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Join the Nerds!
Welcome to the funtastic world of the Fabulous Learning Nerds! Scott Schuette and Daniel Coonrod and Zeta Gardner are Learning Executives with over 50 years’ experience between them. Together they share new ideas, learning tools, approaches and technology that increase learner engagement and impact. All while having FUN! To participate in the show and community please contact them at learningnerdscast@gmail.com
The nerds are all about creating a community of learning, innovation and growth amongst educational professionals: Instructors, facilitators, instructional designers, learning and development professionals, trainers, leadership development professionals, learning metric gurus, sales enablement wizards and more. So, if you want to learn, connect, grow and have a good time doing it, The Fabulous Learning Nerds Podcast is for YOU!
Scott (00:06.174)
Hey everybody, welcome back to another amazing episode of your fabulous learning nerds. I'm Scott Schuette your host, and with me, you missed him, I did too, Dan Coonrod.
Scott (00:24.882)
Damn.
Daniel (00:26.714)
Scott What's up, Scott? How you doing?
Scott (00:29.126)
I'm doing okay. I am doing okay. How are you, sir?
Daniel (00:32.408)
I think we already know. I'm fair to Midlin. There it is, there it is.
What you been doing? What you been up to?
Scott (00:39.698)
All right. my gosh. my gosh. Okay. So, I I I gotta tell you a story because it's really kinda interesting. So it's been a minute since we've chatted, so that's cool. But what's my favorite holiday?
Daniel (00:56.456)
it's Halloween. Yeah.
Scott (00:57.276)
It's Halloween. Absolutely. Absolutely. My favorite Halloween holiday. Right. So the groovy thing is that, but it's not really groovy. It's it's kind of nowadays, holidays, the the season for buying stuff starts like halfway between when the holiday's supposed to start and the actual holiday. And so back in my gosh, June,
That's when the stores start putting on all their groovy spooky stuff. And what I have learned in the past is that like the really groovy spooky stuff that you want to have in your house goes right away. Like if you see it, you gotta grab it. So what happens is people like me that are into certain holidays, if you're into Christmas, the same thing happens. August, by the way, is when you want to start shopping for Christmas. If you're into Christmas, everybody, that's what you want to do. Okay. So we went to Cracker Barrel in the end of June and then poof, it's there.
Marlene Moyer (01:48.9)
Well.
Scott (01:52.97)
And there were some big pieces that were there that were that were like everybody's gonna wanna have them. I should have bought two. If I could have bought two, I would have, because then I could have made a lot of money, right? And so what happens is you end up getting stuff way before you need it. And so we have some stuff way before we need it. And so my and my wife Lynn, she she went and got some stuff too. And so what
What happened is we have this stuff and some of it we put up because it's going to be evergreen. We're going to want to have this really cool stuff. Like one's a lamp that looks like a witch hat. It's super groovy cool. You can't get it. It's worth about a million dollars now. I don't know. And so all of a sudden over the weekend, Lit Lynn was like, screw it. I'm gonna decorate. So now, if you were to come to my house now, today, walk into my house today, you would think that it's Halloween because it's all out. All of it's out.
Marlene Moyer (02:28.635)
Yeah.
Scott (02:45.414)
I don't know if what she did, she got a butter, she just like, I'm gonna put it all out. And she did, and I'm like, Holy smokes, like you gotta save some of it, but but you didn't so I guess I guess I'm gonna enjoy the next four months as if it were Halloween. And so that's kind of where I'm at. yeah, that's my life.
Marlene Moyer (03:04.584)
Thank you.
Scott (03:09.414)
Yeah. So
Daniel (03:10.202)
So straight up that sounds awesome. Like what are you talking about? Like come on, man. Halloween
Scott (03:14.642)
What do you mean that sounds awesome? 'Cause what's gonna happen is come come October, I'm gonna be so sick of it. Then I'll be ready to like I heard a story that yeah.
Daniel (03:20.89)
Will ya?
Will you really?
Scott (03:25.34)
Maybe. I don't know. But you know what I'm gonna do this year that I didn't do last year is last year I went out to all the events way ahead of time, like Halloween Horror Nights was in Octo August and whatnot. I'm going in October this year and then we're gonna go to a convention in October. So we'll in October we'll do we'll do the event stuff. But I mean it's full on.
Daniel (03:26.744)
No, I don't think so.
Scott (03:50.43)
Other than the things you'd put outside. Like if you just walk by my house you would have no idea that inside is like a total orange and black nightmare. Right. So I mean, that's kinda my life. How about how about you, Dan? Other than being tired of meddling.
Daniel (04:03.364)
Man, I I tell you what, year-round Halloween sounds awesome. I'll be driving around sometimes and there are still people with those giant like 12 foot like Halloween skeletons in their front yard. And I'll be like, yes, they get it. They understand it, and I'm jealous.
Scott (04:13.416)
They're
They do get it. You know what? I have to tell you, okay, have you ever heard of a store called At Home? At home free plug for at home. They're not a sponsor of our show. Okay. they're like this massive store where you buy stuff for your house, right? and a lot of it's it let's just be honest, it's all Chinese prefeb stuff, right? Okay, cool. But they they but they actually have twelve foot skeleton costumes that you can buy this year at at home.
Daniel (04:25.974)
No, no I haven't.
Daniel (04:38.672)
Okay.
Daniel (04:46.222)
What?
Scott (04:46.994)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can get the cowboy. You can get the you can get Santa. You could you could get all that stuff for your twelve foot skeleton, which I think is just totally, totally cool. You know what I'm saying? So
Daniel (04:48.848)
That's awesome.
Daniel (05:02.586)
That's yeah, that's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome.
Scott (05:05.318)
I think so. I do think. You know what's pretty awesome as well is we got some very, very important and special guests with us today. And I'm really excited and you're gonna be excited talking to as well. But we're gonna get to know all about in our little segment that we call What's Your Deal?
Daniel (05:12.036)
Yes.
Scott (05:25.99)
Okay, we got Marlene and Claudia. Hey, what's your deal?
Marlene Moyer (05:30.246)
Hey. We got a deal.
Scott (05:33.692)
Let's start let's start with you, Claudia. What's what's your deal? What's your story?
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (05:38.905)
What's my story? let's see. I am was a classroom teacher in the elementary school for about 24 years, and that's where I worked with Marlene. That's our deal together. And currently I'm an associate professor at Chico State, where I work with people who want to become teachers and especially
What I teach them is how to teach math. That's kind of my jam, is what I love, is how to teach math. so that's part of my deal. I'm a mom. yeah, and I really love the work that Marlene and I do together, the Tools Not Roles work, which we get to talk to you guys about today.
Scott (06:06.622)
Wow.
Scott (06:20.818)
That's great. I'm glad you brought up mom. Really important job. Thank you for doing that. I really appreciate it. Biggest, most important job ever, for sure. Marlene, how about you? What's your deal?
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (06:24.236)
Yes. Biggest job ever. Yeah. Yep.
Daniel (06:28.026)
Mm-hmm.
Marlene Moyer (06:32.688)
let's see. My deal is is that I just was called to work with kids because I think being a kid can be hard. And so I ended up now I'm a seventh grade teacher and I think being a middle schooler is kind of hard. And so I kinda I hang out there and really love it. kind of connecting with the kids, working with them and feeling pretty great about the work that we're able to do there at the middle school level. And I've been teaching for almost 25 years.
And I'm gonna think I'm gonna finish my career out working with kids. I I love it. I'm a mom also. I do think it's harder than teaching 157th graders. I think being a mom is a harder job than that. And so shout out to all parents. I think parents, dads too are killing it. But yeah, so seventh grade teacher at the moment and and really really love it.
Scott (07:22.182)
All right. Well here's what we have to say to our two moms.
Daniel (07:23.482)
That's awesome.
Marlene Moyer (07:27.868)
Yeah.
Scott (07:29.552)
I love it, love it, love it. Really great stuff. I'm really looking forward to hearing what you guys are working on. And we're gonna get that all taken care of in our topic of the week.
Scott (07:47.036)
All right, this week we're talking about tools, not rules. And I'm really, really, really interested, either one of you can answer this question. What what does that mean? Tools, not rules? Help me understand what you mean by that.
Marlene Moyer (08:02.181)
Well, I feel like you know, some people be like, Well, we need rules and we we totally feel that's true, but a lot of times we can't get the kids to follow the rules. And so we found that if we give these kids these rules around behavior, sorry, tools around behavior, then everything we're trying to accomplish gets happens. And so it feels a little magical. It seems kind of simple, but
It works really, really well. And so then all those objectives, all those rules that you've posted are kind of coming true by following some of these kind of approaches we have to behavior.
Scott (08:40.754)
That's interesting. So help me understand like this tools, not rules approach. So we're gonna give them tools. Like how does it differ from traditional methods and and more importantly, why why are the traditional methods not working?
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (08:54.966)
I think it I think a lot of times what we do is we as teachers establish the rules that are going to happen in our classroom and we it visualize that and that's what's going to c happen. They're good the students will come in and I'll tell them the rules and they'll follow them. And for some kids, they're good at that. They can see the rules, follow the rules. But for other students, just like you might have students who come into your class not ready for grade level.
reading or grade level math, they come in maybe not really understanding what it is that I need to do with my body and my mind and my heart in order to get to the place where I can learn. And a lot of our rules about are about how we're going to establish a great learning environment. So everybody has that good chance to absorb the material and practice and perform. And I think this idea is giving them those tools to self-assess.
And then also figure out how they can work towards being ready to learn in that classroom. So I think that's kind of one of our deals is what we're trying to do with our students all the time.
Daniel (10:03.14)
That's awesome. I you know, as as a as a kid growing up, somebody who definitely struggled to follow a lot of rules, I had lots and lots of adults and and even later on bosses try to be like, though, this is the rule, this is what you have to do. And I found myself just like button up against that a lot. So just to ask you guys and and Marlene, I'll I'll I'll pick on you first, like why why write this book? Like why write a book centered around like student behavior?
Scott (10:03.155)
Yeah, I think that's
Marlene Moyer (10:34.202)
Yeah, it's because it's the deal breaker in a classroom, right? It's why we quit teaching. We get absolutely worn out. And and because we're up against the behavior, teachers all have really good intentions. I really do deeply believe that. And so the everyone is really coming into the classroom hopeful. But hope doesn't get you anywhere if you can't figure out how to actually really deal with the nuts and bolts of this. And so
We wrote a book about behavior because when we worked together, we were in a co-teaching classroom for two years. We had two classrooms next door to each other, and we did we had 50 to 60 kids in every single lesson, some sitting on the floor, and one of us would be leading, one would be in back. And we figured out that there's a lot of behaviors that are impeding kids. There's a lot of kids just like you. Like, I'm kind of sick your rules. I'm not interested in those rules. And we found that.
We kind of came up with a magic formula that kind of shifted the whole thing. It made kids want to work and it made kids feel in control. So kid, you know, kids feel they have so few pieces of control, especially in the classroom. and so it allows them to feel like, I'm in control of my behavior and I'm gonna choose something different. And then the big differentiator we think is that we do not feel we are our behavior. So, Dan, you might have had a bunch of funky behaviors when you were a kid.
but that that's not who you are. That's not the essence of you. And so we kind of allow kids to feel that those are behaviors. Yeah, that's not who you are. We see who you are, and we're gonna help you figure out how to work with these behaviors. So it's a little bit of a distance that we allow them to have. you know how when you're getting the stink eye from a teacher, or the teacher's trying to be kind and she's saying, Hey, hey, Dan, I need you to change that. Hey, Dan, I need you to do this. You still know that they're after you, that you still know that there's something about
You that they might not like. Well, I think kind of part of the magic of this formula with tools not rules, in this approach we've come up with allows kids to recognize, she's just asking me about my behavior. She's not saying I'm a bad person or I'm the bad student or I'm the one who's continually doing these things that will always be this way. and what we know is that.
Marlene Moyer (12:48.174)
Adults struggle with behaviors. And so I struggle with my own behavior sometimes. I can I can do a lot of things well and then sometimes I can be out of control. And I think it's just kind of a natural approach and we think it's kind of revolutionary and simple.
Scott (13:06.152)
Get out of town. You you you're saying that I I struggle with my behav no, no. Well, I mean both both Dan and I have I think what you're talking about is really important. You know, classroom management's a a really important skill. And a lot of people in the adult learning industry struggle with that as well, right? So like and it takes years to master.
Daniel (13:06.416)
That's awesome.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (13:10.424)
Hm.
Daniel (13:11.312)
Ha
Marlene Moyer (13:11.332)
Ha ha ha.
Scott (13:28.538)
as far as classroom management is concerned. And and one of the things that I think is brilliant around the book, and I want to get more information on in in just a second, is this idea of semantics are important, right? So being able to say, hey, this is this is how we're gonna behave. And we're gonna call it a tool because it's gonna make you better versus here's something that I expect you to follow. even adults struggle with these are my expectations, right? So from a facilitation perspective, you know,
Master trainers will get up and say, here's the house rules. Here's the things that we're going to do. Right. so help me understand from a semantics perspective, how do you frame that up? Right. So how do I frame this instead of these are the boundaries that we're gonna accept in this classroom today into something that's these are the ways that we're all gonna be better. This is kind of what I think you're getting at.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (14:21.528)
So I will
That one. I think the biggest difference that we found is when a student has a behavior that falls outside the expected behavior, oftentimes we start telling them what the expected behavior is, and there's a lot of shame about why you're not doing the expected behavior. Like there must be something wrong with you because you're not doing the expected behavior. And as students get older, they become more and more callous to that.
Scott (14:26.087)
Okay.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (14:48.994)
They can blow that off in two seconds. That doesn't matter to them anymore. And so our approach is more a curiosity approach. We want to know more about you. We want to know under what conditions do you feel like these behaviors are happening? And so one of the first things we might say to a student when we're talking to them about behaviors, and we look at all behaviors in terms of something's in the way for you because you're not because what is happening is pulling you away from.
getting the important learning that you need to do. So instead of doing the, you know, wagging the finger at them and shaming them for what they're doing or the how could you do this, blah, blah, blah, we'll say, I've noticed that every time it's time to start working, you've you don't have your materials. Can you tell me what's going on for you?
And just that question, can you tell me what's going on for you? And not saying it in a snarky way, not preloading it with a bunch of you know shaming statements, just what's going on in a way that's curious, because that throws kids off. They're like, What, you really want to know about me? Yeah, I actually do, because you are really important. you're important in my class. I I want to help you, so tell me what's going on. And just that curiosity stance.
We get honest answers all the time about here's what's happening. And they'll let you know. And the things that they share with you, those are actionable things that we can say, thank you for being honest. How can I help you? What could we do to shift this paradigm for you? So maybe you're going, you know, how can I help you get your materials? You know, and sometimes they might say, Well, I left them at home. Things at home are really hard.
And and then that's where a teacher can step in and say, what if we get you an extra worksheet? What if I loan you a book that you need today? Would that work? And then they say yes, and they'll go to their desk and that gives you a whole different story about what a teacher is doing for you and whether or not the teacher wants you to learn. if we are shaming them and reminding them about how short they are falling on our expectations.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (16:55.02)
That gives them different information, but if we are supporting them and saying you can do it. And then the other piece that we do is follow up with acknowledgement for the shift that they made. Thanks for getting started. That's really great. I can see that you're serious about doing your work right now. I love it. And that whole thing is just a different treatment for the scenario where I feel outside of the classroom. I don't feel like I can participate here. And it's this constant invitation in.
to that working environment where they start to feel successful. And once they feel that, it's it's it's just so generative. They start just opening up and becoming, I think what Marlene was saying, you know, who they really are, their essence. And it starts shining through. And once that starts happening, there's almost nothing you can do to stop They just it's incredible.
Daniel (17:46.19)
That's awesome. I love that. I, you know, like so often when I I I think about like coaching people, even adults, like just in like performance and things like that, we all get focused on like the rules. Like this is what I'm supposed to do. This is what I'm supposed to do. And all I so often all it takes is just that change of like approach and just that, like, hey, listen, I don't care about the rules. I care about your performance. I care about
Scott (18:02.398)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel (18:16.24)
how you're doing, how we're getting here. So let's focus on that. So I love that. That's awesome.
Marlene Moyer (18:23.344)
Yeah, and I think kids really sense it and they respond to it and they kind of feel seen. And you know, we use some some we give kids some specific language so they can learn to talk about their behavior, which we I think as a society kind of fall short on. You know, Brene Brown had to write a whole book on behaviors so we could understand at the Atlas of the Heart book. And
It's because, yeah, we don't do a great job. We just say, we just want you to do what we need you to do. We just want you to follow what I just said. We just need you to do these rules. But it's behavior that generates the ability to do that. And so we are kind of rounding out this conversation. We're pulling it back a couple steps and saying, look, it let's have this really robust conversation around behaviors. Here's nine words we're going to use. we just need you to be honest. And if we can get you to be honest.
we can make a lot of changes. And you know, that's tricky too, because how do you get kids to be honest? Because they're worried about getting in trouble. And we know again through Bernay Brown's work that if you can allow kids to feel connected while you're correcting or while you're working with their behavior, they'll tell you everything. They will tell you everything as long as they you can get them and you can send them to the principal's office, you can suspend them, you can do all the things you have to do.
to hold them accountable as long as you remain in connection with them. And I think we know that as parents, those of us who've par you know, failed at parenting and and and then had some successes, if you stay in connection, kids can own their behavior and can be held accountable. So so those are some of the things that we do that allows us to kind of develop this atmosphere in the classroom.
Daniel (20:10.404)
That's awesome. You you mentioned you guys have like nine words that you're you're you're giving these students. Can you give like an example of maybe like one of them and kind of just how you guys are using it?
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (20:22.4)
Sure. So the first one, the first triad that we came up with is are you shirking? Are you working or are you showboating? And that came up when Marlene and I were co-teaching. We had to roll out the new common core in mathematics and specifically fifth grade, which was very difficult in our state. And
We got a lot of shirking, which is behavior to avoid work. And then we got a lot of showboating for students that feel advanced in math and were kind of knocking all the other students down because they didn't understand right away. And so we thought, wow, we have these two situations, shirking and showboating that are just draining our ability to teach well for the students to master new content. And so we just really started focusing on.
We gotta change the shirking to working. How can we help? We need to change the show aboding to working. How can we help? And once we got all the students working, that was pretty phenomenal in terms of their ability raising. And so that was really helpful. then we move to Marlene, you wanna talk about the next one?
Marlene Moyer (21:29.21)
Yeah, then we both moved to the middle school and we came up I know I know I needed passive assertive aggressive because you see a lot of aggressive behavior starting in the mid middle school. So, you know, again we want everyone in assertive. Say I, you know, you matter. If you can be assertive, I don't have that paper. all of a sudden things shift, you know. and then it allows me as the teacher
To approach it in a way that I'm not angry. I had one kid sitting there for half an hour. I should have been up walking, doing the right teacher thing, you know, making sure everyone was engaged. And I come up to him after a half an hour. I get up from grading papers and he's doing nothing. I'm like, you've done nothing? No, I'm not doing anything. And so instead of me just like in my own shame spiral, like just barfing on this kid, how embarrassed I am. He's been doing nothing for a half an hour. I just said, hey,
what's happening and he's like, I don't know. And I said, Well, raise your hand. And and I Why are you raising your hand? He said, 'Cause I need the paper. Great job for being assertive. And so all of a sudden you're you're creating these scenarios where kids all of a sudden have a different feeling in it. And so then I can say, Great job being assertive. Here's your paper. Get to work. I've changed my experience. I've changed his experience. And and again we're then moving forward in that working kind of environment. So
Anyhow, that was the the second set. And then there was a third set we came up with that we think really allows us to have a well rounded conversation. you know, three of the in each triad, there's a kind of the green word where we want the kids, and then there's there's kind of hot words where you're aggressive, showboating, or there's cool words. I'm passive and I'm shirking, those types of things. And so, you know, as human beings, we all know, I can tell you.
Scott (23:08.461)
Mm-hmm.
Marlene Moyer (23:16.846)
In my kind of dysfunctional states, I go towards sh you know, showboating and being aggressive. Claudia might, you know, choose the blue words generally, or you, Dan and and Scott might kind of, you know, you in your dysfunction you kind of go to these places. So we get kids to be aware of that. What do we tend to do when things get hard?
Scott (23:36.254)
That's really cool. So quick question. Is everybody on the same page from a language perspective? Or the the kids in classroom kind of learn about it? Do you teach them up front or they just kind of learn via osmosis? So I've seen nodding of heads to front. That's great. Do you do you see a lot of or do you see some of so my experience at least from a leadership perspective, having that shared sense of language, right? And a shared sense of who we are and what we're about and how we're gonna work and how we're gonna, you know.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (23:48.47)
Yeah.
Yeah, we have okay.
Scott (24:05.762)
deliver value is super important. So once you get that buy-in of all of that, it makes my job super easy because, you know, when anybody goes outside of the norms that we have all collectively agreed upon, I don't have to say anything. 99% of the time, their peers are going, what are doing? We we all said that this was the way that things were supposed to be and you're out doing that. Stop. And by the way, when you can when you can develop that
within your teams from an adult perspective, you it frees you up from a leadership capacity to go ahead and work us on work on bigger things. How do my team get better? How do I deliver more value? Are you seeing the same thing in the classroom, you intentionally developing some sense of community around the tools so that, dare I say, you got some kid and he's doing the right thing, probably. Hey, you're showboating. By the way, I'm totally a showboater. I'm gonna be showboating all day long.
Marlene Moyer (25:03.994)
Yeah, it's good to know. It's good to know.
Daniel (25:04.858)
Mm-hmm.
Scott (25:07.185)
Yeah. So he's go ahead.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (25:09.824)
Yeah, so I'll I'll jump in. I think that the we spend a lot of time at the beginning of the year. Those first two weeks are essential to teach routines, to teach, you know, how things are going to go. So when you do start coming into the more complicated content and mastery, students already have that routine down. They know what's going to happen. And so teaching are three sets of words. There's a whole set of activities we have available for teachers. they're in the book.
How do we help the students understand what the words are? And once they have that down, what I loved as a teacher, all the nervousness that I had in terms of what are the students going to do, what behaviors are gonna happen, and what will I have to do with the behaviors? And what if this, and you know, so there's a lot of not only are we worried about teaching content, but we're also worried about dealing with behavior. And that's got significantly worse since the pandemic. And so I know when we're rolling out tools, not rules, I have that framework in my mind. Those nine words are there.
What I'm going what we've established what will happen and it's all ready to go. We've practiced the routine. The kids know what's going to happen. And so that piece is already built in. I can rely on it. I can walk into the classroom and it's ready to go. And so my focus as a teacher is on teaching well, teaching content, helping students, working with students who need more, working with students who aren't quite there yet. So what I in initially entered into the teaching profession for.
Is so that I could help students learn. And then suddenly with this tools, not rules in place in the background, ready to go, I know what I can do if I need it, but I am here to help you learn. And students really quickly noticed that. And I'll just add that when we did a study at Marlene School and we did a year-long study implementing tools, not rules, and we I interviewed students and they said things like,
Teachers in the classroom who use tools not rules, I have to raise my hand and ask questions. It's expected of me. And that's because Marlene and her colleagues are saying, be assertive. What do you need? teachers report, students reported that they look at the words and they reflect. Like, how can I be more assertive? Like, you know, they'd say, I'd look and I'd say, I don't want to be passive. I want to be assertive. And so they are using those words to try and
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (27:32.874)
modify their behavior and thinking about who they want to be and how they want to be in the world. They applied it to sports, they applied it to their parents, like when their parents would ask them to do something, one girl said, I don't want to be passive. I'm gonna be assertive. And her mom said, What are you learning in that class? I love it. So we see that it applies in different, you know, arenas when students want to self-motivate, when they want to pull up you know their bootstraps and actually work on something.
And so that's one of the one of the reasons we wrote the book to come back to that original question is so that teachers who are s who are looking for something like this can have access to all the different things that we tried that we felt were so successful in the classroom.
Daniel (28:17.968)
That's awesome. So I know that you guys you guys right now are like I think you guys said seventh grade space. Is there a time you think is best to start using these the like the rules not or tools not rules?
Marlene Moyer (28:32.644)
Yeah, you know, let's see, one of my colleagues who is at the middle school level, she's now in first grade, and she has a tremendous amount of success with Tools Not Rules. She has parents saying, How is it you're working with my child? what book was it? I want to read it, because the kids just are kind of shifting some of their behaviors so early. you know, we tried it out at a at a high school, and we can't quite say the results at the high school level, but I can assure you.
these words resonate. So as as as a young child in, you know, let's say kindergarten, first grade, they really get these concepts. They understand that they need to be honest. They know that they can be honest because you're going to remain in connection with them. And then they're aware that they can change their behavior and they're not their behavior. And you know, Scott, you had mentioned I'm a showboater and I love that you said that because that's what we originally started with. We started with those words as nouns, but we use those words, we changed them all to ing words.
because we want them to be verbs. We don't want kids, we want kids to kind of disassociate from being, I'm the showboater, I'm the passive one, versus I am being passive. I am showboating right now, but I know how I can get to working and I can be assertive. And so it it kind of just, you know, at a very young age, they get it, they understand it, they can use the big words, they know what it means, because we feel it in our bodies, right? Like we kind of know what aggressive feels like.
We know what assertive feels like. We know when we're being passive. So it really is something we have seen a lot of success with at different age age levels.
Daniel (30:11.088)
That's awesome.
Scott (30:11.122)
That's really great. I I I think that's awesome. One of the things that you also mentioned, like in addition to the book, you've you've got some tools. Do you want to talk a little bit about some of the tools you have available for for teachers out there?
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (30:22.358)
Yeah, so what we love about having the book is that's a tool. Like a teacher could pick that up. We wrote it for teachers, and so you could read a little bit of it, try a little, try little things. You could read all of it and try it more. So the book talks about some of the tools that we use. one of the things we use it are the posters, and we have posters available if you want to buy them, or we encourage teachers just to make their own.
and so that is something on our website we have a whole full program of ways that you teach the students the words and how you help them understand what they are, identify what it looks like. And so we have all the materials available for them to take that and just roll it out in their classroom. So you don't really need the book, you could just have our materials and take that out. I think we have a star chart posted up there, which is something we use with kids a lot.
And the star chart is a tool to help s maintain connection with our students. And we often joke that you're not putting a student with bad behavior on the star chart. You're putting yourself on the star chart as the teacher to make sure you're making that constant connection with that kid, make sure you're noticing the good things that they are doing, even if they're tiny. and and just and and reinforcing, I see you, I see the good things you do, I see you're here on time today. Thank you so much. I I
I see that you sat right down and were ready to go. That's amazing. That's another star. So that's a tool we use in a little bit different way, but that's available. and also Marlene and I are available to help train, coach. We we talk to a lot of teachers all the time, just trying to get the word out. Often we do it for free because we just want teachers to increase their happiness and satisfaction with their job and feel like they can.
You know, this was huge for Marlene and I. At the end of the day, we both had young kids when we were teaching. We had a lot going on. At the end of the day, we could leave the classroom and not have to still process what just happened with behaviors, with things. We just closed the classroom door, a present for our families, present for the things we needed to do, and excited to return the next day because I had a plan. We had a plan. We you know, and whatever the kids needed, we
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (32:39.554)
could do that that day because we're ready. We're ready for them and all their idiosyncrasies and all their moods and different things that happen in their lives. So those tools are all available.
Marlene Moyer (32:49.814)
Yeah, and I just want to add to what Claudia said is like we're we're operating from framework. When she says, I know exactly what we're gonna do, it's because we have a pretty tight framework. We have this way that we approach our conversations with the kids. You know, we have we we know exactly it's not scripted per se, but it's pretty much I'm gonna start with honesty. What do I love more than anything? The kid says honesty. Okay, where do we find honesty? Yeah, we find it right here. Okay, did you do the thing? Yes.
Thank you for your honesty. And then where do you think your behavior is right now? Okay, I am shirking right now. Why are you shirking? What's happening? We go that wondering place. So it's because we have a framework that we don't feel like we're gonna go in and be like onslaughted by the kid who's doing like, you know, guerrilla warfare in the class, which it feels like sometimes. So because we have this framework, because we know you know, when you have that five percent of kids, you know,
All all teachers in schools know that you know they kind of sort kids by are we really struggling with behavior with this kid? We know what we do with those kids. We put them on a star chart, we flood them with positive things, we do not correct their behavior, we create connection, and because we know what we're going to do in the hardest situations always, we don't fret, we don't feel exhausted by it. You know, every now and then you have to call in for a little extra help, but
teachers who use tools not rules often don't have to get additional support in the way that some other teachers maybe who are just doing their best trying to figure it out but don't have a framework to operate from.
Scott (34:24.39)
It's so important. And I love that you brought up the the star chart and looking for positive things. I know that well, we live in a society that's yeah, but we built it, right? Where it's all about negative stuff and finding something wrong is easy, right? I'm gonna walk out my door of my office and there's gonna be something I'm gonna find wrong. Finding things that are good is well, it's equally as easy once you put it into practice, right? And so I often talk a little bit about
Gallup Q12, it's where I go to from a process perspective on making sure that we recognize people at least once a week for doing a decent job. And you know, a lot of my peers are like, that's crazy. Like, how do I do that? Like, and I'm like, just if you're just doing it once a week, that's like not enough either. So, like, you know, we all want the same thing. We all want to be seen for who we are. We want to be valued for the uniqueness that we bring and we want to be appreciated. And the only way that you can do that is by being positive. so having those tools and that framework.
that addresses some of that as part of a part of what you're doing, I think is super important. 'Cause I know that if you don't get it, they're gonna get a lot of the stuff that's gonna lead to the behavior that we don't want. Right? So
Marlene Moyer (35:26.044)
Mm-hmm.
Marlene Moyer (35:34.574)
Yeah. Yeah. And and teachers work really hard. I mean, we don't want teachers I here's the last thing we want. We don't want teachers to listen to this thinking, I have to do one more thing. They're telling me I'm not doing a good job. That's not it at all. We're just saying this framework allows it to be simpler. It allows you to have confidence in your skills. You have confidence in what how you're going to approach it when it's hard. And the kids love it because it's predictable.
Scott (35:44.936)
Mm mm.
Marlene Moyer (35:59.909)
When I take kids out into the hallway, every kid knows I'm not taking them out there to tear them apart. They know that the kids gonna come back in and have a sense of themselves. They are gonna have a sense of kind of acknowledging and owning something that they're gonna try to shift. and they know that I haven't sat out there and shamed them into disconnection, that I don't like you. you're disconnected from me. I don't want you to win anymore. I have given up on you. You know, because we do when we get so tired, we give up on kids. And I think.
back to your one of your original points. Why did we write a book about behavior? Because you know, we don't want people to give up on kids. And we don't give up on kids because we're bad teachers or bad administrators. We give up because we're exhausted. So we think this helps.
Scott (36:45.618)
This has really been a an amazing conversation. I wanna thank both of you for coming on and and sharing this stuff. I think it's foundational. I think it's you you could build a really great world around it. So I think that's really cool. good, bad, or indifferent, we're kind of getting to that point in time in the our conversation. We need to wind some things down. So if you wouldn't mind both of you, could you go ahead and provide like
What's a key takeaway or or something that you want to make sure our audience remembers? And maybe it's something you already talked about, or maybe it's something that we didn't talk about yet. So you want to just make sure that that people remember as we begin to wrap things up.
Marlene Moyer (37:22.988)
I think you can create the environment you've always envisioned. we just had we had the good fortune of having two talented teachers in one classroom. I don't think we could have done it by ourselves. And so we feel like this might be able to offer the opportunity for you to create more of what you're hoping to create in a classroom, maybe where you feel stuck, maybe where you kind of wish you could shift the approach, maybe you wish you could.
Stay connected to a few more kids that have been tough to connect to. So it's just we we hope it gives you an opportunity to feel a little more hopeful.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (38:02.105)
Okay, I would say because I work with, excuse me, I work with teach I I work with young, aspiring teachers right now, and they are so excited. They are so dedicated and they they have all this passion for teaching and they want to help students learn. And I would say that we want those teachers to stay in those classrooms. They want to create excellent learning conditions, they want to create amazing lessons.
And oftentimes if it's something creative, it's an inviting, it's engaging, the behavior is what gets them. They're not sure how to manage the behavior. And so they start closing in and not trying those really creative ideas or the things that they learned. And you know, I want to try this. And so I would just argue for having a framework, having something you can rely on. Tools, not rules work great to just say, I have this wonderful lesson planned.
And I got your back on how you're going to engage. And once those two things happen, it's magic. Because the students start recognizing what the potential in learning is and how much they love learning under those conditions. And the the guardrails have to be up. and they are that you they need to know that you are watching and you are going to keep things moving along and you're gonna approach it seriously, and you're gonna be working and you're going to be assertive and
That under those conditions, students can learn and teachers become really inspired and really happy. And so I would say give it a try, look at our website. if you want to order the book, you can. And just know that there is a way to implement all those wonderful ideas you have for creative learning and teaching and engagement, as long as we can c get that in place. And so when I see my students feel successful.
It's there's nothing like it. And so that's that's what I I want teachers to know too. This might be something that's very helpful.
Scott (40:02.353)
All right. That's awesome. All right. Claudia, Marlene, thank you so much for showing up today. Could you do us a favor? could you let the our audience know how they could connect with you and where they could get the resources that you've been talking about today?
Marlene Moyer (40:20.25)
Yeah, so we have a website and that is a the great that that's the best place to land for us, www.toolsnotrules.com. And then you can email us Claudia at toolsnotrules.com or Marlene at toolsnotrules.com. And so we'd love to hear from you.
Scott (40:39.048)
That's great. So toolsnotrules.com. That's where you want to go. By the way, if you forget, it's going to be in the links in the notes section. again, really appreciate it. Great stuff. Danielson, could you do us a favor? Could you let our audience know how they could connect with us?
Daniel (40:51.287)
Yes, Scott.
Daniel (40:56.64)
Absolutely. All right, party people, you guys know the drill. Nerds at the learning nerds dot com. Email us any questions you might have, join in on the discussion, we'd love to hear from you. If you're on Facebook, you can find us at Learning Nerds. For all of our Instagram peeps, Fab Learning Nerds, and lastly, for more information about us, what we do and updates, www.thelearning nerds dot com. Scott, back at ya.
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Scott (42:59.398)
I mean, one more favor, if you could, did you go ahead and leave a review on this show or any of our shows? It really, really helps us get that algorithm up, right? Get more of this information out to more people so we can make the world a little bit better place. And with that, I'm Scott.
Daniel (43:16.869)
Dan.
Marlene Moyer (43:17.839)
I'm Marlene.
Claudia Bertolone-Smith (43:19.234)
Faria.
Scott (43:20.467)
And we're the fabulous learning nerds and we are out.