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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
CIM-10-14-26-expedition-ready-Learning Ep155
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Svea: welcome back to Church is Messy, and the next installment in our series through the stages of the spiritual journey. How you doing today, Rick?
Rick: Svea, I'm doing pretty good.
Svea: Yeah?
Rick: Doing pretty good. Yeah. we are recording at a different time than we normally do. I'm at the end of the week, and I am going to do my best.
I'm gonna dig deep to bring energy- ... so that I'm not, flatlined and you have to carry the whole thing here.
Svea: maybe instead of, pulling things out of air and I'm trying to figure out how to transition from point to point- Yeah ... we might be very focused this
Rick: time. I might be easier to work with.
Maybe- ... maybe lest, less squirrely, Less distracted, things like that,
Svea: We'll see.
Rick: I'll try to be a good teammate.
Svea: I do wanna start off with- gratitude.
Rick: You're welcome. You- I, I, it's my pleasure.
Svea: I've often said you are the fastest person to accept a compliment of anyone I know.
You don't even know what I was gonna say.
Rick: I had no clue. I have no clue what you're ta-
Svea: But you're just here for it.
Rick: I'm here for it. Yeah.
Svea: I love that. it's gonna feel strange now 'cause
Rick: you just said- What do you have gratitude for? You feel, you're feeling gratitude ...
Svea: in the way that you constructed the sermon, I was just very grateful- Okay
that as you told a certain story, you showed a picture- Yeah ... on the slide rather than demonstrating for
Rick: us. There's some... I thought this story would be helpful, but it is certainly awkward. And, I'm trying not to- This is,
Svea: of course,
Rick: your mishap on the- I don't wanna make it... That's right ... gym equipment. on the gym equipment.
And we're just gonna call it gym equipment, right? I don't wanna make it cringey, but I think people, know where I'm coming from, and I think the str- story served its purpose.
Svea: If you didn't watch the sermon, you need to go back
Rick: and- Y- yeah. We, won't- ... get
Svea: the context
there ...
Rick: we're not gonna unpack the details for you.
You're just gonna have to, you're gonna have
Svea: to investigate. But it does illustrate one of the reasons why I work out at home.
Rick: There you go. Hey. Listen. Man, ah. Yeah, sometimes there are things at the gym that will trigger insecurity, and that was one of them.
Svea: the, the story was a good illustration in the necessity of humility-
Rick: To be teachable
Svea: in what we learned.
Rick: To ask for help. Yeah. I need... I don't know something, somebody else knows it, so maybe somebody can help me with this. We need that the entire time of our journey with Jesus. But there are seasons, stages, moment, a way point in which that is high priority. I really need to learn.
There are things that I don't know. And this is the season to, start to learn that.
Svea: Yeah. the, the story also vibed- with the first point you were making about, we're all on a health journey.
Rick: We absolutely are, yeah.
Svea: We might be doing it intentionally or- Yeah ... just living a day at a time.
Rick: You're, on a relationship journey, you're on a financial journey, you're on a health journey, you're on a wisdom journey. maybe you're intentional, maybe you're passive, maybe you're reckless. But if you would just, ignore the fact that you are on a journey, it doesn't change the fact that you are moving in a direction.
Svea: Yeah. Yeah. so i- in part- of my own health journey, I met with a wellness coach for a while. And one of the things that she often said to encourage me- is, "Don't measure where you are today and how far you are from your goal." "Just measure, are you taking one step closer each day?"
Oh,
Rick: I love
Svea: that.
Rick: Direction over speed.
Svea: And, that just seemed... I heard echoes of that- in this message- about the importance of our direction, that, direction and intention- is what ultimately is leading us to our destination.
Rick: I want to move with some pace, and I wanna make progress quickly.
But I think what I am learning is I, that I'm never... I just, I don't know that I can ever go as fast as I want to, and that p- probably is not even the intent. But what's most important is moving in the right direction. Yeah. So direction over speed. I somehow I came across that years ago, and it really does mean a lot to me, and I hope it's helpful for others.
Svea: and we see that a lot in the spiritual journey, too.
Rick: I think so. I think so. Tell me more.
Svea: I love that the Bible never gives a metric for people should know this, understand this, have all of these, like an objective, measurable- Yeah. Yeah ... like this is what it requires. It's more, are you growing- Yeah
in love? Are you growing in your- I, I- ... affection for Jesus and for other people? Are you growing in these qualities?
Rick: Svea, you did not offer any new information to me, but you did just kinda blow my mind. There are no metrics- for churches, for, your, own growth. There's direction- and progress.
Are you maturing? Are you not maturing?
Svea: Yeah. and how beautiful because-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: that includes-
Rick: Wow ...
Svea: the youngest and the oldest people. Yeah. The newest believer- the most mature believer.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: We're not in competition with each other. Jesus is just inviting us to take another step closer No, and yet somehow I'm winning.
There you go again.
Rick: You're, right. It's not a com- Your confidence- Yeah ... is
Svea: amazing.
Rick: We're not in competition. And, churches aren't in competition with each other. brothers and sisters in Christ are not in competition. What a strange family dynamic it would be. I mean- Ugh ... they make for interesting shows, dysfunction.
But- ... what a, what an interesting family dynamic it would be if members of the family were constantly competing with each other.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Oh, yeah, against each other. Yeah,
Svea: Okay, so we're gonna talk
Rick: about- And I don't mean like brothers and stuff like that. I got a brother and, he's trying to catch up with me.
But, b- but you know what I'm saying. if kids, if moms and dads have all of that, it's just not... Yeah, it's not healthy.
Svea: I don't think there's... We didn't plan to talk about this, but I don't think it's a mistake that our minds are kinda both going there- and this, competition- Yeah
and metric idea, especially when we're talking about the learning stage. 'Cause I think there- Yeah ... is a trap and a pitfall there-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: of-
Rick: I've spent a lot of time ...
Svea: of measuring- Yeah ... maturity based on what we know.
Rick: I've spent a lot of time in that pitfall. In the ditch of, equating my identity and my o- and my worth with how much I know.
And, ugh, no, it's not healthy. It's not good. But I am... I'm, far, more familiar with that than I wish that I were.
Svea: so just talk a little bit about that, 'cause we need to know. We need to have- Yeah ... a good foundation- Yeah ... of knowledge about God as He really is- Absolutely ... not just about h- what we imagine Him to be.
Rick: We need truth.
Svea: And, we need to know Scripture. We need to know what God has given us as the way that He's chosen to reveal Himself to us. Yes, so there's absolutely a, an, a necessity in having a good foundation of knowledge. And yet- if we reduce the Christian life to just about what we know, we're missing the whole point.
Rick: Absolutely. And I think you described it really well. We need information. We need knowledge. We need facts. We need truth. The spiritual formation journey and our maturity cannot be reduced to that. it's about becoming more like Jesus, but we have to know what He is like. And, throughout the series we're saying this, He's the map and He's the destination, and the Bible is the way that we better know our map.
He... I, it is how we know who Jesus is and what He is like and what honors Him and, how we can express love to Him. Jesus once said, "The greatest commandment is this, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, your mind, and your strength." So we should think well.
The Apostle Paul talked about in his letter to the Roman Church that transformation comes by changing the way that we think, being... I'm convinced that the number one tool of the Holy Spirit is truth. these things are monumentally important. But man, we are just missing it if we think it boils down to the information we know.
And I know that I told, a story that's,
Svea: Oh, what
Rick: a powerful story ... hard to
hear.
Rick: Yeah. It's a, rough, it's a rough story, but, it's a re- it's very real.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: it's very true, and this is, a family that they, they knew. They knew all the information, but they really hadn't experienced the transformation of it.
And I'm not saying they, that they aren't followers of Jesus. I absolutely believe they, they were, but something had stunted the progress. and, and I wanted them to experience the kinds of things that we're talking about right now.
Svea: Yeah. I, appreciated the tactic that you took in this message and in presenting the learning stage, because I think coming down to that line of the goal isn't information, the goal is transformation- Yes
that just made the spiritual formation pastor in me wanna cheer. Yeah. but I think that is more powerful and more profound than people may realize at first hearing. That-
Rick: Okay ...
Svea: unlike other forms of learning- when we are trying to just ingest all- kinds of information, we need to read the Bible differently-
Rick: Yes
Svea: than we study mathematics or biology- or, other forms of learning. Because we're reading it not just to download trivia, but to truly let it change us- Yes ... into someone who's more like Jesus. And i- if we rob ourselves of that, we're just filling our brain, but it's not going beyond it.
Rick: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Theology can be that. Theology can be purely information. and you could do really well in college or seminary. You could be a professor. You could be an incredible author. And it's only, information. But life with Jesus isn't. So I'm reading a, I'm reading a book.
You recommended it to... I think you actually gave me my copy of this book, What Grows in Weary Lands- by Tish Harrison Warren.
Svea: Fantastic book.
Rick: And this morning, I was reading about, she uses this imagery of faith is a craft, and I'm still, working through that. but the more she wrote about it, the more it made sense to me that it's things that we understand, but it's practices that we do.
it's a way of, it's a way of living. And there's so much that we miss when we treat it just like in- information. I think I, I know that I've used this quote before. Hans Rookmaaker said this, "Jesus didn't come to make us Christian, He came to make us fully human." He is showing us a new way to be human.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: His way. And, man, in it there is, there's depth and richness to it. Going back to week one when the Apostle Paul says, "Work out your salvation," and that is a term he used related to mining. There's so... There are treasures that go deeper than you can imagine- to draw out, and those treasures are yours.
don't reduce this to bullet points of facts and info.
Svea: Could you speak maybe to that person that's starting to wonder, have I been more focused on information than transformation?" And maybe after a couple of decades of Bible study. And- Yeah ... maybe that person who's like, "Yep, I know the Word.
I, even know the story of the Bible, not just the Bible stories. I've been around theology books." "I've been around Sunday school classes." I know this, but now I'm starting to wonder if there's something I'm missing in this."
Rick: It might be that they are missing something, and that something is the Spirit-enacted, Spirit-initiated, Spirit-empowered evolution, transformation, changing into someone who lives the way that Jesus lived.
You become like Him as though He were the one living your life. and it begins to animate things that perhaps, we've ignored or kept on the shelf. Patience Gentleness, kindness, listening, generosity. Oh my goodness. All those kinds of things that the Holy Spirit is working, out.
And as, and something begins to come alive. And I'm not talking about emotionalism. And so here's something that didn't make it in- into the sermon. I was reading some stuff by John Stott, and, we can summarize. He was talking about, one of my favorite, proverbs, for every mile of road, there's two miles of ditch.
Here's a couple of ditches on this journey. One is, intellectualism without affection, and the other is emotionalism without understanding. And I'm not talking about emotionalism. But I am talking about knowing without affection. and I, think that's the... I think that's something to start, wrestling with-
Svea: Yeah
Rick: if, someone resonates with this. and I wanna push a little bit further into this question. And, I shouldn't be offensive because, we can't see who we're talking to. We don't know- ... we don't know who's hearing this. But I'll tell you a story about myself that I'm not very proud of.
I can think back to specific times that I was in a small group where we were studying a book, and that book was inviting me into transformation. The content that we were talking about really was inviting me to grow to be more like Jesus. And I just, at that time, I was just uncomfortable with that part of it.
I was stuck in the information, less about the transformation, and I was the guy in the group who always, was able to articulate a reason for why this study wasn't good enough or why it was insufficient or whatever. And so if you are that person in the group where it's easy for you to recognize reasons to be dismissive, maybe it's because you're resisting an invitation, and it's not about impressing someone with your brain.
It's about following Jesus with your whole self. Maybe.
Svea: No, that's good. I think there are probably two times in life- in the spiritual journey when we might be in that place. And one of them- might just simply be when we're new in the learning phase. Sure. And we're just hungry for foundation.
Yeah. We're hungry for knowledge. We're hungry for, I need to understand the structure of all this and how it works and how it fits together.
Rick: Yeah, like how many books are in the Bible, and who wrote what, and they come in what order? Yeah. And what's the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament?
Okay. All right.
Svea: Yeah. I- And we're just needing some structure to hang- Yeah ... our hat on here.
Rick: That's, that's- like there's, information is great. I love learning. I love knowing stuff. I think it's great. We just don't wanna reduce the journey- Yeah ... to that.
Svea: Yeah. But I think it does become a danger when we're maybe stuck there and unwilling to let the information have its intended work in our soul.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Svea: I'll say too for myself, I think this is probably a trap that I'm vulnerable to. I love to learn. I- Yeah ... I'm a self-proclaimed nerd- and, and have enjoyed being a student throughout- most of my life, and it is easier to feel like a success in learning-
Rick: let's let some
Svea: people-
before being- ... off the
Rick: hook ...
Svea: transformed by- Yeah ... what you're learning.
Rick: Let's some, let's let some people off the hook, and maybe you off the hook a little bit too. And I'm missing the terminology, but you know that there are different ways that we're wired and different ways that we encounter God.
Sure. And some of us are a bit more kind of intellectual. we're intellect- we're, analytical, and we love the, the mental stimulus. Yep. Other people are more kind of naturalists, and they love being out in nature. some people love highly experiential moments and stuff, and it's okay. there's nothing wrong with people like, "I just love the experience of learning.
It's a delight." That is a way of worship. Yeah. That's a way... It's so good. So don't ever feel bad about that. Let's just remember we don't wanna reduce it to that.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And that the whole point is that we better understand Jesus so we can better, be with Jesus and become like him so that we can do as he did.
Svea: I've, have felt in my own spiritual growth a big change from the approach I take to reading the Bible. and somewhat the mindset that I have- in going into that. And there are definitely times like, preparing a sermon or- Yeah ... when I'm gonna teach the Bible or something like that, where it's important to just be looking critically at studying the scriptures and- Yeah
and seeing what they're seeking to communicate- Yeah ... and interpreting it accurately, and bringing in commentaries and original word studies and all of that kind of stuff. But something changed in my spiritual health when I also would sit down with the Bible and just read it to try to see Jesus. And maybe just stay on one story.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Or even a couple of verses, and just sit in there and linger in there, and maybe read it with imagination. to sit and, think, "What would it be like to be in this scene right now?"
Rick: Okay. Give me some handholds on how to do that. And, give everybody who's listening, some handholds on, on how to- Yeah
on how to do
Svea: that. there's a term for it. Okay. A practice called Lectio Divina- which is Latin for a divine reading.
Rick: A little showing off, a little bit of what Svea's learned. Drop some Latin-
Svea: Oh, it's a little- ... into the
Rick: podcast ...
Svea: spiritual formation stuff happening here. and it's an ancient practice- Yeah
that goes way back- in the history of the church. Christians have been doing this for, hundreds of years. but there's kind of four stages in this of like first just taking a very slow reading of the text. Not rushing through it, but let's just sit in the text and just linger with it, read it, and just notice something in it.
what is it that, that feels significant to me today in this text? Maybe it's a certain word, maybe it's an idea, maybe it's a phrase. and then there's a period of meditating on that. Let me just think about that. Let me just bring this to God. why does this particular word feel- a little bit more weighty than the rest of it? Is there something in this that you're trying to communicate to me? in that stage I love to just, like I said, I like to picture myself in that story. if it's a story about Jesus, how do I think Jesus' face might have looked like- as He was saying these words?
what would it have felt to hear Him say this? Would I have reacted with curiosity? Would it have maybe offended me a little bit? what, how would this- Yeah ... have felt to be there? Yeah. And something happens as you spend that kind of time, noticing- things in the text.
then as you're moving through this process, there's a stage of praying it back to God. Let me talk to God about- what I'm seeing in this. And, and then finally in this fourth stage is more of an application type stage. What do I wanna take from this story that actually will help transform me- by it and impact the way that I live? and I love to do that. I love to do that in my, private devot- devotional time. not to study scripture for information, but I have found that to be really helpful- That's awesome ... in how it transforms me.
Rick: That's awesome. Yeah. That's great. Do we have...
I'm putting you on the spot with some- but do we have a resource that's handy for folks? I
Svea: do. I've, got a printout. Yeah. we don't have it posted on our website right now. If anyone is hearing and they want that, they can email me, mary.svea@autumnridge.church. Okay. And I'd be happy to send that handout.
'cause yeah, I just have found that to be a great resource. Otherwise, they can Google like Dio Divina- Yeah ... and find- Okay ... some other resources online too.
Rick: Good.
Svea: I liked the, the application points that you offered though also, and that, first one is in that same category of a- Yeah ... an approach to reading scripture to see Jesus.
Not to complete
Rick: a task- but to, to see Him. Yeah.
Svea: And then, when you wanna talk about your other two, two next step application points to help
Rick: you? Yeah. So the first is to, read scripture, not to complete a task, but to really see Jesus, encounter Jesus. The second one is to take your...
And we haven't talked about this, in this episode. though we had hoped- thoughts and feelings, like these- Like that line from the Emmaus Road story ... these two guys, oh, they were walking the road. They're like, "We had hoped that, he's gonna be the one to redeem Israel." So there's, there, there are shattered hopes there.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: There are unfulfilled expectation. I thought it would be different. I thought I knew who he was, I thought I knew what he was up to, I thought I knew where this story was going, and it is not. Just take that and turn those into a prayer. By the way, that's like the majority of what the Book of Psalms is.
Yeah. It's-
Svea: True ... "
Rick: Man, I am just feeling it. I'm having a day, and I don't, like this. I don't understand this, and these people, they're..." it's just, it's all the things. And just have an unedited conversation with God. You don't have to pretend, you don't have to baptize your thoughts in religious language or jargon.
You could just say, "God, this is, I had hoped it would be this, and I'm trying to trust you in this. What do you wanna do- Yeah ... with me in this?" Yeah.
Svea: As I'm thinking about that- I could see that experience either having an incredibly healthy effect on my spiritual life. I could also see a little bit of a trap, too.
And I would think the difference would be, taking just those honest thoughts and feelings, "God, I thought that it would be different." "I had hoped- it would be X, but now it feels like it's Y." being honest with God is always a good thing. bringing him into all of our inner thoughts- is, a good thing. Where I could see it becoming a trap is if we get stuck-
Rick: Yeah ... in there. It's not a complaining session, although you are allowed to complain. He can handle it. Cast all your cares-
Svea: Yeah ...
Rick: onto him. That's
Svea: what we're told to do. But what advice would you have if you feel, if someone feels like it's going m- maybe a little bit- Yeah
too long from, from- Yeah ... just telling God, "I had hoped this," to I am stuck in it's not the way I want it to be, and I can't move forward?
Rick: Remember, like the whole disposition is, "Jesus, I'm here for you to teach me." "Whatever you wanna teach me, I'm here for it. However you wanna teach me- I'm here for it.
Through whomever you want to teach me, I'm here for it. And so I have this. Clearly, you want to... You don't ever waste a hurt. there's things you want me to know. There's a promise in your Word that all things work together for good who love you are called according to your purpose. I love you. I wanna be according to your purpose.
What do you wanna do with me? What do you wanna teach me? What do you want me to know? And I thought about putting this in the sermon, I just didn't have time, is that I think God is just in heaven giggling sometimes. And, I like that picture ... sure, maybe not with you, but he's doing it to me. He's just "You know what?
You- Rick, there's this thing that I need Rick to know. He's gotta grow in this area, and I'm just gonna send him the person who he thinks he is smarter than to teach him that thing. I'm going to t- 'cause he has a tendency to be competitive, and, and he thinks he's better than this person right here, and I'm gonna send that person-
to teach him this thing." And I think he's just "I did it again. Look, it's Come on, check this out. Watch this." I just think he loves it,
Svea: Oh, dear.
Rick: Is that okay? Is that okay that I imagine God doing that?
Svea: I think it's delightful.
Rick: I think it's the only way that I could find it tolerable. The fact that I feel like this is the experience sometimes, and I realize it- And
Svea: somehow He can do it with perfect attitude.
Rick: Oh, my goodness. I... Listen. This, he's wor- I'm not done with the journey. I gotta- Well- I got some... I got a ways to go.
Svea: You bridged really easily into that third, next step that you suggested, which was- Learn
Rick: in community ...
Svea: doing it in community.
Rick: Learn with other people.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Learn in community. This, this is not a, this is not a, a solo adventure.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: So I wanna go back- Okay ... to the Emmaus Road story. Because this is such a fantastic story. I love this story. I, wish if, I could maybe be in any Bible story, I would've loved the opportunity to be one of those two disciples- Okay ... on the road.
Rick: Okay. '
Svea: Cause how incredible to have Jesus explain the scriptures to you.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: can you- Yeah ... imagine? I wish- From
Rick: beginning. I- From the beginning.
Svea: I wish they had written that down.
Rick: Yeah. Would've been nice.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Would've been nice.
Svea: Is there any particular Bible story or section of scripture or idea that you're just excited to ask Jesus about someday? "Explain this."
Rick: Huh.
Svea: Putting you on the spot with that one, but-
Rick: That is a... that's a good one That really is, that's a good one. I think I probably have got some questions I wanna wrestle and talk about the flood. The flood and the Tower of Babel, and how those two relate to each other, 'cause I think they relate, and I'd like to know a little bit more about that.
Svea: That would be interesting. but something that you touched on just a little bit- and there's so much we could talk about, and it's one of the reasons I wanted to come back to this- is Jesus' approach in how He talked with these two people- Yeah ... about scripture- was somewhat slow. He didn't, start off with, "Hey, guys, I'm Jesus.
Now- Yeah ... let me prove it to you." Oh,
Rick: my goodness. just where's the supernatural effects and the fireworks and the, I'm back, baby." Yeah. I rose from the dead, and- Yeah ... and just- The
Svea: whole time on the road He stayed-
Rick: And to
Svea: show off ...
Rick: kind of incognito. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, He didn't
Svea: do that at all.
Rick: Receive all the glory, receive all the adoration, and wow these guys. But if He'd have done that, they would not have had the framework to understand what to do next in their lives. They would not have understood the big story and where their story and their moment fit into that. And Jesus was so invested in their development- so invested in their learning and their transformation, that He slow-rolled His reveal for their good. Wow.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Wow. That's just the way he is Yeah.
Svea: we would be arrogant to think that we could ascribe purpose in exactly what Jesus was doing. But at the same time, I think there's something that we can learn from this-
Rick: Sure
Svea: in his approach to forming people.
Rick: That's just, that's my best thought, the best guess at why he did it that way, but I know that they benefited.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Yeah. one of the people at Run Through pointed out- he's illustrating a key difference here in different approaches to learning.
Yeah. And how in our Western culture, we're so oriented on kind of data download.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Here's the thesis. Here's all of the proof for it. just- Yeah ... kind of that, that very logical, rational, just listen and ingest
Rick: style- Pastor Ian- ... of learning ... he's more than just a sing-song guy.
He, had a, he had a really, I think, a, a really, helpful, profound insight of the difference between an Eastern approach to teaching and Western approach to teaching. In Western, we tend to get, here's the information, here's my thesis, here's my 10 points to support my thesis, and we just kinda data dump and prove our case, where the Eastern approach, which is certainly, the, the vantage point that the Bible was written from and how Jesus taught people, is to instruct people in such a way that they come to an awareness, that they come to an understanding.
And, we've quoted guys like Tim Mackey, before. His ... The, the Bible is meant to be read and thought about over a long period of time. Take a, a slow cup of tea or, a deep cup of coffee, and walk with it and think with it and, roll it around in your mind and meditate on it and come to an understanding.
It ... That's, that is the educational approach- that we see represented in scripture.
Svea: and I think it's important for us- to keep that in mind as we're reading it, that we can't read the Bible in the same way that we might read a textbook today.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: That it is written in a different style, and their approach to- Yeah
to learning was different, and that there is maybe a little bit more work required than some of us are used to. Did you
Rick: ever have these books? I had these books, like, when I was a teenager. it would... It's, a just a little paperback book, and it would have all kinds of subjects and then verses that you could look up related to that subject.
like hope and dating and all kinds of different, all kinds of different things. And it's not wrong to have a book that shows you verses that represent, a subject matter, but all of those things were taken... I'm not gonna say that they're taken out of context, but they're taken from a context- They're lifted from a context
they're presented in a way that I don't get to see the context and the grand arc of scripture. Sure. And so I was raised in that way, in, in that way of thinking. I was taught in that way of thinking, and it was a lot of work for me to realize, oh my goodness, I've been almost treating the Bible like an instruction manual or a fact book, and that is not how God presented his word to us.
Svea: Sure. Sure. So here's where I think I'd- to land. We talked a little bit about the person who's been in the word for years and years- and, and maybe their need to reevaluate, are they just ingesting information- Sure ... or are they letting it transform them? But I wanna talk about the person who is just entering this learning stage- Yeah
for the first time. Yeah. And especially if they may be coming to faith later in life. And, and it does take some humility if, especially if you're well-educated in many other areas of life, but you're feeling like a neophyte when it comes to the Bible- Sure ... and theology. I'm sure
Rick: that word means something, but keep going.
Svea: we can download- ... some information later, right? can you just give some encouragement- Yeah ... for the, the value in leaning into the intellectual humility that might be required in the learning stage?
Rick: Yeah. You are on a journey in which Jesus pursued you first, and he came after you. And he is with you, and you are getting to discover him and to know him.
And you get to, with all of your life experiences and all the things that you've known and all the things, that you, have, gone through, y- with all of that, you get to see Jesus, and now you get to see all of those things through what you're learning about Jesus- through who he is and what he's doing in his life.
It's awesome. What a gift. what a privilege. Don't feel bad about that. y- your journey is so incredibly meaningful, and don't you dare compare yourself to where you think you ought to be or compare yourself to where you think somebody else is. It is, you are with Jesus, and he is with you, and learn all that you can and soak it up and experience it as a gift.
But now by no means should you be critical of yourself.
Svea: Yeah, I think that's a good word.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: I enjoyed getting to talk about the learning stage. Feels like we're moving fast through this. Can you believe next week we'll be halfway through the stages?
Rick: I, I don't know where it's going.
I do not know where it's going.
Svea: no, you should know exactly where it's going.
Rick: I mean-
Svea: We're headed towards-
Rick: it's just- ... becoming people of love, Rick. I'm talking about the time. I don't know where the time is going when I... It related to-
Svea: Good clarification ...
Rick: to, to time there, yeah.
Svea: No, it's true. It's going quickly- but, there's still lots of great stuff ahead.
Rick: Yeah.