Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
The Trap of Keeping the Peace
===
[00:00:00] Introduction
---
Casey (she/her): when my husband and I first started dating he was the one into photography Um oh how the tables have turned Now I won't let him touch my new camera I love
Amy (she/her): Go buy your own, right?
Casey (she/her): buy your own Here's the old one
Casey (she/her): All right so I have a question for you About mm a month ago two months ago now time means nothing um I went on a
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): to Oregon and we were headed to the I knew part of this trip was gonna involve going to the coast and here I am with my brandnew
Casey (she/her): and I made this decision not to take my camera with me Partly I justified it as just packing cause I try to fly carryon only and I still have feelings about trying to pack my big fancy expensive camera which we need to work through
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): there was also this thing of like I'm traveling with two other families and I don't know exactly what the plans are and like but I also am gonna be on the coast and there's all these birds and cool things that would be amazing to photograph Is this a thing of like up not taking the camera to make that clear I ended up not taking my camera
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): one point the house we had on the coast had this like balcony that overlooked the water and the sparrows were like swooping in and out And I know sparrows are like one of the hardest birds to photograph but they're also the bird I first got tattooed on me so I desperately want pictures of them And my husband's like Oh you should have brought your camera and I'm like Er I know like what is the decision How do you decide Do you decide do you bring your camera your fancy camera on family trips curious how you feel about this what other folks think about this Like how do you decide when where and how to bring your camera
Amy (she/her): I, I have lots of thoughts and feelings about this. Lots of big feelings about this, as a matter of fact. Um, but first can we clarify, are
are you
talking about sparrows or swallows?
Casey (she/her): Sorry swallows Yes The
Amy (she/her): I, I thought so. I think...
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Um, have I mentioned I'm a little pedantic?
Casey (she/her): Yes And in
Amy (she/her): Once or twice.
Casey (she/her): and I still
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): back and forth Yeah
Amy (she/her): Uh, yeah. Okay.
Casey (she/her): Swallows
Amy (she/her): Okay, we can...
All right. So yes, family vacations. Uh, yeah, where to start? I know I mentioned in the origins episode that photography was something that had to, for me, the way I, you know, it kinda got into it and, and The way I was, I'll use the word allowed, allowed to keep going with it, is that it had to make a profit.
It had to be a business and had to make money. It could not be a hobby. It had to, it had to earn its place in, in, in my life and in our family dynamic.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): the dog sport stuff, that was easy 'cause that was already, you know, I, I did that and it was profitable and it was, it was good.
Got into birds, and suddenly I had this thing that I wanted to do that did not pay for itself directly. Like, it paid for itself in terms of experience. I could make the, the case that, I was improving my skills, improving my timing, 'cause birds are harder than dogs.
the bird photography that I do fits better with teaching. Because not everybody goes into photography to do a high volume dog sports business. So that ha- that is its own separate little thing that while I would, I could talk about that all day long, um, it doesn't fit with most people's experience, your s- experience even.
Most people are a little more casual with their photography, and so this question of h- how does it fit into the family dynamic, um, becomes, is, is a thing. Um, and the first time I realized it was truly a thing was a family vacation in 2015. I had just finished up a show in Orlando, Florida. Um, I had all of my camera gear with me because I drive to all the events that I do.
My family, which would be husband, two kids, um, and my parents came for a while as well. and the first place we went was we stayed in an Airbnb in St. Petersburg that was on one of the canals that came off of, off of the bay.
Um, and so I w- I got into birding because there were birds coming in, it, with their food, and I took out my camera and took a picture of an osprey that I, I went, "Okay, yeah, now this is a problem."
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): So that's how the birds started, on that trip, we went to,
Kennedy Space Center is there, and, and NASA doing a tour, family tour. But right there on the s- in the same area is, um, Black Point Wildlife Drive. Um, and so I, of course, now had this new hyperfocus, and you, we all know how that works with a neurodivergent brain. this is a, a wildlife drive, and
there's all sorts of, of birds that winter there. So all, you know, the, all of the herons and egrets and spoonbills and just lots of really good cooperative birds that I could go and try out my new, you know, my new hyperfocus with, 'cause I had good gear, so why not?
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so I, I, uh, hatched a plan. Oh, no pun intended. Sorry, that was bad. I, uh, hatched a plan to go h- there, um, before we met up for the NASA tour. So Ben and my older son, went to, um, with my parents to NASA. And Cameron and I, my younger son, went and did the wildlife drive.
in my head I'm like, "I'm doing a family thing still, see?"
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): and we had planned a time to meet And w- Cam and I ended up being late because the wildlife drive took longer and we got involved and, you know.
I still remember the look on my husband's face when we finally arrived. And I had texted him, um, updates and, but it was still that look of frustration and
Casey (she/her): Mmhmm
Amy (she/her): It was, it was anger that we had, you know, not been there on time and we're dissing the family for
Never mind that I had one of the kids with me.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so it was this whole thing of you have neglected your family in favor of your photography, was the, kind of the bottom line feeling that I got. And he, I don't remember if he actually said anything other than maybe kind of a cursory, "Finally you're here," sort of thing.
Um, but that feeling in my gut of I crossed a line was there. Um, and because of how I am, I guess, I react to that kind of a thing by trying to litigate my way out of it in the future, sort of.
Like
I, I will, rather than, than dropping it and saying, "Okay, fine, I just won't ever take my camera on vacation," um, I found ways to, like, okay, I'm, we're gonna go on this family vacation to Alaska, and I had a day where I was gonna go do bears.
And again, Cam came with me, so it wasn't even just me. Um, but I would find specific times, and we would talk about it ahead of time,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): to make sure that, that I was gonna get the photography that I wanted to do, but I wasn't going to neglect the family and, you know, hold everybody back or, you know, that kind of a thing.
So, um, yeah, I have,
Casey (she/her): That's
Amy (she/her): is a pretty personal issue to me, I guess.
Casey (she/her): A little
bit of a loaded subject cause I
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): I feel like I see that conversation in lot of family dynamics though and not always around photography But like when my family travels we intentionally make time for like different combinations of people to go do different things So when I visit where my mom and my brother and his wife live my mom always makes sure to take the kids so that my brother and my sisterinlaw can like go out to dinner once by ourselves And so like I think I come from a little bit of the anomaly family where we're so aware of like interests and how people interact differently when you're doing different things Like the conversations I have with my brother and his wife versus the conversations I would have with the two of them with my mother in the room different conversations
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): applying that to activities too And so like you the very first time you tried to do that were kind of I not even kind of like kind of punished for doing something apart from the group even if you did have one of the
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): like that wasn't good enough And then there's I think there's a
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): of this like when my husband and I first started dating he was the one into photography Um oh how the tables have turned Now I won't let him touch my new camera I love
Amy (she/her): Go buy your own, right?
Casey (she/her): buy your own Here's the old one Um but when we first got
Amy (she/her): Love it
Casey (she/her): was into photography and we'd go hiking And at the time I was very out of shape and so he would stop to take pictures and he would like apologize He's like Oh my gosh like Two more seconds I wanna get like one shot of this thing and then we'll go I'm like No please sir Take your time Like I'm back there dying trying to catch my breath So like when he stopped doing photography I was like Crap now I have to get in shape and like keep up with this man And so the But there still was this dynamic of like I could tell that he didn't want to like burden me or like throw off the flow of
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): by stopping to look at something else which when you're hiking in the beautiful mountains of Montana part of it is to stop and look at things So like it was never a bother
Amy (she/her): Oh,
Casey (she/her): But
Amy (she/her): don't even get me started on my... Mm. Y- he and I probably come from the school of thought on, on hiking, and that is you, you start at a place, and you hike to a place, and you stop there, and you look around and go, "Hey, we arrived." And then you march yourself right back to where you started, and God forbid you stop and look at anything, let alone photograph it.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): yeah, that's absolutely my experience. Like, on a, a... After I had learned to talk about, "Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop and do photos along this hike," you can go all the way to the end. I will not be offended that you get to the end, and, um, you might still find me here. And this did happen one time where it was a wh- uh, along the North Shore of Minnesota, and it's a whole series of waterfalls.
And I brought my camera, and waterfall photography, for me, is a very m- meditative thing, and I just take my time, and I change, you know, the angles of my shots and, and, My husband got all the way to the end and came back and found me at the same waterfall where he had left me, so
Casey (she/her): Oops
Amy (she/her): Um, and, and thankfully we had talked about that one ahead of time, although I think he still was a little bit annoyed that I hadn't at least progressed one or two waterfalls down the road.
Casey (she/her): right Start
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): he was gonna have to get back to get
Amy (she/her): "There's seven of them, Amy. Could you not have gotten to the second one?"
Casey (she/her): Right But I love that you guys
Amy (she/her): So
Casey (she/her): talked about it Like like so the the the thing that comes up in my brain then
Amy (she/her): Sort of
Casey (she/her): sort of but like on the family dynamic if you wanna bring a camera with you how do you make that work in your family dynamic And here's the big disclaimer that we have every episode of nuance is you have to know your
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): what the trip is
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): you're there Like factors play into this but I think the communication skill is so important And I think if I had asked my husband like Hey can I bring Like I'm gonna bring the camera Do you care if I break off from the group and like borrow the car for an hour and go check out this spot and do some Like arranged it nobody would've had a
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): it And so I think there's this element of like how do you balance relationships family time travel hobby And a lot of times I think we
Amy (she/her): Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): about it and so either we don't bring the
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): and then we are mad at ourselves for it or we bring the camera and then we're trying to like hurry up and like sneak and take a couple pictures and like get back to the hike without slowing
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): Or like
Amy (she/her): Or we're trying to do snapshots with a nice fancy camera, you know, just because that's what every, the non-photographers, that's
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): what they think. They, "Well, just take, just take a picture and then let's move on." I mean, it's...
it's
And you're like, "No, this, it's not about the actual snapshot, it's about the whole experience." M- the way I interact with this thing, this place that we are in, is by taking photos of it, and by discovering it by taking different compositions and photographing different pieces of it.
That is how I interact with my environment. And that's a hard thing to explain to people who are used to just grabbing their cell phones and taking a snapshot, and they're off. So
Casey (she/her): Yeah And so
Amy (she/her): that's, yeah.
Casey (she/her): how to like create that balance
[00:13:51] Have the Conversation
---
Casey (she/her): Cause like you you mentioned like the trip to Alaska like and I live in Virginia so it's a bit of a haul But like if I'm gonna haul my ass all the way to Alaska I have a brotherinlaw there I should reframe this The next time I have to haul my ass all the way to Alaska damn sure I'm bringing my camera unless it's the dead of winter I could care less Like I'm not leaving the
Amy (she/her): So The Dead of Winter is fantastic.
Casey (she/her): Uh
Amy (she/her): The Dead of Winter is fantastic and, okay, the next time you have to go to Alaska, you tell me and we're gonna go together.
Casey (she/her): Okay We'll we'll preplan this Okay But it's
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): of these trips where if I'm gonna go all the way to Alaska haul the camera Next time I
Amy (she/her): Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): like this trip to Portland is not an uncommon trip I do it once a year Like next time I'll take the camera But like there are some of these opportunities where you might only for some people might only go to Alaska once in their life and it would be silly
Amy (she/her): Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): camera so how do you
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): and you talked about this a little bit but I'm curious even more your mindset of like so you and your husband did learn to talk about it a little bit of like Hey I have this plan I'm gonna carve out this hour I'm gonna take me and camera me and Cameron and a camera You know like I'll take a kid
Amy (she/her): I know
Casey (she/her): so like you you talked about it but is there a mindset side of it where you still felt guilty Or how did you work through that Did you learn to just like talked about it I'm doing it ramifications be damned that side a little more
Amy (she/her): Yeah. I, I mean, ultimately the way I solved it was by getting a divorce, so I guess there's that. Um, and I, and, and I say that not to just be flippant about it, but to say that I have noticed a difference, or it took me a while to notice the difference between how I felt when I would go out and take pictures, um, you know, doing, whether it's birds or landscapes, those are my two kind of non-dog areas.
Um, how, how it felt to take the time to go do those things post-divorce versus pre-divorce. Because even if my husband and I had talked about how we were gonna, you know, fit in these things that, that each of us wanted to do, and I don't want it to sound like I was the only one doing the things that I wanted to do, because
We did learn to carve out areas for each of us. Like, if there was something he wanted to do that I didn't, I'm like, "Great, go, have at it. Here, take... Tuesday looks open. Go for it," or whatever. Um, so we learned to navigate it, but there was always an undercurrent, at least it felt like that to me, and obviously it's on- I can only tell my side of the story.
But it still always felt like there was an undercurrent, um, of, but we're not being together as a family. And e- and maybe that was manufactured in my head. I still don't know. That might have been residual, you know, from my childhood, m- because I guess when, when we would do family vacations, I mean, it, we were always all together all the time it felt like.
And if you didn't wanna go on a hike, with, s- too bad, you're gonna go because we're doing this as a family. Yeah, yeah, it kinda was. Um, so- Whether that was coming from him or if it was just old stuff coming from me that I was, you know, uh, projecting onto to our marriage, I, I don't know and I don't think I will know.
Um, but I do know that there's a, a very distinct difference between how I feel when I go out doing the, the fun parts of my photography now versus pre-divorce. But let me back up though, because we did get better at it. Um, we... I mentioned the trip to Alaska. So in, um, when we were planning that, I, I started pushing to plan it fairly, you know, lots of months ahead of time because a, a trip like that you don't just fall into.
You don't just show up and go, "Oh, I wanna go on a fishing trip out of Homer." And no, they're all booked. But if you show up on the day you wanna go, too bad, so sad, you are not getting any halibut. Yes.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): um, so I, you know, we planned a lot of things ahead of time. We knew when we were getting there, when we were leaving.
We kinda planned out the general route.
I wanted to do some landscape photography in the mountains, so the Denali area. I wanted to do, um, birds, uh, out of Homer, and, uh, whale watching out of Seward is really good.
and then my husband wanted to do, um, he and the boys went fishing. Um, and, uh, he went on a helicopter ride and landed on a glacier kinda thing. Um, so we each had our own little, you know, outings that we did that were independent of, of each other. And then there was a negotiation of who's gonna have the car, because there w- we only had one car for all, for all of us.
So,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): you know, does that mean, does somebody get up and drop someone off so that, you know, like if I was dropping them off for the fishing trip, or was I content to stay back or, and vice versa. Um, you know, so there's that, that, all those things that could potentially disrupt the other person's, you know, day.
We, we tried to negotiate that. But we
we did
we did. I mean, we, we got plans made and, um, made it all work. So,
Casey (she/her): Nice
Amy (she/her): but it did take-
Casey (she/her): of trying to coordinate like the guy like while husband and kids are fishing that's a good opportunity for you to go do whatever the thing was that you wanted in that location Just trying to like stack those
Amy (she/her): Actually,
Casey (she/her): where
Amy (she/her): no.
Casey (she/her): was doing Oh okay
Amy (she/her): We, because, and it came down to transportation in a lot of, you know, with having only one car. And so that usually meant that it was offset days. So it was one day I went and, and was on a boat charter, and the next day they went on the fishing charter. So,
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): it was just the way the logistics where we were worked out.
Um, I could see, you know, if timing worked out that you could stack things, then yeah, that would be another way to do it, for sure.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so but, but for us on that trip it didn't work.
Casey (she/her): Okay cause I always like to schedule my nap while my husband goes for a walk Like that
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): stack
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): do separately Uh I will take a nap you can go do whatever the hell you need to do sir
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): You know
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah
Casey (she/her): okay no that makes sense especially with that Alaska trip just the logistics of it But a way to navigate this if you're newer to like bringing your camera on a family trip is kind of looking at and like I think about my my niece and nephew are now old enough that they don't really they don't do nap time as much anymore but that would've been a good
Amy (she/her): Sure.
Casey (she/her): for me to like dodge out for a little bit
Amy (she/her): Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): they came and visit us not long ago and the kids went to the park and ran and screamed for like four hours Um Yeah perfect
Amy (she/her): Ouch.
Casey (she/her): like go do something else Like
Amy (she/her): Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): by the park for a little bit see what they're doing know And so yeah it's looking at the schedule and the logistics and having that conversation with your partner And then also like I don't know ever wanna tell anybody what to do with their marriage but also looking for the red flags in your relationships like I think like this is just one
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): to me when I talk to this about this stuff with other people is so we set up all these bird feeders in the backyard And so there was one morning where like it wasn't too hot I went and set up everything for um trying to get some bird photography in the backyard I set up my little bird blind I'm out there just my my bottle of water and my camera watching my battery light flash I don't have spare batteries yet and I'm watching Let me tell you that was a really stressful
Amy (she/her): thee to a camera store, woman.
Casey (she/her): I know I know for cardinal sin But like and
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): my dog come out the dog door which I knew my husband was gonna follow right behind I was like Crap cause if they come to this side of the yard it's gonna flush the birds And I'm listening and I'm just like watching my birds doing my thing and I realize I finally glance out the side of the blind cause I'm like Where the hell are they My husband took the dogs out into the front yard to play so that he wouldn't upset me in the blind and
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): And I'm like
Amy (she/her): Aw
Casey (she/her): I have a green flag of a man that I'm just
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): not sure how what lottery I won to get
Amy (she/her): Wow
Casey (she/her): is And and like it's also the kind of thing where like my husband saw it for himself but I think if he hadn't I could ask him And again this goes to the dynamics of your own relationships huge nuance in this conversation But like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): could ask him and be like Hey I'm gonna go do this thing you keep the dogs inside for a while If you take the dogs out can you take them out front And in our house that would work I know every house isn't that way But like
Amy (she/her): Yeah, no
Casey (she/her): it is an element of training the people you're with And being a strong
Amy (she/her): Yeah, I know
Casey (she/her): were saying that thing about like um taking taking nature photos It's not as simple as like stop and snap the photo Some people you can have the conversation and explain or even kind of show them and they're open to learning And like can we bring
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): our kids into the moment and be like Hey like
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): is what I Can you see what I'm doing here And and like it definitely changes the dynamic for you But like including them or explaining to them why this takes more than just a click of a button And sometimes that's not the
Amy (she/her): Well and
Casey (she/her): and I absolutely wanna
Amy (she/her): yeah
Casey (she/her): too And then like figuring out other ways to navigate that
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Well, it doesn't even have to be about kids. I mean, I have kids, but, there were trips that we would go on that was, were just the two of us occasionally. Um, and actually those were easier to, to negotiate the, I'm gonna go do this. if we would go to the North Shore in the winter, um, I would bring the camera, but
he liked doing winter activities like snowshoeing and cross-country skiing, and that's not my jam. Um, especially be- partially because I, that's really hard to bring a camera on it. And then, and that's what I would wanna do, is I would wanna...
So, um, but n- n- negotiating that or navigating that was, was much easier because nobody was abandoning the k- the children. So, but it can still be a sticky point if you've got people who have two different opinions about the way photography works.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so
Casey (she/her): Yeah I'm sure if my
Amy (she/her): there's that
Casey (she/her): get back into photography drive each other nuts trying to like do anything where we're shooting at the same time I just
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): I would con which is funny I don't consider myself creative which we've had that conversation but like I'm the creative one He's literally an engineer and how we look at things is so different that I'm sure he would get in my way and ruin all my shots Yeah So like I hope this man never I love him I would like to share a hobby with him but also I kinda hope he doesn't get back into photography
I'm gonna shift us a
Amy (she/her): Please, yes.
Casey (she/her): here because I think
Amy (she/her): Okay
[00:24:51] Permission vs. Having a Plan
---
Casey (she/her): this is an interesting conversation because I think every family dynamic has this Like as we've been talking about every family do you bring the camera Don't you How do you If you bring the camera how do you have that conversation to like make arrangements with the family and make everybody you know okay with you disappearing for a couple hours But like why conversation matters at a deeper level cause heaven forbid we have a service level conversation
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): this is part of how we build our creative muscle and do our selfexpression I think about this in the context of like content creators This is I mean I like I do a lot of content creation for social media I am still so embarrassed to film in public And like I do content all I put this stuff out Hundreds of thousands of people see my stuff and I don't care once it's on the internet But heaven forbid somebody see me recording something in public or if my husband's home like I can't I can't work I Nope he's here I can't rec I know
Amy (she/her): No.
Casey (she/her): watch that TikTok I know he's gonna watch that Like he watches everything on my Instagram He's gonna see the video but I can't record it in front of him And so I think there's this funny thing of like also I don't know quite how to word this letting the
Amy (she/her): Being like self-conscious?
Casey (she/her): yeah like being selfconscious and like letting people shrink us like take
Amy (she/her): Mm
Casey (she/her): that we enjoy Like I'm actively trying to work on the thing of like recording in public cause there are things I'm doing that I have ideas for videos that like I just have to get over my own shit and it's gonna be
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): And
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): I wanna kind of talk to that because there is this element of like what impact on your experience with like bird photography and landscape would h there have been
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): just
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): have those conversations with your husband if you guys never figured out how to balance taking the camera on a trip Because this
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): bigger than do I or don't I take a camera This is like a bigger as a photographer kind of
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, When I run into a roadblock like that, I tend to not react the way most people do, or at least the other people, people around me that I've noticed how they react.
I tend to like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out a way to make this work and write the rules," and you know. So that's my approach, but I see it a lot, where they back off, they quit taking the camera with.
So it always makes me sad when people talk about a big trip and then come back and, they're like, "Oh, I didn't take my camera." I'm like, what the fuck? And that they don't... It makes me sad, and I understand that they are, that is their family dynamic, and they're doing what is, is best for them and their family.
But it still makes me sad because it's like, this would be a great time to use it, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): didn't you take it? And why didn't you just have a conversation to say, "Hey, I'd like to take this."
Casey (she/her): as you're kind of saying this something that jumps up for me is like the element of permission I'm wonderinghoping that somebody who felt like they could never take their camera before because it's just a quote silly little hobby feels like they have the permission to at least have that conversation with their family Because I think some of us we've talked about how people don't think theirself they're creative or this is just and I that with giant air quotes This is just a hobby for some folks is the opportunities you have take the photos and it's okay if it's just a hobby It's okay if you have to have a conversation and like bring this up and ask And I think that's part of what I'm hoping comes out of this episode because that makes me sad too that like people miss out on opportunities to explore their creativity to do the thing that makes them a bigger person who like to do a thing that they love Like I'm already noticing I look at things around me differently cause I'm like Oh how could I
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): that would make a cool shot Oh like that's worth grabbing a camera for And if I don't ever get to act on that I don't get to ever that side of my creativity I don't ever get that joy of
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): photo and be like Oh shit that one worked Like look at this picture that I took And it
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): me sad that people lose out on that opportunity for whatever myriad of reasons But also like here is my big fat permission slip Like go ask
maybe it's not asking Go tell your spouse that you're bringing your camera and
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): gonna take an hour in the morning to go for a walk down the beach by yourself and get some photos
Amy (she/her): Maybe, maybe that's part of it is we're not talking about I'm gonna take my camera everywhere I go and I'm gonna slow us down on every trip that we make. It's
Casey (she/her): Good point
Amy (she/her): want an hour on two days out of our f- seven-day trip to go explore on my terms with my equipment the way I wanna interact with the world.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): rather than it
Casey (she/her): good
Amy (she/her): f- and yeah, and, and I think, and, and that comes back to have the damn conversation.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): if everybody's assuming something about the way this is gonna go and it's never said directly, then everybody's gonna just keep, it stay in their silos of how they think things are gonna g- work and what the other person is thinking. Maybe your spouse doesn't give a shit, that you're gonna, "Great, go take an hour."
I don't know. But at least have the damn conversation and take the equipment.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): the permission thing is a really, that's a really good word to talk about
I can only talk about my side of the story. Uh, I always felt like I had to ask permission, And I'm like, "Why do I have to ask We can have a conversation about it. We can modify what I wanna do.
We can, you know, make it work for both of us, but I don't, I'm a grown-ass adult. Why do I need your permission
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): a couple hours away from the whole group?" Um, you know, that, that doesn't make sense to me. but I did not have the language to know how to have that conversation.
I'd love it if folks would question that in their lives. Am I waiting for permission? And maybe they are.
Maybe it's not even a bad thing in their relation- they're just waiting for permission and waiting,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): know, they're, they don't wanna be a problem, they don't wanna be a bother, they wanna keep the peace. Um, you know, I want everybody to do what they wanna do and, and whatever everybody else, else is doing is fine with me
I'll be fine.
Casey (she/her): I wonder too for
Amy (she/her): Fine
Casey (she/her): I if there's like a generational element here of like we did family trips and everybody did everything every minute together whereas I feel like when I watch my friends who are my age with kids younger there's a different approach to vacation
Amy (she/her): Mm
Casey (she/her): do something that the kids are interested in or we let this person go off and do the thing that they're interested in And so like yeah like we all have our own shit We all have our own relationship dynamics We all have our own traumas We all have our own upbringing stories And so it's interesting to hear the different comparisons of like how to approach these
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): or like that sense of like waiting for permission to do something within a relationship versus being the one who brings up the conversation and not in a tone to ask permission but the tone to say Here's what I want to do and how can we work together to make this happen
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): this
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): It is a complicated thing because all of us have relationship shit and navigating
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): and navigate it And our own And I think too uh oh that's where my brain was going
[00:32:40] Why "Being Considerate" Gets Complicated
---
Casey (she/her): I think there's also an element of waiting for permission from like our partner is a really great way to um unconsciously selfsabotage yourself out of doing things that scare you And so I hmm
Amy (she/her): Oh.
Casey (she/her): think there's
Amy (she/her): Mm.
Casey (she/her): there's a little element there too of like Oh I'm going on a family trip I can't bring my camera cause I'm spending my time with my family where like you
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): be conscious of it of like part of me is glad that I didn't have my camera when those swallows were swinging by because I know they are an insanely difficult bird to photograph and I would be mad at myself and disappointed if I missed all the shots And so if I don't have the camera I can't miss the shot and ruin the opportunity And so I think there is this like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): That selfsabotage thing and it's hard to see and understand because the relationship
Amy (she/her): Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): is more obvious and apparent You're like Oh it's just a it's how my family works It's a relationship thing But there's this underlying element of like do you want it bad enough Are you
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): enough Are you devoted enough Are you curious enough you willing to miss a bunch of good shots but at least have the camera there to have the chance to take those shots And I think sometimes that also is unconsciously playing into our choice of even having these conversations to bring the camera or not
Amy (she/her): That's, that's a good point. and I am too stubborn and too determined to, take the photos I wanna take that I wasn't gonna let it stop me. And so that's why that's always been my approach of I'm gonna figure out a way to, to make this work, I will deal with the discomfort of the feelings I sense from the, uh, the other party in this, because I, I, it's worth it to me.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and so that's, that's... Yeah, but no, that's a really good point,
Casey (she/her): I mean even just looking at the pho photography I've expressed how supportive my husband is Like I could see us next time we go to Alaska to see my brotherinlaw I take a the rental car for an hour or two go do my own shooting come back and join the family and look at the photos and like they're all crap And I would like feel some sort of way about having like diverted from the family for an hour or two
Amy (she/her): Hmm.
Casey (she/her): having anything to like show for it so like which is very much my own thing to get over I'm glad I noticed that now
Amy (she/her): that added intensity of a o- once in a lifetime trip kind of throws a lot of additional baggage in there, for sure.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): which just means that it's, it has to be even a more, you know, intentional conversation with the whole family, with whoever is involved in this trip, to say, "This is what I wanna do." But the other way to do it is to use it as a scouting trip, and not have it be a once in a lifetime, but to have it as, as a twice in a lifetime maybe, and the second time you go back without the family.
Um, you know,
there
is something to be said for going on trips that are just for photography.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): a really, that c- if you have the financial means, that can be a really good way to solve a lot of these issues. Um, and it's one, another way that I have solved them, because I will, I will tack on a few extra days of, to do birding in places where I'm going for dog shows.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): gotten burrowing owls that way. I've gotten diving ospreys that way. I've, I mean, there's all sorts of things that I've just taken the opportunity to add on to my business trip, um, some days to go birding or landscapes and, or I've gone back to and just done them as, you know, straight up no dog show involved trips.
Casey (she/her): go yeah I'm going back to this place Yeah
Amy (she/her): yeah, yeah. But even, I mean, that takes n- navigating and negotiation in terms of going on a trip by yourself. That could, th- there's a whole new Pandora's box that could be opened there.
Casey (she/her): But
Amy (she/her): so
Casey (she/her): one of our original points you don't know if you don't have the fucking conversation And so if there is that bird trip you want to go on that's just you and a camera and hopefully some goodlooking birds you still have to have that conversation if you wanna do
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. And approach it not as permission, but as this is what I'm gonna do, but I wanna make sure it's not gonna be disruptive
Casey (she/her): How can we
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): this tra trip together Yeah Yep So
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
[00:37:02] Where This Is All Going
---
Amy (she/her): So I know that on our schedule we have an episode about imposter syndrome, and I think that's, we're, we're capping off this season of 10 episodes with that. And I think this is the precursor to that.
This can be the precursor to that, or is an element of that, um, where the feelings, the, the way we interact with the people that are close to us informs how we feel about our own photography and our own creativity. Um, and so I think calling that out explicitly here to say we are gonna talk about imposter syndrome, but imposter syndrome may not be what you think it is, or may not...
It may have different roots than what you are thinking it has.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): because if we find ourselves backing off on doing our creative endeavors because of the resistance we feel from our family or close friends or whatever, then that makes us question, am I really a photographer? Am I really a creative person?
Am I really an artist? Um, and, and it just, it turns into something bigger, and we forget or we, we don't recognize the link between the, the reactions we're getting from the f- people around us. We don't link them to this idea of, oh, I'm not really a, a photographer, I just have a camera.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so
Casey (she/her): Yeah no
Amy (she/her): calling that out ahead.
Casey (she/her): yeah no you're spot on There's definitely m element of how all these relationship dynamics feed how we see ourself and I think you're right I think that imposter syndrome is episode 10 um
Amy (she/her): Ten.
Mmhmm
Casey (she/her): out Yeah but this is definitely a big part of that conversation is how do we navigate our relationships our feeling about those relationships and how are we going to show up doing our creative endeavors in the that environment
So yeah uh episode 10 is gonna be amazing I already know there's several people who have asked us to talk about imposter syndrome so if you're listening right now that episode is coming Um and so be sure to like and subscribe follow us wherever you're wa listening to this watching this Um push the button so that you know when next week episode comes out And in the show notes you can find websites to get ahold of Amy or I and learn more about the work either of us does individually and we will see you on the next episode