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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (03:51)
So part of the reason why this was the first episode with the two of you and not having just one guest, it was this idea I had where the two of you started, full disclosure everyone.
Madison, Noah and I work together. They work here at Mixtape Digital. We're not shilling for Mixtape Digital today. Mixtapedigital.com. But at the same time, they both came on board right around when they graduated and met them both through connections at Indiana University. Go Hoosiers, or when I spoke at Indiana. And they've been working with us here, goodness, since the spring. And in this time, one thing I realized
is that there's a ton of grads out there looking for jobs. And I wanna talk a bit today about like comparison, friend groups, how you're all approaching the market. But I thought who better to talk about it than two people who kind of like had not only experienced a bit of that and had to experience some patience, but also you probably have friends and group texts where you have one friend who's, how did he land that job? And you have another friend, you're like, how is she still looking for work? Because she's smarter than that other friend, right?
The element of like chance that goes into it, like it's plinko on the price is right, right? Like literally just kind of like who you talk to when. Sound good? Great. Before we get into the nuts and bolts, the same question I ask every time. If your career or your current role had a two to three song playlist, what songs would you include and what made you choose them? And I'll start with you, Madison.
Noah Burlingame (05:05)
Yeah.
Madison Stiles (05:06)
Great.
Okay, so I picked two songs. The first one that I think probably sums it up the best is The Middle by Jimmy Eat World. And I think it's especially stepping into a first role, just starting out. You kind of feel like you don't know anything. And I think it's really easy to feel just out of your element and kind of have to figure things out as you go. And I felt like that when I started off part-time.
And then I felt like that again when I started full-time. So it's just one of those feelings that you have to work through and just trust in yourself and you'll figure it out. You know what you're doing. So that's a big one. And then my second one is You Get What You Give by The New Radicals because this experience has taught me.
From the job search to starting your career and every day at work, you really get out of it what you put into it. So if you're willing to ask questions and take every opportunity that comes your way, just try and learn as much as you can and absorb it. I think you'll get a really great experience out of it. And that's what led me to getting this great position at Mixtape. So I'm really grateful for that.
Tom Hootman (06:31)
Great position. Shilling already, I love it. So like
The New Radicals pick is a deep cut. I love that pick. Like seriously, was like, ooh, damn. And it's prescient, it's topical, it works. Great choices. Noah, you're up.
Madison Stiles (06:38)
Not that side.
Thank you.
Noah Burlingame (06:45)
Yeah, I mean, I think along the similar lines of The Middle, my pick was Welcome to the Jungle by Guns N' Roses. I feel like just getting plopped into first the part-time role and then the full-time role is definitely different than anything I've ever done in my life. And I don't even want to say overwhelming, because I think, you know, not to shill but you guys have done such a fantastic job training us and teaching us. It's never felt like too much, but it has been like.
We're learning paid search, we're learning paid social, we're learning influencer, we're learning SEO. There's just so much and it really is a jungle and I love it. It's fantastic.
Tom Hootman (07:19)
One of my favorite all-time albums, Appetite for Destruction.
Noah Burlingame (07:20)
I mean, it is
the greatest debut album of all time, but I don't think this podcast wants to hear my hour long thoughts on that.
Tom Hootman (07:23)
full time.
Let's make it ⁓ Indiana born musicians and lead singers podcast and we can talk about Shannon Hoon. You have a second. How many songs did you pick two or three? Great.
Noah Burlingame (07:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
I picked two and then I picked,
You're Gonna Go Far, Kid by The Offspring. Just cause I'm a little confident and I think you guys personally are going to take me far. I feel like being here is just a fantastic spot to start. And I'm really excited to go far with this company.
Tom Hootman (07:54)
I more shilling. I love it. I want to thank you both for not picking a Taylor Swift song. ⁓ It's interesting because when Oasis toured North America felt like three guests in a row were all picking Oasis songs. And then when Taylor Swift released her album, three guests, four guests in a row were picking Taylor Swift songs. I appreciate the fact and this is how I know you two are amazing that you both went like music from like my heyday like a lot of picks in that mid 90s late 80s era. Thank you very much. That means a lot.
Noah Burlingame (07:55)
Exactly.
Tom Hootman (08:20)
two things I want to talk about, like moving into a part-time role first, we did do things very differently because we're, we just launched, we're trying to figure things out as we go. And then also I'll hope we get a chance to dive into a bit of like the cross channel training versus what a traditional agency will do, which is say, Noah welcome to the team. You're going to be a paid social manager plop. And that's all you learn. Madison, you're SEO plop.
And then congratulations, that's your career, right? So it's like a bit like the military when they're like your infantry or you're a journalist or you're like, there's a scene in full metal jacket where they're just kind of telling people where they're going to go based on like, we feel like you should be, you'd be good. And I like breaking that mold. We'll talk a little bit about that later, but like first, tell me a little bit about like, what's a normal day in your role actually look like? And then almost more importantly, is it
Like how is it different than what you imagined a year ago, right? When you're like, I'm gonna start looking for work. I'm already looking for work. Not knowing what like agency land looks like. Noah, you wanna go first?
Noah Burlingame (09:24)
Yeah, I mean, this is no knock on Indiana or Kelley, but if we're being completely honest, I didn't really know what an agency was before I started working here. I don't think I ever just got enough information on that at school. think it was very in-house focused. It was very marketing and technical sense. So all of this is brand new to me, which is awesome. But a typical day for me is just, I feel like every week,
start of the week I get my assignments either in paid search, SEO, paid social, And I think what I love about this role is the autonomy of it. I have full ability to choose when I want to work on projects, when they need to get done. Obviously I have deadlines, but it's really up to me. And part of that's a little stressful. It can be scary to like prioritize things coming to this in a brand new role. I'm not really sure how to prioritize things yet. And that's something I'm still working on, but.
Yeah, I mean, it really just looks like I wake up, I check my emails, I check a couple of our Google campaigns on the paid search side and make sure nothing broke. And then I basically plan out my own day. For example, today is all SEO for me. I'm working on one of our clients right now, their blog categorization. And that's something needs to get done by tomorrow. And that's what I'm doing today. But it's different every day, which is what I love. I think that's the biggest thing. It's never boring. It's never monotonous.
Tom Hootman (10:36)
Awesome.
Noah Burlingame (10:42)
It is something, even if it's not something new, if it's something I've done before, it's at least something different than the day before. And I think that's one of the best parts about working at an agency.
Tom Hootman (10:51)
It's a really great point in that I've had a manager who used to say this about working in an agency that people who seek out agencies want to work on something different every day, or they want a different client mix 10 years from now than what they have today. They prefer that gradual shifts, sometimes radical shifts based on what's coming in.
Workload expands to fill all the space and you have moments where you're overwhelmed and you both will have moments where you're like I have 80 hours of work to do there's no way I can get this done What how am I going to accomplish all this and who do I ask for help? But one thing I've heard and this is not a knock on in-house at all. I've never worked in-house is that People who come to us who want to freelance for example who are in-house Have said before like they they want to work on a different client or a different segment
because they feel like their tools aren't as sharp. There's no variety in their lives. And there's just kind of like, you're beholden to like, you're just selling shoes all day, or you're just selling this product or this service all day, every day, which can be a bit monotonous. Now you're in charge, you might be in charge of it over a few channels, but it's the same thing over and over and over again. And I get that, I'm wired that way too. I like working on different things. I mean, I just...
Enjoy the difference of like jumping out of a call for an e-commerce client straight into a call that's a b2b SaaS client with a total different set of expectations. One client's delighted. Maybe we're trudging through initial onboarding with another. And then the third one is a tiny client or super big prospect. You just don't know. What about you, Madison? Take me through one of your typical days.
Madison Stiles (12:33)
Yeah, so I would definitely have to agree that every day is something completely different.
⁓ I start off every day kind of just mapping out the general look that I think I'm going to have, how much time I'm going to dedicate to one task versus another, which more often than not ends up changing as I start working on it. or as requests come in and different tasks pop up that you just kind of have to re-prioritize. so I would say just a lot of flexibility in what I'm doing every day is super important to
Noah Burlingame (12:44)
you
Madison Stiles (13:07)
me as tasks pop up and some days are super call heavy. I'll feel like I'm on back to back calls for five or six hours than other days I have no calls. And it's all just kind of on me to manage my time and focus on what tasks need to get done that day. So I would definitely say it's a lot different than what I expected out of college. I assumed I would be in an office in a cubicle eight hours a day, probably working on one task at a time that I'd have to wrap up on
neatly with a bow before I start something new. But luckily you kind of work on a bunch of different tasks all at once. So you do something for an hour or two and then you can pivot. So it's never boring for sure.
Tom Hootman (13:50)
It's interesting. So I saw a LinkedIn post yesterday and it took everything. I don't want to part. I don't want to be a dick and start fights with people on the fucking Internet. But like it was another agency founder. Who'd grown from I think it was two years they went from zero to six million in revenue, which is incredible, right? So like who far be it from me to be like. This is kind of shitty, but the theme was a picture of like.
three or four guys, don't get me started on that, right? Three or four like of the same guy, basically, all working around a little table with a bunch of extension cords in an office in a city. And the theme was, because there's people are out there, Madison, the theme was like, we work in the office, and this team puts in the time, and we don't stop work until the work is done. And everyone here has a founders mentality.
and we go to war on your PNL to drive profit. And I'm like in the back of my head, I'm like, what a shitty place to work. Like I get that. Like this industry isn't like a 40 hour a week industry every week, but it shouldn't be 60, 70 hours every single week either. Like there's like that trope of marketers just getting ground up into dust. Like there should be a balance in there somewhere.
And to me it was very much like, you're leading with this? Like this is the thing you're going with? And I scrolled through like hundred comments, because it's click bait number one. But like the vast majority of the comments were like, love it. Love the mentality. And I'm like.
Madison Stiles (15:24)
Yes.
Tom Hootman (15:26)
What the fuck? Like, no way. It was awful. Yeah, and so for me, mean, that's part of how I think we're different and working here is different is like you mentioned flexibility. Like something that I learned early on from the first agency I worked at was that you could start your day anytime between seven and 10 and put in your eight hours. And we're on Eastern time, so you can't start at 10 a.m. Pacific. Sorry, Elliot, right? But like everyone should be online by 10 a.m. Eastern. And then.
Madison Stiles (15:28)
Are we reading the same thing here?
Tom Hootman (15:55)
What that creates is this like no one's looking at the clock because at the end of the day, there are some people that leave at 430. Some people leave at 530 and there were days in the winter where it was dark out and I'm leaving and I'm like, why are you still here? And they're like, I came in at 10. I'm like, ⁓ nevermind. You've only, you've still got two hours to go. There's that flexibility, like just like hire professionals, hold them accountable and just do good work because the cubicle days are kind of over, right? Like they don't exist anymore. You kind of already answered the question, Madison. So I'm not going to ask you this one, but like,
Noah, like what's the biggest surprise about working in a marketing agency versus like expectations?
Noah Burlingame (16:30)
See, that's tough to answer because I've only worked here. You know, I have one of my best buddies. He works in-house at a fast food company. I think the biggest thing for me is the autonomy I'm given. I don't feel like an entry-level employee. I feel like I'm treated like part of the team and I feel like I have responsibilities, which I mean is great. That's what I want from a job. But definitely going into an entry-level role, you don't think all of a sudden you're going to be handling certain aspects of client accounts.
It's just been really nice not to have my hand held through these first couple months and sort of just be given the opportunity to go out on my own with guidelines of course.
Tom Hootman (17:06)
Yeah. And I think that changes too. it's, ⁓ early days, everyone's all hands on deck. but as agencies grow, you almost are afforded the luxury then of, being able to bring entry level people along at a more considerate and methodical pace.
So great answers. Coming out of school, and this could be even like at the agency, but even more so like as you were approaching graduation, like are there any mistakes you made early on or assumptions you made that if you were in one of those Kelley classes today,
that you would tell them to avoid, or as a watch out.
Flip a coin. Madison.
Madison Stiles (17:49)
well, I used to always roll my eyes at anyone that would tell me that college would go by in the blink of an eye.
I would never believe it. And I'm sure anyone that I would ever tell that to will probably roll their eyes just the same, but it seriously is the truth. And I felt like I had all the time in the world. I had no rush to start applying for internships or even think about full-time roles, honestly, until late into my junior year was the first time I really sat down and thought about it. By that time it was way too late to get a summer internship. I felt like I was behind.
in the game for looking at full-time roles. had friends that had full-time roles lined up their sophomore years. So it's not something you need to stress yourself and be thinking every second of the day, the minute you step on campus. But I do think it's important to be prepared early on and just kind of know what you're looking for and how you're setting yourself up for that. And I wish I would have done that.
Tom Hootman (18:32)
Cheers.
Madison Stiles (18:51)
a little sooner so that my senior year I wasn't so focused on what is next for me and how I feel like I'm not ready for it.
Tom Hootman (19:00)
Do you feel like you approached it less as a transition, like a transition from student to professional and more so as a, a student until I'm done and then I'm a professional?
Madison Stiles (19:11)
Yeah, I think for sure. was like, okay, well, I need to get through all of my classes and I need to be almost done with my major before I know that this is where I'm going to want a career in. So I felt like I was pushing it off to the last minute because I was like, what if I switch something? What if I'm, you know, switch majors or decide this isn't for me? But that just led me to not being prepared for any field really until the end there. So I would definitely just prepare earlier on.
Tom Hootman (19:39)
It's interesting because that's something that's, it's kind of flawed in the education system. Like not, not just at university level, but even in high school, right? Like I think about high school, like where, what I wanted to do. And then you know, they make you go see the guidance counselor. And when I brought it up, I still remember this guidance counselor being like, ⁓ you sweet summer child, that ship is sailed. Like you are a year behind. I guess it's not going to happen. So like figure something else out and being like, ⁓
fuck my life is over right like it's not but it's like the panic kind of sets in of you're like I screwed up the timeline. Noah what about you? what would you tell those souls sitting at Kelley right now
Noah Burlingame (20:20)
Yeah.
I mean, I think, I think Madison touched on it very well. Get started before you think you need to get started. I was in, I think we had a very similar college experience, Madison, but similar boat. did not get started on my internship looking like my junior year until it was a little too late. And I got an internship and it was fine, but it was absolutely not what I wanted to do. And it, it was still helpful and I learned some things from it, but yeah, I mean, there's going to be a career fair like September of your junior year, go to it. But at the same time,
Don't compare yourself to other people. There's going to be that kid in your class that has his Deloitte internship, you know, sophomore year. He's got a full-time job lined up for when he graduates. Who cares, man? That guy's going to go do his thing and he's going to have fun. It's whatever. But you can't compare yourself to people like that or anybody. Just do what's good for you.
Tom Hootman (21:09)
So when should people start looking, students? Like is it sophomore year? Is there a point that's too early?
Noah Burlingame (21:15)
think that's a, I mean, I, what did I do in my sophomore, it's summer before junior year. I did something kind of dumb, but it wasn't like any relevant to my major. I think junior year is the important year. think junior year, you get into college and you get started as soon as possible. You've taken two years of classes. You know what you like, you know what you don't like. I think, I think that junior year internship is the most important to figuring out what you want to do in your life. And yeah, I think just the best advice I can give is just get started as early as possible.
Then you don't have it hanging over your head in March of junior year like, shit, what am I going to do this summer? Like, that's not fun. That's going to ruin your college experience. Don't do that. I mean, yeah, sophomore year, why not? If you know what you want to do and you have a vision sophomore year, get yourself that internship.
Madison Stiles (22:01)
I think the career fairs are also like, that's something I wished I would have done freshman, sophomore year, because it's not like you lose anything from going to those. anything, you just make connections. You learn a little bit more about what you're looking for and what you're not looking for. But I would say, yeah, the serious search maybe doesn't need to start until early junior year, but it always helps before then to just keep things in mind.
Tom Hootman (22:01)
So, go ahead, Madison.
Noah Burlingame (22:04)
Yes.
Tom Hootman (22:30)
mean, they're networking events, right? Like, and the thing about networking events is like, we used to do like role playing in front of a group of 200 sales reps when I was an outside sales rep, or they would bring one person up and they would role play a sales conversation. And I had a great trainer who said, what you have to realize about when you're upfront role playing is like you're uncomfortable, but the people watching you are actually probably more uncomfortable for you, like secondary empathy kicks in.
And I think that what people don't realize is that like, I'm going to go, say this, like if you go out to a net, your first networking event and you're like handshaking, talking to people, you're a weirdo. Like everyone, their first few career fair networking events is kind of a wallflower. And you're like, this is weird. How do I strike up a conversation? But I think getting them under your belt early helps you get the lay of the land a bit on like, okay, this is how this thing runs. I'm just going to go sit next to someone and say hi.
and see what happens. But if you go to your first career fair, junior, senior year, you're kind of you're already behind a bit, right? Like you've got to you've got to get comfortable getting uncomfortable a bit. How many internships should people get like I don't even I have no frame of reference. Like, do most people that you know, like did you have multiple internships, you want one big one? Because like you said, Noah, go for it as a sophomore, like
Noah Burlingame (23:32)
Yep.
Tom Hootman (23:49)
You get a shitty internship as a sophomore and get a better one as a junior right like is there. Any like what would you recommend?
Noah Burlingame (23:56)
feel like you're asking the wrong guy in myself personally because I had no internships until the summer before my senior year and I worked for, I think we talked about this, I worked for Big Tobacco, which wasn't an area I knew I wanted to pursue career-wise, but they paid well, which was nice. I don't know what they, I mean, I think they, Madison, we took, what was it, Kelley Compass, where they're always pushing that career-focused stuff.
I they tell you like sophomore year you should get an internship. So I'd say internship summer before junior year, internship summer before senior year. Preferably two different things if you don't know what you want to do. If you do know what you want to do it's completely different. I had no idea what I wanted to do. So for me it was weird but I also think it's just different for everyone. I think it's so hard to put a hard and fast rule on it. I mean I have friends that
didn't have an internship throughout college and they have kick-ass jobs right now and I have friends that had internships before their sophomore year. They have three internships in college and they're also doing well. So I think it's just, you gotta know what's right for you, which is a cliche and dumb answer, but I think it's the truth.
Tom Hootman (25:04)
It's, there's also the, there's also the thinking too, that if you have an internship, that is a, that is an avenue to getting a job at that company. Cause you know, my first agency I was at, like we have people that work here with us now that were interns at that agency and they're leaders now in the org. And I think that if you have a great internship or you have an internship that you do really well and get acclimated to, and they like you, like there's a great path for you to like reduce all that friction of trying to find a job.
because they're gonna be like, they're gonna be waiting to hire, like, can we hire you yet? When do you graduate? Which I think is like a good leg up on people who graduate and then have to go out and find something.
Noah Burlingame (25:44)
Absolutely, I mean one of my one of my best friends had an internship his summer before senior year. He got his full-time offer. So senior year he was coasting. He didn't have to worry about a job. He didn't have to worry about that job hunt. So yeah again I think that junior year internship is the most important and I think just taking those first two years of college and just really figuring out what you want to do is the biggest thing. So once you have that down it's you get your internship, you work hard, you get your full-time and it's easy from there.
Tom Hootman (26:12)
have an opinion on this next question, so I won't share it first. coming out of school, similar to internships, what kind of level of importance was put on this, or do you put on personal projects, side hustles, extracurriculars, or like your GPA? Like I call it the bottom half of the resume, because when you don't have experience, the way to make the resume fill out is to build from the bottom up, which is extracurriculars, volunteering, and.
Madison Stiles (26:15)
you
Tom Hootman (26:42)
internships, anything you can to help fill out that bottom half of the page. Do you think that's important? Or is that something that's told to you that is like, and maybe in the old days?
Madison.
Madison Stiles (26:56)
I think
it's always been so hard for me because even in high school, like GPA and my grades were so important to me. And I feel like
The longer I go on, the more I realize GPAs are kind of just like a little pat on the back, something to, if you have a good one, it makes you feel good about yourself. But at the end of the day, as long as you have a decent GPA, you're in good standing. I think way more important is that experience aspect. And not, it doesn't necessarily need to be the experience that you think.
employers are looking for. So it doesn't need to be some amazing internship where you worked in marketing the entire time and you can directly translate that. I mean, even Tom talking to you, I know we talked about my experience working in restaurants and how that kind of helps me deal with customer service and learn how to problem solve. any type of experience that you're able to translate into your work life, even if it's not directly work related, I think are really important.
and more important than just the number that your GPA represents.
Tom Hootman (28:03)
Yeah, it's the least hot take of hot takes now because everyone says it but like restaurant experience all day long. Get in the weeds, be way behind, help run food, have an hour long cook time, be on a three hour wait, be absolutely wiped out and then go out at 1am and get absolutely hammered with your co workers. Like there's something to be said for that routine, right? Sleep till two, get up, do it all over again. Noah, what do you think about extracurriculars, GPA, things like that?
Madison Stiles (28:09)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Noah Burlingame (28:31)
I mean, same thing. Nobody cares you have a high GPA. Nobody cares that you went to Kelley Business School, whatever, because so did 10,000 other kids in your graduating class. Do something interesting. Do something that people are going to notice. know talking to you, had things on my resume that had nothing to with my major, had nothing to do with business that you found interesting, we were able to talk about. just, it doesn't have to be a club, like an academic club. Just do something fun. Do something you enjoy and something you can talk about. Because I think that's...
It's the biggest thing is standing out because everyone has good grades. Everyone is in a couple clubs. Everyone goes to a good business school, it feels like. But you got to be unique and you got to do something that they can tell you have passions outside of just my tests and whatnot.
Tom Hootman (29:15)
I think that you tapped into something, both of you there in that I do think having Kelley, like, like someone who went to Kelley who's hiring is gonna look at that and be like, awesome. Also there's nostalgia after so many years where like you're gonna go into an interview and someone's just gonna wanna talk about your Kelley experience. And were you on Kirkwood for the national title game? And like, what was it like? And my God, Nick's
Noah Burlingame (29:27)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (29:39)
And all that stuff that's like helping build rapport that claws you a little further ahead than other people. when you're coming out of school and we're sitting down to a coffee or in one of these conversations. I didn't go to Kelley. I don't have that. Right. So like, what's it like walking to class every day? Cause I didn't do that. But I'm, I'm going to be more like you worked in a restaurant. What was it like full service casual? Was it like?
Busy, not busy, was the owner crazy? Like those are the things I go to like to find some type of relatable information. And then the other thing I've just mentioned this to someone else the other day.
Noah when when I spoke to the class and you and I talked there were like three or four other students who sent me their resumes and asked for input. And I tell them all the same thing like I unless your GPA is amazing, like Dean's List top of the class, no one gives a shit. Like I've never looked at it unless it's low. Then I'm kind like, why would you put that on here? Right? Like
Noah Burlingame (30:33)
Yeah, I feel like
there's too much like your GPA doesn't matter right now, but it still kind of matters. You still got to go to class and get good grades.
Tom Hootman (30:38)
It's kind of, you still got to go to class and
Madison Stiles (30:38)
Really?
Tom Hootman (30:41)
And it's like, think everyone has good grades. I've seen resumes with low GPAs on them and I'm like, whoo, school wasn't for you. But also like, if I'm getting down to the point where I'm looking at like, I've never seen GPA be like a tiebreaker. Like two great entry level candidates. This one's a little bit higher. Let's go with it. It just doesn't come down to that. That's more like vibe check. And I think that
It's one of those things that you keep it on there because it takes up space and it takes up a line when you're building the bottom up. But as soon as you can, you streamline, that's the first section that gets crunched when you have more experience and you're like, shit, yeah, degree, one line at the bottom. Like I gotta find room to put more accomplishments from actual work experience. So it's like a balancing act. What was one belief in school about success or performance?
that you thought was true, that now that you're out, you're kind of like, that was a little bit of bullshit.
Madison, want to go first?
Madison Stiles (31:38)
Hmm. So I would say going off of kind of the GPA conversation, I thought I needed to get straight A's to be successful. And I assumed that everyone around me that was in Kelley was getting straight A's and that's how they were successful. And just the longer I went on, had...
Tom Hootman (31:40)
You can pass.
Madison Stiles (32:02)
friends that were straight-A students, some of the smartest people I've ever met that weren't landing internships and jobs right away. And then I had friends that were barely passing their classes and they had their job lined up years before they were gonna start. So I think obviously you need to...
try as hard as you can in your classes and you want to give a good performance that you're proud of, but at the same time everyone's on their own timeline and their own path. So you shouldn't compare your grades to someone else's and use that to define success for you because there's a lot more that comes into it. You can get an A in a class but that's not going to give you the skills to do what we do every day necessarily.
Tom Hootman (32:47)
Yeah, I appreciate that. There's also like an element of like, you can feel like time's a wasting and you can feel like you've screwed something up. And I think about my path in a non-traditional way and the jobs I held and like, I remember thinking when I was in my 20s, like, how do I put my experience in the, in these two or three jobs on a resume? And when I realized now those jobs are like six jobs buried.
Like no one's two of those companies are out of business. I could tell them I was the CEO. No one's going to know. Right. There's no one to like reference check at the music land group or Chi Chi's Mexican restaurant nowadays. Right. So there's an element of like don't sweat it like time heals all wounds a bit. So make some mistakes. Bump into some fucking walls. Noah what about you? Belief you had earlier that you're now starting to think might be bullshit.
Noah Burlingame (33:38)
See, I'm sort of the opposite where I feel like, especially at Kelley, shout out Kelley or whatever, I think they did do a great job preparing us for the real world. And I think the biggest thing was the minute you get there, all they do is harp on networking and all throughout college. was like, this is stupid. Like I have good grades. I have extracurriculars. I don't need to go out every weekend and meet people. It is important. is as much as there you're going to hear it as much as you're going to get sick of the word networking.
It is absolutely, think, I mean, that's only reason I have this job is networking. It's 100 % the most important thing. So no matter how many times you hear it and how many times you get sick of it, I think just realizing that there's a reason they keep telling you networking is important. And I think that that's the biggest thing for me. My biggest takeaway is underestimating the importance of that and thinking, well, you know what? I'm smart. I have good grades. That should be enough. It's not, it's about who you know. And that may be a little frustrating to hear for some people, but
end of the day, that's the reality of it.
Tom Hootman (34:39)
Yeah. And you're in control of who you know more than you I think, think you are. Right. I think people feel like, there's always going to be people who were born on third base and pretended they think they hit a triple, but you can also hit a triple or a double and then steal third. And it's something interesting just dawned on me when you say that the ad nauseam networking, networking, networking, it's more, maybe a thing about positioning because
They don't teach you about how an agency works, but I think Kelley's an amazing school. What they're doing is they're saying, go out and network and you'll learn how an agency works or you'll learn the tricks of the trade because by the time we're going to teach you, it's, might already be dated a bit. So like go out and just start those conversations. And I do think there was a lot of people who think of it like a vending machine. Like I put a conversation in, I get a token out. One thing I've told everybody like
from my seat, jumping out from a large, successful, global performance media agency where I was really insulated every day just working on my work. Very rarely was I engaging with people in my network. To now, it's like the whole job is just talking to people all day. I make friends for a living. So I could have eight conversations in a day that honestly could turn into something in the future, but I'm not trying to make them turn into something now.
That's the key. Like you have to, be detached and have like good intent. because you don't shout out Blind Zebra, my sales trainers and peer group, right? the sense abundance, detachment and intent is huge, right? You have to have a sense of abundance. There's always something else. you have to be, have a healthy level of detachment because people are like dogs. They could smell fear on you and your intent has to be good. So like if you're intent, I was raised Catholic, but I'll even
but I'm firm believer in karma. Like just do good shit and good shit will come back to you. last question for you both.
And don't, don't blow smoke up my ass. ⁓ what energizes you about the work now that you're full time members of the workforce? What like fills the cup so far as they say.
Madison Stiles (36:35)
Yes.
Tom Hootman (36:49)
Noah, you first this time. I called on Madison first a few times. We'll go back to Noah.
Madison Stiles (36:50)
No.
Noah Burlingame (36:54)
I think
seeing a real world impact, think this is the first job or position I've ever held where what I'm doing matters. I'm putting in work that I can see actual tangible results It's pretty cool to work on a project or something and then a week later a client implements it and some of their metrics on their website go up. So I think that's the biggest thing is just knowing what I'm doing matters is pretty awesome.
Tom Hootman (37:19)
That's awesome. I mean, there's it's weird from my seat as well. Like we're doing this work and it's weird to like you're like this is making an impact and like to hear clients talk about Noah and talk about Madison and like the great work they're doing and name dropping you like because I'm detached a bit from your day to day. Right. And so I get this is a bad analogy. But like with like when you see like your nieces or nephews or different family members and like your grandparents, my gosh, you've grown so much. Right.
Noah Burlingame (37:28)
So weird.
Tom Hootman (37:44)
I go like we'll go a month without being on more than a couple calls. We're in the same room. And then all of a sudden you're here. I'm going to client one-on-one leadership call. And they're talking about the work you're doing and they're name dropping you. And it's like, it's awesome. Cause the contribution, like the clients are even kind of touting it back to me. Like, Hey, you know, you've got a couple of really great ones here, which is I think awesome. It's right up there with like clients are paying us to do this. Like we're a real business now. Like this still doesn't get old. Like checking the PO box yesterday and like cashing it check at the bank and depositing it. And it's like,
This is so crazy, right? Like this is a real thing, which I think is awesome. Madison, what do get most fired up about? What energizes you?
Madison Stiles (38:20)
So I totally agree with Noah there. I think it is super exciting to actually produce real results. And it's not just these hypothetical training projects that, one day you're going to have to do this for an account. So we'll do it all on the back end now, but not implement it everywhere. So now that we can actually see.
those results in real time is really cool. But about this role specifically, I think I get really excited about the amount of freedom that we have. I never imagined myself being someone that worked remotely or.
like working from home ever really. was like, maybe I'll be in a job that works from home two days a week, one day a week. But I couldn't imagine that I would be full-time remote and that I would love it as much as I do. I love getting to plan my days around what works for me and really have to spend that extra time on.
prioritizing certain tasks and getting to work from wherever is obviously awesome. Getting to take your work with you if you need to, I think just opens you up to a lot of new experiences. So I'm really excited that that's what I get to do.
Tom Hootman (39:29)
That's wonderful two things there. I think all we took was one global pandemic to really grease the wheels on that. And at the same time, it's interesting to me, because I'm thinking about the direction for the agency to watch like agencies try to put that back in its box a bit and people are moving more hybrid. And then what do you do about moving to hybrid when you have people that live all over the United States now because you've been hiring remote. But then secondarily for me, like I want to have an office someday.
Madison Stiles (39:35)
Mm.
Tom Hootman (39:56)
Now I know that the team's going to still be mostly remote, but then how do you balance? This is the remote team, the role we're hiring for, for this person, you, you're in the office, right? Like there'll be a hybrid mentality to it, but, it leads to smaller offices, which is great because the last thing you want is an office with like 55 cubes or open desks. But at the same time, I'm someone who enjoyed working in an office and
This the other thing I'll say is it's funny you get to take your work with you very quickly. Madison will turn into I have to take my work with me. That's like the one thing that's changed so much with the advent of like Slack, right? Was like, Hey, everyone hates email and text. Let's put all our email and a text in Slack. So we still get it through one platform. It's like, it can eat a hole through you, right? Particularly when you have a remote team, because I joke I've joked before I was like, I never want to hire like, why to hire someone in the Pacific time zone.
It's a joke, Elliot, but seriously, like people start later, people work later, some people have different hours. You have to get comfortable knowing that there are times someone needs me, but it's 6 p.m. my time and I might be done, but I'm not done. And I would always say this, like it is great advice. I had a coworker who literally, she couldn't turn it off. She couldn't turn her brain off. She couldn't resist checking email. She actually had the agency change her password and lock her out of her email for a week when she went on vacation.
I think it's very healthy to take one or two of those vacations as often as you can, where you truly delete that shit from your phone and like, don't check it because it really never ever stops. And it'll only you're like, it feels good. I have some flexibility. But then what will happen is that flexibility kind of turns on itself. And then it becomes lack of flexibility because it's so flexible, which can be tough.
Noah Burlingame (41:48)
I think the thing that's nice about here is that I know I can take a week off because I know that Elliot and Taylor and Madison can cover for me. But at the same time, I know if they take a week off, I'll cover for them. And I think that just speaks to the culture you have here. And I think that's the only downside about remote work. I want to hang out like my coworkers more. That's the one thing I hate is that we can't go out for like happy hours or something .
Tom Hootman (42:02)
Thank you.
Madison Stiles (42:10)
No after work drinks? Come on!
Tom Hootman (42:11)
I miss the
Brothers in Bloomington made a lot of money off of the Hanapin crew. And there were many days we got there at 445 and then we were like, hey everyone, it's like 930, we should probably go home. Like this is crazy. I do miss that time. And part of the reason why I want to have an office is because something that my first agency did, which was great, was that
we toyed around with different options, but for a while it was like every month we would bring two remote people in for Tuesday to Friday And then once a year, everyone came to Bloomington and it was like everyone came to the mothership. We spent the week working together. We did breakouts. It was like a celebration. It wasn't just all work.
And it was just like a fun event that allowed you to catch up with coworkers that you aren't in the same room with ever. we're heading in that direction. That's a benefit of growth at a certain point is being able to have a space where we can all work together for a few days and be able to bring everyone into one spot for a few days. And then also be able to tell the clients, hey,
We're all coming together. This week's gonna be a bit hectic, but we're all gonna be in the same room. This is important to us. And I always say, if a client's weird about that, maybe they've got their own issues they're working out. So thank you both for making time. Thank you both for your patience. I know you both started as part-time, worked to full-time. I think that's like another theme. We didn't touch into it that much, but I think part of it too is like, if you're out there looking for work, don't try to eat the elephant in one bite.
Find something that keeps you moving. Find something that keeps you moving forward and use that to help build momentum because the momentum doesn't have to come 40 hours a week. It can come 10 hours a week doing something ancillary or supporting someone in a consulting role and then grow into a full-time role or you find a full-time role and then you make a decision on what you want to do and what you want to keep. So I appreciate the wisdom from both of you. I appreciate all your hard work. Thanks for making time.
Now get back to work. Thanks, folks.