F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley: Living Like a Head Bitch In Charge | U = Understand — “Listening to Understand”

This is episode 3 in a 5 part series on L.U.V.E.

Understanding with Cognitive Empathy: Navigating Perspectives

In this episode of 'Fuck Fear with Christine Spratley: Living Like a Head Bitch in Charge,' Christine explores the concept of 'Understanding' in communication, particularly in relationships. She delves into cognitive empathy and perspective-taking, emphasizing the importance of understanding others' logic without abandoning one's own perspective. Christine shares anecdotes, discusses techniques for effective listening, and highlights the benefits of stepping into someone else's shoes. The discussion also touches on political and social issues, aiming to foster deeper human connections. Join Christine for an insightful conversation on how to actively listen and understand others better.

00:00 Introduction and Immunity Shots
01:40 Major Correction and LUVE Series Overview
02:54 Understanding: The 'U' in LUVE
06:23 Cognitive Empathy and Perspective-Taking
10:58 Practical Applications and Personal Stories
19:05 Political Conversations and Empathy
35:38 Assignment and Conclusion

Creators and Guests

Host

Christine (HBIC) Spratley

Dynamic Public Speaker | Change Catalyst | Career Navigation Coach

What is F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley: Living Like a Head Bitch In Charge ?

This podcast is for anyone who wants to live like an HBIC—or lives with, works with, marries, dates, or is raising one. Let’s be real: being a Head Bitch in Charge is messy, bold, and unapologetically badass. This is not a guidebook—it’s a pantry.

My guests and I will share the ingredients that we use—what’s worked and what’s failed—as we say “fuck fear” and take action to live a fulfilled life. We cover real-life hacks and deep philosophical pillars to navigate the chaos of everyday life—where some days, my only accomplishment is having a bra on and my teeth brushed.

We’re tackling the daily shit women navigate, from workplace politics to relationships, raising kids, and building careers, all with humor, audacity, and zero filters.

So, tune in—tell your friends, and even your enemies. This isn’t about aging with grace—it’s about aging with mischief, audacity, and a damn good story to tell.

36 - Fuck Fear - U in LUVE
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Christine: [00:00:00] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and everyone in between. Welcome to Fuck Fear with Christine Spratley, living like a head bitch in charge, and, excuse me, I am yawning already. I think we need to do our shots.

Joe: We we're back on immunity. We're

Christine: back on immunity today. That's what we're [00:01:00] doing. The other one was good. It had a slow burn, kind of like Jack Daniels does going down. But I don't, this is, I, I don't know. Immunity is better. So, let's see.

I'm not sure who made it today, so. Although I'm shaking mine up again 'cause it's got a lot of pepper in the bottom. How's yours?

Joe: I'm seeing chunks of pepper. This is gonna be delightful. You've seeing chunks

Christine: of pepper, so it's gonna be okay. All right. Tell me when you're ready. I'm ready. 1, 2, 3. Shoot.

Oh, baby.

Joe: Oh, that's of pepper.

Christine: That was good though. Oh, here it comes. Yeah. Oh yeah. All right. As I spill it all over myself and everything else a major correction. We have

This is a number, episode three of five on LUVE and I made a major fu pa during our last episode, Joe.

And as a matter of fact, I called you out on it and that was Dr. Feel good. It was not. And I, and it bugged me the whole [00:02:00] day. It was because I knew it wasn't, it wasn't guns N Roses, but it's Motley Crue. Guns N Roses was appetite for destruction. And the reason I had that on my mind is 'cause I was listening to it yesterday morning.

So that is the major correction.

Joe: Apologies to the crew.

Christine: A spot. Apologies to the crew. So we've been doing love LUVE as a way of communicating and listening and especially in all sorts of relationships, not just the romantic ones, not just with personal relationships, but professional relationships as well.

And to we're on the you of it. So if you haven't listened to. The intro and the l go listen to it. But do it after you listen to this one first. Keep on listening. So today the U stands instead of the O like an LOVE. It's LU and it is understand listening to understand, and it is [00:03:00] actually getting to the part of understanding and I liken this to.

You know, those Scooby-Doo moments when you have with somebody where their head, just, your head just kind of turns and goes, huh? And you're like, what the, like literally, what the fuck? Like how and and what I've realized in under, in, in the U is that it is not me understanding the situation as far as.

Going, okay. Well, like it has to make sense to me. It has to, like, there's this technical aspect of it that, that it needs to align with my vision or my perception of what happened or anything. This is very much about stepping into someone else's logic and holding two perspectives or more at once while [00:04:00] keeping your sound footing and your own footing and, and just kind of.

Letting all of that happen at once. And I think you've heard me say this, Joe, and I know I've talked to, to others on about this, about holding different emotions at once and different, you know, the duality of reality sometimes, and this is, goes to that what it aligns to is that it is a cognitive act.

Of stepping into another person's logic, as I've said, seeing how their history, their emotions, their environment, shape, the way that they connect the dots and, and get to the conclusion that they have. Okay. And so one, you're listening, you're, you know, the l and then you're going, okay, well, I, I think I hear you're on, like you saw something completely different than I [00:05:00] did.

And then it's like, well, how do I understand that the understanding part is not to go well? I need to get you to my point or to my perspective, my understanding. Part of that is, is that it's an intentional cognitive I, 'cause I did I, you know how I like definitions and stuff. I started looking up, breaking down all this down cognitive act, intentional processing of information so that I can comprehend the person's particular point of view, which is perception.

And how they've arrived at their conclusion, which we oftentimes, when I'm sitting here listening to somebody, I'm, I'm all we talked about in the last episode of Advice Monsters. I'm always thinking about what to say and, but if I take that energy and instead go, okay, I'm hearing what you're saying. Now I turn it into an intentional act of processing the information I'm hearing.

I. Requires me to listen, then requires me to process the information so I can comprehend [00:06:00] your point of view and how you arrived at their conclusion. That's completely different than when I listen to a conversation. I mean, I'm listening to problem solve. I'm listening to give input, you know, and it's not all the time.

I can't say that 'cause I do this more than I used to. But. It really makes listening an active sport, and it's much more than just hearing it is processing and it, by doing this, it is, there's this thing called cognitive empathy. And I really started diving into this of, of, okay, how do I, mm. How do I listen and understand, and it's kind of like when we were talking in the last episode about the advice monster.

How do I get, how do I [00:07:00] tame that monster? Well, part of it is going, okay, I can ask questions, but once I start getting the data, then it's kind of like, what do I do then? Because my mind always wants to go into, go active mode, action mode. And, and what it does here is it takes me onto an intentional processing of what I'm hearing.

Of the information I'm receiving, so I can then get to your point of view and go, oh, that's how she got there, or that's how he got there. And what it doesn't mean is it doesn't mean it doesn't, doing this requires nothing of me. It in the sense of it doesn't require me to agree with what information I'm getting.

It doesn't require me to approve of it or abandon my perspective. I. It is just like I said before, cognitive empathy, mapping their reasoning first and then deciding, okay, what do we do next with it? [00:08:00] And I just, I thought that was a really unique pers way to approach it. 'cause you've heard me talk about stepping into the logic of others, but I was like, well, how the hell do you get there?

And, and so part of this was I wasn't satisfied with just, okay, Tam, the advice monster, but then, okay, how do I get there? And they call it this cognitive Act, act of stepping into their logic is. perspective. Taking theory of the mind, which allows me to see another person's perspective and take it on and go, oh, okay, I get this. And then the intentional processing is, you know, it's not this empathy of this fluffy empathy, it's this really, it takes effort. It ta requires an intentional effort on my part of how I'm going to participate in this interaction with [00:09:00] you.

And then I like the fact that it does not require me to do anything with this information at this point in time. And I, I reminded me of yes or the other days' episode of, you know, we wanna give a, give the wrong answer fast. You know, this doesn't, I, I get to sit here with it. And this is, it echoes mi you know, and technical ethic empathy best practices.

And those things are just. To me, some of the core therapy frameworks, some of the core psychology frameworks when you get into empathy and I don't, I don't know. I just, so I started digging, you know, me of course digging, and it goes into nonviolent communication efforts where it's observe feeling, you know, [00:10:00] observation leads to feeling, leads to need, leads to, leads to request, and it just.

I don't know. I just never thought of it like that. And I think for me, understanding that I can get there, I can get to their side without giving up any ground on mine. Allows me to almost be a little bit more generous 'cause I'm not on that defensive mode. And, and you talked about that the other day, about, you know, having the PR to prove the point or being defensive and, and I thought it was, I thought you said that.

'cause it might have been me 'cause I, I've been defensive the last few days, so it could very well be me. But it allows me to kind of go, okay, I'm not worried about my stuff, my stuff's okay, it's over here. This is all about me thinking about what's going on with your stuff. Now what's interesting is [00:11:00] that has there's some really good videos and, and YouTube videos and stuff, and I'll give those to you, Joe.

But Chris Voss is a, is a hostage negotiator and he's got some videos out there and interviews, and I think he's a TED Talk, but he talks about this and. He talks about labeling the counterparts narrative. It seems like, you know, when you respond, you know it, it seems like this is how you are experiencing this, or it seems like these are the facts for you because of this, that and the other.

And again, it's when I. When I learn that I can understand where they're coming from, and all I need to do is, is to understand that and to get into their logic. I don't need to accept it or defend it or anything. I just need to [00:12:00] say that am am I on track here? Right. It allows them to clarify. It allows them to pivot from that.

And I know this has happened to me is when somebody has met me with Christine, I hear you and you've heard this in therapy. I hear you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or it seems like this is what you're saying, or this is what you believe. And this happened to me with a buddy of mine from work. We were sitting there and we were having a, he's, he's. A Republican and I'm a Democrats.

We were having a great conversation and and I was dead to rights, man. I was throwing down and, and he just gently was like, okay, it seems like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I heard him say exactly what I was saying and I was like, Ooh, that's, that's not right. That didn't add [00:13:00] up. Two plus two is not six.

That is four. And, but because of the way he presented that, and I don't know, he probably had the intention to, to point it out in a nice way, but it allowed me to pivot. So I'm not saying do it to understand, to get them to pivot that they're wrong, but it does also allow somebody, because you're not coming at them with a defensive mechanism, it allows 'em to either clarify, pivot, or say, yeah, that's that's right.

You're on target and. I, I like that because when they're less defensive, I'm typically less defensive and it, it moves, understanding, moves the needles in the conversation, and I think this is where I, I'm having a hard time with some of the things I'm going through right now is I'm so attached to [00:14:00] me being heard and understood.

I'm almost afraid that if I understand your logic or if I give you space for your logic or your Perce perspective, that somehow negates mine. And I'm, I really think that that is when you go, okay, is this person, and, and I'm talking about a personal relationship right now, is this person what's their intent, you know.

And is this, if I'm so dependent on making sure that I don't give them space because it's gonna take up my space. What's that really about? Because that's a, that's a me thing. It's not a their thing. It has nothing to do with the conversation we're having. So anyway, I just, I, I found this really fascinating to me and it allows me to go into a completely [00:15:00] different.

Perspective, point of view thought process. And I'm gonna give you three clips that you can kind of go see or watch, whatever go see that sounds like I'm going to a movie. One is Heather Hanson. Why Perspective Beats Empathy to Change Minds And again. Not, we're not listening to change anybody's minds, but these are people that, you know, she does it in a courtroom, courtroom stories, and and then Chris Voss never split the difference.

Technical empathy. And he's kind of got some dry humor in there, which I love. And then how we read each other's minds. This is kind of a.

It goes to the, the fact of how much is actually going on subconsciously when I'm listening [00:16:00] to a person. And so as much as we talk about it today, here I'm listening and I'm understanding and I'm doing this again, it's intentional processing. There's a whole lot going on subconsciously. And for me, I like to know, I like to bring as much subconscious up to the conscious 'cause then I'm.

I'm like, oh wow, this is really what's going on. And then I can go, okay, push this aside, push this aside. We can get to the, the main part of that. But again, this is about ho being able to hold someone else's perspective, point of view, logic, and go, yeah, okay. That, that getting there through your experience.

Through who you are and what you bring and, and all of that. I see that I don't, and again, I don't have to approve of it. I don't have to agree with it. I don't have to agree with your destination. I liken it to being able to travel [00:17:00] across estate. And you've traveled the same road, but one person saw.

You know, sunrises, sunsets, mountains, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. And the other person saw, you know, the bugs accumulate on the windshield. You know, we, we went, we traveled the same ground, we went to the same places, had completely. Different experiences or different, all of that. And so I can sit there and I can go, okay.

And I think the beauty about this when I do this, and again this goes back to the advice monster, is I am connecting with the humanity of them. I am connecting with who they are. Not who I am. I'm connecting with who they are, what their past experiences have led them, what their beliefs. [00:18:00] Now you make more sense to me.

I get to understand you better. Not just their perspective. Better but them better. And I'm not trying to change them. I say that and then I'm laughing to myself. 'cause immediately what thought in my mind was yet?

Joe: I like how you brought up [00:19:00] the I think this is a great letter you to talk about politics. It's something that's definitely lacking in our current political conversations. I we're gonna go there. Okay. But I was wondering, so the first one we talked about l in the, the thing that you can often get wrong if you don't complete the steps is you can get to the wrong answer fast.

Mm-hmm. What do you think the thing is you can do wrong if you don't take the time to understand? 'cause when you were talking to me, it felt like. We're just gonna judge their point of view. I need to hear what your point of view real quickly so I can judge it. Oh yeah. Maybe that's, maybe that's just me talking about some issues that I have.

Christine: It's what did for, okay. What, what can I get wrong when I don't do this? Is I don't see you, I, I, I get into this, this state of. I don't have any movement from me, meaning [00:20:00] I don't see who you are with all of your experience in baggage and things like that. Like, like, that's the whole point here for, for, to me and understand is it's, it's about seeing a, their process and I immediately.

Have a hard time with just seeing their process. 'cause then I wanna judge their process kinda like, well you were just saying. So I think the wrong part of it for me is to think that I need to do anything more with that at that point in time.

Joe: Right. Like to let the period be the period and be like, that's as far as we need to get.

That's, that's it. Because otherwise I think very similar to L you're simply taking what they're telling you and making it about you. Yeah. Because now I would like to judge it or like, you like the, the last one. You're not smart enough to know how to make the, the decision of what's the moral thing to do.

Yeah. Or what's the, what's the, I mean, let, what's the correct thing to do?

Christine: And, and so, so it's, I mean it's a, we're gonna go here guys [00:21:00] but you take someone. Who, you know, I live in, in the, in the south and it's different here than it was in Texas. Okay. This is North Carolina is, is a different type of Southern we're kind of purple south.

Yeah. You, you see, but even that, but I'm not from

Joe: here, so

Christine: Yeah. So like, and, and the way, and again, I'm experiencing different but there, so like there is a you know, I can understand. How do I say this? I can understand people that have feelings on a political issue where I feel so strongly differently on, because I sit there and I go, okay, well if you didn't, and I, and I look at them and I see them, okay, and I see all that drives them and, and it goes, oh, well if [00:22:00] you.

Of course, that's your process. You believe in this type of, you know, religion or God or this type of structure or social, like these are the things that you believe in and you've not experienced anything else, or you've experienced it and you've had hard times with it or whatever. Like it just gives me a lot of information about them, and then it's.

It becomes this I see them and I don't see the issue. It's not about their perspective nearly as much as it's about them as a person going, oh, okay. I got to do some walking and door knocking right before the election, and I had no intention of doing it.

That was not my intention. My intention was to drop off some water. At a [00:23:00] place and they said, we need a door knocker and to hang up these things and would you do it? And I said, no, it's hot. And I, my HRT hadn't kicked in yet and I had black leggings on and a black sweatshirt, and they came back with this triple X.

T-shirt that's sitting, you know, Harris Waltz on it. Young, young, young voters. And I'm like what? And, and it was just so funny. I was like, of course I'll do it now. So, and I was in a a particularly Trump part of the state. I. So I knew exactly what I was gonna get. So I didn't, I didn't go there with the intent to change anybody's mind.

I didn't go there to do anything. And I'm not saying I was altruistic, I just, you know, but what I did do was I sat down and one particular gentleman that I talked to, and I must have talked to him, or we talked to each other for, [00:24:00] I don't know. He wouldn't let me leave almost. It was funny, every time I'd get, you know, 'cause you go up and you say, you're supposed to give this spiel about are, you know, have you voted and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was just like, I ain't doing that. So especially when they got a big old Trump flag out there. I'm like, come on. You know? So, but he had this, so we are, we're talking and I'm learning a lot about him. He had an autistic son. He, you know, it just a lot about, again, I'm processing this information and he had this big, beautiful black lab or gr brown lab and you know how the brown labs have a different type of coat sometimes and it's this and, and and I just sat there on the front stoop and talked to him for a good 45 minutes.

And there were things that I'm sure I said where he was like, what the fuck? And there were [00:25:00] definitely things that he said that I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. And neither one of us said that to each other, to the other person. But you could just tell. And I remember he said something and, and I was like, I was like, really? And he said something about, you know, in particular, he said they, they're all, you know, so Harrison Walls were monsters. And I said, really? They're monsters? And I'm like, well, that's a pretty strong word, but that's okay. And and so I said, well, why? And he said, well, they're policies.

And I said, okay, well talk to me about their policies. And, you know, he went down the list and stuff. And and so I'm sitting there about, I don't know, five minutes later or so, and I'm, I'm, and it just hits me and I'm, I'm literally hanging onto this dog. I'm like, and I look up to him and I'm sitting, he's standing above me and I'm [00:26:00] sitting on his stoop and I go, well then, I guess I'm a monster too.

And we just were like, he was like, what? And I was like, no, no, no. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with you describing like, I'm okay with that. Because he's like, well, why? And I said, well, because I believe in certain other policies. So I guess like, and he was like, well, and I'm like, no, I get it. I get it. And it wasn't, I didn't say that to change his mind.

I just was like, well, if, if that's, if I see where you're going, then that applies to me too. And this, this monster's giving your dog belly rubs right now, and that's okay. Are you okay with that? You know, and, and what was funny was then we started having a conversation about. Other thing, like underneath the big words that got over everything.

Like, you know how we talked [00:27:00] about in the last episode about, is that your real challenge? Is that the real challenge?

Joe: Yeah.

Christine: And it was, it was like, okay, well, and then we got, we got down to what are some of the real challenges. And some of the things that he was very concerned about and some of the things that I'm very concerned about.

Some of them were the same, some of them weren't.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. I like how you said it earlier. It's if you do it wrong, you, the best you can walk away with is understanding their position. But if you do it right, you can understand the person. Yeah. Which I think is what's missing in a lot of political conversations.

Christine: Well, and, and the pos, the person makes the position. I mean the person and all of their experiences and the way that their perspectives are, right? Make our positions in whatever relation, whether it be politics, whether it be your relationship with your wife or your, your kiddos or whatever. We bring [00:28:00] all of the baggage, whether it be in work, you know, what are our motives, well, our motives are our hierarchy of needs and our, you know, what we think we're gonna lose and all this other stuff.

So if I start understanding that. And I go, oh, but it makes me have to take you out of this easy gloss over, I call, you've heard me say this before, big box words.

Joe: Yeah. We just wanna put people quickly into a category so we can sort them and move on with our life. But when you try to understand the person, you're like, oh, that's not what this is.

Christine: Yeah. Well, and it, and it, it takes, I was talking with someone last night and we were talking about. You know, I putting things in the black and white and life has lived in the gray. And it's really hard to live in the gray with people that you see things very black and white on, [00:29:00] and it's hard to give them that space.

And, and again, I'm not saying there aren't people out there that are, you know, pretty much black and white and you go, yeah, he's malicious, but it's easy to see. That person,

Joe: right?

Christine: And go, oh, well they're pretty much, you can read them, but you look all into that. And I, last night I was, again, I was having a conversation with somebody and we were talking about, literally understanding some of the politicians why we, why they are the way they, they are both on both sides of the aisle and everything. And and why they feel so strongly about certain things and how much of it is their, their baggage. And, and then how much of it is ours, you know? And again, I just, I don't know.

I don't think I. I don't, it is much harder for me to give you space [00:30:00] because then that has that, that allows me not to put you in a black and white and it allows me to to not like when I don't have to defend myself or my perspectives.

Joe: Yeah.

Christine: What do you do?

Joe: I see it as very similar, but, but not the same.

But I think like when I look back at my personal experience mm-hmm. So it's anecdotal, but like, let's take the issue of homosexuality. I grew up in, in rural Michigan and there was a lot of animosity, lack of understanding, anger, et cetera, to the homosexual community. And there wasn't a big presence where I grew up in my town of homosexual.

So another way to say it is like. A lot of people are scared or don't like homosexuals until they meet one, and then they're like, oh, it's the same thing. It's like, oh, it's a person. It's not, you can't just boil 'em down to that. And it's rather insulting to try to boil somebody down to their [00:31:00] preference and what sex they per, they prefer.

Mm-hmm. The and racism is in the same category. Similar category, not same category in that I. You know, a great way to stop being racist is to start hanging out with people from another race and be like, oh, that's not at all what I thought it was. They're people that are complex and not just one single thing.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's one of the challenges that we're getting into with politics right now is the majority of people want to almost feel like they're more excited to be against something rather than for people. But that's a, that's a tough thing to try to sort through for people.

Christine: Well, it is, but again, I think it, it's tough because that means that I have to look at my shit and my life and my stuff.

Yeah. And see why the hell I can't give you space for yours.

Joe: Right. And [00:32:00] like. We've all done this. Right? And you even mentioned it in your story, just talking to that guy. Sometimes when we say our stuff out loud, we're like, oh, that sounded dumb coming out my mouth. Yeah. The first time I said it, you're like, oh wait, maybe I don't, maybe I don't really know what I'm talking about on that topic.

I've guilty guilty of that many times. Maybe bullshit. Yeah. Well, explain to me what do you mean? And you try it and you're like, oh, I really, I guess I don't have an opinion. I'm just, I'm regurgitating crap. I heard, I, I'm

Christine: regurgitating somebody else's opinion and that's why it's funny. We're gonna. Go into this a little bit, but in stoicism, they, they always talk about not going along with common opinion.

And that's like the stupidest thing you can do is just to go along with Ty Doty, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and it's like, I, I heard this once and it's very true. Is do you have the right to have, have I done enough work to have the right to my opinion or have I just adopted somebody else's? And, I think when I [00:33:00] get to a place of not being willing to.

Understand and to step into somebody else's logic and give them space as a human, they could be a shitty human. I'm not saying that everybody is like this human being that's this wonderful person and they go, oh, okay. No, they could be a shitty human and come to shitty conclusions and you could walk away going, yeah, I completely see how you, you're, you came to that conclusion.

You are a shitty person and this is how. Your background and the way you view things and, and those things like, I'm not saying any of that is, is, is off the table. I'm just saying we take the exercise to intentionally participate in processing the information we see and receive. And again, the, the kicker is, is we're getting this and we're processing it with our baggage.

Yeah. And our own perspective, you know, it's like, oh, you know, so I've gotta go filter all that out and go, okay, what, what's really here? [00:34:00] And I just, I, I like this, I like being challenged to step into another person's shoes and you know, again.

I think a way to kind of wrap this up and, you know, I had no idea we were gonna even talk about politics. I mean, we, we really haven't. We really haven't. Yeah. We

Joe: weren't talking about how to treat people.

Christine: Yeah. And but it's kind of that whole thing of, you know, I, I liken it to little kids. When I was a nanny, it was always, you know, you know, you'd see two kids fighting or arguing and they'd be so mad.

I. And they'd be like, but, but I'm right. And, and it's mine. And we'd just take it away and go, yeah, but you're gonna share, you know, and you would watch a kid go, okay, all right. I, [00:35:00] okay, okay. You know, and it's like, sometimes I wish we had that as adults is, I wish we were just go, okay, we can both deal with this.

You can, you can like purple and I can like green and you know, the sky could be blue, you know. It is okay. Again, I can still think you're a shitty person and you can still think I'm a shitty person. Doesn't like, we haven't got to the conclusion of that yet. That's not what the whole love thing is about.

It's understanding to understand. It's not understanding for there to be a conclusion of who's right, who's wrong. And so I'm, I'm gonna give an assignment today. And I just, I, I think it would be really cool for my listeners to do this. So pick a recent disagreement. And Joe, we can kind of think about this and, and do this in your mind.

Jot down a recent [00:36:00] disagreement and think about the, their conclusion in one sentence. Okay. All right.

You got it? Mm-hmm. All right. So you're, you're picking up, I won't ask you who it was or what the disagreement was. Okay. But then there's mentalization based therapy, which is MBT. And it is what do I, what do I believe? What do I believe you believe right now? That's kind of the question that you ask.

So right now, now that you've got their conclusion, and listeners again, think about the disagreement. All right? Now you know their conclusion. Either write it down or if you're driving mentally, what is their conclusion? And then ask yourself, what do I believe they believe right now? Just what do they believe right now?

Okay.

And then [00:37:00] go and go. It sounds like they believe this because, blah. And what's interesting is if you have this interaction with somebody and you, and, and you have a disagreement when you come back and you say to them, it sounds like X. You believe X because of this. They may come back and say, no, you're fucking nuts.

You're way off. Or they may clarify a little bit or they may go, but you want to get to a place where they go, exactly, exactly. That's exactly what I, that's exactly what it sounds like. That's exactly where I'm coming from.

And then you can sit there and then you can go and say, yeah, mentally just go. Do I see their logic? Yeah, I see their logic. I see your logic there. That's all, that's, [00:38:00] that's all that's needed in that state, in that stage. There's not a rendering of validation or that they're right or they're wrong. It's just, can I get to, the challenge is really up to me to get to their logical path and I, I don't know.

I mean, I can see it. Don't agree with it. And, and that's what's so funny is I can't, I have not on this particular one in my mind, I cannot sit there and go, I see it and end it. Put a period at it, just end it. I still wanna go. I see it, don't agree with it, see it, don't agree with it. And so that's about me and my shit.

It has nothing to do with them, has, you know, and or may or may not have something to do with them. But, but again. I get to sit there and go, can I see their logic without dropping mine? Can I hold [00:39:00] those two dualities? And I, you've heard me talk about an ex-boyfriend of mine from way back when, Brett Paselli and he's connecting New York Italian and he just would, I was a runner and a permit runner down in Austin, Texas at the time, and.

He would, I would go down to the city and I'd have to get permits and I'd have to, you know, and they would just drive me nuts. And and he said sometimes, Christine, you have to participate in their insanity.

And that helped a lot. And I know this isn't the quite. Probably therapeutic way to read this or to state this, or maybe my little take on being sarcastic or whatever. But okay. Sometimes I have to participate in their insanity. Sometimes I have to get [00:40:00] to a point of view or a logic, a place of logic that doesn't seem logical to me.

And then what's really funny is sometimes I remember people say that about me and that. When they're listening to me today, they may be going, man, she's off. You know? I mean, how many times have people given me grace? Because I've been the one who's been a little bit off where they've had to step into my logic and look at my history and my baggage and go, man, I wish you'd go to therapy.

You know? And so I think, again, this is about getting to a place of humanity with somebody. It's not about a place of agreement, it's just about being willing for me to step outside of me and step into their process. And it's being intentional and I think Joe, one of the best things that can come out of this, [00:41:00] even if it's not in that situation.

Is that it? It allows me the practice of stepping into somebody else's logic. It may not be there that I get that understanding. It may not be there that that movement, that there's a movement forward on that issue with that person. But it may be, I've done it, that person today and this person tomorrow, or three people today and 10 people tomorrow, or one person, you know.

But I start to get in the practice of getting outside of my own head. My own thought and my own echo chamber, my own logic without having to lose my logic or to lose my bearing

or defend it. So that's your little assignment. Next time you get into something, a recent disagreement, or getting into a topic where you're like, Ooh, [00:42:00] disagreement's coming up. I can see it. Ask your question, what do I believe they believe right now? And then once you do that, say, say to them, it sounds, seems to me, it sounds like this is what you believe, or this is your challenge because of X, Y, and Z.

And you want to get to a place where they go Exactly.

And then in your head, go. Do I see their logic without dropping mine? Or do I wanna change my logic or is there anything I wanna do with that?

So this has been an interesting segment for me. I didn't think this was gonna go this way. It always is. These are always really interesting to me when we get off topic, not off topic, but it diverts into, the, the notes that I don't have. So ladies and [00:43:00] gentlemen, you can hold two snapshots, one landscape at one time.

Okay? You can hold two different pictures of the same picture. It's called understanding. So the next episode we're gonna tackle is validation. And, that ought to be fun. That ought to be a whole bunch of fun. So until next time, ladies and gentlemen, tubs. [00:44:00]