When Hurting People Come to Church

Show Notes

Mental health professionals are equipping churches to better care for hurting people in their communities. Shaunti Feldhahn and Dr. James Sells join Dan Ehrman on The Church Around the World to discuss their book When Hurting People Come to Church. Shaunti and Jim share a new vision for churches to engage in discipleship and outreach while becoming places of hope and healing. By empowering church members, congregations can create opportunities for evangelism, discipleship, and growth.

Drawing on surveys of 2,000 church leaders, bestselling author and social researcher Shaunti Feldhahn, together with psychologist and professor Dr. James N. Sells, show why this is the church’s moment. Now is the time to bring healing to the hurting and build healthy communities of care—for today and for generations to come.

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Episode Links:
When Hurting People Come to Church
TheChurchCares.com
Shaunti Feldhahn
James Sells, Ph.D.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Dan Ehrman

Director of Church Relations & Strategy - Tyndale House Publishers

What is The Church Around the World?

Host Dan Ehrman from Tyndale House Ministries invites you to join him for The Church Around the World podcast for important and impactful conversations with church and ministry leaders. They'll share stories about God at work, His people, and what's happening in faith and culture that's shaping the local and global church today. From your neighborhood to the ends of the earth, listen to these powerful and timely testimonies of blessings and challenges directly from the people that are helping build up the church around the world.

Speaker: The church around the world in speaker:
conversation with influential speaker: church

Speaker: So join us as we look out to the fields
already ripe for harvest. Speaker: From your

Speaker: Dan Ehrman. Speaker: Welcome to the
church around the world. Speaker: I'm Dan Ehrman,

Speaker: and I'm joined by Doctor James Sells and
Shaunti Feldhuhn. Speaker: both of you are

Speaker: It's a pleasure for me and I'm sure
Shaunti also to be here. Speaker: Very much so.

Speaker: You serve at Regent University and have
been there for twenty speaker: some odd years.

Speaker: I honestly don't know how that happened.
Speaker: Wow. Speaker: A lot of languages too,

Speaker: but before we get into like the book in
itself, how did you speaker: two connect with each

Speaker: I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm glad to be speaker:
doctor Sells when I have to be speaker: doctor

Speaker: My job is to know my place and, .
Speaker: Oh, wow. Speaker: That's awesome.

Speaker: Dad. Speaker: Okay, so here's here is how
we connected. Speaker: So for this is I'm going to

Speaker: Because it's really interesting how God
works. Speaker: probably about five years speaker:

Speaker: And they said, we were in the middle of
this conversation speaker: about that project.

Speaker: And there were some examples that were
given of depression speaker: and mood issues.

Speaker: And I said, yes, but let me finish this
one first. Speaker: And so a few years ago, a

Speaker: Because I have felt for years that this
was supposed to be a speaker: topic that I'd be

Speaker: No offense. Speaker: Shaunti. Speaker: I'm
like, it's okay.

Speaker: None taken. Speaker: They're like, we
really think that the Christian community and

Speaker: And I thought, , Regent University has
such a speaker: strong reputation, especially in

Speaker: Is there anybody that I need to speaker:
talk to who could kind of lead speaker: the way?

Speaker: So yeah, and I came that speaker: that
meeting with Shaunti on the speaker: phone, I was

Speaker: I think that there's a place to speaker:
rethink how we deliver mental speaker: health

Speaker: And then Shaunti, and I got connected
around, oh, we need to speaker: build this out for

Speaker: This was written for you. Speaker: It's
not an academic book. Speaker: we built out the

Speaker: But the book is written for churches who
want to figure out speaker: how to do it. Speaker:

Speaker: It was such an obvious God thing.
Speaker: Like, what are the chances that speaker:

Speaker: Yeah, Lord. Speaker: Like you are
amazing, Lord. Speaker: And so yeah, we are super

Speaker: Mhm. Speaker: That's huge. Speaker: Well,
I view what the work speaker: that you have done

Speaker: And if it gets serious, refer people off
to a professional. Speaker: And it's really not

Speaker: And here in, when hurting people come to
church, you're speaker: really proposing a way to

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: a metaphor just came to
mind. Speaker: Hadn't thought about this one

Speaker: But you don't you don't get better in a
hospital. Speaker: You get better at home.

Speaker: Right. Speaker: under acute medical care,
speaker: twenty four over seven, we're speaker:

Speaker: And every physician, every speaker: nurse
who works at a hospital speaker: know the goal is

Speaker: I help control symptoms and help improve
the context in their in speaker: their family and

Speaker: One of the things that Jim and speaker:
many other clinicians that I've speaker: talked

Speaker: And so the rest of us, the average
volunteer in the church, speaker: the average

Speaker: I don't know what to do. Speaker: I don't
want to do damage. Speaker: So I'll refer to the

Speaker: But the problem today is that speaker:
there just aren't enough speaker: specialists and

Speaker: And keep both and have both and not one
or the other? Speaker: because it's kind of gotten

Speaker: And the irony is that what I was saying
is that for Jim and the speaker: other clinicians

Speaker: And if the counselor is doing speaker:
their job, according to Jim, if speaker: the

Speaker: And so the church's wait, they send them
to people, they wait. Speaker: And then if the

Speaker: That's the that's the promise that we
think is so important. Speaker: I love the vision

Speaker: And I don't think we can really do
justice to, what speaker: everything that you did

Speaker: And then we helped we developed speaker:
the questions together and then speaker: and

Speaker: So we have the mega churches there.
Speaker: Yeah, we had six hundred churches, less

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: So we have everybody in
between. Speaker: And we have, was it two speaker:

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: Over fifty. Speaker: We
tried really hard as part of this research project

Speaker: And so you have all the different ethnic
church speaker: communities, all the different

Speaker: This is the body of Christ. Speaker: This
is everybody has a different opportunity. Speaker:

Speaker: Oh that's huge. Speaker: So I mean, you
undertake a project like that. Speaker: and it

Speaker: was there like a core speaker: question
that you were looking speaker: to address?

Speaker: The main, so there's a classic speaker:
what's called a mixed methods speaker: study.

Speaker: One topic, which is, what are you already
doing? Speaker: Mhm. Speaker: And then

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: And then as part of that,
we also got a ton because Jim had speaker: tons of

Speaker: What are their perspectives on mental
health? Speaker: And that's where we found some

Speaker: Like, let's ask about these things that
we heard and try to speaker: figure out what the

Speaker: And then, , another few. Speaker: And so
it sort of somewhat agreed. Speaker: So it ended

Speaker: And yet those same pastors speaker: also,
I think it was ninety six speaker: percent.

Speaker: And so there's this speaker:
contradictory tension where so speaker: many

Speaker: Mhm. Speaker: Wow. Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Faced with that situation, I speaker:
love where you've landed with speaker: this where,

Speaker: Yes. Speaker: You were there, too.
Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: My apologies. Speaker: and, but in that
you both presented then the, speaker: some

Speaker: You need to, you need to let Jim describe
it. Speaker: Because when he first showed me

Speaker: And he drew it on a whiteboard at Regent
and I was like, okay, speaker: you're blowing my

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: you guys are making it
sound like, equals MC speaker: squared or

Speaker: Kind of was. Speaker: I'm sorry. Speaker:
It's so simple.

Speaker: And yet every pastor I've shown this to
has gone. Speaker: So I don't think I don't think

Speaker: You are like so it's real simple.
Speaker: About eight to ten percent of speaker:

Speaker: The very top point of the triangle.
Speaker: because this picture of pyramid, we

Speaker: There are some people listening to this
podcast. Speaker: That's their experience.

Speaker: And then the middle third of the
triangle, roughly about thirty speaker: percent

Speaker: And you your five years clean and sober.
Speaker: maybe there is a pattern of depression.

Speaker: Your you have a serotonin reuptake
inhibitor medication. Speaker: And that has been

Speaker: You are you are still under doctor's
care. Speaker: Still seeing a therapist. Speaker:

Speaker: But you're not laying in bed speaker:
unable to get out and unable to speaker: move.

Speaker: You have pain. Speaker: Everybody gets
that. Speaker: There is no there's no free pass.

Speaker: We all know what it's like to, speaker:
to grieve when our parents speaker: die. Speaker:

Speaker: To be discouraged or be anxious. Speaker:
To be fearful. Speaker: we know what it's like to

Speaker: Like we know those common emotions and
they're painful. Speaker: They hurt. Speaker:

Speaker: And if we don't, we're probably speaker:
back in the eight to ten speaker: percent.

Speaker: Yes, we all know that. Speaker: Now
picture everybody in that triangle. Speaker: The

Speaker: they seek first forty percent of the
United States, speaker: not just Christians, but

Speaker: The top point or whether you're deeply
saddened speaker: and discouraged because your

Speaker: Everybody goes, no matter the speaker:
problem, through the very top of speaker: the

Speaker: And think of the second triangle.
Speaker: If the first triangle is like the need

Speaker: So then the top of the the speaker: the
triangle there is the pastor speaker: and then the

Speaker: Celebrate recovery. Speaker: Stevens
ministries, reboot, regeneration, grief, share,

Speaker: And then there is the bottom speaker:
part of the triangle where speaker: everybody

Speaker: I know what some of these lifelong pain.
Speaker: I know what it's like to lose your job.

Speaker: If I wasn't a psychologist, if I speaker:
was just, like, an accountant speaker: going to,

Speaker: And it's, I don't do it because I don't
know how. Speaker: And I can say it's not that

Speaker: The best person who ever did speaker:
this in my life was my speaker: grandmother, who

Speaker: she can attend to other, Mothers in the
neighborhood speaker: South side of Chicago in

Speaker: And they've been taught how and in many
ways, like in my speaker: experience, most

Speaker: How do I get involved in this to kind of
release them it to the speaker: delight of doing

Speaker: I don't want to be referring out, nor do
I want to say, speaker: the church is supposed to

Speaker: And they note here is. Speaker: Yeah,
that. Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: And they still need the church. Speaker:
So having said that, Dan, go ahead and read your

Speaker: And, what, what can that journey be?
Speaker: for the local church where there speaker:

Speaker: And I think there's an element speaker:
of being poor in spirit is speaker: always may

Speaker: What do you mean? Speaker: What does that
look like? Speaker: Imagine.

Speaker: And I'll and I'll give you an example of
a conversation that I speaker: had with a pastor,

Speaker: but Jeff and I are getting speaker: ready
to do this marriage speaker: conference at this

Speaker: And it's basically trying to equip people
because the book speaker: gives them the what and

Speaker: Because both the book and the church
cares, I think would speaker: be really helpful to

Speaker: Like it when people come in, speaker:
they speak to him for once or speaker: twice, and

Speaker: And he said, but I don't know what to do.
Speaker: He said, just yesterday, this was a

Speaker: He said, after I taught, you know, after
the church service speaker: breaks up, everybody's

Speaker: And she, , she came up to me in tears and
said, pastor, speaker: I need to come speak with

Speaker: I don't know what to do. Speaker: I need
to come see you. Speaker: And he was like, I, , of

Speaker: I said, of course, here's my assistant's
number, ? Speaker: And he said, but I felt so

Speaker: And so I know I'm just going to refer her
out to a counselor. Speaker: And I said, okay, let

Speaker: Imagine that you could have said speaker:
to her, I'm so sorry that this speaker: happened.

Speaker: So maybe, , three weeks. Speaker: But in
the meantime, there's something that I want to be

Speaker: And Bonnie is a retired nurse speaker:
who is part of our congregation, speaker: and she

Speaker: And I happen to know that one of those
women in that group of speaker: listening

Speaker: And I said to the pastor, speaker:
imagine that you could have done speaker: that.

Speaker: Instead of calling my assistant, I'm
going to have Bonnie. Speaker: I'm going to get

Speaker: But it may be weeks and this speaker:
gives something to happen in the speaker:

Speaker: Jim isn't allowed to go have speaker:
dinner with his clients on speaker: Thursday

Speaker: Mhm. Speaker: Mhm. Speaker: And long
term, Jim, kind of what speaker: you were saying

Speaker: It reminded me a little bit even of like
how, , post speaker: World War two and all of the

Speaker: And I, my job is. Speaker: to stabilize
people around speaker: symptom management and in

Speaker: I don't go to my clients speaker:
funerals twenty five years after speaker: I've

Speaker: I get to see people get better. Speaker:
but I don't carry their getting better day to day,

Speaker: That's huge. Speaker: That's huge.
Speaker: Well, one of the things I'm most speaker:

Speaker: and like, do you see there speaker:
being, I, because churches have speaker: like this

Speaker: And, churches exist to speaker: disciple
people into speaker: relationship with God and to

Speaker: Yep. Speaker: Your story is in that book
for the church that is, speaker: has hesitation

Speaker: Your stories in that book and speaker:
our job is not to define speaker: theologically,

Speaker: Well, here's the core that's underneath
it. Speaker: Like, let's get at when you peel away

Speaker: Like it? Speaker: One of the many things
that one speaker: of the many quotes we put in the

Speaker: It's there are plenty of Pastors like on
the survey who said, you speaker: know, we're

Speaker: And there were plenty of them. Speaker:
Maybe not, maybe not the majority. Speaker: It

Speaker: I'd have to go back and look. Speaker:
But a small, , a small speaker: number, but still

Speaker: There is no such thing as speaker: mental
health apart from speaker: emotional health and

Speaker: You can't say, oh, well, that's just your
feelings and that's speaker: just your thoughts

Speaker: And yes, if there are specialized needs
for symptom speaker: reduction, because there are

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: Mhm. Speaker: Well,
throughout the book, you had some great quotes

Speaker: One of them was, Henry speaker: Blackaby,
watch for where speaker: the Lord is working and

Speaker: I. I think the mental health speaker:
crisis is human made and speaker: I see God's work

Speaker: And, world war two speaker: created an
emotional need for speaker: people who would

Speaker: Right now, you could say it's human
narcissism. Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: Probably is.

Speaker: People are too, are too focused on their
navel gazing. Speaker: Very fine. Speaker: I want

Speaker: like, because that's where a speaker:
solution towards the speaker: mental health crisis

Speaker: And this is not hyperbole, but all the
research that's ever speaker: been done is that if

Speaker: All the data is really clear on that.
Speaker: And so it's there is a I know you're

Speaker: We've got the hope of Jesus Christ.
Speaker: We've got the answer of the only speaker:

Speaker: One of the things that we're so speaker:
excited about is because it's so speaker: easy to

Speaker: Like, of course the operational stuff
comes along with it. Speaker: And yet, how

Speaker: You can find it here. Speaker: And we're
speaking your language to boot. Speaker: So that's

Speaker: Yeah. Speaker: Me too. Speaker: Well,
Shaunti Feldhuhn, doctor James Sells.

Speaker: Really an honor to meet with you here.
Speaker: I'm super excited for the church.

Speaker: I mean the laypeople in the church to get
engaged around speaker: this to deploy God's

Speaker: It's a privilege to be here. Speaker:
Thanks so much, Dan. Speaker: And you mentioned

Speaker: The book is designed, as Shaunti said, to
take you to where speaker: the resources are.

Speaker: Once you catch the vision from speaker:
the book, there is the speaker: system of support

Speaker: I'm just super delighted for your work in
this. Speaker: Thank you for joining me here on

Speaker: Blessings to you. Speaker: You've been
listening to the speaker: church around the world

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