Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Wired In: Kontek Conversations is for leaders who want to get technology right. From universities and healthcare systems to corporate enterprises, each episode delivers practical insights to help you navigate complex projects, avoid costly missteps, and design environments that truly connect people.
Through candid conversations with Kontek executives and industry experts, you’ll discover why projects succeed or fail, how to balance innovation with usability, and how bold ideas become reality. Along the way, we share perspectives on the evolution of AV technology, the impact of employee ownership, and the culture of accountability that drives lasting results.
With almost four decades of expertise, Kontek invites you to think bigger, dream bolder, and imagine what’s possible when technology and vision come together.
Brandon Giella: Hello and
welcome back to another episode
of Wired in a Contact Podcast.
Today we are talking about the real cost
of AV projects, and the subtitle here is
the price You Pay When It Doesn't Work.
And so what we're talking about here
is something we touched on in previous
episodes, but that there is a total
cost of ownership when you think about.
Building a large scale premium AV project
within your space, whether you're a
hospital, a school, so on, and there
are functions of this space, of course,
that survey business purpose, and it
is very important to get that right.
And even though it looks like.
A project could be half a
million, a million or more.
Think about the total cost of
ownership over the lifetime of that
space and the lifetime of these,
the technology and the team, and the
frustrations that you'll experience.
And it will start to add up and
make it clear why it is good
to spend the money upfront.
So you Marcus, uh, are, we have talked
about this before and you have a lot of.
Experience in this area.
A lot of wisdom, if I can say that.
Where you have done this a time or two,
uh, in different, um, configurations
of what projects will look like
in different spaces for different
organizations at different price points,
and you're saying, let's go all in.
Think about it.
So, uh, and I don't wanna put
words in your mouth, but that's
what I'm, what I'm thinking up.
So talk Talk to me a little bit about, um,
the price you pay when it doesn't work.
So you have mentioned like different
hidden costs with cheaper solutions.
We talked about Amazon last time, buying
these little, you know, $8 HDMI cords.
But scale that up.
Talk about an overall big project
of, of some of these hidden
costs that you've experienced.
If you, if you scrimp.
Marques Manning: Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I think a lot of this really
starts with your actual users, right?
So if we just talk on the people side
of the equation, if you're trying
to, we'll say value engineered, or
you're trying to go with, you know,
lower tiers and get your costs down,
what ends up happening, and we've
seen this in the field several times.
You know, you may put a solution out.
So imagine you have a brand new building
school, whatever it is, and on day one,
you're experiencing failures, right?
So most folks, you may have an IT team,
you have an AV team, they have roles
and responsibilities and things they're
doing throughout their daily jobs.
Now imagine that in your brand new
conference room every morning, an AV or IT
professional has to come by to reboot it.
Is it working?
Uh, there's a failure.
The calendar isn't working correctly.
Oh, wait, the room is down.
I have to move it.
Okay, well now that person's
job has shifted from whatever
their daily roles are to now.
I have to check on this meeting room
every single day and spend 30 minutes
to an hour trying to troubleshoot
or figure out what's happening.
Especially in the case of if you have a
hardware failure or something like that.
Okay, well, that's one room.
Now, if you multiply that across a
campus or across a large building
where you have 5, 10, 20 spaces, that
becomes immediately unmanageable.
Right?
So now your whole team
is being taxed with.
Hey, why is this always failing?
So it's really about, you know, did
I put in a quality solution from the
very beginning that I know will last?
So that's your, your headcount when
it comes to employees, um, that
actually service and work on the gear.
On the flip side of that,
think about your users.
So if I have to come into a room, I
have a meeting scheduled to start at,
you know, 8:30 AM I don't believe in
8:00 AM meeting, so we'll say eight 30.
I I walk in the room.
And it's not working right?
I can't connect, the display won't
turn on, something's happening.
So now as a user, I'm gonna be frustrated.
I'm gonna be stressed out.
I'm calling it, I'm calling av.
I'm calling someone, right?
I'm saying, Hey, I need help right now.
Well, immediately my stress level's up.
Well, now the stress level of whoever's
coming to help me is probably gonna
rise a little bit because they're
sensing, you know, that, Hey, this has
to happen right now, and these are.
These are really, you know, small examples
of this, but it really happens every day.
And so now that user, they've
lost confidence in the room.
So now they don't want to use that room.
They wanna try to schedule other rooms.
So now you're having competing
rooms or they're trying to kind of
come up with their own solution.
And then some extreme cases, I've
seen users start to take rooms
apart and really break things.
And it's like, okay, wow.
Like please don't do this.
This is, this is not the answer, trust me.
Um, but all that happens because.
People just want their
technology to work, right?
If I hit the power button,
I want something to come on.
I want something to happen.
I don't wanna worry about
the ins and outs of it.
I don't want to have to hit five
buttons to make one thing happen.
Right?
And it just, you know, all of
that goes into the thinking
because it's the hardware you're
selecting, it's the manufacturers
you're choosing to work with.
It's the team that's
doing the programming.
Is it something that's very intuitive?
You know, when you're doing your graphical
user interfaces, does it just make sense
naturally how I'm gonna navigate this?
And all of that, all of the, the talent
and the expense that goes along with
developing talent and retaining it,
that's what, you know, makes companies
appear more expensive, less expensive.
But all of that really shines through
in the end, uh, product because now
I can launch a space that I expect to
have, you know, plenty of uptime, 99.95
or whatever metric you wanna go by.
And then also a user can just walk
in and it makes sense right away.
It just, I walk in.
I know how to use this.
It is very intuitive and very simple.
And then there's also flexibility, right?
Maybe I walk in, I wanna
connect with my laptop.
Maybe some days I'm just
running in with my phone.
I just want to connect through my phone.
I just want my phone to control the room.
You know, how do I do this
and how do I make it happen?
And all of that just is where you get
into the these premiums as far as.
Top tier companies that
really know the ins and outs.
They're used to different user
experiences, different IT environments.
You know, IT and AV are
connected to HIP at this point.
So anything we're doing in a space,
hey, do we talk to IT to make
sure their network supports this?
'cause you don't wanna roll something
out and then the user can't use it
because, oh wait, it blocks this port.
This isn't accessible.
You know, this is not how
our network is partitioned.
So all of that goes into
the overall experience.
And I tell folks all the time, you know.
Our brand is really about
expertise and experience.
That's what we sell.
You know, all the boxes
you can buy anywhere.
But when it comes to expertise and
really knowing and deep diving, that's
where companies like ours really shine.
Brandon Giella: what I'm, what
I'm hearing is there's like
basically two types of costs.
Correct me if I'm wrong here,
but what I'm hearing is there's
frustration on one side.
It's just annoying to this
thing not work, you know?
And, and I, I got a thousand.
Examples of that, just on the
personal side, you know, some, my
phone doesn't, the, I was dealing
with this yesterday with the update
that iOS came out with, and I just
couldn't do the thing I was trying
to do, you know, it's so frustrating.
Um, but then there's also the, there's
the business case of it that you actually
can't turn some of that frustration
into an actual line item on a budget.
So if you brought up, for example, if you
have that employee who's supposed to be
doing a hundred other things and every
morning he's gotta come in and do this and
it takes 15 minutes maybe, and it's not a
big deal, quote unquote, it's 15 minutes.
But that adds up.
That compounds a lot, especially
if you have a larger space
like you're talking about.
Um, and so there is a real business
case for some of this stuff, and
if you don't consider those line
items that do start to add up.
It's, it can be a big deal.
And I, and I wanna say too, I wanna
empathize with a, a listener, a a
a person who's putting the budget
together, putting the dream together
for what their AV project looks like.
I'm a business owner.
You're a business owner.
You try to cut costs if you can.
It helps obviously the
profitability of the company.
It helps bring, you know,
interest payments down over the
long term, $500,000 project.
Like I get it.
I get.
But think long term and think,
uh, holistically about the whole
project is that, is that way I'm
framing those two types of costs.
Is that, does that track with kind
of how you, you've experienced it?
Marques Manning: Yeah, 100%.
Um, you know, and I never wanna lose
sight of this is a huge investment.
Some of these folks are making.
And these, these technologies.
So, you know, I don't wanna be
cavalier in saying like, oh, you
know, just spend more, because
that's not always the answer.
Right.
Brandon Giella: exactly right.
Yeah.
Marques Manning: I mentioned
it before, but you don't
need gold plated HDMI cables.
That's a bridge too far for me.
You don't need that, you know, but
it is the cost of, you know, we
focused on, you know, an employee
experience, things like that.
But we support certain industries where
there's an even deeper cost in terms
of you could have lives on the line.
We support hospitals, medical centers.
Uh, we do a lot for command and control in
monitoring centers, 911 emergency centers.
If something goes down in those spaces
that are manned, you know, 24/7 365,
that can have an extreme negative
impact on the community itself.
So it's, you know, I focused on the,
just the corporate style, uh, you know,
it's conference room, but there are
plenty of spaces where it has to be up,
it has to be running, and, you know,
that's not the time to try to save a few
dollars on the front end because if you
have a premature failure or something.
That cascades, now the room is down.
Now folks are scrambling.
Now they're trying to
bring it back up now.
Oh, I have to do an advanced replacement.
I have to try to get a new part.
All these things, you know,
can, can just cascade from that.
And it could just start with, Hey,
this wasn't the right choice for, you
know, how often we need to use this.
does it need to run continuously.
Just this week I went out to a venue.
Beautiful vein, great
views around the city.
Pretty awesome.
And as I walked around, I was
kind of doing a walk, uh, for
one of our clients 'cause they
were doing a, a dinner meeting.
As I looked around, I noticed
there was all these components that
just weren't quite working right.
There was a display that wouldn't turn on.
All right, well, I looked at it, it
was like, well, no knock on them.
But this came from a big box store.
I won't say any names.
I said, it's not a
commercially rated product.
It's not for outdoor use.
You probably saved some money,
but it's already failed.
It hadn't been outside for years.
I know that.
Um, they were trying to use the
projector in one of the rooms.
Oh.
They couldn't connect at the wall
because the wall plate wasn't working.
Oh wait.
The control system is also not
working Well, this is a space
that's a revenue generating space.
So how does that work if you
have a revenue jittering space
that you're gonna rent out?
But the technology doesn't work.
It can't really do all
that needs to happen.
So there's all these use cases
and all these different industries
where we see it all the time.
And when I walked through the the room,
I said, Ooh, I don't have high hopes
for this is what I told the client at
the time and said, Hey, this is just,
you know, they went with a, a lower tier
brand that has a higher failure rate.
That's one of the things
that comes with it.
Um, and then they saw it in real
time and it kind of opened their
eyes to some of this discussion we're
having today of, Hey, this is why
this really matters on the front end.
Brandon Giella: So what I'm hearing,
uh, to frame it this way maybe
is there's two types of costs.
One is just frustration.
Everybody knows what that's like.
And then the other is actual hard cash
shows up in a line item on a budget that
you actually do need to plan for that.
Typically, you wouldn't
think of in, in budgets.
You know that the time that it person
has to be in the room, et cetera.
But then there's two types
of impacts maybe, and one is.
And maybe this is, um, particular
to certain types of industries
like you're getting at.
Um, one is like, uh, uh, an impact on the
actual, like in a hospital, the actual
impact on a patient's life or their health
or in, um, you know, something failing
within a, a venue like you're saying.
Which can, which can hurt
in two different ways.
One is like the brand premium, like
you're supposed to be a premium
brand, and now you are not going to
be perceived as that premium brand.
Uh, but then there's the actual
like cost of, of like a, or
impact of like a person's life.
Is that, maybe there's, is
that a a great way to frame it?
Maybe where it's like, um, yeah,
it's, it's like brand impact and
then real impact on, on people's
lives and their day-to-day functions.
Is that,
Marques Manning: a
hundred percent because the
severity of the impact can change
based on the industry you're in.
Right?
If I am, you know, a teacher at
elementary school, is it annoying
and obnoxious and interrupting
my day if the technology fails?
Yes.
That's not the same as the nine one one
call center that's trying to monitor a
storm situation in real time, and all
of a sudden the video wall goes down.
Those are, you know, dramatic differences
into the impact it's going to have,
you know, to other folks involved
that, not just with the technology
side, but who are you trying to
support through this technology?
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
Okay.
That's really helpful.
Um, there's this, as you were talking,
I, I was pulling up this, this blog
that, uh, has made a big impact on me and
I've just been obsessed with it lately.
Um, and it's called, I wanna get
this right because I wanna, I wanna
give attribution where it's due.
It's called the work.
It's never just the work.
And it's by a guy named Dave Stewart.
And it's this really fascinating,
um, uh, like analysis that he did.
He's a software engineer and he analyzed
like all of these projects over the last
year that he had completed and wondering
like, what the heck happened to my
budgets on these things or these scopes?
And so I wanna lay this out and I wanna
see if this is tracking with, with.
Kind of how you're thinking about
some of these things and and I think
it'll help listeners kind of frame
up like, these are all the costs
that are going into this thing.
So he frames it this way.
There's the work around the
work, which is like meetings,
reviews, project management.
There's the work to get to
the work, which is research,
experimentation, things like that.
There's the work before the
work configuration set up.
Infrastructure and then there's the work.
There's the actual like thing
that you guys are implementing and
building, you know, the product,
the design, the testing and so on.
Then there's the work between
the work, which is debugging,
refactoring maintenance.
There's the work beyond the
work, which is changes omissions.
Nice to have maybe some scope creep.
There's the work outside the work, which
is surprises, contingencies, disasters.
And then there's the work after
the work, the hosting, deployment,
security, support, updates, fixes.
And what he argues is that.
When you have a budget in mind for a
particular project, and I think this
extrapolates different things I've
read about, whether it's a highway,
a building or a software project, it,
you can double that project budget
and timeline and then double it again,
and that's probably more accurate and
realistic about what you, you might be
actually investing into this project.
Does that frame make sense to you?
Is that, does that match with your
experience and, and having been doing
this for a couple of decades now.
Marques Manning: I'll say, wow.
He said his name was Dave Stewart.
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Dave Stewart.
Marques Manning: I will have to
check that out because he nailed it.
He, uh, he should come on over to the AV
design integration side because he is.
He has nailed it.
That is exactly what happens.
You know, when people ask us
sometimes about, well, why do you
need so much project management time?
Okay, well I have to walk the
site, I have to see what's
going on with the construction.
We have to, you know, gather documentation
and we have to brief the teams.
We have to, you know, monitor the
project as it's happening in real time.
We get ready to close out the project
or all the resources assigned to do
the programming for it, to debug it,
just to go in and train the users.
You know, we have a multi-room
system throughout the whole building.
Do your final closeout deliver all
of your code and your paperwork.
Like all of that surrounds, you know,
what happens on the project, and
that's just one role on a project.
You know, on a project you'll have your pm
you'll have your account manager, you have
your leads, you have your rec integrator,
you have your field engineer, you have,
you have all these roles, and their work
is all very similar to that process.
So that's what ends up happening, you
know, all these hours go into that
project to make it become a reality.
And people think sometimes like,
wow, that seems really high.
Well, here's all the work that's required.
And just to keep up
with the client, right?
Just to have meetings, you know, when
you're doing a construction project.
You're gonna typically have, you
know, a, a weekly OAC C meeting.
So that means every hour I'm meeting
with the owner, the architect, um, any
contractors, and we're meeting, talking
about whatever's happening that's just
one hour a week for the lifetime of
this build, however long it may be.
So if you're building for six months,
just do that math right there.
So, yeah, he hit a home run on
that one because that perfectly
encapsulates, you know, an an audio
visual design integration project.
Brandon Giella: Okay.
Okay.
Fascinating.
I'll, I'll share this
blog with you afterwards.
I've been obsessed with it lately 'cause
it's like, you know, you, you're coming
in and thinking, okay, I'm probably
about to spend a hundred thousand dollars
on this AV project, and it's like.
It may be actually more realistic thinking
about, again, lifetime of the project,
let's say 10 years or whatever, outta
all the benefits that you're gonna get
out of it and all this, the work to
set it up, it's probably, you should
probably think about investing about
$400,000 and, and, and he argues I'm, I'm
not putting words in your mouth or his
mouth, but I think he's arguing that's
probably a more realistic view of what
it's actually gonna cost to do this.
Right.
To do it well and to minimize those
frustrations and those long-term costs
that you'll experience on your budget.
Marques Manning: I'll say the
only difference for it for that
is we won't double and double
again, but what ends up happening
is we'll have the initial amount.
And even in our initial, like
our goal, you know, this is just
our philosophy at our company
is we don't want any surprises.
So going into the project, we're trying to
look at all those things he's mentioning
and trying to capture all of those
hours, which means there could be sticker
shock because immediately it's like,
oh wait, you're 30% higher, probably.
I tell people all the time, we're
never the cheapest company out there.
I said, but at the same time, it's a
rarity that we're issuing a change order
that we have to come back and rescope
or do, because we spent all this time
to try to capture as much as we could.
To make sure we're giving you an honest
look at it, but the rest of it is
spot on because I mean, yearly there's
maintenance, there's things that are gonna
happen for the long term, um, you know,
life cycle of whatever we're doing, right?
Because you do want this to last.
I tell people all the time, you know,
you wanna be able to get, you know,
five to seven years out of a system.
It's no different than computers, right?
I tell folks your, it refreshed.
Your company is probably somewhere
in the neighborhood of five years.
Brandon Giella: Okay.
Marques Manning: AV is really, we're
talking about custom built PCs.
Essentially that's what they are.
They're custom PCs performing
a very specific function, but
they're basically computers.
So if you think about how that matches
up with it, then you'd say, yeah, I
wanna refresh my, you know, AV life
cycle somewhere, you know, five, seven
years, you know, something like that.
We have a few clients that have
stretched it out to 10, sometimes
12, and I say, Hey, you're winning.
If you get 10 years, you have won the
game and uh, you're doing really well.
And some manufacturers can do that.
They won't advertise it, but.
There's some manufacturers out there that,
I mean, they can just run continuously
and we'll see these old boxes and we're
like, oh man, that thing is still running.
That's pretty cool.
Brandon Giella: I, I've heard that
with, uh, people in their MacBooks.
Sometimes people have like
10-year-old MacBooks or something.
That, that just keep,
keep going, you know,
Marques Manning: I'm one
of those, I have one,
Brandon Giella: Oh,
Marques Manning: have a MacBook
right now that is a 10 years old,
and I laugh about it because I
Brandon Giella: Oh bro.
Marques Manning: I need a new one.
But uh, and I always tell people
they think I'm anti apple.
I'm like, I'm not anti.
I just exist in a different
space where I work on windows.
I'll be in, you know, iOS projects
I do on Linux sometimes, so I'm
never just married to one thing.
But yes, I'm in that refresh of 10 years.
Okay.
Brandon Giella: That's funny.
Okay, good.
Okay, so talk to me a little bit.
I'm glad you touched on that,
um, that five year refresh rate.
I think that's something important
to think about when you're thinking
about building one of these
projects or dreaming about it even.
Um, what is that process like at, at
five years, let's say, you know, you,
you install this, you know, four or
$500,000 project, beautiful space, world
class facility, uh, and then that kind
of five year mark starts approaching.
What happens then?
What's, what's the
conversation at that point?
Marques Manning: Yeah.
For us it's, uh, a lot of
it is trying to be prepared.
So we have a support team, and
when we're in a support contract,
they're coming out, they're doing
preventative maintenance, you know.
Vacuuming out filters and changing things
out and giving reports back to say, Hey,
you're at three years, you're at five
years, whatever you may be, because we
wanna have that conversation early, right?
We wanna start talking to you
to say, okay, everything may be
running fine and we hope it is.
But realistically, once you eclipse that
five year mark, you know you're gonna
be out of any kind of manufacturer,
warranty or anything like that.
And that's when we start
saying, Hey, let's, let's plan.
Uh, cycle or phase so we can
start, you know, refreshing things
because I'm sure no one wants to
refresh all the rooms at once.
It's typically not practical, right?
Because you have, um,
they have to be used.
So what we start looking at then is
saying like, okay, let's plan this.
You know, how do you want
to refresh the spaces?
What needs to happen?
And our whole thing is about
preventing downtime, right?
Because you could say, Hey, I wanna
stretch this out until it fails.
There are some folks that are like that,
but then what happens when it does fail?
Right now there's time to
reconfigure, order new parts
and pieces, do all these things.
So your downtime isn't one or two hours.
Your downtime could be one or two
weeks depending on, you know, what's
happening in the technology world.
And when I say technology
world, I can roll the clock
back to when we transitioned
from analog to digital, right?
There were some rooms
still running analog.
Well, as newer rooms were going.
Digital folks who were kind
of just trying to hold on when
they eventually had failures.
Were not replacing one piece.
For one part, we're doing overall
replacements of the entire system
because now we had to bring you
forward into the digital realm,
whereas you were analog before.
So some of this you have to look at just
what's happening in the world around you.
But generally that's what
we wanna do is just prepare.
Um, and say, Hey, let's, let's
roadmap, like what needs to happen?
And it's not just refreshing
the technology itself.
Have your use cases changed because
how you use a space may change from
year one to year five, year six,
completely normal and acceptable.
And you would think it might,
because again, there's new software,
there are new developments.
You know, teams wasn't
really that big of a thing.
If I roll the clock back 10
years, I, I don't know that
anyone's using it like that.
You know, when COVID hit, zoom
took off, teams came behind it.
WebEx had been around
for a really long time.
But you know, that
changed how people work.
And so it went from, you know, in,
in office spaces, having, you know,
a presentation style conference room.
Every room we outfit now is
video conference capable.
Like, I can't even imagine doing
a room now that can't support a
video conference and moving all this
video and doing all these things.
So all of that is part of
a road mapping process.
'cause again, you, you don't really
want a huge surprise and you can
kind of forecast what's gonna happen.
You know, what needs to change out, what
parts of a system need to change, and
you just lay it all out and say, Hey,
here's, here's what needs to happen.
Here's how you can do it.
Because again, our goal is to make sure
you can avoid that critical failure
or that failure at the wrong time.
So, so a story, it's not really funny
because someone probably had a, a really
negative consequence from this, but to
help people understand it, I always think
about, uh, Steve Jobs, it was when the
iPhone was coming out, and I remember
there was a presentation and there was
one of the presentations he was giving.
Where he tried to show something and
it didn't show up on screen correctly.
Brandon Giella: I've seen this.
Yeah.
Marques Manning: Yep.
And it's happened, like it happened
to, uh, bill Gates with Microsoft once.
And what people don't
understand is that is very real.
You know, we do some rooms where
they support town halls from CEOs.
If the CEO is trying to kick off a
town hall session that's happening
with the users inside the room, as well
as being streamed outbound remotely,
and all of a sudden fails, that is
a problem for everyone involved.
You know, you just embarrass the CEO.
It typically doesn't go well.
So that's when we start talking about
these refreshes like, Hey, our goal is
to not have just impromptu downtime.
We wanna make sure we refresh it out, keep
it running, um, keeping it in good use so
that way, you know, you know it's gonna
be stable when you do need to use it.
I.
Brandon Giella: I drive a, uh, 2017 Honda
C RV with 150,000 miles and a headlight
out, and I've said before, I'm just
gonna drive that thing into the ground.
That's probably not good advice
for a large AV project that's
got a lot of business functions.
Uh, but, but I, but I hear you.
Yeah.
It's good to.
Plan that out and plan ahead.
Um, okay.
Real briefly, what is the, what
is the takeaway you want listeners
to, to bring from this episode?
If they're, they're hearing this,
what would you say is, like, if you're
considering a project like this and
dreaming big and, and want to do
things right, what's their next step?
What should they, what should
they be thinking about?
Marques Manning: Number one, I think I
say it often, bring on a partner early.
Let's talk through it.
Let's understand what is your vision?
What is your dream?
Don't get caught up in the upfront cost.
Right?
That's a, that's a trap, you know?
Don't, don't immediately go into VE
mode, you know, cut this, cut that,
because you don't want to start off
with a space you're not happy with.
But then also.
You wanna pay for it
once, not twice, right?
You don't want to, you know, make choices
for lower tier brands or cut corners.
And so now, instead of making that
five year mark, now you only make,
you know, 18 months, 24 months, and
you're gonna have to replace it.
So don't pay for something twice
when you can pay for it once.
Brandon Giella: I like that.
I like that.
It makes me think of a, I have an old
colleague, very, he said something very
wise where he said, we always have time
or we never have time to do it right,
but we always have time to do it twice.
I thought of that.
That's a great, a great way to think
about it in a budget case too, you know?
Marques Manning: Yeah, absolutely.
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Great.
Well Marcus, thank you for this wisdom.
Thank you for your experience.
I know you've lived through, you got the
scars to show like this is how you should
be doing this and thinking about this.
'cause you, you've lived through
it and you've worked with clients
in a lot of different ways and so I
appreciate your perspective as always,
and I hope this has been useful for.
Folks thinking about
their product coming up.
Uh, so we have a, uh, as I've mentioned
before, we have a lot of exciting
things coming, uh, to contact.com,
so please be on the
lookout at K-O-N-T-E k.com
and get in touch with the team
and hear a lot more about their
wisdom and insight on this project.
And we will see you next
time here on the show.
Marques Manning: Yeah.
Awesome.