Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
Well, hey. Thanks for joining us again on another episode of the Core Podcast, and we're just grateful that we get to continue to dive into these topics where we get to have conversations that hopefully help you be rooted in prayer in the Bible and as you get to lead and to serve from that. That's really our joy. And so get to be joined today by the one and only pastor Tyler Parrotts, our discipleship pastor here at Chapel Point. And you have a new title, pastor Andy He is now the campus pastor at Byron Center.
Luke Bilberry:He's been leading the charge with our marriage and our families, helping resource and serve them, raising up marriage mentors. We're really excited about this new chapter as you step in as a campus pastor.
Andy Woodall:Me too.
Luke Bilberry:It's gonna be a lot of fun. Well, today we get to jump into the conversation about the doctrine of Jesus Christology, the study of Christ. And so pastor Joel, opened up the the conversation, with us, and we'll kinda come back to this idea. But, it's like we all have an understanding of who Jesus is, some of us as love and savior, redeemer. There's all these different words and ideas that we think about him, but he he was very adamant.
Luke Bilberry:It it may not be the complete picture, because there's so much, around the conversation who Jesus is because he has literally changed history from his his life, his death, his burial, and his resurrection. And so as as we get started, I I think a good, and maybe even a fun starting point for us is if Jesus is the image of the invisible God and he's the incarnate, the God in flesh, I'm curious for you guys. I'd love for you to share how have you encountered Jesus because that's something maybe we wrestle with if Jesus is God in the flesh, but how did we have an encounter with him here and now if we've not seen him or touched him. Right? And so I'm curious, how have you encountered Jesus, guys?
Tyler Perrott:Pastor Ernie, go first.
Andy Woodall:Hey, all right, love to. I think for me, I was around 10 years old, I started going to a church that was a Bible believing, Bible teaching church. First time I heard the gospel. And so God made it. My parents had just divorced a couple of years before that.
Andy Woodall:My world had been rocked. And so I'm just, I went to several different schools, that kind of thing. I was just looking for a great friend. I was looking for a friend that I didn't have to change schools, change friends, all that kind of stuff. Well, I heard the gospel and I knew what pain was, I realized I was a sinner, I knew the world was broken, and all of sudden it just made sense.
Andy Woodall:Like God just opened my eyes to that. So I think in part it's, you know, we're gonna talk about the Holy Spirit next week,
Luke Bilberry:but
Andy Woodall:really I think it was the Spirit kind of opening my eyes to this and this reality, and I was just hungry, I was just drawn to this person of Jesus that I knew I needed a savior. But even more so when I heard about him also being a friend that sits closer to a brother, and that we go from being an enemy to a friend. In my nine, 10 year old brain, I didn't get all that, but I was very attracted to the fact that I know I need a savior and if he can also be my best friend, like I'm in. So that to me was the big draw, and I was greatly helped by that. And it just, I've really pursued growing my friendship with my Savior over the years.
Andy Woodall:And I feel like sometimes I feel like it's been more of a best friend thing, Other times it's like, okay, we're good friends.
Luke Bilberry:I'll see you next year kind of thing. Know what? Yeah, hopefully more frequently with that, but
Andy Woodall:Yeah, but that's true. Yeah. And so that's just been a sweet thing. And I think there's been different times in my life that it's been more of a, okay, a recalling of man, I want, I want to refresh and rekindle that friendship and get closer. So that, that for me has been a big part of my experience with Christ as my savior.
Luke Bilberry:I'm even just reminded like, again, kind of what pastor Joel said, man, there's this understanding your soul was longing for that friend. Yeah. And Jesus and that encounter you had with him through the word and through his spirit, he met those that longing of your soul. And that's part of that view. And even how you said it, Pastor Andy, is I've been pursuing this friendship with him, and he's my savior.
Luke Bilberry:I mean, this is like it's having your cake and getting to eat it too. It's kind of maybe a silly way to say it. But I love that that that Jesus answers the prayer, that longing of our soul and every single one of us maybe has a different view. So I think that's kind of that reminder again is there's even more to that as you've continued to learn more of who Jesus is.
Andy Woodall:Definitely. And I think I would just throw into that, too. It's one of those things where there's some people where you're drawn to them, you get closer to them and it's like, I don't know, everybody's got their their faults. We all do. But some people, the closer you get to them, you're just drawn a little bit closer, a little bit closer.
Andy Woodall:And Jesus has definitely been without a doubt that friend, that person, that Savior, that Creator is just like, Wow, the more I learn, the more I'm drawn to Him. The more I'm drawn to Him, the more I learn. The more I and it's just endless more. You know, that doesn't that just keeps getting better, right? That's the experience.
Luke Bilberry:I love that.
Andy Woodall:That's The
Luke Bilberry:idea, kind of the word that's possible in mind is captivated. He's captivated you. And it's beautiful. What about you, Pastor Holler?
Andy Woodall:How have
Luke Bilberry:you encountered?
Tyler Perrott:I think something to just go off what you said there was even whenever you started and I think you reiterated it was this aspect of like the clearer the picture you have of Jesus, the deeper your discipleship will be.
Andy Woodall:So when
Tyler Perrott:we find our discipleship shallow, it's often because our vision or version of Jesus is not deep enough or clear enough. Yeah, I agree. And I think that that's something we're really like over the course of time, like that's something that grows. I think for me, whenever I would go, man, what's one of the most pivotal moments whenever I clearly encountered Jesus would have been whenever I was 16 years old. I was I went on a mission trip to Philadelphia, and I would say that mission trip kind of just changed the course trajectory of my life.
Tyler Perrott:There's a lot underneath that that we could get into at a different time. But part of that posture was I was an arrogant 16 year old who thought I was like, I know all the Bible answers and I'm good to go. I'm just going to do this because I don't even know why I was actually on that trip. One of the prayers that I prayed at the before we left was, well, God, if you have anything to show me, I guess go ahead, which that's a terrible prayer to pray, but a very arrogant prayer whenever you're 16. But what happened is in that moment is I knew all the church answers.
Tyler Perrott:Was there Sunday and Wednesday. I did all the religious things. But what happens? I encountered Jesus on that trip whenever we were forced, asked to serve people who were homeless, less fortunate, maybe had disabilities, people that were of different stature than I was. And what happened was is I think that that verse came to life where it is like, whatever you do to the least of these you've done for me that I encountered a real Jesus through real people in the midst of going, Oh, wow, God has changed me.
Tyler Perrott:Jesus has changed me in the midst of this and totally just just transformed my heart, transformed. Oh, I made everything connect. I guess never encountered Jesus like all these things I knew to be true. I'd heard to be true. It became real in my life.
Tyler Perrott:It was true to reality for me. And I think that for me just shaped the trajectory of my life. I would not be in ministry with a way that I encountered Jesus on that trip. It was so pitiful to my to my life and where I was headed.
Luke Bilberry:Well, and even that, like thinking about that scripture, it's the King James version that says, whatever you've done unto the least of these, you've actually done unto me. Yeah. You know, and so even that this depth of who Jesus is continues to grow because now it's involving how we treat one another and how it's lived out in our day to day life. And there's so much that goes into who Jesus is and that I want to come back to something that you just said a second ago, Pastor Tyler, is that your discipleship, if it's shallow, it's because what I heard you say is your view of Jesus is shallow or your view of Jesus is limited in its understanding. I'd love for you to unpack a little bit more on that one because I think this is where, again, where where Pastor Joel was leading us is to say, man, your understanding that is longing for friendship in Jesus and your understanding of your arrogance and in Jesus encountering you and that to humble you, because Jesus is the humble servant.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And calling you into that and and all of our different views encounters. We want to continue to broaden our understanding and get to know him more from that. But I'd love for you to kind of maybe unpack that thought a little bit more.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah, I just think whenever I recognize even in myself as much as whenever I'm leading ministry, it's this this recognition that whenever I see Jesus more clearly for who he truly is, for what he has done, for his love, for me and for us, That is the, that is the fuel that motivates all of discipleship. So whenever I find myself going, you know what? I think I'm good now. I think I've done enough. I think I've arrived.
Tyler Perrott:Isn't the, the way that I do my life good enough at this point? It's often because my vision or my version of Jesus that I'm seeing is not the full or complete picture of who he is and it's been shallowed out. And because of that, my faith has also shallowed out with it. And I think that that's just so I think whenever we begin to recognize that that that is a huge aspect for us, so we have to see Jesus clearly because whenever you see him clearly, I think you even see this throughout scripture, whenever people realize who Jesus is and what he's done, it changes the trajectory of their life. And so if our lives are not living in this constant willingness to surrender obedience and not out of sacrificial duty, but out of love to go, he's done all of this for me.
Tyler Perrott:Don't you see who he is? Of course, my life should be lived this way. I think we have to be able to recognize, well, am I clearly seeing who Jesus actually is or do I have a lesser version of him that's often just more comfortable to what I want to do in
Luke Bilberry:my own life? Yeah. Yeah. It's like my head is just like currently just like just flooded with with stories and scripture where people misunderstood who Jesus is. Right.
Luke Bilberry:And they understood what he was here to do. And as I'm like running my running that back in my mind, I'm thinking about John four and the woman at the well. Right. Her understanding of a religious Jewish man and the conversations that are happening. I'm thinking about his encounter with the Pharisees and even what people were the the moment he rode into Jerusalem for the last time on the donkey, the people were looking for something different.
Luke Bilberry:And when we begin to co op who Jesus is for our agenda and try to put him in our frame, that's where it seems like things really go awry, whether it's an maybe I'm gonna ruffle some feathers in this moment. If we try to put Jesus in and he's trying to give a a rubber stamp on our political right persuasions or our political left persuasions, we're probably going to get Jesus wrong. Would that be maybe a fair thought to put on the table for us to think through about Jesus?
Andy Woodall:I think so. I think anytime we put Jesus in a limitation or limited perspective, or sometimes we say put him in a box. But we're putting him in our parameters or within our grid of understanding. We're limiting him. We're in trouble and we're going against the one true God and who he says he is.
Andy Woodall:And there's just such a big view of God, God the Son, that we need to make sure we're grasping based on scripture, not just based on what we have to give. I think one of the things I would throw in the mix when I, One of the reasons why I went on to seminary is because I was drawn to better understand the Old Testament. So learning about the Old Testament, the more I said the Old Testament, the more I'm like, Jesus is everywhere in the Old Testament. Like, it's just this foretelling of here's what has come and here he is, and here's what we're longing for. And the Messiah is coming, the Messiah is coming, who is He?
Andy Woodall:And so I think one of the passages that was most helpful to me that fits into this discussion is Deuteronomy 16 through 18. Those chapters outline judge, prophet, priest, king. So basically, it's the second law that Moses was giving saying, Hey, we're going to this promised land. Here's what God's outlining for us. They didn't even have a king at the time, right?
Andy Woodall:Other nations did, but they didn't. But he's outlining, Okay, this is what you're going to need. This is what the job is going to be. This is what the position will be. This is the requirements and what they do.
Andy Woodall:So, judge, prophet, priest, king. And so then as you see it, they have judges, prophets, priests, kings all throughout the Old Testament. Well, we see some do it well and some don't. None of them cross over into all four of those roles, and they all fail. I mean, there's some that are better than others.
Andy Woodall:Let's face it. David's a man after God's own heart. You have some that are known as being good kings, some bad. Some judges good, some bad. You have very few characters that function in a couple of those roles.
Andy Woodall:They weren't, you know, Melchizedek being one of them, priest king. Very rare. And then you have some that wrongly had a role and tried to take on another role, a king and tried to step into the priest role.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, that's the one that usually like, and you see in the Old Testament when Saul steps in and tries to offer a sacrifice or when, you know, when other kings stepped in and they tried to offer this father.
Andy Woodall:It doesn't go well.
Luke Bilberry:It doesn't go well.
Andy Woodall:No. And so then you just have And then you have this four hundred year period of silence where everybody's like, okay, there's no prophet, priest, king, judge, is God, where is God? And they're just longing for the Messiah. Where is this foretold person who's going to make all the wrongs right and is gonna do all this? And Jesus shows up and He's showing them in every way that He's prophet, priest, king.
Andy Woodall:We don't talk a lot about the judge part, but that's in there.
Luke Bilberry:It's awesome.
Andy Woodall:Mean, and here it is. It's like, you can't get any better than this. Here He is. He accomplishes all of it, not just part of it, but all of it. It's just amazing.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, that's a beautiful thought. Are you going to process that? You know, like when we begin to try to co op Jesus into our into our thinking, Tyler, how would you lead us to think well about that?
Tyler Perrott:Yeah, I think it's I think there's a level of like if I'm just thinking like on a real practical level, I think there's an aspect to go like, are we evaluating our own assumptions that we're bringing to the table about who Jesus is and what he should be doing? And are they based on scripture and who Jesus says he is? Or are they just based on what we would prefer him to be? Right. Whenever I think about all throughout the gospels, the misnomer is that they all wanted Jesus to do certain things or they expected Jesus to come in a certain way.
Tyler Perrott:And often I think we can have those same similar presuppositions that we bring to Jesus to go, hey, this is exactly how you should operate or this is who you should be for me. Or this is exactly if I follow you, this is how my life should go. Like any of those aspects can be things that whether we recognize it or not, can be things that we bring maybe even in the background or the foreground of our approach to Christ to be able to say, oh, if I follow Jesus, then these things are going to be guaranteed to happen for me. And I think we have to be willing to to check that and to recognize that that Jesus, I feel like as you read throughout the gospels, whenever he says, Hey, if you want to be my disciple, here's here's what you have to do. You have to pick up your cross and follow me.
Tyler Perrott:You better count the cost because it's going to be costly. Be weary if everyone speaks well of you. There's a whole lot that Jesus is going. He's not trying to hide things behind the veil of going, hey, these are the terms and conditions that that you're going to have to believe in to to follow me. He's very upfront to be able to say there's going to be challenge if you step in and be my disciple, but it's going to be worth it.
Tyler Perrott:It's going to be good and it's going to be you're going to be follow the savior of the world.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so, man, just to double down on that, that idea is if we actually get probably if everyone around the world close their eyes and we imagine and try to picture who Jesus is, he probably looks and sounds a whole lot like us. But what you said in this and in that moment is, do we look at the scriptures and do we find who Jesus is here and who he says he is through his word? And in doing so, do we then allow our lives to be shaped and molded and formed by that? And in doing so, that's that invitation to discipleship, right?
Luke Bilberry:Jesus comes to the disciples and says, come and follow me. And he begins to shape and lead them into a life that they probably never imagined. A majority of them ending in death and martyrdom. Right? And so that's that invitation is it doesn't make sense.
Luke Bilberry:But in doing so, we find the true life that we're meant to live because we found the true life and his name is Jesus.
Tyler Perrott:And I think like a real practical example for me right now would be I've been going through a book called With Christ in the School of Prayer, which is all about Jesus's lessons on prayer. And I'm often reminded of going, don't pray often in the faith that Jesus modeled for us. And I go, He's not wrong. I'm wrong. Like, I have to be able to be willing to evaluate even my own posture that I'm approaching prayer and to go, I need to even reevaluate my assumptions that I've brought forth over just decades of being in church and just my maybe sinful tendencies to be able to go.
Tyler Perrott:I need to reevaluate my own prayer posture and how I'm approaching prayer because I want to be modeled more like Jesus does it than maybe what's comfortable or familiar or maybe even just natural to me.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Well, I'd I'd love for us to kinda maybe shift gears a little bit since we were kind of coming to the idea that we want the scriptures to shape our understanding of who Jesus is, and we've talked around it. And then you highlighted a really big thing that we even talked about on Sunday that the idea of prophet, priest, king, this idea of of who Jesus is as categories for us to understand his work. I'd love for us to think about some scriptures. What are some of the scriptures when you think that describe Jesus, pastor Andy?
Luke Bilberry:Like, what's one that you immediately go And I'd love for us maybe to read and kind of walk through some of that stuff. So what's I'll let you throw one out when you think about how scripture reveals Jesus.
Andy Woodall:Yeah. I immediately think of Colossians one and Philippians two. I'll go to Colossians one because Colossians is just kind of one of my favorite just talks about Christ being supreme and Him ruling over every part of our life. That's part of what Pastor Joel hit on Sunday morning too, that idea of His governance or Him having authority over our lives. And so if I start, I mean, there's a lot of great places to start here.
Andy Woodall:I'm just going to start in verse 15. It says, talking of Jesus, it says, He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For everything was created by Him, and in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church.
Andy Woodall:He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything. I just love that.
Luke Bilberry:It's so beautiful and poetic in how it describes it, but yet it is so vast and like, how am I even supposed to approach thinking about this? Yeah.
Andy Woodall:And that comment in there, that verse in there of just being told about Jesus that he all things hold together in him. I think that's part of what just gets me is to realize like, wow, like every bit of creation. So that helps us to understand, like, when we go back to creation too, it wasn't just, oh, the Father created all things, and then the Holy Spirit is there hovering over and very much a part of it. Where's Jesus? Well, we're told later on, hey, He's very much just as involved and He's holding everything together.
Andy Woodall:All things are resting in Him and He's a part of being involved in creation. So I love that.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, the idea of Genesis one, John one and Colossians one, there's this, you know, like the ones chapters, if you will. That's helpful. He'll paint this like picture of creation that we see that Trinitarian work, we've talked about, that that's such a powerful part of the story. And maybe even Tyler, we can kind of riff on this for a minute. I love it says that he's the image of the invisible God.
Luke Bilberry:So God, the father, God, the Trinitarian, God, the spirit. There's this idea. There's this invisible nature. There's this maybe if I would use the word supernatural, this thing that we can't fully comprehend here now. But Jesus brings it into great clarity.
Luke Bilberry:It's like it's like a picture out of focus. All of a sudden, it's like, boom. Boom. There it is. It's in full clarity.
Luke Bilberry:This is this is who God is, and we see it in flesh and blood. Right. And then we have this. I want you to wrestle with this. It says he's the firstborn of all creation.
Luke Bilberry:Does that undercut what we just talked about in Trinity? Because just help me help me there, Pastor Tyler.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. And I think it's unique here for that. And I just think of Colossians one nineteen there for a second versus for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. So there's a level that it kind of bookends these aspects of being able to see this moment of going that we get to see the fullness, the the full picture of who God is in the person of Jesus Christ. And I think that that is such a a powerful thing that maybe we don't spend enough time truly like reckon like even like reconciling our own mind to be able to say, you want to know what God looks like.
Tyler Perrott:He is Jesus Christ. Yeah. You get to see the fullness of God and who he is. And so whenever you look to the life of Jesus, you're getting to see the fullness of God's character in nature. And so I think that's just as beautiful aspect and picture of the Trinity in this moment because we can't escape.
Tyler Perrott:We can't escape scripture. We can't escape the Trinity because they always come back to this moment of being able to reconcile that these things always work together, that that Jesus is a part of this Trinity. It's just this beautiful aspect that we get to see and have this moment to stop and go. He this is who Christ is. But it's also this greater representation of who God is in his entirety.
Tyler Perrott:And that is just such a wonderful picture that we get to see in Colossians.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so kind of pulls into this idea if he's the the image of the visible God and he's the first one of all creation, it does what the language is not doing there, it's not removing him from the Trinity as something other than because if you you do this, then you actually break down what you said a couple weeks back. The to be Trinitarian is to be Christian, to be anything other than to understand this mystery that Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist in one essence and three distinct persons, right? Three distinct avenues that they exist. This is mysterious, but it makes us Christian.
Tyler Perrott:Makes us it's yet it's the beautiful mystery of God, right? That we I think we've said it multiple times throughout the throughout the weeks has been this aspect of we have this picture of scripture that we get to see how God is revealed to us, but also God is still beyond our capacity of understanding him in his full ness. And we have to live in that mystery to be able to say, oh, now that that Christ has been fully revealed, we do have a greater picture of who God is. But it's also this level of still holding to this this mystery of this relationship that is the the triune God. And that's something that is unique for us to also live in that tension with.
Tyler Perrott:So we understand in part, we don't understand in full or its entirety.
Luke Bilberry:Right. And that's where we still see like image. That's where the begotten God and the firstborn of all creation. It's what it comes back to what you said earlier and even with this whole passage, it's the preeminence that He would be first among all creation, right? That He is the head of the body, the people of God that He's actively I'd at work love for us to maybe just kind of wrestle in there.
Luke Bilberry:Are there any other thoughts you guys see in this passage that you think would be worthwhile for our church to discuss, you know, whether these invisible rulers, stones, dominions, you know, talk a little bit about creation, holding on. Is there any more nuance or fun things you guys want to highlight there?
Tyler Perrott:Can I can I go that I think like a slight adjacent here that I think has been unique for me in first Corinthians 10? And so it says it's this aspect where like Paul is speaking and he says, and all speaking about the Old Testament saints drink from the same spiritual drink for they drink from the spiritual rock that followed them. And the rock was Christ. And it's his aspect of like recognizing at the time of what you said earlier, Pastor Andy, this this reminder that like Christ has always been sustaining his people. Like, I think that this is beautiful, like illustration and visual for us to be reminded of that that that Christ has been sustaining his people even in the wilderness.
Tyler Perrott:And that's something that I think just blows my paradigm on some levels to be able to say, well, God just like God came in the water to come out. Oh, but that was Christ in the midst of that. It's just such a beautiful thing for us to, I think, have to maybe wonder at and be able to go, wow, look at look at the preeminence of Christ. Look at how he is above all.
Luke Bilberry:When it's it's like you said earlier that that Jesus has been speaking from the very like, we've seen him throughout the Old Testament all the way to the very beginning. Is it is it the Bible project that says, like, the scriptures tell one unified story of Jesus that that point to everything about who he is. And it even reminds me a little bit, Tim Keller has a pretty famous sermon and where he would talk about Jesus is the true and better. And he would say, like one of the lines, Jesus is the true and better Adam who passed the test in the garden, a much tougher garden whose obedience is imputed to us, where we as people fall short and obeying what God has called us to, Jesus succeeds. He goes on to say, Jesus is the true and better able, who though innocently slain has blood that Christ that cries out not for condemnation, but for but for our acquittal.
Luke Bilberry:And so there's these moments that you're calling out this rock that's in the Old Testament. There's all these word category for you to think about is to where do we see these types of Christs, whether it's Jesus as prophet, priest or king, whether it's characters in the Old Testament that are kind of foreshadowing the coming of Jesus the Christ. Would that be kind of a fair assessment from how we see Jesus Yeah, in those
Andy Woodall:and I think you find those all throughout the Old Testament. So you start with I mean, Abraham was kind of called the first prophet, if you will. And then you come into Moses and he's called that prophet, that Navi. And so then it said, Hey, you're going to be looking for another prophet like Moses. He becomes this paradigm of, Okay, he's the standard.
Andy Woodall:And then when you find Jesus, he's going to be the one that's going to be like Moses, only he's the ultimate. He's not only the prophet, priest, king, judge, but he is the word itself. And so that's just this amazing picture. But you're seeing those pictures all throughout the Old Testament of, hey, here's a Jesus like person. And it's kind of, I love the fact that you come into the New Testament, we see Jesus and pictures of Him, and then we're told, okay, now you know exactly what you're shooting for.
Andy Woodall:You know what you're supposed to be like. You've had this picture of Him and you have over 500 witnesses to talk about who He is and his life and how he lived. And then we get that privilege of being able to have additional words from some of the disciples, some of the apostles.
Tyler Perrott:And I think with that too, what's so valuable is that like we have to, I think, recognize that like Jesus is our central hermeneutic, right? Like like the person or person Jesus Christ does give the framework by which we begin to understand the rest of scripture. Right? If you remove the person work of Christ or you lessen it or dampen it, you do begin to you can end up shaping stories to just be moral fables or just to be everything's allegorical. Everything's allegorical that we have to recognize that that there is this aspect that we Jesus and the person and work of what he has done, what he is doing, what he's going to do shapes our entire understanding of Scripture.
Tyler Perrott:I think it's just so valuable for us to always be.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, we can't lose that thread. Right. There is one story being told throughout the Scriptures, and it is this centrality of Jesus in every aspect of it. I mean, like, it's kind of like it's it's actually stirring like worship and like awe and wonder right now as we're talking about it in me because isn't this where we get it wrong? Whenever we lose the focus or we lose the thread of who Jesus is, we try to make them fit our paradigms or our desires that we begin to lose out because that's what Pastor Joel was highlighting for us, that a prophet is someone who mediates the Word of God so we can know God.
Luke Bilberry:One of the functions, right? That a priest mediates access to God so that we can approach God. And the Scriptures tell us that we can though we know ourselves, if we're intellectually honest, that we are broken, we can actually boldly come before the throne of God because Jesus Christ has made a way for us. And so now no longer is our relationship with God want to be feared or in condemnation of, but we get to approach, as we talked last week, Abba, Father, right? This intimate relationship with.
Luke Bilberry:And that to me is like, like like I'm like, right. Just like
Andy Woodall:can't come in
Luke Bilberry:a lot. Like, it doesn't make sense that a God so holy and so other than because I know Luke Bilberry.
Andy Woodall:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:And yet here he is making a way, making known to me these deep mysteries that I could begin to fathom this. Just just even a little bit
Tyler Perrott:is the all the mystery, the wonder. Yeah, there's a Spurgeon quote that Charles Spurgeon quote that he talks about preaching. But I find it so valuable even to just reading scripture. And he says this, no Christ in your sermon, sir, then go home and never preach again until you have something worth preaching. And I think that's true for us in our reading of scripture.
Tyler Perrott:Whenever we're whenever we're reading through the Bible and the year, it should be stirring our affections to Jesus. Whenever I'm I'm in David right now, as I see David's life unfold, it's stirring my affections and deep ways to go, Oh, this is what David was in part, but Christ is in whole. And we have to be able to see that, recognize that and be willing to go, Oh, man, that is what scripture is designed to do. It helps us to see the fullness of who Christ is.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And I think just kind of in that in that mindset, maybe some of you, as you as you approach the scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament, maybe that's hard for you to see in there. I just wanna encourage you to step out in faith and to believe it where there's parts of scriptures and passages that are like, I don't understand how Jesus could be a part of this. I can't make sense of the wars and the there's there's some hard things to read in the Old Testament, but it is not forsaking the one true story. So we don't want to get lost that there is one story pointing to Christ in that.
Luke Bilberry:And so wrestle, live it in community. But ultimately, we keep coming back to the same theme. These doctrines that we believe, they are by faith. Right? God has revealed himself.
Luke Bilberry:And we're stepping out in faith. We do not, by any stretch of the imagination, pretend to have mastery over these subjects, because if we could, he wouldn't be God. But we're invited to continue to pursue him and let our hearts be captivated and find the more we get to know him, the more true they are, and there's even more truth to them. Yeah. So Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:So I'm kind of thinking through this a little bit. I want to I want to jump to Philippians two because I think this is another one of those passages that really highlights who Jesus is. And and one area that I know, in church history, most of the church councils usually end up having to have a conversation that they were trying to address a heresy around the person in the work of who Jesus the Christ is. Right? Yep.
Luke Bilberry:That's where most of them, everyone we believe in, God the Father, we believe in a creator, we believe, you know, in the church, but it's Jesus gets talked about a ton because this is the the crux moment, if you will, of history and understanding because it shapes and forms everything. But in Philippians two, it tells us this. I'm gonna pick up in I'm gonna pick up a verse four because I think this is beginning to reveal who our God is. If Jesus is God in the we begin to get a picture of the heart of God. And so in verse four, it says, let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interest of others, which is fascinating.
Luke Bilberry:Right? If that's God, though he is God, looks to the interest of others. Again, mind boggling. And it says, have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus. So those of you those of us who believe and follow him, those which is yours in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men and being found in human form.
Luke Bilberry:He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. And it goes on to say, even there therefore, God has exalted him has put on him the name that above that is above every other name. So as you approach this passage, how do you how do we understand this? Because, again, there is this tension that he's a fully God and fully man is is how we understand the scriptures, But we're wrestling with passages where it says he emptied himself. The Greek word kenosis, poured himself out.
Luke Bilberry:But how can he still be God? I'd love to just maybe wrestle with a few of those ideas, guys.
Tyler Perrott:Man, nice light topic here, Luke.
Luke Bilberry:Smooth segue. You're welcome.
Andy Woodall:Yeah. You're welcome. Yeah.
Tyler Perrott:I mean, I think that the if I were to give like clarity to some of this is almost this aspect of we have to we have to hold things in truth and intention. And this aspect is is like there's kind of two natures, right? He's both fully divine and fully human. And so we have to be able to recognize and acknowledge that Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine. And that maybe is a mystery to our human brains, but it's about the person of like, who is he?
Tyler Perrott:He is the eternal son of God that we have to recognize that there's this unique aspect of like, what is he both fully divine and fully human? But who is he? He is the eternal son of God. What happens and what I what you see whenever people land in heresy is they begin to ask those questions in different forms is that whenever they begin to say they change the what is he to who is he? Oh, well, if he if he is fully human, he can't be God.
Tyler Perrott:Right. So that changes who he is instead of going to recognize it. Oh, what he is. He is both fully God and fully human, that we have to recognize that those are key aspects of his nature and who he is.
Luke Bilberry:And so somehow in his grace, what I hear you saying in that that if we understand who he is, he's limiting himself. He's pouring himself out in this idea, but but his he's not forsaking. He's no longer God. So we're not moving from one essence to another essence. So kind of give kind of that deeper dive into the theology.
Luke Bilberry:He is still God, but yet he has made himself known. He's revealing God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Trinity, flesh and blood in there. But he's also modeling for us what God is like and therefore what who Jesus is like. And so we begin to see his life and in doing so, we can begin to understand who we are and how we should operate.
Andy Woodall:Yeah. And it's it's that I've heard the terminology put, and I like it very well, voluntarily set aside. So I think of you you think of a lot of different situations, so we are trying to bring it somewhat in a tangible context. You know, you see some people competing or it's the father playing with a son and the the father lets the son win. You know, the the three year old, the four year old, you're wrestling on the ground.
Andy Woodall:The the three or four year old pins the father, and he he let that happen. He could easily change that, but he voluntarily kind of gave that up for the sake of the moment and the meeting of the need of bringing joy to the sun. And so, again, we can't always bring all of those moments into anything. No illustration is going to be perfect. But when we think about some of these things, that is where we get ourselves in trouble also sometimes where we're trying to capture and say, well, at this point, 100100% doesn't equal 100% of one person.
Andy Woodall:That's bad math.
Tyler Perrott:The math doesn't work. The math's
Andy Woodall:not math. The thing I love about I'm not real great at math, but the thing I love about God's math is it doesn't it rarely works.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Andy Woodall:You know, God is God. And so you bring one man and one woman, and you have one marriage and one family unit. And then you add people and you still have one they're having kids and one family unit still. And his math you know, there's many times where he's just like, Oh, you have 30,000 men. You need 300.
Andy Woodall:300 would be enough against thousands and thousands. And the math doesn't add up. Yet God makes it work. And I think that seems to be one of the ways where we error in our own minds. Even as Christians sometimes, it's like, you know what?
Andy Woodall:If I can't make the logic work, if it doesn't, then I'm out. It just has to make logical sense. And yet there's so many other things in life that we don't do that with at all. And we just live in that world. Yeah.
Andy Woodall:You know,
Luke Bilberry:A plus B doesn't equal C, then I'm then I'm out. But that's not that again, that's putting it in our control.
Andy Woodall:Exactly.
Luke Bilberry:And I think, no,
Tyler Perrott:I think too, I think like if you go back here to Philippians two, right? What doesn't make sense? God's love doesn't make sense. Right? You see the underpinning of this whole passage is that he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped with because he's it's like this willingness to be poured out, to take on human likeness.
Tyler Perrott:Like that is what we see in the person and work of Jesus Christ, is that the whole equation doesn't make sense because God's love for his people doesn't make sense. We did not deserve it because while we're yet sinners, Christ died for us. I think that that's the that's the heart captivating aspect of this to go. This is an aspect where we get to look at Jesus and go, he is fully divine and yet fully man. And he would be willing to die for us.
Tyler Perrott:Just sinners broken and imperfect. And that is that is the type of God that we get to love, that we get to serve, that we get to worship.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Yeah, man. That's so good. So what what I'm thinking about this, maybe this might be a helpful way for us to kind of move forward. If there's another passage, feel free to call those out, and we can we can dialogue about those.
Luke Bilberry:But it may be helpful for us to think about, we've talked a lot about who he is and some of that kind of those concepts of who and what he is, that he is a 100% God, and he took on flesh. Right? He he he is wrapped in flesh and blood, and he we we're told in Hebrews, right, that we have a great high priest
Tyler Perrott:Mhmm.
Luke Bilberry:Who can sympathize. He's walked every hardship that we've ever walked. But where we've fallen short, sinned, have been little you know, have lacked in faith, he has not. Therefore, he can be the great sacrifice, the substitutionary atonement for our sins. And so he's experienced that.
Luke Bilberry:We see that in the I think the shortest Bible verse is such a beautiful picture of that, right? John eleven thirty five. He wept because his soul was grieved, because this isn't how death is not meant to be a part of the story. Right? And so he's experienced all those, the temptations, the struggles.
Luke Bilberry:Otherwise, he would not be able to be that full substitutionary atonement for us. But I'd love as we think about who and what, let's maybe talk a little about the works, the the things that he has done and think about those and maybe even back in this categorical space of prophet, priest, king. How do we see Jesus at play in the scriptures and how can we live in light of that?
Andy Woodall:Yeah. I think one of the passages that comes to my mind is just what he has done is is that category of or going to Isaiah 53 and thinking about just this outline of, yeah, it does tell you who he was, but it also lets us know just the depth of what He went through for us and being pierced for our transgressions and taking on our wounds and Him being crucified and dealing with this horrific crucifixion, all for us and to the extent to which He went. So as you're talking about Him in Hebrews, you know, in Hebrews four and Him being our sympathizing high priest to then kind of think back to Isaiah and where He's talking about all that He went through to be able to accomplish that. I find myself, usually when we have communion or Lord's table, that's usually where I'm going because that is just such a great, rich reminder of, wow, look at all that he did for me and for those who put their faith and trust in Christ alone, all that His blood accomplished for us. And so that's always just been a rich passage as we are talking about passages that are helpful to us Right.
Andy Woodall:And understand who he is and what he's done.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. He is, you know, the he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Right? That is one of that's who he is. It's also what he has done for us.
Luke Bilberry:Right? That that is one of the incredible works that he is the Messiah. Right? That that's what kind of a reminder I'm often and and maybe I say it funny because it helps me worship differently, but when I don't I don't think Jesus Christ is like first name, last name, but Jesus the Christ Yeah. That he is the Messiah, that he is the savior.
Andy Woodall:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:And I know that's a silly way, but for me, when I make that declaration with the the article the Jesus the Christ, it is that he is my savior. He is my messiah. He is the one who has borne my sins and my shame and my grief. And he has buried them in the grave. And I right here, now, don't have to live in those because he took them.
Luke Bilberry:He buried them. They're gone.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. I think I think when I go to his first Corinthians 15, starting verse 34, I delivered to you as a first importance what I also received that Christ died for our sin in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures and that he appeared to Cephas into the 12. And he continues on to able to go it like the the death is only as valuable as the resurrection. Right? Like there's an aspect that we have to recognize that we worship a resurrected savior.
Tyler Perrott:Who is alive. Like that there is as great value in the death and the sin that he took on. But without the resurrection, there is no hope that we live in resurrected hope. And so we have to, I think, constantly reminded that Jesus is alive. Right.
Tyler Perrott:He's alive. Like in that and that that we worship a risen living living savior. And that is so valuable and so essential.
Luke Bilberry:And it's I've always had this picture in my mind and you guys can, you know, tell me I'm foolish in this thinking here. But I've always imagined when I think about, you know, Philippians two tells us that he's sitting at the right hand of the father. And then Hebrews where it says that right now he's interceding on our behalf, sitting at the right hand. Do like Jesus is actively praying for us and advocating for us. Like, Father, I know Luke, I know he's a fool.
Luke Bilberry:Just keep giving him grace, keep showing up, keep giving him grace. Right? I paid for that one. God, give him some grace, he's interceding on behalf. But I imagine, like, there is a physically resurrected body with nail scars in his hands and nail scars in his feet because he he ascended into heaven.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And there's this there's that proclamation of victory. He sat down. The work is done. Right.
Luke Bilberry:And I just like that to me, again, it just stirs worship in my imagination to go, man, this isn't like just washing everything away. This isn't just like like nothing bad ever happened. But Jesus stood in the place, did the hard work, rose from the grave. And because of that, we have a victorious king that's on the throne right now, ruling, reigning. And one day, he will come back to judge the living and the dead and make everything as it should be.
Tyler Perrott:I think what's like so like and what what I've just been, like, just captured, reenu by is this moment of going and now he is building his church. Right. That there's this level of we're reminded that Christ is the head of the church and he is building his church, that his his mission now he has passed it on to us. So we get to be partners in his mission of restoration and redemption and that we have work to do. But it is work from a place of victory, not for victory, that we get to step into this to go, Hey, we have a job church like we are on mission for our resurrected risen savior.
Tyler Perrott:And I think that is just such a valuable thing to go. He's alive. And so we get to move in confidence because of that. And we get to have this aspect in and he will never leave us or forsake us. And all authority has been given to him.
Tyler Perrott:And so that is just such a valuable thing. Whenever we think about how we should be approaching our world, how we should be approaching people in conversation, how we should be heralding the good news that we've received, that should give us all the fuel in the world to be able to step into that with confidence because we serve a savior who is ruling and reigning. Yeah.
Andy Woodall:One thing I want to come back especially to a thought that you had that some people may not quite understand when you talk about and he sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. I think I think for us, we understand that. But to understand that Old Testament priest priesthood position, they never sat down.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Andy Woodall:We kinda it's kind of automatic for us. We study the Bible a lot. But I think for the average person, they're like, well, what's the big deal about that? Like, everybody has to sit down sometime. But that priest never sat down.
Andy Woodall:They were always giving sacrifice, and they didn't sit on the job, so to speak. They did their thing. They offered the sacrifice for the atonement of sins, the temporary appeasement for sins for a person and a nation. And then they were done, and they finished for the day or did whatever. But it was just an ongoing cycle of standing.
Andy Woodall:And it was laborious work. I mean, guys must have been pretty huge because they're lifting animals up there, sacrificing them,
Luke Bilberry:Doing pulling it the hard work. I mean, like, it's brutal thing offering sacrifice. Like a butcher essentially at the end of the day cutting meat and then offering that sacrifice. Brutal.
Andy Woodall:There's fire everywhere. There's all kinds of things going on. So we just don't we don't have that picture those pictures in our brain. But then for Jesus to say, Okay, He was that lamb. He became that lamb.
Andy Woodall:And then after He was raised from the dead, then He ascended into heaven, and now He sits at the right hand of the throne of God. He sits at the right hand of the throne of God. And I think the average person is like, Okay, whatever. I'm sitting. That's great.
Andy Woodall:But that shows finished work, and we can rest in that. And so I think it helps draw us in also to Him as our Savior that, man, when He invites us to rest, like He understands what that means too. I think for some of us, rest means a lot of different things.
Luke Bilberry:We just think vacation.
Andy Woodall:Yeah, vacation, whatever. But He truly understands what that is and what our soul needs when we talk about that rest and He invites us to it. And so that's just super encouraging, the fact that He has taken care of that in its fullest extent. We don't know of things that are complete.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Andy Woodall:You know, we're constantly in process, even when we feel like we get past something, we turn around and we're right back in it again. Yeah. You know, it's just ongoing. That's part of the challenge of the Christian life is like, wait a minute, I feel like I've just never a finished work until I meet Jesus in heaven. And that would be a wonderful day.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. What's the, you know, the old the old my understanding, again, I could be fully foolish in this, but the the word shalom, peace in Hebrew is is as it should be. It's not just that things are okay or things are good, but it's it's complete, a wholeness. And isn't that the prayer of that scriptures that we would be perfect and complete? Complete.
Luke Bilberry:Lacking of them. Is this is this is the prayer that James, the half brother of Jesus, would have now understood. He's like, oh, that's what he was pointing to all along.
Andy Woodall:How many times did that probably happen
Luke Bilberry:to him? Like, oh, that's what he is talking about. Okay. That makes a whole lot of sense because our understanding is James, the half brother of Jesus, he saw him in flesh and blood, but he did not believe until something he stepped out in faith and began to realize that and then ended up doing so leading the church in Jerusalem and being part of the council and then making that impact. As a way to kind of maybe wrap up our conversation, I know it's been all over the place, but I want I want to it's not in the best colors if you're watching on YouTube, but we're gonna provide a resource for you guys to help you understand the person and the work of Jesus Christ.
Luke Bilberry:And so if you're listening, make sure you go to our website, chapel-point.org and the core podcast series. There'll be some resources there. We have our pastor Joel's sermon notes and some of the slides. You'll be able to see kind of a little bit of a grid laid out about prophet, priest, king. And I think that's a helpful tool for us to be reminded of.
Luke Bilberry:Maybe even you're talking about Christ being the central hermeneutic, our understanding of the scriptures. Maybe that could be a fun exercise for you as you read a passage to go, do I see Jesus at work as prophet, the word being spoken to help me understand and hear God? Do I see Jesus as priest? How is he mediating? So like right now, my Bible reading is currently in the Psalms.
Luke Bilberry:And so there's lots of this prayer language. And so that's kind of how I'm hearing this, you know, this this priestly like language that's being spoken, and it's stirring my affections for the Lord. And maybe even a thought as you think about that, where is Jesus king in authority? And maybe that's probably a place for us to land today, fellas, is Joel was very clear. One of the things when we have a small understanding of who Jesus is, it may not be the full understanding and the great clarity that's needed.
Luke Bilberry:But he he really leaned in on this understanding of king because I think in our religious circles, prophet, priest, you know, somebody that helps us mediate relation and hear God. But that king, just like you pointed out, pastor Andy, earlier, Israel was not meant to have a king because they had the one true king, God, but they needed a prophet and they needed a priest in the Old Testament, but they didn't need a king. But that seems to still be the struggle for us today is are we allowing ourselves to be under the authority of King Jesus? And again, I say that all the time when I'm leading our church that we pray this in the name of King Jesus. And and maybe I'm saying those repetitious words because I'm needing to be reminded of those.
Luke Bilberry:But you were saying something before we started rolling a little bit, Pastor Tyler, about the idea is maybe we're obedient Mhmm. But we're not actually submitted to the king.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. Joel mentioned that in in his sermon yesterday, this aspect that we might have like maybe even unwillful obedience, but our heart posture is not taken that of surrender, that there is this aspect that, yes, there are times that we're called to do the godly till our heart catches up, but the heart does have to catch up at some point. And it's this aspect of going my obedience. Is it just because I'm supposed to or is it because I get to like, do I actually have a posture that I want? I just think about even Jesus.
Tyler Perrott:I want to do the will of the father. Do we have a desire to surrender ourselves to be able to go? I want to surrender everything I have to the Lord that I, that is the, that is the aim of my life. That that is the thing that I'm chasing after more than anything else is this desire to surrender everything. I have to say, Lord, is this of you?
Tyler Perrott:Is this what you're calling me to? Because often I feel like we can have a natural disposition to want to go, Hey, I'll do the minimum that I can. Like, what's the minimum, essentially obedience that I can rather than going, what is full surrender
Luke Bilberry:look like?
Tyler Perrott:And we we can change that full surrender to something that feels just far more comfortable to us and far more feasible rather than going, God, everything's on the table because it's all yours anyway. My family, my job, my time where I'm investing, God, it's all yours. So I'm going to be obedient to how you're calling me. And maybe it is to do what I'm currently doing, but it might be to take a bold step to move in a different direction.
Andy Woodall:Yeah. And I think, Pastor Luke, your comment in this subject, for me, when I think about the names of Jesus, when I think about the attributes of Christ, His nature, His acts, the things that He did, the things He was consistent in, and then what He accomplished on the cross. I put all those things together, and it very clearly, you just see these, Oh, that's so just like God the Father. Like, he is acting on his behalf. And then he's that's where everybody just went crazy when he said, I and the father are one.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That's yes.
Andy Woodall:Yeah. Okay. You're a heretic. Or no. Maybe you're say, you are.
Andy Woodall:Yeah. But that's a big What's the C. S.
Luke Bilberry:Lewis quote? Jesus is either a liar or a lunatic or he is lord.
Tyler Perrott:Or he
Andy Woodall:is lord.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That's plain and simple.
Andy Woodall:And that's what it comes down to, I think, for each of us. And I think as I have gotten to know my savior through those ways, understanding his names, being who he says he is, his attributes and how he lives, and then his acts and actions and the consistency of that. And I just love where he said, not my will, but my father's will. And that to me is just one of those big things of like, okay, Lord. And he carried out.
Andy Woodall:It wasn't like, okay, I want to be about the father's will, but I'm not actually going to do it. And that's where he did. And for me, that's where I want my heart posture to be like, okay, I wanna say, okay, not my will, but your will. Or kind of like as John the Baptist when he sees Jesus coming and he says, I need to decrease, You need to increase. And he just recognized.
Andy Woodall:I think that was a good point of just it was kind of a foreshadowing in a lot of ways of like what Jesus is going to say ultimately of not my will, but your will, and then he does it. He goes to the cross, and he lays down his life, and he does that. And so I hope and pray that that's going be the way I'm able to live my life until my last breath, know, being faithful. And that's what we're praying for our people.
Luke Bilberry:Well, think at the end of the day, I think that's our prayer for each and every one of you is that I mean, my honest prayer right now for you is that as you're listening to this is that you would be captivated by the person of Jesus Christ who is alive and well, who is sitting at the right hand of God the father, who is interceding on your behalf, who dearly loves you, and and ultimately who is modeling a little of what you were saying, pastor Andy. He's showing us the way that we are meant to live, and it is one that is constantly humbling ourselves, submitting ourselves, dying to ourselves, and in doing so, we get to love the people around us well. And so may you encounter the risen Lord Jesus Christ, be changed by him, and in doing so, may he use your life to help be a part of the transformation of other people's lives.
Tyler Perrott:Yep.
Luke Bilberry:So if you have any questions, if we can serve you in any way, let us know. Reach out. We're here to continue to grow and multiply, transform, follow through Jesus together.
Andy Woodall:I think one verse that comes to my mind here at the end is Colossians one twenty seven, where he just says, Christ in you, the hope of glory. Yeah. And that's just kind of a again, it's one of those things where, oh, he's at the right hand of the father. At the same time, he's he's in you. He's you.
Andy Woodall:He's in you. People who put put faith and trust in Jesus. So I just love that.
Luke Bilberry:That's it. Well, let's go.