Knowledge Unbound

This week we talk to Greg Spottedbird and Mariko Rooks about the Youth Ambassador program, formed for the descendants of the Sand Creek Massacre and Japanese internment camp to be in community with each other. I am joined by Rae Solomon of KUNC, the NPR affiliate in Northern Colorado. Episode recorded at the Sand Creek National Historic Site. 

What is Knowledge Unbound?

The RIOS (for a Racially-just Inclusive Open STEM Education) Institute presents an interview podcast where Dr. Bryan Dewsbury of the Science Education And Society (SEAS) lab converses with individuals who do social justice work in science education and education in general. We hope people enjoy the conversation itself, and consider new ways in which education can be transformative whatever your situation may be.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Welcome back everyone. Knowledge Unbound episode 10. It it kinda hurts a little bit because, know, I wish we would do it like 15 or 20. But I have something that's gonna soothe my pain. I I actually I don't know if Ray feels the same, but I told Ray off camera how much I I kinda grew up on NPR when I moved to The US.

Bryan Dewsbury:

It it just the only programs they had, you know, gave me a different slice of understanding what America was about. And so I I'm really, really truly honored to be joined today as a co host Ray Solomon, k u n c ninety one point five if you're in Colorado, the NPR affiliate out here ray..org

Ray:

if you're not in Colorado.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Alright. The website kunc.org. Well, I'm gonna put that on the knowledge on bound website for this episode. Ray, welcome to knowledge on bound.

Ray:

Well, thank you, Brian. I'm happy to be here.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, tell us about yourself. How long you've been with NPR?

Ray:

I've been with I've been in public radio for about five years

Bryan Dewsbury:

Okay.

Ray:

Now. I started working at KUNC three weeks, get this, three weeks before the pandemic lockdowns.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Really?

Ray:

Yeah. So it was quite the and journalism is a second career for me, so it was quite the quite the introduction to

Bryan Dewsbury:

a new career. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Welcome to journalism. Here's a global pandemic. Right. Start writing. Pretty amazing.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, through Ray, I was introduced to a wonderful group and we were very, very, very lucky to have two representatives from that group here today. Greg Spotted I'm sorry, and Marika Rooks who one, Marika is a descendant from Japanese who will con in a concentration camp here in Southeast Colorado and Greg Spotted Bird is a member of the Cheyenne tribe massacre that happened in the mid mid eighteen hundred, 300 killed while they were asleep. Both sites are very near each other and they've developed a wonderful program called youth ambassadors where the descendants of those incidents are in community with each other.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Thank you, Ray, for letting me meet them.

Ray:

Yeah. I'm really glad that this worked out because as we were just talking about, it is not easy to get everyone together. And, you know, not only are they doing that education program, but they're doing it on location in very remote Southeast Colorado, which, you know, you walk out the door, you look around, there's nothing around here. Right? Yeah.

Ray:

Maybe there's a few fence posts, there's range land.

Bryan Dewsbury:

A lot of wind.

Ray:

A lot of wind. But the the people at the heart of the story and the people whose histories are in this location, they're not here anymore. So that's it's really special that

Bryan Dewsbury:

we were

Ray:

able to get everyone together.

Bryan Dewsbury:

And just to orient people sorry to interrupt you. But just to orient people, we are at the Sand Creek massacre site, it's a national park. We did record this podcast live at that site. Ray, before we get into it, tell us a little bit about how you because this this what this episode we're doing, we we're doing it because of the story that you did with them, kunc.org. How did you get onto them and and to do that story?

Ray:

You know, stories come across my desk all the time. I'm a reporter. I focus on rural issues in Northern Colorado. Uh-huh. And this came through as just a simple press release that something was happening, that they were the two communities, Amache and Sand Creek, descendant communities, were collaborating Mhmm.

Ray:

On a youth education program, and I thought that sounded really cool. I wanted to be on location with my microphone. You talked about, you know, NPR as your introduction to the country. That's the thing that I love so much about radio and specifically national public radio is

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah. It's

Ray:

you know, the power of just bringing people's voices to the nation. And I I just knew I needed to be here on location with the group when when they were starting the program. And so I reached out, made my connections. It took a few months. It took a few it took a lot of warming up of sources What yeah.

Ray:

Because not everyone is happy to speak to a reporter, I you mean Absolutely. Especially this day and age, a lot of people are suspicious. So, I came out here for the first time about it wasn't the first time I was out here, but for this story about just about a year ago

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah.

Ray:

And reported on that collaboration between the two communities for my home station for KUNC. And then six months later, last October, I came back and, you know, half participated, half reported

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah.

Ray:

On the Healing Line, and that story is for NPR, for the National Network. So I was able to do two stories that I'm really proud of on this incredible collaboration between these two groups.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Well, I hope that you are equally proud of the conversation that we have with them today. Hope you enjoyed. We'll see you at the end. Welcome, everyone. This is I think this is actually our last episode, SIGEV of Knowledge Unbound.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I mean, obviously, I enjoy every episode that I do, but this is pretty special. We're recording this episode live at the Sand Creek Massacre site from National well, national park, but I I like to think of it as a memorial site. Couple things. This is a special place. I'm gonna get into why it's a special place in a minute.

Bryan Dewsbury:

But I'm also joined by a wonderful cohost today from KUNC out here in Northern Colorado. You can get it on 915. Ray Sullivan, talk to us.

Ray:

Hey, Brian. It's good to be here. I'm glad that I was able to bring you out here.

Bryan Dewsbury:

So I met Ray through a mutual friend. And Ray, actually, just full credit to Ray, she's the one who put me onto the story. She did a wonderful a wonderful profile of a wonderful group called Amachi, and we have guests from this this project on camera today. They'll tell you more about it. Marico Collins.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Sorry. Marico Williams. Where do I get

Mariko Rooks:

Marico Brooks.

Bryan Dewsbury:

So three times I say, you ever forgive me?

Mariko Rooks:

Third third time's a charm.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Third time's a charm. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, in my defense, I always have my guests introduce themselves. Okay.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I shouldn't I shouldn't have even tried. We can as your intro. Michael Rooks, tell us about yourself.

Mariko Rooks:

Hello. My name is Mariko Fujimono Rooks. I am a black and Japanese, descendant of the Amachi Concentration Camp, which was one of 10 total concentration camps, or prison camps that Japanese Americans were sent to during World War two. And my grandfather and my grandfather's family were at Amache, which is only about a forty minute drive from the Sand Creek massacre site. So we have had the real honor of working with survivors from both communities to form a new program that engages our youth and teaches them more about their shared history and encourages them to take stewardship over their places, their healing, and, their thoughts for what they want to see at these places moving forward.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Thank you. Greg?

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes. My name is Greg Lingwell. I'm a Cheyenne. I'm. I am a direct descendant of the events that happened here at Sand Creek.

Greg Spottedbird:

More specifically, I my family comes from the dog soldier and the warriors camp that was actually 15 miles north of here at the massacre site. I've been involved with the the youth and teaching for around fifteen years. I've been involved with Sand Creek since around 02/2004. I actually did the story on the opening of the National Historic Site when it opened up a few years later than that. So I've been involved quite a bit here at the Sand Creek Massacre Site with National Park Service, Library of Congress, and and the Sand Creek Massacre Foundation.

Greg Spottedbird:

And I'm now the national chair of the Sand Creek Massacre Foundation. So we do a lot of work for that. And, again, we do a lot of work for our youth continuing to tell the story of the Sand Creek Massacre, which is important, and keeping that alive. And as the ancestors were being run down, they told the ones that were running, they got away, never to forget them, so we won't forget them. And this past year, we worked very hard on a curriculum that met the standards of the school system here in Colorado.

Greg Spottedbird:

It was passed through legislation, and we've we took that and presented it at the NCSS in Boston this past year, and it was approved on a national level. So now it's in 36 states in the country and three countries around the world. Wow. So that curriculum about the Sand Creek Massacre is in the classroom now for the first time in history.

Bryan Dewsbury:

So So I feel like there are three stories here, Ray, please interrupt me at any point. I promise you I'll not be offended

Ray:

because I think you're right. The story sounds about right.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Well well, so and tell me if I'm right about this. Right? There's the the massacre. Mhmm. There is the internment camp.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Mhmm.

Mariko Rooks:

The incarceration camp. Yes.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Correct. Concentration camp. Mhmm. And then there's a program that you all have created where you have the descendants of of both

Mariko Rooks:

groups Yes.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Talking to each other. Yes. I I would like because the audience may not know of either of the three of any of these three. So just I would like either of you to maybe start by just summarizing. Ray?

Bryan Dewsbury:

I was

Ray:

just gonna say, it might be nice right now to set the scene. What does it look like? Our our listeners aren't here. They don't have our view. I think it's nice to sort of set the scene

Bryan Dewsbury:

Mhmm.

Ray:

And then walk through that history. So we're on the Eastern Plains, the Southeastern Plains Of Colorado. It's pretty remote out here.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Three hours from Denver.

Ray:

Three hours from Denver. Mhmm. Pretty windy, grassy plains. Absolutely beautiful, grassy plains. And if we're gonna zoom in, there's the Sand Creek, which is a a creek, and at this big bend in the creek, if we zoom in a little bit further.

Ray:

Greg, I want you to take it from here. What happened? Right.

Greg Spottedbird:

Okay. So we were we were promised a place of peace, A place where, if you heard me speak this morning, a place where our people would finally be able to stop running. Entire generations were running for years. For for generations, they were running from from attacks. So they told us to move to this place.

Greg Spottedbird:

You know, as you can see right outside here, the creek bends. And in that bend, there was multiple camps of Cheyenne and Arapaho. And the southern part, southeastern part was was probably the setting of the Arapaho Camp. And then you went into Lone Bear and, you know, Black Kettles Camp and White Antelope's Camp, and they went further into the into the bend. And on the north side of that was the horse the the horse herds, the pony herds.

Greg Spottedbird:

So that's where they moved us here. To us, it wasn't the most beautiful place to be because we came from a mountainous country, very green and and and a lot of water. And then they move us here as they did to a lot of tribes, a place where you can't grow corn, you can't grow a lot of the vegetables that we used to eat, you know.

Bryan Dewsbury:

And this was the early eighteen hundreds if you

Greg Spottedbird:

1864

Bryan Dewsbury:

Okay. To

Greg Spottedbird:

be exact. So they moved us here, but but we were happy because we were told we were gonna finally be at peace. And they gave us a flag and a even a white flag because they were so afraid of being attacked by soldiers. And that flag was supposed to to give us a a peace of mind that we wouldn't be attacked or we wouldn't have to worry about those things that we was like I said, we spent years running from to try to avoid confrontations with the with the troops. You know?

Greg Spottedbird:

So we were safe here. But like like we was talking about earlier, this place is really desolate to us, you know, very little water sources. And and if you look at the creek now, it's pretty much dried up. So it wasn't very much different back then. And, of course, the winters here from Kansas on over this way are pretty harsh, and and the event, unfortunately, took place during the winter months.

Greg Spottedbird:

You know? So it was really harsh for for our people, but, again, we survived in those elements as we were always known to survive in in a lot of different places. So that's where we are right now at the Sand Creek. And I'm gonna let Marika talk about what was right down the road here because that's the event following Sand Creek.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I would Quickly before we pass to Morocco, so so we had the pleasure of you gave us a brief tour of the actual site Yes. Of the massacre. My first time being there was a very solemn experience. I did notice the geography. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury:

So the the bluffs. Mhmm. So and you pointed out where the troops came from.

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes.

Bryan Dewsbury:

So if if if my memory serves me correct, where they came from, it would have been difficult for you in the creek, for the for the people in the creek, to see them coming.

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Did that play a role in the the amount of people who died in that massacre?

Greg Spottedbird:

It it it may have played a role, but the the majority was just at being attacked while they were sleeping, you know, being attacked at dawn. So a lot of them were weren't even able to get out of their lodges. There were a few stories about people that saw the troops coming. As I was talking to the students earlier, the horse herds, of course, were on the northern side and where the bluffs were. So they were able to kinda see a little bit of the the approaching troops coming to the to the camp.

Greg Spottedbird:

So they were able to hurry up and run into the camp and try to warn as many people to come. By the time you've run down in those bluffs and you've reached the camp, they were already here, you know, and they didn't waste no time attacking. What they did do was take off their coats, but we can get to that a little further on. But, you know, that was that was something that was really surprising to a lot of people, was Chivington made them all take off their coats, and then they attacked. But, yeah, to answer your question, you know, it was it was more being asleep.

Greg Spottedbird:

They attacked at dawn, so pretty much the entire camp was asleep at that time.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Thank you. So. Alright. And

Mariko Rooks:

so with the removal of Cheyenne Arapaho and other indigenous people who called this place home, there suddenly became this pretty remote, pretty desolate area where there weren't too many people who were living. And after the bombing of Pearl Harbor in World War two, that sort of start kicks off US involvement in World War two, the US government and this is largely driven by farmers associations who are deeply threatened by Japanese Americans who have found success farming land, especially land that other people cannot grow crops on in places like California, Oregon, and Washington. And so, you know, less than a week after Pearl Harbor happens, you have this delegation that goes to the White House and says, I think that, you know, all of these Japanese people who are living on the Western Coastline, that's the coast that's closest to Japan, We think that they could be enemy spies, and The US is looking for someone to blame. They're looking for a place to put this public outcry, and the two other people that are fighting in this war are ethnically European but racially white. Right?

Mariko Rooks:

And so

Bryan Dewsbury:

Italian and German.

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah. Italian and German.

Bryan Dewsbury:

And, of

Mariko Rooks:

course, there are sanctions put in place on those communities. There are leaders in those communities who are also imprisoned. But what we see in the Japanese American community is that pretty much every single Japanese person who lived in, the exclusion order zone, which was most of the West Coast, which is again where people have these more prosperous farms, where people have these established communities in different cities and different towns across, sort of the Western Coast, Every single person is told to pack only what they can carry, that their land is no longer going to be theirs. They have to sell all of their possessions, all of their belongings, and they're first held in these different race tracks and horse stalls that are on the West Coast. And then they are trained out to these different remote camps, the farthest away being in Arkansas.

Mariko Rooks:

And, one of them was Amache, which is very close to here. And so Amache is in the town of Grenada, which is very close between sort of the the Colorado and the Kansas border. Mhmm. And these people had no idea where they were being sent. They had no idea really sort of what they were being charged with.

Mariko Rooks:

A lot of our leaders in the community were snatched and taken to even more intense federal detention centers. And so you had entire families, entire communities who lost the heads of their families, for the duration of the war, and they were sent here to where all the land had been cleared. So all of the, you know, the grass and the beautiful sort of, shrubbery that you see here today, that we've had the honor of hearing Greg talk about the different kinds of medicine that come from this land. All of that is razed out, and so it's just dust and pretty much nothing but dust. And military barracks are set up for over a thousand people who now are living here permanently for the duration of World War two.

Mariko Rooks:

And that site is, again, pretty close to here, but I don't you know, you don't have the place to put our people without the sort of the genocide of the settler colonial genocide of Native Americans first. And something that I mention a lot and I think is really important to note in this context is that a lot of the people who are running the war relocation authority, which is the department that's in charge of forcing all of these Japanese Americans onto these prison camps, are taken directly from the Bureau of Indian Affairs. So they're the same people who have been managing all of the eviction and genocide of Native Americans, they say copy paste, to our people, and there are actually a couple of camps where they're taking Japanese labor and using it to build reservations for different native Americans. In Not in Colorado, but in Arizona, I believe, and some of the other camps. Someone will have to fact check me in post.

Mariko Rooks:

But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are multiple reservations where Japanese Americans go in and build all the they do all the labor to build the infrastructure. They're paid prison wages to build reservations for Native Americans.

Mariko Rooks:

They're paid to create irrigation systems where there is no water and where the federal government is struggling to bring life to the land. And they build these, and then right after World War two is when different tribes are moved in. So we actually do have camps that are on tribal land for that reason. And even in places like Colorado where that doesn't end up happening, there are just so many different links through these different federal government infrastructures and these ideologies of displacement and of containment that connect our two peoples through these sites of incarceration.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Mhmm. See,

Ray:

we had the St. Crook massacre in 1864. Eighty years later, some odd, almost eighty years later, Japanese families are incarcerated nearby in the same in the same Southeastern pocket of Colorado. And then about eighty years after that, your two descendant communities start to get together and collaborate. Can you tell us about that?

Ray:

This is the third story that you were describing.

Greg Spottedbird:

Well, you know, that's a very, very interesting story. You know? We started to visit the site, and, you know, I met Mitch and Derek, you know, from the Amache. They're

Mariko Rooks:

Mitch is the president of the Amache Alliance, which is a group of community stakeholders. It's a nonprofit group and is primarily led by descendants of survivors of the camp. Derek is also on the board, and they've been really great in getting this program started.

Greg Spottedbird:

Yeah. And, you know, they they kinda heard me speak. And I was told I I I speak really I have a powerful voice, and I'm not really sure how true that is. But they heard me speak at some point. And we started to talk, and and and actually some of our our board members actually started to visit the Grenada site.

Greg Spottedbird:

One of them actually, mister Hamilton, found out that his his family tree connects with Grenada, the the Amache site. So they were talking about three years ago, and and our our students started to kind of look into a mirror almost. Like, hey. This this was done to us too. So it was like looking into a mirror with their trauma and their, you know, the way they they saw things.

Greg Spottedbird:

You know? And they said, well, why don't we get together and form a group? You know? The Amache Alliance and and the the Sand Creek massacre students, and they they they formed an an ambassador, you know, the youth ambassador program, which we have now, and we're going on our second year? Yes.

Greg Spottedbird:

Second year. And so telling the stories and and knowing how much the government wanted to erase this these things in history, what can we do about that? You know? And, of course, here at the Sand Creek Massacre, we fight all the time to get our voices out, to get those stories out. And, you know, my involvement in this in this organization came from me opening my mouth and speaking out against people telling our stories, you know, and I was almost almost advocating against, you know, why are you telling our stories?

Greg Spottedbird:

Why are you out there telling our stories when you got people like myself, Rosalie Talbull, all these elders, Karen Littlekoye. I could go on for a a long time listing all these elders who have stories of their own to tell about the Sand Creek massacre. Then we find out they have stories. And this year, we brought some elders out, and one of them was Mabel Morimoto. Mhmm.

Mariko Rooks:

Shinihara, who's a grandmother of one of our ambassadors.

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes. And she was a prisoner when she was two years old at the camp. So she was a survivor that actually got to to be with us this entire weekend and and tell her stories and sit in our teepee with us at the the events that we have. We had two programs over there, and then, of course, today here at the Sand Creek Massacre. So all these years later, we come together, and we're, like, we're finding out more and more about what they try to take from our people, the culture, the stripping of our religion, our spirituality, our way of praying, the the way we look, the way we dress, the way we ate food even, to come into know the stories over there at the Mhmm.

Greg Spottedbird:

Amache site, they took everything from them. And just like us, you know, save the man, you have to kill the Indian. You know? And that's that's just not a way we wanna remember those people. So we're we're working really hard to to bring back those stories.

Greg Spottedbird:

We're we're diving really deep into the the elder stories and the stories that we were were were trying to find them and locate. We're hunting down all these stories that were were meant to be told. And our youth are doing something, you know, about it, and they're gonna stand it. And we have to set examples as educators, as leaders. You know?

Greg Spottedbird:

I always say that, you know, certain things in history did let that happen, but the story is still here. And we're them, and we're trying to keep that alive. We're not gonna forget those people. The other day, it was really powerful for me when I stamped a book at the prison camp. Yeah.

Greg Spottedbird:

So I

Mariko Rooks:

can talk a little

Ray:

bit about that.

Greg Spottedbird:

So it was really powerful for me because just like us, we're not gonna forget our people. We're not gonna forget those people that went through those those times, you know. And so we do our best to to bring their voices out and tell our stories. So that was really something for me. So

Ray:

Can you clarify what that means, stay up the book?

Mariko Rooks:

Absolutely. So when we talk about sort of how did this program come to be, and the longer history of Japanese and Asian American activism, there have been a number of concentrated efforts by descendants at the national, and also at the local, and regional levels to recognize and to rectify what has what happened to our people. And so the most famous legally is the redress and reparations campaign that was executed throughout the nineteen seventies. The government tried to deny that the concentration camps existed, and when and our elders didn't talk about it. Right?

Mariko Rooks:

It was its source of deep shame. It fractured a lot of our families. It really destroyed our

Bryan Dewsbury:

In one way.

Mariko Rooks:

So I think a big one is that the Issei or the first generation were not allowed to become US citizens. So their children the the Nisei are citizens. And so when they get into camp, the Nisei the Issei are not allowed to work. They're not allowed to hold any roles of respect or importance, and they're also families are being split up. Everyone's eating in communal dining halls.

Mariko Rooks:

There's no privacy. So there's a lot of, community building, but there's also a lot of destruction of family family structure. And the Nisei, some of whom are children at the time, they either don't know how to articulate what's happening or they don't wanna talk about it again. It's so shameful to lose everything, to sort of experience that level of social death. And, of course, some people also don't survive the camps, right, for a number of different reasons.

Mariko Rooks:

Health conditions are extremely, extremely poor. Everyone is malnourished. Everyone has a lot of respiratory issues from all the dust that's being kicked up, and there's no good health care. And so when they come out of the camps, right, there's this huge pressure to survive. Some of it is also to assimilate, to deny or to suppress Japanese ness in order to stay safe when they're coming back to these communities where people are chasing them out with guns and, you know, graffitiing and destroying their houses and property when people refuse to give their homes back to them.

Mariko Rooks:

And so as the as the next generation, the sansai, get older, they're sort of saying, you know, what happened to our parents? What what is this? What is this trauma that we hold? And they start getting loud. And so reparations is a legal reparations is a big part of that.

Mariko Rooks:

And it's it's been a huge role of ours and an understanding of ours that engaging with other communities, including indigenous communities and also the descendants of black enslaved folks to advocate for reparations is something that we must do as Japanese Americans for many different reasons. But there are also a number of different commemorative projects that have come out of wanting to understand and to hold space and to never forget the people who were incarcerated. And so this is a long intro to this book. But one of the really

Bryan Dewsbury:

It's a book.

Mariko Rooks:

So It's a book. So one of the most important projects that's come out of this is the, and means to console the souls of the dead. And this is a book of every single person who was incarcerated during World War two, and there are over a 120,000 names that are in this book. Wow. And it's organized in order of age.

Mariko Rooks:

So you have the oldest people first and the youngest people who were born right before camp closed in the back. There are two huge volumes. And in each cover of the book, there is a ceramic plate that's actually made by the parent of one of our youth ambassadors Mhmm. That holds sand and soil from each of the camps Wow. And each of the relocation centers.

Mariko Rooks:

And so that was sort of formed into part of the cover of this book. And so there has been a couple years long project now where if you are someone whose family was in camp or if you were in camp, you can actually go and stamp their name in the book. And if you come to visit the book, it was on display for a quite a while at the museum in California, the Japanese American National Museum. It's now going on tour to all the different camps. You can also take part in that stamping process, and so our group was able to do that on Friday.

Mariko Rooks:

And so, we had folks in our group who were able to stamp their relatives and then also folks stamp the names of people who maybe don't have relatives to stamp for them or their relatives may not know that this book exists. And so that is one of the really important acts of remembrance that has been engaged in in these last few years. And all credit to reverend Duncan Duquen Williams, who is a really impressive scholar and Buddhist sensei, who has really, marshaled this work forward. And so it's was such serendipitous coincidence that he happened to be here this particular weekend at this particular pilgrimage when our group was also sort of set up and and and ready to go. And so, I think it was a really meaningful experience for everyone involved.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah. I'm glad to give all that background. I think I think everything was

Mariko Rooks:

necessary to Without that, we don't even have our program. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah. Because

Mariko Rooks:

there's so much work

Bryan Dewsbury:

that we've stamping on the book story oh, sorry. Process Mhmm. Very understandable. Mhmm. You You wanted to ask a follow-up?

Bryan Dewsbury:

I

Ray:

wanted to go back to something that Greg When you were talking about how you entered this collaboration, this educational collaboration, you said that you found that people were telling the story incorrectly. And I think you were implying that it was people outside of your community that were telling the story.

Bryan Dewsbury:

That's what I told.

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah. I was hoping you

Ray:

could elaborate on on what you meant by that and then, like, what it means to

Greg Spottedbird:

Okay. Yeah. For so long. And and, you know, I I spoke with Eric during the time they spent with our youth. I believe it was yesterday.

Greg Spottedbird:

Mhmm. They had a they had a session with the National Park Service. And, you know, some of the stories are are not what we were told by our elders and you know?

Ray:

Like the official national park

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes. Narrative. So some of the the ranger stories that are told to the public so for example, Ouachita massacre site in Oklahoma. They tried to cushion the stories about the massacre there, almost justifying what happened to my students. And we had a camp there, and it was it was just it fell into place because I was like, wait a minute.

Greg Spottedbird:

He's like, why are they saying things like this? You know? I said, well, let them talk. So we spent the day with the rangers, and they did their and then that evening, we we we brought in our elders, and they told that story. So I said, do you see, you know, why it's important for us to get involved, for you guys to get an education and follow, you know, what we're trying to do and get in get into the system.

Greg Spottedbird:

You know, National Park Service, they they need our people in there, you know. So a lot of the stories that we hear aren't the stories that and and they again, it's it's that getting offended by, hey, you're telling my story. You're telling my grandmother's story. You know? How do you know about her?

Greg Spottedbird:

How do you know about this? How can you really feel what it means to be a descendant of something that happened, like, where we're at where we're right now, the Sand Creek massacre. You have no idea what that feels like. So again, I got involved by merely opening my mouth and speaking up like, you're not gonna tell my story anymore. I'm gonna tell a story.

Greg Spottedbird:

I'm gonna go find you someone who's gonna tell you a story about this too, that's related to it. You know? So it makes it more meaningful because, again, when I ask some people, where did you hear that? Oh, I heard it when I was in college. You know?

Greg Spottedbird:

I took a class over it. I read this certain book. You know? And my stories weren't from that. My stories were at like, almost say, it was at our dinner table with my grandmother sitting right there crying as she told the stories.

Greg Spottedbird:

It was at our campfires, you know, with old men and old ladies sitting there telling us stories, and you could see them cry when they would talk about the children that were massacred, the women that were massacred, the way they slept with their moccasins on for the rest of their lives because they were scared of being attacked in the middle of the night. They never slept in comfort. They slept with their clothes on because of the fear of being attacked, and to see their tears and their emotions. And then my grandfather being a dog soldier and and being of of the warrior camp, descendants of that camp, seeing his anger about the decisions that were made here by our own people, you know, that made me wanna get involved. It made me proud of who I was, you know.

Greg Spottedbird:

And then the more and more I I got involved here, and I was like, wait a minute. We need to tell those stories. You guys don't need to be telling our stories, You know? And there's people out there who can tell them stories. You guys need to just go out and find them or let me do it.

Greg Spottedbird:

And and I got involved, and they was like, well, why don't you come out here and be, you know, a part of this program? And then I ended up being a just on an advisory board, then I became a board of directors member. You know? So I was I was trying my hardest, and now, you know, it's up to, like, a well, we're trying to to bring people in like the youth ambassadors who can carry on that, you know, and and get involved with the National Park Service at that level, you know, because there's only so much you can do being someone like me, you know, but if I was to be involved in the National Park Service, to be a ranger, maybe one of our tribal members could be telling the stories on these tours that we're having here today.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Know? Yeah.

Mariko Rooks:

Because I think one thing to name is that because there is such a history of displacement at these sites, it takes so much to get out here. And so even though I was able to be involved growing up in a number of different initiatives about Japanese American incarceration, you'd only go to the camp that was the closest to you in California. And so I wasn't out here until even though I knew this is where we were, I knew very little about this site or its particular history until maybe 2018. And it took my parents taking us on a cross country road trip from Connecticut to California to be able to pass through here. Even though I have family in Kansas, even though I've been in this region, my uncle lived in Denver for many years, like, that's how hard it is to get out here.

Mariko Rooks:

And it has made such a difference to have infrastructure that's built into this program that allows you to come out here, for free, right, that has funding, that allows for students to get to these places, that has a van that can drive them, that has someone who can guide them into this, that brings our elders out too because this is not, just a program for youth. We have survivors. Right? We have our grandmas who are here too. And so being able to do that kind of work is really critical in order to make sure that the folks who are most affected by this place have access to it because I do think there are a lot of stakeholders in the National Park Service.

Mariko Rooks:

What's been huge for us at Amache has been the local high school in the local community that really care about these sites, that really want to honor them. But you can't do that without continuously engaging and centering the community. That is the reason these sites exist in the first place. And so I think there's been a lot of progress that's been made. And I think that the National Park Service has done a better job of starting to integrate that, but just really important to acknowledge, right, that there are so many different systemic barriers that are in place that need to be broken in order for anyone who is a survivor to be connected physically to this place.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I wanna get back a little bit to the the education program where you have well, I guess it's youth ambassadors. Right? So I I wanna specifically get at the descendants of the concentration camp, descendants of the massacre talking to each other. Because a big a big theme of this podcast is talking to people who do really transformative, impactful educational experiences that are not necessarily bounded by a college classroom or a k 12 classroom. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury:

Education happens every way. And what I'm getting from you, there is something special. There's something specific that happens in that interaction between the two groups of descendants. I would love for you all to either of you to maybe talk me to talk us through what I I I don't wanna use the term special, it sounds kinda corny, but but but whatever magic happens in sharing that traumatic history and the new learnings that come out of that interaction.

Greg Spottedbird:

Alright. Yeah. Well, on our part, it was it was the run that started many, many years ago. Uh-huh. So we started to to to kind of gather our students up.

Greg Spottedbird:

And and, of course, everybody wants to get out of school or something like that. But we started to do it during the the Thanksgiving break. And as and, you know, perfectly in line, it it goes into Thanksgiving break. And and, unfortunately, the massacre happened on November 29. So we would gather our students, and and there would be so many that wanted to come, so we but we'd have them write an essay, and and we would we would gather our students that way.

Greg Spottedbird:

So years and years, like, I I was talking this today to the crowd, I was like, I've seen so many students grow up in this program, in our culture program. It used to be the cultural heritage program, the Cheyenne Arapaho tribes. And, of course, the Northern Cheyenne had their own programs in their schools up there. So that's how we we started to gather these students. You know?

Greg Spottedbird:

And, you know, we had so many students to to grow up in our program that that phased out of school, but continued to be involved. And we got one sitting right next to me. And and they they became chaperones and educators on our runs. You know? So it's discontinued.

Greg Spottedbird:

And finally, we found the the Amache Alliance, and they had their own group of students.

Bryan Dewsbury:

About the run. I don't think we I don't think we covered what you run specifically.

Greg Spottedbird:

So along with the story, and then it's very, very macabre. You know? It's like the things that happened right outside here, the the butchering, and it goes along with that. They they cut the fetuses out of the mothers, you know, and they cut the the the female organs out and wrapped around their hats. They cut the chief's head off, you know, all those things that go along with that story.

Greg Spottedbird:

And the troops, after they were done, they they went back to Denver, and they tied these trophies onto their they tried tied fetuses on their saddle horns and and and the scalps and the body parts and the skins and the bones and the they took it all back to Denver and that route they took to Denver. When they got back to Denver, they had a parade for those troops that came through, and they cheered for the troops, and they all got medals of honor. So a few of the the Cheyenne and Arapaho people just started to follow that path as close as they could get to to cleanse the blood from our our relatives that were taken back to Denver, and it became something bigger. So people started to come and join them, and then it grew from there, and they started to run. And then we formed an actual run from runners and and and and members of track teams in our tribal communities that came out, and they actually ran in honor of the people that had to run out of their teepees and their lodges here at the attack.

Greg Spottedbird:

So we follow that. So we're starting from here at Lookout Hill where Silas Sole held his his men back, and they run out from here and they follow the the trail almost 240 odd miles to to Denver. Just close as we can get to the actual route that the troops went back to Denver. So that's what the healing run was, and we do that as a a sense of healing. And if you if you were able to witness what happened today, you know that the the healing is far from complete.

Greg Spottedbird:

The tears fell today. The the students cried as they talked to the to the crowd today. You know? And it just goes to prove that we're far from being healed completely. You know?

Greg Spottedbird:

And so we do this pretty much every year. We're we're trying to get it back to where it used to be pre COVID. You know? But we're just now starting. This year was our first run, and our first run, we had the Amache students with us.

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah. So to maybe break down our programming that we've done over the past year, there's the healing run-in the fall, and then there's the pilgrimage in the spring. And so this is the fiftieth total year of the Amache pilgrimage, which started when descendants just went back to clean up the cemetery. And a lot of the different camps have pilgrimages where you can go as a descendant and and learn, you know, this is the barrack where my family stayed. Right?

Mariko Rooks:

Here's records or archival evidence we have of your family. Here's a way to bond with your family members, right, about this experience. And so our first program was that. So that's where all of our youth ambassadors met last year. And it was we did a lot of time where they sort of got to know each other, learned about different family histories.

Mariko Rooks:

We had a pretty wide range. Youngest is 13, oldest is graduating college. And then there were folks like us who are community educators that were sort of brought in. I'm a little unusual because I'm on the younger side of the educator spectrum. So I think this is also a

Bryan Dewsbury:

really badass.

Mariko Rooks:

Growing moment for me to learn, like, oh, it's time to like, your whole life, you've been told, like, you know, it's time to step up. Right? It's time to and you are the next generation. I was like, oh, I am now Yeah. Okay.

Mariko Rooks:

Now I have to do it. Right? And I think some of the activities that I would name that felt really powerful were dancing together, so sharing each other's different cultural and dance traditions. We both have dances that commemorate and honor our ancestors, our elders, and our legacies, and they're actually pretty similar. They're circle dances.

Mariko Rooks:

The beats are similar. Some of the drumming is really similar. And as we just started talking and participating in these different activities, you really do, I think, bear a really deep part of yourself when you have to show other people, right, this is where my family was, this is what I don't know about my history, this is what I do. And then for other people to reflect that back to you and say, you know, our story is different, our relationship to this land is different, but this is also what happened to us. I think really building that relational community structure, and then, of course, you're together all day in the hot sun, so you really you really get to know each other super well.

Mariko Rooks:

And then I think a really game changing experience for the youth was then they learned how to put up a tipi, and you do it all by hand. There are these giant 18 foot tall poles, and you have to work together as a team to put it up. There are a lot of specific rules that I've definitely learned about how to do this correctly. And so they put up the tipi here, and then, we're able to go inside and start really talking and sharing stories. And I think that space is so powerful for this program.

Mariko Rooks:

There's always a lot of crying. There's always a lot of ceremony, and there's always a lot of intentional both intention setting. We'll name at the beginning of the program, like, what are you thinking about? What are you bringing into this space? And then when we leave, right, what have we learned?

Mariko Rooks:

What are we reflecting on? And so we do that, and then they did that their first round last May. We then went on the healing run, and nothing will bond you like running 35 miles across Colorado in three days. There's hail. There's there's a there's rain.

Mariko Rooks:

There you're all in this van, and you're on these farm roads, these dirt roads in the middle of nowhere just with these people and just doing these sort of acts of remembering and healing to get to be in ceremony to understand we wake up at this time. Right? These are the rituals that we do in the morning. These are the rituals we do in the evening. Getting to meet other Cheyenne and Cheyenne youth who were from these different places in Oklahoma and Montana, so that's the program Greg was talking about, right, the broader tribal program.

Mariko Rooks:

I think that was really meaningful, and during that time, our group loves to create cranes. And you grant a thousand cranes to someone if you or you make a thousand paper cranes out of, origami, which is Japanese folded paper. It used to be, like, superstition was to grant a wish, but after, one girl who was a survivor of the atomic bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki made a thousand cranes while she suffered from leukemia that was induced by the bombs. She made a thousand cranes as a teenager in hopes of promoting peace, and she passed away. And so since then, it's now a sort of memorial act and a solidarity act that we will engage in.

Mariko Rooks:

So there are celebration acts of a thousand cranes. You'll make them for someone's wedding to wish them good luck, but there are also the thousand cranes that we will send to border and detention camps along The US border that we will lay at these different pilgrimage sites when we come back that our our students and our youth will make. And on this healing run, our program made a thousand cranes that we ran with. So we were running with some of the cranes, and then that were presented to the tribal elders at the end of this to say, like, you know, this is what we did, right, during this process. This is how our community is gonna honor and remember you.

Mariko Rooks:

And also presenting those cranes to Silas Sul Silas Saul's descendants, leaving them at his gravestone. So I think it's those kinds of embodied acts, right, that are both calling from these deep traditions of cultural practices, but also sharing them and making them our own, right, in this moment or in these sort of, spaces. And doing so respectfully, doing so with a lot of dialogue, with a lot of learning, we were able to hold a Buddhist memorial service inside the teepee this year, and I think that's the first time

Greg Spottedbird:

That's amazing.

Mariko Rooks:

Anyone's ever said that sentence. Right? But even that has been a process of, right, me going into the tipi and, you know, being raised very, very Buddhist and seeing, like, okay. This is these are the rituals y'all have. What's similar here?

Mariko Rooks:

What's different? And then asking a lot of questions and being like, so am I allowed to do this? Can we bring in this? Is this okay? Is this not okay?

Mariko Rooks:

Right? And why? Right? And so learning more about that and learning more about that culture. And then, you know, I think the same thing on on our end and pulling those things together to to start to create these new these new community building rituals and these new learning experiences that connect both.

Mariko Rooks:

So I think you're both building curriculum, but you're also building culture and you're building meaning as that's happening. And I think our youth drive a lot of that process. Right? We can put them in the TV, but we can't make them talk. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury:

Make them talk.

Ray:

But they do talk.

Mariko Rooks:

But they do.

Greg Spottedbird:

They do.

Bryan Dewsbury:

They do.

Mariko Rooks:

They so engaged. They are fantastic members of their community, and I think it's getting this kind of singular experience that makes that happen. I don't think any of them take it for granted, and I think that they have all found or developed their sort of different callings or their ways that they want to engage with the community moving forward. And it's beautiful and wonderful to see kids who didn't speak. I think I'm Moe.

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah. Did not speak a single word for, you know, last year at this event, but are giving speeches to crowds of hundreds now. Right. Right? They're

Bryan Dewsbury:

very short a voice almost.

Mariko Rooks:

Exactly. And then so many of them have been practicing traditional art forms. And so to be able to link those art forms to these processes of remembering really deliberately across cultures is really exciting. So that's I think my team is building out a lot of that for the next year.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Right.

Mariko Rooks:

Or even things like, Soomachi is actually the Japanese sort of fudge, name of of a Cheyenne woman who Greg can maybe tell you more about. But figuring out the correct pronunciation of that name and then assigning it meaningful Japanese characters is a project that we'll be working on this year because we do have the characters that represent the camp, which are sort of based on the the pictograms for town in Japanese. But how do we do that in a way that is correctly pronouncing and honoring, right, the name of this woman who probably no one knew her the how to pronounce her name their name when she when they landed here, but they said, well, this we can pronounce in Japanese, and we can't name it Grenada because the post office already named that. So right? So doing those kinds of experiences or starting to develop those for ourselves is saying, like, right, we wanna we wanna make sure this is pronounced correctly, but we also acknowledge, right, that Japanese people were here too.

Mariko Rooks:

Right? That kind of thing.

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes. Mhmm.

Ray:

I was hoping to talk a little bit about the educational meaning or just the significance of being able to do these programs on-site. A while ago, you were talking about this is a legacy of displacement. This is the result of all of these experiences of your communities, that your communities are no longer in this space.

Bryan Dewsbury:

So I was hoping

Ray:

you could talk a little bit more about why that's such a meaningful program to come back here and to witness the Amache community witnessing the Sand Creek space and the Sand Creek community witnessing the Amache space.

Mariko Rooks:

I would say on my end, I think number one, physically, you can really feel it, and you can't release it until you get to this space. There's an element of, whenever I drive out here at a certain point, I can feel my body start to tense and lock up. Or even when I fly, when I fly from the East Coast, I will, like, wake up in the middle of the flight when I pass by where around where this camp is located. And, you know, we know from sort of different research in in biology and in in physiology and in psychology that there is a deep and embodied aspect to the trauma that we experience here, and that is carried epigenetically and intergenerationally. And you know it when you get sick and you're not sure why.

Mariko Rooks:

You know it when you're stressed about things that people aren't stressed about. You see it in the habits, right, that our elders have developed and just the perpetual fear that they've lived in. And from what we know of their stories, we definitely understand why. And it wasn't until being able to be here, to be able to cry here, to be able to be in community on-site and say, like, oh, I get it now. This is where you were living.

Mariko Rooks:

This is what it felt feels like to breathe in the kind of dust that you had to breathe in. This is what it feels like to be so far from home, that you can't it you I think everyone has a different journey towards healing, but, fundamentally, this is something that can't be replicated, you know Right. In any other way. And then to be able to learn from the people who are the actual original inhabitants of this land. This is how you care for the land.

Mariko Rooks:

This is how you treat the land. This is how you heal with the land is knowledge that I think is really missing from our community because, of course, this is not our land. Right? And so I think for me, doing the run last year, I did personally, I think, a little over 13 miles. And to be able to run the path that, like, my ancestors were not allowed to run because they were not allowed to leave to run back to Denver, but to do it in a way that sort of honored the fact that, like, they weren't allowed to leave because people were forced to leave first, I think the changes that I could feel in my body and my emotional state, that have really carried on and that continue to carry on, throughout this programming, I think, feels really strong and really powerful.

Mariko Rooks:

And I just don't think you you get it until you're here. Right. And so I think that's felt really important to me, and that's and we're always in a process of constant discovery at Amache as well. There's fantastic archaeological teams that are able to connect, oh, this one story or this one photo we have with evidence on-site of, oh, this is the plant that was here. And so you can start to form these stories, you can start to develop, these these sort of deeper understandings, but you can't do it until you come back on-site, you're like, yeah.

Mariko Rooks:

Here's this one random photo we have, and they're like, oh, based on these foundations and this cactus and all this other stuff, like, you'll see this happen in real time. And so I think being able to do that and there are no distractions, there are no other places you can go, there's only, like, a sonic drive through. So you

Bryan Dewsbury:

And so therefore, there are no places you

Ray:

can go.

Mariko Rooks:

So therefore, there are no places you can go. You really have to sit here, and you really have to feel it, and you really have to move through it. There's there's no escape. And there's also, thankfully, for the most part, no one telling you, like, why are you doing this instead of something else? Like, why can't you just let it go?

Mariko Rooks:

What does it matter? You're successful outside of this. Yada yada yada. Right? And so I think, for me, least, that's what I felt.

Mariko Rooks:

And I felt, really grateful and honored to be a recipient of some of the knowledge that I think has really helped heal this land and our relationship to it.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Yeah. So I I know you all have to you've been generous with your time. I know both of you have things to be at. Yeah. So I wanna if if I if it's okay, I can ask you one more question, Greg.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I wanna start with you to get you all on here on on this one. You touched on on this sort of public facing component of this.

Greg Spottedbird:

I know

Bryan Dewsbury:

the program is a little new. Right? But I was really happy to hear about the acceptance of the curriculum to the six states. To me, that's kinda huge. I was happy to hear about the response of the park rangers when you pointed out, like Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Can you bring in natural elders to tell these stories? Tell us a little bit about what you think the rest of the country has to learn from this process and what you hope to see going forward. You know, if I if we came back and ran this podcast ten years from now, what is sort of the plan in the sky dream for this? And and and, you know, this is not me saying your goals have to be to educate every single citizen. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury:

But, you know, we we see the impact. We see why this is important. I'm sure you do too. I'm sure this is a conversation you've had internally, probably with each other. Tell us a little bit about what that conversation is like.

Greg Spottedbird:

That is huge for us right now. We do this because we have to tell the people in this country what this country was built on. And that's the genocide of my people. That's the trying to they tried to wipe everything clean. They they bulldozed where her ancestors were put.

Greg Spottedbird:

They don't want nobody to know what happened here and the truth about this country. And there's one person sitting in a seat right now who's trying to do his best to make sure that's gonna be accomplished here. But we're gonna make sure that never happens. And if we lose these stories, and if we if we don't have voices in ten years from now, our people are gonna perish. We're not gonna have any identity.

Greg Spottedbird:

We're not gonna be identified as Cheyenne people, Arapaho people. That has to be known, and and the teaching of the history, the true history has to be told. You know? This is indigenous land, and I said it today. You know?

Greg Spottedbird:

It's indigenous land. All you non tribal people out there, and to put it in a nice way, you're on indigenous land. And I will say everybody's welcome, but not everyone belongs here. And it's it's important for us to get those stories out. And for these these young you know, this younger generation to know the stories and to be passionate about them, to to be proud of their identity.

Greg Spottedbird:

So in ten years from now, they're gonna be here telling the story like we are. I may be gone by then. The elders are surely gonna be gone by then. And who's gonna tell the story? Who's gonna have that passion the way we talk and and and speak to crowds like we did today?

Greg Spottedbird:

They will hopefully have that passion. They'll hopefully have that pride inside of them to speak as we spoke today and to to to instill that knowledge into the people that come to visit this place. And they will take it home with them, and they'll know. And the curriculum, I hope to have every state have that in their classroom for ten

Bryan Dewsbury:

years from now.

Greg Spottedbird:

Yes. So that's our hopes, and that's what I what I I pray for in ten years from now that this this this alliance and our coalition will will will grow into something that, you know, we we can't imagine right now.

Mariko Rooks:

I think on our side, there is a fundamental obligation to building programs that are engaging with other communities that have suffered the same kinds of oppression and that have, that we can build solidarity with. And it is, like, incredibly important because the, quote, unquote, success, right, of Japanese Americans. And I say large quotes because number one, ignores a lot of folks who, you know, don't look shiny and pretty on the outside and who are still going through immense impacts of this experience on the inside. Number two, because, oh, economic mobility, oh, class mobility, really important, obviously, right, for surviving in the current society we live in, but are used and weaponized against indigenous people, against black people, against brown people to say like, oh, well, Japanese Americans went through this and, you know, look at them. They're so successful.

Mariko Rooks:

Right? Why can't other groups do this? And that which we call the model minority narrative, and it's one of the most damning and harmful narratives, one to our own community because it does not heal us. Right? It only hides the deep and long lasting impacts of what we've been through and what we continue to go through.

Mariko Rooks:

Right? As as people of color in America. And number two, in doing so, further oppresses every other group, right, who didn't get the chance to go to college using the GI Bill after being forced into the military, right, who didn't get the chance to buy our own property. When we hear the stories from Cheyenne folks who are saying like, yeah, you know, certain levers of oppression that, like, we were able to assimilate out of and they weren't. Right?

Mariko Rooks:

It is it is our job and our responsibility to not be pulled into this deeply harmful fantasy of what it means to move past or move on. Right? And I think what this program shows us is that it takes time. It takes time, and it takes energy, and it takes dedication to move through instead, and that you cannot do it alone. Right?

Mariko Rooks:

And that every single one of our cultures that they've tried to destroy, we have all kept something. We have all fought for part of that culture's survival. And by putting those pieces that we have in conversation with each other, that's how we can become more whole. Right? That's how we can heal ourselves.

Mariko Rooks:

That's how we can connect to other communities. That's how we can engage with, you know, sort of the oppression and with the discrimination that still continues to impact us today. And so I think when I think about this program in ten years, I think my hope is that the roots that we planted now lead to long lasting relationships and sustainable relationships with this land and these places, and that these relationships bring others in, right, throughout both of our communities as well. And so I think a question that Greg has asked a lot, particularly this last weekend, is, you know, how are you going to be a good ancestor? And so I hope that in ten years, some of our youth can have some more clear answers to that question because they've been getting to practice what that means through programs like this.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Gray, we're here because of you?

Ray:

We're here because of Gray and Marico. And

Bryan Dewsbury:

Well, I mean, you invited me here. So so that that was

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah. Yes. And thank you, Ray, for running with us with your camera and your mic. Yeah.

Ray:

Yeah. She

Mariko Rooks:

really earned our respect for that one. It

Ray:

was it was an honor and privilege to to cover this story for for NPR. It was one the most beautiful stories I think I've ever covered. And I thank you guys for letting me letting me have that privilege.

Bryan Dewsbury:

And thank you for letting me have them on the podcast. Greg, thank you so much.

Mariko Rooks:

Thank you, Brian.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I'll be back before ten years. I mean, I know the question was ten years, but

Mariko Rooks:

Yeah. You gotta come out of breath with us.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I will. You know, that that I wanna

Mariko Rooks:

do. Yes.

Bryan Dewsbury:

That I wanna do. Yes. Alright. Thanks so much. You're gonna cut.

Greg Spottedbird:

Thank you, guys.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Knowledge Unbound is brought to you by the Rios Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM Education. We are graciously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Special thanks to producers, Segeva Masai. He wasn't on camera on mic today, but he is here. Thanks to the cohost for today, Ray Solomon, nine one point five k u n c here in Colorado, kunc.org.

Bryan Dewsbury:

If you're not here, Ray, how was that episode for you?

Ray:

That was wonderful. It was so cool to come back and hear the final thoughts and sort of a little bit of a follow-up a year into this program that I've been reporting on for quite some time.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Well, I I was I was intrigued about the ten year question. Mhmm. Right? The last question. And I I do wanna come back and do the run.

Bryan Dewsbury:

That's actually a serious promise I made to them. But I'm also so interested in in how the lessons from what they're trying to do here can expand beyond the program itself. What are your what are your thoughts on that?

Ray:

Well, I think, you know, the program is called the youth ambassadors, is something that has always intrigued me. Mhmm. But the idea is is not just to educate the kids, the youth, they're not kids, they're youth, who come out here and get this programming firsthand, but they're supposed to be ambassadors to go out and share this with the community. I I think that's something about these stories, these particular stories that are so powerful. Greg was talking about when outsiders tell the stories, they misalive.

Bryan Dewsbury:

Right.

Ray:

They're not authentic. But when it's transmitted orally from the source to the source to the source, I think these kids become the next source going out to the world. And that's something I'm really excited to see what happens next the next part of the project is the kids do the youth. Not kids. Yeah.

Ray:

Know.

Mariko Rooks:

The youth.

Bryan Dewsbury:

I understand the temptation.

Ray:

I know. It is so tempting to just say kids. But especially at my age, everyone younger than me as a kid.

Bryan Dewsbury:

You know we are the same age.

Ray:

Right? I know. Yeah. So you know what it feels like. Right.

Ray:

But there the intention is to to do a project, a number of projects to transmit this to the next, you know, transmit this to a wider audience. Mhmm. So, I think Marika was talking about some folks are working on, like, a dance project. Mhmm. I was talking to one of one of the coordinators about an interest in making podcast project that I would be so so honored to support and help them with that.

Ray:

Yeah.

Bryan Dewsbury:

You know, hearing them talk about what they're doing with the youth is is is like it they're teaching them to reflect and they're teaching them the value that reflection brings to their own understanding of themselves. Right? I just wanna take this time to thank all the listeners to this wonderful podcast, the last 10 episodes of season two. Thank all the guests who took time to to talk to us. Thank you, Ray, for joining us on this last episode.

Bryan Dewsbury:

And I and I do believe that this interview was the episode to leave this season on in that the power of reflection, the power of memory, and the power of talking to each other is something that we so desperately need right now in this country. That I hope you take this into your classroom, into your profession, into your summer, into your next academic year. I love you. Thank you for tuning in. Be excellent to each other.

Greg Spottedbird:

If we lose these stories and if we if we don't have voices in ten years from now, our people are gonna perish. We're not gonna have any identity. We're not gonna be identified as Cheyenne people, Arapaho people. That has to be known, and and the teaching of the history, the true history has to be told, you know. This is indigenous land, and I said it today, know, it's indigenous land.

Greg Spottedbird:

All you non tribal people out there, and put to put in a nice way, you're on indigenous land. And I will say everybody's welcome, but not everyone belongs here.

Mariko Rooks:

There is a deep and embodied aspect to the trauma that we experience here, and that is carried epigenetically and intergenerationally. You know it when you get sick and you're not sure why, you know it when you're stressed about things that people aren't stressed about. You see it in the habits, right, that our elders have developed Yes. And the and just the perpetual fear that they've lived in. And from what we know of their stories, we definitely understand why.

Mariko Rooks:

And it and it wasn't until being able to be here, to be able to cry here, to be able to be in community on-site and say, like, oh, I get it now. This is where you were living. This is what it felt feels like to breathe in the kind of dust that you had to breathe in. This is what it feels like to be so far from home. I think everyone has a different journey towards healing, but fundamentally, this is something that can't be replicated, you know, in any other way.

Mariko Rooks:

And then to be able to learn from the people who are the actual original inhabitants of this land. This is how you care for the land. This is how you treat the land. This is how you heal with the land is knowledge that I think is really missing from our community because, of course, this is not our land. Right?