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Leadership transitions can either strengthen a ministry or splinter it.. The difference often comes down to one word: humility. Nearly half of all successions fail, leaving organizations fractured, donors unsettled, and missions at risk.
In this episode of Behind the Seal, Michael Martin sits down with Steve Woodworth, CEO of Masterworks and author of Lost in Transition, to unpack why succession isn’t just about replacing a leader — it’s about safeguarding the future of an organization.
From “gone too soon, stayed too long” dynamics to the five key truths of leadership transition, Steve shares hard-won wisdom and practical strategies for navigating change without chaos. You’ll learn:
- Why every leader is an interim leader
- When to start the succession conversation
- How boards can prepare for healthy leadership handoffs
- What “no-drama succession” looks like in practice
- How humility, not ego, makes or breaks the process
If you’ve ever asked “How do I leave well?” or “How do we choose the right next leader?”—this conversation is essential listening.
📖 Learn more in Steve’s book Lost in Transition
🎧 Subscribe to Behind the Seal for more conversations on leadership, faith, and organizational health
🎧 Subscribe to Behind the Seal for more conversations on leadership, faith, and organizational health
About Steve Woodworth:
With over forty years devoted to advancing Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth brings a wealth of expertise in marketing, management, and organizational development. He steered World Vision’s direct marketing and donor services through a decade of annual double-digit growth in the 1980s and 1990s. Since joining Masterworks in 1992, Steve has been instrumental in establishing it as the premier marketing agency dedicated to aiding hundreds of Christian organizations in achieving their mission. Steve also gives back as a volunteer on boards, as a convener of industry leaders and continues to lead the Communications Working Group for The Lausanne Movement.
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Creators and Guests
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
BTS S3 Steve Woodworth Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] Steve Woodworth: Where things blow up, there's usually somebody whose pride is involved. Every leader has a certain amount of ambition that God gave them as part of their personality. That can easily lead to, "well, I gotta make my mark and you get out of the way. I want the credit. I don't want to have to share it with you."
For an incoming leader to respect the outgoing leader and to want them still involved, takes humility. Humility is, it's like the oil that makes the machine run smoothly.
[00:00:30] Ryan Gordon: Leadership transitions are some of the most defining moments for organizations handled well. They strengthen trust and paved the way for lasting impact handled poorly, and they can fracture teams or even derail a ministry's mission. In this episode, Steve Woodworth. CEO of Masterworks and author of Lost in Transition shares lessons Every leader needs to hear about navigating change with wisdom, courage, and humility.
If you've ever wondered how to finish strong and leave a legacy worth carrying forward, this is a conversation you can't afford to miss. Let's dive in.
[00:01:12] Michael Martin: Steve, it's good to see you, my friend. Welcome to the ECFA podcast. Yeah, thank you, Michael. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, you bet. Well, hey, we are here today to talk about lost in transition.
So for those who are. Watching this podcast, I'm gonna hold up a copy of Steve's book, uh, lost in Transition. Make sure I get it right there in the shot. Uh, but this is a book that's about succession and what you've been able to see in ministry. So much of what I appreciate about this is with this being ECFA's behind the SEAL Podcast.
I feel like your book, when it comes to succession. It's like behind the scenes of succession and, uh, what has gone well, um, also challenges that ministries have faced in this area. So really thankful to be able to have this conversation today.
[00:02:01] Steve Woodworth: Thank you, Michael. I'm, I'm happy to have you help me get the word out there.
I, I, I wrote the book because my heart was just burdened with having seen so many bad successions at Christian Ministries, about 50% I figure of the a hundred plus that I've witnessed in my career, and so. I just want to get the, um, concepts out there that I think can help people avoid the problems that I've seen.
Yeah. And
[00:02:26] Michael Martin: 50%, it's not a great statistic. So you're saying no one out of every two
[00:02:31] Steve Woodworth: transitions has not gone well? Yeah, and it's the same as the world. McKinsey did a study of corporate transitions and, and estimated that 46% were bad and failures. And, um, I, I was guessing before I read that statistic that about 50% of all the ones I've ever seen have gone badly.
And I asked other industry leaders, people like yourself, people that that, uh, know a lot of of ministries, and everybody [00:03:00] estimated about 50%. Even an executive recruiter estimated that his own firm, which I think is one of the leading firms, was probably about a 50% success rate. Not that the other 50% were disasters, but just, you know, 50% were, were the, the board would've been really satisfied a couple years later.
Really happy. Yeah,
[00:03:20] Michael Martin: well, we can do better. And that's, so your book is here to Yeah, it's here to help us do, and, um, especially appreciate you coming on too, because as I was sharing with you in the world of ECFA with, you know, over 2,700. Accredited members represented by ECFA, you know, uh, and really kind of the season that we're in where there is so much transition that is taking place, just felt like this would be a really helpful conversation for leaders, uh, for boards of organizations.
And so we're looking forward to the council that you'll give us today on the podcast and of course in your book as well. Uh, but maybe just starting on a personal note, one thing that I think is special, Steve, about this book is, uh, not only were you writing about. You know, things that you have seen and observed, but you have also recently yourself, uh, been in the process of personally experiencing transition, which I think makes it even more interesting.
So maybe let's start there. Uh, before talking about some of the other things that you've seen and heard, uh, even just for you personally, what have you learned as you've been in process personally with transition?
[00:04:29] Steve Woodworth: Yeah, it's, um. It's, it's interesting, I, I was in the middle of the transition and still am with Brian actually.
We were toward the front end of it. And so he was supportive of me writing a book on it. And it's become something that, um, helps me feel to determined to continue to do it right and Brian too, because, uh, hey, I mean, we don't have any credibility if we don't do it right after I wrote a book about it and, um.
The principles are not that hard, but they're, they're, they're kind of hard to, uh, practice some of 'em in the moment. And it's a, it is such an emotionally charged event, you know, I mean, even in, even as I'm writing a book about it, I am having times of like, you know, what did Brian mean by that? And why did Brian not invite me to that meeting and all the things that happened in.
In successions that take place. So, you know, with, with the in incoming leader and the outgoing leader overlapping, which I think is the healthiest way to do it, that, and we could talk more about that, but, um, with, with, with, um, with Brian, I just have. Been reminded almost on a daily basis of the principles in the book, like clear, honest, open communication.
One, one time Brian said something in a conversation with our corporate attorney that made me think he wanted to get out of a contract. And I had never had a conversation like that in my career of like, how could we get out of this contract? And [00:06:00] the attorney said, you can't basically. And, and, um. And I started to churn on that that night.
Like, uh, what does Brian think? We just gonna renew on a contract that was negotiated in good faith. And, and I, I got upset about it and by, by 10 o'clock I realized I'm not gonna be able to go to sleep. And I lost a couple hours of sleep that night and I called Brian first thing in the morning, talked to him about it.
He said, you know, that. I realized that was a, that was not the right way to frame the conversation. And I, what I was really thinking was, is there a way to negotiate our way to a better deal that it doesn't seem like a reasonable deal now given where we're at? And I would never just renege on a contract and, and then he said, and hey Steve, isn't it cool that we're having this conversation less than 24 hours after you got upset?
But next time, call me 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night. Don't lose sleep over anything like that. That happens between us. Let's just always have. Really short, you know, closed loop communication on the spot. That's so
[00:07:03] Michael Martin: good. Well, that gets to one of the, we won't steal any of your thunder later as we talk about your five different recommendations, but I know one of those is around communication.
But I was, I was just gonna add to, um, I'm really thankful that you were able to work on this book in the midst of. Uh, experiencing transition and while it was all fresh, I know even for me, kind of being five years removed from stepping into this role at ECFA, um, my memory's already even fading a little bit of like what it was like to walk through that and lessons learned.
So I think it's just brilliant that you took the opportunity to write this, like right in the middle of when you were experiencing it. While all of that is still very fresh.
[00:07:45] Steve Woodworth: Yeah, that, that wasn't even so deliberate as much as it was. Um, I've been thinking about the book for years and Bill High, the founder of the Signatory, was somebody that I had been talking to about it, who had been encouraging me over the last couple years before I wrote it to, to write it.
And then finally late, late in, uh, in, in year, um, he told me, you need to write that book this next year. And he knows Brian and he knows what's going on with Masterworks. And he said. I think Brian is capable of covering you to take the time to write this book. And every year that you don't write it, some ministries are gonna have bad successions.
That could have potentially not gone bad. And so you, you really ought to prioritize it this year. So I did. And because Brian was taking over more responsibility, it allowed him to grow. 'cause I backed out about probably 25% of my time for a year to do this. Interviewing a lot of leaders. That was part of my process.
And, um. And yeah, so it, it just all worked out. I think it was, it was God's timing and God's plan and, and it worked out for all of us really well.
[00:08:49] Michael Martin: Yeah, I could definitely see that. Well, thank you for that. Behind the scenes, uh, glimpse into how it all came together. Um, so we'll get to in a moment, [00:09:00] um. The what we should do the to-do list, like when it comes to actually planning well, but maybe you could start with, uh, the to don't in terms of, uh, yeah.
What are some of the biggest pitfalls that you see when, uh, and by the way, this is, I, I think written in a way that both churches and ministries, all those different settings can benefit from this wisdom. But what are some of those biggest pitfalls when organizations fail to transition? Well.
[00:09:29] Steve Woodworth: I think that that, um, the things that, the, the two things I think that go wrong most commonly are, first of all, boards don't do it well.
And they, they, they don't know what they don't know. They don't get to do this very often, so they're not skilled at it. And when they don't handle it well, feelings are hurt or misunderstandings take place. There's a falling out, especially with the outgoing leader. So the board having a falling out with the outgoing leader is, is the, is the most common thing.
Second most common thing is the incoming leader, not respecting the outgoing leader. So what you have is in, in, in my, my experience, when the outgoing leader feels hurt, that's when the organization suffers because. They have a lot of goodwill. They have relationships with donors, with church members, you know, whatever the organization is.
And they also are usually, um, unless they've failed. So I'm not talking about a failed leader. Failed leader has to be moved out and, and those are messy too. So I'm, that's not really what I'm addressing in the book, but assuming a leader's been successful and. And it's just reaching a point in life where it's time for the next generation to come and take over to be groomed and so on.
That when that, when that leader that's, that's moving on is not respected, it is so emotionally intense, I mean. I, in my, even as I'm writing this book, I'm having times where I'm thinking like, what did Brian mean? And, and I need to talk to Brian about that. And I've had a plan in my mind of I want to stay involved because Masterworks helps ministries and I don't know what else I would do that would have the same kind of Kingdom impact, but I know.
It's time for next generation leadership of all the day-to-day operations and all the hard parts of the business. And, and yet it's still hard to, it's hard to let go. I had one pastor tell me, pastor of a megachurch, and he's the one who convinced me to that. This applies to pastors too. The, the principles I'll share a little bit later apply to pastoral successions and he said after, after he had groomed the guy for eight years to take over his senior pastor.
The first Sunday that the new pastor was walking on the stage, the, the banner went up there, the name lead pastor, and he said, I thought, wait a minute. I'm the lead pastor. And he's sitting in the audience and, and then he is like, [00:12:00] oh gosh, boy, this is, this is harder than I thought. Feeling real? Yeah. And then, and, and then in the, and then the, the, the, the new pastor who's been there for eight years but now is the new lead pastor, has talked about a project and a vision and so on, and for so forth.
The outgoing pastor who was there, you know, to sort of also endorse this guy is and celebrate the takeover of the responsibilities. He started waiting to hear his name, like, wait a minute. That vision was my vision and that project was my idea, and I raised the money for it, and it's sitting in a bank account and the least he can do is mention my name as being behind this.
And he said, when I, when I, when I got to that point, I realized. I have to take a sabbatical and mm-hmm. Go somewhere else and give him, I can't remember what it was, six months or something like that, is I've seen his common, um, especially in churches that a pastor that wants to stay involved in the incoming pastor wants the, uh, outgoing pastor to have a, a new role and, and stay with that as their home church.
Their a sabbatical really helps to, to manage those emotions and, and that, um. Just human nature of the fear of letting go and the fear of what do I do? I matter. My identity has been wrapped up in this job. Do I still have, uh, the, uh, the identity? Am I, am I a dinosaur? You know, that's a phobic fear for guys in my age group.
As you start to realize. I don't have the energy I used to have, and I, I believe that the, there are younger people, 20, 25 years younger than me who could lead this organization better than me and do, have, have more impact, do a better job. Then you just think, what am I gonna do? I, what am I gonna do with my life?
I'm, I, I don't want to just, uh, sit around. I don't wanna go play golf. I don't, I don't particularly like golf, but I also don't think that that's God's, I'm not bad at it. I just don't think that's God's plan for us. That retirement isn't a biblical concept except for the Levites at 50 years old. And I, I, I've thought about that and talked to a couple people about it.
I think it's because the, the work was so grueling, you know, ah, chopping up animals and moving things around and carrying things and all that, and they were, they were allowed to, to, um. Retire at 50 and stay under the covering. 'cause they also didn't have their own property and they were able to stay within the covering of the Levites.
But otherwise there's no, no, no profit retired, no King retired. I mean, they served until they passed away or until they were unable to to serve anymore.
[00:14:43] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, that makes sense and I do appreciate. Uh, you bringing out just the very real well, like we're all human, right? So we're gonna have those feelings associated with something as sensitive as a transition.
And yeah. Good on that pastor too, to recognize like, [00:15:00] Hey, I got a little heart check here and maybe need to take some time, which is good. Um, you know, just kind of thinking here too, um. In the thinking about the implications of, uh, ECFA world, you know, for everybody who's listening in and, uh, being an organization that's of course about finances, but also trust.
So I'd be curious too, Steve, to, to hear your thoughts on when succession doesn't go well, the implications that there can be for the finances and trust in organizations. What have you seen?
[00:15:38] Steve Woodworth: When, when the outgoing leader gets hurt, they will typically walk away, kind of like, take my ball and go home, and donors, uh, church members and so forth pick up on the vibes of that.
You don't have to disparage an organization to discourage donors from giving. I, I, I, I'll tell you my own, a personal story, a ministry that, that my wife and I supported for years. We really loved the CEO. He had a big impact on our lives and his, it was a content ministry about Grace and he, when he was doing the final transition, I said, tell me why I should keep supporting the organization because.
I realize now that you're done and you're, you're actually leaving that I was supporting you more than I was supporting the organization itself. And I don't know this new person and, and he gave me a really great 10 or 15 minute speech about this is really God's person that here's why I'm convinced the best days of the organization are ahead.
Here's why I'm convinced of that. I really believe you should keep giving. And so we did. Now, if he had just simply said. Well, you should just pray about whether God wants you to give and I, and if I sensed a heaviness and his spirit and everything, we wouldn't have continued to support that organization.
And I've seen, I've seen ministries where the leader has left and has not gone public with any kind of disparagement of the organization, but the income has dropped by 50% over the next three, four years. The major donors are the ones that go away. Yeah,
[00:17:21] Michael Martin: no, those are some very real consequences. Well, I think you were already touching on this a little bit even, uh, uh, in, in sort of your own experience in the story interacting with that ministry, but, uh, because it's one where, like you said, you're able to have a conversation with that leader.
You had the. Confidence and the trust, uh, in that transition. Um, so maybe tell us a little bit more about that. So to kind of turn it on its head, um, not the pitfalls of when things don't go well, but tell us, uh, 'cause I know your book even mentions a lot of these too, of just. The, uh, beautiful outcomes that can take place, uh, in those instances [00:18:00] when the transition actually does go very smoothly.
What does that look like?
[00:18:05] Steve Woodworth: Well, one of my favorites is that very same organization because that CEO. Was in his seventies and was in, was, uh, intending to slow down write books. He, you know, he wasn't gonna gonna just, um, retire, but he had ideas of things that he wanted to do and the younger leader had a lot of kids at home, uh, you know, still at home and wanted to suddenly started having these opportunities to take the organization international.
It had been a. US-based ministry publishing content, and all of a sudden they started to get invited into situations overseas. And so he asked the former CEO, would you be willing to take this trip and go, uh, and, and, and be a part, a part of taking this opportunity in the Middle East, I think it was. And he said, sure.
And he went and did it. And then all of a sudden one after another of those kept coming up. So the new CEO asked the old CEO to come back on staff and take the whole ministry International. And that's been happening now for. Three, four years. It's, it's broadened, its its impact around the world. And if, if he hadn't been respectful of the outgoing CEO, that wouldn't have happened.
And so that, that's just a beautiful thing to see a guy who's wi willing to step out, who's still supportive. You know, con Con convinced us to continue to give and then. A little while later, the organization has a need that he could fill and, and the younger leader calls him back and, and, um, they get along great and just a, it's a, it's a joy to watch and I, I think the best successions almost always involve the outgoing CEO continuing to have some kind of a role, like a president emeritus or something like that, a Goodwill ambassador with.
Yeah, with donors or with churches speaking in church, whatever the situation is that that outgoing leader, when they're still around and when the incoming leader calls 'em for advice, occasionally they feel great. I mean that even if the younger leader, like I, there was one organization, a large organization that everybody would've heard of, where I get the sense that the younger leader.
Doesn't feel necessarily that he needs the input of the older leader, but he wants him to feel respected and he wants to keep a good relationship. And he's grateful to the guy for having groomed him and mentored him into the job. And so he makes a point of calling him once a month. And I, I, I've had other people where they go to lunch once every other month and things like that, and that means so much to the older leader and you just.
You just see the joy on both sides of, of a succession like that, where [00:21:00] the two have become friends, really literally, uh, true friends and colleagues and mutually supportive of each other.
[00:21:09] Michael Martin: Yeah, and I would agree with you, I think in the instances that I've seen over the years, that's certainly the ideal situation, um, for the outgoing leader to remain involved in, in certain respects.
But are there also, um, ares say red flags, yellow flags? I don't know, warning signs, indicators of when? That's not a good idea. Uh, for some reason for. Maybe the outgoing leader to continue to be involved in some capacity. Are there some situations when that's maybe not the best idea?
[00:21:43] Steve Woodworth: Well, definitely if the outgoing leader is considered to not be successful, you know, I mean, that happens.
Uh, part of the 50%, uh, rate of, of, of bad successions is. PE board's picking the wrong people and, and it doesn't work out. They, they don't do well. And after it usually takes two to four years to figure that out. And when that happens, if the, if the leader thinks they're doing fine and the board thinks they're not, then that's a very awkward situation and there's no easy way out of that.
And then I've also seen situations where. The person has served really for, you know, in into, into the, a age where they're, they don't have the energy to do it anymore, and they really don't wanna do it anymore, and they've got grandkids and they're moving, you know, so they're moving away from the organization to where their kids and grandkids are.
And then that's fine. That's, that's healthy too to, for them to let go on both sides and, and, and let the person move on in their life to what they really want to do. Or sometimes they got a different ministry they want to get involved in and, and, um, or start a new ministry. In that case, if the organization is, is, um, sees the CEO as a successful CEO and they've been around for a while, I've seen organizations fund.
The new ministry helped launch the new ministry and fund it even, you know, 50% or something like that of the cost for three years or I've seen multiple situations like that and that that's, that's really cool to see too.
[00:23:23] Michael Martin: Yeah, I agree. I mean, just, uh, when an organization would take that kind of posture of support and generosity, uh, I, I believe God's blessing is, is attached to that.
Uh, and he does honor that. Well, um, I'd love for you to touch on, uh, and I think this has kind of already been in the background of some of the great wisdom that you've already shared with us, Steve, but, um. Speaking specifically about what you call these five key transition truths. Uh, love to just have you walk us through those.
Uh, what would be the first of those [00:24:00] transition truths that you found?
[00:24:02] Steve Woodworth: The first is that boards don't know what they don't know, and they don't know enough to do it well without help. Um, boards have a tendency to think that. For, because this is their most important job. Choosing the CEO is the most important job that the board has.
Maybe you would say equal, is making sure the finances are handled right. So I guess I can, in, in your presence, I have a little bit different window of looking at that, but boards in, in general think this is, this is the most important decision we're gonna make, let's put it that way. Um, in the, in a five year window or 10 year window or whatever.
And so we've, we've gotta do it right and we should be able to do it. They, they almost have this implicit assumption that we should be able to do it 'cause we're the board and they really don't know enough about the organization. Uh, a volunteer board typically meets two to four times a year for one to two days.
So. Probably averages about five days a year thinking about the organization and the CEO and the senior team spend 365 days a year thinking about the organization. 'cause even when you're on vacation, you're still thinking about it if you're a CEO right? You never totally get away from it. And, and so I, I believe very strongly that the best successions that I, that I've seen the board has involved the outgoing CEO.
In helping to choose their successor and also even more so the, the outgoing leader has actually helped groom their successor and had some time of overlap. But, but boards not knowing what they don't know has led to just a lot of bad decisions. There's a tendency too, that I've seen amongst my own clients where boards swing back and forth from somebody's strengths to, and weaknesses to the opposite when they choose the next person.
So you might have a person who's really passionate about the ministry, like, like a homeless mission in it. It's a person who will go and walk through the halls and talk to people and pray with them and things like that. And, but they're not really good at the business side and running the financials and the, the fundraising, they just have this big, big heart for the mission and donors are attracted to that.
And that can be a successful CEO. But a board will tend to go the opposite direction then. And the next person they'll hire will be someone who's. Much more focused on running the organization, building a team, growing the finances, and maybe they hardly ever leave their office and walk around and be with homeless people and.
Then, then that same organization will flip back to the other kind of person next because they, they miss that passion that the, the other leader. And so, um, I think it's, it's just important for boards to, to realize that they need the [00:27:00] help of, of the outgoing CEO. Or if that person isn't for some reason able to help 'em because maybe they weren't successful.
Some of the senior staff there, there are senior staff who are likely competent and doing a good job and, and know the organization well. And so that, that's, that's the first one. And. And, you know, my, one of my favorite stories is Rich Stearns at World Vision. When he was notifying the board that he was wanting to retire in, in six years, they, they were on these five year contract kind of thing.
Um, the board involved him in helping write the job description. They involved him in interviewing the candidates and they involved him in the final selection and let him make his case for what he thought was the, that the internal candidate that he had hired and groomed, he thought was the best. And he made his case and the board decided with them and hired Edgar Sandoval into the CEO role.
And Edgar's been very successful and really grown World Vision after, after a few years of it being flat.
[00:28:03] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you bringing that out. I think that is a really healthy starting point for boards just to recognize, right? We don't know, uh, what we don't know. Um, and being able to enlist the help of.
That outgoing leader, the senior staff. I was also curious to ask, what is your recommendation to, in terms of organizations bringing in some sort of, some sort of outside consultant or somebody who specializes in transitions to advise, to help the board see maybe what they're not seeing. Is that something you recommend in every case
[00:28:37] Steve Woodworth: or No?
Not in every case. Uh, but I, I think it's fine. I think if the board feels like they don't have, um. Enough understanding and expertise, and they really feel overwhelmed by the task. Uh, they, if they don't have a succession committee chair person who can spend a lot of time on it, for example, because that's, that's ne necessary.
If you're gonna do it without an outside consultant, then, then bring in a executive recruiter or, or consultant, but don't depend totally on them. You still. Need to make sure that the CEO is, is involved in the, the OR, and or senior staff. Like, like in the World Vision case I just mentioned, uh, at the final interviews, it was, it was Rich and the, and the VP of HR that were directly involved in.
And they brought this, this, this, um, you know, deep understanding of what the job entailed that no consultant could have really taken that, that place of, I think there was a consultant involved in there in that. Anyway, but it's you, you, you, you, you can over rely on consultants and just expect 'em to go out there, find five good candidates, bring 'em in, and the one that we're most wild with, we hire.
And, but you, you, you're, you gotta be careful of, of the shiny object syndrome because there will be people that will come [00:30:00] in that'll be like great speakers and make a great impression, but they don't, they haven't been leaders. I've seen this happen. I've seen people that are tremendous speakers get, get the CEO job and they've never built a team before and they fall flat on their face.
[00:30:14] Michael Martin: Yeah. I'm so glad that you, uh, mentioned the shiny object syndrome, I think is what you call it, right? Yeah. And, uh, I, I pulled out this as I was walking through the book as well, but you say, when Jesus selected his disciples, he didn't care about shiny objects or remarkable resumes. His chosen followers included uneducated fishermen, a tax collector, and an anarchist.
No recruiter would've put these 12 on their candidate list list, yet Jesus saw in them what others could not. So. I'm glad that you mentioned that, Steve. Um, that's all really helpful. And then I love your, your next truth as well about culture being king. Talk about that.
[00:30:58] Steve Woodworth: Yeah. The, um, the culture of the organization is everything, uh, uh, as you know, um, Michael and.
And that's why I believe that the success rate of internal successions is much greater than, I think the 50% is more like 70% success rate of internal candidates and 30% success rate of external candidates. Because the external candidates, you really don't know what they can do until they get there and they get into the job.
The internal candidates, you have a really good idea of what they can do, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and, and, and they've already absorbed the culture. I won't just keep talking about Rich the whole time, but I know you, you had Edgar on the podcast recently. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:42] Michael Martin: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:42] Steve Woodworth: And, and Rich described, and Edgar agrees that coming in from the business world into a Christian nonprofit is like landing on Mars.
It's like, you just don't, don't even that, that, those were Rich's exact words. And he, and he said, he said, I had no idea when that, when I got hired, this was Rich speaking. That the, that they, the staff expected me to be a spiritual leader. I was a successful business guy, and he said, the first week somebody asked me, what's your, what's your vision?
Has God given you a vision for. For the future. And he said, I don't even know where the men's room is yet. That's a great line. Yeah. And he said, we're gonna, we're gonna come up with a vision together now. No, God has not given me a special vision, but, uh, we'll work it out. We'll work on it together. And under his tenure, world vision tripled and after having been flat for some years before he got there.
[00:32:34] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that's good. And. Boards really doing the work of understanding the organizational culture. I appreciate how you mentioned too, that in a lot of cases, not every case, that's gonna mean that if there is a good internal candidate and someone who's been successful within the culture, that makes a lot of sense.
Uh. And boy, it's hard to choose a favorite out of the, these five [00:33:00] different points. 'cause I love the next one too, which is about humility. You call that the secret ingredient, and this is something that applies to, well, really everyone involved. Um, so talk about the importance of humility.
[00:33:12] Steve Woodworth: Yeah. That, that's what I just kept seeing is where things blow up.
There's usually somebody whose pride is involved in and really comes to the surface. Um, I mentioned that pastor who. We had a, a, a, an eight year process to groom somebody. And then the very first celebration of the, of the transition of the leadership, he's thinking about how come he is not mentioning my name and I, you know, wait a minute, I'm the lead pastor.
And so we all have ego get mixed up and everything. We all, we all have mixed motives that we wrestle with. And I think focusing on staying humble is, is, is really a key. And, and Brian and I talk about that a lot in, in, in our company. That just, just both of us being humble, him being humble and realizing that I built something that he doesn't know how to do, you know, in in the same way that I did, caused him to be willing to think about the difference between my ministry background.
I had a background at World Vision. That's part of why I keep talking about World Vision. Spent 12 years there and then came into the this agency. Marketing agency business. And I led it from, with a relational kind of construct that I learned from being in World Vision. And Brian came in from a, um, a Madison Avenue agency kind of background.
Uh, what, where the results every month were mattered. And he had to deliver every month. And he was a hard driver and he was intense with people and on the staff. And, um. When I started talking to him about potentially being my successor, I said, this is one of the first things we need to work on is you're harsh and I, and, and I'd like to see you mellow and, and, and rub, rub some of the rough edges off.
And I, I, and he, he, he was very open to it, very humble. He asked me for examples. I said, you know, more, several times you've come into meetings with the senior team and, and me and the four or five other top leaders. And you've come in with frustration. People around here just don't know how to work hard and you don't probably even realize it.
Every one of us thinks you're talking about us. Hmm. And, and that, that just creates this, this wall, this distance. And, and, and, and he asked me to call him out on that. And I kept calling him out on it like month after month after month. And at one point I told him, if you, if you're sick of hearing me, call you out on this, maybe we just need to adapt to you and, and, and quit trying to change you.
And he said, no, I, I, I get it. I don't want to do that. I want you to keep calling me out on it until I don't do it anymore. He doesn't do it anymore. And, and so yeah, humility just all the way around to, for a, for an incoming leader to respect the outgoing leader and to want them still involved, takes humility because they're every [00:36:00] leader.
It's gonna be a, CEO is, is, or, or a lead pastor has a certain amount of ambition that God gave them as part of their personality, and they wanna make their mark and they want to, you know, they, they want to be out, up in front of people and leading people, or they wouldn't be in that. Role and, and that can easily lead to, well, I gotta make my mark and you get out of the way.
'cause if, if you and I are working on it together and it starts to really take off, I want, I want the credit, I don't want to have to share it with you. And so it's al almost always pride, even with boards, when boards have a falling out with the outgoing leader, it's usually because they feel like, who do you think you are?
You know, this isn't your thing. This is God's thing and we're the stewards of it and you're not, and you're done. And. Get outta here. You know, you, when you're done, you're done. So yeah, humility is, is on part of all people is like, it's like the oil that makes the machine run smoothly.
[00:36:56] Michael Martin: Yeah. We're gonna use that at ECFA.
That's good. Um, I was gonna comment too, I mean, um, there's a common thread there too, even in, uh, the world of ECFA right? Humility is, is really the foundation of accountability. In situations we see where there's some sort of A-E-C-F-A standards, compliance issue or whatever it may be. Of course there's um, there's gonna be some technical issue of, okay, was it governance or the fundraising or the finances?
But Steve, so many times comes back to that issue of, uh, humility, either on the part of. Leaders or the organization, but just a, a willingness to be humble and to accept accountability. So I can see how that also translates into the world of transitions. Well, I think just to round out these last, uh, couple, in your list of five, you've already kind of alluded to these, but one of those is, uh, or number four, respect for your outgoing leader.
And then finally, clear communication. Makes it all go. Uh, is there anything else that you think would be important as it relates to, uh, communication, that final piece?
[00:38:04] Steve Woodworth: Um, I, I think just short accounts, I may, maybe the one thing I haven't mentioned is a lot of boards think that they should do this behind a curtain.
That, that they think that their mental model is if we talk openly with the staff about what we're doing. We've got two candidates, you know, so on and so forth. That's gonna upset everybody, but it's quite the opposite. If, if people know what's going on and are kept in the loop, they can, they, they may be uneasy, but they're gonna be 10 times more uneasy if they have no clue what's going on.
And. That, that happens too often where, where boards take this behind the curtain and come out and, you know, introduce the staff to the new person. And it just, everybody by then is, is, is freaked out about what does this mean for me and my job and my future? And they haven't had a chance to adapt to it.
They haven't had a chance to meet the person in a lot of cases. And [00:39:00] I think, I think senior teams should always. Meet the, the, the person that's, that's being considered even before the decision's been made because then they have a chance to say, this is just a, this is a good, good person. I like him or her and I, I could see the, that they're gifted and, and then they have much, much more relaxed feelings about it when the day finally comes.
[00:39:23] Michael Martin: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about that. Would you say in almost every case, that we should probably be communicating beyond our level of comfort? Yeah. Is that kind of a good Yeah. You can't over communicate. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I think so. The other, um, speaking of boards, I know a question, Steve, that we're asked a lot here at ECFA.
So we'll just put you on the hot seat today related to this topic, which is, you know, when should a board be thinking about transition?
[00:39:58] Steve Woodworth: Yeah, I think it depends on the, on the situation. I think, I think there should always be kind of a hit by the, hit by a bus, uh, um, scenario. Thought, you know. Uh, healthy organizations, typically they're, they're, the CEO will have a conversation, at least with a board chair to say, if anything happened to me, here's what I think you should do.
And if that changes, then they tell them, I think that's changed. You know, that person isn't as is doing as well as I thought they were. And you know, but, um, I'm told that Bill Bright, founder of Crew Campus Crusade. Used to once a year write a letter to the board and put it in a safe in his office. That was the two or three people that he thought should be considered for the um, next CEO of crew.
And that's an organization that's had multiple generations of really successful transitions and those people in that organization are. Are are really good friends. I've, I've watched the dynamic of the senior team and, and they're, they're just all good friends. And Steve Seller says it's because we're all oriented to leadership development as part of the culture.
I, I think I wandered off your question here, but, um, that's, uh, that's a, that's kind of a model of, of, um, of really a healthy, a healthy culture that that has led to some very good. Transitions generation after generation.
[00:41:28] Michael Martin: No, that's really good. Yeah. Key point of really bor should kind of be thinking about this at some level, probably all the time.
All the time.
[00:41:36] Steve Woodworth: Having a culture that's, yeah, that's the point I was gonna make was that the. A leadership development culture is really helpful so that everybody at any senior level is grooming people that could take them, take, take their place someday, and the CEO probably by the time you're 50 you should be really seriously looking at who, uh, has the [00:42:00] potential to take my job someday.
And even if you intend to work till you're 70, you're, you're, you're. Like I, I, I thought I had the person for, for masterworks when I was 50, and I worked with that person for a few years, and then I came to the conclusion that he wasn't, he wasn't the right person, and he came to the same conclusion himself.
And so I had to start over again. And you never know when that's gonna happen. So working on it all the time and having one or two or three people. Is, I think healthy. So it's really, it's really never too early. I mean, I wouldn't put it on a brand new leader that, okay, one of your first jobs is to figure out who's your successor, because they got too many other things to figure out.
Wait until after day one. How about that? Yeah, give, give 'em a couple of years maybe.
[00:42:45] Michael Martin: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Well, speaking of incoming leaders, uh, something else I'd love your thoughts on, because. Of course we're, we're all about trust here at ECFA. So how about for an incoming leader who's coming into a situation where maybe the transition was not handled as well as it could have been?
Not an ideal situation and, and some trust has been broken. What advice do you have for an incoming leader in terms of rebuilding some of that trust and I suppose even boards probably owning part of that too.
[00:43:17] Steve Woodworth: I think that, um, everybody needs to own what happened and why it didn't go well, and I think it should be not brushed under a rug.
I think it should be, like you say, if it's, if it's, if the board mishandled the situation, I think they should come clean and. And talk about openly about what they think they did that made a mistake. If they have had a falling out, like I said, this most, this is the most common thing that causes really bad successions is a falling out with outgoing leader.
I mean, more often with the board, sometimes with the incoming leader, but with the for, for the. For the board to try to repair that. You know, there, it's never too late to go say you're sorry and try to be reconciled. And, um, so for a, for an incoming leader, if, if I were coming into an organization that had experienced a traumatic, bad, um, situation with the outgoing leader, i'd, I'd see if I could make it better, try to figure out what happened, talk openly about it with the staff, try to figure out what can we learn from it, and then be determined to work together to avoid anything like that in the future.
[00:44:22] Michael Martin: Yeah. That's really good. Well, in the last couple minutes that we have here together, um, I know it's been what, it's probably coming up on a year or so, uh, since Lost in Transition, uh, has been out there, I know we've been hearing great things about the book, but just as you're talking with other leaders, uh, catch us up to Speed, what's kind of happened in the year since Lost in Transition was published.
[00:44:47] Steve Woodworth: The most gratifying thing to me, Michael. I, I, I was saying when I started working on this book, I, I knew it was gonna take about a quarter of my time 'cause I intended to interview at least a couple dozen leaders. I, because of [00:45:00] my experience, I know these people personally. I know what happened and they tended to process with me in real time, including really bad ones and really good ones.
And I wanted to talk to some of those people that I'd had some of the best ones and some of the worst ones. So I knew it was gonna take a while. And I used to say, if, if, if one organization has a good succession that was headed for disaster because of the book, I'll feel like it was worth writing it.
I've had one of those already that was literally heading for disaster. I've had many calls from people saying, I'm at an impasse with my board. Would you be willing to take a meeting with me and my board chair? And I've had a lot of those that seem like that's really helped turn the corner, but one in particular stands out to me.
It's an organization that was led by a founder and there were three business people on the board who were adamant that. This organization's grown really fast, so it's been really successful. And the founder was just reaching an age where they didn't want to continue to lead anymore, and, but they wanted to stay involved.
And these three business people had this mental model of, no, you can't stay involved. Like they were, they just thought about corporate America. Like, you know when when you're done with running Disney, you get outta the way and you go, you know. And, um, uh, the, and, and then there the, the best candidate was an internal candidate.
My own team, this was a client we were working with, this organization, my own team was absolutely convinced that this internal candidate was already running the day-to-day operations and was a, a, a really gifted leader. And, and their, the same three business people were saying, no, we gotta go outside. We gotta hire a business person who knows how to continue to grow this organization.
So it's growing, it's successful. Founder wants to stay involved. Internal candidate is strong. And but three business people are saying no, just by principle, we gotta go outside and we're not gonna have the founder stick around. The, the founder brought the board chair to meet with me. Uh, I mean, just on Zoom, but we had a conversation about it and I said, this is gonna be a disaster because if this person leaves, this founder has all the relationships that made this organization successful, and then you're gonna blow up.
The person that they have groomed to replace them. And that person leaves too. This is the kind of organization that's gonna go out of business if you let this happen. You've got to seriously slow down and prayerfully discern if, if, and don't let these business people just bring their paradigm, but let make 'em, you know, really evaluate this.
And he said, my view as board chair has been that I'm a facilitator, not, not the leader. And I said, I think in this case you need to be the leader. You need to say, this is what I really think we need to do. And he did. And he, he checked in with me by email about, I don't know, once a month, this is where we're at, this is what I've done.
I've set up this meeting. I'm, I'm being a leader. You know, and I, and he, he was encouraged by that particular, [00:48:00] um, by that, by that particular admonition I gave him that this. He, he could see that this train was headed for a cliff, so you've got to do something. And he ended up convening a session that was a day long where they all came together and they put all their cards on the table and the founder got to share what it was that they wanted to do.
The internal candidate got vetted, you know, with Grace and without hostility, and those three business people came around and the board unanimously voted to hire the internal candidate. And unanimously voted to ask the founder to stay on for a year, and then let's see what happens. And we'll reevaluate at the end of that year.
And everybody, I mean, there were some hurt feelings, just that they had to go through all that, but the outcome was, uh, unanimous and, and, and positive. And the organization's continued its momentum.
[00:48:54] Michael Martin: What a great testimony. Yeah. And may God, that made it worth
[00:48:57] Steve Woodworth: it for me, that was just like, okay, I got one.
Thank you. God, I got one that, that just was a disaster that we have averted.
[00:49:05] Michael Martin: Well, I believe there's many, many more of those stories to come and probably some you'll never hear, you'll, you'll never hear about. Uh, but that's okay. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Still being faithful to the assignment. So. Well, Steve, thank you so much, uh, for your work on this.
Thanks for your time. Joining the podcast today, thank you for helping us, uh, kind of walk through those transition truths and really see this as a matter of stewardship.
[00:49:30] Steve Woodworth: Thank you for having me, Michael. Thank you for getting the word out, and hopefully it'll help some of your members. And I look forward to talking to people that need help or, or, uh, more, um, you know, hearing stories from you that something positive happened.
That's, that's what keeps me going, not not selling books. It's, this is such a niche topic. I, I didn't do it to sell books. I did it to have an impact for, for the Kingdom, and I look forward to hearing that. Hopefully there are some of that for your members.
[00:49:57] Michael Martin: No, we definitely experienced that today. Thanks so much, Steve.
All right. Thank you,
[00:50:00] Steve Woodworth: Michael.
[00:50:03] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.