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Hosted by SRPMIC Assistant Community Manager, Lena Jackson-Eckert, this podcast takes a closer look at the programs, services, and people that help shape our Community. From everyday resources to unique stories and conversations, we’re here to share what matters. So let’s go ahead and zoom in.
Content warning. You may notice a different tone in these next few episodes of Lena's Lens. It's a little bit of a change of what you're used to. It includes discussions on grief, trauma, and other emotionally heavy topics, as well as profanity. So please listen with care.
Lena:Welcome back to Lena's Lens. I'm Lena Jackson Eckert, Assistant Community Manager for the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community. And today, we bring to you the final episode in our special miniseries featuring the Therapeutic Writing Program at the Salt River Department of Corrections. In this episode, we sit down with Brian Butler and Andrew Carlisle for the last of our Roundtable discussion. In closing, you'll hear Councilwoman Suk Fowaldur share a piece she wrote specifically for the individuals and for this experience.
Lena:And to close the entire miniseries, we'll end with a reading from Eric Wood, a piece the whole class asked him to share as their final message. They felt his words captured something meaningful and wanted it to serve as the closing voice of this project. Let's join Brian and Andrew for the final Roundtable.
Su:k:All right. We're here with Brian and Andrew, and we're just doing a Roundtable discussion. And I wanted to hear from you guys. I know talked a lot about different topics, one of them being breaking cycles. And I wanted I wanna ask, how do you feel about that breaking cycles?
Su:k:Where are you at in life with that?
Brian:Breaking cycles, this topic was brought up in, like, one of our first two meetings. I guess we kinda looked at it from the point where we are now in our lives. A lot of the men here are older than me. Some of them are younger. But a lot of us have been through a lot of crazy stuff.
Brian:Just the past here on the reservation, the way we're taught to be, how we're raised, mainly by grandparents. You know? A lot of our grandparents have raised us, and we find an outlet to start mingling with people that we shouldn't. You know? We're like my partner Andrew said, we get into, like, the the lifestyle of, like, just trying to fit in with people that don't have our best interest, that won't be there down the road, like, years from now or, you know, just not having their best intentions for us in the long run.
Brian:So the breaking cycles topic was to show that it's okay to just do your own thing. Whatever that thing is in a positive way is is best because you can either live your life day by day and just getting high every day, trying to pull up to the plugs house or go down the road to you know where and post up all day and just be smoking, drinking, not not caring, you know, and not having any responsibilities. Not really just not loving yourself at all. You know? Like, you you you're around people that that are doing the same thing as and it's just a everyday thing.
Brian:And that everyday turned into weeks, months, years, and then it gets to a point where you start hearing about people just overdosing, falling out, getting long long sentences, going to prison, like, stuff like that. You know? And it's just, like, you you don't expect that, and you don't expect to be calling home and be like, oh, so and so fell out today and they passed away, or so and so was drinking and driving and they killed somebody or they themselves got killed. And it's just, like, the importance of breaking the cycle of just focusing on yourself at some time in your life is is a good thing. You know?
Brian:Some people may look at it and like, oh, you're getting soft, or, oh, you're not about that no more. Like, oh, let's let's go out. Let's go drink. Let's go do this. But it's okay to be like, no.
Brian:I'm cool. Like, I'm just gonna kick it at home. You know? Like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do my own thing, you know, because eventually, it gets too old, and you're not you don't wanna be that, like, really old person trying to be hanging out with all the young kids and, you know, just out of the ordinary, just you know what I mean, just making a fool of yourself because you that's what it turns into is you start making a fool of yourself. And you get to an age where you're like, damn, I'm still doing this.
Brian:Or or or you see, you know, your nephews, nieces, or whatever, like, and they start following your footsteps because they think it's okay. They they like, Oh, well, dad does it, uncle does it, auntie does it, or my older cousin does it. Like so they want to do it, you know, whether it's, like, drinking at a young age, using drugs, gang banging, like, just stuff that doesn't get them nowhere eventually. You know? Like, all of it runs out, it leads to places, either death or long, long sentences, like, handed down by the judge.
Brian:You know? You don't get nothing else out of out of those things, you know, other than those two. And if you, by chance, get to a point where you do, you're just gonna get really old, and it's gonna get, you know, it's gonna get rough. So I think just the the fact of just being your own person and how the others said, just loving yourself, taking care of yourself first and foremost. You know?
Brian:Because if you try to do it for other people, it's never gonna work because you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it for others for recognition. You're doing it to be like, oh, well, I did this. I did that. But it's okay to be like, oh, I wanna do this for myself.
Brian:You know? I wanna stay sober. I wanna be a good parent. I wanna be a good dad. I wanna be a good mother.
Brian:You know? So, that was just real important for all of us, just breaking a cycle that's been, I don't know, just been in our families for a long time. You know? Like, we all suffer from, like, drugs and alcohol living on the res, and it's all, like, really everyone sees everyone sees that every day, you know? Like so it's okay to just be the oddball in the family and just do your own thing.
Andrew:For me personally, like, breaking cycles, it's a big thing because a lot of people tend to go through a lot of things. And sometimes, like, they don't choose to go through that stuff. And that's why, like, I'm big on speaking to the younger men, males, because that's where it starts. From the way we treat the women to the way we do certain things, because even for the men after me, there's gonna be men after them that are gonna be watching them as well. And that played a big major role in the way that I started thinking and why I started thinking the way I do.
Andrew:Because it's just like, I went through a lot of stuff as a kid, and I didn't want to go through that stuff. I didn't ask to go through that stuff. And even females, too, because I know a lot of females personally that grew up that whole silence because they feel ashamed or they feel they're gonna be judged and they shouldn't feel like that. A lot of them get abused, taken advantage of, and that's no way to live. And it all starts with the men when it comes down to it.
Andrew:And I got a nephew. He's the first first boy and the next generation after. And it's just trying to break the cycle with him to show him, like, there's other things to do. There's other ways to live. And a lot of people get confined to this reservation.
Andrew:They think that this is all there is, and it's not. There's more out there in this world. You just gotta be willing to let certain things go and just put it in your mind that nothing's really gonna change here. You're not leaving nothing. Know?
Andrew:You can leave for five years, ten years, however long it is, and come back. There's gonna be somebody doing the same thing, same stuff. So why try to wait around for that? Why waste your years trying to fit in, trying to see where you fit in and all that? Go out there and enjoy your life.
Andrew:Live it how you wanna live it. And that's really all it is. It's just being yourself. It's okay to be different like I've talked about because it really is. Why try to live up to somebody else's expectations or think you have to be like either your dad, your uncle, or whoever it is that you may look up to that's not on a positive path because in your heart, I know that that's not really where you wanna be.
Andrew:So it's okay. Like, I don't know. Like, that's all I really could say is it's okay to be yourself. It's okay to be a loser. If people call you a loser or, oh, you're lame for doing certain things different, then cool.
Andrew:You know what mean? Like, going through everything I went through, I would rather be a square and a loser any day because this this is no place for nobody. Like, who wants to be told what to do or when to do it? But, yeah, just breaking cycles is the biggest thing because that's where it starts. Someone has to start it.
Andrew:And even if I can't start it, I hope my younger brothers take it from me to finish what I can.
Speaker 5:For the both of you, what was it? Was it a certain event? What thought? I guess just when did you guys decide it was time for you guys to break the cycle? Like what was it that kick started that thought process for you?
Andrew:For me, it was this time around. Like, I've been in and out my whole life, like, basically since I was eight, nine years old. But this time around, and it's different because I got to see my people for how they are if I were to choose to keep doing what I was doing. And all it took was for me to look around. And I'm not saying I'm judging them because everybody has their own choice to do what they do.
Andrew:But at the same time, I knew personally that that's not what I wanted to be like when I'm 50 years old and 40 years old. Just going through my life and seeing certain things, know that there's more than all this. Just being in there, meeting the people along the way. And, yeah, I don't know. It's just this whole experience from the classes, from the BHS to just everything really.
Andrew:Everything opened up my eyes and it just I'm only 23 years old, but sometimes I feel like I'm old and tired. I've done plenty of stuff that people do when they're 30, 35 and up. You know? So it's just like, I'm just ready to live a regular life. Like, there's something going on.
Andrew:But, yeah, that's that was it for me.
Brian:Yeah. I would say for myself, just I mean, this is, like, my second time being incarcerated. The first time, I had to do six months. This the second time, I got six years. So just the just the huge gap of of seeing where I was going in life, what I was doing, how I continue to just do the same things on the weekends, how I continue to be how I was.
Brian:I I had some time to sit down and realize, is this is this how I want to be known as? You know, because we all have an opportunity to to make something of ourselves. And the more I thought about it, I was like, nah, that's that's played out. You know? Like, it gets old.
Brian:And, the cycle that I broke for myself is just I would say it was my old habits, putting myself in environments where I knew I could find trouble or trouble could find me. You know, not not only being being that way, but, like, you know, I went through a pretty, I would say, crazy experience. You know? Like, I I got stabbed and and and I still didn't learn, you know? Like, I almost lost my life.
Brian:Like, it was crazy, you know? And you know, I wake up every day and I see see the the holes in my arms and my stomach, and I'm like, dang. Like, I was really going through a lot. I was really in the streets, like, just doing dumb stuff. Like Drew said, just trying to fit in.
Brian:And and it was putting me in places where it was no good. I wasn't getting anything out of it. You know, I didn't have kids then, but I I did meet my kid's mother that same night. Got stabbed. So it was just like, oh, you know, like, what a crazy thing, you know?
Brian:And now nine years, eight years down the road, you know, I've made a lot of progress. I've I've helped people that I didn't even expect to be helping. You know, there's there's people in here that like like, my partner, Adam, his nephew came in and one of the things he was like, Hey, can you talk to him? Can you look out for him? Tell him what's up.
Brian:And that was something that I did, but I didn't think me saying anything to him would even matter. But before he left, he really thanked me and he was just like, Yeah, I don't wanna do that. And I started telling him, It's all right to be cool. Just do your own thing. And I told him, When you do time, you do time by yourself.
Brian:There's gonna be people there to help you. There's gonna be people there to take care of you. And those are the ones that were originally trying to tell you to behave. Stop doing this. Stop doing that.
Brian:And it may seem like they're always on your ass about something, but it's because they care and love you. And you'll start seeing, you know, who's there for you, who's not. And and in places like this in like actual real prison, like you'll find out who has their best interests. You'll find out who's willing to go above and beyond for you because it's hard out there. Life doesn't stop, you know, for the ones that are outside of these walls.
Brian:Like, there's bills that need to be paid. There's children that need to be taken care of. There's work that needs to be done. And, you know, like, it's a lot on them to take care of themselves, others out there, but take care of the loved ones in here. And some men don't have that.
Brian:Like some people don't have, have someone that they can call every day or some, some people don't have like someone that they can call, Hey, can you do my store? Can you buy me some phone cards? Like, you know, so it sucks, you know? And I think, you know, just like Drew said, just it's okay to be different. It's okay to just sit back and chill and not try to fit in with everybody else.
Brian:And don't be so worried about what other people think, like Adam said, you know? Because at the end of the day, when you start thinking that way, you're you're just digging yourself into a hole. And it and it it really gets you down because you're so worried about what social media says. You're so worried about what your cousin or your auntie or your ex is, like, saying about you. And it's just like, whatever, you know?
Brian:Like and nine times out of 10, people aren't really you know, they don't really care what you're doing. It's just you're putting that thought in your head, and it gets you all messed up. And you're like it's like you're showing out. For what, though? You know?
Brian:Like, something I try to tell my daughter, Casey, like, just be good at school. Listen to your teachers. I tell her all the time when she goes back and forth to my to my dad's house, you know, make sure you're listening to grandpa. Make sure you listen to your aunties. You know?
Brian:Like, I I I just try to let her know that that, you know, she she sometimes will ask like, like, my friend's dad's he's not in jail, but he's not there. Like, you know, like, when will you get out? You know? Like, when can you take me to school? Like, I missed her first day of school, and I I got it in a picture, in the form of a picture, and I, like, I cried.
Brian:I was like, dang. I should have been there. You know? So it was like that eye opening moment of getting six years for the people, you know, that I heard as well, you know, like, that changed me too. You know?
Brian:It wasn't a great feeling. It's it's something that I was hard on myself about, you know, because I know these people, you know, and it was just like, man, you know, I made a I made a choice out of pride and ego in, you know, doing something dumb that landed me this much time. In a place like this where it's not really we're locked down, like, twenty three hours a day. We're just in our cell I mean, in our in our pod. You know?
Brian:We don't only time we get an opportunity to see the sun or some fresh air is, like, during visits or classes. You know? So it's like I've heard people say like, oh, man. I've been in prison where, like, we're walking around all day doing stuff like this. And I spent the last four years sitting in a in a pod.
Brian:You know? Like, it's just like, do I want this forever? Do I wanna keep doing this? Do I want my kids to to start getting used to the normal of like, oh, dad's in jail. Oh, dad's in jail.
Brian:You know? Like, at what point for myself do I do I get it together? And I started to learn that in here. And it sucks that I I had to learn in here because it's like, didn't I I don't feel as good. It was like, why couldn't I have done this outside?
Brian:Why couldn't I have made the choices that I'm making now out there? But I just didn't have any guidance, and I found it I found it alone, and I found it through other people that I've started to, like, get to know. You know? These classes helped me in huge ways. You know?
Brian:School's tough. When I started college in here, it was like, could I do this? Could I finish this? And now I'm almost done. And to walk out of here like a college grad is like, I feel pretty proud of myself.
Brian:That's that's my cycle too. It's like, I'm pretty much the first child for my mom and my dad's side, like, to do that. And I did it in here, you know? Mhmm.
Lena:That's something to be proud of.
Brian:Yeah. Thank you. And and and I wanted, you know, for my brothers and sisters from both sides, you know, like, I want them to know that, like, yeah, I'm okay. You know? Like, I miss them.
Brian:I love them, but I'm proud for what they do. You know? Like, I have a little brother, you know? He he he had his first son and he's doing a he's doing a great job, you know? And if there's anything that I could tell him, it's just keep doing it.
Brian:Keep doing what he's doing. You know? Keep going to work. Keep paying the bills. Like, you don't live for yourself anymore.
Brian:You live for, you know, cast. You know? And so I I just hope someone hears this, whether it's someone older, somewhere younger, a parent that's just going through something that we've all been going through, and they can take from it and be like and and just really self evaluate. Look at look into the mirror and be like, damn. Like, enough is enough.
Brian:You know? Like, I gotta hang it up. You know? Because, like I said, you get to a point in life where it's just too much. It's overbearing.
Brian:Like, you can't handle it. You can't you're just dragging others down with you. And the ones that really care and love for you, like, you hurt them too. You know? It's not just a a one-sided thing.
Brian:It's there's people that want greatness for you, and everyone deserves to be happy. Like, before, like, we deserve that. You know? And for the ones that think they don't deserve it, like, do. You really do, you know?
Brian:They may be tough. It may be hard. And and you may think, like, well, shit. People are gonna make fun of me if I do this. Or people are gonna make fun of me if I go hang out with this person or if I don't show up to this part or whatever, you know?
Brian:But it's like, it's okay, you know? Just do your own thing.
Lena:Why do you think, programs like this are, important in a correctional setting?
Brian:I think these programs are important because some of the individuals here do not, they haven't had any guidance. They haven't had anyone show them, like, these type of things. There's some people that I've met in here that don't know a lot of stuff that I would like, Oh, you don't know how to open a bank account? You don't know how to apply for a job? You don't know how to communicate?
Brian:You know? Like, every every other word is a curse word. And, like, these programs are teaching individuals such as myself as well, like, to speak, how to carry yourself, how to present yourself, you know? Like, it's opening doors for people that actually want to change, you know? Like, there's there's a good a good handful of people that I've known to leave this place and actually change their life around, that are working for the community, that are actually doing something positive.
Brian:Know? Like, my counselor, Mark Case, he's someone that I've really started to speak to and open up on another level. And, I'm just grateful that that the people that take the time out of their day to come down to a place like this, it means a lot because you're giving an opportunity for us to be heard and not only heard, but to express how we feel because a lot of the men and women, they just hold stuff in here. You know? It's it's it's pretty much frowned upon to try to, like, feel.
Brian:You know? It's like some people call you soft, you know? And so, like, everyone walks around with that, oh, I'm cool. I'm tough. I'm I'm this.
Brian:I'm that. But sometimes people are hurting, you know? And and they walk around with that for so long that they eventually get to a point where they can't take it. They don't have an outreach. They don't have someone that's willing to just help them and listen to them.
Brian:And the counselors and, like, all the workers that work with us, like, they're helping people change their lives. And whether it's like one, two, three, or four, it's it's still helping somebody. And and people are taking stuff from this, you know? Like, they're real like, education, you know, GED, college courses, reentry program, anger management. Like, there's all types of different classes that we get into, you know, to the ones that set it up for us, Burnside and and Sergeant Woods, you know?
Brian:It's it's it's great that we have people like that that actually care, you know, like that are trying to get different resources in through our community. You know, like, yeah, it's their job to do that, but it's like, they go above and beyond for us, you know, like to get you guys in here and and and really go to bat for us, really.
Lena:Mhmm. What do you think, Andrew?
Andrew:I feel like it's very important because, like he said, it just it gives us the opportunity to understand that it's okay to open up and express our emotions because most of our life, that's what we're taught not to. We're taught to keep it hidden, not show it because if we show it, it's a sign of weakness. But I feel like it's important because it's giving somebody who may feel like there's nobody out there that cares for them a chance to see that there is people that do care for them because the people that do come in, they don't have to come in. You know, they're taking time out of their day to come try to talk to us or do certain things with us that really they don't have to. So I feel like it's really important socially and for people mentally because, like he says, we spend all day in the pod not really interacting with people.
Andrew:So when the classes do come in, it's giving us a chance to interact with other people besides inmates. And it helps them socially and helps them prepare, even if not a lot, a little bit for when they get out of here. But, yeah.
Lena:Thank you. Last question for you guys. What are your hopes for yourself for the future?
Andrew:My hopes is to get out of here and do everything that I am planning to do. And that's the thing. A lot of people wait till the last minute or they'll be like, I'll change when I get out or I'll stop this tomorrow. But in reality, that's just an excuse to keep pushing it off. For me, change starts now, today.
Andrew:You know what I mean? You gotta start doing it because if you keep pushing it off, then you're just gonna keep pushing it off. So I have plans. I started going to school. I'm a be going back to school.
Andrew:Nice. And, yeah, I wanna open up a business. It's gonna be a business for the youth, really. Like, I wanna do something, like I've told them already in class, to give back to my community because I felt I've done enough damage and our community needs fixing. It needs people to stand up for what they believe in and not care about what other people have to say because everybody's gonna criticize everything no matter what, you know?
Andrew:So you just gotta get past that fear and get past the self doubt. And that's where I'm at with everything. Just if it's nothing good, you know, I tune it out. If it's nothing that's gonna help me in my journey, then I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna listen to it, but at the same time, it's just I'm at a point where I'm searching for what I can apply to myself today, tomorrow, and next week to be a better person than I am today. But yeah, my life goal is to open up a place, kind of like the Wolf and kind of like the Boys and Girls Club combined, but it's not.
Andrew:It's gonna be somewhere along the lines for troubled youth. I want them to understand that if they have troubles at home or they're going through everyday's life trials, you know, that you can come here and get away from whatever it is that may be going on at home. And again, like everybody has been saying that we're not alone. They're not alone. You're not alone.
Andrew:You know? There's people that understand what it's like. So just trying to make people who feel lost or who feel broken cared about. Because if we can't show that empathy, then it's just no psychers are gonna be broken. It's just gonna keep going on and on.
Andrew:So that's really what my ultimate goal is in life.
Lena:Nice. We'll we'll support you however you need to.
Andrew:I appreciate him.
Lena:How about you, Brian?
Brian:Yeah. Like Drew said, you know, like, change change starts now. It starts today, you know, whether you're inside of here or or outside of these walls. For myself personally, I hope I hope to look back one day when my children are older and and really let them know, like, I made something of myself even in a dark time. And I wasn't there for you kids during that time physically.
Brian:And it's something that I can't get back because we can't, you know, turn back the hands of time. But for me, like, my end game is pretty much breaking breaking my personal cycles, you know? Really putting some action behind the words that I've I've talked about, you know? Like, I don't wanna be someone that's just talking just to talk. At the end of the day, people will start considering you a bullshitter.
Brian:You know, if you're talking a good game, but you're playing pretty horrible and people pick up on that. And it's just like, oh, he's a front. Oh, just did that because he was in there. So like, I would like others to start seeing me and like, dang man, you did it. You know, like I picked up a, I guess a skill that I didn't expect to have, which is cutting hair.
Brian:Nice. Yeah, I've been cutting hair for like three years now and, I like the way it feels. I like when people are like, A, can come my hair this weekend, B? And I'm like, Yeah. And they're like, Oh yeah, gotta visit.
Brian:Like, and they come back and they're all happy. Like, Oh man, yeah, they set out, you know, you know, my daughter said this or my lady said this. I'm And like, damn, that feels good. You know? Like, it made me it makes me feel good making people feel good about themselves.
Brian:So, like, I hope to one day, like, Drew as well, you know, own my own business. You know? Like, I I I wanna have a barbershop here on the reservation. You know? I wanna I want a place where our people can go and not feel so, I don't know, uncomfortable outside the res, you know?
Brian:Because it's hard, you know, like trying to get a haircut and not know what to ask for. Like, you just feel out of the, out of place at like a other, you know, barber shop in the city and like people usually buzz cut or just let their hair grow. And so like, that's what I'm looking towards. Like, I didn't do all this education for nothing. Like, didn't, I didn't put in all the work and hours and like hold a 3.8 GPA just to do nothing with it.
Brian:You know what I mean? Like, wanna I wanna leave something behind when I do leave this place, this world, you know, and and people down the way, you know, like my kids and like, oh yeah, my dad had his own business, or we still have it, you know, my son, you know, I wanna teach him how to be better than me, you know? And I hope for all the men are participating in this class, that they do great things as well, you know, because there's a lot of change in them. I know some of these guys from the streets and it's like, man, if you knew them, like, you'd be like, know, like, you wouldn't want to be around them, And you to see the progress that they've made this far, it's cool. It's a great feeling seeing others change.
Brian:It's a great feeling seeing the progress that they've made personally, their personal growth, you know, taking care of what they need to take care of, understanding that that this this is something that can can be, like, in the long run, know, like two years, three years from now, like, we can all meet up again and do something like this. You know? Let's find out where everybody's at in life and be able to share our stories, like, we came from and what we're doing now because, I mean, I would like to definitely do something that like that, you know, like, meet up with these guys and be like, Hey, how's, how's it going? You know, let's go grab something they need. Let's go, let's just go do something, you know, like, because I have a lot of hope for people.
Brian:And there's a lot of people that have a hope for me. Yeah. So I have to, you know, pretty much stand on what I, what I'm speaking because I don't wanna be considered, you know, pretty much just someone that just doesn't stick to what he's saying, you know?
Lena:Thank you. Thank you to both of you. And we have a lot of hope for you guys and can't wait to see what the future looks like.
Brian:Mhmm. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Andrew:I want to say real quick that, everybody in this class, learning everything about you guys. Well, not everything, but something new every time we come. I appreciate everything you guys shared, everything you guys talked about, and even Nate challenging him, pushing him, getting out of his
Andrew:comfort zone. Know? Like, it's good seeing him smile. Like, and it makes me happy to see you guys happy. And to Suk, I appreciate you for doing all this for us.
Andrew:I've already expressed my gratitude last time, but I really wanna say thank you again. Like, I know you said you're not doing it for the credit. You're not doing it for the reasons people may think. You're doing it because you actually care about us. Just hearing your stories and everything you talk about, me personally gave me inspiration and believing in myself and finding that hope again.
Andrew:So I just want to say thank you for everything, from every single word you spoke to every second of your time you gave us. And thank you, Nicolette, for all the classes you try to provide for us and everything you try to do on our behalf for being the voice behind the closed doors for us. And that really, really means a lot. I just want to say thank you guys. Thank you guys for coming out here and hearing our side.
Andrew:Really appreciate it.
Brian:Yeah. I'd like to as well, you know, show some gratitude and and and say thank you, you know? Personally, you guys, you know, helped in ways that I didn't think this writing stuff would help. You know, I thought it was gonna be some Shakespeare stuff, and we were gonna be reading out of a book or something, but it's not. It was more than that.
Brian:I learned a lot, learned a lot about I mean, Wayne Wayne is my older cousin, but I've always looked at him as my brother. And and the stuff that he went through, I some of the stuff that he spoke about, didn't know. You know? Like, I I wasn't around because I always lived in the group homes, but I was always excited to see him, you know, skate with him, tag, you know, watch watch movies. Kung Fu Hustle was, the first movie he showed me, and I just didn't stop watching it.
Brian:And, you know, Adam, you know, his experience, his his grieving has helped me as well with with what I grieved for my mother, you know, Eric as well. Like you said earlier, it was something that we shared and I didn't realize that he lost his mother too. And just being able just to speak and get what we've had built up so long and put it on paper. And now we're on a podcast. And I don't know, we just made it happen, you know?
Brian:And I appreciate it. Like Drew said, you didn't have to come down and do this. You know, it wasn't out of recognition. It wasn't like you were trying to get brownie points, you know? It was just you did it.
Brian:You kept it real with us. You shared your story with your son, and it was like, now I feel like I've known you all my whole life. You know? And I hope to to continue seeing you guys. You know?
Brian:Nicolette, you really pushed a new thing for us. You know? You've you've opened doors that haven't been opened. And four years ago, like me being here this long, like, we ain't seen none of this stuff. None of these type of classes where, you know, they're really pushing for us to change, you know, like, you know, Lena coming down and giving us this this platform, this opportunity to speak and being able to just to share something with somebody out there that may be going through what we are going through, been through.
Brian:But it's just a learning experience, and I really am grateful that that you guys gave us a voice while behind bars pretty much because it's not every day that something like this happens. It's not every day that we get this opportunity to really, you know, open up, express ourselves as men. And and for those that are after us, you know, like, I just want you guys to take this serious. Like, you know, take it serious and realize there's people out there that care. There's people out there that love you, that want greatness for you, you know?
Brian:But you gotta want it as well. Know? You gotta wanna be able to tell yourself, like, let let me get myself together, you know? You know, mentally, physically, you know, just just change yourself. You know, wake up every day and tell yourself, you know, that you love yourself.
Brian:Start taking care of yourself. Start, you know, become a better better person because that all leads to being a better parent, a a better brother, a better sister. You know? It just leads to greatness. And and, you know, I I I just wanna say thank you.
Su:k:Well, I wanna say thank you to all of you too because, everything you guys have talked about, everything you've shared, your poetry, poetry, your your writings, your experiences, they also helped me as well. And the main reason I came here was because when I first got on council, I got a letter from a couple inmates. One of them happened to be one of my old students. And I think I shared with you guys that this jail was actually built where my old school was, know, where I used to teach. I wasn't a teacher teacher, but I was a teacher's aide.
Su:k:And one of my students, you know, wrote me and then also, you know, Edgar was also in my class and I used to read poetry in there. So it's just kind of like, it's kind
Su:k:of a weird feeling knowing that what became of our school is now a jail. And now here, you know, some of my students are here. Some of them aren't alive anymore, you know, and losing my son, like you guys all talked about, you know, how it is to be a man and not be able to share those emotions, you know. Losing my son was one of the main motivators. It's like, I got to help other people, especially the men, because, you know, it is hard for, I grew up with three brothers.
Su:k:I'm the only girl. So, you know, I lost a brother, he was murdered. And I seen, you know, them go through the struggles too and go to jail and sometimes not come home. But yeah, that was my main reason is just because I feel like we need a lot of healing in this community. And I think that's what happened in this class.
Su:k:You know, it's sad that it's coming to an end, but I'll try to make it back around and hopefully some of you could be out, you know, maybe you won't be in the class because you'll be out already. But, I just want to wish all of you the best of luck, you know, and everything you do and all the choices you make. I believe in you guys, you know, and you all have a voice and it's all powerful. So keep using your voice and keep doing great things. And I also was tasked to read a poem.
Su:k:So I'll read that poem. I was told to write about all of you. Hopefully this is good enough, but, yeah, I didn't title it, but I finished it last night. I've been working on it a couple weeks now. In all the world, in all the universe, the skies, the galaxies, the unknown, I ended up here in this place I call home.
Su:k:Anakima O'odham Djewwet, the land of Mihajan. The dirt I played in is the same dirt our children and grandchildren play in. Those before us ran miles across this land traveling west to the ocean carrying prayers and hope. Hope that one day we would exist. We still carry those same prayers, blessings that have been handed down not only by our grandmother's prayers but their grandmother's and so on.
Su:k:Sitting here in this bob wired concrete building where my people are being held waiting to reenter the world, you too are hope. My brothers, I see the vision as you tell your own story, uprooting traumas to plant new seeds, drawing a line in the dirt. One direction is the past, the other the future. The past self and who you are becoming. It's okay to look back, take what you need from it.
Su:k:The lessons in this life will continue. We all have paths of our own. We each carry our own burdens, but we also carry the pain of all those who suffered before us. The scars run deep. The prayers once said in ceremony all those years ago were said for the future generations and that is us.
Su:k:We continue that prayer and hope for others to come after us. That is a circle of life. The stronger our circle, the less pain we carry alone. We can lean on one another, take turns when it gets too heavy. That is how we survive and continue to endure this world.
Su:k:Nothing is in our control but our own actions. We are part of a cycle, a cycle we choose to keep or break. Burdens get lighter. We choose who we will become. One battle after another, we are the ones still standing.
Su:k:We have no choice but to live and carry on those prayers.
Brian:Can I say something before we finish off with Drew? To the kids out there that are, you know, not even kids, to just any individuals out there that are just choosing to just live on the wrong path, you know, just take a moment to just see where you're going and realize it's not it's not worth it. I mean, it's fun. It may be fun. You know, whatever it is you're doing, you may think it's fun.
Brian:But at the end of the day, it just it's really not worth it. You know? And, you know, to the younger to the youth, just you guys need to stay in school. Listen to your parents, your mother, your dad, your grandparents, aunties, uncles, you know, your older brothers, older sisters. You know?
Brian:Like, just take care of yourself. Just learn that that places like these, you know, it's it's not for anybody. And some people start to get accustomed to it, and they think it's normal. So I just I just want you guys to just break that that cycle of just realizing that there's other things other than this place. And, yeah, with that, you know, I'll leave it to Drew to close this out with something that he wrote for us.
Andrew:Real quick. Everybody was talking about grief and trauma today a lot. Really grief and stuff. And, I just wanna say, I remember reading this one thing when I was in prison. It was kinda around the time my dad passed away.
Andrew:And it was a quote and it said, The biggest loss in life isn't death. The biggest loss is losing yourself while living. And I would like to say that because I know a lot of people in our community, even people out there, tend to throw themselves in a hole with grieving. There is no proper way to grieve. There is no right or wrong way to grieve.
Andrew:But at the same time, I would like those to understand that our grieving and that our mourning to think about What would the person you're grieving and mourning want you to do with yourself? So instead of using them as a reason or excuse to do negative things, try your best to use them as a motivation. Use them as a reason to why you wanna do something different, why you wanna accomplish the things you're trying to accomplish. Because I know for a fact that that's what they would want. But this was originally what I was gonna read, but the class wanted me to read it at the end.
Andrew:And it says, it's not titled, but to whomever this reaches, I just want you to know that you aren't alone out there because there are people in this world who know and understand what it's like to be used, abused, as well as broken by the ones you thought you could trust because I myself am one of those people who can relate to most of those things stated above. So don't think I'm just talking the talk. I really know what it's like to be surrounded by a world full of people, but yet still feel alone. I know what it's like to feel as if your back is against a wall, fighting against an army of a thousand men just because to the world you're different and misunderstood. I also know what it's like to feel as if you had to hide who you really are because the minute you show the world your true self, you'll feel like it'll cause more harm than good.
Andrew:So just to avoid that conflict and confusion, we rather try our best to avoid the world altogether. But by doing that, we are really only hurting ourselves more because there are certain things that we need from this world in order to survive. And I know it sucks to go through the things we've gone through and how it seems easier to place the blame on everyone else because none of us asked to go through what we went through. But using the victim card is only going to get you so far. Because at some point, we have to understand that even though we've endured the pain and trauma that we've endured, it's up to us to take charge of our lives so it can be how we want it to be.
Andrew:Because at the end of the day, it's our life that we are living and ain't no one else gonna live it for us. So now it's up to us to decide if we are gonna let our fears control our lives, or are we gonna overcome our fears so that we can control the way we live? And I know that it's easier said than done, but always remember that it is possible. We just have to put our mind to it as well as believe in ourselves because we are all capable of being so much more. We just all have to find what works for us and always remember as well that when we do find it, our reach will have no limits.
Andrew:Thank you.
Lena:Thank you for joining us for the final Roundtable in this special miniseries featuring the Therapeutic Writing Program at the Salt River Department of Corrections. I want to extend our heartfelt appreciation to the individuals who participated in this program Andrew Carlisle, Nathan Antone, Eric Wood, Adam Jackson, Wayne Butler, Brian Butler, and Edgar Carlisle. Your honesty, your strength, and your willingness to share your voices made this series possible. Thank you as well to Councilwoman Suk Fowaldar for creating this program and for sharing your own written piece. To Reentry Services Supervisor Nicolette Parrish for your guidance, compassion, and commitment throughout the twelve weeks, and to the DOC staff who supported this project and made space for us to record these conversations safely and respectfully.
Lena:Thank you to our production team for all the behind the scenes work that helped bring this series to life. And finally, thank you to our listeners for choosing to spend time with these stories. We hope that this series offered insight, encouraged reflection, and helped you understand the power of writing, healing, and community support. If you have questions or feedback, we welcome you to reach out at Lena's LensSRPMIC NSN dot gov. Thank you for listening.
Lena:Thank you for caring, and thank you for seeing our community through this lens. Until next time, take care.