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The growth hack no one talks about: Quarterly business reviews.
Want to know why building a habit around business reviews will help you grow? Then this is an episode to listen to.
We cover why they make you better, and how to run the first successful QBRs.
Creators & Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Mikkel Plaehn, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:47] Mikkel: so, you and I have worked in. A couple of B2B SaaS companies by now, all of them fast growing, high aspirations, some successful, And Mindware, say same. We weren't the same company. the point is really, as a company goes from even where we are now, you know, 25 people to 50, to a hundred, to 200, there's so many things you need to get done.
[00:01:16] Mm. Sometimes it will prevent you from doing some of the things, you know, you need to do such as a QBR, a quarterly business review, and we're not just gonna talk about the QBR you would do with a customer to a CSM and a customer. We're actually gonna talk about reviewing how you as a business perform and what you can do to change. That's, that's really the focus. So. Question we really need to deal with is if everyone is busy, have a lot of things they need to accomplish. Why should they even bother taking out time to do a QBR?
[00:02:00] Toni: I think the, the answer here is in many cases, yes, you will have your dashboards.
[00:02:05] You maybe have a BI tool. Maybe you as a person could be you as a rev op person, or you as a VP sales or something like that. You look at those occasionally, but really the value is not from, seeing that stuff. The value comes from discussing it. Yeah. And. QBR, if you really boil it down to its essence, what it is, it's, it's creating space an hour, sometimes two hours of you with your team, reviewing those numbers, figuring out what they mean, trying to learn something from it and trying to get better afterwards.
[00:02:44] Yeah. And, and really, I think it's also good to be clearly differentiating that from this QBR that you do with your customer, which is really. Sure it's value ad, but it's kind of a sales session. Also really the internal QBR is really about, learning, getting better. Yes. There's a scorecard aspect to it as well, which I, as a COO or CEO really liked by the way.
[00:03:05] But there's really also the other piece, which is about, you know, what happened. Let's build consensus about what happened. Let's have clarity on that and let's try and figure out how we're gonna improve or not make some of the same mistakes
[00:03:18] Mikkel: Yeah. I mean, you called it your favorite growth hack one of the other days.
[00:03:22] Yes. And it's kind of not the go-to growth hacks. You usually see. No. So why is it your favorite growth?
[00:03:30] Toni: Hang it's. It's creating a cadence. It's creating a structure, or a habit if you will, that, basically pushes you to get a little bit better all the time. Mm. So we internally call it continuous improvement.
[00:03:45] Yeah. That's really the, the, the big topic here. And there's this, this obvious like, Hey, if you get 1% better every day, You grow by, I dunno, 306 30, a lot.
[00:03:57] Mikkel: a lot.
[00:03:58] Toni: Okay. So I think you, I think you're 36 X or something over the year. Yeah. Right. And, and obviously, Hey, you're not gonna do this every day, but, um, what you do need to, uh, what you do need to do though, is you need to, you need to figure out how to improve.
[00:04:12] And in order to do that, you need to, uh, look at those numbers. And it's not only the number part, it's also the anecdotes that are rounded by the way. It's, it's not only. It's not only numbers. Mm. And then I think that's really important also not to forget in a QBR. and many times you won't find the whole story in the numbers.
[00:04:28] Yeah. Uh, and, and you need, you need the person, you need the person that was, a frontline sales manager. To speak up and say, Hey it's because that rep, uh, was on paternity for three months.
[00:04:38] Mikkel: Right? Because also you can't measure everything. Yeah. And then by default, then it won't be in a QBR. So that, that story side I agree is, is super
[00:04:45] Toni: key.
[00:04:46] And once they have that habit going, once they have that cadence going and you can have it monthly kind of a quarterly, some people even do it, you know, shorter term. And you create a, what is good? What is bad? What do we wanna improve next? And by the way, Never ever try and do more things than one max.
[00:05:05] Right. You kind of come out of your first QBR can guarantee that to you and you have 20 next action points. Yeah. It, one, just one and, and, and maybe you have a chance to achieve that one. And those continuous improvements, then coming out of that, this is actually what kind of gets you better and better every day.
[00:05:22] Yeah. And also, especially thinking about SAS. All of those improvements, they compound like. Yeah. And, um, and once you start about, you know, talking about compounding, it's kind of, you know, compounding interest, well, when should you start with it kind of, as soon as you can, you know, as early as possible, and then, you know, create that cadence, create that habit, also create that transparency across your commercial leadership.
[00:05:47] there might be looking forward or not to one of those sessions, depending on maybe gonna talk about this depending on how you're structured. but the clarity and transparency coming out of. and then really, the understanding of how to improve and why to improve. I think if you do this consistently, if you do this, let's just say not every month, but every quarter, I think you will, grow a lot more than, Hey, I saw this new SEO hack on LinkedIn and I'm gonna implement that tomorrow.
[00:06:13] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:14] Mikkel: And I think it's that continuous improvement. it's really the kicker, because that's what built compounding interest. The first time I myself really started doing it was we rolled out some of the scrum principles mm-hmm in marketing. And with that came not just a review of the last two weeks, but also a baked in review of the projects we delivered looking at both, how can we improve the execution, like how we've worked together and our speed, our quality, whatever it is.
[00:06:45] Then, obviously the performance and then what can we do to improve that performance? And that's where it gets incredibly powerful to have that conversation as a team with the right people. So I think I've been in quite a few QBR. Some were good, some were bad. I think some of the ones that popped to mind, it was very much, a monologue first time seeing some numbers, either in a sheet or on a slide and.
[00:07:12] Then really feeling like there was not a discussion of what should we do next? How should we approach it? How should we solve it? So I think if we precision QPRs as a really great growth act, because it is, it will help you compound learnings and improvements. What does a successful QBR then looked like?
[00:07:32] Toni: Yeah, I think number one, no surpris. No one should walk into this meeting and, um, and be totally taken aback by the numbers that they're seeing, that they're supposedly are responsible off and, or for right. If a sales leader sees something, you know, new in marketing, that's totally fine. That's, that's the idea of this QBR.
[00:07:53] There's the transparency, right? You don't expect her to sit in all the marketing dashboards all the time. But if you, um, if you walk into it and you show the marketing leader, an MQL number that is completely. That shouldn't, that shouldn't be the case. Yeah. And there are a couple of ways to try and prevent that.
[00:08:08] And that's actually some of the interesting bits on how companies are maneuvering this. Really it's sometimes actually asking the VP marketing VP sales to own and run the QIA. That then usually requires lots of data work from revenue operations in order to enable that and yada yada um, I think the, the alternative is to have, revenue operations create a little bit more of a stronger frame around it, but basically incorporation with, uh, VP sales, VP marketing, because the thing that you don't wanna have happen is that.
[00:08:44] Every commercial, leader's telling their own story and suddenly the story doesn't add up across the funnel. Everyone is obviously gonna emphasize what, what was great. Yeah. Uh, instead of, you know, the let's just call them the improvement areas. Yeah. You know?
[00:08:57] Mikkel: Yeah. Everyone wants to put out good foot forward.
[00:09:00] Right. Mm-hmm and I think the other thing it helps solve is this classic issue of, if you see a number for the first time and you say, Hey, you only delivered X MQL. and then the marketing leader will sit there and she'll go, that's not the number I have. Mm-hmm and then it kills the whole meeting because it becomes about the numbers.
[00:09:21] Are they accurate? Can we trust them? And that's, that's beyond the purpose of that meeting
[00:09:25] Toni: and oh, you can, you can shut down the meeting at that moment.
[00:09:28] Mikkel: Yeah. That then is done then is over. Yes. And that's where I really, so the, the, let's say the Greg QBR, I myself have been in, there's always been a conversation in advance where.
[00:09:39] Someone in revenue, operations have found something interesting and we'd sit down and discuss, Hey, what happened here? What, what else should we look into to really understand what's happening in the business?
[00:09:52] Toni: And I think that's really item number two. I think you need to have a recurring theme happening in QBRs and MB.
[00:10:01] You know, every recurring meeting needs to have a recurring agenda. That's kind of one of my principles and, um, uh, what you wanna have on top though is deep dive topics, scenarios. Yeah. And you just mentioned one of those deep dive things, right. It's uh, you know, something's going off here. Why is it going off?
[00:10:17] And maybe someone says, good question. I, I don't know. Yeah. Can you do some digging? I have an idea. It could be this, that, or the other thing, and then you bring it up and you have a, a way to discuss it. But also FYI. You give that person that is responsible for the number, you know, a little bit of time to, think about a story that could be told around the numbers and how it, you know, works together.
[00:10:37] Right. And I think that's, that's really crucial. So really having a recurring theme, a recurring agenda plus deep dive that might be different, from time to time. Right. I think number, number three here. Don't keep it at a, Hey, we are only looking back. We're only reporting on numbers level so we can hold you accountable.
[00:10:59] I think the accountability piece is really important. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And, and really most people don't like it, but it is really important. I think the, the, especially if you are as a revenue operations person, running those sessions, I think what you need to keep in mind is, most of those leaders know.
[00:11:20] they didn't hit a number that they, that they were told to hit. So, coming back to that topic all the time and being like why, and this and that it's, I think this is number one, not helpful in many cases. Uh, but number two, it's also. Probably not helpful for your relationship to that commercial leader.
[00:11:41] Right. It's you're gonna walk out of this meeting and, and the other, person's gonna think what an annoying shit. Yeah. All right. And, uh, so you wanna, you wanna avoid that because you don't wanna be that person, you wanna be the partner to the commercial leader And, what should you do instead?
[00:11:54] Well, what you should do in status, actually looking forward, you know, how can you help the VP sales hit the number next? How can you help the, uh, VP marketing to, hit, her whatever number next quarter or for the year or whatever.
[00:12:09] Mikkel: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things we've heard from, you know, not just our customers, but people working revenue operations is sometimes it's hard to position yourself as that strategic business partner.
[00:12:23] And if you're not perceived as that, you have a problem, but you know, Back to what you said, the cadence and the structure around the meeting, actually sitting down in advanced discussing some of the things that you see and preparing and actively wanting to help. Because as you know, if you're a sales leader and you missed target, guess what, you know, before that meeting.
[00:12:43] And you're not very happy about it.
[00:12:46] Toni: Yeah. And you know what, it's not gonna help. VP sales that you come well, you didn't hit because your conversion rate went down. it's like, okay, thanks spreadsheets. Bye. I was, I was spreadsheets in that story, but, but, uh, uh, you know, and doing it the other way around and then, you know, flipping in it saying like, Hey, if you keep that conversion rate, we will need to produce so many more opportunities.
[00:13:10] Mm-hmm and that will put so much more pressure on market. and Hey Martin, can we do this? Yes, maybe no. You know, let's have a conversation about this. Really, this then becomes a let's solve the problem across the funnel conversation. Mm-hmm, looking forward. Um, and there will be some pressure then on the VP sales, like, okay, I think I need to, not it back up a couple of points and that conversion rate, but also, uh, marketing will look into trying to create more opportunities or whatever the solution is gonna be.
[00:13:39] But, but that's really the that's really the forward looking approach that. I feel creates way less of a blaming and shaming. Piece which yes, sometimes is necessary and sometimes it's helpful. But instead creates much more of a collaborative, how do we solve this problem approach, which is something that you really wanna as a revenue operations leader really wanna enable in the commercial engine.
[00:14:04] And and that's why this is such a great tool, for example, to try and achieve that. Yeah.
[00:14:09] Mikkel: And I think that's also, back to the structure. If the revenue leaders have been involved ahead of the actual sit down, if I'm a marketing leader. And I know we have a challenge with our conversion rate in sales, my thoughts will revolve around what can I do to help impact that?
[00:14:28] Did we make any changes that cost this or are there anything we can do to mitigate it or somehow increase the volume to assist? And that's, if you can get to that level, I find then this meeting. it's really powerful because then the team starts actually working together versus, you know, sitting in the corner saying, well, okay, his or her conversion rates went down, not my problem, but, but it really is.
[00:14:51] If you're responsible for revenue, you have an interest in growing that, no matter what department you sit
[00:14:58] Toni: in. Yes. And I also think. There's an opportunity and there's a space for understanding. And, I feel as a, as a CRO, as a revenue leader was super important to me that that was not only me understanding all the different pieces, but that the team around me understood each other as well.
[00:15:15] Yeah. And for example, the typical sales versus sales and marketing, conundrum, the, the thing that came out of one QBR. Um, was like, Hey, we had all of those MQs and we kind of hit target, but those MPLS, apparently didn't convert to opportunities as they used to. Right. And so typical, typical conversation.
[00:15:38] So why is that? Well, We did this campaign on Facebook and that's not leading to the right kind of leads. So why are we doing this? Well, because we need to hit this MKL target. And Facebook is a great way to do it. Could we do it differently maybe as, but, you know, and conversation ensued.
[00:15:55] And then also the sales leaders understood, oh, wait a minute. You can't just, you know, why, why don't you put more money into Google? So, yeah, honestly, typical question. And then there was a, because. Those five reasons and we are already maxing out and already shit. Yeah. Uh, so we can't do this anymore. And then there was realization for those, uh, sales leaders, which usually.
[00:16:16] well, just, you know, more ads, ads, more ads, budget, that's it. That's what you need. And then there was a realization, oh, wait a minute. It's not that simple, actually. It's, it's more complicated than that. Uh, yeah. Yes it is Mr. Sales leader. And uh, uh, and this is some of the reason why this MPL thing is kind of not going in the right direction and having that realization also leads to simply less, friction for sure, but less,
[00:16:41] antagonism, I think is the right word between those two roles, because suddenly you have a bit more of an understanding and respect for the problems that the other side deals with. I think
[00:16:51] Mikkel: this has been one of the best ways to make sure that marketing and sales actually aligned, cuz they, they will understand each other a whole lot better just because of what you said, you're able to put words to why is it not just a matter of, pouring more money into ads?
[00:17:06] Why, why does it take longer for marketing to scale? Their opportunity production or why can't sales just, use those MTLS we created because we just needed to hit target mm-hmm it changes the conversation around, well, if that money we spend to generate those MTLS are not materializing into opportunities.
[00:17:27] We should do something different. Yep. I wanna circle back to a thing you said about the QBR, because I've seen. In QBR, there is a lot of things you discover and learn. And by doing that, there's a lot of things you then want to go and do. Why is it so important that it's just one thing that needs to be the focus mm-hmm
[00:17:51] Toni: So let's not forget that the QBR is not the only source of ideas that you will have across the business. You have probably your, okay. Ask you, have your strategy. You have your sprints, you have all kinds of places where there are new ideas coming out. QBRs should ideally inform some of those ideas and decision making and, and, and so forth.
[00:18:17] But the key point about continuous improvements is that the changes that you make, that they stick, if you improve 1% a day, uh, but that improvement falls away. The next. You can improve 1% every day for the year and you will have improved 1% at the end of the year. Mm. And this is something that I've struggled with the most, honestly, how do you, how do you keep those continuous improvements to stick and, long philosophical process later focus on one thing instead, right?
[00:18:51] That, that is, that is usually the way that, you know, number one to make sure it gets. which is, which is a big achievement, you know, coming to the next QBR and being able to say, Hey, there's one thing that we debated over half an hour to kind of decide we actually finished it. Mm. Uh, you will not have that, good feeling of having achieved something.
[00:19:12] If you have even chosen two or three things, by the way, I can promise you that. And then number two, the, uh, the chances and the likelihood of that change to. To stay and to be around fast and now to be the new, normal much, much higher, if it's one, one specific thing. Yeah. So that's why focusing on, on one instead of multiple is, it totally is, is a tactic, so don't get me wrong.
[00:19:38] Uh, but it's, it's kind of a best practice that, we started implementing and we also, uh, if, if someone asks us, we obviously kind of sharing that immediately.
[00:19:46] Mikkel: Yeah. From a marketing perspective, this is the classic issue. So many bells and whistles, so many problems to solve. And if you try and tackle them all, you will fail.
[00:19:56] Mm-hmm and a quarter let's not forget is three months. There's just a limit for how much you can accomplish in that time. Given that you also have day to day stuff, you need to get done. Mm-hmm and other responsibilities, quite frankly. I think it's very legitimate to say, we're gonna do this one thing and we are actually gonna do it really well as a team.
[00:20:15] And it's a lot easier to rally a team around one thing rather than saying, okay. And here's the next thing. And, uh, here's also the next thing, right? Yeah. Um, so I, I like how it sets up the revenue leaders to actually go and con convey it to the team why it matters and then ensure they can actually execute on it.
[00:20:34] Toni: No. Absolutely. And I think this is again where also revenue operations comes into a degree, right? Yes, sure. You create the frame and maybe the, the content of the data side for those QBRs. I think the, almost increasingly, so job. Definition and, and purpose also for revenue operations is to create that understanding across the revenue engine.
[00:20:56] You know, we talked about it, I think at QBR is a great way to try and kind of, have those conversations. And then the third thing is, let's just say you decide on conversion rate for a sales to be the topic that needs to be fixed. The wonderful, wonderful VP sales people that I've been working with.
[00:21:16] um, their days are already completely blocked out with just doing the day to day stuff. Yeah. they usually are not the greatest project managers. They usually are. Able to put something like this together, simply not out of, you know, smart simply out of capacity, right?
[00:21:33] And this is actually where then revenue operations can step in and provide some of that structure and framework as well. Right. Kind of, you know, setting up the first meeting to talk about it, uh, get their attention, try and distill what we could do into a project. Then try, you know, push the project through with either additional resources that are necessary.
[00:21:51] Let's say it's an enablement person to be kind of found, you know, and so forth. And this is again, something where revenue operations can be a, a true helper. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, helping, you know, steering strategic shifts here together with the VPO sales instead of being, you know, number one, either the admin, for the systems or, Hey, can you pull this report because I have a difficult conversation coming up, uh, or the, I, uh, you know, I'm, I'm getting, bad rep sheet, at the end of the month because, you know, I didn't hit this thing here and again.
[00:22:25] This is all about shifting some of the. Some of the ways that rev ops, you know, think about themselves. Yeah. And actually add value to their organization.
[00:22:34] Mikkel: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. And I think also if anyone in revenue, operations want to position themselves as that strategic business partner, they shouldn't just be monitoring projects.
[00:22:45] They should actually assist however they can. Right. And, and I think that's, that's super, super crucial for that team. Yes.
[00:22:53] Toni: And kind of, uh, uh, uh, taking almost, you know, maybe one step one step back here, so sure. You set up the QBR, you help the commercial leaders to understand each other. You create transparency, accountability, all of those wonderful things.
[00:23:12], what it also. Enables, uh, and helps with is whoever runs that team, it might be a COO. It might be the CEO to actually deeply understand and know what's going on many, many times. Uh, and especially C if, you know, if, if you're at the stage of a company where all of that rolls into the CEO, there's so many other things for her on her.
[00:23:35] That she needs to think about then, then the details of, of the commercial and the revenue engine. And yes, as the company scales, that will take more and more of her time. But having, one solid rock that, continues, you, you know, gives her at least the same storyline and, and helps her to understand what the deviations are.
[00:23:56] And. And enables her, later on in her one, on ones with the commercial leaders to circle back and be like, Hey, you know, we had this conversation. I know, but I actually wanted to really drill deeper into this area. Can you tell me about this? Yeah. currently, uh, most leaders that go across. Uh, and, and by the way, the CEO will not log into Salesforce and refresh a report.
[00:24:18] They will not log into HubSpot and kind of try and do the same thing. And if you have a fancy BI set up, they probably also not do that. They will wanna read a slide deck. I can promise you that for sure. And, um, uh, that is then really the opportunity for them to actually follow and know what's going on.
[00:24:35] Again, you know, now as a rev op person, if you're running this thing, suddenly you're creating, massive surface. Two, top level of the company and suddenly it will be like, Hey, you know, when, when is this QBR ready on the first of the quarter, by the way. and, and then, then, you know, you broke through and kind of you created value.
[00:24:53] And and that probably that, that ask will not go away by the way that will stay there.
[00:24:58] Mikkel: and they're hooked. I think we kind of might have found a new nickname for you no more. No, no. Now it's slides. You've, you've operated.
[00:25:08] Toni: I know. As you, as you grow older in life,
[00:25:13] Mikkel: QBRs super critical. We're gonna go prep for one, I guess, pretty soon. That's true. Yes. And, um, hope you got some really good advice out of this episode. We're definitely gonna circle back to this scan in the future. Wonderful. Thanks Michael. Bye.