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Join us on our quest for the extraordinary!
Sam McKee (@polymath_sam) has 9 university qualifications across 4 subjects including doctorates in history and philosophy of science and molecular biology. He researches both at two British universities and contributes to both space science and cancer research. Meet fellow polymaths and discipline leaders working on the frontiers of research from all over the world. Be inspired to pursue knowledge and drive the world forwards.
Watch and share interviews with professors, lecturers, researchers, engineers, scientists and astronauts, right here! We talk to the most extraordinary people working on the frontiers for humanity, driving research forwards and changing the world that we live in. We dive deep with thinkers, academics and true icons - many of whom you won't yet have heard of.
Listen to us here and on podcast whilst you drive, exercise, do chores, and be inspired to pursue extraordinary in your own life.
www.sam-mckee.co.uk
Polymath World (00:01.322)
Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Polymath World channel and I am really delighted because this is such a treat for me.
speaking to two legends of underwater photography, oceanography, marine biology, bringing the world of whales, the most extraordinary creatures, to you and to people all over the world through some of the best media you can find. I'm joined by Hall of Fame divers and legends Howard and Michelle Hall. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Howard Hall (00:32.29)
Well, thank you for having us. We're thrilled to be talking with you.
Polymath World (00:36.958)
I followed your work on a lot of wonderful documentaries, whether it was Humpback Whaler Detective Story, I saw recently Speaking With You, and some of Mike Bird's work. But just tell us how long you've both been working with whales and filming them and doing this wonderful work.
Howard Hall (00:56.098)
Well, I started shooting underwater photographs in the mid-1970s.
Back then I was largely a spear fisherman and wanted to use my diving skills and my training as a marine biologist to make a living. Photography sort of presented itself as a good way to move forward and also satisfied many of the hunting instincts that I had as a spear fisherman. So now with a camera I could go out and shoot whatever animal I wanted to, no matter how cute and cuddly it was, and metaphorically take it home and
because if I sold the photographs or the articles and stories that went with it, then I got paid. So that's how I got started, shooting underwater stills and underwater photojournalism. I think the first whales that I saw in the water were humpback whales in 1994, probably, when we were making a film for National Geographic. It was a film that ended up being titled Jewels of the Caribbean. And we went to the Dominican
Republican Republic to snorkel with humpback whales and I think that that was probably the first time I saw a whale in the water. you? No, probably so. Yeah. I got started a bit earlier and
One of my break-in moments was photographing a gray whale off the coast of San Diego, California. And the animal was in the kelp forest and apparently was eating kelp or resting. But I got some pretty unusual photographs. And at the time, 1976, gray whales had never been photographed underwater, at least not to my knowledge or anybody that knew me.
Howard Hall (02:50.088)
And so I got the first underwater shots of a gray whale and I got some unusual above water shots and my images went as double page spreads in National Geographic Magazine, which was somewhat unheard of for a new photographer.
Polymath World (03:06.612)
Yes, I already have a hundred questions off the back of what you both said. This is...
Howard Hall (03:10.318)
In fact, if you watched the image that was just up behind us was the image that Howard was talking about that he captured of the gray whale. Anyway, sorry.
Polymath World (03:22.506)
Wow.
Everyone is enjoying them. I'm enjoying them. I know guests will. You've already sort of given the reveal of the kind of new ground that you guys have helped to break in the 70s, 80s and 90s through to today. And today it seems almost commonplace with GoPro cameras that anyone could accidentally come across a whale and get some incredible footage. But you were both making these documentaries and filming and finding these creatures.
at a time that was a different time. I mean in the 1970s it was still extremely rare because of hunting to come across them and just approaching a whale in a boat must have been a very different sort of thing. before we get to that I'd like to start right at the beginning. How did you both get into diving?
Howard Hall (04:16.078)
Well, I was a competitive swimmer when I was in high school and some of my friends had taken diving classes and I found it interesting. I've always loved wildlife and animals and being able to explore environments that most people don't get to see underwater was a way for me to continue my enjoyment of the natural world and animals. So I started that and took my class in 1966.
and
Then I went on to become a diving instructor and I put myself through college by teaching diving and eventually one of my students was this. Me. She's been a hanger on ever since. So I had a different career before I got involved in filmmaking. I worked as a nurse and I in the mid 70s I was dating a doctor who was a sport diver and I thought that would be something
Polymath World (05:03.018)
Hahaha
Howard Hall (05:18.64)
fun for us to do together so I decided to learn how to scuba dive and ended up in Howard's class and the doctor and I eventually stopped dating and Howard and I eventually started seeing each other and there you go so that's how I got into all of it and and continued to work as a nurse until 1991 so I got certified in 1975 and I worked as a nurse until January of 1991 when I left
nursing to join our family business and quickly was promoted from gopher to boss he says boss if I'm boss he's president of the company but so I went from going using my vacation time and going on shoots with him to actually producing the films that he directs and captures the footage for
Polymath World (06:17.662)
wonder if I could ask you both for a particular anecdote of a moment where Wales in particular captured something of your own heart. Is there a story that immediately springs to mind?
Howard Hall (06:33.058)
Well, the first whale I saw underwater was the gray whale I photographed for National Geographic Magazine. And I had never seen a gray whale underwater. I'm not sure anybody really had. They're a rather elusive animal. They usually don't like to get close to people unless you're down in the lagoons of Baja. it was kind of a remarkable experience because this animal didn't care that I got really, really close to it.
But because I was taking photographs and because the opportunity was so dramatic, I spent all my time thinking about capturing the image rather than what it was like to be with a whale. So I don't think I was able to appreciate the experience as much as I should have. Many years later, I died with gray whales and had much more intimate encounters. But that first one was many ways.
the most important and it was the first and I remember it the least.
It was being in the water snorkeling with a humpback whale in Tonga. I was taking pictures snorkeling and what stands out in my memory of that encounter was how, and I say she, I think it was a female, just came so close to me. She moved her pectoral fin and just skimmed past me. She knew where I was. She knew where she was.
she knew that she didn't want to hit me. Apparently she didn't want to hit me. Apparently she knew that. And she just skimmed her pectoral fin past me. I have a photograph where it's the pectoral fin and the humpback whale in the background. And it's so close, but it just seemed to me at the time that she knew exactly where she was and where I was and what she needed to do to avoid hitting me and hurting me.
Polymath World (08:37.574)
You're both in diving Hall of Fame. Was the pull of the water quite strong from your childhood? Did you both grow up near the sea or near bodies of water?
Howard Hall (08:51.79)
I didn't. I grew up all over the Midwest and the East Coast and really didn't have any exposure to the water until 1975 when I decided to learn how to scuba dive.
I did not grow up watching Sea Hunt or Jacques Cousteau and the programming on television that a lot of people talk about that shaped their lives and made them want to become divers.
That was not part of my childhood. I wanted to be a nurse. That was the only thing I ever wanted to be and that's what I went to school for. And then I decided that I wanted to get involved with film production and the marine environment. But I was well into my 30s.
by the time that happened. Unlike Michelle, there was two television series that were playing in the 1960s that were very influential for me. One was Sea Hunt with Lloyd Bridges as Mike Nelson. And if you were to watch these shows today, you'd just laugh all the way through them. But at the time, the production values were adequate.
I found it enormously inspirational. And even more important was the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau. And I saw all 13 episodes of the first series and that had just a huge impact on me. I wanted to do that. It was never a plan to do that. I I never thought I would be able to do the kinds of things I was seeing on these television shows. But...
Howard Hall (10:34.754)
when presented with an opportunity to move in that direction, I always did. And taking diving lessons, becoming a diving instructor, picking up an underwater camera, were all steps in that direction inspired by, largely by Cousteau. And we've been fortunate.
Polymath World (10:50.43)
Yes, he's a name that always comes up.
Howard Hall (10:54.582)
I was going to say we've been fortunate to meet some of the people who are involved in these television programs. You later met Jacques Cousteau and I never had the opportunity to meet Lloyd Bridges, but I know some of his children. I'm friends with his daughter Lucinda and
Yeah, mean that's, there was some, Zale Perry. Zale Perry was one of the, did some of the stunt work on the, on the Sea Hunt series. And I'm pretty good friends with Zale and I help her with the Zale Perry scholarship, which is given out once a year. So we, our lives have come full circle.
Polymath World (11:22.25)
Yes.
Polymath World (11:41.952)
amazing.
Polymath World (11:46.077)
Yes, well along with your names in terms of the world of underwater videography and Wales in particular, the name Jacques Cousteau always comes up and Jean-Michel Cousteau continuing his work. Roger Payne as well was a massive inspiration to me when I was very very young. I can remember being five years old and my father taking me to the Natural History Museum in London in Kensington.
and it wasn't the dinosaurs that did it for me, it was the life-size model of the blue whale.
and I remember this the late 80s badgering the museum attendant relentlessly and him being so patient with me because I was just what is that? He said very kindly that's a blue whale it's the biggest animal there's ever been and I said where are they? Where do they live? Where do they travel? What do they eat? And the answer to so many of the questions then in the late 80s being we don't know.
And then to my five-year-old horror, finding that they have been hunted to such small numbers, I just every...
trip to the library, the school library, anything I possibly could about Wales from then on, becoming somewhat obsessed with this mystery. But Roger Payne is sort of given a lot of credit for being part of the Save the Wales movement with his activism, but also the videography. And that's sort of the role and the mantle that you guys and your colleagues and those people we've mentioned carry in helping people to see and appreciate these
Polymath World (13:26.014)
wonderful animals. I sort of think whales are a bit of a universal language. It doesn't matter what race, colour, background, nationality, age you come from, everyone can love and appreciate the beauty and wonder of whales. So how have you seen human attitudes towards whales change during the course of your filmmaking and diving careers?
Howard Hall (13:51.65)
Well, think mostly the thing we've noticed is that for the large part, whale hunting has come to an end. And when I started diving in the 60s, were still numerous countries hunting whales. And I actually spent some time in Japan on kind of...
requests to expose some of the things that were happening with whales in Japan at the time, whales and dolphins. back then it was just beginning to become appreciated that the whales were more than just big cows that swim. People were beginning to realize that they have an intelligence that's rather extraordinary and they have sensory capabilities.
that we still to this day do not understand. They live in a universe that's so different from us and yet we interact with them occasionally and these massive animals tend not to hurt people. They try to avoid hurting people. They often are very curious and will come right up and look you in the eye. And when you have that experience, when you have a whale looking at you and you're close enough to look back, you can tell that it's,
It's looking at you. It sees you and it's curious. It's an amazing experience to get a sense of awe when it comes to the potential that these animals are thinking about you. mean, I think a lot of times you think animals don't really think very much. I disagree with that notion, but certainly most people believe that whales think.
Who knows what they think about.
Polymath World (15:46.305)
is the fact that whales, it was discovered the whales sing that I think really changed the human psyche a great deal. That album, the songs of the Humpback Whales seem to have a real transformative effect in the consciousness of people towards whales and whaling. Do you think that the booms in modern whale watching have helped
as you say, bring this hunting era to an end. People would rather see them and take a selfie than eat them.
Howard Hall (16:19.31)
Well, certainly the whale recordings and the album that resulted from that work was a huge hit for something that was just recordings of an animal's noise, but hauntingly beautiful. there was also a number of photographers in the 70s that...
actually predate me to some extent, that captured images of humpback whales underwater. And for the first time, they were able to release these haunting songs that the humpbacks sing, along with images of these spectacular animals in clear water in Hawaii. And the combination of those images and the recordings really started the Save the Whale movement.
You mentioned Roger Payne earlier and I think we must take our hats off to him for the advancements that he made and the awareness that he brought to people regarding whale songs and whales.
Polymath World (17:30.88)
The whales are now seen as more important than ever for the biosphere and for the food chain and all of that. Could you speak into that a little bit? Just how crucially important it is that we have healthy whales in our seas?
Howard Hall (17:49.89)
Well, certainly there's a lot of discussion about how whales help fertilize the deep ocean. They eat an enormous amount, and then when they defecate, that's fertilizer that helps plankton bloom and so forth. there's been a lot of discussion that that's critically important to the health of the marine environment. But being at the very top of the food chain, I think...
you know, environment would probably miss whales less than if we wiped out all the krill or we wiped out all the anchovies, the things that the animals feed on. So I don't know how critically important whales are. They're certainly critically important to me and people that see them and love them. I think most people would be sad to see them go, but I'm not sure how...
critically important they are to the environment. Not that that's an excuse to get rid of them or anything.
Polymath World (18:55.476)
Yeah, well let's hope we never find out.
I'm very excited now to move on to just talking about individual whales and your stories of them and feel free to drop in as many anecdotes as you do. I think we have to start with humpbacks. Michelle, you brought it up in Tonga in the South Pacific. People seem to be able to have really intimate encounters with them. But that's, as I understand it, very much a nursing ground for a lot of those populations where you find a lot of baby humpback whales.
into sort of the sacredness of trust when a mother and a baby allow you into their space and maybe some of your experiences of that.
Howard Hall (19:41.686)
think a lot of the times people who are in boats or in the water with whales are a little surprised that for the most part whales ignore us. They're busy. They're feeding or they're going to places to feed. They have their daytime job. When they go to the lagoons or they go to Tonga, the humpbacks go to Tonga or they go to Hawaii, when they go to tropical waters, they're not feeding.
to pass the winter to make baby whales and to raise those baby whales. And so they have a lot of extra time on their hand. And that's the same with the gray whales in the lagoons of Baja and other species of whales. The right whales in Patagonia are a good example. When they're in the lagoons, they're...
They have nothing better to do. And when presented with an opportunity to interact with a human, they often take advantage of it because it's interesting, it's fun. It's also a way to park their children on somebody else. Go play with that guy over there and let me sleep. I I think that really happens. the way the whales relate to you in the lagoons when they have the time to think about you is very different than when you're out in the open.
an ocean and the whales are moving toward the next food resource or feeding on krill or something like that. our best experiences with whales for the most part have been when the whales were in their calving locations like the Baja Lagoons or Hawaii or Tonga and some of these other places where they go to spend their summers.
Polymath World (21:29.994)
Does that help inform when you make movies, as in, you know, if we film the whales here, we're going to catch a different kind of behaviour and we've got a better chance of maybe getting some real close experiences?
Howard Hall (21:44.866)
Well, it's certainly a huge thing. When you want to film whales, firstly, you don't want to disturb them. You don't want to change their behavior. You don't want to make them go around you. And as far as I'm concerned, a shot of a whale swimming by at 10 knots is not going to help me for my film. So what I'm looking for is whales that are
interested in me and willing to hang around, allow me to get close, or will actually approach me. And that happens in these calving grounds. And I've had some amazing experiences with whales that, you know, were...
I think probably bored, but they were willing to play. And those experiences are just wonderful. I had an experience also in Tonga. think it was, well, it was the same trip that I mentioned earlier where a calf, I saw the calf.
deeper, I was snorkeling, I had my camera and I saw the calf coming up towards me and as it got closer and closer and closer I took some photographs and it eventually came so it just I don't know what it was thinking but it rammed into my mask and I thought dear what has just happened and is mom gonna is mom feel gonna feel threatened and is she gonna come
Polymath World (23:08.992)
Wow.
Howard Hall (23:19.522)
barreling to the surface next. And I lifted my head up thinking nobody saw this and one of the divers in our group was across the way and he did see it happen and he said, Michelle, you've been decaffeinated. I have some of those photographs. Mom did not come to the surface, come after me. I don't really know what was going on, but it was quite an experience.
And then our friend Tom Mustel was in a kayak in Monterey Bay and a humpback whale breached and landed on top of him. He thought he was going to die. I imagine you know of Tom or perhaps you know Tom. I believe he lives in England and he's really good.
Polymath World (24:05.554)
Yes, so that's the documentary, isn't it, that you're on? Yes.
Howard Hall (24:08.684)
Yes, yes, and he made the he ended up well we met him a few months after this incident that I just talked about where the
humpback whale breached and landed on top of him. met him, we were in Hawaii at a conference and he was there. And we met him and it was after that that he got the contract to make the film Whale Detective and he came out here to our home in California and interviewed us for the film. It was just a phenomenal experience that he had. think people get carried away with how intelligent and benevolent these animals are.
Even if whales are as intelligent as humans, there's a lot of stupid humans out there.
And people make mistakes all the time and whales do also. And I don't think this whale that landed on top of Tom when it breached intended to do that. I think it just screwed up. It didn't notice that he was there or kind of misjudged how high it was going to come out of the water. I don't know. But I think that happens. And occasionally, like the calf that ran into Michelle, I don't think it meant to hurt her. It just kind of lost control of itself. And I think that that's a risk that people who dive with whales
have to be aware of because they're not perfect. They make mistakes and when they outweigh you by many thousands of times, that mistake can be pretty damaging.
Polymath World (25:40.66)
Yes, and it's their world that we're entering. And sometimes people get unlucky. I'm interested, Michelle, were you afraid with the calf coming that close and touching your mask? Did it hurt at all? And were you particularly afraid?
Howard Hall (25:45.069)
Yes.
Howard Hall (25:59.214)
It startled me. I don't think I had time to be afraid. was concerned. I wondered what the heck is going on. I wonder why it's coming straight towards me. What's going to happen next? I'm not sure that I was afraid. I think my heart was beating fast, but it was an encounter. I don't think I had time to be afraid. Just like when the adult...
came past me with its pictorial fin. I was lucky that time as well that it didn't seem to want to hurt me or touch me and it moved out of the way so that it didn't. I was a little bit afraid then that it might not move and that it might hurt me. Yes, so that time I probably had more time to be afraid and I was and then I felt very fortunate.
Polymath World (26:58.356)
Now Howard, as I understand it, you've had a very lucky escape with the grey whale in one encounter where you were quite seriously hurt, so I wondered if you could unpack that for us.
Howard Hall (27:11.266)
I'm not sure what are you talking about? I've only really one, had one negative encounter with a whale and it was totally my fault. And I was down in the lagoons of Baja, water visibility was maybe three meters and the people we were working for had.
Polymath World (27:13.312)
Yes, you've got a lot of history with grey whales, I know.
Howard Hall (27:33.634)
wanted us to get a lot of underwater shots and behavioral shots of gray whales, which is absurd. even before we went down, I told them the only thing we're going to be able to accomplish is getting shots of the faces of whales by holding the camera over the side of the boat. But these guys got...
a bit frustrated with us when days went by and we hadn't achieved anything. So I ended up getting in the water with my partner and we swam over towards some whales that were courting, never really intending to get close. But it just happened that they turned toward us and I found myself in the middle of a group of three whales with a courtship behavior. And since I was there to capture images, I thought, well, I should probably do something. And so I freedived down about
30 feet just with a snorkel and turn the camera on in case something happened because visibility was...
really, really awful. It was just like this lime green water. One of the whales suddenly was right next to me and I could see its eye and I could see that it was startled. The way gray whales protect themselves from predators is they use their tails sideways like a big judo chop. When the whale's face disappeared as it turned away, I knew that that was coming. I just rolled up in a ball and it hit me in the left arm.
broke this arm and couple of ribs. Totally deserved. I frightened the animal and I shouldn't have been there. It was just one of those things. That was unpleasant. They put me on a boat and sent me back to San Diego.
Howard Hall (29:20.526)
My trip was over. But I never felt like that was anything but a totally stupid move on my part and had nothing to do with the whale being aggressive or mean or anything like that. It was was startled. And I've been in the water with, I've been in water with numerous other species of whales and I've never had a...
Polymath World (29:36.487)
I guess it is.
Howard Hall (29:45.77)
situation where I felt like maybe sometimes I might have been in the way of a whale that if it wasn't as smart as me, might bump into me, which could be a big deal. But I've never really felt threatened by a whale except for that one case.
Polymath World (30:04.926)
I've heard I have a friend who is a very passionate whale dive encounter person. He's very lucky. He made a lot of money and retired early. So he seems to spend all his leisure time going wherever he can in the world to collect whale experiences. And he came back quite flustered that he had had an experience with a humpback whale calf that had a nickname chaos.
for being a little too friendly and a little too adventurous. He said, we got in the water with chaos a few times and then we felt we'd had enough because you never quite knew he was always going to come for you and he was going to play and move around and you sometimes felt a bit too like maybe the whale was invading your space.
Howard Hall (30:33.228)
Yeah.
Polymath World (30:55.666)
And you spoke earlier, I loved it, of whales sort of seeming to get bored and approaching you, or babysitting, you put it. And I did think it's such a wonderful thing that we're in a time now where baby whales and mothers seem to allow their calves to come to boats. And when I think back to maybe the beginning of your career, that might have been something that I imagine was a rarity. Is that the case?
Howard Hall (31:25.902)
Certainly, people were already beginning to dive with humpback whales and there had been other encounters. that is something that's kind of evolved, sort of hand in hand with the whale recordings and the early shots of humpback whales and why people began to love whales and then they thought, you know, maybe they love us back, which is not the case.
I think a lot of times when we have nothing better to do, they'll play with us a little bit. Whether they see a reflection of their own intelligence in us or not, I don't know. I think it's...
dangerous to assume that these animals think anything like the way we think or perceive the world anything like the way we perceive it. We tend to anthropomorphize the animal and think, well, it's being curious because I'm curious and it senses that I'm intelligent and so there's a bond that goes on there. I don't believe that. think that what we're dealing with is the animal's natural
behavior, its natural attitude, it tends to be unaggressive and it doesn't want to hurt anything. And so it doesn't hurt humans. And whether it thinks that we're something special or not, I have no idea. there's no question that the...
the device in the whale's head, that brain, which is larger than our own, it does something really exotic. Because you can have a whale shark that does the same things that whales do, which is basically swim around, eat fish, and make baby sharks, and it does that with a brain the size of a walnut. So what does a whale or a dolphin need with a brain that's actually larger than ours? And that's a question that I can't begin to answer, and there's nobody that can answer it.
Howard Hall (33:27.12)
We live in an entirely different universe than us.
Polymath World (33:30.048)
Have you managed to do much filming and photographing in polar waters much in your career?
Howard Hall (33:41.742)
No, I have. I did a film for an IMAX film in the Arctic near Small Barred. We didn't see any any whales. We saw a lot of polar bears, but I haven't really personally whales in Arctic waters at all.
Polymath World (34:00.225)
No, I was just curious. I'd love to ask you about Blue Whales, if I may. It was a particularly magical experience of mine seeing the footage you filmed at the original Secrets of the Sea documentary, which I believe people can see for free on YouTube these days, but is very special and that footage has been reproduced many times. It was reproduced in David Attenborough's Blue Planet.
Howard Hall (34:07.694)
Sure.
Polymath World (34:28.294)
and a whole host of things, some of the finest and most important Blue Whale underwater footage ever recorded. seven, eight-year-old Sam on his couch seeing that for the first time really was life-changing.
I want to just unpack, if you don't mind, your experience of filming blue whales underwater and what it is to find and capture blue whale footage as you've both done in the new footage of Secrets of the Sea.
Howard Hall (35:06.635)
Well, I almost hesitate to say how it all started, but I was making my first film, which was Seasons of the Sea, and I got a call from a fisherman saying that there were blue whales feeding out near the Coronado Islands, which are just 10 miles off our coast. And I thought,
I put the receiver down and said to myself, I don't know what he saw, but it wasn't blue whales because at the time it was thought that there were only 1,200 blue whales left on the planet. certainly there were not a group of them off the Coronado Islands. That's absurd. Maybe he was seeing fin whales, but in any case, that was something that happened several days ago. They're certainly gone now.
About five days later, I get another call from a fisherman saying there's blue whales feeding out near the Coronado Islands. And I went, I guess I should have done something, but surely they're gone now. It wasn't until the third call that I went, maybe we ought to go out and have a look.
My friend and I took a boat out for one day. We ended up staying four days out there and having food brought out to us. There was a group of blue whales feeding on krill on the surface. At the time, I thought they were finback whales because I had never seen a blue whale before. And I knew that they were so rare that they couldn't be blue whales. And so I assumed they were fin whales. And I quickly learned that these animals were going from patch of krill to patch of krill.
They could see them a quarter mile away and these krill would be pushed up on the surface by sardines. Sardines were feeding on them, forced the krill into a ball and pushed them to the surface. And then the whales would come through and eat the whole swarm of krill. And they would hit the largest swarm and then they'd go...
Howard Hall (37:02.05)
hundreds of yards, if not a quarter of a to the next largest swarm. And you could predictably know where they were going to be. You just went to the biggest swarm you could find, jumped in the water, and waited. And that's basically what I did. And the first blue whale I saw, I was literally in a patch of krill, and I thought, it's
be a good idea to move out of the krill a little ways. So I was swimming away from the krill and as I turned around and as I turned around I saw the whale turn the camera unfortunately saw the whale come and engulf the entire swarm of krill. And as far as I know that's the first time anybody's filmed a blue whale underwater and the first time anybody's filmed whales feeding underwater. We stayed out for four days and shot additional shots of whales swimming by and feeding on krill. We also filmed
Some other amazing things like blue sharks feed down krill which was unheard of And I guess the the comment I would Make specific to blue whales is that it's a little hard to appreciate how big they are when all you've ever seen is little whales like gray whales and humpback whales and
Polymath World (37:58.793)
Yes.
Howard Hall (38:17.454)
A humpback whale can be 45 feet long. That's a pretty good size humpback whale. A blue whale is almost twice that long. A blue whale could almost take an adult humpback whale in its mouth. And when you see one underwater, especially having had the experience of seeing some other species before, the size is it's disorienting. They're so big that it's hard to tell how close they are to you.
They look more like a submarine going by. Their skin almost had a pewter color to it that is almost metallic. And when they decide to go fast, all the footage I shot of blue whales was shot at...
one time, well, two times slow motion. Because if you shot blue whales at regular speed with a camera and you showed them at regular speed, it wouldn't look real because they move so fast for something that's so big. It's just bizarre. So I always slowed that footage down enough to give you a chance to look at them and get a sense of what they what you expect to see when you see a whale go by. What I recall from
Polymath World (39:34.378)
How do you both... Sorry.
Howard Hall (39:37.132)
What I recall from that is, of course, you were out there for a few days. You went out for one day. You stayed away for a few days. The reason you came, as I recall, the only reason you came home was because you had a speaking engagement that you needed to get home for. And you came in the door and said, I...
People are saying that we were with blue whales, I don't believe it. I think that they were fin whales. Find me, do some research, find me some pictures of fin whales so that I can compare them. And we need to leave in 10 minutes because we have this speaking engagement that we're supposed to go to. It was really unreal.
Polymath World (40:19.454)
Yeah, sounds... You were so privileged to have that access and be in that moment for such a rare, wonderful experience and we were so privileged to share in it because you were there with your camera on. I'm just curious, for both of you, how you balance the work of doing video documentaries.
of these beautiful creatures in this magical world with just being caught in all yourselves of having experiences of a humpback baby come and nuzzle you in the face or having the biggest, rarest animal that's ever lived in the universe, not just on our planet, fly by you at 30 miles an hour.
Howard Hall (41:07.13)
I think sort of unfortunately as a cameraman and a filmmaker I'm so
involved in trying to capture the image that very often what I see of the whale is what I see in the viewfinder. And I don't often get a chance to just appreciate the animal until unless I'm out of film or for some reason the camera fails and then I have
nothing else to do but that's happened a few times. I've had a couple of cases where I was either exhausted or out of film or my battery had died and had nothing else to do but to just...
look. Those are kind of rare moments for me, but I've had some really marvelous experiences that way. I was filming a gray whale off in the California Channel Islands many years ago. It was a totally unusual situation because it was summertime. In the summertime, the whales are supposed to be up in the Bering Sea. What it was doing in the Channel Islands, I have no idea.
The whale showed up next to our boat and I jumped in the water and went down to the bottom in 45 feet of water and stood there with my camera thinking this is ridiculous because the whale's not going to come back. And after about 15 minutes I said, this is just dumb. I should go back to the boat. The whale showed up and the whale...
Howard Hall (42:42.062)
You know, swam around. It fed in the sand on the bottom. And I filmed it like crazy. And when I ran out of film, I ran up, changed film, and came back, filmed it some more. And I did that for about four hours until I was out of film. I was exhausted. I mean, I could not kick anymore. And the whole time I'm swimming as hard as I could to get a good position on the whale to capture some of its behavior. And it was moving like crazy the whole time. But it stayed right near the boat.
And when I finally was exhausted and tired and just couldn't do it anymore, I just stopped on the bottom on my knees and just stopped. And the wheel went by me and disappeared off into the gray. And then it stopped and turned around like, well...
Are you done? And it came back and it swam right at me and it came within a few feet of me and stopped and laid in the sand, literally within touching distance. And I was literally three feet from the eye of this whale and it's just looking at me and we're both totally motionless. And it stayed that way for a short time and then it swam away. And that was an amazing experience because it was obvious in retrospect that that animal was
interacting with me and all my swimming around was part of the game. And when I stopped, it was like, what's going on with the diver? And it came back and showed real interest and then left. Sam, I think to answer your question of how do we reconcile these experiences, for me, whether it's watching an octopus,
trying to feed or just move around, or it's a whale coming at me. It's all kind of surreal. And I just feel privileged to be able to see it. I sit back and I look at it. I look at my pictures. I think about the dive.
Howard Hall (44:54.912)
and the experiences and I just feel so fortunate to have had that opportunity, to have had those opportunities.
It's hard sometimes to relate to other people who are not divers, who have never experienced these things. Yet there's also an unspokenness with other people, other divers who have had these experiences. When I say an unspokenness, we understand each other's...
opportunities that we've had and how special these opportunities are. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's just a matter of awareness. It's a matter of awareness and appreciation and knowing that it's not always going to be this way.
Polymath World (45:41.45)
Yes.
Polymath World (45:47.838)
There's a very interesting parallel.
Polymath World (45:53.183)
Yes, there's a very interesting parallel with... we've had a lot of astronauts on this channel who have done spacewalks and they've had that experience of seeing the earth from that unique vantage point. What you're saying is incredibly similar to what they say in terms of... it's like a secret club of having had an experience that's quite... I can't think of a better word than sacred.
It's a special privilege and when you say it's unspoken I imagine you can talk to each other and say I know what you're talking about in a way that other people who haven't had this experience know. It's a very interesting parallel hearing you both describe it. I've just got to ask here, do you have a favorite species of whale each? Is there a particular kind of whale that you just you love seeing more than others?
Howard Hall (46:50.99)
Well, in some ways the blue whale would be my favorite because I've been so successful with the images that I've managed to capture of blue whales. But they're not particularly friendly. mean, the blue whales that I've seen were busy. They were feeding and they need to eat a lot. And so they were just feeding. And I've had...
maybe eight or nine encounters with whales, with blue whales, since we made Seasons of the Sea. And I've had a chance to film the feeding behavior of blue whales a couple of other times. A couple of times I've had whales come and circle the boat two or three times, express a little interest, but it's not long lasting. And we don't know where blue whales go to have their calves. And they don't seem to have a location that is like the lagoons of Baja,
gray whales go or Hawaii where the humpbacks go or some of these other places. So I have a fondness for blue whales, but the best experiences I've had with whales underwater have been with humpbacks, southern right whales, sperm whales, and gray whales. So in many of those cases the whales were
in a situation where they had nothing better to do than to play with the diver. And I had a chance to really look in their eye and try to figure out what was going on back there.
Polymath World (48:26.368)
How about you, Michelle?
Howard Hall (48:30.924)
I don't have a favorite. I've never been in the water with a blue whale. I somewhat feel that I have because I've watched Howard's footage so much. I've seen them on the surface, but I've never been in the water. I've probably spent more time in the water with humpback whales. So...
One might say that they're my favorite, but I don't know. I've never been in the water with the gray whale. I've seen them from the surface. I've been down to the lagoons and on...
Polymath World (49:00.82)
I'm quite curious.
Howard Hall (49:10.734)
whale watching, gray whale watching trips and that's a really magical experience but I guess for animals that I've been in the water with it would have to be humpback whales.
Polymath World (49:24.49)
quite curious that there are whales that are extremely rare in terms of sightings and seem to be particularly shy. I'm thinking of beaked whales, northern bottom-lose whales, those sorts. Even say whales to some extent. Have you been fortunate enough to come across those particularly shy and rare ones that I mentioned?
Howard Hall (49:49.486)
Well, I've seen a sail whale underwater. I've seen a fin whale underwater. I think I've been in water with eight or ten different species of whales. I don't know of any of them that were particularly rare.
think the southern right whale is a rather rare animal, but it's also one that's relatively easy to get in the water with because they go to a very known location, a limited area, and they're perfectly happy to let you babysit their calves when they're trying to sleep. They're a wonderful animal.
And of course the northern right whale is extremely endangered and I'm not sure they know where they have their calves.
Polymath World (50:38.816)
I have a particular fondness for the bowheads and the right whales. They're just sort of big, fat, slow, of goofy. They just sort of chill around, don't go particularly fast, and I find them quite lovable for that reason.
Howard Hall (50:59.534)
Well, I spent a couple of weeks down in the lagoons of Baja, I mean the lagoons of Patagonia in Argentina. And those are really precious experiences for me. The whales were extraordinarily friendly. And I remember swimming up to a mother and her calf and I said...
wind was blowing really hard and was very very cold on the surface and I swam underwater to get to them and when I got there the mother is laying on the surface and her baby was under her chin and the baby came down and started to play with me and the battery on my camera immediately died and I went you know and so I
I thought, maybe she'll stay there. I turned around and swam back toward the boat on the bottom. As I swimming back toward the boat, I just had this weird sensation. The hairs on the back of your neck stick up a little bit. I looked over to my left and the nose of this female whale was 18 inches from my shoulder. She was following me back, I mean, that close. You'd think you'd hear something. This is monstrous animal.
close to you, there'd be a noise or something, but unless I looked, I would not have known. And when we got back to the boat, she went up and laid underneath it and kind of kept me in the water. And the whole time, the calf was just having a great time swimming around and playing and getting close to me. I remember being able to really look in the eye of that big female and she was just...
I'm not sure, I don't know what she was thinking, it was, I'm sure it was extraordinarily interesting and I would love to know. But it was a wonderful experience and it was a beautiful animal and it was great to be able to swim with those guys.
Polymath World (53:00.17)
is so special. That is just magic. A lot of the people who watch and follow this channel are students. so I wonder if we can speak to them for this final part. What are your hopes for the future of the whale filming videography industry and of how what that can look like in the generations to come and what good can come from it?
Howard Hall (53:32.376)
Well, certainly the only way most people on this planet see whales or in fact most of the animals that live in the ocean and the environment itself is through the images that I capture and my colleagues capture and make films with. so I think it's, I mean, it's something I love to do. So I hate to be, you to act like it's totally altruistic, but.
I do think that it's critically important that people like myself go out and make these films and make them as beautiful as possible and create a sense of value with the people that watch them. So the people that see them, you know, maybe learn to love the whales a little bit or love the octopus or any of the other animals that they see depicted on screen. And if they...
make that emotional connection, they're much more likely to protect the animal if they have an opportunity to do anything. Certainly they'll be more affected when they see another documentary film that talks about how the whales are being hunted to extinction or they're being...
lost because of propeller strikes or the sound pollution is influencing their behavior and all the terrible things that that humans are doing that are influencing whales. I think if it wasn't for the people that started filming whales and people like Roger Payne that captured these amazing recordings, it's possible people still wouldn't know there anything other than just big fish out there.
So I feel it's important that I keep doing it. I love doing it, but I try to make my films as beautiful as possible. I leave it to other people to go with really strong environmental messages. I try to create a sense of value and let that value be the foundation for one other.
Howard Hall (55:42.412)
people see whales, footage of whales being hunted or they're presented with the facts of how endangered these animals are. I feel they're more likely to care.
Polymath World (55:56.596)
Certainly.
Howard Hall (55:57.312)
I guess it's my hope as we talk to students that the technology that is being created and developed now will continue to be developed. And the technology that I'm referring to is identifying different animals versus tagging them that there are I know there are other methods that are being employed for identifying various animals in the sea.
I would love to see that happening and that scientists and students who are working on their PhDs or their various theses collaborate and cooperate with each other so that we don't have a particular animal that has multiple tags in order to identify that individual.
that the scientists and the students who are writing their theses will collaborate on information. That's one of my hopes, that the animals are not harassed the way we have seen in a lot of animals in the past.
Polymath World (57:15.23)
What advice would you both give to young students or even younger people who are looking to do the kind of work you've done and get into wildlife photography and videography?
Howard Hall (57:27.118)
Well, think my best advice I could have is to do it not because you want to make a living at it, not because you want to make some money at it. Do it because you love it. If you're able to sell your images, that's a bonus.
If you find yourself in a situation where you can make a living at it even for a few years, that's a bonus. But it's the process that's important. And if the reason you might be going into this profession with underwater filmmaker or marine biology is because you want to make money or a name for yourself, then I think you're going to be disappointed.
people that really love it are the people that succeed and there's many many people that try to make underwater films and have a wonderful time in the process of doing it that never succeed at it. But that doesn't mean they haven't had a good time. mean, you can have a wonderful time capturing these images and sharing them with your friends and if you can make a living at it, you know, great, but it's a process that's important. It's not the...
the result of making money. I agree.
Polymath World (58:49.706)
Thank so much. If people want to find your work or see your films, where's the best place to go? Where should they look?
Howard Hall (58:58.734)
Well, you can check with our website which is not maintained as well as it should be. We have a couple of films on the moving art website.
That's Louis Schwartzberg's website. He's got some beautiful films on there, including some of ours. We have a site called Wild Window, which is a site with just experiential films with no narration, just music. There's a whale episode on that.
And then we have about a half dozen IMAX films that have been in distribution for many years. And we had one released a couple of years ago and we'll be releasing one next year. Or actually into this year. This year, but you you referenced our website, which is howardhall.com. Easy, pretty easy to remember. And there is a page that you can click on the link that will list
the various films that we've made. Actually, I guess there's more than one page. There's a page of links to a number of our films that can be seen on Vimeo as well as our IMAX films.
Polymath World (01:00:15.712)
I'm glad you mentioned Wild Window. I love having that on in the background while I'm working. I'm really addicted to moving on to Wild Window. It's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. I was so glad I found it. This has been one of my favorite chats. I will put a link in the description of the video so people can find it. This has been absolutely one of my favorite...
Howard Hall (01:00:20.75)
Well, thank you.
Howard Hall (01:00:28.258)
Thank you. I think that's wildwindwood.com. I'm sorry?
Howard Hall (01:00:37.966)
Thank
Polymath World (01:00:42.056)
discussions I've ever had on here and it's such an honor to speak to you both and I do just want to say a huge thank you to you both for what you've done for people like myself and children like YoungMe who were able to find and fall in love with nature in this whole new way because the work you and Jack Cousteau and Roger Payne and so many others have done has made a tremendous difference to so many lives and thank you for all you do and continue to keep doing.
Howard Hall (01:01:13.888)
Our pleasure. Thank you. Thank you much. you to audience too, because if people weren't watching these things, we wouldn't have anything to do. So thank you.
Polymath World (01:01:21.394)
It's been a real pleasure speaking with you both today.
Howard Hall (01:01:25.976)
Thank you.