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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13
Unknown
I'm a parent of four. I was a foster carer for ten years. I, you know, I think I think accounted for 14 children that sort of came through our home. There were moments where I was in tears in, you know, on my knees, like, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:00:14:13 - 00:00:22:11
Unknown
I don't know what to do. I'm struggling. And, you know, this is after having multiple children
00:00:22:13 - 00:00:45:00
Unknown
Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast from Baby Zone where we talk to the people working hardest to give every child the best possible start in life. We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about what children need. Well, today's guest has spent his career on a slightly different question what is it that parents need because no child grows up in isolation?
00:00:45:01 - 00:01:09:06
Unknown
They grow up in the arms of the people raising them. And those people are very often exhausted, uncertain, and doing it with almost no support at all. Matt Buttery is CEO of triple P UK and Ireland, one of the most extensively researched parenting programs in the world, used by more than 8 million families. He's also a honorary professor at the University of Birmingham and co-founded a support service for dads.
00:01:09:08 - 00:01:14:18
Unknown
He's also been on the other side of the door himself for more than ten years. He and his family foster children.
00:01:14:18 - 00:01:18:07
Unknown
Matt, thank you so much for joining us today on Best Beginnings.
00:01:18:07 - 00:01:19:11
Unknown
George, thanks for having me.
00:01:19:17 - 00:01:26:11
Unknown
So look, there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that work in education policy and understand the work that you do.
00:01:26:11 - 00:01:33:11
Unknown
But for those that haven't heard perhaps of triple B before, what is it that you and the organization is trying to achieve?
00:01:33:13 - 00:01:56:19
Unknown
all about? Parents, and we're all about trying to make sure that parents and in their parenting role, get access to the highest quality information, support and opportunities to build their skills, their knowledge, their resilience in that job that they tell us is one of the most important and the most privileged jobs that they get to do, which is raising their kids.
00:01:56:19 - 00:02:19:03
Unknown
Yeah, but it's a really hard job as well. And, you know, I know I've got three under five and it's a very difficult job. But also people don't necessarily sort of go, I need to go on a parenting class or a parenting program. So how do you, as an organization actually welcome families in welcome parents into your doors to go?
00:02:19:05 - 00:02:22:06
Unknown
We're not telling you what to do. We're we're here to support.
00:02:22:09 - 00:02:41:21
Unknown
It's a really good question. And I think ultimately, I wonder if we just go back and actually explore the underlying premise of your question, which is actually, parents are critically important of all the modifiable risk and protective factors that affect child development, the quality of the parenting that a child receives is the most.
00:02:42:02 - 00:02:52:24
Unknown
And so as you saying parenting can be full of joy, it can be full of pride, it can be full of fun, but it can also be challenging. And for some parents, it can be overwhelming.
00:02:53:05 - 00:03:10:23
Unknown
And of course, the environment that we grow, that parenting is done and that children grow up in is really important. You know, it's easier to parent in a less stressful environment where there's secure housing, where there's access to secure employment, where you've got good years education, where you've got good health services, etcetera, etcetera.
00:03:11:00 - 00:03:31:24
Unknown
But we know far too many kids in our country, far too many kids in the world, but particularly in our country, living quite varying socio economic circumstances. And they don't have equal opportunities to thrive and to, you know, to go on and achieve all that they can do.
00:03:32:01 - 00:03:34:17
Unknown
I also think, you know, parenting doesn't happen in isolation.
00:03:34:17 - 00:03:58:12
Unknown
Child rearing doesn't happen in isolation. It happens in communities. And we know that where we have communities that are supportive of the parenting role, then actually the outcomes in society are much better. You know, we get less crime, we get less anti-social behavior. We everybody benefits when we get behind parents as a society and recognize, the job that they're doing.
00:03:58:12 - 00:04:25:02
Unknown
But as we know, for so many families, they live in, in challenging financial situations, in poverty issues like family breakdown, issues like social isolation, violence, mental health in the home, whether that be child, you know, whether that be affecting your child. Would that be affecting yourself? Substance abuse, chronic health issues. You know, these are all factors that add to the stress that you've talked about.
00:04:25:03 - 00:05:00:11
Unknown
And parental stress is a really powerful indicator of, you know, child development, opportunity and wellbeing. I know in the US, the surgeon general in 2024 said that parental stress for him was the number one public health issue. So that recognition that when parents are stressed and when parents are feeling that they are struggling or that they don't feel like they have the skills, to address whatever it is that's in front of them today that actually affects kids and it can lead to dysfunctional parenting.
00:05:00:11 - 00:05:28:18
Unknown
It can lead to negative impacts on kids. So from our point of view, I guess, you know, the kind of premise behind this is parents are critically important in children's wellbeing, in children's development. And yet often as a society and even within policy, I don't think we value that role as highly as I think we should. And so, if you like, in asking the question about how do we welcome them, what do we how do we see parenting?
00:05:28:20 - 00:05:35:04
Unknown
We see parenting for a public health lens. We think that actually and I know myself, you know, I was a
00:05:35:06 - 00:05:49:19
Unknown
I'm a parent of four. I was a foster carer for ten years. I, you know, I think I think accounted for 14 children that sort of came through our home. There were moments where I was in tears in, you know, on my knees, like, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:05:49:19 - 00:05:51:15
Unknown
I don't know what to do. I'm
00:05:51:15 - 00:05:53:17
Unknown
struggling. And, you know,
00:05:53:22 - 00:05:57:01
Unknown
this is after having multiple children and, you know, that kind of resonates.
00:05:57:01 - 00:06:01:24
Unknown
Don't know what you're doing. You're surely you're the expert. And it's that sense in which actually
00:06:02:03 - 00:06:07:22
Unknown
all parents, I think, at some moment in their life will have that I'm out of my depth or I'm struggling or I need help.
00:06:07:23 - 00:06:27:22
Unknown
And maybe that's because of something short term, or maybe it's because of something chronic that's going on and all the other factors we've just talked about there. And so for us, it's about trying to think through a lens of, okay, if parenting is critically important, if the quality of parenting is critical, important, but we know it's modifiable, how do we provide a breadth of support?
00:06:27:24 - 00:06:46:21
Unknown
That means that parents can access the right amount of support at the right time, that addresses the where their child is at in terms of child development or, and, or the issues that they're also facing, because some parents will need just a light touch of support and a bit of reassurance that you're going the right way. You're doing a great job.
00:06:46:21 - 00:07:15:14
Unknown
Keep going. It's a tough, tough gig and other parents will need quite a lot of support. And so for us, what we tried to do is think about, okay, if we want to improve social, emotional, behavioral, academic outcomes in kids long term child wellbeing, we need to start to think about how do we reach as many families as possible with with parenting and family support to try and modify that that relationship positively and support that relationship positively.
00:07:15:20 - 00:07:35:02
Unknown
And so triple P is a is actually quite unique in the kind of parenting program world in that we take a public health approach. So we have different levels of intensity of program that give a kind of different level of, you know, length of program, but also different delivery formats of programs. So we have group based programs. We have 1 to 1 programs.
00:07:35:02 - 00:08:04:19
Unknown
They can be delivered remotely. We also have online programs that can be delivered by the parent themselves. Why? Because we want to reach and make this support as accessible as possible to families so that they can get the right support at the right time in the way that suits them. So it's all part of how we're welcoming parents in, because if we can make this a public health issue, if we can normalize and destigmatize parenting sport, then the stigma that sometimes associated with parenting starts to evaporate,
00:08:04:19 - 00:08:11:22
Unknown
and the kind of help seeking behaviors that parents have can be activated and driven towards high quality, evidence based stuff.
00:08:11:22 - 00:08:47:24
Unknown
So interesting what you're saying around, hey, lots of parents have different scenarios and every family is different. And behind closed doors, different situations, different scenarios. But also your program, as we said, around the global reach that you've had in the early days in Brisbane, but now going through to, you know, Bradford and Belfast and it's global, you know, and so being able to tailor some of the messages, the delivery of of it for different locations, but also the core principles presumably stand fast and are true no matter where you are in the world.
00:08:47:24 - 00:09:06:09
Unknown
Absolutely. And I think that's been the fascinating thing as we've disseminated now across more than 80 countries worldwide. And those countries vary in terms of income, you know, low and middle income countries, as well as the kind of higher income countries like the UK, the US, Australia, Canada and Europe,
00:09:06:09 - 00:09:09:24
Unknown
also in terms of the kind of cultures into which that is speaking.
00:09:09:24 - 00:09:23:24
Unknown
So obviously we live in quite individualistic cultures. We get great results in quite collectivist cultures as well. These and I think one of the reasons for that is exactly what you said at the start, or is not here to tell you how to parent. You're the expert in your child, George.
00:09:24:03 - 00:09:27:01
Unknown
We're here to say, what are your goals?
00:09:27:03 - 00:09:44:15
Unknown
What are the things that you're working on right now? And do any of these evidence based strategies, this toolbox, as it were, of evidence based strategies, help you to achieve your goals? And that might also be that I'm encouraging you and I'm giving you ways to maybe think and and manage or think and conceive of what's going on.
00:09:44:15 - 00:10:01:20
Unknown
And they're always naughty. Well, are they or is it a particular time of day or particular things? What happens just before you know what happens? Oh, actually it's always bedtimes. Okay, so let's think about bedtimes. What goes on at bedtime. So you're trying to give parents a kind of frame, as it were, to think through, but ultimately you're not telling them what to do.
00:10:01:21 - 00:10:23:12
Unknown
You're promoting their self-regulation. And we're quite explicit about that. When we train practitioners, you know, we take practitioners through, you know, we're talking about self-management, we're talking about self-efficacy, we're talking about personal agency. We're talking about problem solving. So a good triple practitioner rarely answers the question that a parent often asks, which is what should I do about they they acknowledge that.
00:10:23:12 - 00:10:38:10
Unknown
Christian. It's brilliant question. Gosh, I've heard that question quite a few times. But look, tell me a little bit more. You know, I really want to understand your question. And then, you know, from all we've looked at, George, and from these different strategies, what do you think? What do you want to have a go at and how can I help you with that.
00:10:38:15 - 00:10:58:17
Unknown
And so I think that leads to something that is can can can cut across cultures. Because ultimately, whatever your goals are, whatever your cultural goals are, whatever your family goals are is unique to you. And this is really about how do we help you to achieve those, rather than I've got a certain list of things that I want you to do.
00:10:58:21 - 00:11:17:22
Unknown
So I think and doing that in a sufficient way would be the other kind of core principle of triple P. How do we provide that support without overloading you with, you know, if you've got a question about bedtimes, how do we respond to bedtimes? Rather than say, well, look, I've got a ten week course, George, and about week eight, hopefully we'll get to bedtimes and you look at me and go, I won't be alive by then.
00:11:17:22 - 00:11:32:20
Unknown
I'm not getting any sleep, Matt. And so it's like, well, how do I respond to you where you're at? Even if, even if I, I might perceive that there's a lot of complexity in your life and, and there might be multiple things, I'm thinking, oh, gosh, you know, or you might even be saying there are multiple things. Let's start with one.
00:11:32:24 - 00:11:56:18
Unknown
Let's take a simple, approach. And because actually, if I can build your confidence, if I can give you some skills and some strategies, you might not need me to solve the other things. It might just get get you back on your feet. And being able to say, actually, I can do this. I don't have all the answers, but I can do this, and I'm I don't need to cave in and give my kids whatever they want and just be ruled by them.
00:11:56:18 - 00:12:12:14
Unknown
And, you know, whatever you want kids then kind of permissive. But also I don't have to kind of raise my voice and get in and kind of, you know, they'll shout, do what I say. I can lean in and be authoritative and have lots of nurture. I can ask lots of questions, but I can give you clear boundaries, which we know is where
00:12:12:18 - 00:12:13:06
Unknown
kids do.
00:12:13:08 - 00:12:15:08
Unknown
Yeah, because that was my question about self-regulation
00:12:15:11 - 00:12:36:11
Unknown
is that sounds nice as a sort of theory. And you know, how to, have a constructor home environment where everyone feels empowered and in control. But ultimately, are we talking about just well-behaved children, or is there something that you think is a is a more systemic change in a wider core set of beliefs that you have?
00:12:36:13 - 00:12:58:10
Unknown
I think the self-regulation aspect of triple P is really focusing on the adult as well in the first instance. So for me, self-regulation is more than taught. Children observe what their parents do for good or for ill. They will observe what their parents do and they will copy it. I've got stories I could tell you that are not for podcasts about, you know, toddlers who tell people in nurseries to f off.
00:12:58:10 - 00:13:13:02
Unknown
And oh yes, that was because my husband was using that language last night, you know, and children are very quick at copying and they're very quick at picking up what we do. So for us, it's about how do we help you feel confident? How do we help you feel that you've got the skills, and then how do we give you a framework?
00:13:13:02 - 00:13:34:16
Unknown
So, you know, you sort of talked about the kind of principles of triple P. There are five core principles of triple P. So having that kind of safe, interesting environment, giving children somewhere where they can play, giving children interesting things to do, making sure that you're removing any of those hazards and dangers from the home and that you're there's plenty to keep them busy.
00:13:34:16 - 00:13:41:06
Unknown
I think sometimes children get into what we might call misbehavior or challenging behaviors when they're bored
00:13:41:06 - 00:13:56:05
Unknown
when they've got nothing to do, you know, that often happens in the supermarket, doesn't it? I remember taking your kids to the supermarket, and, you know, you perhaps don't realize that they're not up for 45 minutes wandering around looking at stuff on shelves while they're stuck in their buggy or stuck in a stuck in the trolley.
00:13:56:06 - 00:14:17:01
Unknown
You know, age three. Maybe we need to take something for them to do or not take them. So it's that kind of, you know, safe, interesting environment, having a positive learning environment. Number two, being emotionally available to your kids, taking the opportunity of even the smallest moments. I think sometimes parents get, you know, particularly with the kind of almost we've become quite intensive in our parenting approach.
00:14:17:02 - 00:14:41:00
Unknown
You've got to give them everything and got to be there for them all the time. And, God, it's not true. It's not what the evidence says. Actually, even in brief moments, you know, a child brings you a picture or a painting that they've done, they're open or they ask you a question, they're open. Use that moment, no matter how brief, to have a conversation or to, you know, probe their language development or talk well, what's what's the blue thing in the sky or that's the sun.
00:14:41:03 - 00:15:06:18
Unknown
Why did you choose to do the sun blue? That's interesting. It's the sun blue. Oh I like the way it looked. You know, having a conversation in that moment when they're interesting. So creating a safe and interesting environment, having a positive learning environment using assertive discipline. Kids do best when they've got boundaries. And I think there's a risk sometimes in society that we misunderstand that, you know, we really do want to have strong relationship with our kids.
00:15:06:18 - 00:15:25:08
Unknown
We really do want to get into good dialog and conversation about how they're feeling and how they're doing, but also they do best where there is routine and boundary and structure and they feel safe. And I think we, you know, we encourage that. It's okay to have both, you know, be authoritative in your parenting. We want you to lean in.
00:15:25:08 - 00:15:49:14
Unknown
We want you to spend time together. We want you to have quality time. We want you to, you know, lavish praise on your kids for doing stuff when they're good. You know, when you see them doing something good. Don't we just have a cup of tea, lean in at that moment? Because if they're looking for attention and they need a bit of nurture, which, let's face it, we all do at certain points in our lives, give it to them when they're doing the thing that you want them to do, rather than them having to look for dysfunctional ways to get attention,
00:15:49:18 - 00:15:53:18
Unknown
having kind of an understanding of what might be some logical consequences to
00:15:53:19 - 00:16:13:24
Unknown
what goes on. If you're fighting and you over a toy that actually maybe you just lose the toy for a short period of time while we all sort of calm down a little bit and then let's reintroduce it now, can we we play play together a bit more constructively and nicely. So I think using assertive discipline in number four, having realistic expectations, realistic expectations of yourself, realistic expectations of your child.
00:16:13:24 - 00:16:25:02
Unknown
I've already given you one of the you know, taking a three year old to the supermarket might not be the most realistic thing for them. If they've not got anything else to do, you might be able to engage them. You know it's up to you at the end of the day, what you do.
00:16:25:08 - 00:16:31:08
Unknown
But also recognizing no one's perfect, you know, we all make mistakes and we look and learn from those mistakes.
00:16:31:08 - 00:16:50:07
Unknown
You know, teenagers will want to have more freedom and independence. So how do we give them more freedom and independence as parents? But also how do we be realistic to where we're at, to where they're at? Number five, taking care of yourself as a parent. You know, we've all been on the airplane. When the oxygen masks fall from the from the roof, what do we do?
00:16:50:09 - 00:17:13:24
Unknown
We put it on ourselves first. If we're not okay and we haven't created space for our own mental health, for rest, for, you know, recharge, for social connection, then guess what? We'll struggle more in our parenting role. So those are the kind of five core principles of triple P. And they run through all of our programs. And as you say, they are kind of cross-cultural cross country in their applicability.
00:17:13:24 - 00:17:18:06
Unknown
And they're proven. I mean, all the evidence is there, and we don't need to go into a huge detail.
00:17:18:06 - 00:17:47:12
Unknown
But obviously, you know, huge rigor has gone into examining the construction of the classes and the courses and the way that it's presented. Here's my question is, you know, as the father of an 11 month old, a three year old and a five year old, where do I find you? What's the what's the you know, if I'm if I'm in the UK right now and you mentioned obviously there's lots of different channels online within a family hub might be how is it that you reach the families, and how is it that you reach the families that really need your support?
00:17:47:14 - 00:17:58:03
Unknown
Because it's not always clear for parents what's on offer for them locally, how to navigate services. It's new to them. How do you make sure you get to those that really need your help? I
00:17:58:03 - 00:18:17:19
Unknown
think that's the challenge, and I don't think it's only a challenge for us because ultimately, you know, we we we are, if you like, purveyors of an evidence based system of programs in triple P, but we don't deliver triple P, we train, we're credit, we support the implementation of other agencies like Baby's Own, Baby's Own uses triple P and some of in some of the baby zones.
00:18:17:19 - 00:18:37:14
Unknown
So, you know, we're saying, okay, how do we scale this program so that we create reach. Well, one of the ways you scale up is you train other people to deliver it, and you empower them and equip them and support them to implement the program really effectively. So yeah, you're right. Family hubs will be a key place. Now, I think that the government is trying to rebuild an architecture around with your stuff.
00:18:37:14 - 00:18:57:22
Unknown
I think it's great. You know, yesterday we had a really exciting announcement about healthy babies. You know, the healthy babies funding is going to go across, you know, all 153 I think we are now a local authorities rather than just 75. And we we I think that was how Babies Zone got involved with triple P, wasn't it. We got commissioned by NHS England to roll out our triple P for baby program.
00:18:58:01 - 00:19:21:07
Unknown
Our programs go from kind of pre birth all the way up to age 16. And our baby program was commissioned in that space of kind of strengthening parent child relationships and addressing kind of mild to moderate mental health challenges, but also it addresses things like social connection, the adult couple and trying to strengthen those kind of early, early system, as it were, that a babies born into giving the parents the confidence.
00:19:21:09 - 00:19:40:22
Unknown
And so we we were excited to roll that out because 75 local areas and we were able to train some of your staff as a result of that. But what about the other areas, what we create a postcode lottery through that. And I think the risk of that postcode lottery is still there. I mean, so I think, you know, largely that would be a kind of key front door.
00:19:40:24 - 00:20:04:07
Unknown
But I think there are some risks, if you like, to the way right now that the government policy, if we can go there is sort of lining out, which is number one, we have to be just very realistic about the fact that much as it is exciting and much as it is positive that we are investing money into family hubs, and we often use the word sure start as a marker of this is where we want to go, or this labor government does.
00:20:04:09 - 00:20:29:02
Unknown
At the peak of your start, we were investing about 2.7 billion pounds a year into start. Now this is 15 or 20 years ago. Right now, we're putting 300 million a year into family hubs and best starting healthy babies, 10th of the amount of money. So we've got to be realistic about the the money. First of all, the second thing I think we've got to be really careful about is parental preference.
00:20:29:07 - 00:20:47:19
Unknown
So one of the interesting things and one of the places parents can find us is online, I mentioned it earlier on, about 20 years ago. We did some work with parents and we'd actually done some work on the TV on Itv1, driving mum and dad mad for those, those those of your audience who are old enough to remember that, you know, it was one of those early reality TV shows.
00:20:47:19 - 00:21:05:17
Unknown
The parents got access to triple P, and it got the kind of, you know, powerful outcomes that you would expect. We did a piece of work with Manchester University that shows even parents watching that and being given just a light workbook to go alongside it, able to derive outcomes for their own family. So we knew that mass media could work.
00:21:05:20 - 00:21:25:21
Unknown
We then started to ask parents, how do you want to get help? And even then, online was number two next to TV. Nesta did some work a couple of years ago and I think they their parental preference works. Says overwhelmingly parents want support online now. And yet at this point in time, we're still I think there's still a risk that we rebuild.
00:21:25:21 - 00:21:42:17
Unknown
Sure. Start in the kind of 20 year old model for most of us now. I mean, we've obviously had to put our phones away for the podcast today so it doesn't interfere with the. But most of us have got some sort of device in our pockets or some sort of device at home that allows us to access the internet in some way.
00:21:42:19 - 00:22:03:17
Unknown
So why don't we try and see can we deliver these programs through those kind of formats? Now, one way to do that is to go on teams and zoom and deliver them remotely. And we've obviously learned something powerful about that during Covid. And yes, we can. But is it possible to actually give this stuff to parents and put the power of positive parenting in their own hands?
00:22:03:19 - 00:22:24:10
Unknown
And through now, seven published randomized controlled trials, we've demonstrated, yeah, it is. This is kind of a high gold standard. Evidence is saying you can derive these outcomes. And actually the most recent study was what we call a non inferiority study. So you're basically you're not comparing it to like did you get triple B online or did you not.
00:22:24:13 - 00:22:45:02
Unknown
You're saying did you get triple P online or did you get ten weeks of triple P through a practitioner. And what we see is you get non inferior outcomes. So that's like okay now that doesn't mean well that's the answer then. You know I've already talked about a public health approach. I've already talked about reach I've already talked about choice I've already talked about accessibility.
00:22:45:02 - 00:23:11:05
Unknown
So for us it's just another delivery format that we can go down the road on. And I think we're really trying to encourage the government because within the best start strategy, it talked about a national digital parenting program. And I think from the parental preference work that nest has done and from work that we've been doing in other countries, including Australia, where they're the Department of Health Commission does, to roll out our suite of online parenting programs across the whole nation.
00:23:11:09 - 00:23:40:00
Unknown
In a little over three years, we have engaged 700,000 families in one of our evidence based interventions. Remember, we've I've just told you these can deliver the same sorts of outcomes as ten weeks, 1 to 1 with a triple P practitioner. So these are reaching universally, which is great, but they're able to do some quite heavy lifting as well and able to take kids out of the clinical range on on evidence based standardized measures or psychometric measures and tools.
00:23:40:00 - 00:24:04:01
Unknown
So they are empowering parents and they are delivering outcomes as just an outcome. Paper that's been published from 2000 and 250 parents that gone through that program, you get broadly similar outcomes to the randomized controlled trials. But this is real world. Now, this is not, you know, are you being incentivized to fill out whatever this is? You're just doing this because, you know, this is real world.
00:24:04:03 - 00:24:28:16
Unknown
Deloitte of just published a cost benefit analysis for us on this. They found a 7 to 1 return on investment over a four year period from this stuff. So this stuff to me, it makes more sense to be investing in positive parenting, but it also makes good fiscal sense to be investing in positive parenting, to be thinking about how do we get in early in problems, how do we make this stuff available?
00:24:28:17 - 00:24:43:24
Unknown
How do we empower as many parents as possible to access this stuff? And I think there's a bit of a risk at the moment with the kind of way that we're going with policy that we might be, we might be missing that, you know, the need to go large, the need to scale this thing up, the need to go big.
00:24:44:02 - 00:25:02:00
Unknown
I also think there's a risk around evidence base. You know, at the end of the day, we want to make sure parents get access to the highest quality support that they can get if they're going to give up their time. Why are we not giving them the best things that are available and on the market right now?
00:25:02:02 - 00:25:19:10
Unknown
And I think, you know, why why would you say that? You know, surely we know what works and surely you intuition and I'd probably push back with. Yeah, but we've had things like, you know, spare the rod and spoil the child has been a kind of, you know, common intuitive. You know, you don't need to nurture a child.
00:25:19:10 - 00:25:23:11
Unknown
You just need to discipline them. And you're like, no, that that doesn't work.
00:25:23:13 - 00:25:43:20
Unknown
even we've tried evidence based programs. I remember there was a program called Scared Straight, which was developed to try and stop young people offending. And it was one of those programs where, out of all good intentions, with a great logic model, when they evidence that it didn't work, they were taking young people into prison to try and scare them, that you don't want to go into prison.
00:25:43:22 - 00:26:04:04
Unknown
What they ended up doing was normalizing prison and them saying, actually, this is all right. There's quite a sense of community in here. Feel like there's a bit more family than I've got out there. And sending went up. So just because we we are thinking that we know what works, sometimes we don't know what works. And then obviously the final thing would be it needs to be comprehensive.
00:26:04:09 - 00:26:31:04
Unknown
And I think we run a risk that at the moment we're not thinking in a comprehensive enough way. We're thinking about bitty programs here or there. What we what we absolutely need to think about is the parent journey, which is behind the question you're asking, how do parents get to you? And one of the things we've seen in some large public health trials that we've done in the US, Australia, the Republic of Ireland, we've managed to reduce the number of kids going into care, that population level.
00:26:31:04 - 00:26:42:03
Unknown
We've managed to reduce accidents, child mental treatment related accidents that turn up at A and E through taking a public health population health approach to parenting.
00:26:42:03 - 00:27:05:04
Unknown
But what was what we know is really important is that kind of comprehensive approach that has different levels of intensity, different delivery formats is a really powerful way of reaching families. And many of those families in the study in the Republic of Ireland that on the psychometric measures that they actually filled out, would suggest they need the highest level of intensity that triple P was that was offered through triple P.
00:27:05:09 - 00:27:35:16
Unknown
At that point, they actually started off at a lower level of intensity, and they found their way through our system. So they did their toe in the water. They started with something like touch and then from there progressed into something more intensive. So for me, it's about this kind of comprehensive model that really thinks about it's not just about how we promote this stuff, it's about how we create a pathway through it for parents as well, so that they can access it at the right level of intensity that they need at this point in time.
00:27:35:22 - 00:27:41:15
Unknown
But they can also then go on and build on that knowledge rather than starting again with something different or something new.
00:27:41:19 - 00:27:54:21
Unknown
I really like the way that you do that. And I think again, from a policy perspective, and, you know, I have sympathy for those in Westminster that are trying to think about are really complex problem with finite resources.
00:27:54:21 - 00:28:15:04
Unknown
There isn't, you know, billions of pounds to spend. And he said to go right. We want best start in life family hubs across the country. But not all of them look the same. Not all of them need to be the same. You can have some that look like a baby. Don't perhaps. Or you could have some, you know, that use different types of modalities, like a triple intervention across the suite of different channels that you can reach them.
00:28:15:09 - 00:28:30:16
Unknown
I guess if you have one thing and you just said, we're a Labor Party conference earlier in the week, ear of the early years, Minister, probably actually the era of the Chancellor, what is it that you would be trying to get them to prioritize in the next three years before the next election?
00:28:30:19 - 00:28:37:07
Unknown
I think if you if you think about everything I've said, it's ultimately about reach and access.
00:28:37:09 - 00:28:55:15
Unknown
So these things work. You know, triple P is is again reasonably unique. We're one of those success stories in the prevention world. You know, we've we've been able to go to scale and prove ourselves. You know, we've then been able to sort of translate that into practice.
00:28:55:17 - 00:29:02:11
Unknown
And so I guess what you are now asking is, you know, the third p of an alternative triple P policy, how what's the policy that we need?
00:29:02:12 - 00:29:31:00
Unknown
And I think the policy has to be framed around reach accessibility. And so for me I really value practitioners based delivery. And I think it is really important. And it will never go away. We will always need good high quality practitioners. But right now we do have a limitation of workforces in the system. So to me, I would be prioritizing a digital and evidence based digital component that complements that offer so that you are creating reach and access for parents.
00:29:31:01 - 00:29:50:15
Unknown
And that might be back to my point that I made about Island earlier. That might be the stepping stone for them to say that was really interesting. That was really useful. Now I want to know more. And it might be that even that program refers them into it. Looks like you're asking some quite deep questions. You know, maybe you want to have a chat with the parent infant team locally.
00:29:50:15 - 00:30:14:21
Unknown
That's that's available in your family hub. Here's a link. You know, I mean, and so why aren't we thinking about how we use that as a both a reach and access. And therein I think there is a campaign that goes alongside it that that speaks to the value of parenting that normalizes it, but that also thinks about the kind of the imperative to, to, to engage now.
00:30:14:22 - 00:30:32:05
Unknown
I mean, in Australia, a lot of our campaign chief phenomenal reach in a country that's two and a half times smaller than England, 700,000 families, that's that's a pretty big reach, has all been based around the idea of time flies. Make every parenting moment count. You're trying to create a which all of us know and you all know.
00:30:32:05 - 00:30:45:19
Unknown
My my children are now adults, you know, and I've got I'm privileged enough to have a grandson as well. And I, I watch him and every time I see him, I'm like, let me think, how are you? How are you now at school? You know, I mean, how are you now in you. How did what how did you get so big and able?
00:30:45:24 - 00:31:05:05
Unknown
Kids are growing fast. And so trying to encourage parents just take every moment that you get with your kids lean in. You can see that kind of messaging. You probably see why that cuts through. I mean, you're smiling. It's kind of it's affirming. It's heartwarming. It's also appealing to do something today, you know, don't. Well, I'll spend a bit of time with my kids when they get older.
00:31:05:05 - 00:31:20:15
Unknown
You know, the cat and the crane or silver spoon, you know. You know, they're kind of, you know, oh, we'll spend some time together, son. You know, it's like, lean in now and it doesn't need to be huge. It doesn't need to be a lot. But that kind of quality of what you do, I
00:31:20:17 - 00:31:34:15
Unknown
it's a great reminder and it's a great message. And yeah, I had some personal questions on here and you touched on it earlier around fostering and, you know, the number of children that looked after in your home and your own children.
00:31:34:17 - 00:31:51:12
Unknown
What was it about that that led you to to the work that you're now doing? Is there a moment that sort of crystallized either academically, but also kind of from leading this organization that meant you this is kind of why you ended up having this conversation with me today,
00:31:51:14 - 00:31:52:05
Unknown
I think.
00:31:52:06 - 00:32:20:19
Unknown
Yes, very specifically, there was a little boy who came to us. He was about three years old. He'd been severely, severely neglected and been left alone for long periods of time in the flat that he lived in, you know, had most of his teeth had rotted out of his head. He was severely limited. And when he came, there was a sense in which this is 20 years plus ago, his behavior is off the scale.
00:32:20:22 - 00:32:22:16
Unknown
You know, we don't know what to do with him.
00:32:22:22 - 00:32:35:24
Unknown
And, you know, almost you had that kind of. Well, we writing this kid off. Hang on a minute. He's three. How the heck are we doing that? But, you know, the fact that his behavior was so challenging was was the message we were kind of getting. And it was serendipity.
00:32:36:00 - 00:32:55:10
Unknown
We actually tripped across triple P at the same time professionally, where we were working. And actually for us, we were like, okay, let's engage in that. We know even then we know it's one of the most evidence based programs. Were quite excited, and we started to use some of the triple P approach and the triple P strategies with this, this young man.
00:32:55:12 - 00:33:17:02
Unknown
And we watched the changes from that came about from some of the simple things that we did with him in his behavior and in his in his own ability to self-regulate and to learn to sort of calm himself down and to to we were shocked. And then I remember he he then went to an assessment unit with his mum and dad.
00:33:17:02 - 00:33:46:08
Unknown
And I remember they'd said it a number of times at contact, but there'd been this, this notion of, well, you've got some magic fairy dust, you've got a magic wand, and that's what you do. And that's why that's why he's different with you. But he's not like that with us. And for whatever reason of where the system was at at that point, we weren't able to say or to come alongside that family and say, no, we were similarly out of our depth, but we learned some strategies that you could also learn to.
00:33:46:09 - 00:34:07:10
Unknown
And honestly, we've been we're not surprised at how well it's worked and how well it's worked for him. You could do that stuff too. And it made me realize, gosh, you know, for many families, through through their own circumstances, through no blame or fault, actually, they haven't had the opportunity and they haven't seen the power of some of these simple strategies.
00:34:07:10 - 00:34:26:19
Unknown
And so for me, I think it was one of those we've got to scale this stuff, we've got to get this stuff out more widely. And I think I've had the privilege through my career of always working in that kind of research into practice. I'm originally from a biochemist and I worked in the food industry, but I've always done a kind of translating research into practice.
00:34:26:19 - 00:34:52:09
Unknown
That kind of proof point, as it were, into the practice point. And I did that for a couple of charities. And then triple P approached me and I was like, that goes back to this story that, you know, had motivated me to get involved in this sector. And I was like, practice proved point, you know, practice policy. Triple P is the biggest parenting program in the world, and it gives us the privilege and the responsibility to also lean into politicians and to say, this stuff works.
00:34:52:09 - 00:35:12:02
Unknown
This stuff's really important, but we don't have value on it. In public policy, we don't invest enough money into the sector that can deliver this stuff. How do we raise the profile? How do we help you with the economic arguments as well as with the social arguments? The proof points to ensure that you realize this can reduce neurodevelopmental waitlists.
00:35:12:02 - 00:35:32:24
Unknown
This can, you know, change lives in the early in the earliest years of and change trajectories around parental mental health. How do we show you that this can deliver not only nice stories, but actually it can do that at scale, and it can lead to fiscal savings that allow the system to to spend then on those kids that do need more help.
00:35:32:24 - 00:35:53:07
Unknown
And ultimately, it's empowering parents and uplifting parents and changing those child outcomes. I mean, yeah, it's a very profound story that. So thank you so much for sharing. I'm conscious of time. We could talk for, for, for, for a long time about the work that you're doing and have done and yeah, continue to do, I guess a couple of quick fire questions, let's say,
00:35:53:07 - 00:35:54:18
Unknown
Oh, scary. The biggest
00:35:54:21 - 00:35:57:07
Unknown
myth that you'd like to dispel about good parenting?
00:35:57:07 - 00:36:03:06
Unknown
Is there one thing that you see or hear the whole time? You go actually put that back in a box and don't know it out again?
00:36:03:06 - 00:36:10:13
Unknown
I guess there's no one right way to raise a child. You know, children are unique, families are unique. And so your way may be different to my way.
00:36:10:13 - 00:36:13:12
Unknown
And that doesn't make me right and you wrong, or you write me wrong.
00:36:13:14 - 00:36:20:22
Unknown
And is that similar? This is the best advice you've ever heard. Or the best advice that someone's given to you, or you've observed in one of the programs that you've been?
00:36:20:22 - 00:36:33:22
Unknown
You know, the best advice they've given to me was not to give me advice. And I think that is one of the profound things about triple P, that self-regulatory framework that, you know, we work really hard with practitioners to help them understand you're not here to give advice.
00:36:34:01 - 00:36:53:21
Unknown
You're here to support parents to access a bunch of evidence based strategies and tools and apply them to the goals that they've set for themselves. In a sense, you're just a partner, a conduit through which that comes. And so the best advice I've had is to not give me advice, but to actually ask me questions and work with me to help me find my own solution to the problem that I had.
00:36:53:23 - 00:37:12:09
Unknown
And I guess we spoke about some of the challenges that parents face and the difficulties both politically but also, you know, frontline delivery. What gives you optimism, what makes you feel like there's positive momentum out there? What gives you hope for early childhood in the sector?
00:37:12:13 - 00:37:22:04
Unknown
I think that we are actually at a point that we we now know parent positive parenting and the approaches that we are scaling work.
00:37:22:06 - 00:37:50:05
Unknown
I think it gives me hope that we have managed to get this far. You know, I treat us as one of the success stories of the prevention world. You know, sometimes we can feel like prevention science, it gets sidelined because we've got burning platforms actually scaled across 80 countries. That's a real success. But I guess probably the most profound thing was I remember in March, February this year, I was invited by Unicef to the WHL to their first Global caregiver forum.
00:37:50:07 - 00:38:15:07
Unknown
And I saw countries, low and middle income countries leading ministers from those countries think there were about 30 odd ministers in the room at one point, all signing up for universal access to evidence based parenting support. And that gave me hope that here we have the world committing to this, not just all, you know, nice, nice to have in high income countries, but actually globally.
00:38:15:07 - 00:38:42:19
Unknown
There's a momentum that's building around this conversation around this, this topic. And I think in our world of AI and in our world of, you know, I think, you know, some of the skills that children learn, social skills, the kind of they learn through play, I mean, even more important to them as they grow up, you know. And so I think I am heartened to see that global commitment to backing, caregiving, backing caregivers, backing parents.
00:38:42:22 - 00:38:46:19
Unknown
Brilliant. Well, that's a lovely note for us to close on. Thank you so much for your time
00:38:46:21 - 00:38:47:12
Unknown
Thanks, George.
00:38:47:16 - 00:39:08:16
Unknown
stays with me from this conversation is how much pressure we put on parents, and really, how little support they get in return. We expect them to know just how to do the hardest job that there is, often while they're tired and feeling alone. And then we're surprised when they struggle. Matt's life's work rejects that notion. Says that parents don't need judging.
00:39:08:16 - 00:39:25:21
Unknown
They need backing. There's something quite freeing in that. If parenting is a set of skills and not a talent, then every one of us can get better at it. With the right support, at the right moment and access to the right resources. That's what triple P offers millions of families and in our own way, on the ground. It's what baby's own hub,
00:39:25:21 - 00:39:27:09
Unknown
are trying to do as well.
00:39:27:09 - 00:39:46:16
Unknown
So if you remember one thing from this conversation, needing help with parenting isn't a sign that you're doing it wrong. It's one of the most sensible, loving things that you can do for your child. Nobody is meant to do this alone or just to know without further support. Matt, thank you so much for joining me today, and thank you for listening to.
00:39:46:17 - 00:39:54:00
Unknown
Best beginnings A Baby's Own podcast. For more evidence informed support on babies in the early years, subscribe to this channel.
00:39:54:00 - 00:39:57:13
Unknown
you found it helpful, please share it with someone who might need it.
00:39:57:16 - 00:39:58:16
Unknown
see you next time.
00:39:58:18 - 00:39:59:00
Unknown
We.