Your guided tour of the world of growth, performance marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing.
We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, marketing, and life.
Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and have some fun talking about data-driven growth and lessons learned!
Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your
host, Ty DeGrange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance
marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing.
We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth,
marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and
have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned.
Welcome to the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I
am pumped to have George Yuba today. What's up? Hi, everybody.
Hi, Ty. How are you doing, George? I'm doing extremely well. Just excited to,
to chat with you and and your audience today. Absolutely. George
is no stranger to the affiliate marketing world. Been in business, what,
twenty two years? Pretty much. Twenty two years this October. Yep.
Yep. Nineteen at Commission Junction. Currently at Payload doing some amazing
things. And, yeah, excited to dive into it with you. So really appreciate you joining
us, and, let's jump in. What's been new? What's new in Vegas? Give us the
lowdown. What what's, how's life out there? I think everybody's talking about
two big things. Well, three, actually. The sphere and all its
cool technology and the YouTube show that's starting, you know, in
September, you know, depending on when you're listening to this. It may be in the future, maybe in the
past. But, the f one, in November,
and the and the Super Bowl and come February. So who
knows if you guys wanna stay in in Vegas? You know, I do have my house here. I am
renting it for five thousand dollars a night during those peak periods if you want. Smart
man. Smart man. Little plug. Is there a vanity code, in her
George at checkout or anything like that? It it'll be the code will be always be
testing. So Perfect. Granted just for
your users, Ty. There you go. There you go. George is always saying about
the user experience in all aspects, marketing, podcasting, and
life. So there you go. George, I know a lot of folks would be curious to learn,
how did you get into affiliate marketing in the first place? I I would like to say it
was by chance, and it totally was. I had a friend
who was, one of the salespeople at this
startup in Santa Barbara called Commission Junction, now known as
CJ, and was looking for an entry
level role. And I had been in the retail and radio
space for many years and was looking for something different, something
new. And although I didn't have, you know, the, the background
in online marketing because of my retail and my radio experience.
I had to connect with people and I had to know a product and really sell a
product, whether it's radio or retail. It's kind of the same foundation.
So coming in, I I went into CJ's customer support department and
really revitalized the whole CS, the idea of CS,
the calls, the, FAQ centers, things like that. And and
some of those changes are still being handled to this day by CJ's,
client support department, the FAQs in the help area and stuff like that. So
being on that guiding path of client support, using
my background of working with people and speaking with people has really kinda
helped set the foundation for many years after. That's awesome.
Yeah. George was when I first got into Commission Junction, I had some performance
marketing experience prior to that, which I was grateful for, but George was instrumental and one
of the many people helping me learn quickly the industry and get up to
speed on it, knowing the landscape, how to do competitive analysis, how to think
about improving a brand's health in the affiliate world. And just don't wanna
underscore, I think from my perspective, you have a very
thoughtful approach, an encyclopedic, almost encyclopedic knowledge of affiliate
marketing, and a ton of years, and a ton of reps working with great brands,
Commission Junction, now at Payload, and also a really interesting publisher,
publisher perspective, I think. Would you say that's fair? Absolutely. You know,
I part the majority of my career has been at CJ's publisher development department,
helping not only the top publishers, and you name a top publisher, I probably had them in my
portfolio at one point or another, all the way to new publishers and guiding them
along from signing up to CJ to starting to go. And it's
not just publishers, but also influencers with the content certified
program. So over time, you know, working with
clients and working with brands has just become kind of
steadfast Mhmm. In my teachings, in my learnings, and even
at Payload right now because we do have two sides of our business,
for those of the don't know. Payload is a perk center, SaaS
platform. So we have clients that use our perk technology to
power perk centers on their websites, mobile apps for their
members or users. But we also have the brands that I work with to give us the
perks to be featured in our perk database. So whether I'm talking to one
of our clients who's using our technology to power brand,
You know, I kinda teach them kinda stuff around, like, what publishers would do. You know,
they have to market their perk center. They have to get their users
educated about the opportunity. Meanwhile, working with brands and
talking to brands about optimization, recruitment, requirements to work
with us. You know, we're one of those publishers that do have requirements to work with us, and
I've worked with many of those over my career. So making the
payload pitch easier to brands and agencies and networks
has been one of my core philosophies, you could say.
Because I've been in the industry so long, I wanna make sure that when I pitch
payload, it is done in the most optimized way. Because I know what a
brand and the network and the agency needs to know and hear
Yeah. To get the approvals. I think you said something really interesting there. I think
a lot of times, affiliate, a lot of folks, I think, like to call it, like, a a
version of, like, a performance PR or a direct response PR, and then there's a lot
of relationship, communication, selling, pitching, negotiation
as part of that process, whereas a more programmatic performance marketing channel isn't going to have
that. And it's what I'm hearing from you is that you're you've
become adept over the years at being able to kind of assess the situation and and
translate a pitch and say, this is why this matters to you. I know what your pain points are
or I'm gonna listen and hear what those are. I'm I know what your needs are knowing your business model and
what you need to grow, and here's why this matters. Here's why you should
take notice or or cut out that those things that are not important. Right?
I'm one of, what, hundreds of thousands of affiliates in a in
a network. So I wanna make sure that in the little bit of time
that I have with a brand, I can communicate
our, strategy and our Yeah. Potential Yep. In
a clear, concise manner. And I hope that brands also respond back to me as
well. Brands that can't fit our requirements, like Yep. Just say
that. Yeah. Just, you know, don't string along just like, let's figure out. Can we work together?
Yep. Yes? Okay. Let's have a longer conversation to figure it all out.
But if Yep. If there's not a direct fit right now and that's fine. Like, you know, we're not
trying to build another coupon site. You know? We're trying to
be the best perk platform that we can be. Well,
it's it's curated, gated, specific to a community is what Payload's
offering. Right? Right. And it's funny. You think about it, and that's the affiliate
marketing industry as a whole as well. How so? It evolves and it
changes over time. For sure. And it's a good, kind of perfect
segue. How has affiliate changed since you started? Oh,
I mean, I we'd like to call it the wild, wild west back then,
different business models. Google was was not the number
one website in the world. You know, Yahoo was. Just it's
very interesting to think of what online marketing was back then. You know?
Back then, it was click farms and pop up factories and pop under
technology. And over time, there has been
certain key things that has forced the industry
to evolve and change. And you could pick
certain things that have happened. You know, the eBay affiliate program,
way back in the day, was the largest affiliate program out there. I was the the manager of it
at CJ for for a couple years, during the the peak period
of of eBay, and it forced publishers to be to get into
compliance. There were rules. There were guidelines for the first time ever, and
there were clear distinctions of cashback and points back, like an incentive
model versus a coupon model versus paid search versus SEO
versus email. And so that was, like, the
first big thing. Now we started because of that program, now people started to
think business models and compliance. The next big thing was
when Google did their first SEO change and even the first SEM
change where no more could there be the same URL
twenty times in in paid search ad. It was one, like, landing page URL
for every keyword. That changed how affiliates worked
in the space because Google was a main traffic source for a lot of
these publishers, a lot of these business models. The next major change then
happened over two thousand and seven, two thousand eight, two thousand nine with the mortgage
crisis and and the collapse of the economy at that point. If it
wasn't for coupon deal sites and cashback sites, many of
these brands and many of the networks probably would not be where they are today.
Coupon and deal and cashback loyalty sites saved the industry
and saved brands at that time. And content
sites, like, they did not do well. Review sites did not do well during those
those times because people were literally just looking for deals. So the
growth of that market really was spurned by that
recession that happened in late o seven through o nine. And then
over time, the addition of influencer marketing into the,
affiliate space has really brought different affiliates. But
also over time, the same affiliates are not there. You know, the the affiliates
that were big back then are not the same ones that are big now. You could look at some
companies like Honey or Capital One Shopping that are big right now. They
weren't really around ten years ago. So, you know, learning that
the affiliates, whether they're top tier, mid tier, or new, that
also evolves over time. So people can't be stuck in a
mindset of, well, site number one was in my top 10:15 years
ago, and it's not anymore. Well, of course, it's not anymore. It's
evolved. The industry has evolved. Our publishers involved. Not saying that that publisher is
bad to work with anymore. No. Of course not. Work with that publisher. But
don't think that they're gonna be in your top ten. There's gonna be other people in your top
ten. That's super interesting. It might be a nice kind of flow into
what are people getting wrong about affiliate marketing that you
we can kind of talk through, and I'd love to hear your perspective on and and maybe debunk some myths.
Absolutely. I think couple of things. This whole affiliate versus performance
marketing debate, it's the same thing. You can you can call a piece of
bread carbs, but it's it's a piece of bread. It just it is
what it is. And there's different aspects of performance or
affiliate or influencer marketing. At its core, it's the
same. So, there's a misconception. Oh, affiliate marketing is bad,
but performance marketing is good. It's the same thing. You're literally saying the same word, just a
different spelling. So I think people need to stop that
and just get to the core of its affiliate marketing. It is a
tried and true way of promoting your brand across
an online Salesforce of different business models
to get your brand in front of consumers or users. Yep. So that's, I think,
the big one offhand. Yep. A lot a lot of the other misconceptions
too. Like, every publisher is inherently bad. Like, you hear that. Or,
like Yeah. Every browser extension is horrible. No.
That's not accurate. The the people that say, oh, all coupon deal sites
steal SEO traffic, so we're not gonna work with them. Where did you get that?
Some white paper that was written by a content
person to knock out their competition ten years ago?
Like, you need to really kind of Yeah. I've seen biz I've seen business
decisions and changes be made off of
rumors, lies, innuendo, misconceptions?
Because people try to push people in front of the bus nine seconds
to Tuesday. I just made that up. I don't know. Five seconds to Mars, whatever we
wanna call it. Yeah. It just it's so It's the name of our new band.
Nine seconds to Tuesday. We'll sign an NDA for
that. But I think the big thing here is that people need to understand
the biggest misconception too is not everybody not everybody in the space
is inherently bad. And so you really need to keep your mind
open and refreshed. Yeah. Do testing. Do things
that enhance the opportunity to start a new
relationship. And I think just to interject a little, I think that, you know,
we all can see there's there's a lot of reality and
reasons why these misperceptions and concerns exist. There's where
there's smoke, there's fire in various you know, tons of fraud has existed in all
digital channels, not just affiliate. Affiliate had some gross
egregious violators as you've highlighted from your eBay experience, my eBay experience.
There's a lot of reasons why these perceptions are out there. And I
think you bring a really interesting point that you have to kind of take them as the
data comes in now. It's a very different environment than it was, heck, even six months
ago for some marketing channels and some businesses. Look at where d two c
is now versus where they were two and a half years ago. You've got all good, you know,
Allbirds, not to pick on them, but they're negative free cash flow versus some of the
other brands out there they're going up against. So the game changes a little bit,
hence the need to always be thinking about, accurate objective ways to assess an
opportunity in a partner and affiliate. Right? Absolutely. No. I'm not saying work with
every affiliate known to man, but don't pigeonhole
yourself into a misconception that could ultimately
hurt your business and hurt their business too because publishers
are dependent on advertisers working with them. Yeah.
Let's shift gears just to touch. Last time we talked, you had a really interesting comment
around percentage of brands, I think advertiser brands, that are
doing it right. In other words, they are managing their program really
diverse, really, effectively, appropriate payouts, monitoring the
tracking, all the the long list of things that you are well aware of. I
think I wanna say you had a percentage of brands that are are getting
it right, and it was much lower than probably people realize. Can you maybe
elaborate on that? Yeah. I think when we chatted about that, I said it was probably less
than three percent of the affiliate programs out there are actually managed,
like, on all cylinders firing. I think a lot of brands think they are,
but I think there's always tweaks and there's always initiatives
that need to be done. And so nobody could ever be firing on
all cylinders at all times effectively. It just it's
impossible. It's, and so I think people think they're doing a good job, and I'm not
saying they aren't. What I'm saying is that, are you looking at all the the
recruitment activation, let's say optimization? Are you looking at
compliance? Are you looking at, you know, newsletter communications? Is
all those things really at the optimal pace and cadence
and certain policies are in place. I'm gonna say no. I we could
pick a program right now, and I could probably tear it apart. You're bringing the fire,
man. This is I mean, a lot of people listening are gonna feel the heat. You're saying,
what, ninety seven percent over you are not doing a good job? Is Is that That's not what I'm saying.
Not saying they're not doing a good job. All I'm saying is that they're
not doing everything that they can. And and and some of
it could be resource. Right? If you're one person, if you're an affiliate
manager at a break One hundred percent. Right? Often the case. It's gonna be hard to
do everything at once. Right? So you may have to tag an agency
or your network to help you with some of those initiatives.
So, inherently, it's a time resource question. It's not a
am I doing something wrong question. So Totally. Yeah. So I not
saying any network, agency, or brand is doing is wrong.
All I'm saying is there could be so much more that they could be doing.
Absolutely. So maybe drilling down into maybe some categories of areas that
are kind of that George checklist of optimization. And without
giving away all the secret sauce, what are some things that are kinda like, man,
you know, for those that have the resourcing, it's not necessarily anything ill will
or, obviously, not not out of effort lack of effort. But what are some things that kind of
folks often miss? So it's a common thing that's like, man, these are just a couple areas where
you see issues or challenges that could be improved and elevated with affiliate programs.
Absolutely. So let's start with the first thing automatically is new
publishers. You should always be looking at who's applying to your
program. Why am I stuck in in a pending application for nine months? That's absolutely
ridiculous. Like, there should be, like, fines for things like
that. But There's the heat again, George. We're we're not gonna let people off the
hook today. No. And and we shouldn't we should hold ourselves accountable back
and forth across this industry. This industry can
be so much elevated if we keep each other on our toes and keep each other
to understand and learn from each other. And this is what your podcast and
and all the the white papers that are coming up. I feel like we're trying to educate the
industry more. But I think we need to have a real serious conversation with
each other. So new publisher, don't say no automatically to every new
publisher that comes in. Like, you're gonna miss who could potentially be a
top ten affiliate in three years. And, you know, in three years, they're not gonna be letting
you in at whatever CPA you're gonna pay them. They might have integration fees,
a minimum CPA. You miss that boat because you're like, I only wanna
work with, like, the five star super affiliates or whatnot. So
The timing matters of when you get in with a partner and when you get in on media.
Right? Absolutely. And especially for influencers because quite frankly, if I'm
a automotive influencer and I applied to twenty programs
and only two let me in, guess what? I'm only promoting those two programs, and I might
start getting really good at promoting them. Then six months later, auto
brand number three lets me in. I'm like, yeah. I got no time for you. They might be a
bigger brand, but I got no time for you because now I'm working with these two really well.
So it really is important for brands to really look at those application
queues, and don't be scared to partner with a new affiliate Even if they may have,
like, a requirement to work with them, test it out. You know, this this
whole always be testing concept. I love this because how can you say
no to a publisher if you really haven't tested them out? Now it might be early in their time. They
may only have a thousand users versus, like, a hundred thousand of an their competitor,
but try them out and see what's going on. See what it will take to be successful. So that's number
one. Number two, payout. These companies now with,
like, seventeen different payouts depending on the SKU or the
type of user. If you're an affiliate, I'm talking to all those brand
managers out there that are making these decisions. Put yourselves in the affiliate shoes. And I'm not just talking
about the cashback affiliates that have to figure this out. Every affiliate, it's like,
how much revenue am I gonna make from this brand? If I'm gonna partner with a brand that has
seventeen different variable commission, or am I gonna partner with a brand that
just pays me four percent on everything? Guess what I'm doing? I don't care if you're gonna pay
me zero to ten percent. I'm gonna promote the brand that I know I'm gonna make
four percent on those sales. So I think people really need to start
looking at commission structures again. I think they become overly complicated.
I think everything is about, you know, attribution percentages
and and, business models, like pay the coupon sites less than than the
cash ban sites and all this. Why are we getting overly complicated? How can you
manage that? If you're a brand new affiliate manager and you step into a program
that has all these different terms and contracts,
how are you gonna manage that? Like, I so I think we need to start looking at commission
management. Again, these this idea of overly complicating
terms based on attribution or, some type of situation
is getting out of control. Yeah. And so I think when you look at new publishers
and you're looking at the foundational thing, which is commissioning, those
two alone are, I think, being I think we could
really Mhmm. Come to the table with a better system for those two.
Yeah. I like what I love what I mean, there's those are two pretty
prime opportunities to assess, look, analyze your program, and
and kinda look to improve it, make it easier for your partners to go forth and promote
you, promote a brand, with their skin in the game. So I think it's a
great it's a great call out. I like what you said earlier about kind of raising the bar on the
industry. I think this is something that, obviously, part of the intention of this
conversation and this pod, part of the work that the PMA is doing that you and
I are involved in, Performance Marketing Association, tip of the cap, obviously, to
Tricia who's on the pod and is helping there and driving that forward.
What are some things like, how do you kind of see that that how has
that evolved? And do you feel like we're headed in a better direction as an industry for
affiliate partner influencer marketing all kind of hold into one? Like, what's the
where do you see that going? I think, you know, a a lot of that came from, you know,
the the tax issue with the Nexus. The
nexus tax laws. And that that was really the first time the end well, it's second
time the industry kinda got together. First time was around the code of conduct,
with the, back then, it wasn't browser extensions. It was full toolbars. You know, that's
that's an evolved change that has happened in the industry. And so I think
people like the PMA, people like just some of the other
industry resources that are out there. I think they're on the right path
to getting us to not a full consensus. You know? There's different
thought processes and mindsets, but there are certain things that we can all rally
behind. So, you know, I think the big one right now is FTC disclosures. That's a legal
thing from a from a country level. So that's that's a great thing to all
be on the same page together as it pertains to, you know, influencer marketing as well as now
the review sites have been added to that. So really great opportunity
there. The next big thing is the browser extensions and policies that
are around that. And, you know, there's some networks that have no policy,
and there's other networks that have extremely strict policies. And really
kinda seeing if your program really wants to to
work with those partners, but you're on, let's say, a network that has no
policy or just lets people do whatever they want, do you need to move to another network?
So in so that those publishers can be let into your program, but with
specific compliance rules, or are you gonna get a network to
completely rechange their policy? Like, what's more attributable? Like, what's
more actionable? So I I think there's certain things around, you know, browser extensions,
sub affiliate disclosure type compliance, things that is probably gonna
be the next, big things after the FTC. So I think groups
that can educate and challenge people
to do better. Ask the why. Don't do
the assumption. And that's that's a key tactic
that I think a lot of people, you know, just completely miss, and
they really shouldn't. Do you do you think it's a combination
of increasing and improving the standards that the industry
agrees to as well as kind of having a a larger, more quality group
of voices to educate? I think you could almost look at it as, like, the
senate or the Mhmm. The congress concept. I think
there's representation within the publisher base.
So, you know, whether it's the loyalty publishers getting together and chatting it
out together and then electing a representative to represent loyalty publishers,
you know, that might be something we look at is, like, you know, the perk publishers like
me. We act way differently than other coupon deal or cashback sites.
Mhmm. So does there need to be representation from the SaaS platform or
the PERC affiliates, to represent us in these? You know? There's Yeah.
What it's sad to say there's certain voices that are louder than others in this industry, and
you always hear them and see their name. And, you know, if you're sitting there in LinkedIn reading
their post and you're like, oh, no.
That's a problem because they're the ones that have that leading voice. You need to raise
your hand. You need to be like, actually, no. I have no
problem having a, you know, devil's advocate conversation.
People can devil's advocate against my thoughts and processes as well too. Yeah.
I look forward to that. But the fact is is that I feel like more publishers
and more brands should raise their hands and really have their voices heard.
I feel like industry is still being only represented by the same ten people
that's been talking about the industry for the same ten years. That's very
cool and interesting. I agree with you. I think there's not a lot of other digital marketing
ecosystems that they exist, but they're that's this one's different in
that it's very human relationship driven. It's a
small pool in my observation versus others. Take example, you
know, programmatic. Right? Like, yes, there's been consolidation and tech flown in, but,
like, in some ways, it's it's by by revenue numbers smaller even though it it
has a chance to grow and and be bigger compared to it. Then you have a
need. What you're also saying is there's a need to be have a diverse representation of
each of the business models that can drive revenue for a
brand in affiliate marketing, influencer tech, media house,
so many different slices of quality content, coupon, deal, loyalty. And
and it's just it's gotten more sophisticated, Vince. And it's like, I love your concept
of each one of those needs to have a a seat at the table
to be heard and be valued in their own way. And the one thing
that is constant in this industry is change.
And, like, affiliate marketing is the most adaptable online
marketing system you could ever do. Publishers adapt so quickly to
these changes and create new functionality, a new opportunity all
the time. If you are if you do search, display, email,
and affiliate for your company as a brand marketer, let's say,
email marketing really has not evolved that much a lot. It's just about,
like, you know, does this question mark go into a spam folder or not, basically,
or cutting, slicing your How many emojis can I put in a subject line, you know, usual
stuff? You know, the fun really comes with, like, do you split your audience AB
testing and stuff like that? But that has nothing to do with the actual email technology
itself. That's all your internal database structuring, and
your CSM and your life cycle type of environments.
Display. Yeah. There's tons of display companies, and and there's, you know,
the the the pool for the display or for the mobile display and to really
but it's really the same pool. Right? It's just different entries into
Audience pool, audience IDs. Yep. So but that
technology, it evolves and it changes, but the pool
kind of stays the same. You know? The people who always do display are always in that
pool. So, really, it's just which entry are you going to go in
from. When you look at things like, search, you know, whether
it's a social search, a paid search on the search engines, it's really what
the search engines or the social media company has available to you. Like,
you can't really change them. You're not gonna call Facebook and be like, you need to change this.
No. And you're not gonna do the same for Google either. And, you know, like you said, there's, like, eighty
percent fraud in YouTube clicks. Right? So, like, these are things
you can't change. But in affiliate marketing, you can call one
of your top affiliates. Let's say it's a coupon site. And let's say you're a big box retailer
and you're just in their home decor category. You can call and be like, hey. Can you add me to, like,
clothing and accessories? Because I'm launching that as a new category.
Exposure on the website just by asking a question. Mhmm. Like,
no other industry will give you additional exposure by asking a question, and
it's based on the people. It's based on your relationships. So, really,
this puts affiliate marketing as such a key tactic within the overall
online marketing sphere in that you could actually make real
change in affiliate. You can't you're never gonna change Google. I've made a case,
like and and, yes, Google and Facebook are are needed and warranted most in every situation.
But I made a case that with affiliate, you in some ways, it's more
defensible because you've got, let's say, a hundred partners, give or take,
that you're invested in. It's almost like the index fund of performance
marketing. You've got all of these options. You've got all of this dynamic change. You you've
got partners that are have skin in the game. They're rooting for you. You
know, if God forbid one shuts you off, you've got ninety nine others that you can work on.
Google shuts you off, you're kind of in trouble, which happens. Then it shuts you off, you're in
trouble, and it happens. So it's, it's I think it kind of lends itself
to where you want to see the industry go with this representation of a lot of these business model voices
and also kinda highlights, like, how cool and defensible and such a nice mode it is when you
built it up right with all the diverse business models that can promote you in affiliate.
Having a diverse portfolio is more important in affiliate than it is with for your stock, you know,
portfolio. Yes. Agreed. More foolproof.
Agreed. So maybe an interesting segue. You
over the years at Commission Junction and other roles, you you were representing
publishers. But a lot of times, you would interact with some of the best brands in the world.
You'd see how they are approaching strategic affiliate decisions, strategic performance
marketing decisions. We've had a lot of those great growth conversations over the years.
But but, George, maybe you can share with the audience some of the the
learnings in the in the kind of always be testing framework of what you
saw that that really, performed well. You kinda touched on some of the themes earlier, but
what were some examples of brands that just, like, really nailed it, you really were wowed
by, or are some things that maybe people can learn from from those, experiences? Yeah.
Absolutely. So I think it's for the people who understand that when you
do a test or you do an experiment Yep. You really wanna focus
on what are your key takeaways. What are you really
looking to glean from that? So one of the best examples, we had
a brand, a retail brand, that did not work with coupon deal
and with loyalty. And because they did not discount,
in in their words. And that's fair. When I got to start talking
with them alongside of their account team so it's I just didn't call them and start talking to
them. I really kind of consulted with their account teams to really partner together
on their next QBR to really present a test or an
opportunity. And what worked out great with this is the brand, although had
this, like, policy, was willing to hear the
opportunity to test. So having them be a
willing participant in the concept was fantastic.
And that's what made the the foundation of the test so successful because the
brand was like, okay. Yeah. We do have this policy, but let's listen.
Let's hear what you have to say. And we decided to just
try out one loyalty publisher and one coupon deal publisher.
And we brought them in and we we said a hundred and twenty days.
And why a hundred and twenty? We want to take out any seasonality of any
kind of peak season that it was going through, whether it was Mother's Day, Father's Day, Valentine's,
Black Friday, Cyber Monday. You give a good chance. Like, don't run a
two day test. Like, that's not gonna help anybody. Really kind of focus on those two publishers and
say, what do they need to be successful? So coupon deal publisher, they
need an offer. They need a deal. And they're, you know, there's the free shipping over a hundred
dollars, but there's no other thing that they could do because they can't discount. But
what they realized is that they could do something unique and different in that
they could give, with a purchase of a certain amount of money,
they were able to go into their promotions department and get
a free like, they were able to do a buy one something for over,
it was actually over three hundred dollars. Mhmm. And then you get, they had all these key
chains. And they were selling the keychains at one point, but they were not really
good sellers. So they had, like, I'm not gonna tell you how many, like, key chains they
had. And we didn't know about the key chains when we brought this up. We were just talking about, like, let's figure
out some type of different offers or opportunities that we could present. They
kinda realized they could almost do, like, a a BOGO, but it had nothing to do with the price.
They weren't discounting the price or the product, but they were saying if you bought this
minimum amount of money, not only do you get free shipping, but you'll also get
this this product. We also talked about buy x amount,
and then you get a gift card. So that user could then purchase
more at a later date. And they never thought about that.
They never thought that that would be what a coupon deal they thought coupon deal sites only promoted
stuff with coupon codes. We all know that's wrong. So it was just
educating the brand to let them know that that's a misconception and that we
can try to find an offer rather than a coupon. And,
same thing with the the loyalty site. They needed some you know, obviously, they needed the cashback and all
that stuff. That test was so successful because we looked at what are the
key metrics. They want to see if it brought in new customers versus existing.
They want to see if average order values could be increased
with certain, like, the the gift card or the key chain offer.
And it was so successful that now they work with coupon deal and
loyalty publishers en masse. But it was because of that one test. And
keeping that in mind, any test you do, just make sure you have an open, honest
conversation, be open to concepts, and then really
understand what are those KPIs at the end of the test to realize,
was it successful or was it not? Do we tweak it and retest, or do we
just stop the test? And that's a big concept. That's amazing.
That's super that's awesome. It sounds like the results were quite positive,
exceeded expectations, then then it kind of led them to open up more of that later
on. That's that's fantastic. And not every test I run has been successful like that, but that's
just an example of a successful one. Even if it's not successful Love it. Don't
just the fact that they actually ran the test was a win because
Of course. You know, it it it gave them an option or an opportunity to see
if there is a potential. When you're having those conversation, you've seen so
many of those negotiations happen where a brand is kind of like, I'm
not doing x y z. I'm anti this.
What have you seen that kind of, like, open the dialogue to what's
the moment in your view to to get them to say,
I'm willing to experiment and test with x y z? So a lot of the times,
it's based on specific opportunities. At the time with
that brand that I had referenced that retail brand, their biggest competitor
in the space launched an outlet category on the website. And
if you know the brands that typically don't discount, you know, they they
tend to have maybe an outlet store with, like, secondhand stuff or, like, last
season's kind of things. When their biggest competitor launched an outlet store
and let those other publishers in, that was kind of eye opening because
something in the industry was changing. The other fact is they actually had
their stock market call. Why am I blanking on those calls and what they're called? Earnings call. Earnings
call. Thank you. They had their earnings call, and they were down.
And they were saying, oh, well, it's market changes, and it's consumer
behavior changes. But was it really? So we we kind of
used those two and say, hey. Why don't we test this out?
Could we increase sales for you? Because, you know, according to your own corporate,
you're down. Yep. Yeah. Although our affiliate program, they they were still up year
over year with their existing affiliate pool. But could we help their overall
company do better if affiliate became more of the pie? Yep.
So that's kind of the concept, and then we showcase some of their competitors
who they we ask them who their competitors are. We let them ask the
questions, and then we showed them your competitors actually on this
coupon site, this cashback site, this, you know, this, Shopping
comparison app? No. It was a like a trademark plus coupon publisher.
Got it. So, you know, with this search publisher. So it was giving Mhmm. The
examples, literally screenshot examples of what they say their
competitors are doing. So it's it's we not really FOMO.
That's not what we were really going for. What we were going for is much
educate them that there's an opportunity out there, and then we could
test if they wanted to jump into that opportunity pool with
just a couple of affiliates to see if it was worth it. Love it. Alright,
Geo. We're switching gears. We're going into the fun zone, and we're going
we're going rapid fire. Okay. Most refreshing beverage of the summer
for for Geo. Lemoncello spritz at Eataly.
Woah. Okay. Ohtani, you're a baseball fan.
You're an Angels guy. Is he going is he leaving? And if so, where? I
hope that he doesn't leave. Obviously, he's out for the rest of the season, but, I hope he does not leave and
go to that other team in the city. But they that team has other issues,
their own. You can name that team, but let's not. Let's not. The
Dodgers have their own issues with their pitching staff. No comment. But, so
I'm a big sports guy guy. Like, everybody listening, like, I love my sports,
and I will always mad dog the the other teams that are not my teams.
Love. Love it. You're also well traveled. What's the bucket list
destination that you wanna add to the list? Antarctica has always been on
that list. There is a cruise I'm a big cruiser, everybody. There is a cruise that leads from
Santiago, Chile and ends in Rio de Janeiro. It's an eighteen day cruise. And if
the conditions are good, they actually do a two day stop
off of Antarctica. So you can actually say that you've been there, and that's
just one of those cruise the the cruises that I just a place in general in
this world that I would love to see before, you know, it's Yeah. It's,
certain ice shelves have have drifted off and stuff like that. Yeah. What's your
favorite trip of all time that you've taken? Oh, that is so
difficult. Maybe top three. I would say I the month before the
lockdowns in twenty twenty, I went for my best friend's
fortieth birthday party in Thailand. And that was two and a half
weeks of we did not know what the next two and a half years were going to be like.
I do I've I've done international travel, but never to Southeast Asia. And I just had
we were we spent some time in Bangkok, spent some time down in Phuket at Petang Beach,
and just it was that was an eye opening incredible trip trip
for me. We gotta go back, as Jack said, from Lost.
Oh, my Lost newsletter. That's that was a side that
was a side gig that, for those of you listening, there was an old TV show called Lost.
It ended in twenty ten, so quite quite a many years ago. And,
I used to write a newsletter because it was a complicated show. So I would summarize what happened
in the previous week and teased what was gonna happen that week. We send it out the morning of
a show airing, and I had amassed almost nineteen
thousand email addresses over time just based on word-of-mouth. Like, can
you add my friend? And there are people in the industry. Like, I had people like Aziz Ansari was
on my, like, email list. Like and I told everybody I was gonna
delete the email list so their personal email addresses would not get out. So I
actually did that rather than selling the list. But, yeah, it was kind of a that was
a kind of a fun time in my life. Great six years. I I
was an avid subscriber. I was an a big fan of the show and, it didn't
disappoint. That's for sure. What show or movie are you most excited about that's
maybe coming soon? I would say The Marvels just just because
I'm a big fan of of the Marvel series. I'd love miss Marvel and the twist that
that TV show took as it pertains to x men and and,
Captain Marvel. So, I'm also a big fan of WandaVision. So I'm really happy to see
kind of those three main characters kind of lead a movie.
Yeah. So I think that's that's the the big one to, to think
about. And, from TV standpoint, I would say I'm a big fan of
soaps. And, General Hospital, I've been watching for almost forty years. The show's been
on for sixty. And, there's some rumors that there's a character
that's been in a coma for several years is about to wake up. So I'm really
intrigued if that's gonna happen during November sweeps or not. It's it's amazing. Soaps is the
only genre that's actually lasting through this, writer's strike. So Wow.
They're writing. They're acting. So, the strike is not affecting that
genre. So it's the only genre that or the only TV and movie, really,
that's coming out with new content. So Wow. The age of soap's all over again.
Alright. Well, are they gonna get that resolved? What's what's your thought on where that's going? It's
hard because there's different things for the different groups. You know, the the the actors want certain
things. The writers need certain things, especially around AI and compensation,
around streaming. It's just a very awful
situation altogether. I do have friends that are writers, and, I do have,
some family members in the industry, and and it is really affecting their their way of
life. So, you know, my heart goes out to to them on the the picket lines, but
it's it's justified. Yeah. They do need better contracts. It sounds like
it. Maybe wrapping up here. So thinking about all the great things of GEO, the
a lot of things that are known and not known, what's what's something that, maybe people don't know about you?
That's a really good question. What do they not know about me? Some people may not
know, but I actually tried out for American Idol, season four.
Unfortunately, my voice has changed, and evolved over the last twenty years. I don't sing
like I used to, which kinda sucks. So some people don't know that. And, I
said earlier, I'm from the radio industry, and people actually don't know that,
I used to be a radio DJ in the nineteen nineties because I'm I'm old like that. But, yeah, I
used to DJ, hot AC and country radio stations.
I love that. That's so cool. What's the jam of the, of the summer or the rest
of the year that maybe, to wrap up and take us home here, George? Oh, they they Is there one in
particular that you, you like? I do like that there's this old South
African song called Makiba that has kind of exploded on the
US charts over the summer, and I love that the US audience is hearing
some, like, you know, world music, and it's it's getting
its visibility. You know, it's it's not just, that, you know, we're starting to see
J pop come into the US, and that's Japanese pop, not k pop, which is Korean
pop. So there's, a a woman by the name of, Anna Anya
who is really kind of the driving force of J pop here in the United States. So
I'm just excited for, I'm a world traveler, and I love music from around the world. So
Yeah. I'm happy that that's coming across through, like, TikTok and YouTube shorts and
really has given, an expansion to the, US radio industry of
what music hot music really can be. I love that. I would
agree completely. Love the melting pot of different different things. When you're traveling, you get exposed to
more of that, and I think, I think that's the beauty of of of our our world and our cultures,
coming together. Yeah. And next time something good is in Austin, we're gonna have to to check it out.
There's some good things coming through town and in Vegas, I believe, if not mistaken. Yeah. I mean, I'm
seeing Donny Osmond tonight in concert. So No shortage. Gotta
love it. No shortage. Awesome, George. I really appreciate you going over time and spending a
lot of time with us today talking about your awesome experience and insights and having fun
sharing your perspective. I know a lot of people listening would wanna follow you
and learn more. Where where's the best place for them to kind of find all things Geo?
Yeah. Business wise, definitely on LinkedIn. So you can find me, George Geo Yuba.
And, from the payload perspective, if everybody if anybody's interested,
if you are a a brand or an agency or network that wants to get their
their perk into our database, just email me, g o at payload, l
o d e, dot com, not l o a d. And then so you could
kinda see it right there at payload, dot com. And then if you
are a company, maybe you have an affiliate program or whatnot, and you want
to add a perk center for your users and actually be one of our clients rather
than just being a perk in our database. Would love to chat about that.
I could even look at even discounting your initial SaaS
fee. If you sign up and and actually use,
just let me know you heard me on the Always Be Testing podcast, and I could
hook you up with a a nice discount, to our SaaS feed to being one of our clients
chatting with
you as always, and have an chatting with you as always, and have an awesome rest of your day.
Alright. Bye, Kai. See you.