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For more than 20 years, James Forrest has advised C-level executives, giving him a front-row seat to the business decisions that shape companies, careers, and legacies. The C-Suite Exchange gives listeners that same access. In each episode, James sits down with corporate executives, entrepreneurs, and boardroom leaders for honest, unfiltered conversations about what actually worked, what didn't, and the lessons learned along the way. Instead of the familiar "up and to the right" success story, guests speak candidly about the setbacks behind their growth. They cover the hard conversations they put off, the pivots they never planned for, and what it means to sell a company and figure out who you are afterward, along with the culture, shared ownership, and long-term thinking that helped their organizations last. If you're in the C-suite or aspire to be, or you care about leadership, entrepreneurship, and building organizations that matter, you're in the right place.
Chris Chuang: I think great teams might
be, um, beyond luck, the, the thing.
Um, and, uh, I think that starts with
valuing people, uh, seeing them as more
than just a cog in a, in a strategy, um,
but really investing in people, developing
them so that, you know, you can, uh, stick
together and, and have multiple chapters
of success, multiple different businesses.
So I, I think if you were to study the
founders who've had multiple wins, um,
I would bet most of them have brought
people with them, you know, uh, on
those journeys over and over again.
So I think that's probably the
quiet, you know, secret sauce of, of
having multiple rounds of success.
James Forrest: Hi, I'm James Forest,
and this is the C-Suite Exchange.
For over 20 years, I've advised C-level
executives, giving me a front row seat
to the business decisions that shape
companies, careers, and legacies.
On this show, you'll get that same access.
Honest, unfiltered conversations
with top business leaders on what
actually worked, what didn't, and
the lessons learned along the way.
Welcome to the C-Suite Exchange.
Hi, I'm James Forrest, and welcome to
the C-Suite Exchange, where we go behind
the scenes with corporate executives,
entrepreneurs, and boardroom leaders.
If you're interested in leadership,
entrepreneurship, and building
organizations that matter,
you're in the right place.
Today, I'm delighted to
welcome my friend Chris Chuang.
Chris is the co-founder and CEO of Relay.
His career has taken him from McKinsey
& Company to venture capital to executive
leadership at Bandwidth, all the way
up to COO, to founding and serving
as CEO of Republic Wireless, and now
co-founding and leading Relay, a company
transforming communication, safety, and
productivity among frontline teams like
healthcare, hospitality, manufacturing,
education, and public safety.
Few leaders have seen company
building from as many perspectives
as Chris: consultant, investor,
operator, founder, and CEO.
Today we'll explore entrepreneurship,
innovation, AI, leadership,
culture, and what it really takes
to build enduring companies.
Chris, welcome.
Thank you so much for saying yes to this.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Pleasure to be here.
James Forrest: For those that don't
know you beyond what we just talked
about, give us a little just perspective
personally and professionally on
what brought you to this moment.
Chris Chuang: Um, well, let's see.
Uh, personally, it was a winding road.
Um, you know, never planned on being
in North Carolina, uh, early on.
I'm a California kid.
Yeah.
I grew up in Southern California, went
to Stanford, uh, undergrad, and then
just worked around that area for, uh, a
couple of those jobs that you referenced.
Um, and, uh, we invested in a company,
um, when I was at TCV, uh, out
here in Durham, called Motricity.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, dating myself, think of it
as a early app store platform.
I still remember Motricity.
Yeah, you know?
Like, if you bought a ringtone or game,
uh, on a flip phone back in the day,
that had to happen through some sort of
software, and that was what we built.
Um, and my wife and I, Linda, who you've
met- Yeah … uh, thought it would be
just a two, three-year tour of duty,
maybe off to business school thereafter.
Uh, but we fell in love with North
Carolina, started having kids,
you know, some of my, my, my kids.
Yeah.
And four kids 20 years later,
this is home, and I have had the
good fortune of, uh, building
a few businesses along the way.
But, um, but most importantly,
I'm a, I'm a father of four.
James Forrest: Yeah.
Chris Chuang: I'm a basketball coach.
Um- Yeah.
You're a
James Forrest: great basketball coach.
You're the best basketball coach I know.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Thanks.
I appreciate it.
And, uh, you know, I'm a follower of
Christ, and, uh, and I have the, um,
you know, pleasure to lead, uh, a
couple of interesting, uh, businesses
over these, over these years.
Walk
James Forrest: us through
the professional journey.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
So, uh, again, uh, McKinsey is kinda
where I got my start, uh, out of school.
Went into venture capital, uh,
at TCV, late stage investor.
Um, I was sort of, um, dialing for
dollars in that, um, that was the
era when venture started going more
outbound to try to find companies.
So I was a cold caller.
You know, it was a little easy
selling, sell, easy, easier
to sell money than products.
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, taught me how to be unafraid
to call on a CEO or CFO and realize
that they're just people too, and you
gotta find a way to connect with them.
And so, um, as I mentioned, we,
uh, invested in a company that
I found out in North Carolina.
Um, and, uh, at the age of 25, 26,
um, due to the relationship we, I got
to build by calling, cold calling on
them, uh, they, they offered me a VP
job I was too young to deserve at the
time, but, uh, blessed to receive.
And so I came on as a head of corp
dev, essentially- Mm-hmm … at
the ripe old age of 26 maybe.
That's really incredible.
Um, and then we went on to raise $500
million, um, from a bunch of really
interesting investors, including,
um, uh, famous guys like Carl Icahn-
Yeah … the activist investor.
Mm-hmm.
Not trying to do that one again, but,
uh- But, um, anyhow, we, uh, acquired
a bunch of companies, and then my
last, uh, deal, I sort of dealed my
way out of a job in that we acquired a
company in Seattle, decided to relocate
headquarters out there, and decided,
uh, you know, my wife and I, that we
didn't wanna move to Seattle, that
we had come to love North Carolina.
So then I started looking
around and found Bandwidth.
Um, and, uh, Bandwidth's
a great Triangle story.
You know, founded here- Yeah
… bootstrapped, won Series A, and
then eventually a IPO that, well,
reached a five billion market cap.
So I joined Bandwidth, um,
after meeting the founders.
Um, again, uh, to me it's sort of a, a,
a g- a, a God story in that, um, I, um…
They had, they had no job
rec that I was applying to.
It was just, I got introed to the
founders- Mm … and, uh, we hit it
off, and they're like, "Why don't
you just come work with us?" Mm-hmm.
And, you know, I didn't even know
what I was gonna be doing but I just
had conviction that these guys were
guys that I wanted to partner with.
So, uh, and I'm a very analytical,
rational guy, so to- Mm-hmm … make that
kind of leap of faith- Mm-hmm … just
based on relationship and feel was
unusual for me, but turned out to be
one of the best, uh, moves of my career.
So fast-forwarding, joined
Bandwidth, helped launch some new
growth strategies, became COO.
Um, and then we started a business called
Republic Wireless within Bandwidth.
Mm-hmm.
Um, as we grew that and spun that out
of Bandwidth, I became CEO of Republic.
Um, Republic then morphed into
Relay, and, uh, you know, and,
and now we're- I'm leading Relay.
Um, and we're, you know,
a Series, uh, B company.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think one of the fastest growing
businesses in Triangle, and hopefully
will, uh, become one of the most
valuable, successful businesses in the…
Tech companies, at least, in Triangle.
James Forrest: Congratulations, man.
That's a lot.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Thanks.
James Forrest: That's really cool.
Thanks for sharing all that.
Let's go back to Bandwidth for a second.
Is there one or two things that you
can point to in that experience?
Uh, that, that company obviously speaks
for itself in terms of the s- the numbers.
Yeah.
Then, you know, knowing what I know
about that company, faith, family,
fitness- Yeah … core values, right?
Yeah.
Like, what do you take
away from that time period?
I'm sure it was very special for you.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Um, you know, Bandwidth really… And I,
I've written some articles about this.
Um, somehow they persist on the
internet, but, uh, it really
changed my life in a lot of ways.
Um, I was, uh, sort of a climbing the
corporate ladder guy, you know, defining
success based on the, uh, the measures
of, you know, my peers and, um, and, uh,
and then I met these crazy Bandwidth guys.
And, and I was also, uh, you know,
a workaholic, and I- Mm … I was p-
living a pretty unhealthy lifestyle.
Um, and, uh, and Bandwidth just showed
me that you can build a business and, uh,
achieve success in a very different way.
Um- That, uh, you can b- balance more than
just, just work, you know, in your life.
Uh, that faith, family, fitness as was
the mantra back then could all coexist.
Yeah.
Um, and, uh, uh, you know, as a, as
a little illustration of that, um, so
as you know, I love basketball and,
and, um, at Bandwidth, uh, lunchtime
sports was sort of a big thing.
Mm-hmm.
And so I was sharing an office with
David Morken, the still CEO of Bandwidth.
Uh, he's my chairman at Relay.
And, um, and at lunch rolls around, he's
like, "Hey, like, yeah, I'm gonna go for
a run or bike ride. Why don't you go do
some fitness, you know, something, and
play hoops? There's a court in the back."
And for probably the first
three to six months, I thought
it was some sort of test.
Like, like, "Is this guy, like, a
hard worker? 'Cause, you know, surely
you wouldn't go, be spending an hour
going to go work out at lunch." Yeah.
Um, that wasn't h- the kind
of environments I grew up in.
And so eventually I'm like, "Okay,
I think he means it," and I started
playing hoops at lunch and, uh, you
know, um, that was, uh, that really
helped me get physically healthier.
Yeah.
And then another thing that, you
know, my past lives, we'd always
eat dinner at the office, you know?
Yeah.
Maybe you'd, and you expense it, and it'd
be a nice dinner, but nonetheless, you're
not with your family at 6:00, 7:00 and…
But at Bandwidth, uh, we would go around
and kick people out at 6:00 and, uh,
you know, and really sort of prioritized
family time, like, uh, dinner with your
f- with your family, bedtime routines.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, maybe w- uh, most days we'd hop
back on after 9:00, 10:00 rolls around.
Yeah.
You're getting back to work,
doing what you need to do.
But that just showed me you can
integrate those different, um, aspects
of your life and, uh, and still achieve
success, you know, in your business.
James Forrest: When you think about
i- i- there's the same amount of
work, just less time that you give it.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: Right?
And that goes to long-term health
and sus- sustainability for the team.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: Like, like, do you ascribe
to that now, now that you're out of
that environment a little bit, right?
I mean, do you, have you taken
some of those, those, those, those
gates that you're putting around
your, your physical health, your
family, do you still, uh, use those?
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Um, I do.
And, um, you know, try to build, have,
have, we've tried to build a culture
at Relay that- Yeah … supports that.
Um, so, um, you know, the way I
describe it is if when people ask,
like, "How do you balance everything?"
And, um, and so I say, "One, it's
different for everybody." Yeah.
You know, we all have different, um,
requirements in our, in our lives,
different, uh, levels of endurance
for, uh, different kind of work.
Um, but each person just needs
to define what's, um, s- I, I
describe as sacred in their life.
And, uh, so for me,
that's, uh, dinner time.
Mm-hmm.
Like, uh, I, uh, especially with one
kid off to college now, um, uh, in
these summers when he's home and we're
able to all be a family kind of eating
dinner and, like, that is, uh, you
know, a really special time that- Mm-hmm
is fleeting now that, you know, I'm,
I'm s- have one that's left the nest.
And so, um, uh, we've, you know,
since the Bandwidth days prioritized
that, but i- in this phase of my
life, I, that's even more sacred.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and for a while, what
other, what also was sacred was,
uh, bedtime, you know, routines.
Yeah.
Like, when I had four young kids
and, um, and my wife and I had
to kinda divide and conquer.
You know, you put two down,
I'll put the other two.
And, uh, and unfortunately all
our kids are old enough now where
we don't have that part anymore.
Right.
Um, so in different pha- seasons, I
think different things become sacred
or, or prioritized, and you just have
to guard those things and I think be
really transparent about that- Mm-hmm
with your c- your
teammates, your managers.
Um, and then a good, I think a good
culture and a good team's gonna try to
honor those things and- Yeah … and,
you know, figure out a way to work
around them, and I think it is possible.
James Forrest: Do you think… So one of
the mantras that I use, and I appreciate
you using the W word, the workaholic word.
Yeah.
And I think that's a
little bit of a taboo word.
I, I, I've certainly been
there for probably at least a
decade of my life, maybe more.
Not there anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Thank God.
But do you… One of the mantras
I say to myself regularly is
presence over productivity.
Mm-hmm.
Doesn't mean productivity's bad.
Yeah.
Right?
'Cause I still gotta be productive,
still have to win in the marketplace.
Yeah.
But presence in the moment- Yeah … with
whoever's in front of me right now-
Yeah … is more important than
thinking about the next thing I gotta
do- Mm-hmm … or accomplish or win.
Mm-hmm.
How do you balance these alm- in
some ways overwhelming demands for
productivity with balancing that presence?
Do you think, like, if you give
less time to a certain task, is
that task more productive because
you've been, you've helped yourself
be sustainable in those moments?
Chris Chuang: Um, yeah, no,
I like that, that mantra.
Um, it's one I've had to
learn a bit over time as well.
Uh, I think how important it is
to be, uh, present, especially as
you g- move into leadership roles.
Yeah.
Um, you know, uh, the, the amount that
you're looking at your phone versus,
uh, someone's presentation or looking
them in the eye versus at your- Right
… computer, um, those, those things, uh,
really matter more than I realized.
Um, I think something that, yeah,
I've had to really learn over time is,
um, for good or bad, like, uh, every
little action, body language, word
you say as a CEO especially- Mm-hmm
but l- leaders in general-
Mm-hmm … are, are heavier and, and
more noticed than you would think.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think, uh, I, my co-founder,
Jim, and, uh, my head of, uh, people
services, Allison, have often had to
re- uh, kind of coach me up on that.
Like, um, because for me,
I'm just Chris, you know?
I'm just… I like to think of
myself more as a, as a peer and
kind of in the trenches on things.
Um, but I've really had to now realize
that, like, I have to be really
intentional about how present I am
and, and what I say- Yeah … when,
'cause, uh, it, people will listen
more than I- Mm … I think I, I
even deserve to be listened to.
Right.
So- Right … yeah.
James Forrest: We don't have…
We'll, we'll keep moving.
But, um, one of the things that
I talk about in my journey is
during the workaholic phase- Yeah
I felt like I was a car going,
like, 100 miles an hour.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: And it's
hard to really see anything-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: on the side
of the road- Yeah … when
you're going 100 miles an hour.
Yeah.
And now I'd characterize my
life as going 70 miles an hour-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: eight to five.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: And then I slow
down to maybe 20 miles an hour,
and then every now and then I stop
the car and get out and look at
the flower on the side of the road.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: You know?
Yeah, yeah.
Kind of thing.
Chris Chuang: Yeah, yeah.
James Forrest: It's because y- uh, we
live in a world of extremes, so I, I…
Again, the workaholic word's interesting.
I appreciate you bringing that up.
Yeah.
And I, I think it's important for
business owners to talk about that.
Yeah.
Uh, uh, we, we don't talk about it a lot.
We, we read the headlines in TBJ,
we win the awards, we do the things,
but there's not a lot of stopping
and thinking about, like, like, "Am
I balancing this the right way?"
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
No.
And, um, yeah, I… That all resonates.
Yeah.
I was, you know, 100 miles per
hour kinda guy, and probably would
have, uh, wrecked the car, if you
will- … in some, in one way or another.
Uh, but, um, yeah, I think Bandwidth,
uh, uh, it was the beginning of
seeing that, that you could drive at a
more, um, you know, sustainable pace.
And, um, and there's definitely
seasons that are still 100.
And- Yeah … some seasons are
20, and it's just sort of about,
I think, l- running the long race.
And it's, uh, actually, you know, it's
an interesting topic 'cause, um, I think,
uh, in the last year or two in, in the
Valley, which kinda has, you know, where
I came from, has a very different culture.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, there's that opposite extreme that's
being kinda celebrated at the moment,
uh, the nine-nine-six, uh, thing-
Mm-hmm … if you've heard about that.
Mm. Nine to, 9:00 AM to
9:00 PM, six days a week.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're not working at that
pace, you're not really committed.
And, um, and that's, you know,
that's, that's a, a strategy.
But I think that if you're trying
to build some- like, a enduring
long-term- Yeah … business, which
has always been the Bandwidth way,
and, and, and now our Republic Relay
way- Yeah … as well, um, you know, I
think that's not gonna work, you know?
'Cause, uh, the quiet cost that
people, I, I think underestimate
to a business is attrition.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you, if you have a bunch of people
doing nine-nine-six- Right … uh, but
then they b- they burn out after two,
three years- Mm-hmm … and then you have
to constantly be, uh- Right … you know,
backfilling- The, the knowledge lost,
the, the chemistry among teammates that
has to g- get constantly rebuilt, um, the
trust that, that's sort of lacking because
you haven't been together long enough.
Um, those are all really, I think if you
add them up somehow- Yeah … I mean,
those are soft feeling things, but- Mm-hmm
… they turn into bottom line results.
Sure.
And so, um, I'm really proud of the
fact that Relay, our average tenure
is, you know, eight plus years.
Mm. I've got some folks who have been
with me 15, 20 years now, um, through all
the different chapters of the business.
And, um, I, I, uh, you know, w-
so one thing I talk about at every
board meeting is, um, attrition,
un- undesirable attrition.
Mm-hmm.
And honestly, I can't think of the last,
um, person that we've lost- Yeah … that,
that we really needed or wanted to keep.
Yeah.
Um, and so I think that that means we're,
again, we have seasons, but we're, we're
managing it in the long race kind of way.
Yeah.
James Forrest: I think anybody that's
reasonable, if you run the nine-nine-six,
you're solving for quarters, not
years- Yes … and not decades.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: Right?
You're running har- it's like track.
You run a sprint- Yeah … you run
hard for- Yeah … a quarter mile.
Yeah.
But you can't do it for a mile.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: You know, or 10 miles.
Yeah.
Maybe some people can,
one out of 100, but-
Chris Chuang: Yes
… James Forrest: not many.
And so I love that.
Yeah.
That's so good, man.
Yeah.
Talk to us about Relay.
Uh, tell us- Yeah … what you're up to
there, what the company's mission is.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Uh, well, we like to say we're on a
mission to help frontline teams soar.
Um, soar meaning, uh, seeing their
communications, their safety, and
ultimately their productivity,
um, rise in, in dramatic ways.
And the way we do that is by building
a platform that, um, while it can do so
many things, and I, I'll talk more about
it, um, you know, it starts with just
replacing people's traditional radios.
So those old school walkie-talkies- Mm-hmm
… which probably a lot of people think have,
you know, assume have already gone away.
Mm-hmm.
That's still a $16
billion market globally.
Wow.
It's still growing.
Did not know that.
Um, and now that I've mentioned
it to you, like you will see
walkie-talkies everywhere.
Hmm.
They're on the belts of, um, ho-
uh, hotel workers, in manufacturing
plants, warehouses, hospitals-
Hmm … stadiums, uh, churches.
Um, they still are everywhere.
And it's sort of this crazy thing
because, um, radios, if, you know,
not to get too technical, or I
won't get technical at all, but
basically they are like flip phones.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, they're not internet
cloud-based devices.
They just do basic communications.
And, um, and so can you imagine
your work if, uh, I handed you
back an old-school flip phone?
Right.
Like, um, all the productivity that
you'd lose by not having software,
now AI present on your body, like-
Right … accessible in that device.
Right.
And that is the, um, the, the
work life of 80% of the world.
Mm-hmm.
80% of the world, 2.7 billion people,
uh, you know, of the workforce, um,
are frontline workers who, yes, they
have iPhones in their personal lives,
but, uh, on the job, they're of- often,
um, not allowed to use them- Mm-hmm
or discouraged from using
them for a lot of reasons.
Like, and you're in a, in a steel
mill in West Virginia, um, not
allowed because it's a dangerous
place, and you need your eyes up-
Mm-hmm … minding forklifts and falling
parts and- Mm-hmm … fire, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Um, or, um, uh, if you're cleaning,
uh, let's say, corporate America's
offices as a, as a, a, a cleaning
staff, uh, by contract a lo- a lot of
times you're not allowed to bring a
smartphone because it can record- Mm-hmm
you know, sensitive, uh, information.
Um, and then of course, just the
distraction of a screen, right?
Um- Mm-hmm … a lot of companies are
not, don't have I- um, sophisticated
IT to, like- Right … lock down the
device, and so now you have, you know,
the distraction of Instagram and, and
all- Mm-hmm … those type of things.
So for all these reasons, the radio
is still, uh, a huge market, and yet
it holds all this giant workforce,
um, back from being, uh, you know,
reaching the power of the cloud.
Mm-hmm.
And so, so for Relay, we,
we designed cloud first.
Um, we built a better radio.
It took us about five years,
but we've done that now.
Um, we're earning a right to be
on the belts and on the shoulders
and in the hands of these workers.
Um, but not only have we built a better
radio for them, we are now giving
them the power of the cloud- Mm-hmm
and software and AI.
So I think today if, if, if
you've heard of Relay, you f-
you think of us as a smart radio.
I think in three years you'll
think of us as that company
bringing AI to the front lines.
Um, and it starts with earning a right to
be on the, the bodies of the front lines.
James Forrest: Let's talk founders.
They're … We a- we both
know lots of founders.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: And there are some
that seem to kind of plateau, and
there's some that seem to, you
know, keep having success at company
after co- Yeah … after company.
Is there a trait or two that you
observe amongst other founders that
separate from the others in terms
of what creates that longevity?
Chris Chuang: Um, I mean, honestly,
there's a lot of luck involved.
Uh, you know, I think, um, great ideas
are not the, the winning r- uh, variable.
Um, I think great teams might be,
um, beyond luck, the, the thing.
Um- Yeah … and, uh, I think
that starts with valuing people-
Mm-hmm … uh, seeing them as more
than just a, a cog in a, in a strategy.
Um, but really investing in people,
developing them so that, you know,
you can, uh, stick together and, and
have multiple chapters of success,
multiple different businesses.
So I, I think if you were to study the
founders who've had multiple wins, um,
I would bet most of them have brought
people with them, you know, uh, on
those journeys over and over again.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So I think that's probably the quiet,
you know, secret sauce of, of having
multiple rounds of success, and
certainly it's been part of our journey.
Um, the same, uh … So you know,
uh, at, at Bandwidth, one of our
earliest, like, leading engineers,
um, the … is now our CTO, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and he has been with us
on every chapter of the journey,
uh, the success of Bandwidth to the
success of Republic Wireless, which
we scaled to 100 million in revenue
and serving hundreds of thousands of
consumers, to now the success of Relay.
And, um, and then his first, uh,
engineering hires, you know, some
right out of NC State, you know,
br- brand new green engineers
are now our lead architects.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think those are just
some … You know, and I have many
more examples, but when you invest in
people, develop them, uh, and then build
that relationship, um, you can have
multiple rounds of success over time.
James Forrest: Let's
talk about malleability.
One of the things that's key, I
think, with people in the C-suite
that are successful is they have
to pivot, right, when, when the
variables and the facts change.
Maybe take this one of two ways.
Is there a decision that at
the time you're like, "Man, I'm
not sure this is gonna work.
I don't know if we're on the
right foot," and it turned out
to be the very best decision?
Or something you were 110% confident
about turned out to be dead wrong,
uh, or it worked then, then it
doesn't work now, and that pivot?
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Um, yeah, we've, we've pivoted,
um, you know, a bunch over time
so, um, definitely, um, have a lot
of stories to tell on this front.
Let's see.
Um, well, one that I would probably
start with is, um The, uh, just
to pivot from being a consumer
business to a B2B business.
So, you know, we were Republic Wireless.
Mm-hmm.
We were Consumer Reports top
prepaid carrier multiple years.
Um, the natural logical thing was
to, um, stay in consumer, and we did.
We had the first version of Relay,
um, was, uh, a kids product.
Um, and basically think of it as trying
to build a kid's first phone before the
iPhone- Mm-hmm … but without the screen.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So a safer, um, lower cost way to
kind of begin to communicate with your
child as they, as they left your side.
Um, and that business was going well.
We were, uh, you know, zero to 3
million of ARR in the first year.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I think great growth
rates by most measures for,
for that early in a journey.
We had national retail, uh,
Target distribution, thousand plus
stores, so we're humming, right?
Mm-hmm.
We're cooking with gas, and, um, but
then, uh, what happened was the frontline
world, which we had, you know, had
on the whiteboard of opportunity but
weren't prioritizing yet, started to,
like, see us at Target, buy us for their
kids, take it home, and, and realize,
"Wait, I can, I can use this at work."
Mm. Um, and they'd come to our cute kid
website- … um, find the Contact Us link
buried at the bottom, submit a form, go
through all these steps, no salespeople,
no marketing, no, no SDRs, what have you,
and say, "How do I buy 500 of these?"
And, and so, um, while that's, that
sounds like a, "Hey, you should obviously
go after that," it wasn't that obvious
because, you know, we had this, like,
thriving consumer business and, um, but
what we've always been about is really
kind of following the data and, and, um,
um, and so we, as we, you know, followed
the data and really analyzed the, the,
the B2B opportunity more, ultimately what
we realized, not to get too financial,
is that the, the lifetime value, um, of
that type of customer was always g- was
gonna be more, um, lucrative over time.
Mm-hmm.
Just because, um- Mm-hmm … kids
al- still want iPhones, so you have a
defined- Yeah … fixed lifetime for,
uh, for that consumer profile, whereas
a, a business wants their investment
to last as long as possible, right?
Mm-hmm.
Get return as long as you can.
Mm-hmm.
And so we were just fundamentally, um,
more aligned in that way in our business
model and, and the customer's goals.
And, uh, so we followed data and m-
made that pivot from consumer, which we
had been doing for, you know, a decade
plus- Mm-hmm … into B2B, which was
a new, um, territory for us and- Yeah.
But you know, six years later,
that one's worked out really well.
Um- At the same time, uh, we had, we've
had many, uh, bets that have gone awry too
And so, um, I think it's just the
courage to follow the data and the
humility to, to accept being wrong.
Yeah.
And, um, and then a team that will
ride with you through those changes.
Um, those are some of the, I
guess, lessons from all that.
James Forrest: Sometimes that
emotional, non-logical, I'm just
gonna stick with my gut in the
face of the facts can be deadly.
Chris Chuang: Yeah, yeah.
Or the sunk cost, you know, kind
of fallacy, and, um, just worrying
about, well, we put all this time in-
Yeah … and we, we invested all this.
Like- Right … um, yeah,
which I, I deeply understand.
I, I feel that.
James Forrest: Mm-hmm.
Chris Chuang: But, um, but that can
really hold you back on- Yeah … uh,
even, even better opportunities.
James Forrest: So Relay's out there
B2B, but serving frontline customers.
Yeah.
What have you learned from
thinking through the f- the
frontline service folks, right?
That demographic.
What, what can, what have
you learned about them?
What have they taught you
about life and leadership?
Chris Chuang: Um, I guess how
important empathy really is, not just
for your teammates and coworkers,
um, but for your customers.
Um, and I think empathy, um, you
know, is hard to have behind a desk.
Um- Mm-hmm … so at Relay we really,
um, prioritize getting out in the field
and walking the, the workflows that
we're trying to digitally transform.
You know, that's a popular business
jargon term these days, right?
Digital transformation.
And one of the problems that I think
Relay solves is that, um, most of
the tech industry i- is trying to
digitally transform the frontlines.
We're not the only ones going after that.
But they come at it w- lacking empathy
in that they, they, uh, are coming at
it with solutions and user experiences
that are basically the, the software
experiences that make sense for, for
desk workers like you and I. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And they're just trying to, like,
jam that into the, the factory.
Mm-hmm.
So how that manifests is, um,
uh, they'll build an app, and
they'll put it on an iPad.
And they'll be like, "Hey,
this is a beautiful app," on,
like, this fancy iPad screen.
Like, that should work.
That, and so, but what, what … If
you think, if you pause and think
about it, and by the way, this is
billions of dollars and lots of
smart venture capitalists- Mm-hmm
and entrepreneurs-
Mm-hmm … doing it that way.
But I just think that, um, I
would ask how many of them have
actually walked a steel mill?
Mm-hmm.
Because if you walk the steel mill, you'll
start to see pretty obvious things like,
okay, well, everybody's wearing gloves.
Mm-hmm.
And so- Mm-hmm … touchscreen's
not so easy.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and okay, like, uh, you know, you're
not gonna have an iPad for every worker.
Usually they're kind of at a fixed
station shared among this, uh, a line.
But now to digitally capture the workflow
Like something's complete or, you know,
whatnot, you actually have to get the guy
to stop the work that he's trying to be
productive on, take off his gloves, walk
over to the iPad, log into the iPad, punch
a bunch of menus just to like enter data.
And so, um, that's sort of like
the insanity of this, the, the
technology software world trying to
digitally transform the frontline
world without, uh, the empathy that's
built by walking in their shoes.
And so Relay takes a
very different approach.
Um, um, you know, what we're
trying to do is bring software,
um, to the frontlines in a way that
does not require behavior change.
Right.
Uh, we ask them to carry this
radio and not that radio.
Mm-hmm.
Um, just that one change alone- Mm-hmm
… and just work the way you've always been
working, um, is all we ask, you know-
Mm-hmm … of the frontline worker, and
I think it's been really well received.
And so now what happens is instead of
having to walk to that iPad- Mm-hmm
and do all these things, stop your
work to, to enter, you know, new work,
um, you just like lean over into your
shoulder mic, you know, that, you know,
you s- police off- often have and th-
this is how steelworkers preferred
using radios as well, and just talk.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Just like you would to your manager.
Mm-hmm.
But now instead of talking to your
manager, you're, you're talking to our
cloud, our AI- Mm … our assistant.
Um, instead of having to go to the iPad
to say, "Hey, order complete"- Mm … or,
uh, "Machine broken," you just lean over
into your shoulder mic and say, "Machine
broken"- Mm-hmm … "Order complete." And
so, um, we, we have this natural language
way of, uh, interfacing that i- I think
fits the way that frontline workers work,
and that is, I think, the key to really
digitally transforming what they're doing.
James Forrest: Mm-hmm.
You've been a founder and multiple times.
Um, you've also been on the
investment side- Yeah … right?
Venture capital and otherwise.
What do you think investors
misunderstand about founders and/or
conversely, the other way around?
What do founders
misunderstand about investors?
Chris Chuang: Um, yeah.
So maybe I'll start with the latter.
Um, I think, uh, founders assume that
investors, um, uh, know more than they do.
Uh, you know, um, I think at least growing
up in, in the worlds I did, VCs were
sort of put on this pedestal, you know.
Um, and of course they're prognosticating
the future and, you know, we
celebrate them in so many ways.
But, um, but I think that, you
know, w- um, how I've engaged best
with VCs is to, um, really, uh,
uh, dumb things down for them.
I don't mean that in that they, they're
dumb and they need that, but like,
just, um, again- Sure … back to
empathy, realizing that they, they…
I'm not assuming that they actually
know our market any better than we do.
And so I, um, I break things down
in a kind of s- more step-by-step
way, and I think that investors
really appreciate the…
I did- Yeah … you know, 'cause I was
on the other side and I didn't know
more than the- Mm-hmm … the operator.
Mm-hmm.
And I… And so kind of unpacking
things, uh, in the… I'm talking about,
like, engaging in diligence, right?
In a way that's, um, really
just, uh, uh, very step-by-step,
layers of the onion, if you will.
I think that's one of the s- keys to
success in engaging with investors.
'Cause investors, you know, it's,
it's easy, it's generally easy to
get past the first pitch meeting.
I think, you know, where m-
percentage-wise most deals
break down is in diligence.
Mm-hmm.
And I think, um, you know, that would
be my advice to, to, uh, help, uh, em-
entrepreneurs engage investors better.
As to the other, what, what do
investors perceive about entrepreneurs?
Um- Um, I think maybe that they, you
know, I mean, let's say you have a,
a entrepreneur that is more technical
product, um, to assume that they,
they don't have financial command
of the business- Mm-hmm … and that
that's what you have to bring as
an investor and, um- Mm-hmm … and
that your perspective through the
financial model is sort of- Mm-hmm
the way.
Um, I think that probably is
how I felt as a young investor.
Like, "Well, my spreadsheet says this,
so that should be the answer." And,
um, and I think, you know, instead
that investors should realize that
the entrepreneur probably is more
financial than you give them credit for,
even if they don't have an investment
banking background or what have you.
Yeah, sure.
Um, but also that, um, that financial
lens is only one piece of the puzzle.
Yeah.
And the entrepreneur's balancing
many, including the human factor.
Like, um, that's been a massive
learning for me going from consultant
to, uh, to ven- to venture investor to
operator, is everything can make sense
on a PowerPoint or a spreadsheet, but
when you, when it hits people, um,
that's where the real, I think, um,
differentiators of, of outcome happen.
Yeah.
And, um, you know, it, to think it's just
people is, um, I think a, uh, a naivete
of the- Mm-hmm … uh, investor world.
Sure.
And the best investors realize how
challenging the people part of it
is- Mm-hmm … and will diligence
not just the technology and the
strategies, but the culture.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think any investor who doesn't
diligence culture is gonna probably miss
more often than they re- they think.
James Forrest: Yeah.
Let's talk people.
Let's talk culture at Relay You've
been in, in several high growth
companies and it's, I think it's
harder to maintain culture as
you're growing really fast, right?
Yeah.
New people.
Chris Chuang: Really hard.
James Forrest: Um, talk to me about that.
How do you put a flag in the ground
around culture- Yeah … and, or
what i- filter are you looking
through when you're hiring?
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Um, so I, I don't have it all figured out.
Um, as we're rapidly scaling Relay,
um, this is a hot topic and a top three
focus of mine- Mm-hmm … because,
uh, Republic was s- rapid scale, uh,
as well, and I think that we didn't
get it right, um, in that journey,
that culture did fragment and change.
And so some of the things I'm at least
attempting, um, you know, and we'll
and maybe ask me again in a few years
and- … I'll tell you if it worked.
Um, but one, um, uh, and I'm not
saying that this solves anything, you
know, by itself, but I, um, I still
interview every final candidate we
have for every position, high or low.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I didn't do that in Republic,
and my role in the process is not
to assess their technical acumen
or capability in a given function,
but really focusing on culture.
And so, um, so I think that more
senior leader, if not CEO kind of
involvement in the recruiting process,
even as we're hiring, you know, 100
plus people this year, um, uh, is, is
important to help protect that culture.
Another thing that we're doing
is trying to codify it and keep
it updated in a written way.
James Forrest: Yeah.
Chris Chuang: Um, it's, it's a pain.
Mm-hmm.
It's, you know, it's not, it's not
the funnest work to have to like,
write down like who you think you
are, um, and agonize over the words.
But I think that codifying into
specific words and phrases, into
language that people can share together-
Yeah … is, um, is, is necessary
and powerful, that you can't just
rely on it happeningly, happening,
uh, in a tribal kind of verbal way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, um, and then the last thing I
think is, uh, which we haven't done much
of historically, but I'm trying to make
a bigger priority now, is to train it.
Mm-hmm.
Um- Mm-hmm … I, when I joined McKinsey,
um, you know, at the time I thought
it was cheesy and not a great use of
time, but w- McKinsey spends like the
first few weeks just training you on
lots of things, including the, the
McKinsey way and, and their culture.
And I, I … Back when I was 22, I just
wanted to get through it and get on to the
real work, but now I'm realizing how much
that, uh, ingrained the culture in me.
Mm-hmm.
And so, um, you know, I think it's easy
to wanna quickly get past onboarding
and get people into their roles,
but investing the time upfront to
teach the culture, h- how do you…
And, and do it in tangible ways.
Like, not just like here's the core
values or principles, but let's give
live examples like from last week-
Mm-hmm … of when the values like came
into play, the principles came into play.
Mm-hmm.
So this latter part is an area that we, we
really need to, um, do more of at Relay.
We haven't done a ton of it, but it's
something that, um, my chief My head
of, uh, people services and I are, are
really kind of focused on going forward.
James Forrest: Yeah, I love that.
Uh, from my bird's-eye view into a lot
of different companies, almost every
company writes it down, puts it on the
wall- Yeah … puts it in the manual.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: I think one, one of the
things I've seen is, is what you just
said, those, where you get up at a
company meeting or, or every week on Slack
you celebrate a mission moment, right?
Yeah.
Or a core value moment- Yeah … where
you, you pull something out
of what happened this week-
Yeah … and tie it back to one of
those core values or the mission.
It's where people start to-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: start to get in the water-
Chris Chuang: Yeah … a
James Forrest: little bit.
Chris Chuang: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so those are some attempts at it.
Yeah.
But, um, it's, it's a moving target and,
uh, w- you know, again, we'll, we'll see
how well we, we pull it off this time.
James Forrest: Well, Barry
Barber from Kimley-Horn was on,
uh, earlier this season, and so
you should check that episode.
He, he was in charge of culture at
Kimley-Horn for a long time- Yeah … and
they won all these awards and stuff.
It's good stuff.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: Um, let's talk about
a professional mistake or failure
that you just can't unsee, meaning
that you won't make that same mistake
again, you learned a lot from it,
impacts the way that you lead today.
Chris Chuang: Um, well, um, you know,
not to be redundant, but I think the,
the culture, uh, topic is the one that,
um, I, I felt like Republic, um, was held
back because we let culture fragment.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, it taught me the lesson of how
important culture is and people are-
Yeah … 'cause, um, you know, the,
the market opportunity was bigger
and, you know, there was more, like,
room for success that, that we had.
But I think that we just didn't
function as cohesively as a
team- Mm-hmm … as we needed to.
It was nothing dramatic, like, like
this wasn't like, um, you know, um,
a, a, you know, a, a fire of any sort.
But I think it just held us back from
being the, the best that we could be.
So, uh, that's why this
time around, um- Yeah
you know, I, I'm, I'm just so focused
on getting cl- It's, it's the mistake
that, uh, I can't- Mm-hmm … unsee.
Although at the same time, um, I don't
really hold onto the past in that way.
Yeah.
Um, so, uh, you know, mistake you
can't unsee is probably not something
I would say really describes it for me.
Sure.
But, but I get the point and, and- Yeah
and that would be it.
But, um, I think that's another part of
being an entrepreneur is just the, uh,
um, like a tennis player, you kinda have
to, uh, you know, flush the last shot
that you missed 'cause, uh, if you get
stuck in that loop of negativity, it
goes down- Yeah … downhill pretty fast.
James Forrest: One of the best
things I've heard in that department
is treating things like that
like a rear view mirror in a car.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: Like, if you
ignore the rear view mirror-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: you're gonna be in trouble.
Yeah.
But if you stare in the rear view mirror-
Chris Chuang: Yes … you're gonna be in
James Forrest: trouble.
Chris Chuang: Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
James Forrest: You know, it's kind
of a quick glance up every now and
then, make sure you don't forget.
Chris Chuang: Yep.
James Forrest: But, but then you're-
Chris Chuang: Yep
… James Forrest: then
you're, then you're moving.
Chris Chuang: Yep, yep.
So, uh, that's kinda how, how we're wired.
And I think- Yeah … that's
pretty key for entrepreneurs
to, to be wired that way.
Yeah.
That, uh, otherwise you can, um,
kinda get stuck in, in that looking,
looking behind you too much.
Right.
So, yeah.
James Forrest: The CEO seat
is pretty lonely, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's a rarefied air.
There's not many people
that have sat in that seat.
Um, what's maybe something before
you sat in that seat for the
first time that really surprised
you now that you're in it?
Chris Chuang: Um, yeah.
I guess, uh, you know, uh, we touched on
this a little bit earlier, but the weight
of your words, um, you know, that, that
surprised me, um, still surprises me.
Mm-hmm.
I'll say something, light-hearted joke in
a all-hands… I did just last all-hands.
Yeah.
And, uh, and it, it
lands- You didn't run it
James Forrest: by the lawyers.
I'm just
Chris Chuang: kidding.
It… No, not the lawyers.
Uh, and, um, you know, it just
landed in, for some people, in a way
that I didn't intend and, you know.
Um, and I'm not blaming them for- Yeah
uh, uh, how they received it.
I'm just… It was a good reminder of,
like, how important, uh, you know, being
intentional about everything you say is.
And, um, and I'm not gonna… You know,
at the same time, can't look in the
rear view too much on that because, uh,
then you get sort of robotic- Mm … and
you lose authenticity of who you are.
Right.
Um, but I, you know, it just always
a good reminder, uh, or I need that
period- periodic reminder of, of how, um,
weighty your words are in the CEO chair.
Mm-hmm.
Even if you, you know, again, you don't
see yourself in that big shot way, right?
Yeah.
It's just like, "Hey, I'm, I'm just
Chris. I'm just a, I'm a teammate."
That's kinda how I, I view myself, but I
have to be reminded occasionally that, no,
you are CEO and- Mm-hmm … and, uh, you
know, your words kind of w- weigh a little
heavier than, than you would want, so.
Right.
So you have to be careful.
James Forrest: Let's talk hiring.
Y- you just mentioned that
you do a lot of interviews.
Chris Chuang: I do,
James Forrest: yeah.
Um, yeah, so thank you
for saying yes to this.
I feel like I stole you
away from an interview.
Um- I
Chris Chuang: literally was
just interviewing somebody
right before I came here, so.
James Forrest: So everyone looks
at CV, educational background-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: professional background.
Chris Chuang: Mm-hmm.
James Forrest: And then you
spend 30 minutes with somebody
or an hour with somebody.
You try to ask them key questions.
What are you looking for beyond
the, the CV and the background?
Chris Chuang: You know, I'm
looking for confidence and poise.
Sometimes I think it is a bit unusual
for, um, CEOs to be part of the interview
process, so, uh, you know, people
can get really nervous about that.
Mm-hmm.
So when people, um, you know, look me in
the eye the right way and- Mm-hmm … uh,
and, uh, have a confidence in their,
in their words, I, I, I, I notice that,
and that's something that stands out
no matter what c- you know, college
they went to or where they've worked.
Um, I've had some people who had very
impressive resumes who were very nervous.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And not that that's a disqualifier,
but, but it's, um, helps me frame, like,
what strengths and weaknesses they have.
Um, uh, what questions they ask is
actually something I'm looking for.
Um, and you know, there… I think
there must be, like, a what do
I, like- What, like someone…
There's a g- Google search-
Yes … for that's very well, uh-
James Forrest: Best questions to ask
when they ask you what you want to know.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
And specifically of a CEO.
Yeah.
And I, and I know when people- … have
just run the Google search and they're
asking me the generic question, and so
when people ask me a, a more authentic
question, um, I think that that
really stands out, you know, again,
beyond the CV, beyond the, the- Mm-hmm
the GPAs or school or what have you.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I also think- If people
are willing to be a little bit, uh,
vulnerable- Mm … um, and not just give
the perfect answer, that, that I really
notice, uh, when, when people are- Yeah
… willing to be honest and truthful.
Um- Yeah … you know, that…
'Cause in- inevitably not
everything's gonna go right- Mm-hmm
and you want people who are willing to
tell you the truth when things aren't
going right, and that, I notice that
in the interview process as well.
Yeah.
It's
James Forrest: good stuff, man.
Yeah.
I'm a big Patrick Lencioni guy.
Uh-huh.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: And he talks about
hungry, humble, smart- Yes … is
the matrix he looks at hiring from.
Yeah.
And that humility piece-
Yes … is really hard to find.
Yeah.
Particularly when you have
sophisticated pedigree and background-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: the humility
scale teams- seems to-
Chris Chuang: Yes
… James Forrest: it's inversely related.
Yeah.
And so-
Chris Chuang: Yeah
… James Forrest: that vulnerability
piece- Yeah … is a big deal.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
You know, two other small tips for
if it's helpful for those watching,
um, that I just think are so easy and
under- underdone in this era at least.
Um, one is on the front end.
Uh, every interview that I've b-
personally gone to or, you know,
if my son is interviewing someplace
I've coached him on, or my wife, is
I, I, I tell them to build a deck.
Um, that an interview is ultimately
about someone trying to picture
you working at that company.
And so if you bring something tangible
to help them, um, see how you would
work at that company, so, you know.
And that deck could be a little
bit about yourself, but it could
be a, you know, 30, 60, 90.
"Hey, if I was- Mm-hmm … if I
got this job, here's what I would
be doing and here's how I would be
communicating with you." Mm-hmm.
In- including in writing.
Um, or, uh, if you're applying for, uh,
a, a marketing job, "Here's a, here's
a campaign I think that, you know…"
Again, I don't, um, you know, with
humility- Yeah … I don't know your
business, but outside in, showing
hunger and research up front.
"Here's a campaign idea that, you know,
I think I would love to pursue or explore
if I join the company." Or if you're,
uh, applying for a finance role, "Here's
a example of a financial model- Yeah
I would build." And so, um, you know,
especially in this day and age of
Claude and, and AI- Mm-hmm … um,
it's so easy to, like, whip that up.
Sure.
I mean, you could tell
Claude to do that for you.
Right.
And so, um, but I, I think less
than 5% of applicants ever bring
something tangible into the room
that would show that proactive- Mm
um, hunger and- Yeah … and preparation.
On the back end, um, people don't always
send, uh, thank you notes anymore.
James Forrest: Yeah.
Chris Chuang: And I notice that.
Yeah.
I'm like, it's so easy
to send a thank you note.
Yeah.
Um, and- People
James Forrest: don't know how to write.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: People
don't know how to write.
People don't know how to use the mailbox.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
And so, uh, so less than 10% of
people s- send a follow-up thank you
these days- Yeah … and less than 5-
That's interesting … less than 5% of
people bring something into the room.
James Forrest: Okay.
Chris Chuang: So if you're interviewing
with us or anywhere, I would say
those are just two easy tips.
Take a- they take a
little bit of time- Yeah
but, you know, I think you'll get
disproportionate return on your time.
James Forrest: Yeah.
I have a follow-up question there.
Yeah.
Because you're a pedigree guy, and
you hire all these people You think
about the value that we put on college.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: How much
we prep our kids for it.
Yeah.
How, I mean, we're in, we're
solving for college from,
like, seventh grade on- Yeah.
Mm-hmm … right?
In many ways.
Private school, different things.
Chris Chuang: Yes, absolutely
James Forrest: A- and then we're seeing
resumes, you and I both, of people
coming out, kids coming out of s-
schools, law schools, what have you.
Yeah.
And you got your tier one
schools, your tier twos,
whatever you wanna divide it up.
Yeah, sure.
Right?
Do you think the value that
we place on it as society is
coming through in the workplace?
For me, many of the best hires we've
had- Yeah … are not from… They don't
have, they don't have the pedigree.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, growing up, um, in my value
system, my parents as, uh, immigrants
into the, the States, the going to
a top tier school was the only path
that they were aware of to success.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so that was how I was ingrained.
And, um, but I think I've, you know,
come to learn that, um, you know, per
your observation, that some of the most
successful people that I work with or are,
that are around my community, uh, may not
have had that sort of college pedigree.
Um, so there's, you know, I, I at
the same time now realize and believe
that there's many paths to suc-
to success and, you know, the, the
college isn't the only indicator.
So I don't disqualify or
filter mo- only on that.
That said, I don't think
it's, um, not material.
Um, so I still, uh, value a tier one-
Right, right … you know, because,
uh, but I don't… It's not a binary
like therefore they're gonna succeed.
It's just one of, you know, 10
factors that I'm weighing in that
interview and that data evaluation.
Um, but why it's, I still think it matters
is because, I mean, how I describe it
to others is, um, uh, it probably means
you just got serious about your work
and life maybe a little bit earlier.
Sure.
You know, um, you studied harder a
little earlier or, um, and so I think
it, it, it short-circuits the path
to success and, uh, or at least,
uh, accelerates it by a few years.
Right.
Um, but people can catch up to you.
So, you know, whatever, um, extra gear
you had relative to other students
to study a little harder, longer,
um, you know, to kinda maintain that
lead, you kinda have to keep finding
or keep investing in advantages.
But, um, yeah, I think it's just like,
it's an accelerant, but it, it could
also, you know, you f- you can kinda erase
that lead very quickly without having to,
you know, gone to one of those colleges.
James Forrest: Do you hire
folks right out of school?
Chris Chuang: We do,
James Forrest: yeah.
Okay.
Do you, do you feel like there's a
pacing difference for, for a senior
that's coming out of college or out
of an MBA program or whatever it
might be, right into the work world?
Do you like, d- is there a s- learning
curve of like the pace is just different
in business world than it is in school?
Chris Chuang: Um, it varies.
I think, um, some come out
of very rigorous programs
where maybe our pace is less.
Right.
Uh, but others, um, you
know, it's different.
Uh, um, I would say, uh, my, my own
son, um- is experiencing the work world.
Uh, he's a, you know, this is his first
summer post, uh, freshman year, and
he's, you know, experiencing work work,
not just school work for the first time.
Oh, he's come back to me a few times
saying, "Hey, I'm really tired." Oh, okay.
It's really hard to be, like, right on
for the whole day- Yeah, yes … and
not, uh, have a couple breaks to
go play basketball or whatever.
Yeah.
And so, uh, yeah, I, I guess based
on his experience, I would say the
work world's probably a little bit
cresendo more in directs, but I guess
depending on your study and cropping.
James Forrest: Yeah.
I'm 47.
I remember that first couple months
of real work, like 8:00 to 5:00.
Yeah.
And I was like, "Wait a minute.
When, when do we get a break? When
do we get out for the summer?" Yeah.
I was like, "Nope. No spring break." Yeah.
Memorial Day.
Yeah.
Labor Day.
Chris Chuang: You know, it's not even
just, uh, the mental load, it's, uh, that
you have to be on socially too, right?
You're engaging others.
There's no quiet time in your
dorm room kind of thing, so.
James Forrest: So if I shadowed you for
a week magically, what would surprise me
about your leadership skills, your traits?
What do you do?
What you don't do?
Chris Chuang: Um, yeah, I guess, um First,
and again, I, I don't know if this is a
winning formula, but it's just my own.
Uh, you'll find me, um, in the trenches.
I, I like to roll up my sleeves.
I know there's lots of probably, you
know, good books that would say you
have to delegate and, you know, do
only what you can do and so forth.
But I just feel like, um, the best coaches
are also able to play a little bit still.
So every one of our leaders are,
are players, coaches, and that's an
intentional focus of our leadership model.
And, um, and so y-you'll find me in
that spreadsheet doing a PowerPoint.
Um, uh, recently we've been
hiring a bunch, as I mentioned.
I'm diving into LinkedIn Recruiter.
I'm, I'm prospecting
and finding candidates.
I think our recruiting team was a
little freaked out initially when
I started dump- diving into that.
Uh, but it's on me, um, you know,
trying to like look over their
shoulder by, by being in the trenches.
I'm really just wanting to be a
teammate, and I think they've come
to, uh, see that and, um, embrace it.
And, and then I learn from
like rolling up my sleeves.
Like I'll, I'll learn an aspect of
our business, uh, in a deeper way.
And then I'll usually pull out and I'll
go into some other trench, you know.
But I think week to week you would
find me, uh, doing work that might
be surprising, like might seem not
worth the, the, the CEO's time.
But I, I look at it quite differently
in that like all those moments help
me be a better leader, a better coach.
So, um, yeah, I'm tr- I'm constantly
trying to get on the court, if
you will, even if my team wants
to-- me to stay on the sidelines.
And, um, you know, and I think you win
a little bit of a respect from your
team when you can still, you know,
um, make a shot or two metaphorically.
And, you know, as, as you, as you might
recall from when I, when I coached,
uh, uh, Judah, like I, I will get
on the court with the boys and, uh,
and when I, when I make a good play,
like they-they're shocked the coach
can actually still do something.
You know, they, they, they might listen
to your coaching, uh, a little bit
more, and I think that's the same is
true probably in the business world.
Uh, uh, our CTO, uh, has
probably the lowest attrition
of any CTO in the Triangle.
Uh, engineers join us and never
leave and love working with him.
And yeah, he's a great
leader, everything aside.
Um, but I think part of why they
stay is because he might still
be able to compete as like the
best developer coder on the team.
And, uh, and so when he flexes
occasionally and writes something
himself, like I think there's like an
aha moment or a in awe of him moment.
And, and they, they keep, you
know, uh, revering him in a
positive way and admiring him.
And, and so then when he's leading,
you know, and just coaching, I think
they listen, uh, in a deeper way
and have been super loyal to him.
And so yeah, many examples of, uh,
where being a player and rolling
up your sleeves, doing it, it's
like, you know, less than expected
and your title ends up being That
make, helps you be more effective
in that big title job that you have
James Forrest: Chris, if the
titles disappeared, the headlines
disappear, the exits disappear, what,
what do you want to be known for?
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
Um, I w- would love in a, you
know, business context to be
known as a great teammate.
Um, you know, uh, willing to do anything
to serve my, my, uh, my fellow teammates.
So a servant leader.
E- if there's no title, I'd still
love, um, but I was still a leader.
I would wanna be known as a
servant leader, a great teammate.
Um, and then I, you know, for me
personally, um, I want people to
know that, uh, a big part of my
why is my faith and, and the role
that, uh, Christ plays in my life.
And, uh, so yeah, teammate,
servant leader, Christ-centered.
Um, and we didn't touch on this, but I
think, uh, one of the, the, the coolest
reflections of my whole journey that
we've been touching on a little bit
is, and maybe I'll, we'll get around
to writing the book someday, but, um,
like, uh, the Bandwidth through Relay
journey has been such a clear, um,
example for me of, uh, of God's hands
at the wheel because, um, there's been
so many s- strategies, like man's best
laid plans that I'm like, "This is it.
I know what we, we need to
do." And then, uh, and then
doesn't quite work out that way.
Um, and I'm not sure why, and I could
just be demoralized, but my faith anchors
me to believe that, um, you know, uh,
his desire and plans are for us to
prosper, and he's got something better.
And lo and behold, like a few
months, a few quarters later,
a better door has opened.
One really quick strike, like
ultra sharp eye is we're, uh,
raising our series A for Relay.
Uh, I had exactly the model, okay,
once we hit, uh, this level of ARR and
this growth rate, I'm gonna go out to
my former colleagues, you know, who
like were like my buddies from like the
Valley, who, uh, of course will, will
back this kind of financial story and this
picture and, and get our relationship.
So, you know, man's best laid
plans, and I go after that.
Um, and then right after we had a
successful first round of pitching,
the market just crashes, right?
Um, and this is sort of 2020,
2021 timeframe, and no one
was, no VC was writing a check.
They were all just retrenching.
Uh, my buddies were like, "I'm sorry.
Love the story.
Love you.
Can't bet, bet on anything right
now." And so, you know, um,
we were running out of money.
Like, you know, I mean, the Relay
story could have ended right there.
Uh, but again, for, for how
I've experienced it is, uh, God
opened, had a better door for us.
And, uh, so while that door closed when I
was chasing, uh, within three months, uh,
a different investor, uh, came, you know,
inbound out of kind of f- like manna from
heaven issue well, and, uh, believed in
us and, uh, and we ended up with better
terms than I had been negotiating, uh,
more, uh, culturally, uh, aligned partner.
And, and then since then
we've had tremendous success.
Um, I think we are literally one of the
fastest growing companies in Triangle And
so the door I was chasing, uh, would've,
might've led to a very different outcome.
Sure.
But, uh, but this door opened and,
and that, that story, uh, has just
repeated itself over and over and
over again, uh, for another day.
But like, you know, Bandwidth
didn't have a plan to go
public, you know, at the time.
That was another door that I think, uh,
got opened and, um, and, and it's become
a hugely successful public company.
So, um, someday we'll write that story-
Yeah … which is really God's story.
So I guess that's the other thing that
I would love to be known for, is someone
who, uh, as a teller of that story.
James Forrest: Thanks for sharing that.
Uh, let's do a speed round.
Yeah.
Uh, last few questions, all
in the basketball department.
Chris Chuang: Okay.
James Forrest: Favorite
basketball team of all time?
Chris Chuang: The Lakers.
James Forrest: Okay.
Any particular team?
Chris Chuang: Uh, the '80s Lakers.
The Magic Johnson.
Yep.
Great.
Or this… Yep, uh, maybe
the '84 crew specifically.
Okay.
Uh, Magic and the, the baby
Skyhook over McHale and Parish.
Uh, it's why I still shoot
a hook shot to this day.
James Forrest: Okay.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: That was g- Okay.
That's third team.
Favorite player of all time?
Chris Chuang: Magic.
Yeah.
James Forrest: Okay.
Chris Chuang: I'm, I'm
a point guard at heart.
Um, I was, even though I would
not look it right n- right now,
I was a center before I was
a point guard.
Magic was a center and a point guard.
Uh, yeah, I was a, I was like 5'7"
when I was in fifth grade and,
but, uh, you know, I thought I
was a big point guard like Magic.
James Forrest: I know I've told you
this, but I'll say it again, you know,
when you coached Judah and Mason's team,
and thank you for doing that, thank
you for investing in young men, um,
we called Mason the rebound monster.
Chris Chuang: Yes,
James Forrest: you're right.
Like because he would come… He was,
he was like an auto double double.
Yeah.
Like, like no big deal.
Like 15 rebounds a game, dude.
Chris Chuang: He, he was
big for his, his age too.
James Forrest: Favorite dunk of all time?
Chris Chuang: Vince Carter
jumping literally over some foot.
Frederic Weis in the, uh, I think it
was the, uh, Olympics or the Olympics.
James Forrest: That was a crazy dunk.
Yeah, my favorite Vince dunk is at the
dunk contest when he like broke through.
Yeah.
His first year.
Chris Chuang: Yeah.
James Forrest: That
in-game dunk was insane.
Chris Chuang: I mean, yeah, to
literally jump over a seven-foot
human being, it's crazy athleticism.
James Forrest: All right.
Favorite three-point shot?
Chris Chuang: Robert Horry.
Yeah.
Uh, against the Sacramento Kings.
The ball gets tipped
out at the game seven.
Yeah.
And Lakers won that series, yeah.
James Forrest: Awesome, man.
Hey, thank you for doing this.
I appreciate your friendship.
I appreciate what you do in the
marketplace professionally, appreciate
how you do it, and appreciate you
giving us a little bit of time.
I think there's a lot
of wisdom to come out of
Chris Chuang: this.
I hope someone gets some value from it.
It's a pleasure doing this with you.
Thank you, man.
Yeah.
James Forrest: Thank you for
listening to the C-Suite Exchange.
I'm extremely grateful
for business leaders.
If something from today's
conversation resonated with
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