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The “fire hose” of all podcasts produced by The Heartland Institute, a national free-market think tank.
Alright. We are live, ladies and gentlemen. Heartland's Socialism Research Center just released a new book, Socialism at a Glance. Socialism at a Glance attempts to fill an educational deficiency, providing a succinct summary of socialism's origins and rise in modern history while also giving detailed case studies of some of the most infamous socialist regimes that rose to power in the 20th century, including some that still exist to this day? Also, in is the political rhetoric in America getting more polarized?
Donald Kendal:Are the left getting further to the left and the right getting further to the right? Is this sustainable? Join us as we talk about all these topics and more on episode 443 of the in the tank podcast. Kendall. And joining me today, I do not have Jim Lakely.
Donald Kendal:He is in the background because he is too sick to be on screen. But I do have one of your favorites, Chris Talgo, editorial director here at the Heartland Institute. How are you doing today, Chris?
Chris Talgo:Well, Donnie, it would be nice if the sun actually made an appearance in Chicago because it's been, what now, 4 straight days of grayness and rain and snow. This is not good for my mental health. That's all I can
Donald Kendal:tell you. It's a great spring. It's a great spring. Yes. Also, a fan favorite, we have Linnea Lukin.
Donald Kendal:She is a research fellow with the Arthur b Robinson Center on Climate and Environmental Policy. How are you doing, Linnea?
Linnea Lueken:I'm doing much better. It is sunny and 65 degrees. A little windy. But, Chris, I I don't think I ever went through a spring in Chicago that wasn't precisely what you just just described there. Maybe sometimes a good couple inches of slush that's also gray on the ground.
Linnea Lueken:So, you know, there's that. At least it's not that bad.
Chris Talgo:The big problem for me this year, and Donnie, you can attest to this, is that we've had some really nice days in, like, late February. We had, like, a couple days in the seventies. So that just, like, got my entire, like, like, my my clock all messed up. And now it's, like, why is it so cold and gray all all the time?
Donald Kendal:But Yeah. Yeah. Flowers were sprouting. You know, trees were budding. And then yesterday, we got, like, 3 inches of snow.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. So, yeah, been a typical spring in the Chicagoland, but that's not what we're here to talk about. We've got a whole lot of stuff to talk about. I've got a bunch of topics packed in without, certain people, you know, doing certain types of gym rants. We might be able to get through a handful of topics.
Donald Kendal:I see Jim kinda smirking in the background, but that's alright. But, so Linnea Lukin, she's a staple on the climate realism show on Heartland's main YouTube channel, which, the show appears it's broadcast every Friday at noon CST on, YouTube, X, Rumble, Facebook, wherever you wanna catch it. And, Lene, you've been doing a lot of work on the Climate at a Glance project. We are currently preparing a series of videos on a whole variety of climate topics, very short videos that cover, topics, just kinda summarizing different topics, dispelling myths, what have you, but we also have a new climate at a glance app. So can you just tell us maybe about the app and, just the project in general?
Linnea Lueken:Yeah. Sure. So, we're doing a video series on almost every single topic that's covered on the Climate at a Glance app. We'd spent a very high speed couple of days filming all of the videos at once. So that was a pretty exhausting week for us, but, it went really well, I think, and I'm excited to see how the final project turns out.
Linnea Lueken:The app is basically the same content that we have on the website or, in the book. Although, we do have some new stuff from the website that didn't make it to the hard copy book. It's really, really a good fast reference, for those of you who like to screenshot graphics and spam them in the replies under some alarmists, comment. It's a terrific resource for that. Plus, it has all the genuine references.
Linnea Lueken:So, you know, when someone accuses you of doing that, you can pull the actual reference as well. So actually do the do your reading and everything, which is unheard of sometimes on certain corners of the Internet. So it's a really good reference. I highly recommend it. If anyone ever comes across any issues or anything, let us know with it so that we can fix them right away.
Linnea Lueken:We're really trying to make sure that this is a really good product. So, and it's free. So that's always fun and good. So please download it.
Donald Kendal:Right. And for those people that are watching, there's the little, cool little QR code thing on the side there, so you can just directly download it from there. Or if you are an audio only listener, I'm sure you can go to climate ataglance.com, and surely at the very top, you'll see a featured slide or whatever that, will direct you to where you can download the app. But, L'Naye, is there a particular climate or maybe even energy myth that, that's that's out there that just particularly puts you on tilt when you hear it? Just 1.
Donald Kendal:Just 1. Just 1. Your top one.
Linnea Lueken:That's really very difficult. I think the the most odious of them all is also, I think, the video that we're probably gonna release first, and that's the consensus narrative, because it's, patently nonsense to say that consensus should be the one and only thing that you depend. I'm gonna stop myself for a second. Sometimes, you know, just because there's a overwhelming consensus does not mean that they're correct. But other times, there actually isn't a consensus.
Linnea Lueken:And in this case, that's definitely true with the climate issue. That's not to say that just because something is generally agreed upon in scientific communities that it's wrong or that we should be automatically suspicious of it. But in terms of the climate argument, usually, it goes something like 97% of scientists agree that climate change is an existential threat. And when you actually dig into the polling, that's not really what people are saying when, you know, these organizations like the, American Meteorological Society, would say. Usually, it's something more like most scientists agree that the average Earth's temperature and average climate of the planet, is changing since the last ice age, which come as no surprise.
Linnea Lueken:And that human beings may have, different degrees of impact on that. And I think that that's relatively uncontroversial, but usually what happens is the alarmist take that and run with it and claim that what the agreement is is that there's this looming catastrophe. That if we don't give up eating meat and give up our cars and live in the darkness, like right now, that the planet is going to explode or something. And that's really not the true consensus.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. So it's not every week that we have a, an energy expert on with us. I'm gonna take this opportunity. I know this isn't in the show notes or anything like that just to pick your brain about a couple of things. So just recently, I was, for constant listeners, it shouldn't be a shock, that I'm super into the artificial intelligence concept, the the industry, the development of all of those things.
Donald Kendal:So recently, I was watching a podcast with Sam Altman, who's the CEO of, OpenAI, and he was talking about how in the future he foresees computing power being, like, the most valuable resource. And he says that depending on the price of that computing power, you know, we can achieve a, b, c, or d. And then the the interviewer asked them, well, what's what's, like, the defining things, factors that, that will determine what the cost of that computing power is. And in the short list, he said energy. So then the guy said, okay.
Donald Kendal:Well, what's your solution to that? And without hesitation, Sam Altman says nuclear power. Whether it's fission or fusion, like, that's that's the thing that he's pushing. And and Chris and I were just talking about this yesterday that there seems to be almost like a contradiction on the left where you've got, you know, the the vast majority of the left is pushing for wind and solar as the only options, for energy in the future. But then you've got the kind of the big tech left or at least that we generally put them in that category, like people like Sam Altman, that their whole industries run on energy.
Donald Kendal:They need cheap, reliable, mass amounts of energy. So what are your thoughts on the idea of, like, nuclear, whether it's fission or fusion for the future of our energy source?
Linnea Lueken:Right. Well, I like I mean, I've got nothing against nuclear whatsoever. I like the idea of the micro reactors that they have, nowadays are. I'll back up a second. The main opposition that I have seen sometimes they'll say that cost is a problem because the start up costs on nuclear are pretty high.
Linnea Lueken:But that's kind of a non issue when you're already spending like a bazillion dollars and throwing it at wind and solar and it's and it there's apparently no end to it. The an offshore wind is certainly very expensive as well, and they're doing it anyway. So, obviously, that's not a legitimate argument. What seems to me to be the largest issue is still that NIMBY issue or the, kind of this latent paranoia about nuclear energy that was born from people who witnessed 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl and stuff like that, or Fukushima more recently even though that didn't end up being nearly the catastrophe that it was kind of hyped to be. The the main issue is that people have a a terror of nuclear that is kind of outdated at this point because most nuclear power systems that go up nowadays are going to be ones that have, like, a safety built in.
Linnea Lueken:Like, they're not gonna melt down the way that old nuclear plants could melt down. They like turn themselves off instead of exploding, you know? So there really isn't that that safety issue, you know, and people will bring up disposal issues and that certainly is an issue, but that's more of an issue that government has created because they made it more complicated and more difficult, to store nuclear material. And there are some new technologies that are emerging that can kind of reuse some of that stuff anyway. I also, I think that one, you know, the cynical side of my brain says, well, the greens don't want nuclear because it would work.
Donald Kendal:Right. So that's
Linnea Lueken:what I think. That's that's that's probably one of the biggest ones. But also, I think that a lot of them are just, like, scared of of the technology and, they they associate it with being dirty because they see the big, cooling towers and stuff that are similar to the cooling towers that coal plants have. So there's a lot of kind of mythology around it, but the truth is nuclear makes would make up a fantastic base load. But it's not terrific at adapting quickly to changes in power demand.
Linnea Lueken:For instance, you know, if you had all of a sudden, like, this heat dome pop up very rapidly, and everyone switches on their air conditioners in an area. Nuclear can't necessarily be cranked up to accommodate that. So nuclear actually works best when it's paired up with something like coal or natural gas. So, you know, this isn't to say I'm I'm very skeptical that nuclear could make up the entire energy load.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. I just wonder, you know, after listening to Sam Altman talking about it, I'm just like, is there like a like, a weird partnership in the in the, like, the potential for a weird partnership between, like, kind of conservative energy, you know, wonks and stuff and, like, big tech? It's like, hey. You know, you can't just keep running to the left. They're just gonna keep trying to throw solar panels at you.
Donald Kendal:It's like, you know, we you might be able to get some people on the right to to propose nuclear. I just wonder if there's, like, an eventual team up.
Chris Talgo:I Well
Donald Kendal:that's inevitable.
Chris Talgo:Just just real quick. I I I think part of the reason why they are so not willing to give nuclear, a proper shot is because there's not oodles of money to be made in it. And, as we've seen, you know, it's I mean, Donnie, BlackRock, Larry Fink has said, you know, this would this is this energy transition on a worldwide level is gonna be a just 1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars. So I think one of the reasons why they are so insistent that we must get rid of fossil fuels and replace them with only solar and wind is because there is ample money to be made with government contracts, cronyism all throughout, you know, that that system. And look at the, the infrastructure law that, Joe Biden passed now 22 plus years ago.
Chris Talgo:They said that they would, have thousands and thousands of charging stations built by now. Guess how many they built? 7. So Yeah. I know.
Chris Talgo:I mean, it's just
Linnea Lueken:wind and solar to like the fast fashion industry. Wind and solar are fantastic if you wanna make a ton of money because they're relatively cheap to put up, especially with the government, subsidies and whatnot, and they break all the time. They do not last the amount of time that they're supposed to last. So there's a huge amount of money to make there. I mean, just look at the huge, solar farm that just got obliterated by a hailstone, by a hailstorm in Texas.
Linnea Lueken:It's, it is. It's it's very I I think it's very easy to compare it to fast fashion where the point is this thing breaks or it gets worn out early and you throw it away and you buy another one. It's not very sustainable, I don't think. No.
Donald Kendal:Definitely not. That's that's a topic
Chris Talgo:of a
Donald Kendal:whole another podcast. Yeah. But, but we should probably move on to our main topic. We do potentially, depending on how fast we move through these these next few topics, we might have another, climate change related thing towards the end of the show, but we will see. So another project of the Heartland Institute is the brand new release of Socialism at a glance.
Donald Kendal:As I mentioned at the front of the podcast, the book is the focal point of what I like to call in the office socialism classic. So under the socialism research center banner, we cover a lot of stuff of whole wide range of issues from digital currencies, ESG, the great resets. I don't know. You name it. And, they sure.
Donald Kendal:They all have a collectivist mindset, but it's still a wide range nonetheless. Socialism at a glance is socialism classic. The book is a short, concise it examines various aspects of the political ideology that is socialism. The book gets into socialism's origins and the rise of socialism in modern history. It provides detailed case studies of some of the most infamous socialist regimes, including the USSR, China, Cuba, North Korea, several other ones.
Donald Kendal:But, Chris, you were the, you you led the charge on on the creation of this book. So what was the original mindset for you at least behind the creation of socialism at a glance?
Chris Talgo:Great question. For me, the original intention, was to get something out into the, teaching atmosphere that is a truthful analysis of socialism, both historical perspective and, the ideology itself. I am a former social studies public high school teacher. I taught in the Chicago land area, and I taught in South Carolina for several years. I taught US history.
Chris Talgo:I taught, world history, and I taught American government. And I can tell you, with a straight face that the vast majority of my teaching colleagues, even in South Carolina, in a pretty conservative area of South Carolina, were preaching socialism and in their classrooms as as a great thing. It's just that it hasn't been implemented properly yet. One of the books that they, used over and over again was Howard Zinn's A Young People's History of the United States. Howard Zinn is an avowed socialist, and the entire book is through the perspective of a socialist mindset, class warfare, oppressor, oppressee, all that kind of stuff.
Chris Talgo:So when I was, you know, designing lessons and curricula with, you know, fellow teachers, I was just shocked at how little there was available for a, a truthful, presentation of socialism. We felt that there was a void in the market, so we thought that it would be a very good idea to produce something that is short to the point, understandable, very relatable. It is filled with original, sources and, you know, speeches and quotes from these people. This is not us, you know, commenting on socialism, like, at all. This is a impartial, a nonbiased, just fact based approach to socialism.
Chris Talgo:And, I think it would be a very valuable resource in schools across the country and also just in homes across the country for, you know, people to understand socialism. And, you know, one other quick thing, you know, polling shows that young Americans in particular have become infatuated with socialism. Some of them, 70% on on some, say that they will vote for a socialist. 50% plus have a positive view of socialism. And the reason why is because the public education system has been absolutely derelict in its duty of teaching properly socialism.
Chris Talgo:So, you know, if there's a giant void there, and we wanted to at least fill that void with something that is, easy for students to understand and tells the story of socialism, replete with many, many examples of, modern, socialist nations, including, present day China.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. I will say, you know, because I was also part of the whole production of all of this, and one of the things that we kept talking about throughout the production, the writing of the book was, like, let's make this as objective as possible. Right? Like Yes. Like, leave leave your biases at the door.
Donald Kendal:Like, let's just look at it, like, the just the kind of the, from, like, the the, not justifications for it, but what's, like, compelling people to look at this as a possible solution and where they're right about that and and where they're wrong and just kind of, like, the the black and white of the matter. So that's, hopefully is seen throughout the book. But, Chris, yeah, you mentioned the kind of the younger generations, and this is kind of geared towards the younger generations. We we almost had it as, like, a teachers and students kind of guide, but we kind of scrap that kind of at the last minute because we wanted this to kind of appeal to everybody.
Chris Talgo:Mhmm.
Donald Kendal:But if you look at this that we have on the screen, this is some polling, that was done somewhat recently. I don't know what the year is, but, exclusive poll, young Americans are embracing socialism. If you go down a little bit and show that chart, Jim, some of the findings are pretty pretty crazy. So it breaks it down from just kind of, like, your average citizens, versus your millennials and Gen z generations views on some of these questions. One of them being the top one being government should provide universal health care.
Donald Kendal:73% of the younger 2 generations are in favor of that. That's, 3 in 4, just about. Government should provide free college tuition. Almost 70% of millennials and gen z support that one. And then my favorite one, would you prefer to live in a socialist country?
Donald Kendal:Just about 50%. We'll round up 49.6%. 50%, half of Gen z slash millennials say that they would prefer to live in a socialist country. So, Lene, I wanna go to you on this. What what's what's your perspective on all of this, whether it's just socialism in general or the younger generations seemingly embracing of that ideology?
Linnea Lueken:I'm a little bit skeptical about this poll just based on interactions that I have with a lot of, Gen Zers out in the wild and also online. Of course, my online activity is gonna be filtered somewhat by the kind of people that I like to talk to, and so it's going to lean more conservative. But I'd I'd like to see the the polling, like, the database that they used for this and the methodology because if this is the exact wording that they use, then that's sort of alarming. But a lot of the times on these kinds of polls, they use wording that's a little bit opaque to most people. So I'd be curious.
Linnea Lueken:But, in general, it doesn't come as a huge surprise to me, because like Chris said, the, like, public education in this school is is highly you know, it highly favors socialism and socialist. When I was in school, when, a teacher would give an example of, like, a socialist country, they would, give the example of Sweden or something.
Donald Kendal:Exactly.
Linnea Lueken:Which of course we don't know. So so, you know, they're not using like Venezuela or whatever as an example for this. So I think people's ideas are probably quite a bit skewed. It's, yeah. There's a lot to say about why Sweden is the way it is.
Linnea Lueken:But Well,
Donald Kendal:that okay. So that that I think is a very interesting point. The idea that, you know, and I would I would bet I would love a follow-up question. Those 50% of Gen z is like, all right, well, which socialist country? Right?
Donald Kendal:And I guarantee they're not saying China. They're not saying I wish I could go back to the the Soviet Union or something like that. Surely their answer would be like, I don't know, Sweden? That that seems pretty good. Yeah.
Linnea Lueken:I mean, there's there's, like, a handful of, like, legitimate tankies out there, but I don't think that most of them fall under that category.
Donald Kendal:Right. Right. And then those people on that side, you know, the left will accuse us of being like, well, when they say socialist, they don't actually mean what real socialism is. They mean Venezuela. So there almost seems to be this, like, divide in how we define the term socialism or define the the, ideology of socialism.
Donald Kendal:And, again, I think that's kind of what we are trying to dispel. We're trying to give like a concrete definition of socialism, what it is, what it means for a country in the book Socialism at a Glance. But what it definitely is not is, a government program. It's like, you know, you see the comments and stuff online of people being like, oh, you don't like socialism? Well, then you better not allow, allow the snowplow to get the snow off of your road or something like that as if that is what socialism is, which is ridiculous.
Donald Kendal:Right? Like even even if you take it to like a larger degree, socialism is not a a free market economy with government programs, even big government programs. That's not socialism.
Linnea Lueken:Even even something as big as like universal health care or something.
Donald Kendal:Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah, I mean they are, you know, Sweden, is basically a market economy with some large government programs. And then they have to pay for those large government programs with massive taxes.
Donald Kendal:But that's not socialism.
Chris Talgo:Yeah. But not even but but but the difference in Sweden is that, it's a it's a relatively flat tax that all the people pay. It's not a progressive tax like we have here in the United States. So when I when I talk to people about the Nordic, the myth of Nordic socialism, and you start to point these things out where in the United States, 1 the top 1% and the top 10% pay, like, 90 something percent of all taxes, and the bottom 50% actually get a huge, check from the government even if they don't work. And then you you explain.
Chris Talgo:But in in Sweden and in Norway, actually, everyone works and everyone pays a high tax rate because they've first of all, because it's very homogeneous. It's a it's it's a it's culturally homogeneous. They've all, you know, basically agreed upon that, you know, that kind of a lifestyle. Here in the United States, we were not founded on those principles. We were founded on, meritocracy.
Chris Talgo:We were founded on if you go work hard, you could start a business. You can do whatever you wanna do. Europe is coming from a very different historical perspective. They were very hierarchical, monarch monarchial in many senses. So they had that that sort of that, almost like caste system in place.
Chris Talgo:So but the United States has never had that, and they what they wanna do is they want to, revise history to say that, actually, the United States has has had all these, pseudo socialist, types of programs in place. And if we were just implement them in full, then we will achieve it. That is not true. That is not true whatsoever. So, you know, there's there's another aspect of it that, you think we have to touch upon, and that is that, we we we go through the communist manifesto, which is the bible of socialism.
Chris Talgo:And we also talk about how every single socialist nation in history has bought into the, the the this this notion that you have to change humanity. You actually have to you actually actually change the human mindset to make socialism compatible with, the the populace. And that that that is a core element, core tenet of socialism, is that you have to remake humanity. In the Soviet Union, they called it the new man and the new woman because you have to actually disavow, things that are so so, you know, important, to to human beings, whether it's personal freedom, the ability to own private property, all of those things, general fairness. Socialism throws all that on its head, and it just says, okay.
Chris Talgo:The people in power, they get to make all the decisions, and everyone else is at the bottom of society has to live by the dictates of the people at the very top who actually do not live the socialist, life style that they have been preaching, to the masses.
Donald Kendal:Right. Right. Yeah. It's, it's this idea that it runs counter to human nature to if I work harder, but I don't get any more reward, then why would I work harder? Right?
Donald Kendal:And so like these these socialist regimes throughout history recognize that and have to instead of incentivizing people to work harder, they have to be compelled to work harder. And a lot of that comes with force. A lot of regimes resorted to that, but a lot of it comes to some weird coercion and manipulation. You mentioned, like, the Soviet new man and, like, the a lot of psychology kind of stems from this search of how to compel people to do what's good for the collective and not necessarily for themselves, which is a fascinating topic that, you know, we A lot of that.
Chris Talgo:A lot of that starts in in in the education system in these countries, and we we we we we highlight that how in Nazi Germany, which was National Socialist, it was not, a far right, government by any sense of the word. That is just a complete and utter myth too, just like Nordic socialism. In, in Germany in no Nazi Germany, in the Soviet Union, in present day China, in Cuba, Venezuela, the North Korea. What they do is they take the the young students and they brainwash them, and they brainwash them to become loyal socialists. And that is, you know, a a very potent way of, you know, making the the the the population, you know, a seed to the wants and desires of those in power.
Chris Talgo:And one of the one of the other reasons why we wrote this book is because that is happening in America. Mhmm. And one of the reasons, you know, not to get too off subject here that that's happening is teacher colleges. And I went through a very, you know, a a a a high ranking teacher college in the Chicagoland area in the early 2000 while I was pursuing my master's degree, I was completely shocked at the socialist indoctrination that they were, you know, bringing into the teacher colleges. And this has been going on for decades.
Chris Talgo:And I was not alone. Many of the the, colleagues in in my cohort, we were all like, wow. What is going on? Like but but the problem was you had to kinda go along and get along because if you actually said, hey. Wait a second.
Chris Talgo:I don't agree with this. This is this is not right. You wouldn't graduate the program. You wouldn't be employed. So I think many of them actually as the program went on because it was a 3 year program, they just became more and more willing to accept it.
Chris Talgo:Some of us, we we maintained our, you know, independent thought, but that's why I think when I actually got to the to the high schools that I was teaching at in both Illinois and in South Carolina, it was just the the norm that the social studies department, the English department in particular, were full of socialist, you know, ideologues. It is just that is a fundamental, like, fact. You I mean, I I'm telling you, I've I've experienced this in, you know, dozens and dozens of, classrooms when I was doing my student teaching, my observing, and my actual teaching. I mean, that that is the norm. The norm is that these students are being groomed to, to accept socialism as the as the future, and that is why those polls are showing that that it is becoming so popular among them.
Chris Talgo:And why this matters is because these are our future leaders. These are our future business leaders. These are future political leaders. These are our future social and societal leaders. We do not want them to have this, you know, this this this terrible, you know, misguided, message that, hey.
Chris Talgo:Socialism is great. It just hasn't been implemented properly yet. But in the United States, we have the resources. We have the means. We can do it.
Chris Talgo:We have to push back against that message.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. And it's weird because kind of the push for socialism has its ebbs and flows. Right? I remember when Bernie Sanders was kinda getting out onto the national attention for, like, the first time. I think that was maybe in 20 16, 2015, lead up to the 2016 election, something around right around that time.
Donald Kendal:And I remember when people were, like, supporting him, you know, like, his democratic socialism. I was, like, shocked. I was, like, really people? Like, we're going back to socialism? I I didn't realize that.
Donald Kendal:And then that lasted for a little bit, kind of a while. And then, you know, when he took a big fall in 2019, it was like, alright. Socialism seems to be over, you know, but, like, surely, it's just a matter of time before it really reemerges. And we've got, like, all of these different headwinds that we're going up against because you've got the captured education system. You've got the, you know, general liberal mainstream media.
Donald Kendal:You've got all these other captured institutions, and all of it is masked not as, like, you know, like, what we recognize socialism as is, like, these people that are just vying for control over society. If I had my hands on the control, then everything would be utopian like that. But, like, below that, like, a a level below that that captures the attention of the younger generation. And and, you know, if you disagree with this, let me know. But to me, it it all seems like it's justified under this, like, feeling of empathy.
Donald Kendal:Right? Like, we need to care for our fellow citizens. You know? Like, I'm my brother's keeper or whatever. So we have to make sure that we're all just helping everybody, and socialism is the best way to do that.
Donald Kendal:Capitalism is leaving them in the gutter, and socialism is the way to do it. You I feel like that's the mindset.
Chris Talgo:Right? I I I agree with you that there's a sense of noblesse oblige to this that they think, oh, these people are just, you know, not capable of actually, like, you know, organizing themselves and and and and governing themselves. So, therefore, it is better if we do it for them. But just a couple of quick points. The young Democrats, Socialists of America, their membership base is growing by leaps and bounds.
Chris Talgo:So trust me, socialism is not going anywhere, especially among the youth. Another reason why I think the youth are more open to socialism is because we don't actually, live in a free market economy. And for most of young Americans, they have had a really bad experience with, quote, unquote, free market capitalism because we live in a crony capitalist America. And when you look at 2,008 when the big banks got bailed out and all that kind of stuff and what's happening now with all this inflation and just all this funny money creation and all that, that's why I think so many young Americans are saying, man, capitalism sucks. I can't get I can't buy a house.
Chris Talgo:Man, it's everything is so expensive. It's it's all the greedy, you know, capitalists. That is so far from the truth. The truth is that actually the the the big government programs and the the the stupid energy policies are what's driving lots of this. So Bernie Sanders, I think he's actually hitting upon a a segment of the population that is extremely frustrated with the status quo.
Chris Talgo:And it's funny because Donald Trump had that same message in 2016 and is doing it again in 2024 saying the game is rigged. The the, you know, the the the big corporations, you know, they they run things. They're in collusion with the government, and it's not an actual free market system. So I think we're we're we're we can't say, oh, socialism is terrible, but the way things are is great because, no, we aren't living in a in a in a, you know, robust free market economy right now. And that's why I I I I hope that we return to that because if we return to that and then these these young people say, wow.
Chris Talgo:Look at all the opportunities that are abounding because of, you know, free market capitalism and low tax rates, so low low regulations, you know, just, you know, all that good stuff that they would probably actually change their mind. But they have this very warped sense of both socialism and capitalism
Donald Kendal:Mhmm.
Chris Talgo:Which is, like, just making this, you know, the this this poisonous mixture where they're, like, desperate and saying, well, you know what? If the government's just gonna provide me everything, yeah, that kinda just sounds good on its face. Obviously, they're not digging deeper into that.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. Lenea, I mean, Bernie Sanders, I I think he did have a way of kind of tapping into a lot of the things that Chris is talking about. Chris, I completely agree with basically everything that you said there. The problem, though, with the modern socialist move movement is that Bernie Sanders is, like, 85 years old and looks like the high sparrow from Game of Thrones. Right?
Donald Kendal:So my fear is that we are, like, one charismatic, younger, fresh, politician that embraces socialism away from, like, a major resurgence in in the push for for this ideology. Are you as concerned about that as I am?
Linnea Lueken:I'd argue it's already too late. It's already happened. The the main Democrat party basically has adopted all these principles into their platform already. So that ship sailed, I think. You know, they're already all on board with it.
Linnea Lueken:There's no with with very few exceptions, there are no, like, free market blue dog Democrats left. They're all pretty darn far left at this point. It was one of the things that drove me nuts when I was in college was all these, older conservatives, especially of the, like, baby boomer generation who would look at my peers who were, nuts. And they would say, well, you know, don't worry about that because when they get out of college and get into into the real world, they're gonna abandon all that loony stuff and they're gonna get a job and 2.5 kids and a house and blah blah blah. Well, guess what happened?
Linnea Lueken:They all went into government and and, and they're running or, like, HR departments of major corporations. And they kept all of those loony beliefs. They did not get punched in the face by reality because reality is catering to them at this point.
Donald Kendal:Sure.
Linnea Lueken:The systems are catering to that ideology. So, no. That's it's it's seriously an uphill battle at this point for us. Sorry to drop a little bit of a black pill on that one, but that's it's it's a major problem. And, I'm not sure how you know, I don't really have a solution for that other than I don't know.
Linnea Lueken:But making it, like, socially intolerable to be one of those crazy people, but, don't know how that happens in the current system. So I don't know.
Donald Kendal:Well, Jim is in the background giving a prediction that AOC will be the Democratic presidential candidate as soon as she is old enough. So I'm very curious in the comments for everyone that is watching this, whether or not you agree with Jim's prediction in the background. He is, too sick to be on screen, but not sick enough to give predictions, based on our podcast content here. So very curious if you agree with Jim. Will AOC inevitably be a candidate, presidential candidate for the Democratic party moving forward?
Donald Kendal:One other thing that I wanna, touch on on this topic of the Socialism at a Glance book is the kind of, maybe it's a acknowledgment of some of the things that we're saying, and that is a push in the state of Florida to create curriculum standards around the idea of teaching students in the public school system about the realities, I'll say, of socialism and communism. So, Chris, I mean, government mandates, the mandating curriculum. I I feel like there's libertarians out there that would, you know, be a stick in the mud when it comes to this. What do you think about this proposal?
Chris Talgo:Generally, I'm against government mandates, but seeing as how I know how the education system works, these states produce what are called standards. And, then at the local level, each and every district has to abide by those standards. And, you know, when I was teaching, US history in particular, I mean, they lay out you have to you have to talk about all of these things, and you have to do it in this in this way so that they, you know, they literally say the students must understand blah blah blah blah blah. And those standards are very, leftist. They've been they've been just, you know, taken over by, you know, left leftist ideologues, and it is definitely necessary to get some pushback in the, the public education system.
Chris Talgo:And if it does mean passing a law where it says, hey. You gotta spend, you know, at least a little bit of time talking about, you know, communism and socialism. That to me is a good thing, but here's the problem with it. Because I taught in South Carolina, and we had, at the time, we had 1 I think it was a 1 hour 1 hour, on constitution day where we had to talk about the constitution and such. And I would, you know, listen to some of the other teachers in my department, and they would say, fine.
Chris Talgo:Yeah. I'll do it, but I'm just gonna bad mouth the constitution. I'm just, you know, like, I'll do it, but I'm I'm I'm not gonna actually, you know, do it in good faith. And no one's there. No one's no one's watching.
Chris Talgo:No one's, you know, sitting there documenting what's what's actually going on. Yeah. I know this is totally out of, you know, left field here, but one, one thing that I think could actually be a potential solution is putting cameras in the classroom. Public schools, I think, should have cameras in the classroom so that the the, so that the parents in particular can watch and see, wow. That's that's what's being taught to my kids?
Chris Talgo:Like, I had no clue. Because during the pandemic when everything went online, I was still in contact with many of my teacher friends and, you know, they were just like, oh my gosh. Like, parents are, like, contacting me. Like, this is so annoying. It's and I kind of was like, actually, that's the way it should be.
Chris Talgo:You should not have just utter monopolistic control over your students' minds where you wanna shape them the way that you wanna shape them, which is basically what they told me was their objective to make them great little social justice, you know, warriors. And, you know, when the parents actually found out about some of this stuff, they were really, really, you know, frustrated. But then again, you know, it's it's so difficult for them to really understand and know what's going on in the classroom. So I think, you know, something like this would help, but I think more importantly, just having, you know, transparency in the classroom would be a humongous help.
Donald Kendal:Jim in the background. The the don't say che bill. Oh, Jim.
Chris Talgo:You're in a good
Donald Kendal:bad way.
Chris Talgo:That's good.
Donald Kendal:That is some good
Linnea Lueken:stuff right there.
Chris Talgo:Yeah.
Donald Kendal:That is good. Lene, any thoughts on this idea of having a a bill mandating some sort of, socialism and communism realism curriculum in the state of in Florida? And hopefully, maybe well, no. Actually, go ahead. What's your opinion
Linnea Lueken:on it? I I I think if it is written well, then it's good. If it's not, then it's just a waste of everybody's time. I haven't looked into it too closely yet. I I agree with Chris that there's a high likelihood that teachers will say, okay.
Linnea Lueken:We'll talk about communism, and then they'll go on for some of them will go on for however long. If you get if you have some kind of a communist in the classroom, they're gonna take that hour to to spend it talking about how the cool eggs deserved what they got, you know, like something demented like that. I, so I don't know if it will help without also implementing something that Chris like the way that Chris, said that maybe cameras in the classroom might be a solution to that. It kinda seems this kind of this if it can be actually, like, implemented and enforced, but I'm not confident that it can be with the way the public schools are.
Donald Kendal:Yep. So I I think, Chris told me this yesterday that, this bill passed the, the the house and senate in Florida, and it's basically just being, just waited on by Florida governor Ron DeSantis to sign it into law. So we're gonna be keeping an eye on that, see what happens, and see maybe if any, see if any other states follow suit. But guess what? We got a great resource for those, schools if they if they want to teach it in a holistic way, and that is socialism at a glance now available.
Donald Kendal:You can go to heartland.org. There's a big featured slide right there at the top. Click on it. Buy your own copy of the book. Go to Amazon.
Donald Kendal:Just look up socialism at a glance. Buy a copy there. Leave a review. All of those things will help it tick up that, list of books that are under these certain categories. It'll help sell more of these books.
Chris Talgo:So Johnny, one last very brief comment. Do not underestimate the power of the teachers' unions in pushing these socialist agenda because they are playing a vital role behind the scenes in doing this. And if you look at some of the documents that they produce, they are out and out socialist. Right. Right.
Chris Talgo:Right. Right.
Donald Kendal:No doubt. Alright. So Socialism at a Glance. Remember that book, ladies and gentlemen. Alright.
Donald Kendal:Let's move on. Let's move on to, this is the topic of polarization in America, and this topic kinda stemmed from a couple of recent stories that we've covered on the podcast, over the past few weeks. One of them was the one of the stories was the the revolt at, MSNBC over the momentary hiring of a Republican as a political commentator, and this was literally too much for the hacks at MSNBC to handle. So instead of allowing some diversity of opinion, they just fired the Republican. There was there any self awareness or outrage from the left on this story?
Donald Kendal:None that I saw. A week prior to that, we talked about the manufactured outrage over Donald Trump's use of the scary sounding term bloodbath when he was talking about the how the Chinese are planning to undercut our auto industry by building electric vehicles in Mexico and just driving across the border. Most of the left, especially those hacks at MSNBC, went insane over this. They said that Trump was threatening to kill his political opponents. They were comparing him to Hitler, you know, very level headed stuff.
Donald Kendal:And, now there was a little self awareness on this one. I saw that socialist, Cenk Uygur from the Young Turks, tweeted, guys, you know, that's not what he said. Right? But even that little island of sane sanity was met with just massive waves of vitriol from his followers on Twitter. So this led me to think again.
Donald Kendal:This is the topic that we've talked about on this podcast before. Are we, like, irreparably polarized as a country? And there is a couple of charts that show this. I should have sent you a link, Jim, but if you have them, alright. Here's here's a good one.
Donald Kendal:Show the show the first graph on this. This is talking about polarization in the country, and this chart right here kinda shows the party that's in power shows that the the little was that the y axis has all the different presidents over the past however many decades, and it shows the the party that's in power's approval of that president and the opposing party's approval of that president. And you see as it gets closer to modern times, that gap in between approval ratings is steadily increasing to the point now of Joe Biden where you've got, the Republicans are approving Joe Biden's work at leading the country at 6% compared to the Democrats' approval rating at 83%. So that's quite a divide there. I've got a couple of other studies here.
Donald Kendal:One of them is called AIMS. It's like the American National Election Studies Organization, and they have a chart that shows a very similar thing, the effective polarization of parties, the own party, and the rival party's feelings. So it it asks them what you think about your party, what you think about the opposition's party, and this goes back what what does that go back to? Like, the early nineties. And, again, a steady just divide between the two to right now where it's, like, the largest divide that it's ever been.
Donald Kendal:There's a couple of other charts. I I don't think I put it in the show notes that show very similar things, about, oh, yeah. One of them I don't I don't have this, so don't look for it, Jim. But one of them was, what you classify yourself as. You classify yourself as a moderate, a partisan, or a strong partisan.
Donald Kendal:And the people that are self reporting themselves as strong partisan is the highest that it's ever been, and that one, that particular study goes back to, like, the early eighties. So Pew Research, they did another one that showed, like, a time lapse of, like, these little arcs that showed, you know, people that consider themselves, like, Democrats or Republicans. And over time, those arcs separate showing like a kind of a the left kind of sliding further to the left and the right sliding further to the right. So there is plenty of data to back this up, in addition to just kind of the anecdotal stuff that you'll see in the media and maybe even your personal life, but there is data to back it up. So, Linnea, I want your take on this first.
Donald Kendal:What are your thoughts of just this general idea of polarization, in the American discourse?
Linnea Lueken:1st, I do think that the majority of this is the media's fault. I was over at a relative's house when that, story broke with the bloodbath thing. And it's such a mild, like normal comment to make, you know, like, Oh, our economy, it's going to be a bloodbath one. And I, and I was over at a relative's house who are quite far to the left and they were watching MSNBC or they were watching I don't know what channel she's on actually. They were watching Jen Psaki's show.
Linnea Lueken:I didn't even know she had a show, but I guess she has a show. And, she plays like yeah. Actually, she didn't even play a clip of Trump saying it. She just repeated over and over and over again that he had said, that, you know, there was gonna be a bloodbath if he doesn't win. And he was, you know and they're and they immediately launched into talking about January 6th.
Linnea Lueken:So you can see the narrative that they're constructing with it. And I and I was just like, my stomach churned because I thought, okay. This is so like, my relatives, I don't believe that they believe that I'm like a lunatic, you know, terrorist or something for being right wing. But I have absolutely no doubt that they think that about pretty much every other Republican who ever existed. Right?
Donald Kendal:Like,
Linnea Lueken:at this point, because of the way that the media frames things. And this is it's kind of it it kinda goes back to some of the socialism and some of the, disrespect of our, national founding and stuff. But there was a political reporter political reporter on, again, MSNBC, I think, like, last week that said that, like, believing that your rights are not given to you by the government, like literally the first line, the declaration of independence is a Christian nationalist belief.
Donald Kendal:Of course it is.
Linnea Lueken:So, you know, thinking deeper than that, then the, like, knee jerk initial reaction that we have to a statement like that. What does this mean when she says that with a straight face? Is she stupid? I I think she's probably pretty poorly educated in civics, but I don't think that she's probably stupid. I think this speaks to something a lot deeper.
Linnea Lueken:And I've I've heard it explained this way that, you know, we've we have a population now where a good number of the people have convinced themselves that, the definition of woman is not what it has been for all of time. And so how can some how can people who think that way be expected to maintain, you know, 17 70 six's definition of what, like, shall not be infringed means. Right? So there is a there is a fundamental disconnect. And when that happens, then this, this statement that's kind of heretical to say in libertarian and conservative, circles becomes true.
Linnea Lueken:And that is that, you know, the constitution is just a piece of paper for for, like, 50% of the country. You know? If you don't have that foundational set of beliefs that are that that document was based on, then you're not going to respect what's written in it. You're going to work very hard to unwind it. And I think that's a major part of why it feels or why it is that we are so disconnected right now is that there is a huge change that's gradually occurred in this country in terms of, like, foundational beliefs, and that undermines, like, everything.
Donald Kendal:Yeah. You know, this this kind of for me, especially listening to some of the things you're saying, reminds me of conversations that I have with Chris all the time in the office, about the media and the the way that things are portrayed and all of that in the media. And we always talk about how it seems like the kind of the cable news left and the cable news right are, like, increasingly living in different universes. And, we had Larry Schweickart, at an event just last night at the Heartland Institute headquarters talking about his newest book. And at one point during the book, he was talking about this this kind of, like, gap in perceptions between, like, the left and the right, and the example that he used was kind of like crime in the country.
Donald Kendal:And he was saying that, like, you know, the right is is looking at, like, the cities and all of this stuff and the rampant crime and people just retail theft, just walking out of stores with grocery carts full of stuff and you name it, carjackings through the roof, all of that sort of stuff. Whereas the left are getting, like, fed these lines. They're, like, actually, crime's going down. And it's, like, how do we even, like, come to anywhere close to a consensus on how to move forward as a country if you're having those 2 stark black and white opinions on either side of the political debate? Like, you can't.
Donald Kendal:And and I feel like that's, like, time and time again. We've got, like, you turn on Fox News, and they're like, you know, super concerned about the border crisis, all these people pouring over the border, you know, all of the stuff, and then you turn on MSNBC to get their viewpoint of that that that issue. They're not talking about that issue at all. They're talking about January 6th because that's the most important thing that's ever happened in this country. And it's like like, are we even living in the same universe at this point?
Linnea Lueken:Yeah. I saw there was someone who's just like a normal kinda, like, sports guy, just an average person on Twitter posting. He post a list of, like, the most, like, terrifying moments in his life that he has witnessed. And he ranks January 6th above, like, the Challenger explosion
Donald Kendal:Of course.
Linnea Lueken:As in terms of natural national tragedies. Like, they are on a different planet at this point. And if you talk to someone like that face to face, I'm sure that they're, like, totally normal, you know, until that kind of a subject comes up. And then all of a sudden you realize, wow, I am not even in the same plane of existence with this person anymore if you think that that was worse than, you know, any number of other tragedies.
Donald Kendal:Donnie, one of one of my favorite polls sorry, Chris, but this just came to mind. But one of the favorite polls that we ever did with Rasmussen, and I don't have this in the show notes either, but just came to my head, was when we were trying to gauge the kind of the perceptions of reality and then comparing that to the media that these people, that these people watch or whatever. And we found just time and time again on issue after issue that, like, people that consume mostly their news through, like, CNN or MSNBC We're just having, like, wildly inaccurate, perceptions of reality when it comes to, like, police and unarmed shootings, like, by police officers or the amount of time that the world has left because of the threat of climate change or, like, a handful of other ones. And, like, there were stark differences between the left and the right. But sorry.
Donald Kendal:Go ahead, Chris.
Chris Talgo:Yeah. When you put that first graphic up and and you you saw those trend lines really start to diverge in the, mid 2000, that just so happens to be when social media, you know, really hit the hit the scene. I think a lot of this is driven by that because what what happens is people, get their news from social media, and it's all about algorithms, and it's all about getting them to keep watching the social media platform. So it's not about actually informing the American people like it was back in, you know, the the quaint old days of, you know, the 19 sixties, seventies, and eighties even when most people got their news from, you know, like, network TV. Yes.
Chris Talgo:It was a little bit biased to the left, but by and large, it was generally trying to appeal to all Americans. Exactly. So then, therefore, they had to kinda give you both sides of the store. I'm not saying that it was right down the middle at all. You know, even in the 19 eighties, you know, Sam Donaldson, you know, the way he treated Ronald Reagan was just, you know, pathetic.
Chris Talgo:But, I mean, it pales in comparison to nowadays where, most of the mainstream media actually has a an agenda. But I think that's only part of it because I think that, most, well, I know that most people get their news from social media, and social media is not a reputable news source. You don't you know? I mean, even in my own family, I've got, you know, family members who, like, they'll just say, I saw this on Facebook. It's it's true.
Chris Talgo:It's like, no. It's not. What are you talking about? But they have just become so used to receiving, you know, news from those kinds of sources, which are not actual sources of, you know, like, factual news, that then they, you know, just be become, you know, more more to the left or more to the right. So I think that that's a big, big, big part of this.
Donald Kendal:No. I actually think that is an incredibly large part of this and increasingly, what, just an Internet, social media for sure, but, the content that is being delivered to you is algorithmically, derived. So if it sees that you are, you know, socialist left, like it's gonna be feeding stories that they know socialist left people wanna see because it's all about attention economy, and it's trying to keep you on the platform like that. And they're not gonna keep you on the platform if they're just, like, you know, showing you some right wing extremist stuff. You're gonna get frustrated and leave.
Donald Kendal:Right? So it's like creating these massive echo chambers, that have probably not seen on Earth until the advent of these social media and especially these, like, powerful algorithms. And that, again, that's seen in your Google News Feed. That's seen on your Facebook timeline. That's seen on, recommended posts on on, x or Twitter, recommended videos on TikTok or YouTube or any number of those things.
Donald Kendal:It's just driving this. Like, if you're not even seeing what the other side of the aisle is talking about, then how do you even know, like, where they're coming from or how to even fight back against their arguments or anything? And I will say, you know, while I'm saying that, it seems like it's a left and right thing, and it is for sure it is. But I also think that it's, like, very much affects the left more because for the right, we don't have the privilege of existing solely in an echo chamber because of, like, the mass media. And if you just watch TV or movies, like, you get a baseline of just, like, anti Trump stuff at the very least.
Linnea Lueken:And and, Donnie, and it's been proven in polls too. Leftists and right wingers have been pulled on, like, describe your opponent's perspectives from their point of view. And time and again, the right is able to articulate with detail what the left believes accurately, but the left is unable to do that for the right wing.
Donald Kendal:Exactly.
Linnea Lueken:And it's it's very strange. And I think you've touched on the reason why it is that way. It's because the general culture is to the left. So they're not getting, like, act like, exposed by osmosis to those ideas from the right. They think that, like, Fox News is far right, which is laughable at this point in time.
Linnea Lueken:I get it. So it's yeah.
Donald Kendal:You've never had the unfortunate, pleasure of going on to, like, Reddit, which is just an absolute cesspool. It's like you read some of these, like, these posts, and it's like, have you ever met a Republican, like, in real life? Have you ever actually met a republican or somebody that's conservative? Because I don't think you have. Chris, we're at an hour, so I'll give you final thoughts on any of the topics, that we've talked about so far.
Chris Talgo:Yeah. You mentioned, you know, Larry Shveichert's parents, here at the Harlan Institute last night, and he wrote a new book, and it's called, globalism. It's called the the rise and fall. And he was making the argument that globalism is in decline. And I wish I would have asked him this question during the q and a session.
Chris Talgo:How technology is going to, play into that? Because I think that technology, whether it's AI, quantum computing, algorithms, just like all this stuff, is actually gonna make it even easier for people who want to implement global control over the masses to do it. And I think that what we're seeing here in the United States is almost like a test run of sorts to that, where they are just, you know, inundating people with social media messages. And we've seen now that there is a direct relationship between the US government and social media platforms to say, this is the narrative we want to put forward. Therefore, you're gonna put it forward or we're gonna make your life very difficult.
Chris Talgo:And whether it was the pandemic or the 2020 election or just, you know, time after time, they're able to use their, you know, technological, monopoly to their advantage. And I think that's just yet another reason why people are just going more and more into their separate corners because I think that many people on the on the right side of the spectrum say, jeez. We feel like we're under siege these days. It's like it's just it's coming at us from all angles.
Donald Kendal:Right.
Chris Talgo:And then I think that also emboldens the people in the left to say, man, we're making a lot of, you know, progress here. Let's just keep going with this, and then it's just gonna make them do it more and more and more. So we're kind of in a, vicious, cycle of sorts.
Donald Kendal:Oh, yeah. Yeah. That that, you know you know me, Chris. I mean, that is right up my alley, and, I do wanna do an episode, like, a full episode dedicated to the idea of, like, digital dictatorships. Yes.
Donald Kendal:But that's that's for a future episode. Linea, any last words? Anything you wanna get off your chest before we wrap up the show?
Linnea Lueken:Nope. I think we covered it all really well.
Donald Kendal:Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Thank you for being on, by the way. And I wanna thank everyone Stephanie.
Donald Kendal:For joining us for this episode of the In The Tank podcast. Join us every week for a new episode. If, if you're listening to this, you're probably catching it on a Friday or later. And if you are an audio only listener, leave a review for us on Itunes, that'd be greatly appreciated. Also, you could join us live where we are streaming this on Facebook and YouTube and x and Rumble.
Donald Kendal:And you can join the conversation, throw your comments and questions on the screen, in the chat. Maybe we'll show your comments on the screen, maybe we'll address your questions on the fly. You can support the show by, doing a whole bunch of different things. We have that super chat functionality enabled if you wanna support the show that way. Or if you want to just spend a couple of seconds, you can just share this video, subscribe if you haven't already, hit that like button, or, leave a comment on the video.
Donald Kendal:All those things help break through those big tech algorithms that prevent content like this from being shown to more people. If you'd like, you can follow us on x at in the tank pod, or you can send us your comments, questions, and suggestions for the show by emailing us at inthetankpodcastgmail.com. Linea Lukin, where can the find people find you?
Linnea Lueken:Right now, I am on the, other cesspit that is, Twitter at Linea Lukin. And, also, you can read some of our work that we put out from the Robinson Center at climaterealism.com.
Donald Kendal:Perfect. And she will also be on the Climate Real
Linnea Lueken:Estate Show
Donald Kendal:on Heartland's main YouTube channel on Fridays at noon CST. Chris Talgo, what do you have to pitch today?
Chris Talgo:Oh, harland.org. Tons of great content up there.
Donald Kendal:Fantastic. And, of course, check out that new book. Link to it right there. It's a QR code. Scan that.
Donald Kendal:Bring you right to the Amazon page to buy your own copy of Socialism at a Glance. But thank you all for tuning in, and we will talk to you next week.
Chris Talgo:He's a lying dog faced pony soldier.