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"A LOT with Audra" is the podcast for women juggling big dreams and full lives. Each episode, host, Audra Dinell, Midwestern wife, mom and neurodivergent multi-six figure entrepreneur encourages women to embrace their many roles holistically by living a values-based life with confidence and joy. Through candid discussions, practical strategies and inspiring stories, this podcast is your guide to designing and achieving success without losing yourself in the process.
Ep82
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Meet Megan Saxelby
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[00:00:00]
Audra Dinell: [00:01:00] My guest today is Megan Saxelby, founder of Wild Feelings. Megan helps parents understand adolescents with more compassion, confidence, dignity, and connection. Her work challenges the idea that the tween and teen years are something to simply survive, and instead invites us to see this stage as a deeply important season of becoming for our kids, yes, but also for us as parents.
In this conversation, we talk about what parents misunderstand before adolescence even begins, what it costs us when we buy into the terrible teen narrative, and how we can stay close while our kids become more independent. Welcome, Megan, to the podcast
Megan, thank you for being on the podcast today
Megan Saxelby: Yeah. I'm so excited. It's so great
Audra Dinell: So I am such a fan of yours. I've been following your [00:02:00] Instagram, and as a mom of two boys, seven and nine, you talking about tween and teen years, this has just been like the content that I need.
The Teen Myth
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Audra Dinell: What do you wish more parents understood about adolescence before it began?
Megan Saxelby: Yeah, that the story you've been sold is a lie. That, like, you get sold this message, all of us do, this, like, socially constructed story that basically, ~like,~ as soon as they turn 10, that, ~like,~ your relationship's over, right? That, ~like,~ everything's gonna turn terrible, that, like, your kid's gonna pull away from you, whatever.
And then it actually primes you as a parent to code any behavior to fit that story, and it's not your fault. But that it's you and the story that you bring to this season that primes us for how much we see their behavior. I taught middle school for 15 years, high school for four, ~but, or sort of, I guess it's like, yeah,~ middle school for, what would that be?
11. High school for four. And, [00:03:00] like, I think they're the greatest humans on Earth, and I used to routinely, when I would tell people what I did, I got one of two things, which was either, "Ew, gross or people who were like, "Well, God bless you." And I was like, "No, your reaction is the problem. Like, actually, like, I think they're great." And so I think the thing I want parents to know is that early adolescence in particular, but ~adolescence,~ adolescence in general, is not where your close relationship goes to die. It is so fun. It is so quirky and weird and creative. I'm not saying it's like a fairy tale and easy all the time, but that if you can change the way that you're priming yourself for this phase, it can, like, totally change the way that you experience it
Audra Dinell: And I love the way you said that reaction is actually the problem.
Megan Saxelby: Mm-hmm.
Audra Dinell: Because I know, ~you know,~ the content ~I'm consu-~ I've consumed, you know, a lot of it just has sort of that [00:04:00] good intention, but sort of like scarcity fear element, like you only get 18 summers. And what you're actually saying is you're a parent for life, and yes, every stage and season is going to be different,
Megan Saxelby: Great
Audra Dinell: but the tween and teen years
Megan Saxelby: Mm-hmm.
Audra Dinell: be really great.
It's the story that we've been sold that is the problem, not the actual experience
Megan Saxelby: Right.
Beyond 18 Summers
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Megan Saxelby: And I say this as someone who is 43 and still has enjoyed tremendous summers. Like, I hang out with my parents all the time. Like, I was a nightmare adolescent myself. My mom likes to joke that she used to get nauseous between the ages of 11 and 14 when I was on my way home from school. ~But, like,~ I now... Like, she lives, she rents a house in my neighborhood. It's, like, the joy of my life that she's around the corner, and I, like, go to Trader Joe's anytime when they're about to come into town and, ~like,~ make sure she has fresh flowers. And this is, like, the same woman who threatened to call [00:05:00] DCFS on me when I was 12 because we got into, like, a bad enough fight that she was like, "That's it," you know? Um, and, like, it's... Yeah, it's just this, like, yucky mythos, man. Like, the relationship you build in adolescence is, ~like,~ literally the building blocks for, like, the rest of your life. ~Like,~ I don't know what parents at 18, your kid leaves or goes to college or whatever, and it's just like, "All Well, we're done here. Peace." Like, what are you talking about? ~Like,~ ideally, you are spending the rest of your lives together, and maybe not as neighbors. I feel very lucky that that's our situation, but as people who talk regularly on the phone, who like holidays, who, ~like,~ go on vacation together. ~Like,~ it felt like the biggest win of my life this summer that, ~like,~ we were in a place financially where, ~like,~ we could rent a beach house in South Carolina and just invite my parents, even though I will still argue the greatest all-inclusive resort is your parents' house.
But, like, you know what I mean? It's like, why? Why are we believing this myth? Yes, I get it [00:06:00] that it's, ~like,~ 18 summers of them at home, sure.
Happiness Isn’t the Goal
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Megan Saxelby: But also, ~like, know.~ I feel the same way about that message I feel about when people tell you or, like, you get fed this message that, ~like,~ your goal as a parent is for your kids to be happy. ~Like,~ that is the lamest goal.
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: Like, okay, so you never want them to struggle. You never want them to strive. You never... ~Like, it,~ like, happiness is not a destination you get to. It is a feeling.
Audra Dinell: Oh
Megan Saxelby: thing I feel with this 18 month thing, man, ~right? It's like...~ Or this 18 summers. ~It's like,~ no, I don't...
When people are like, "Oh, what do you want for your kids?" And I'm like, "I want my kids to be resilient, and I want my kids to be funny." Like, that's my joke, people are like, "What?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I want them to be resilient and funny because then, ~like,~ they'll be able to get through anything." And I d- people are like, "What about happy?"
You know, like, I podcast a decent amount, right? And I talk... I'm like a parenting expert, so it comes up a lot, and I'm like, "No, I don't want them to be happy. That's not a goal." Happiness is not a destination. [00:07:00] And to tell our kids that or tell ourselves that is just to, like, woof, moonwalk into guilty all the time, which is just, like, something I do not subscribe to.
Audra Dinell: Right, and disappointment and
Megan Saxelby: Yeah
Audra Dinell: the ability to not be in control of that
Megan Saxelby: Right. Right. Like, think about what, ~what ~pressure that puts on you as a parent ~like,~ "Oh, I just want my kid to be happy." And it's like, no, you don't. You want them to be content. That's a different thing, right?
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: granularity lens. Contentment is different than happiness, ~right? Like, ~gracious or g- having gratitude is different than happiness.
~That means, like, you can reflect, you can... You know what I mean? Like,~ it's like we don't spend enough time thinking about what we actually want. Do we want them to feel happiness throughout life? Of course we do, but we don't want that to be their end goal, 'cause then that means that, ~like,~ struggle is secretly telling our kids that, like, something's wrong, when in reality, ~like, I don't know,~ struggle is a [00:08:00] lot of life. And
Audra Dinell: yeah
Megan Saxelby: same thing with this 18 summers thing, is that it's like, so what, you have eight... I mean, th- they're potatoes until they're li- like two, ~so you're like,~ so what, I actually have 16 summers? And then what, they just evaporate? Like, no, they don't. I have a whole life. can make mistakes. We can have a couple, like, rocky years, you know?
~I,~ I'm here as proof that, like, your mom can threaten to call DC-~ DC-~ on you when you're 12, and then you'll be BFFs when you're in your 40s, right? ~Like,~ you know, it's just, I think it just sets us up for this, ~like,~ really narrow that impacts us and our kids in a way that's like, then one thing goes wrong, and you as the parent, ~like ~moms in particular, then it becomes this, ~like,~ guilt personalization trap.
And it's like, eh, your kids need to see that you're human and, ~like,~ relationships are resilient. We don't want them thinking that, ~like,~ one moment or one kind of bummery summer means, ~like,~ disaster. It's like, no, it just means, ~like,~ we [00:09:00] were human
Audra Dinell: Yeah. Ugh, I want to listen to your audiobook, so if you have not made one, please, like, I could just-
Megan Saxelby: I'm working on that right now actually,
Audra Dinell: Oh, yay.
Megan Saxelby: So I'll, I'll
Audra Dinell: Okay, so please do. But really talking to you makes me just so excited and just
Megan Saxelby: Yeah
Audra Dinell: it feels expansive as a parent to listen to you
Megan Saxelby: Mm-hmm
Audra Dinell: reframe.
Defining Adolescence Ages
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Audra Dinell: So before we go further, what would you describe the ages are for, like, adolescents or pre-adolescents?
Like, ~what,~ what ages are we talking about?
Megan Saxelby: So the funny thing is from sort of a research lens, from a science lens, adolescence is 10 to 25 in sort of the new research framework. So parents are often
Audra Dinell: Wow, 25, huh?
Megan Saxelby: "Uh-huh,
Audra Dinell: that makes me feel a lot better about my decisions
Megan Saxelby: correct, right? So I think when people talk about early adolescence, we talk about 10 to 14. And when people talk about, ~um, like~ there's early adolescence, adolescence, and late adolescence.
So early [00:10:00] adolescence is 10 to 14, that sort of tween, ~um,~ preteen years. in general is like 14 to like 17, 18, and then ~like ~late adolescence is like 18 to 25
Audra Dinell: Okay. That makes a ton of sense.
Megan Saxelby: Mm-hmm.
Cost of the Bad Narrative
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Audra Dinell: So what do you think it costs us when we actually go down the road of believing that teen years are terrible? What's the cost?
Megan Saxelby: connection.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: and, like, ~uh,~ I think connection and self-compassion, number one. ~Like,~
Connection vs Logistics
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Megan Saxelby: you go down the road of, like, then the relationship becomes about auditing, ~Like,~ I always tell parents, one of the biggest tips I have when co- folks come to me for coaching and they're like, "Things feel weird," I'm like, "You need to separate connection and administration." administrative side of parents- parenting all day long. Did you remember, especially in adolescence, when you basically have to, ~like,~ be their living executive function, right? Like, did you remember your backpack? Where's your gym uniform? Like, ba, ba, ba, [00:11:00] ba, ba, ba. And those are different than connecting with our kid. And so I think what it costs us is connection. It also costs us, ~like,~ as parents, this self-compassion, this ability to acknowledge that, ~like,~ doing the best we can. I think the other thing it costs us, it's so funny that you ask this, actually. I just had a ~cr-~ a wonderful call with someone yesterday, or two days ago, who...
A mom who called because she was, like, really worried something was wrong. I was like, "Great. Okay, tell me what's going on." And then she just described a kid who liked his family. Like,
Audra Dinell: Oh
Megan Saxelby: a 12-year-old boy who liked his family. she was like, ~"And, and, but, but, like,~ he doesn't wanna be with his friends as much this summer.
He wants to be with us." And, you know, just worry, right?
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: ~I,~ we spent 35 minutes on the phone, and I was like, "Hey, so what if you just paid to hear me tell you that, like, you're doing a great job?"
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: indications are... Actually, it's funny now that I'm sort of thinking out loud, but, like, I think the biggest thing it costs us is [00:12:00] self-trust,
Audra Dinell: Oh
Megan Saxelby: ability to trust that we know our kids and that we have done a good job.
Audra Dinell: Well, because not only...
Megan Saxelby: yeah, go ahead.
Audra Dinell: No, go ahead
Trust Your Kid
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Megan Saxelby: No, just like when we believe it's gonna be terrible, we stop the kid in front of us. Like, ~this,~ this woman I was on the call with, she has a son, and she's a social media user, and she was g- expressed a lot of concern around, like, the manosphere and, ~like,~ negative content. And I was like, "Yeah, I, I hear you. ~That,~ that fear is real, and it's being shoved down parents' throats." ~Uh,~ what the research around that ignores, though, is that only one in five boys finds any of that content even remotely interesting. The conversation completely ignores the four out of five boys who find it abhorrent and just, ~like,~ make fun of it and troll it. So, ~like,~ what proof do you really have around some of these fears with your kid? And she was like, "Oh, I don't have any."
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: "Yeah, you know your son. Like, you spent..." I was like, "What if [00:13:00] you spent 13 years building a secure base, exactly what you're supposed to do, and now things with his friends feel a little squiggly, he's coming home to the secure base."
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: she was like, "Oh." And she literally, she goes, "Oh, shit." And I was like, "Yeah." Like, this is what the story costs us, that, like, a kid shows up. ~Like,~ he wanted to get an electronic bird feeder. He was using his allowance money to get one of those bird feeders that has the camera in it because he knows that, ~like,~ little brother and the mom both like birds. And so
Audra Dinell: So kind
Megan Saxelby: "Wouldn't that be fun?" was like, you know, immediately skeptical. And I was like, "No.
Audra Dinell: I think,
Megan Saxelby: him. Trust
Audra Dinell: think you, yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the self-trusting, and I've not ever thought about that because the stories, the narratives that are out there about teen years, and then we have to ask, "Well, where did those come from?" But when they're out [00:14:00] there, they can be just strong, very, very strong, especially nowadays.
And then to the opposite part, oftentimes I love to obsess over data, but we can pick out the things that are being, you know, really pushed. And so oftentimes if I'm concerned, ~like ~it's because of like a research statistic that I have heard
Megan Saxelby: Yep
Audra Dinell: of, like you said, just showing up, being in relationship, connection.
I just, ~I, I,~ I was not taught that before I was a parent, that connection is different than, ~like ~like you said, administration, or at my house I call it logistics. And just what a beautiful, accessible way to be like, "You know what? If I just focus on the connection, that's, that's it."
Megan Saxelby: That's
Audra Dinell: Like, that's the number one thing.
Yep
Boundaries Without Shame
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Megan Saxelby: It's where, it's how you hold boundaries, it's how you have consequences that don't breed shame. [00:15:00] It's how you actually, ~like,~ get the kind of behavior you want out of your kid, right? Like, ~I, like I, I, w-~ I constantly reference my own parents, but, like, we would have, ~like,~ a knockdown dra- I was tough.
Like, I did, I ditched school all the time . Like, I was tough, right? And we would have these, like, knockdown drag out, you know, they were never, like, fights, but it was awful because, like, they would come in your bedroom, and my mom, m- you'd have to sit on your bed, and then they would pull up chairs to the end of your bed.
My dad often had
Audra Dinell: Oh
Megan Saxelby: And you, ~you ~had to talk. Like, you had to talk it out. And so it wasn't, ~like,~ a fight, but it felt awful. And but then, ~like,~ don't know, an hour later, like, they'd leave you in your room. Like, you could choose. ~Like,~ "Do you wanna come down and hang out? Do you need to stay up here?"
And I was always the one who was like, "I'm gonna stay upstairs," right? And
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: get a Post-it note on my mirror, ~uh,~ before my mom went to bed that said, like, being a real butthead. We're all still on the same team," with, like, a heart, and
Audra Dinell: Yep. Oh
Megan Saxelby: c- connection [00:16:00] was the through line no matter what. And I, that's what I used to do when I taught middle school, right? A kid was having a really hard time. I just, ~like,~ kept a bevy of, like, memes with stupid stuff on them, and I would just, ~like,~ rather than discipline the kid, I'm in the middle of teaching a lesson, I would, ~like,~ go pull one of those memes I had printed off that was, like, a goat with a weird face. And I would write, like, "I don't know what's going on with you. Can you cool it?" And literally just, ~like,~ stick it on their desk while I walked around.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: not, like, there was no public calling out. There was no... And obviously, like, I was also the grade level dean. So the funny thing was, ~like,~ sometimes people would be like, "You know, you care too much about building relationships with them."
And I was like, "Yeah, I have to 'cause I'm also the one who's gonna have to negotiate the friendship drama that followed them to school. I'm also the one that's gonna have to have a really hard conversation with them about that thing they said to their science teacher." And ~they,~ we can't have a community where they [00:17:00] collapse under shame. We just
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: like, not gonna get us anywhere. And I think, you know, when we zoom out into, ~like,~ the larger kind of world we're all living in too, I think, ~like,~ we really miss the window that identity wounds that happen in adolescence follow us forever and show up in, like, really ugly ways when we get older, the ways we search for power, the ways we search for, you know, all
Audra Dinell: Worth. Yeah
Megan Saxelby: worth, et cetera. And if we can lead with, ~like,~ you can make mistakes without being a mistake, if connection is always the through line, it doesn't mean... 'Cause I think, you know, and there's this whole flare-up right now, right, about, like, gentle parenting is, you know Ruining child whatever. And like every parenting trend gets five years in the spotlight, and then five years later it's like, "That ruined everything."
Like,
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: I'm always like, whatever.
High Support High Expectations
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Megan Saxelby: The research supports up, down, left, right, and center, the thing that matters most [00:18:00] is high expectations and high support, right? It's like authoritative parenting, which is a mix of clear, firm boundaries and high consistent care and love. The reason I'm not a serial killer is because, ~like,~ my parents loved me and took, like so intensely, and also, like took no shit, right?
Like my sister drove drunk like once in high school and, you know, she came home that night. They didn't make a big deal out of it because there was no point, and then the two front tires were missing. When she
Audra Dinell: Yep
Megan Saxelby: to school the next day, my dad had leaned her bike against the car
Audra Dinell: Ooh, dang, those are moves that gives m- give me chills.
Megan Saxelby: "Yeah."
Audra Dinell: parent, like, "Oh, I want that."
Megan Saxelby: Uh-huh, and then we all walked out to go to school, and my sis- you know, the look on her face, and he was like, "Yeah, listen, you're late 'cause you're used to it taking you, ~like,~ seven minutes to get to school, and, ~uh,~ today it's
Audra Dinell: 14.
Megan Saxelby: you [00:19:00] 25.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: anyways, I'm taking your brother and your sister, though, in the car, so enjoy." You know,
Audra Dinell: See ya
Megan Saxelby: know, she was like, "Oh, oh, oh." You know? And he was like, "Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I guess just letting you figure out." Right? Like, the house I came from modeled a lot of, you know, kind of how I ended up surviving, and then a lot of what I brought to teaching, and then got backed by all the research I did.
And adolescents need us to be the firm guiding light.
Helping Anxious Kids Grow
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Megan Saxelby: They don't want... You know, I think parents often, anxiety, kids, anxious kids is one of the reason or places you can see this so clearly, is that, like, you have an anxious kid, a lot of parents go out of their way to try to accommodate, right? They try to accommodate the anxiety, remove the stressor, when in reality, ~like,~ research says that's the exact wrong move, right?
Like, Dr. Eli Ledward does the leading research around ~early ad- or~ childhood adolescence, and, ~like,~ all the research says, ~like,~ no, they need a mix of high validation, that their emotional [00:20:00] experience is real,
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Megan Saxelby: high expectations. I
Audra Dinell: Yep
Megan Saxelby: man. Like, ugh, anxiety feels yucky in the body. I am with you. I know that it is real.
Also, you are brave, is a skill, and we learn it by doing things we don't like.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: right? Like, nope, we're not removing you from the thing.
Holding the Line
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Megan Saxelby: Like, we're not... My five-year-old this summer doesn't wanna go to summer camp 'cause she said, and I quote, "It's too much body work and not enough brain work."
Audra Dinell: Oh
Megan Saxelby: Because she just wants to color all day, and
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Megan Saxelby: and stuff like that.
Audra Dinell: Oh, me too, sis. Me too
Megan Saxelby: like, "Lucy, listen. I hear you. I also wanna just color your Demon Hunters coloring book with you all day.
Audra Dinell: Yes
Megan Saxelby: Mom and Dad have to work, and you have to go to summer camp. So, like, suck it up, buttercup.
Like, you're
Audra Dinell: Right. Right. Ooh,
Megan Saxelby: "Meh."
Audra Dinell: I love that
Megan Saxelby: Your job is to withhold, right, ~the,~ and hold the line and not take the meh like, a personal [00:21:00] attack. It's just ~like,~ yeah, it's a reaction you're allowed to have
Discomfort Isn’t Failure
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Audra Dinell: Or not assume that because you have a kid who in the moment is not happy that you are failing as a parent
Megan Saxelby: Correct. And also, ~like,~ woof. And our age, 'cause how old are you?
Audra Dinell: How old am I? I'm 40. Yeah
Megan Saxelby: 40. I'm 43.
Capitalism And Parenting Pressure
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Megan Saxelby: So we also~ like... mean,~ talk about ~the,~ a generation who has had like so much of our parenting experience co-opted by ~like ~capitalism and social media,
Audra Dinell: Yep
Megan Saxelby: like from the second our babies were born, it was
Audra Dinell: Oh, yeah
Megan Saxelby: through the night? Here's a course.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: this?" And I say this fully aware that I ~like ~market myself on social media, but it's hard. ~Like,~ it's hard not to assume that
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: discomfort means we've failed and something's wrong
Audra Dinell: Yeah. I think the through line other than connection though I see is that creativity. Your parents modeled it, you model it, you modeled it with your middle schoolers, now you model it as a parenting coach. The tips that I [00:22:00] love the most from you are tips that I'm like, "Oh, man, that's good, and that's creative," right?
Megan Saxelby: Yeah
Audra Dinell: creativity.
Tween Parenting Second Act
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Audra Dinell: So this season on the podcast we're talking about second acts, and you and I met in December at a retreat, and I started following your work and thought, "You know what? This tween year that I'm getting ready to step into, this sort of feels like a second act of parenting, because the things that I did and that worked and that I was learning with my little kids, I wonder if those are going to stop working.
The little kid tools, do they stop working? And if so, talk about, ~like,~ what replaces them
Megan Saxelby: Yes. ~Um,~ so no, they don't stop working. We stop believing that they work.
Audra Dinell: Oh, okay. Say more. What do we drop that we shouldn't?
Keep The Playfulness
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Megan Saxelby: is the bridge to everything. [00:23:00] Silliness, fun, weirdness,
Audra Dinell: Okay. Yeah
Megan Saxelby: the bridge to everything good. What we lose when we drop it is becoming the model that we want our kids to live, which is people who are their full authentic selves. We stop being our full authentic, like silly, goofy selves when they get older because they react to us differently, and we assume the reaction means we're the problem, when in fact it's just a moment where they are very self-conscious. ~What, like,~ so I think we lose, we think that the little kid stuff doesn't work, and it, I think it still works like gangbusters. Jokes work. Silly things work. I think that is a big piece of it.
Stay A Full Person
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Megan Saxelby: I think the other thing when you talk about, ~like,~ what do I have to shift, I think the missing thing or the, like, what might change for me as my kid gets older that didn't work when they were little, and I hope you can hear this in the spirit in which I intend it, for all adolescent parents, [00:24:00] is your entire identity into them
Audra Dinell: Oh, yeah
Megan Saxelby: requires, if you are going to survive it well, it requires you taking a step back from how much of the emotional and sort of logistical ecosystem of the house they get to control. They need to see you being a full person who ditches them to go out to dinner with friends, who asks for a ride to go somewhere, and occasionally you're like, "No, you know, Dad and I wanna do something tonight, and it doesn't involve being your chauffeur." Right?
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: they... I think parents continue in, ~in...~
Like, my kids are two and a half and five. They can't do a lot of things on their own, right? Like, their needs, wants, desires, ~like,~ their just sort of lack of full regulatory systems, like, that takes up a lot of our lives, right? And it should, because that's developmentally appropriate. When your kids get [00:25:00] older, wanna start modeling for them that they aren't the only, ~uh,~ being that gets to exist in the world. The developmental narcissism of adolescence is important. That's, ~like,~ literally how you develop an identity, right? Like, you have to be self-focused. But our job as parents is actually to stop accommodating. And so I think the mix of that is that, ~like,~ if you like being silly and playful and doing little kid things with them, you don't have to drop that just 'cause they roll their eyes at you. You being like, "This is what I like, and this is who I am," consistently important. And
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: parents, we sometimes... The parents that I watched when I was a middle school parent or teacher and dean for years, and now as a coach, like, the parents who have the hardest time is the parents who didn't kind of keep up their own
Audra Dinell: Oh, so interesting
Megan Saxelby: own interests, and then their kid gets older and pulls away, and ~it's like th- ~the harder thing to sit with is like, "What do I [00:26:00] do? How do I take care of myself in the, some of this new openness?" You have kids who all of a sudden sleep in till, like, 11 o'clock on a Saturday, when four years ago, you were up by 7:00.
You were taking kids to sports. You were like, in my case, ~like,~ out the door by 8:00 'cause you had to get to a park 'cause they were feral by, like, 9:00. You know, and,
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: you don't have to do that. So, like,~ what are you,~ what are you doing with, ~like,~ your mornings? You know, what are you doing with some evenings if it's the summer, and they wanna, ~like,~ couch rot and stay up late with their friends and watch a show? And you're like, "Okay, I guess I can, ~like,~ go do my own thing," to some extent, right? You still have to, like, keep an eye on what's going on.
Build Connection On Purpose
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Megan Saxelby: But... And I think when you're like, ~"What,~ what's gonna change?" What's gonna change is the kinds of tactics that... ~And,~ and how you perceive, I think this is a big one That connection should be natural. connection when they're little is natural. They run up to you, they hug you, they wanna sit on their lap. We [00:27:00] often don't know how to upskill building connection when they get older. So I
Audra Dinell: Okay, let's...
Megan Saxelby: yeah, that
Audra Dinell: I was gonna say let's go there
Megan Saxelby: yes, closeness in adolescence isn't luck, it's built. what that means is doing small things often, so they aren't gonna run up to you, right?
~Like,~ and they might. Plenty of, you know, we can't talk in sort of bland generalizations. A lot of kids still hug their parents, snuggle, whatever. But it's ~like,~ it's not as easy. And when it stops being easy, sometimes we take that personally as them pulling away, and it's like, no, you just need better tactics.
Weird Questions And Anchor Rituals
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Megan Saxelby: Like, you need to ask weirder questions
Audra Dinell: Hmm
Megan Saxelby: ~hums-~ comes home from school. Like, they don't wanna tell you how their day was.
Audra Dinell: Right.
Megan Saxelby: that's a boring question.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: want to answer, like, "What was the worst thing you smelled today?"
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Megan Saxelby: know? And then you follow that thread into conversations about other stuff. They don't want [00:28:00] you to sort of be up in their business all the time. They want some time to sort of~ sort of like~ be alone with their friends or explore in other ways. And so it's like how are you giving them space and then still doing forced family fun, right? There's
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: really fascinating research that anchor behavior, so families having one, just one, don't make yourself crazy here, people, one anchor behavior during adolescence had like a ~20,~ 20% reduction in anxiety and depression in youth, and that was something like family dinner on Fridays, family movie nights on Sundays. And one thing that's like connection... Like, we used to have forced family fun, is what my dad called it.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: you'd just be like, "I don't wanna do it," and he'd be like, "Too bad," you know? ~Like,~ "This is what we're doing." And I think sometimes the push that... ~Like,~ the thing they can give you, right, the eye roll, so like, "Ugh, right?
Like that kind of stuff y- you wanna shrink, [00:29:00] and in reality it's like sometimes you have to hang out with someone who doesn't wanna hang out with you,
Audra Dinell: Ja. Ja
Megan Saxelby: "We're gonna do this. We're gonna have dinner." But then it's also when you're at dinner and the kid's being sullen, don't just ~like ~throw your hands up and say ~like,~ "Well, this sucks, and everything's ruined."
It's like, "Well, we're gonna ask weirder questions, and if you wanna participate, great,"
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: things like how can you ~like ~go to Target on a Friday night or whatever store and give each kid like, I don't know, $5 and say like, "You have to put together the weirdest snack Go."
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: had parents who ha- You know, I coach, and I had a family once, and the kids came, and then ~like ~everyone brings them home, and then everyone in the family has to try them.
Audra Dinell: Oh, wow
Megan Saxelby: ~one kid,~ like one kid got one Snickers bar and a thing of romaine lettuce. So then
Audra Dinell: Ooh.
Megan Saxelby: had to eat small
Audra Dinell: Snickers salad
Megan Saxelby: in romaine lettuce, right? Like,
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: The is what we forget, right? So then it's like, okay, so let's say you do the Snickers challenge once, [00:30:00] and you do it once, and that's it. And let's say the kid brought home romaine lettuce and Snickers, right? And it was disgusting, and everyone thought it was
disgusting.
And then you all watch some like unhinged movie from the '80s that was PG in 1984 and would definitely not be PG today, right?
Audra Dinell: Made that mistake a lot this summer
Megan Saxelby: oh, I have too, Howard the Duck. Like, ~what a,~ what a nightmare show that is as an adult.
Family Shorthand Moments
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Megan Saxelby: then, but like Snickers, like Snickers lettuce can become a family shorthand. So a kid comes home and had something really yucky happen, and now you have a shorthand for the emotional experience to sit down next to your kid and be like, "Was today just like Snickers lettuce?" And they know exactly what that means.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: they say yes, and you know exactly what that means. It doesn't have
Audra Dinell: Hmm.
Megan Saxelby: a whole thing. You know that it was unexpected and weird and gross. And they don't
Audra Dinell: [00:31:00] Ah.
Megan Saxelby: all the details. They can if they want to, but you now can follow that thread of like, "Ugh, all right." And then you don't say anything else in the car. You put on a song that you know they really like, that's it. ~And you just give the... Right? Like,~ you wanna see these things where you can sort of build connection as not just these one-offs. ~They're f-~ they're building blocks, right? ~They're threads to like...~
So if you can get your kids to be more playful about these kinds of things, ~like, you know,~ you know, you get a little less eye roll when they're like 10, 11, 12 than you do ~when they're ~
~seven-~ when they're, like, 15. ~But it's like, okay, so you have a 13-year-old that's like But if you had this funny moment from when they were 11,~ But if you had this funny moment from when they were 11, like Snickers lettuce works for the rest of their life. We had an issue with ~my,~ sister and my mom where they got into a fight in a parking lot, and my sister was 16 or 17, and like mom offered her a piece of a, a muffin. And my sister was upset about something else, and then just goes like, "God! It's always muffins, muffins, muffins." ~And like, right,~ what my sister was mad about was that [00:32:00] my mom sometimes...
I love my pancakes, but like Mom sometimes has a hard time sitting with our discomfort and tries to fix it. So my sister
Audra Dinell: Yep
Megan Saxelby: about something, and she just wanted space to be upset. So when my mom offered her a muffin, my sister was like, muffins, muffins," right? Muffins, muffins, muffins.
Like, I'm 43. Like, muffins, muffins, muffins is still family shorthand.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: my mom is being a little too much I need a little space from her, I'll be like, "Pam, muffins, muffins, muffins." And
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: "Okay, great. Mm-hmm. Got it." ~And I,~ so I think that's what we wanna remember too, is that ~like ~you've gotta build these things, and sometimes that means ~like ~tolerating a kid who's got a bad attitude or putting in a little bit of effort, not a ton, to do one thing once a week and stick to it.
And, you know, are not always reliable narrators. So they say ~like,~ "This is the worst," blah, blah, blah, "I don't wanna do it." And you just go like, "Okay." And then 20 minutes later, they're like laughing and doing the thing, ~right? Like~ the same [00:33:00] way my five-year-old is complaining about going to camp, and then I pick her up and she's like, "Oh, it's the best day," you know?
And
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: You know, I picked her up yesterday and she yelled at me that I picked her up too early.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: I was like, ~"You,~ you cried for 11 minutes on the drive over here this morning, and now it's
Audra Dinell: I timed it
Megan Saxelby: she's like, "Yeah, we were..." And then I did 'cause I was trying to survive it, you know?
Audra Dinell: Yep. Yep
Megan Saxelby: I was trying not to turn around. Like, I
Audra Dinell: Yep
Megan Saxelby: a living, and I was still trying not... I had to like turn on some mus- like, so I think it was the ~K-~ K-pop Demon Hunters. So I didn't give in 'cause like I wanted to turn the car around and take
Audra Dinell: Yeah. Yeah
Megan Saxelby: know? But so I think the little kid stuff still works. You just have to think about it a little differently and have a little more, ~you know,~ stamina and tolerance for their attempts to derail some of your connection techniques
Audra Dinell: Oh, ~I lo- I,~ I just feel so encouraged by this and I feel like, oh my gosh, in real time my parenting thoughts and strategy are, like, [00:34:00] reformulating in my head of like,~ okay, here's,~ here are all the ways I'm going to step into this next season, but not make it a whole identity thing
Megan Saxelby: ~And I think that's like the--~ It's so funny.
The Story You Tell Yourself
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Megan Saxelby: The thing I think about the most is also just like a lot of it's a~ it's a s- y-~ self-fulfilling prophecy either way in whichever story you choose to tell yourself. ~Like,~ there's a reason my parent coaching program is called It's Gonna Be Great
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Megan Saxelby: that's what I believe.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: gonna be great. And like, ~you know,~ fun fact, that's what the research actually supports, is that, like, it actually is this massive period of potential and brain growth. ~It's literally the--~ Warren Steinberg, one of the leading researchers, calls it the new zero to three. And I don't say that from the like, "Oh, great," 'cause we had to, like, obsess about everything when it was zero to three.
But in terms of potential, like neurological potential for, ~like,~ personality and all these things. ~And, like,~ can you imagine when your kid was, ~like,~ two if you'd just been like, "Meh, uh, this is a lot of work. I'm out"? Or you just, ~like,~ accepted the story that, like, [00:35:00] don't deserve the same, ~like,~ love, care, and attention because they're being hard.
Like, I
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: other hard part about the story that we don't think about enough that have this sort of dual perspective, right? 'Cause I taught middle school forever, and I was the, ~like,~ beloved teacher that everyone came to, and it's so great. Like, I get invited to, ~like,~ wedding... It's so
Audra Dinell: Oh
Megan Saxelby: to a wedding recently, and I was like, "How is this possible?
You're 12." And
Audra Dinell: Right
Megan Saxelby: was like, "He's definitely 28 years old, but okay." I went to the wedding, and they were all like... ~The--~ My whole career kids called me Sax instead of Miss Saxelby. And, like, I got seated at the kids' table with all of them, and they, ~like,~ refused to drink alcohol. I was like, "Guys, ~like,~ you're all...
Like, I know this is weird 'cause I was, ~like,~ your middle school teacher, but, like, you're all adults. You should just, ~like,~ go do whatever you want." ~like, it doesn't...~ the best, and when you believe that they can be the best, 28, and they invite you to their wedding
Audra Dinell: Hmm.
High Expectations High Support
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Audra Dinell: High expectations,
Megan Saxelby: Yeah, and high support.
~Like, that was, uh,~ that's like the [00:36:00] running joke is that they were, ~like,~ this group of kids in particular 'cause then of course they spent a big chunk of the evening reminiscing about all the weird... And a lot of it was about, like, the weird things I said or did when I had them, right? And they were like, "Remember when you used to say this or you used to call it,
Audra Dinell: So fun
Megan Saxelby: ~You know, they would like,~ you know, when you'd turn in a pa- ~Like,~ this, one kid was like, "Remember every time I turned in a paper and I'd clearly written it, like, 20 minutes before class, and you just had that stamp that said weak sauce, and you just, like, put it in the middle and refused to read the rest of it, and then just gave it back to me until it was better?" ~You know, and like,~ he's like, you know, little things like that. But it's like they still knew that I had their back and cared about them and believed they had amazing potential, and then they, ~like,~ rose to the occasion than, ~like...~ I think about how often I watch videos of graduations, particularly fifth grade moving up ceremonies, and the principal at the mic in front of the children makes a joke about, ~like,~ "Well, get ready, parents.
~Like,~ next year they're all gonna stop talking to you." And I'm [00:37:00] like, "The kids are in the room." Like,
Audra Dinell: You just wanna throw tomatoes.
Megan Saxelby: of you. Yeah, just like they're right in front of
Audra Dinell: Shh.
Megan Saxelby: so mean.
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: what are they supposed to do with that then when someone's, ~like,~ drunk uncle comes up to them at a graduation party and is like, "You're gonna stop talking to your mo-" You're just like, "Oh, well, I don't know what to do," you know?
I think it's like we forget that too. Like, they're full humans,
Audra Dinell: Yep
Megan Saxelby: know they're not easy. Like I said, I taught middle school for a long time. ~Like,~ I know they're not, ~like,~ a walk in the park all the time, but, like, the more that you treat them as, ~like,~ capable and interesting funny and weird and just give them permission to be a little tough because, like,
Audra Dinell: Yeah
Megan Saxelby: a person is hard, ~the,~ the better they show up and the more that you can actually, like, enjoy the season
Back To School Encouragement
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Audra Dinell: Okay, so as we close our conversation, which I'm like we have to have a part two because there's so much more I wanna ask you, leave us with one thought. [00:38:00] This episode's coming out in July. We have a few weeks left of summer before back to school. Just give us like one thought,~ one final nugget,~ one important thing you want our listeners to hear who might have a teen or a tween or are about to
Megan Saxelby: ~That, uh,~ you are doing a great job
Audra Dinell: Oh, thank you. I'm pretending like you're talking to me
Megan Saxelby: Yeah, I am. I mean, I'm looking at you. It's your
Audra Dinell: Thank you
Megan Saxelby: you're doing a great job. They love you. They care about you. This is a season in a long parenting journey, and that you are doing a good job
Audra Dinell: And I think all parents, we, we wanna hear that,
Megan Saxelby: Yeah.
Audra Dinell: to hear that, so thank you
Megan Saxelby: and it's in July, everyone's also gonna be like you know, in the throes of like, "Ah, I gotta get ready for school," all the things. And like, it's about to get hard.
Family Care Chart Tip
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Megan Saxelby: Also, ~just like,~ if nothing else, I'll, ~I'll ~give myself permission to add one more, which is that ~like ~if you prioritize nothing else, ~uh,~ in back to school season, it's ~like ~make a [00:39:00] family care chart. A family care chart is where everyone in the family, you get the list of what's their current favorite sweet treat, what's their current favorite song, what's the one thing they need, they like the most when they're having a hard time. You put them down somewhere public, the fridge. Make a... If you have a crafty kid, make a poster and ~like ~put it on a wall in the hallway, somewhere where everyone walks by every day, so belonging in your family can be an open book test and not something that people have to guess about. That'll get you through the summer, the school year, the next five years better than anything else
Audra Dinell: Oh, I love that. I've never heard of that, and we're doing one.
Wrap Up And Where To Follow
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Audra Dinell: We're gonna link your website and Instagram. You're so active on, ~um,~ Instagram, and I just get so many tips from you. ~Um,~ but other listeners can go to the website, too, to see how they can check out more of your work and work with you
Megan Saxelby: [00:40:00] Yeah. Thanks so much.
Audra Dinell: Thanks, Megan.