide to help teachers thrive, find resilience, and make positive choices.
[00:09:41] For their careers and kind of what I felt when I was reading it. It's a great read for people. I think no matter where you are in your education career, I kind of feel like it lands, um, at all levels and, and what certainly shines through is your passion for education and, and kind of that just shone through there in that [00:10:00] kind of, um, little potted history that you gave us.
[00:10:03] But what kind of motivated you to write this book? So why this book and why now?
[00:10:08] Emma: You know when something seems like a really good idea and then you realize what you've done. So, um, I think, uh, three and a half years ago, it came to me and my, my, my ideas tend to come to me at random places, so usually in the car, usually on a really boring motorway, and I'd been [00:10:25] increasingly having conversations with people.
[00:10:28] As I did from my first book actually, about the factors that encourage people to stay in the profession and thrive and the factors which cause them to struggle and ultimately, in too many cases, to walk away. And I'd been writing about and talking about wellbeing a lot, and I'm still very, very passionate about wellbeing.
[00:10:46] But I'd started to notice that when I was telling [00:10:50] people about what I meant by wellbeing. I was saying it's not the fluffy extra Bolton stuff. It's not the yoga for all staff. It's not the chocolate and the staff from, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. And then I would find myself saying, it's literally everything else.
[00:11:06] It's culture, it's policies. It's how you feel on a Monday morning. It's how you apologize when you make a mistake, not if it's how you [00:11:15] say good morning. It's, it's, it's everything about how. We exist in schools. And so I wanted to go deeper than wellbeing, so I wanted to speak to teachers. 'cause I have the huge privilege of having access to many, many, many teachers.
[00:11:33] And actually at this stage, I wanna say educators, not teachers because obviously schools aren't made up of so many more people than just teachers. Um, [00:11:40] and it is called real lives of teachers. There was a bit of debate with the publisher because it is very much suitable for, you know, teaching assistant school business managers office.
[00:11:48] Staff because anyone who works in a school, um, is absolutely crucial to the running of the school. So, so yeah. So I wanted to look at the factors which keep people in and the factors which drive them away, but very much with a mixture of realism. So there are chapters in this book, which I found [00:12:05] really hard to write the chapter on.
[00:12:07] Challenging times teaching during challenging times. I actually had to have a couple of extra supervision sessions during that chapter because I felt myself actually being drawn into what one coach she called said, it's not burnout, it's despair. And I could feel myself being drawn into almost this despair, the chapter on, um, life happens and some of [00:12:30] the absolutely.
[00:12:32] Terrible things which have happened to teachers, but not just the things that happened from miscarriages to bereavement, but then how they were treated by their schools. You know, the person who said they, who was told they were letting their school down when they went to their father's funeral, you know, this, this kind, the person who was told, um, that they had to get back to work after having a miscarriage.
[00:12:51] You know, these stories where you just. Eye watering, [00:12:55] um, uh, where just, I mean, I mean, your tagline is still human. You know, the, the, the sheer inhumanity of our, oh God, it makes me angry. You can hear it, of our performativity agenda in many, many pockets of the sector that I, I really struggled for. A couple of years of my career.
[00:13:15] So I, I had a taste of it, lost a lot of weight, became very monosyllabic at home, [00:13:20] lost my joy for the profession. Completely, almost completely. Um, so I've forgotten what the question was. So, so what made me write it? Oh, yes. So, so yes. You know, when you have a great project and you go, right, okay, I'm gonna do this.
[00:13:33] I'm gonna dig in and I'm gonna, and these are some of the, the areas I'm gonna talk about. And then you start and you think, oh my goodness, I have just taken on the most enormous. Project, who am I to talk about and write [00:13:45] about the real lives of all teachers in the world, ever? But then I calmed myself down and got myself outta my own way.
[00:13:50] And what I did, what, what I love doing most, which is just to go back and speak to people. So I asked people for their stories. Um, uh, some of them I spoke to, some of them submitted their stories in writing. And then I used, I allowed myself to be guided by those stories. So there's a mixture of realism and pragmatism, but also.
[00:14:09] Very [00:14:10] much that, um, and I'm adamant about this, that this is not the hardest job in the world. You can go onto social media and you can see people, and I get it. I do get it. Absolutely. I get it. But ranting and raging about what an awful job it is and what a mug you'd have to be to ever have to consider being, being in the classroom.
[00:14:26] But frankly, these people are ambassadors for our profession, and they're putting people off, they're putting good people off, and it drives me insane. And I get it. You know, if it's not for you, [00:14:35] absolutely don't do it. Go and do something else. You've got loads of skills as everyone says. Off you go off your pop, um, and then maybe come back to it later.
[00:14:43] I get that completely. But it's not the hardest job in the world. You know, being a paramedic is hard. Being a social worker is hard. Being a lawyer is hard. You know, being a journalist is hard, like lots and lots of tough professions in the world. Um, and in fact, um, one of the. Challenges I've got for people is, um, so we know from [00:15:00] education support teacher wellbeing index that teachers are the most depressed, anxious, alcoholic, insomniac people in the country, or it's certainly above average for all of those things.
[00:15:10] We know that grim reading, but I wonder whether we might also be some of the most joyful, um, and. By that, um, there's a bit of data on laughter. Have you heard this data on laughter? In laughter? [00:15:25] So how many times a day do children laugh? Uh, and I think it's, I think it's University of Pennsylvania. This research came from, which is between 300 400.
[00:15:34] And how many times a day do adults laugh? Uh, between 14 and 17. So we get to work with the creatures who laugh and if you don't believe me, tune into your nearest young person. 'cause when I read that, I thought, nah. And then I gave my daughter [00:15:50] and her friend a lift and it was just constant to the point of being almost annoying.
[00:15:54] Um, and I wonder. If there's a piece of research to be done on how many times a day people who work in schools laugh, because I'm going to suspect that we get more laughter than many other professions. So I dunno if I've answered the question
[00:16:10] Julie: and, but you know what? I think you've answered questions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, [00:16:15] 9.
[00:16:15] To be fair, I don't even know where to go with this now. Um. Like lords in there and, and interesting. I'm just gonna pick up on your end and point there. I was, um, recorded a podcast with Simon Button just a, a, a couple of days ago regarding kind of leadership and, and we had this same conversation and, and he said something very similar to what you've said is that, you know, it is a hard job but it's [00:16:40] not the hardest job.
[00:16:41] And we kind of had that conversation about how. It is really important that we push these narratives, and I think your books do do that. I think your books, you know, obviously you mentioned those chapters that you found difficult writing. You've mentioned the, the kind of the struggles or the, the difficulties facing the education profession, but there is still room for that.
[00:17:02] Voice around the [00:17:05] positives isn't there. And I think that's really important. And he also used that word joyful and talked about that kind of joy within the profession. And we had a, a, a conversation and, and I feel very much the same, you know, uh, working in education for 26 years. I laughed every single day, you know, I laughed.
[00:17:23] And he said he was mistaken by one of the children for King Charles. Like, and I mean, what is not funny about [00:17:30] that? Um, you know, it, everything is just gorgeous. That, that, you know, you're so right. You say it. And I think if anybody is thinking about buying any of your books, you do deal with the thorny subjects, but you also do deal with it in a very kind of positive way, which kind of.
[00:17:45] I think really works. So yeah, as I say, I don't know where I'm going with these questions. I think you've kind of covered why wellbeing is such an important focus for [00:17:55] you. That was one of my questions about, because it's a golden thread, isn't it? Through everything that you do. I know you wrote the teacher Wellbeing and Self care with Adrian Bethune.
[00:18:04] Um, it comes through in these two books. A lot of your work is around wellbeing. Has that stemmed from your own personal experience?
[00:18:11] Emma: Yes. Yes. So I, um, yeah, there's something about values. I write about values at the beginning of every single book I write, and I, I make [00:18:20] no apology for this because I remember sort of three or four, no, yeah, three or four years into my career interviewing for a middle leadership post, and someone asked me what my educational values were, and I looked at them as if I'd been slapped by a fish.
[00:18:33] I was, I had no idea. How to answer that question, and the reason I had no idea how to answer it is because I'd been in schools. Where my values [00:18:45] were shared by everyone around me. So that was just what it was like to work in a school. You laughed like a drain in the staff room. You turned the air blue with your account of your disastrous lessons.
[00:18:56] You brushed yourself off, you got back in again. Uh, you had people to lift you, you had people to tell you when you were being ridiculous and melodramatic and oversensitive. You had people to aspire to. Yeah. And, and, and the children. [00:19:10] Just kept me grounded. You know, I mentioned earlier you used to get told to f off once a week.
[00:19:14] It was never malicious. These children were just telling the world to F off because they weren't coping. And, you know, it was our job to build those relationships and build them up into the adults that so many of them have become. And I'm so proud of them. So I'd been really happy. And then what I did was after my, I think my third school, been there for many years, been really [00:19:35] happy.
[00:19:35] I I, I had an internal interview. Every time a coachee comes to me and says they, they have an. Internal interview, I sort of gird my loins on their behalf because internal interviews are so hard. External interviews, you go off, you'd never see these people again. You pop off, you do your thing, and internal is so exposing.
[00:19:53] So I had an internal interview essentially for a job I was already doing, and I absolutely [00:20:00] bd the interview. Didn't get the job sobbed. For hours on my friend's, very dirty office floor. I brushed myself off, but never really recovered. So in a STR I applied for a different job. And in a str I was hugely flattered that this, this school wanted me and in a str I accepted the job.
[00:20:23] And now I should [00:20:25] have known that. From the moment I walked in because my clothing, my hair, nothing matched, nothing, nothing felt quite right. And I'm not gonna say too much because I, I know a lot of people who are very happy at that school, but it wasn't right for me at all. And it was a very senior position, the most senior position I've had.
[00:20:45] And as I uh alluded to earlier, I became [00:20:50] very quickly. Very, very quiet at home. Uh, now, uh, if you're listening, you might gather that I'm not the quietest of people. Um, I've usually got something to say and people would ask me by about Christmas how work was going, and I would just shrug. I just stopped talking.
[00:21:07] I lost a lot of weight. I was working. And I'm still quite emotional about this actually. I was working such [00:21:15] long hours that I would quite regularly not see my girls from Monday through to Thursday. So I'd leave home before they got up. I'd get back after they'd gone to sleep. And when I did see them, I was just this husk who was incapable of being present.
[00:21:31] And, and it really, it nearly, uh, I, I haven't been through burnout. I know a lot of people who have, and I, I coach a lot of people who [00:21:40] have, I haven't, but it's the closest I came and it's the closest I came to leaving the profession. So I think it was that experience and then. Because of the nature of my work, people started to come to me and share their stories.
[00:21:52] Some of those outrageously inhumane stories that I mentioned, and I actually became really passionate about it because at the same time, of course, I was seeing and experiencing places that worked really well that [00:22:05] genuinely. Fostered a sense of more than just wellbeing. You know, pride, passion made people wanna work really hard, you know, pride, passion, community, striving, all laughter, all of those things.
[00:22:18] Um, so I was seeing. The different extremes and I thought, gosh, this is really interesting. How can one profession feel like such a completely different job from one context to another? [00:22:30] So yes, I really struggled, but I also had heard from a lot of people who had struggled to eye watering levels and I wanted to in a very careful way, and I am trained in anonymizing and so on, really expose some of those stories.
[00:22:45] Because some of them are just, you know, literally a job destroying somebody's life, destroying their self-esteem, destroying their relationship, destroying [00:22:55] their psychological security, their financial security. I, I, I see it all the time. And I wanted to understand more about what, as a sector we can do. So I, I, this is from my doctorate, but I always come back to it that there's the brom umbrellas circle.
[00:23:08] So you've got the external circle, which is the, um, societal. Elements. So what's going on in our broader society, government, and so on, that affects the profession. You've got the middle circle, which is what's going on at institutional [00:23:20] level, and you've got the inner circle, which is the, what's going on at personal level.
[00:23:25] And I, in my first book, commented on each of those and I came out with some recommendations and so on at each of those levels. But both Adrian and I are very, um, focused on what can we control. What can we control? So as individuals, one of our, something, Adrian and I say a lot, [00:23:45] it doesn't always feel like it, but you have more control than you realize.
[00:23:48] So I was, when I was in that job, that made me miserable. I was also, I didn't mention this, I was the most. Stubbornly annoying person to love because my friends, my family were saying, Emma, you're not you, this, and I was like, well, I can't leave. I can't leave these children. And I dug my heels in and eventually they had to be really, really very stern [00:24:10] with me in order to get me to move on.
[00:24:12] And of course. New school, new context, um, period of recovery. But, you know, I got my merger back
[00:24:20] Julie: and I think what you've kind of summed up there, and thank you for sharing that, Emma, because I appreciate it's not always easy is it, to revisit those difficult times, but what kind of came across there was.
[00:24:31] Like in line what you said about recognizing what [00:24:35] wellbeing is and wellbeing's a really slippery customer and obviously you and I work in these kind of same circles. I think it can be all defined. I think it can be misunderstood. Um, I think people think it's a ball torn. I've seen it not executed well in schools, which is exactly what you were speaking to, but actually.
[00:24:54] We have to get better and, and we always kind of stir this. It starts with defining wellbeing. Don't start [00:25:00] solving the problem of wellbeing before recognizing what it is. And actually wellbeing is culture, isn't it? You've kind of just summed that up there. And so we're not really talking about wellbeing.
[00:25:09] Wellbeing is the outcome and culture is the driver. All of those things that feed into the culture are what we need to be looking at. And you know, and, and I think you're right also, Ray there, that's that culturally different [00:25:25] schools, you know, we have to recognize that on an individual level as well, don't we?
[00:25:28] It's not necessarily the profession. Sometimes it is just different values, different cultures, and that's okay too. And that's okay to say actually these are not my. They don't align with me and they're making me feel not great. Doesn't mean there's necessarily something wrong with that, but actually I'm gonna go and find my tribe because you know, in life that's true as well, isn't it?
[00:25:49] And you [00:25:50] know, you know, I'm gonna find my donie wearing, um, scam and dude wearing you. See, look, this is how much I know my bronze. She's got a scam. And dude sweatshirt on. We'll find those. People. This kind of brings me, I, I was gonna ask some more questions about wellbeing there, but I kind of feel like you've, you've kind of covered them really.
[00:26:10] And I, um, if I just backtrack a bit, one of the things I was gonna sort of talk about is [00:26:15] how do we stop wellbeing becomes something teachers have to fix, but I think that model that you've just described is. There's, there's external factors, there's organizational, the institutional level, and then there's control.
[00:26:27] The controllables, isn't it? And I think anybody who's thinking about what does wellbeing look like from an organizational perspective, that's kind of the viewpoint you've gotta take, isn't it? You know, what can we do within our schools, but what can [00:26:40] we do as individuals as well? Mm. So we're gonna side swipe that a bit and one of the chapters in your new book, real Lives of Teachers, you talk about positive choices in career direction and you talk about, and I thought that was just really nice.
[00:26:55] It's only kind of a little bit of the book, but you talk about careers being squiggly or fruit salad and
[00:27:02] Emma: sweet salad. Yeah.
[00:27:04] Julie: Seeing [00:27:05] change as a failure? Can you just speak to that?
[00:27:07] Emma: Yeah, I mean, I mean, this is so internalized for so many of us. I mean, I'm, I'm gonna deduce that you and I are a similar age from the, um, length of time we've been teaching.
[00:27:17] So if you were brought up during the eighties, I think that linear notion. Of careers was very much embedded and we were sort of brought up in that era of what one of my coaches [00:27:30] calls this sort of, yeah, this eighties feminism, which is I can do everything a man can do and everything a woman can do and more.
[00:27:37] I don't need sleep, I don't need food. I can just do it all. Um, so that's linked, but it is also that, that very much that narrow view of, um, and it never came from my upbringing, you know, at all, but it came from the culture I [00:27:55] think that we were brought up in, which is that you proved your worth as a human being by achieving the next thing.
[00:28:01] So phoning up and saying, mom, dad, I've got my first teaching role. It's in a language college and I'm a language, um, languages teacher, mom, dad. I've got my second in department role. Mom, dad, I'm head of department mom, dad, I'm on senior leadership. And then, and, and then you almost imagine that, you know, one day, you know, [00:28:20] when you get your CEO position that you'll be really happy.
[00:28:23] It Oliver book. When writes about this, doesn't he? Yeah. We, we strive for the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And then I'll be happy. And then I'll be happy. And then I'll be happy. And then I'll be happy. Um, and I blindly, you know, I remember, you know, yes. Again, lots of sobbing, uh, you know, sobbing when I didn't get my first, second, third senior leadership position.
[00:28:40] 'cause I was ready to be a senior leader. And I wanted to be a senior and, and [00:28:45] actually what, this also speaks to something I talk about a lot in coaching. It's that conflation of the personal and the professional and that personal professional paradox that we face in teaching because we can. Hear and say, as much as we like, it's just a job.
[00:29:02] It's just a job. It's just a job. And I write about this in the book as well. Is this a job to you? Is it a profession? Is it a vocation? Is it a lifestyle? [00:29:10] That's up to you as sort of siding scale where you put it, but you need to be happy with that choice that you make. Because what we've got is we've got our value as human beings.
[00:29:21] And we've got our value as professionals. And it is so easy because this is such deeply human work to conflate the two completely. So you know, if you are a head teacher, you've got your name on the sign, [00:29:35] your school gets support off Ofsted. I'm thinking about Ruth Perry, of course, but I'm thinking about many other heads that I work with.
[00:29:43] That is your entire value as a human being called into question. And you can scale that right down to a. Slightly rubbish. Lesson observation. Well, I observed your lesson and really, I thought you were really good, but actually I'm not sure you are anymore. And I remember having feedback one like that once and just going [00:30:00] home and feeling devastated.
[00:30:01] Just a whole existential crisis from a slightly dodgy lesson observation, which I can laugh about now, but I wasn't laughing at the time. I wasn't laughing for years afterwards. So what I work on a lot in coaching is it, and it's a bit like. A surgeon doing a really complex operation, trying to remove an organ without touching the surrounding organs is gradually is sensitively separating out that person from that professional.
[00:30:24] [00:30:25] Just because that head teacher you've been working with for 10 years keeps changing his mind about whether or not he thinks you'd be a decent head teacher. How does he get to define your worth in this world? You know? And there are a lot of women of around our rage who are going through this, by the way, a lot of women of around our rage who are being assessed.
[00:30:42] On a daily basis or allowing themselves to be assessed. So yes, so I think that's important as well, that that conflation of the personal and the [00:30:50] professional, but that notion of fruit salad, careers, I can't name her because of confidentiality, but it came from a wonderful coachee of mine. And a lot of my coaches will come to me saying, I'm looking at the next step in my career.
[00:31:00] And then a lot will end up, actually, I'm gonna do a little bit of this and I'm gonna do a little bit of this. I'm gonna do a little bit of this, I'm gonna see how it goes, and then I might do more of this and less of this. And that freedom from that slippery ladder is amazing. You know it, [00:31:15] it's realizing that it doesn't have to be either or.
[00:31:17] It's not black and white, the next choice. So if you are, for example, if you're listening and you're struggling in your current role, you've got the potential to maybe go part-time. So go part-time or go a bit more part-time than you are now and use that extra day to build up whatever it is else you might wanna.
[00:31:35] You think you might want to be doing, whether that's tuition or coaching [00:31:40] or a counseling course or something completely different. Welding,
[00:31:44] Julie: dog weaving,
[00:31:44] Emma: dog walking. Every, every, that, that's my, my retirement plan dog walker. Um, yeah. So whatever it is, and, and it doesn't have to be that you resign, go to zero money and, you know, and have that terrifying feeling of, of nothing to fall back on.
[00:32:01] Julie: I think that's really interesting and I think. About that kind of [00:32:05] feeling stuck and feeling like that's the lad that has to be climbed and, and also what I experience talking to a lot of teachers is that they don't believe they have any other skills.
[00:32:17] Emma: Yeah.
[00:32:18] Julie: Like beyond that, without recognizing that huge skill set that kind of can be exploited.
[00:32:23] And um, and it's interesting 'cause my daughter's about to qualify as a teacher in which, you know, I'm really thrilled the amount [00:32:30] of people who said to me. Why didn't you try and put her off the amount of people, I cannot tell you, you know, and as 26 years as a happy teacher and 30 working in kind of the education space like that.
[00:32:45] Really, really, and it kind of goes back to what you said, didn't it? But anyway, the point I was trying to make is, is what I want her to see is. I wanted to see what that opens up and that it isn't [00:32:55] just start here and go here. Um, and I'm hoping she can kind of see those choices that you can go backwards, forwards, outside, inside, do some, you know, whatever.
[00:33:03] But at the moment, she just can't wait to get started. She loves it.
[00:33:07] Emma: Is she primary, secondary,
[00:33:09] Julie: primary, early years.
[00:33:11] Emma: There was, oh, hats off to her early years. Is, is, is, oh, I have so much respect for early years teachers.
[00:33:18] Julie: She comes in every [00:33:20] day full of little stories. She wants to tell me of little anecdotes, full of joy.
[00:33:25] It's just gorgeous. Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous. Um, okay, good. So, um, just one more thing about that book before we move on to kind of. There's a new book coming up. Um, actually I've probably got two questions. My first question is, your first book was written in about 2018, how to Survive in Teaching compared [00:33:45] to the landscape that you were talking about then.
[00:33:49] Was there anything that struck you as being wildly different in terms of the challenges faced by educators in 2025? As was?
[00:33:58] Emma: Short answer, yes. There were some perennial themes around teachers, perfectionism, how we're viewed in society, performativity and so on. There was some, and obviously the retention crisis and the [00:34:10] recruitment crisis continue.
[00:34:11] Um, I think this is gonna sound simplistic, but. Uh, for brevity, COVID was a line in the sand. So I remember speaking to someone who was involved in the COVID-19 social study in, uh, UCLA's COVID-19 social study in May, 2020. And they said if you were in any way at a disadvantage before COVID, you are likely to be at more of a disadvantage after COVID.
[00:34:33] So there are a number of [00:34:35] different factors, which mean, and for all my positivity and enthusiasm and passion, I do actually say this. I think it is arguably the hardest time in living memory to work in a school. The most challenging time. We still need to do it because there are children and the children aren't going anywhere.
[00:34:49] So we need good people like your daughter to be doing it and loving it. And we need to be nurturing them and looking after them and making sure that they see it through for as long as they want to. Um, but [00:35:00] what has changed? Uh, obviously we, we are seeing the, the tidal wave of, of need of our young people in terms of behavior.
[00:35:07] Send mental health. And so on and so forth. We're seeing the state of the world, which is absolutely terrifying at the moment. But this is actually something I was thinking about just before we started. Carl PPE put a post on LinkedIn about racism in schools yesterday, which I was talking to my daughter about, and I think there [00:35:25] is a level of.
[00:35:26] Hatred and intolerance, which now has a voice and is open in our society. And I can say this on here, I was gonna write it when I was worried they'd read it, but I can say this on here. Um, I've got a neighbor who's, whose views you could probably have deduced about my mixed race, marriage and everything else from, from the looks and the, and the supposedly jokey comments.[00:35:50]
[00:35:50] He now has a massive union jack outside his house. And he proudly went on the Tommy Robinson rally to claim his country back, and there is a level of now supposedly acceptable dialogue, which is. Happening in schools and in our communities where sexism, racism, [00:36:15] homophobia, transphobia, don't start me off, are being openly voiced in a way they wouldn't have been before.
[00:36:22] COVID, I'm not naive, I don't, of course those prejudices existed before, but there was a a moment for me that I noticed when. The Reform party. There were three incidents. There was one of racism about shooting, using the, using the channel as [00:36:40] target practice. There was one horrible ableist comment and there was one homophobic comment, and they more or less came out on the same day and they were quoted verbatim on the news.
[00:36:49] So the words that they had used were quoted on the news. And I remember listening to that and thinking, why are you, why are you, and it almost for me, it was, well, from my awareness, it was from that moment that suddenly it's okay to say the stuff. Yeah. Whereas before you would've maybe self-censored and thought this [00:37:05] isn't really acceptable.
[00:37:07] And, and, and the Andrew Tate, uh, the Andrew Tate boys, as we call them at home, it's, and it's often, someone said to me the other day, it's not what they don't say. It's not what they say, it's what they don't say. It's the, I'm not gonna give the football to you 'cause you're a girl. So, yeah. So I think that's maybe the key thing, that there are many things that have changed, but I think that's probably the key thing.
[00:37:24] Julie: Yeah, it's that permission, isn't it? I absolutely agree with you that permission that it's okay to say things [00:37:30] has changed. Considerably. Um, yeah, which of course opens up. A whole new challenge, doesn't it, within the classroom that wasn't there before. Um, and for schools to address and to, you know, kind of respond to.
[00:37:47] So yeah, it is, it is definitely, um, as you already said, it's different and it's, you know, and, and it's more [00:37:55] challenging. And the, there was one last little thing in this book and it maybe ties in with it. Yeah. I think you talk about reclaiming resilience. And I have lots of conversations with it. 'cause lots of people kind of come to us and, and say like, okay, can you work with my staff to be more resilient?
[00:38:11] And you know, I liked your distinction, which I think you know, was made really clear in the book was we need to make the distinction between. [00:38:20] Resilience and endurance. And I think maybe it's, when people ask the support work around resilience, what they're asking you to do is say, and you just get staff to shut up and kind of crack on.
[00:38:33] But yeah. You talk about reclaiming resilience, don't you Tell me a little bit about that.
[00:38:37] Emma: For a long time I loath the word resilience and, and, and, you know, we need to be very careful with the word resilient because I, I suggested it to [00:38:45] a coachee the other day and she said, never use that word with me.
[00:38:47] And she'd been through. A fairly challenging life, and she hated the word because people had used it as a kind of badge of honor for her. And the way she saw it was she'd had no choice. The other way it that I experienced, it was in the job that I've told you about already, where I really struggled. It was not many people are resilient enough to work here.
[00:39:09] Not many people [00:39:10] are resilient enough to be criticized, you know, death by a thousand cuts every single day. Not many people are resilient enough. To be told how many different colored pens they need to be marking in and then put on a support plan because they forgot the purple one. Um, um, you just
[00:39:27] Julie: the purple pen of power.
[00:39:29] Emma: Um, so I, I loathed the word resilience for a long time. So when I'm talking about resilience, I [00:39:35] suppose I'm talking about post COVID. What am I talking about? I'm talking about taking that slightly dodgy lesson, observation, shedding your tears, having your moment, speaking to a trusted friend, and then using all of your tools and all of your strategies to shed that, to put it in a box, put it on a shelf, move on, because that does not define you as a human being.
[00:39:56] I'm talking about the fact that children have changed. We are asking [00:40:00] People to do a different job now. And that's the key thing that's changed between the books as well. The job we are doing is different to what it was 10 years ago. We are asking people to do less with, more children are less, less money, you know, uh, fewer resources and children have changed and.
[00:40:15] It is hard. You know, it. I used to, I used to say to pretty much anyone who wanted to be a teacher, go for it. If you like kids, go for it. Now. I, I ask a few more [00:40:25] questions. I do think it's, I, I, I, working with ECS is my favorite thing. I love it. But there is a level of optimism, grit, boundaries, sense of humor that is needed, I think, to really thrive in the profession.
[00:40:38] Uh, and one of those things is resilience, and it's the ability to focus on the controllables. Go in with passion and moral purpose, but know that actually you might change that child's life. [00:40:50] You might change that family's life. You are gonna make a huge amount of difference. You're gonna make a legacy.
[00:40:54] You are not gonna change the world. It's being able to really focus on that locus of control, which I know I've mentioned four or five times, but I'm the mother of teenagers and it's. Basically needs to be tattooed on my arm. Uh, is the circles of control. Focus on your circles of control. That is true resilience, that I know that this [00:41:15] child might struggle when they get home, but while they are in this building in my classroom, I will do my best for them.
[00:41:21] And by my best, I don't mean multicolored worksheets or. Singing and dancing or, or, or glossy resources. I mean, noticing when that child's a bit quieter than usual. I mean, finding a way of making 'em laugh, I mean. Noticing when they smile and smiling back. So that's what I mean.
[00:41:39] Julie: Talk to me about your [00:41:40] new book.
[00:41:40] Emma: So the new book. The new book I am Well you are gonna, you can talk to us as well. So, Adrian Bethune and I were, um, asked by ledge to write another book about wellbeing, and I'm gonna be really honest. And I'm going to say that I thought flipping egg, hasn't everything been said about wellbeing already? Um, but the, the key word was edit.
[00:42:02] And Adrian and I had never edited a book before, [00:42:05] and that was so, has become so exciting because what we were able to do was we were able to co to collect a group of diverse. Authors, um, from different areas of the profession and get their perspectives on different elements of teacher wellbeing. And it has been, honestly, reading that book through as I did yesterday for the final edits is such an [00:42:30] honor because I.
[00:42:31] No way has everything been said? There are so many different amazing perspectives and practical ideas. You know, my wellbeing improved as a result of reading that book because I was like, oh my God, I haven't thought of that. Um, but um, yeah. So you are one of the authors. So why don't you tell us a bit about your chapter?
[00:42:50] Julie: Oh God no. You see, I wasn't prepared for this.
[00:42:54] Emma: There [00:42:55] we go. We have to act on our toes. We're teachers. Tell us a bit about your chapter.
[00:43:00] Julie: Yeah, my chapter, I can't even remember what it was called now, ever. Um, it was about, um, kind of navigating challenging times. Was it, what, what was it, Emma,
[00:43:11] Emma: looking after yourself during challenging times.
[00:43:14] Was the chapter that you wrote, signs to look out for when you're struggling, [00:43:20] boundaries, who to turn to? Does every ECT struggle at times or is it just me? That's beautiful.
[00:43:25] Julie: Oh, so yeah. So, okay. Now I remember writing this and, and kind of maybe similar to what you did, like I kind of collected some voices and I, I kind of.
[00:43:34] Sort out the ECTs and, and what their experiences were like. And they were brilliant. You know, people sharing with me what they'd found difficult, their kind of [00:43:45] ways of overcoming. Um, and, and that lived experience was really important. What does it mean to be like an ECT now? 'cause me as an ECT was back in 19 9 96, we didn't have a thing called ECT.
[00:43:57] I mean, I was of the door hand called planet gener. I didn't, I wasn't even fully qualified when I started teaching. So there we go. Um. So it was lovely to gather those voices, but I think the thing for me is really about [00:44:10] noticing and understanding the signs, and understanding the whispers, because I think it can be really noisy in our heads, in our worlds, in our experience.
[00:44:19] And I think getting better at listening to those whispers and knowing how to respond early on is key. Before it gets to the crisis behaviors or the behaviors that are then really harmful. So I think in my chapter that's what I really want to do was kind of [00:44:35] get, kind of get better at noticing when things maybe don't feel great and get better, therefore at responding earlier on.
[00:44:43] Um, so yeah, I think that's where my chapter was going.
[00:44:47] Emma: It was really bright and super practical. And of course the key thing about the new book is that it is for. Ts it is for trainees and ecs. It's for new teachers coming into the profession. So helping them to [00:45:00] equip or to recognize the tools already in their toolkits, and then maybe add a few extra tools to their toolkits.
[00:45:06] So whether you are, uh, um, someone with caring responsibilities at home, whether you are looking for a new school and trying to find the right match for you, um, whether you are going through a particularly challenging time at the moment, there are just numerous. Um, absolute gems in there. I think that will be published in June.
[00:45:24] Um, I [00:45:25] think that is the latest publication date that we have, but we will make lots of noise about it at the time.
[00:45:30] Julie: And we've gotta get better, haven't we? We've gotta get better at stopping. I can't remember what the analogy is exactly. Um, stop fishing. People out upstream
[00:45:39] Emma: need to move upstream and see why they're drowning.
[00:45:41] Julie: Yeah. And I think getting in with ECTs and, and, and kind of, that's why I think this book has, you know, got real purpose and [00:45:50] real benefits and I certainly will be buying it for my daughter and all of her friends when they graduate. That's gonna be my graduation gift to them all.
[00:46:01] Emma: What a brilliant idea.
[00:46:02] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So Emma, I could talk to you all day. Um. I'm very conscious of the time. Just a couple of questions to finish with then. So you mentioned there that it kind of co-editing this book [00:46:15] that you learn stuff about your own wellbeing, but what are you doing? What are you non-negotiables? How do you look after
[00:46:20] Emma: your wellbeing?
[00:46:21] I can go, sorry, I'm left. Thing because as I always say, when I stand up in front of any audiences, I may be a wellbeing expert, but I am no wellbeing guru. The reason I'm so passionate about, and I I sound so fresh when I write about these things, is that I constantly have to renegotiate my own boundaries.[00:46:40]
[00:46:40] I. Constantly catch myself suddenly starting on a piece of work at nine 30 at night or being distracted on a Saturday. So things I try to, so please don't, uh, Adrian's much better. Adrian Bethune speak to him. He does, he does mindfulness in all sorts. He runs. Um, so what, what do I do for my insanity? I, um, I got a dog.
[00:47:00] I've got two dogs. I've got a golden retriever and another golden retriever. Three and a [00:47:05] half year old and a four month old. Um, and my dog walks. One of the reasons I got dogs was I would ask people what, what, what nourishes them in my wellbeing sessions? And every single session someone would talk about their flipping dog.
[00:47:17] And my family had been going on and on and on about getting a dog for years. So I went home eventually and said, all right then. And I haven't looked back. Honestly. My dog walked. 'cause how can you be miserable when you're out with a grinning [00:47:30] daft golden retriever? That's just done something else. Really silly.
[00:47:33] Um, that's the first one. Um, my baths are my absolute, um, godsend. Yes. Lots of time in the bath started when my kids were little. It was the one place where they couldn't get to me and has continued. Um, for me, laughter is a really big thing. Laughter and humor. And actually. When I struggle and I do struggle, um, and I struggle through the winter a lot, you know, with my energy [00:47:55] levels, and I sometimes struggle when, when I'm, I'm co I'm coaching, working with lots of people who are struggling.
[00:47:59] I find myself, you know, starting to dip and I, I, I need someone to make me laugh. And, and I, if I, if I laugh and I notice that it feels unfamiliar. And I think, oh my goodness, when was the last time I did that? I know I need to seek out my best friend Helen, who will just say something ridiculous and make me laugh and isn't a teacher and has no trouble with any of this [00:48:20] martyrdom that, you know, that we get involved with.
[00:48:22] So, laughter, friendship, connection, and the, the best piece of wellbeing advice, and I don't always adhere to it, but I've got one at the moment, is, um, have something in your diary that you're really looking forward to. Best piece of wellbeing. It does not to be something expensive at all. So I have booked at the end of March, I'm going down to.
[00:48:38] Devon, I'm going to meet one of my very, very old friends from university, uh, and I'm going to meet Lisa Lee. We [00:48:45] whose supervisor? Um, in person. Yes, I know you can look jealous as much as you'd like. I'm gonna have lunch with her and I'm really excited. I'm gonna stay in a hotel on my own without dogs or teenagers, so I've got something in my diary to look forward to.
[00:49:01] But I am no guru. I, you know, I am no guru. I am constantly working on it, which is why. I, I speak about it with such [00:49:10] freshness. I speak about it as if I've never heard it before.
[00:49:13] Julie: I think it would just go back to that Oliver Bergman book. I was reading 4,000 weeks again the other day for a piece of work that I'm doing.
[00:49:19] And, um, he says the same thing, doesn't he? About time management. Like I'm writing this book because it is like basically something I need to learn how I do. Um, and then throws it on his head and says, you can't manage time, which is, um. You know, really what the whole book's about. Um, okay. I love [00:49:35] that. And, and you know, a quick shout to Lisa Lee Weston, who is also gonna be a guest on the podcast.
[00:49:40] Oh, I've twisted her arm.
[00:49:41] Emma: Awesome. Human bear.
[00:49:43] Julie: Okay, so you might feel like you've already answered this question, but we have to ask it 'cause I was our, it is always our final question. If there was one kind thing you could suggest that listeners could do for themselves today, what would it be? Anything at all.
[00:49:58] Emma: Count the wins, [00:50:00] write them down, capture them, because we have a negativity bias as human beings, and we are not wired to be happy. We are wired to survive. And the number of times I've used the phrase, you need some wins in coaching in February is I've lost count. And if you can't. Think of them, then engineer them.
[00:50:19] So if you, you go, go out and seek some wins because you will have them ask, [00:50:25] ask, ask your children in school, what's going well? Just, just go in on Monday morning and say, Hey guys, we're just gonna review where we're at the moment, what's going really well for you at the moment. And they'll tell you, um, stop and speak to that parent who always just looks so grateful to you for your very existence.
[00:50:38] 'cause there will be probably at least. 10 of them, um, you know, gravitate towards the people who make you laugh. Um, gravitate towards the people who challenge you in healthy ways, but literally count your wins, [00:50:50] write them down, capture them, keep them, would be my one.
[00:50:53] Julie: Lovely. Thank you Emma. It has been an absolute pleasure.
[00:50:56] I think you've brought. Joy, you've brought passion, you've brought meaning, you've brought, you know, your wisdom to date, so thank you so much for joining us.
[00:51:06] Emma: My absolute pleasure. It's been amazing.