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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
6 Seasons of a Man’s Life: Part 1
00:00
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast with Restoration Project. This is Chris Bruno and I am here with a good friend, Mr. Jesse French. Good to be with you, Chris. Hey buddy. Good to be with you. I, um, I was thinking the other day about, so you and I and a bunch of people were out by a lake recently and your family was there. And I remember that when they all kind of like
00:28
got out of the car, your son case was he had it was this like perfect picture. He had he was wearing shorts, but he had a long sleeve shirt on like one of those outdoor kind of fishing sports kind of shirt thing that was like a wicking kind of thing. He had a hat on backwards, very bad. And in one hand, he had a tackle box. And in another hand,
00:58
He had his fishing pole and he walked up to me and I was like, Hey, case looks like you're going to go fishing. He's like, yeah, I'm going to go fishing. And he just like very matter of factly, like came up to me said, yeah, I'm going to go fishing. I just kept walking right past. Right. Like I have a mission. We line to the lake. This is Chris. There's, there's no doubt. What I am here to do. This is what I am here to do.
01:25
Which is great, because the purpose of that gathering, fishing was like a very small optional activity. It was not the main purpose for everyone else. Well, for him it was. I think it might he might have been the only one fishing. That might be true. Yeah. So anyway, that and then later in the day, I heard another person who's related to you say if.
01:49
like I think they were trying to like round people up and look for your family and whatever. I think your wife was trying to get the kids and get in the car and whatever. And I heard her walk up to you and I was like, if I were case, where would I be? You remember her saying that to you? I do remember her saying that. I'm impressed you're remembering all this. This is impressive. Yeah, yeah. So, and I remember very distinctly that you said, if I were case,
02:18
I would be down by the water with my fishing pole. I bet he's over fishing. So go look over there. Not with the people, not close to the people because the people were like swimming in the water and all that, they're scaring the fish away. He needs to be away from all the people to actually fish. So. Sorry. Yes. Very, very, yeah. Well remembered, very perceptive, Chris. Okay, well, thank you, thank you. I saw Case and I was like, you are just the quintessential little boy. Like.
02:49
Little boy. You're going to say I thought you're going to add to the piece like what his synthetic long sleeve shirt looked like at the end of the night. And it was I got home and saw him and it was kind of it's like a lighter blue, but it it's like he maybe rolled in mud. Like there was so much dirt on the front of his on the front of his shirt. Like, man, you were living well. So no, that was one of the.
03:15
To be honest, no, I did not. I could not add that information because I did not observe that information because once I saw, that was the one and only time I saw Case the whole entire night. So he was gone. He was gone. So I just like, what a quintessential little boy out with his fishing rod and on task, on mission, going for the water. Now granted, he has a father who is also quite enamored with fishing.
03:44
Oh, enamored. That's a better word than I thought you were going to use. Thanks. That's I like that word. What were you thinking I was going to say? I thought you were so addicted. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I am in recovery. But enamored. Let's go with that. Addicted, maybe enamored. But, you know, expert. I don't know what word you want there. But, you know, seeing you, seeing Case and then seeing all the kind of people in between, it got us thinking a little bit about the different seasons of a man's life. And
04:13
Like I said, Casey is so quintessential little boy, and I know that he's not sinless, but he just felt to me in that moment to be so, so deeply innocent. Like, look at this little boy. He just wants to fish. Like get out of my way. I just want to fish. Yeah. So one of the resources that we have here at Restoration Project, you guys probably have heard us talk about it and seen it is this book.
04:41
Sage, a man's guide into his second passage. And one of the things I write about and talk about in the book is the various seasons of a man's life. And so we thought today maybe to kind of unpack that a little bit as you're just using, using a case as a little springboard. Because the very, very first season of a man's life is represented by your son, right? And that is that innocent boy season, that innocent boy season. So.
05:10
Yeah. So unpack that a little bit. Gave a good example of that in my son. But like, yeah, give some more characteristics of what. Yeah. What that phase of a man's life is marked by. Well, yeah. And even as we get into the conversation, I find it helpful for me to have some kind of orientation to the journey through life. OK, right. As we talk today, thinking about your own kids, thinking about yourself as a boy, thinking about yourself as a child.
05:40
But then also like, where do you find yourself in these seasons is helpful to have just some kind of sense of like, where am I in this journey? And each of these is not meant to be a box. Each of these is not meant to pigeonhole somebody. And I want to be clear, like there's no definite delineation between one stage and the next. It's all blurry lines. And it is, it is this movement through the journey.
06:08
And so and yet it's helpful to go like, oh, I'm not there yet or I have been there before. Like that kind of sense, just what each of these characteristics is and helps. So that's kind of why I'm, you know. Yeah, because often it can feel I think like our journey is one of totally figuring it out as we go. And so even as you said, they're not definitive boxes, but even to just have some description or some language around.
06:37
what can be present is helpful and to have some sort of rough even lay of the land is needed. Yeah. And you know, there's, yes, it is needed rough lay of the land. And also some of the work that we always want to invite people to here at Restoration Project is a reflection on the season because sometimes, you know, we get stuck. We get stuck in spot. Right. And as we talk about our story.
07:04
Our story is made up of these seasons that we've lived and just to have a sense of like, okay, categorically, not pigeonholed, not a box, but categorically, I'm in this season. And then final thing I want to say, God actually calls us to be content in the season in which we find ourselves. Right? That there is a contentedness. Like I am in this season of my life and that is okay.
07:32
And it's, we have such this like draw to move on to the next season to grow become like move. Yes. And if we don't learn all the lessons of the season that we're in, we can't actually move into the next season well. And so there's this like, this is where I am. And this is good. And this is right. And this is holy. And this is who God made me to be right now. And there will be another season ahead.
08:00
And I can anticipate that another season, but I can't, I don't want to force the next season. Yeah. You're saying it's, it's very different than our schooling journey, right? Of, hey, sixth grade after six to seven, seven to eight, right? Where it's this very time bound, very linear progression, right? It's actually something that we choose to engage intentionally, but actually are not the drivers of when we complete that. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And also like even in your college career, right? Like,
08:29
in order to get this major, you need to accomplish this set of classes and then you can graduate with that as your major. It's not even that. It is more just like, you know, what is the territory that we're we're walking through? So I'm nodding my head and internally I'm eye rolling because I'm like, I don't like that. I like let's check the box. Let me do the prereqs and let's knock this out. Yes. Yes. For confession.
08:58
Good. So that's really helpful framing for us as we dive into or begin to think about some of this. So let's start in that innocent boy category that you kind of you laid out in the beginning. What are elements of that? What is that time of our life? How is that marked? Yeah. Well, I think it's like walking around with your tackle box in a fishing pole. I talk about in the book, there's two different ways that we can understand the word innocent.
09:25
One is like not guilty and the other is naive. And as I said earlier, like case is your son when we're boys, it's not that we are sinless, but most of it is that we are naive to the greater world. We're just showing up on the scene and we're trying to figure things out and we find our likes and our dislikes and how to relate and how to play with your sister and not hit your sister. Like.
09:53
all of those kinds of things you were trying to figure out, what is obedience and what is bedtime and what is, how do I learn and how do I put clothes on? And like all those kinds of things that you're just trying in that innocent, you're just naive. You just don't know. And the innocent season of our lives is meant for us to learn. It is meant for us to grow and have some sense of discovery of what is the world.
10:20
who are these people that are called my parents that I'm attached to and love and want to be around? Who are these other people in the house, my siblings? What does it mean for me to just be in the world and who is God and like all that kind of stuff is to learn. And I just picture, I picture Keith's kind of like, I don't have to worry about paying the heat bill tonight. I don't have to worry about what I'm gonna eat. I don't have to think about...
10:47
what class I'm going to take in three years. All I need to be thinking about is what kind of bait am I gonna put on my life? I was just gonna say, like that is the total thought process of is it words, is it applied? Like totally, that is the extent of the concern and focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the beautiful part I think is that actually God designs us to have this innocent space. It is where we are most formed. It is where our soul is most formed, our body is most formed.
11:16
The brain is forming, our sense of identity is forming in the context of relationships. And that is beautiful, and it is also the most impressionable season of our lives where we learn for good or for ill who we are, and we understand what it means to get in trouble and what it means to do right and do wrong and to disobey and all those kinds of things too. So we also learn what it means to get hurt.
11:46
and what it means to get hurt physically, but then also what it means to get hurt relationally and emotionally and like all of that kind of stuff too. So it's the learning season. So it's so good. And you could talk for hours about this, but I'll just ask this like, maybe some of the people listening could hear about this stage and like with nostalgia and a smile on their face and be like, oh, that's so great for my kids or whatever. This actually is a really important one that we don't.
12:13
as we get older that we don't just discard as the nostalgic, naive, innocent spaces and just sort of shut the book on that, but actually engage that in some deep ways. So you could say a lot about that, but why is this season particularly one that we need to be aware of and actually engage even as we get older? Well, I think especially because what has been written in our story happened by and large in the innocent season of our lives.
12:41
especially those hurts, the things that shaped us, the beliefs that we became to hold, that we came to hold about ourselves, those happened in that innocent season of our lives and also goodness happened there. And I think so many times we as adult men, we look back and we're like, I am not enough. I have, I am a sinful person. I...
13:07
we'll never measure up, I can't do it, or I'm not wanted, I'm not loved, like all those messages that we hold, I wanna just invite people back like, that was not always true. You weren't born that way. You weren't born not enough. You came to believe that you were not enough, but you weren't born not enough. You weren't born defective, you weren't born a pervert, you weren't born somebody who has X, Y, Z problems. Like, you were born.
13:36
born and designed by God in this sense of being innocent and naive to show up on the scene. And again, we were sinful from the beginning. I'm not debating that, but I'm also recognizing like, and you weren't a two-year-old murderer, right? Like your sin as a two-year-old weren't heinous. You had a proclivity towards it, but you could not actually be considered like
14:05
Would you judge yourself as a two-year-old the way that you judge yourself now? Yeah. Oh yeah. And- Of course not, right? No. Because you were innocent, and that's why it's so, so important. You didn't start this way. So that- Really helpful. That innocent boy season is really important for us to kind of look back into and hold. Likely, likely, maybe not, but likely, there are zero innocent boys listening to this.
14:34
That would be true. Unless they're like in the back of the car or something like that. Like, you know, there are very few innocent boys actually listening. Yeah. And one of the things that we'd also like to say is that we are all the ages we have ever been. So right now, inside of you, man, listening right now, you, Jesse, me is an innocent boy who is still resident there. Because the way that I think about it is not a journey like point A to point B.
15:02
And then from point B to point C, it is this concentric circles that the next circle subsumes the previous one. It's included within. It doesn't erase. It doesn't erase it. It is part of. It becomes part of it. Right. Yeah. So that's the first stage. What's next after the innocent boy? Well, I don't know if you're prepared for this as a father, but that little fisherman is going to start like sprouting hair in various parts of his body.
15:32
Yeah, he's going to start growing. He's you're you're not a short man. And so he if he's anything like you, is going to start growing like crazy. And you're going to have to like buy new clothes every week. Right. So the next the next season is as that innocent boy moves forward, just the natural progression is that he's going to go through puberty. He's going to start to become a young man. And so what I call it in the sage book is I call it the phallic man.
16:02
because he's gonna start becoming more aware of his sexuality and start going through that process of becoming a man in all the physical ways, right? Totally. So when we think about this season and even when we think about us reflecting back on what that season looked like for us when we were that age, give us some lenses or maybe just even some, maybe on ramps to thinking about
16:31
Why is it important for us to think about this phallic man season in a deeper perspective than, yeah, that's when I went through puberty. That's when my body went through massive physical changes. Why is there a deeper layer to that in terms of what we need to be aware of around that time? I would say, Jesse, it is in the phallic man stage where we become aware of other people.
17:00
And what I mean by that is, and not just like an awakening to who girls are, but an awakening also to my strength, my power, a sense of my size. I'm starting to, you know, when a boy your son's age wrestles you, it is hands down, you're going to win. But as he goes through and continues to test himself.
17:27
against your strength at some point, he's going to win. Mm-hmm. Right? And so there's this sense of like, who am I in relation to other people? How am I with women? How am I with other boys? How am I with men? How am I with older women? Like all that, who am I in relationship? And so much of what is kind of happening in that stage is really important to know like, am I valued?
17:56
by you and do I value you? Am I valued and do I value? And I think what happens for us as boys in our society and all that and around the sexuality is my value is great and I consume you because you're of value to me to be used and all that as, you know, sexuality comes online and things start to happen there, like there is a language, there is a posture that we learn of like, hmm, this is...
18:25
This feels good. I'm interested. I want, and I take versus I am now in a relationship of mutual value. And it's in that phallic man stage that we either learn that or don't or struggle with that. So when we look back on on some of that time of our life and ask some of the questions of becoming aware of other people and understanding value, Chris, I'm guessing that you would say, look, how we learned to answer those questions back then.
18:54
are how we continue to answer those questions today if there is not a significant level of awareness and work. Like we don't just come up with new answers to those questions when we turn 21 or 30 or 40. By default, those will continue unless there's some significant work attached. And so is that why, like, hey, we actually have to go back and have some curiosity around that stage and around how we've come to answer some of those questions.
19:22
Yeah, I mean, and like I said earlier, it's sometimes we get stuck in some of these earlier stages. And even though now, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30 years later, that I am no longer going through puberty, you know, and neither are you, we still hold that part of ourselves inside of us. Like I just said, it subsumes the previous season.
19:45
And so sometimes we get stuck in those things. We get stuck in that mindset. We get stuck in those stories. We get stuck in our guilt or our shame. We get stuck in our confusion. And we continue to live those things out today. And many times it's really unbeknownst to us that that's coming from that season. And it's not to go back and guilt ourselves of what happened back there, but it's to father ourselves and invite fathering now that we can offer that we didn't get back then to those parts of us that are still inside.
20:15
and help us unpack and learn and think and pray and wonder and talk to other men, like, what does this look like? How do you hold these kinds of relational space, this sexuality space, how do you guys hold it? Help me know what to do with that part of me. Because that teenager boy is still inside of me and he's still inside of you and he's still inside of everybody, so we need to do well there. And what ends up happening is that if we don't tend to those stories,
20:43
they will remain stuck and keep us stuck until we do. Fortunately, I think that some people, and I would say most people that are either listening to the podcast or part of Restoration Project or whatever, are men who are looking to heal these kinds of stories in their lives and also not pass on these kinds of stories to their children, to future generations. But I'll say by and large, most of us didn't get what we need in
21:13
the phallic stage of our lives, the phallic man state season of our lives. We didn't get the guidance or conversations or awareness or whatever, and we ended up living out of a lack. So I'm gonna ask this question that's gonna ask you for a sound bite, which I realize is something that's very complex is like, I'm gonna condense this into something short, but I'm gonna do it anyways. If you could say what the phallic boy needs in that stage, you just said by and large, we didn't get what, probably what.
21:43
we needed or what he needed. What does he need in that space of the boy, the young man who is in that season? Yes, that's a really good question. And here's briefly how I would begin to answer that. I would say what, and this is not how I would talk to that boy, but this is the way of thinking that I would bring. He needs to understand his holiness. Same one.
22:12
He needs to understand and have a sense that his body is a reflection of the character of God, and that the strength that he is developing, the height that he is developing, the man qualities that he is developing, the growth genitally that he is developing, like all of that is based out of
22:42
That's ultimately what I think in the phallic man's because when we don't have a holy perspective around ourselves there, and I'm talking mostly the physicality of it, but then also how the physicality engages that relationality, both like I said, with wrestling and your muscles or sexually and all that kind of stuff. When we don't have, I am fearfully and wonderfully made, I am these parts of me.
23:08
the parts of me in my pants, the parts of me in my biceps, like all that stuff, these parts of me are holy and beautiful and wonderful and reflect the character of God. Then if I don't have that and instead have these parts are, I need to prove myself or these parts are for my consumption or this aspect is so that I can beat you or like win and those kinds of things, or like I'm bigger than you or something along that.
23:37
like, or sexually, like, this is for my pleasure and my consumption versus for my engagement in a holy relationship, right? That's where we lose touch with ourselves in an awareness of like, this is actually who God made me to be. I would think very, very few of us receive that, right? Proof of what you just said a minute ago, right? Of like that type of affirmation, that type of blessing of calling that good.
24:07
Yeah. And I mean, I'll refer back to, you know, our friend Sam Jolman's book, The Sex Talk You Never Got. Like his whole posture there is like this is the sex talk is not about the it. I'll put it this way. A portion, a minor, small percentage of the sex talk is about the functionality of all the things. Sure. The greater talk is about awe. Yeah. And desire and design.
24:36
Like that is the greater conversation. And by and large, I can't tell you how many men, I would say probably most, are stuck in the phallic man's stage of their lives in some way because there is not a perspective of holiness that has been brought to it and to us and to him, that little boy, that teenager that lives inside of us. And I'm gonna say the phallic stage is probably, again, not hard lines, they're all blurred lines, but somewhere from
25:06
that, you know, 10, 11, 12, whenever puberty starts, really all the way up to kind of 25. When, and I say 25, because it's not, you know, 21 is not when you become adult, actually. Right, right. The brain in men doesn't fully form until you are somewhere in that 24, 25 year old. And so, you know, sorry, guys, we're kind of behind our sisters here. There you go. Yeah.
25:34
Chris, thank you for beginning to unpack some of those two seasons of those first two seasons. Those feel far more needed and significant than just, again, a nostalgic look back to the past, but actually those pieces of parts that again, like you said, are still with us and still require our presence and the invitation of Jesus to be with those parts of us in new ways. Yeah. And I think, Jesse, as we continue, you know, talking about these seasons, these stages,
26:04
One thing I want to say before we end on the phallic man piece is by and large, I would say that if there is a space where shame has taken up residence, it is here. It is here because shame and sex are always connected. Yeah. So it's not that we can't have shame about other things too, but by and large, you know, shame is living here. So,
26:34
Yeah. Well, we'll keep the conversation going in the next episode. How about that? So hang tight guys. Carry on. Thanks Chris.