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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:15)
Hello, welcome back to Yes and Otherwise. today we're joined by Dr. Sarah Webb, who is the author of Colorism and is also the founder of Colorism Healing, which is a global platform providing education, resource, and events to address color.
Thank you for being here, Dr. Well.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (00:34)
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to get to chat.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:37)
I was gonna kick things off with just a sort of fun question. And
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (00:40)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:41)
this came up because yesterday I just got a pair of pants that I ordered from Australia. So as you can guess, they were wildly expensive due to shipping. I was influenced by someone I saw on
threads or somewhere who posted these really colorful pants. And I don't spend this kind of money on pants. It was like $200 and something dollars, which for me is outrageous. I'm a thrift store shopper. I don't know what got
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:02)
Gotcha.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:03)
in me, but I was like, they're so cute. And I tried them on last night. I like them so much I ordered two more pairs of pants. Like that is not something to do. But
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:08)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:10)
I love them. And I think I was reflecting last night I was like, you know what?
was just something nice for me. And I don't do that enough.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:16)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:17)
So it got me thinking about what was the last time you did something that was just for you, that maybe was outrageously expensive or felt incredibly
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:24)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:25)
decadent, but was something that was just for you.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:27)
this is a good question. I'll stick to the theme of clothing.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:32)
Okay.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:33)
I have I I I love clothing. I love fashion. I wouldn't say I'm a big shopper. I probably would be if, you know, I had unlimited disposable income.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:42)
Right.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (01:43)
but I love, you know, like I watch Project Runway and I just like personal style. And I
Years ago when I was a full-time professor in in the Midwest, I really got into blazers. Like I love a blazer and I love like a woman's suit, right? But I've I've did the blazer thing with jeans. But I as much as I love blazers and suits, I never had a full suit. And as a tall person, I'm five ten. When I go to a regular department store, they never have the pant length or the sleeve length.
readily available in the store. Sometimes like, we can order it in, but then I don't want to order it because I want to try it on that day. Right. And so I found this woman owned suiting company, whether they do other types of clothing as well, but they specialize in suits, woman-owned, woman designed, for tall women especially. So the founder is a tall woman. and I was like, I'm gonna buy me a a full suit. So not just the blazer, but the top and the pant. And it was I had sticker shock as well, but I was like, it's
high quality suit, supporting a woman-owned brand, supporting women designers, and just really treating myself to that and gifting myself for that. And I had a photo shoot coming up too. So I was like, this is a good investment. It's I know I'm gonna wear suits over and over again. so yeah, I'm all for like, you know, if that's something really meaningful, then you can let yourself have it.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:59)
Yes, I love that. Was it custom made? Because those are wildly expensive. Okay.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (03:02)
It wasn't I know no, it wasn't custom made.
I had priced a custom made suit also by a woman business owner and founder, and that was gonna be four thousand dollars, Becky. And I
Becky Mollenkamp (03:12)
Mm.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (03:13)
was like, love your suits, not in my budget. Yes, yes, beautiful. yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:16)
Right. And I'm sure every bit earned, right? But also when you're used to not paying anything near that, it's like the sticker shock is very real. So yeah, and these pants
that I got were organic and and a it's an ethical kind of company and all of that. Although I don't
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (03:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:30)
know that ordering it from Australia, the carbon footprint there may not have been as ethical. But anyway, good. I love that. I love the idea of like we get to treat ourselves because we don't I don't think we do it enough. And just it's interesting, the mental gymnastics
we sometimes have to do to even get there where it's like, well, I need to justify this. I can wear it for a photo shoot or I can Yeah,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (03:46)
Yep. You see? You see?
Becky Mollenkamp (03:49)
exactly. Where we should be able like, I would love to see us all get to the place where we're like, you know what? I get it because I want it. I deserve it. It makes me happy and my joy is worth it. So thank you for sharing that.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (03:55)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:00)
Okay. So I thought maybe you could just kick us off by maybe telling us your earliest childhood memory.
of understanding without having the language for it yet, of understanding that colorism is a thing, that you
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (04:13)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:14)
started to sense that. Like how early in your existence did you start to notice there were differences in how folks were treated based on the shade of their skin tone?
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (04:24)
So apparently I noticed it be I was noticing it before I have conscious memory of it, the question is interesting because when you ask like, what's my earliest memory? the what in conversations with my mom, I realized that even before I remember, I was aware of colorism, right? So she remembers me making comments about how people responded to me differently than my lighter skinned sister.
usually around beauty, especially for like young girls growing up. You know, I know once we become adults, we also deal with things like the justice system in the workplace. But usually for kids, it's about beauty or about behavior, Or like you're the bad child or the beautiful child. So I was noticing some of that. Hey, babe. and I think because I lived in a household with an older sister who was a different skin tone than me, I started seeing it early.
You know, some people, if everyone in their household is around the same complexion, they might not witness it or observe it as early, but I know for sure that my relationship to my sister had a lot to do with why I recognized it and noticed it not only early, but throughout our lives. but I do remember, you know, seeing like playing with cousins and like being on you know, school playgrounds, being in daycare centers.
How, you know, there was this one particular moment where I was friends with a young white woman, young white girl, and we got into a little tiff, a little argument. And so, you know, you you try to hurt each other's feelings when you're fighting as six-year-old children. So her way of hurting my feelings was to go and cuddle up next to my sister and say, Well, that's why I like your sister better than you, because she's white and you're black,
And so in my book, I talk about how, okay, well, she was wrong about how race works in the United States. But what that illustrates is that she clearly noticed the difference in our skin tones. And the meaning she attributed to that was that my sister was more valuable, more worthy, more likable because she had lighter skin tones. So yeah, seeing it as early as, you know, first grade, kindergarten, and probably even earlier than that.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:23)
it really speaks to that notion that I think can happen of of white folks, well meaning, I think, white folks, sort of trying to teach their children we don't see race sort of mentality. And and or sometimes avoiding these discussions around a race, thinking that it's, I don't know what.
to mature a concept for them and waiting until much until they're much older. And here you are saying by first grade, I mean we're talking five, six, seven year olds who are very much understanding that people look different. In the same way they're understanding some of the kids are
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (06:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:55)
taller, some are shorter, some are wider, some are not, some, you know, they're noticing this as well. And so these discussions matter at a really young age. And do you find in all of the work that you've been doing around this that that is
that people are not only not discussing race with young children, and I mean here white folks, and but especially probably even around colorism and differences in tone or shade. Is that something that's just not happening at a young age? And should be?
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (07:24)
Yes.
Yes and yes. It's yes, it's not happening and yes, it should be happening. so you can imagine, white folks aren't talking about race at a young age. They're definitely not talking about color at a young age. And when we think about the phrase, I don't see color, that can be taken or we might assume that they want to take that literally, right? Like we're all just the same. But even in households of color,
we're not talking about colorism specifically. So there is a deficit there in terms of the the work that black p black and brown parents put into building their child's racial awareness is often lacking in terms of building their awareness around skin tone differences among people of the same race or the same ethnicity. And I think that that leaves a darker skin child, really children of any skin tone, it leaves us without the tools.
without the language to process and understand phenomena and experiences that are happening all around us. And so what we know is that for every black or brown child who experiences racism or observes or encounters racism or racial bias in some way, they're also going to be seeing, witnessing, if not directly experiencing themselves, forms of colorism throughout their lives. And so just like parents know to give their black and brown children language and frameworks for understanding
racial experiences or racist experiences, it's helpful to also give them language and frameworks to understand any experiences they might have when it comes to colorism.
Faith Clarke (08:48)
Yeah,
as I'm listening to you, Dr. Webb, part of I think back to my grandmother. I'm right now in Jamaica. I'm from Jamaica and I'm right now in Jamaica. And so colorism without it having labels, language, or even, you know, structures for talking about it is a part of life here. And now I will say it's about being proximate to whiteness. But my grandmother
Sa would say had said, I will never marry a white man. Why?
Cause I go and have I hope I'm going to go into Patword and I'll translate. I go and have picnic with all colour. And then the black one them now treat the white one them, right? And so her own statement was this recognition as she worked in households as a helper. She recognized that there were children with both same parents. And some were made into servant roles and some were not. That was her her take on the matter. She's not gonna do that to her kids.
And she's telling me this and I'm five. And my
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (09:45)
Mm, mm hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:47)
translation of that was, I want to marry a white man because I want to have kids in a lighter color than me so that I am bringing more children into the world who are not going to be mistreated.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (10:00)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (10:00)
So I
think that part of this is that regardless of language and structures, which I think we really should be talking about it, but I think it's just to note that we're all absorbing these realities around us, even when they're not framed for us. and so I I guess I wonder in in Black communities, Dr. Webb, how
even before like how do we help us acknowledge
the stories we are already know. we already know this stuff. not only is it is cut it's about color, but it's about, you know, we can't separate color from hair. So in my high
school it was pretty hair and light skin.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (10:38)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (10:39)
And so the ideas around all the things that make us proximate to white and what that means in terms of beauty and and therefore desirability and therefore power and privilege as it shows up in a playground. Like how do we even own our
own experiences with this,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (10:56)
Yeah,
so I begin the first chapter of the book with the the James Baldwin quote, quote, that we evolve a language in order to not be submerged by a reality that we cannot articulate. And if we cannot articulate it, then we are submerged. And so what you're saying is that we're all experiencing these things, we're all absorbing them, we're all immersed, we're all submerged in the reality of the colorism and the texturism and the featurism. But without
the articulation of what's happening, it goes unchecked and it l is allowed to fester and to become a deeper wound in in our psyches, And so the ability to say and name, this is what's happening, is what allows us to separate ourselves, to give ourselves enough distance to be let our analytical minds kick in, right? And so it's not just the the the limbic system. It's not just the survival mode. It's not just
conditioning and survival and subconscious programming, the act of telling the story of saying, This is what I experienced, and here's the larger context around it. And I think context helps too, because if you think, it's just this is just how it is in my community, Without understanding, okay, there's a history of violence and there's a history of repression. And it's not just
natural. It's not natural that the darker skinned members of the family are put into subservient roles. But there's a there's a there's there was a trajectory of how that came to be, then that's how we can create enough internal distance to to unloosen or to unwind ourselves from this kind of programming. And and on top of that, and to on top of the cognitive and intellectual
tool and resource that that gives us, it is also an emotional unburdening when you get to speak your story, right? So it's doing double duty. The act of telling your story helps to bring that intellectual cognitive awareness, but it's also doing a lot to heal somatically. And I know for myself as well as a lot of the the clients and the people I've worked with in workshops and just people who hear me doing a live stream on the internet, they're like, the catharsis. I feel I feel
feel so seen. I feel like I'm can unburden myself to have this conversation out loud. And so that is an important seed for a lot of people. You know, we say we can't heal wounds that we don't acknowledge. And a lot of why the wound of colorism has been allowed to fester is because it's been hidden in secret. Right. And so as soon as you expose it to fresh air and some alcohol and some, you know, some sutures and you are able to clean it and look into it.
then the healing process can start to begin. And it doesn't even have to be you telling your own story because some people aren't ready yet. Some people, their pain or their wounding might be too deep for them to articulate it. But hearing someone else, right? Hearing and seeing yourself in someone else's story who's opening up, just as you shared about growing up in Jamaica, someone is going to hear that and say, Yeah, my grandmother said something really similar. And it
it left a negative impact on me or it impacted me in XYZ ways. And so I think, even, you know, in your journal, whether it's with a close friend or if you just are able to listen to someone else's story, like being able to say, This is what happened to me and here's how I felt about it is a great starting point.
Faith Clarke (14:18)
Yeah. Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:19)
When did your own, because that piece of the unburdening or the the speaking of it and the the healing work, when and how did that get started for you? Was it from hearing someone else like you're talking about?
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (14:30)
Yes, absolutely. And this is why I'm such a advocate for people speaking up because you never know whose life might change. so the actor, producer, Bill Duke, Chanson D. Berry, they created a documentary called Dark Girls in 2011. It was released in 2011. And I found out about that documentary because another writer, you might have heard of him, Tanahasie Coates, wrote about that trailer. He posted the trailer for that documentary and he talked about
a bias he had as a kid and how his lighter skin mother corrected him on that bias and called him out on it essentially and said that we don't think like that. This is why that's wrong. And so it made him, you know, change and shift his attitude around skin tone. And so hearing him say that, knowing that this documentary was coming out, I literally was like, well if these people can talk about it, maybe it's safe for me to like s dip my toe into the water and start to talk about it as well.
and so I I definitely agree that when one person puts forth an act of bravery and courage, it does inspire other people to be courageous as well.
Faith Clarke (15:34)
What part of your own healing journey was was really difficult? Like what was something that was sticky even in the storytelling and in the you know unraveling of all the pieces?
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (15:48)
What was hard for me, I think what was hardest for me was the the fear of never knowing when colorism would happen again. it's a different type of healing that has to happen. Because if I were to heal from something that was an isolated incident or that, you know, happened in my childhood home, but I don't live in my childhood home anymore and I'm out of that environment.
It's a different healing process. But colorism is the kind of thing where at in any given space, on any given day, someone could perpetuate colorism against me. And so I, you know, for a long time, even though I was internally healing and working on myself and changing my own understanding and deprogramming, decolonizing myself, I lived with a lot of anxiety for a long time around.
going out into the world, being in social spaces, being in public spaces, and really anticipating that colorism would likely meet me there. And so having to, you know, find ways to exist and navigate in a public way out in society, out in community, knowing that there are colorless people here. There are people who are intentionally gonna discriminate against me, people who might unintentionally discriminate against me.
And how do I maintain my own center? How do I stay grounded and present enough that my internal state is not shaken or not derailed because of an external bias or point of discrimination? And for anyone who's experienced discrimination or hatred or bias, you know how difficult that is, right? but also because I am a teacher who educates people on this.
I also know that that centeredness and that groundedness empowers me to create change in those spaces, right? And so it's that was also additional motivation for me is to become someone who could hold my own center despite what's going on around me, because like I could be an opportunity for teaching or for education or for healing in these spaces where colorism might be happening. but I also think that.
without having started the work of teaching and advocating. I I honestly don't know if I would have ever gotten to that point. I ac I honestly don't know what my healing journey would have looked like if it hadn't gone through the path of raising awareness about it in a public way and educating people around the world about it. I feel like that was such a crucial part of my healing journey. And obviously not everyone's gonna become a public figure or, you know,
teach classes on it or post about it. and so healing of course looks different for everyone, but I'll acknowledge that doing work in relationship and in collaboration in a community with people can be a great source of healing if anyone is interested in going that route as well.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:40)
Which I'm assuming is what colorism healing your platform is about. Yeah. And Faith,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (18:43)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:44)
I'd love to turn it back on you, if you don't mind, to ask you that same question around like your own journey around colorism specifically and if there were if there's parts that have been sticky or if there's something you're still sort of exploring for yourself.
Faith Clarke (18:56)
I have found colorism harder to deal with in contexts like Jamaica where the shades feel like they really matter. not that they don't really matter in North America, they absolutely do, but
There's something about living in a majority black and brown people culture that now you're all zoomed in on what kind of black and what kind of brown. Who's who who's being black and who's, you know. And
And I went to a very elite high school and in spaces like those, it it matters a lot. And so I think number one, kind of helping myself to align with we're all in the same, we're all up Shits Creek. Like that was that was important to me, because in some ways this the zooming in and the shades.
was it it was a mind trick and it was it would it did a thing on my head. Is my father slightly lighter than my mother? That was th you know, those kinds of questions. Whereas I just kind of see in the common situation I in the move to the US, was a significant thing for me. And in recognizing the privilege that my friends who are lighter in color have.
some of the healing work is has been about how do I just own that and do aftercare like like you're saying Dr. Webb when you're in a public facing spaces I'm in a consultation spot and I'm with a group that's trying to be anti-racist and all kinds of stuff is showing up
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (20:31)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (20:31)
I, as a black-bodied woman, immigrant, like all of those things kind of come at me too while I'm trying to be in
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (20:41)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (20:41)
the space of educating and so on. And so there's been a ton of my own healing work on the more I teach on it, the more I recognize it in myself, the more I recognize it in spaces around me. And the you know, the luxury of turning my eye and kind of no, I can't see it. I'm not noticing, I can't I don't have that anymore because I'm trying to help.
This other group see. So I must see to see, which means I feel
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (21:04)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (21:05)
it to help them. And so then I must also pull in in terms of community. And if I need protection to ask for it. And I must name it. Often I'm in rooms and I name it, whether it's color or it's race. I'll say this is who I am and that means. And I kind of just acknowledge that. So I'm at greater risk here.
Calling you out could cause me to lose money for this contract. You know, and things like that. It have been it's been important for me to be more vocal as I become more aware for my own almost protection, if if that's part of it. And then to step back faster so that I can be in aftercare for myself.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (21:48)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (21:49)
You know, because just sometimes I you know, before I would just be like, Some of this work is just hard but I wouldn't recognize why it was hard. So now I'm
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (21:59)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (21:59)
I'm in a room and it's a particular kind of room and the demographic is a particular kind of way. So certain types of things are gonna come my way and that's what makes it hard. It's not just like I didn't go to bed enough early enough last night. So I have to leave and then go like the rest of this day is done for me because I'm gonna have to do some, you know, just tending, some recovery work, some being with people. so they I don't feel like there's a healed, you know, this it's an ongoing awareness of vulnerability.
And historical story that who knows when an old story that I thought was done jumps right
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (22:35)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (22:35)
back in in the presence of a conversation with a particular person. and then of course, with the aging body, then yeah, glossy, glowy, black and brown skin is different from what's going on here with this perimenopause. And to suddenly
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (22:49)
Mm, yeah.
Faith Clarke (22:51)
it becomes more of a
a question again that that it's I I don't feel as and is that because of the color that it doesn't like I want brown to look bluey.
I don't want bro know, and and cause cause white folks can look ashy and it doesn't look ashy, sorry. I don't mean you know, or lighter colors. So I think there there we have stories that
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (23:11)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (23:12)
show up at different points in time with different life experiences. All you need is one of my kids is in relationship with somebody who's much, much lighter than we are. And suddenly that's no a thing that's more of a old story show up, you know. So I don't
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (23:27)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (23:27)
know that answer, but that's
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (23:30)
I have to
say, I have to acknowledge you for you said you have to see in order to show. and I have been in spaces unfortunately where people don't do that work. Where people are like teaching an anti racist workshop and they refuse to acknowledge their positionality, right? Like how they're situated in the conversation, whether it be from a place of privilege or not.
Faith Clarke (23:54)
Right.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (23:54)
so I I just like even even
Among people who espouse to do this work, that's not always the case. So gratitude to you for being one of those people who who gets it.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:04)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (24:05)
I'll just
say that is I I feel like I was forced, but it's not true. I think we all have choice. But
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (24:11)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (24:11)
inside my household, I have neurovariant or neuroatypical adult humans who are blackbodied and queer. And so the the like I was confronted with my power.
At the same time as I was being confronted with my marginalized identities in the same moment with another adult human in front of me who is offspring. Like, am I and and just even what are the dynamics that are showing up right here now? Is this about am I in power because of the way my brain works different from yours? Or I'm am I is this about my age, in which case I'm not in power that you were, you know, and and and recognizing that all of the intersections become its unique thing in
that very moment. And so I say to clients, if you can't read how power is moving in a room, it it won't work. And that means even for yourself, you know, just but yeah, my kids have made me honest.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (25:09)
Ha
ha
Becky Mollenkamp (25:10)
They do that, don't they? well, speaking of like power and p positionality and all of that, you know, obviously as the as a white person in this space, I think for a long time, I well, first of all, I didn't think I didn't understand know about colorism. It just wasn't a thing for a long time. Then I when I started to learn about colorism, it was more in conversations happening within the black community and
And some calling in and out and things like that around are you within that community are we is someone acting in a way that is colorist? And that I think created some belief system for me that colorism wasn't sort of a issue for me to really understand, learn about whatever, deepen my knowledge around because it sort of felt like it was an issue within the black community and not about me. And so I think my more recent
Place with that is understanding that it can also be a yes and both things can be true. And that yeah, there can be issues within that, but that doesn't excuse me from also needing to understand and learn and interrogate within myself where do these things show up? Just like you were saying, I think Dr. Webby said something about like just how are we, both of you, I think we're talking sort of talking about like folks who have darker skin. Am I in some way making mental leaps that I'm not even seeing about?
Expectations on how that person should show up or will behave or things like that. And those are really confronting and challenging things when, you know, you've been raised in a place again with that, like either we don't see color or, you know, I'm I'm lucky enough to have been raised with parents who very much were like, you know, we all people are great, we love all people, all of that. Thankfully, I wasn't raised with hate. But I wasn't
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (26:52)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:53)
equipped with any of that understanding that I'm trying to give to my child around.
race, systems, and this even now like more nuanced level around colorism. So I think I just for the white folks like listening, I think it's easy, it can be easy to maybe excuse ourselves from this. It's almost like, well colorism isn't really an hour issue. And and it is. I mean I think it obviously it is as well. And so I just want to sort of state what I'm bringing into the space and my own relationship with this concept.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (27:22)
Mm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:22)
I don't
know if you if that brings anything up for Dr. Web, but
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (27:25)
Yeah, I mean it definitely does. Thank you, Becky, for saying that and for acknowledging that. you'd be you might be surprised that people from all walks of life and all racial and ethnic groups assume the same thing, right? That is this is not something for white people to think about or consider, or it only happens amongst black people or at, you know, maybe people of color in general. But I definitely want everyone listening, everyone watching to know that if you have skin.
You should be talking about colorism. You be learning about colorism at the very least. Let's say that. and especially if you are someone who wants to live up to the values of how you see yourself, right? So if you see yourself as someone who is open and who is equitable and who is fair and unbi or tries to be unbiased, right? Then colorism is something that you just can't escape from. And when we get to
more societal issues like racial profiling and police killings. And, you know, I I have a lot of hard conversations with people who just find it really difficult to acknowledge that there could be disparities amongst people who are the same race. Right. And so I think a lot of people are on board with like, yeah, you know, black and brown people disproportionately targeted for racial profiling and negative police encounters, often deadly police encounters.
And so it's that people have been con have become comfortable with acknowledging the racial gap in these types of areas. And people are far less comfortable acknowledging that even if we're talking about Black Americans, for example, not all of us are being treated equally in the justice system. Not all of us are being treated equally when we walk into a fancy department store, right? who's more likely to be followed or profiled? And you know, speaking of personal stories, I talk about in the book being stopped by police.
in California, in the Bay Area in Oakland, California. And, you know, I it it reminded me of the question, right, like how would the police know to my race if they're gonna racially profile me? Right. And so I always say in order to racially profile someone, it requires perceiving their race. And we use, as Faith mentioned, skin tone and hair are two of the foremost markers that people around the globe use.
To identify or perceive race and ethnicity, right? And even when we have different categories of race, so depending on what country you're in, you might be classified completely different racially. There's still the use of skin tone and hair, hair texture specifically, and also facial features for people around the globe to say, okay, this person is that race or ethnicity or that group or category. And so as long as we're talking about white people.
enacting and perpetuating racism, we have to understand the ways that white people perceive race, right? We have to understand the ways that white people have conceived of and constructed race. and so I use the Thomas Jefferson quote where he's he's saying like in the early days as race was becoming a social construct and it continues to evolve even to this day, but the the early colonialists were like, yeah, and obviously we're different because
Look at our skin tones, look at our hair textures, look at our facial features. They were literally saying that that proves a difference in race. And so for the way we understand race today, the history of that has always included physical features such as skin tone and hair texture and other things, right? So language, social customs, like there are lots of things in terms of how we conceive of race around the world. But
If a white person who's watching or listening wants to do their work around racism and anti-racism, understanding how skin tone and hair texture are used in the construction of race and in the perception of race is tantamount.
Faith Clarke (31:07)
Absolutely. I think
Becky Mollenkamp (31:08)
Fearing the
Black, can I just quickly mention, sorry, and I'm sure you you would say it too, but Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings was a big eye-opener for someone like me in that understanding of just how these things are actually constructed and continue to be used and weaponized. And I
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (31:22)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:22)
I can't wait to read your book. I haven't yet, but I've ordered it and I can't wait to read it because I'm sure it will add to some of that vernacular for me. Go ahead, Faith. So sorry to interrupt.
Faith Clarke (31:30)
No, no, no, no worries. I I was also just saying that since the system we're speaking against is a system of advantage, it's a system of oppression and system of advantage,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (31:39)
Yes. Yes.
Faith Clarke (31:40)
then we have to be aware of and I, like me, a black-bodied woman, has to be aware of what makes me trust a person.
And so to particularly why any the more power you have, the more aware you have to be because the more dangerous you can be in the power,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (31:56)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (31:57)
right? So but like what what makes me trust a person? What makes me call the police? What makes me invite a person in for a job? What makes me, when I've invited you in for the job, say that you're doing well or not?
And and and just to know that, yeah, if it's system one thinking, if it's automatic, if it's stuff I haven't interrogated, then it falls within lines of old stories that I may not even have consciously, you know, developed. Like I tell people in organizations we have systems in place that are based on values that outdate us. But it's there, it's living alive and giving people advantage. And so one of the things with colorism is just to acknowledge.
a person shows up for a job and I'll go with job, like one of my kids will get be faster trusted than the other. And that's because of features, you know, including skin. And yeah, it just it just is essential that we kind of have the humility to own that.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (32:58)
And I I wanna too drive home the point that people can have that exact same bias regardless of what skin tone they are, right? And so even you can even have a negative judgment about people who look like you. And I'm speaking to like other darker skinned people. Like I have been profiled by other dark skinned people. I remember going to the a museum in New York, I won't name it.
And the security part, like there's this statue in the middle, and everybody's walking around it. And I'm walking around it, I'm looking at it, I'm looking up at it, and I kind of lean in, right? But I I know museum etiquette. I'm not going to touch anything. And the the the security guard from the second floor yells down at me, ma'am, ma'am, excuse me, step away from the yard. And I'm like, Okay, I'm I'm in a crowd of people. We're all circling the art. Why am I the one being called out? Right. And that security guard.
looks like me, had my complexion, right? But just because you are a darker skinned person doesn't mean you haven't also been susceptible and conditioned by the negative stereotypes and the negative biases and and narratives about darker skinned people. And so, you know, to your earlier point, Becky, no matter what race or color you are, and what you're saying, faith, we all have a responsibility to check ourselves and to just, you know
self-reflect at the very least on, you know, what have been our patterns, what might be our biases or our snap judgments, and are we okay with that? Or are we the type of people who want to unlearn and relearn as as necessary?
Becky Mollenkamp (34:28)
Yeah, you mentioned something about sort of a more of a an acceptance or willingness to explore race in some of these systems issues and how race is showing up, and still more hesitancy around maybe exploring where colorism is a factor beyond just race. And I wonder your thoughts about how much of that is by design to sort of protect the systems, right? Because if we don't exp if we look like it it may
It just makes me think of a little bit of like virtue signaling in a way of like, sure, I'm willing to talk about race and I'm willing to explore those things, but don't make me go deeper than that because then I have to explore maybe like I'm here saying, of like, ooh, that's really hard work to then get even more in-depth ex because it's really easy for me to say, sure, no, I trust black people. And then
But if I really look, like who are my friends? Are they all much lighter skinned black people? Who am I like hiring? Are they all lighter skinned black right? I just wonder if it's sort of a way to still uphold the systems while also giving a little bit of that like virtue signal of like, no, no, we we're exploring race. I don't know what that if that if you think there could be something there. It's just my real time
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (35:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:34)
thoughts.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (35:34)
I I'd be curious on Faith's thoughts on this as well. But my initial thoughts as you ask this question are two things. So, yes, it definitely allows the the other systems to continue. And what I often say is like if we want to dismantle one system, we we will ultimately have to dismantle all of them. Like this, you know, we're not gonna be able to cherry pick which systems we dismantle. but when it comes to something like
racism in various countries around the world, I often say we don't see the type of progress we could see because we're ignoring colorism, right? And if you really want to solve a problem, you would you would be willing to understand it on a very deep and nuanced level so that you're actually addressing the the core issues, right? And making sure that the solutions you're applying are actually addressing the actual causes. And so
Being unwilling to look at colorism means we don't fully understand racism and therefore can't fully and completely address and eradicate something like racism, right? And so we have to be willing to like look at not just racism writ large, but what are all the intersectional factors that could really explain the the truer, deeper problems that are perpetuating racism. And so when we talk about, you know, I'm j we're just spinning our real wheels and
Why are we still dealing with this in 2026? Part of it is because people are only wanting to scratch the surface, right? If you only want to scratch the surface of a problem, it's gonna keep cropping up, right? but then the other piece, Becky, is that a lot of people leading anti-racist initiatives might be black and brown people who have that color privilege. And it's very uncomfortable if you've been
If you've found a lot of like gratification and being able to call out other people's privilege, it can be uncomfortable to then be the one who has to question or navigate being the privileged one in this particular hierarchy of this particular system. And so a lot of times, if there are black and brown people who are addressing race and working towards ending race, if they aren't like faith, in the sense that they can acknowledge that even though I experience racism, I can have other forms of privilege.
And that's work that unfortunately a lot of people doing this work have not done. my my hope and my suspicion is that more people are opening up to this intersectionality, but for a long time, for decades and generations, it has not people have not been willing to interrogate, right? Like I'm leading this social justice movement as a black person, but if I'm very light skinned, am I also willing to talk about the ways that I'm privileged, even in these spaces? And that's not always the case.
Faith Clarke (38:09)
Yeah. I think I like my my feeling on this and again I I the kind of colonizer behavior that I grew up in the water with is different from what's in the US. Right. So I
But I've I've just felt that in the US, we are the masters of the checklist. What are the six items that make us understand racism? Let's just and I'm like, six? Human beings are really complex entities. And and so, like for me, and it's it's about what are the mechanisms? What what's how does this thing work? And so
The way that I have abbreviated it for myself is proximity to whiteness. And a whiteness as its own thing can morph. And so you have to pay attention to that. It's a so but
If today shape of nose becomes the thing that makes me more proximate to whiteness, then that's a thing that we're gonna have to pay, and I think pay attention to. And so there's a part of me that is really irritated with the need to have the right set of things and completely miss what's happening, which is that we have a system of hierarchy of human value.
And everybody, aside from the elusive two, are on this somewhere, and we're trying to keep our spot because if we don't keep our spot with loss of resources and health safety and stuff, and
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (39:35)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:36)
so everybody is vulnerable to that thing, and those two people change what becomes the reason to have advantage in that system. And so there is a need for me to pay attention.
to yeah, what what are those things and yeah, color is absolutely and then I I you know I don't want to I was in twelfth grade, Dr. Webb when I held the the mirror to the side and looked at my profile. And I was like, what's going on with my nose? I just I'd never seen my face to the side. I'd only ever seen you know Barbie and even black Barbies, the nose is straight. Doesn't
And so I and I had a whole situation at 17, just like I willn't I don't ever want to see. And so it wasn't, yes, I think a useful conversation about features too, but just to own the fact that all of these things work together so that I recognize my place in this hierarchy. and I just it was it felt like such a donor to be like, my nose is flared out.
And that's not beautiful. And that was a without even having futurism as a as a thing. Anyway, I will not go on and on. I I do think that our own we fall prey to America's kind of listical and you know, let's have the right labels and then thinking like, please understand what's going on. My kid is not safe for a whole bunch of reasons. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:07)
Well, and th as again makes me think like the ways that I think for white folks listening, white women especially, like for to translate that into sexism, right? Because that's something that we experience with our positionality and understanding, like in that same way you were saying, like, you haven't solved for racism if you're still if you're not addressing these other issues. We don't solve for sexism if we're not addressing these other issues because it's not enough to say, I'm not sexist, and yet
You only hire white women, or I'm not sexist, but you only hire thin women, or you only hire young women, right? So it's that same,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (41:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:39)
like all of these things overlap. And so we can't you if we're not if we're not investigating, and I think most importantly, interrogating within ourselves where this is showing up in our relationships, in our in our dynamics with what we consume.
Then we're not doing it. And that because I wanted to ask you, I know that the book talks about all kinds of ways that colorism shows up. And I was curious because I know it's you said something, you know, even down to like dating and pop culture. So I'm curious like some of those kinds of things, what are what is the role that they're playing or that even maybe more acutely like that I can interrogate for myself to think about where colorism is showing up for me and some of those things that I might not be thinking about beyond just like who I'm hiring or who I'm in relationship with.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (42:23)
Hmm. my gosh, so many. one interesting one is 'cause I and I say this because there was a a white woman who was following me on Instagram and she was watching my lives and she said, you know, now after watching your live, I turn on the TV and I see it everywhere. I can't stop seeing it. I was like, So be careful about listening to me. You might start seeing things and can't unsee them.
But it was a live about gender. So right. So going to that point about peace, about sexism and women specifically is the ways that, you know, when we look at media and pop culture, how you and I'll I'll speak to Hollywood and the US media market specifically, for the sake of illustrating the the dynamic here, is that it's far more likely that you will see and feel comfortable with a dark skinned person being a man.
Are being portrayed in s in a masculine way, right? And so this is true even for same-sex couples in the media, right? Like if there is a more masculine presenting person in a romantic, and then it's not even romantic, it could be like siblings, right? Our coworkers or like our mother-father. it's the media pop culture seems way more comfortable, way more likely with the male person being dark skinned and so much more rare.
And I know people will talk about Lapita, right? And, you know, the the exceptions to the rule. But when you start to notice the pattern, the woman or the person who's depicted as a feminine character is far more likely to be lighter than the man. And I use that language specifically because even if you don't consider them quote unquote light skinned, the the relative skin tone is that the feminine person or the woman will be lighter than.
the man. And so this is true even for siblings. When we think about TV shows where there's a a family, you'll have like the husband, he'll be browner skinned, and his wife will be lighter skin. And then the brothers will be brown to dark brown. But their sister, oftentimes cast by like a biracial or mixed race, you know, actress, has lighter skin and loosely curled hair. And yet they're all the same family. And so that's one thing.
that people can start to notice as soon as today, right? Depending on what you watch. and when we think about the dark-skinned women who have sort of seem seem to have broken that glass ceiling and have been portrayed as the love interest or the main character, one, they stick out, they're memorable, precisely because it doesn't happen as often. But also, as Faith mentioned,
Their features, they're likely gonna have a thinner nose, they're likely gonna have the quote unquote flawless skin, be thin bodied, right? And so they will they'll they will likely align to every other oppressive beauty standard there is, even though they happen to be dark skinned.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:07)
Thank you for sharing that. I just
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (45:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:09)
want to quickly note, Faith, that white people not only can we get ashy, we can get called out for it. And I only know that from very personal experience. I am now investigating all possible oils and lotions. So if anyone has good suggestions, because I've been, I've been called in. Let's say called in. that this has been so wonderful. And I don't want to we want to make sure we're mindful of your time. Faith, anything else that you wanted to make sure we talk about before we go into our last our final sort of window?
Faith Clarke (45:34)
I guess I'm curious about the how. I'm always curious about the how. Cause you know, we listen to you like feel inspired. People, this is the not trap, but this is how I end up with work. Cause people are like, Yeah, we're sold. But now we're in the day-to-day in our office, in our church, in our community, in in place where our habits and our culture are alive and
So then what? Yeah. So okay, fine. I've listened to your book and I've I'm caught in your social media and and I am in this communal space where my awareness needs to translate to something. And I know it can't
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (46:12)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (46:13)
translate to my own individual differing attention, but like, yeah, how do we change this problem that has been plaguing us for generations?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:23)
Yeah,
because the second half of your book is the politics of skin tone and how we get free. So that's that's the part you're talking about, Faith.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (46:30)
Yes, yes, yes. and that to me that's the most important part. I I would not feel comfortable putting a book out into the world that did not offer people a place to go next once they understand the issue. and so I am a big proponent on journals, journaling. And I know people are gonna be like, no, it's not sensational enough. It's not you know, different and you know, novel enough. But I wanna like
Pause here on what Faith is saying. You're in this social context. You're in your office, you're in the classroom, you're standing in line at the convenience store, and colorism is happening. That is going to be, it's going to be very difficult to show up well in that situation if you have not been someone who has been doing the self-reflection in private at home, unpacking your stuff.
Changing the media you consume, changing how you interact in those one-on-one situations with your neighbor, with your relative, with your sibling, with your friend, right? And so we have to do intentional practice, both in structured environments, right? So if you have a friend or family member or colleague, right, like you know, Faith and Becky, right? Like we're gonna intentionally practice how we would show up.
in these, you know, random, sudden, unexpected moments in the office, in the school, in the hospital, right, or the dentist office. And also the the compassion and the self awareness of knowing that if you've been conditioned to something for 40 years, don't beat yourself up if it takes you more than four hours to unlearn that thing.
Faith Clarke (48:07)
Thanks.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (48:09)
And so starting
starting the process of okay, I'm gonna start exposing myself to different books and magazines and movies and I'm going to audit my friendship circle. And if I don't have friends across the skin tone spectrum, I'm going to make a concerted effort to get to know people, not just in a on on a movie, but people in my real life, my neighbor who's darker skinned, the person sitting next to me at the gym every Friday night.
Let me introduce myself and change my programming, right? And so I talk a lot about how we can do that. And so starting that process with the patience and the self-compassion and the self-grace to know, okay, I I was exposed to colorist narratives for 41 years. I I'm gonna give myself a little time to unlearn something different. And when we are doing that individual practice, then
As I mentioned earlier in this conversation, we become grounded and centered to say, I know when I see something happening in my office or in my school or in my healthcare facility. Okay, one, I acknowledged it. Two, I am comfortable enough to have a teachable moment, maybe with the person who who perpetuated it or the person who experienced it, and I'm going to be able to
invite people, invite people involved to a conversation about what actually happened and how we can establish systems or protocols to mitigate it or to address it if it does happen again. And this is a huge summary. In each chapter I break down more specific situational opportunities to create change. But the gist is a lot of times people do want to skip over that
uncomfortable individual, like let me reprogram, unlearn. And they just want to say, like, okay, now how can I start helping those other people get it right?
Faith Clarke (50:03)
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (50:03)
And so I'm like, yeah, absolutely start with leading yourself first. And you'll be surprised by how organically you become a leader for the people around you as well.
Faith Clarke (50:14)
I am famous for, but it may not be to my advantage of saying, you know, people say, Hey Faith, we need a workshop on, and they tell me a thing. And I'm like, you don't need a workshop, you need practice. And so just this idea that
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (50:26)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (50:27)
it must be founded in individual and then
between me and another person. That's where it actually comes alive, where I just I just I just tell my stories and have them witnessed and I practice the reframing and the changing and the healing. And I love what you said about the media that we're consuming because recently again I my own, I'm 56. This is a
wow, this is the later almost menopause, menopause type of conversation where life shifts and bodies shift. And I'm confronting my own as a person who's had a slim body for most of my life. Now it's just randomly adding, you know, roles and things. And
I have a story about what slim bodies mean. So now I'm actually looking for artists who are capturing women's bodies in ways that are just normal. There's not about quaft and you know, and it's been interesting just to note what happens to me for myself.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (51:25)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (51:26)
I can no longer when I'm looking at my belly and it's not I'm not just like, Why are you hanging over? I'm like, wow, a curve. You know, that there is a shift that happens as we change what we're absorbing and so yeah, I just really appreciated that. So thank
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (51:40)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (51:40)
you.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:40)
This has been really wonderful and I'm sure we could talk a lot longer, but we will wind down. So thank you so much for doing this.
what is it that as you exit this conversation and or the people listening so you can go either path? What are you or what do you want them to be saying yes to?
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (51:54)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (51:54)
can I interrupt that
I'm really curious about what you would be saying yes to even if no one else is saying yes to it.
for the rest of these questions.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (52:04)
okay, okay. I like this. I am saying yes to acknowledging that I'm always growing and evolving. and that to be alive is is to do that, right? Is kind of saying yes to whatever life is presenting me in this moment and not resisting it, right? Not fighting it.
are shaming myself because this is what life is presenting me in this moment. saying yes to meeting the moment with my current capacity and the current tools I have. and saying yes to dreaming bigger.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:35)
Love that. It
Faith Clarke (52:36)
wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:37)
sort of feels like because you missed Faith, our icebreaker, which was asking, like, what was the last thing you just got for yourself or did for yourself that just felt like a luxury, like a splurge? So it feels a little bit like I'm I'm doing things for me. You've said a lot of ands. So unfortunately, you have another. And the next piece does so you what are you saying yes to? And
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (52:55)
Hmm. And and you know, it's so interesting because I'm when when you say and, when I add the and, my impulse is to say and what I'm saying no to. I don't know if that's welcomed in this space, but so those those are the things I'm saying
Faith Clarke (53:07)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:07)
This Yes, this is you make it what you want.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (53:10)
yes to, and the things I'm saying no to or are dynamics and interactions that
feel exploitive and inequitable, dynamics and situations that clearly do not bring me delight. I'm saying yes to talking myself into things from a sense of obligation rather than a sense of true curiosity or joy. and I'm saying no to
hiding and shrinking and being sort of in a knot about expressing my authenticity.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:45)
it's so
good. And we finish
Faith Clarke (53:47)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:47)
with otherwise.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (53:50)
I see. I see.
This is so fun. I just was y'all are so easy to talk to, so thank you. otherwise
See, this is me self-censoring before I say it. Otherwise, what's the point? It's
Faith Clarke (54:02)
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (54:04)
like it's I I I want to have fun. I want to wake up every day and enjoy my life. And so those things to me, the otherwise is like I'm not really motivated to get out of bed and and do the thing that we call life if those other things are not true.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:17)
I love it. It does feel like full circle to the beginning of the conversation. It's so fabulous. And thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation too. Thank you so much for being here. We will include links in the show notes or descriptions wherever you're getting this to your book and to your platform, your global platform around colorism healing. Thank you for your time. Anything anything else,
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (54:37)
Yes, thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:38)
Faith, before we wind down and say goodbye.
Faith Clarke (54:40)
No, we'll just after we hang up, I'll I'll say something to Doctor Webb.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:43)
And the rest of you will never know what that was.
Faith Clarke (54:45)
Yeah, they'll just miss it.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (54:47)
Secrets.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:48)
Thank you so much.
Dr. Sarah L. Webb (54:50)
Thank you.