Explore how the social construct of race and racial oppression operates at multiple levels with a rotating focus on different social systems. Connect with Austin-area justice movement organizers and everyday people with relevant lived experience to lay out historical context, current affairs, and creative possibilities for a liberated future.
Good sunny afternoon. If you are dwelling, living, breathing in and out in Austin, Texas where I am sitting. It is beautiful, y'all. It is a beautiful day. This is Stacie Freasier.
Stacie Freasier:Pronouns are she and they, and you're listening to racism on the levels, a monthly show in the Austin Cooperative Radio Hour Collective that explores how the human made construct of race operates at the internal, interpersonal, cultural, institutional, and systemic levels with a focus on creative possibilities for a liberated future where we're all free. I am a justice movement weaver, a facilitator, a guide, a Kenyan nonviolence trainer, and a mother to the light of my life, Rumi. The show's purpose is to hold space for wisdom from other humans who are doing really beautiful light shining here in Austin with me, and, we are centering everything around love and justice and a just peace. So we're gonna, get into some things this today, but, I first have to say that the views expressed here are not necessarily those of the coop board of directors, staff, volunteers, or underwriters. We are broadcasting recording on stolen land, and I want to give, a shout out and witness those indigenous friends and siblings who are still here who have faced inconceivable losses and attempted erasure, the sauna, the humanos, the tonkawa, the kamanche, the kuilta kan and many others.
Stacie Freasier:You can find out if you're listening online on k0op.org where we're streaming, what land you are on by visiting native hyphen land dotca. And I encourage you to look that up, get involved, figure out how you can get involved in active reparations and witnessing and making it right. So before we launch into today's conversation, I have a couple of announcements that are happening here in the community. And the first one is incredibly heavy, and I'm gonna hold this and put it here in honor. Today is May 15th, and Palestinians around the world, mark this day as Nakba, which is a catastrophe referring to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the near total destruction of Palestinian society in 1948, although it began before that.
Stacie Freasier:And this is heavy, and this is this is this is reaching all of us globally right now. I know a lot of comrades that are spending every waking hour, in this, right, and and here, right, from far to see, you know, how how do we make sense of this? How do we show up in solidarity, when there's a lot of heaviness. There's a lot of charge, and it's been happening to many people, including on this soil for a very long time. So, yes, I want to hold space for that and also to say that there is a Texas wide protest on May 19th, which is gonna be happening at the Texas State Capitol at 1 PM.
Stacie Freasier:And, if you wish to show up, please do so. 76 years of ongoing NACA. So announcement number 2 is happening tomorrow, and, this message is, I'm sharing this from community powered ATX. So, the home initiative, this is home 2. It's, basically, the next phase of the home initiative, that the city council passed, and we are asking for, an equity and anti displacement overlay.
Stacie Freasier:And now is the time to speak up because the council is voting to approve that tomorrow. And so it's too late at this hour to sign up in advance to speak. However, if you, want to show up tomorrow morning in person, you can still sign up to speak to testify up to 9:15 AM in the morning. And, you could check out more information on, community powered ATX, on Instagram. Alright.
Stacie Freasier:Let's turn to this lovely human being sitting across from me who this is our first, opportunity to exchange atoms and energy, and so I'm really, really, really grateful to do so. Fatima Mann, welcome to the show.
Fatima Mann:Greetings, beautiful being. Oh, man. It's all being. It's so great to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Fatima Mann:Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to honor everything, honor the fact that you gave honor.
Fatima Mann:So I just want to say thank you. A lot of times, we don't celebrate our our wins and how we've grown and how we've learned and when we've learned. And and I always like to tell people, like, good job for learning, like, and transforming and transcending. So thank you for for for for saying those things so that other beings can can hear that. Those things can be said, and you can choose to say them out loud on purpose and with intention and love.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you. Mhmm. Definitely. That's why I say them. Someone taught me someone taught me those things, and then I took them to heart.
Stacie Freasier:And now I know them as truths, and I want others listening to do the same. And I invite them to reach out to me, and I can meet them where they're at on that path. So Fatima, tell me a little bit about you and, your Austin story, your the aspects of your identity you wish for the world to know in this moment to serve our our time together.
Fatima Mann:Cool. Well, first, I hope you all are drinking water and taking care of yourselves. I genuinely believe that we should all start there. If we are not full, then we cannot ever give anyone else something that we can't. We don't have ourselves.
Fatima Mann:So I always invite people to drink water and take care of yourself. So that's I'm an Aquarius. So my sun and my moon is an Aquarian, and my rising is a Gemini.
Stacie Freasier:Aquarius, moon, of course, rising. Virgo.
Fatima Mann:That grounding. Yeah. Why don't wear shoes? I haven't worn shoes for 9 years. So I feel like that's the universe bringing me, like, down to the earth because I had so much air.
Fatima Mann:Not wearing shoes for 9 years has actually impacted how I see things and knowing that anything is possible. Anything in the body that they call a black woman that can, like, traverse the entire world, everywhere I've gone, like, without shoes, it's it's a remarkable story and it's mine. And I it's not one that I didn't dream of, but if if me, from where I'm from, can live this life, then anything is possible. Like bills and policies that bring love and healing and, you know, human centered things can be made. People can see each other as love, and they can see that you were gonna disagree, but we can do that in a way that both of us went.
Fatima Mann:They're just a raz. And there's so many ways that we can do these things, and I generally believe that. So I used to do the nonprofit world. I was like and I mean grassroots. Like, I I yeah.
Fatima Mann:I I just organized. I I did what I was led to do. I actually did what I would want someone to do for me if I were in the same or similar situation. And I did it and I learned. I failed.
Fatima Mann:I grew. I I learned that I was, that I am healing, And I have so much trauma that I'm unpacking and unlearning, and it plays a role in how I lead and how I engage with other people. So I had to, like, step away and heal myself because I I realized that maybe the what I thought I was bringing to the world wasn't as amazing as it could be if I took some time to look at my own wounds. And I realized that a lot of, leaders don't take care of themselves. A lot of people that are, leading or, activists, lawyers, caretakers, parents, people that guide little humans tend to put everybody before themselves, which means that they're showing up at these marches tired and sleepy and hungry, which is annoyed.
Fatima Mann:Right? And so love and healing work became the business because I did the work in Austin. You you saw me at the marches. You can see my name at the city council on the logs. You can actually Google me.
Fatima Mann:Like, I didn't not because I wanted it to be easy because I was that wasn't that was what I did. I felt like when you're I was AmeriCorps Vista. And so as AmeriCorps Vista, I was taught to be a part of the town that you were in, and you used your skills and your tools to help the community that you live in. And my skills and my tools meant that I can organize and I can bring people together around a cause because that's what I learned. So I used it.
Fatima Mann:And I realized that that culture is burnout culture. People aren't talking about healing. And so I wanted to talk about healing, but COVID haven't happened yet. So nobody was on the wellness journey.
Fatima Mann:But I
Fatima Mann:don't wear shoes. So wellness had like, it became a really big part of my life because I had to I am the best thing that ever happened to me. I am the vessel. Right? I'm the car, the things that people spend money on.
Fatima Mann:I don't have a car, I'm the car. And the the the way that I eat in healthy food quote unquote is what people pay for their car note and their gas and their insurance. And if I'm gonna have to choose, I'm not gonna be the person driving the Tesla in McDonald's because I see that all the time. I'd rather be the person walking and the fuel that I have is the fuel that comes from the earth because that's what I invest in. So that brought me to love and healing work because I I I had been I had been abused, and I had been an abuser.
Fatima Mann:I had, toned myself down. I had made myself sick. I allowed people to to make me feel like because I wasn't full. I was a full time law student, and I just wanted to use what I learned to help people. And I did.
Fatima Mann:I'm not saying I didn't. And also though, how I got here and how I identify, I identify as as a being that moves where I'm led to move, that aligns with my divine purpose. And that's it. I don't I don't listen to anybody else. If you haven't walked some miles without shoes and the degrees that I've walked it.
Fatima Mann:Why am I listening to you about certain things? I can't you don't even trust yourself, but you want me to trust you. And so that's how I look at leaders. That's how I engage. And love and healing work was us creating a business where we could help leaders move from a place that doesn't harm themselves or others.
Fatima Mann:Like, when we are not harming ourselves, when we are in alignment with ourselves, we do all things well. And in Austin, I learned that. Austin allowed me to, really get into bringing activism and healing and and and blending in in a way. Like, my meetings start with grounding. I I generally believe we should be regulated before we start talking about hard stuff.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you. This is a heavy show. Right? I hold this space and I actively engage in, you know, the conversation. I put myself into it and so my ritual is to go to ace of cups on Cesar Chavez every month right before the show and get some energy work and get some body work and sit and have tea and, pull a tarot and get get collect a gift for my guests, and I put myself intentionally in that space to show up for this conversation for that very point.
Stacie Freasier:I really appreciate what you're bringing to light because I am right there with you. I, I tell people constantly that I am still healing. It's this is fresh. This is a fresh wound, but I'm still healing from the nonprofit industrial complex. And I got really deep in, and I went to grad school for nonprofit management.
Stacie Freasier:I worked in nonprofits, foundations, philanthropic infrastructure organizations, Like, in cities everywhere for a long time, 20 years. And and consulting, strategy consulting, not the type of consulting that I do now. If you wanna talk about healing and how to show up for other humans and actually be an organization with each other, and unpack some characteristics of white supremacy culture, which is gonna be a a constant and nonlinear process for the rest of our known lives, then then, yeah, I'll do that.
Fatima Mann:From from a regulated nervous system?
Stacie Freasier:Like food with water. Rest. With rest.
Fatima Mann:Because I what I learned is that most of the people on the front lines in any liberation, in any movement, aren't considering their own well-being. And most of us come from traumatic backgrounds, so we have our own trauma around a whole bunch of things. And a lot of us don't have the emotional capacity because we haven't learned it. Hence, why we're on we're willing to put ourselves in situations that most people aren't. And that comes with a little bit of crazy.
Fatima Mann:I'm not
Fatima Mann:saying that, like, like, I'm not saying that it's a
Fatima Mann:good or bad thing. And and, you know, and I'm not use and I'm using in the sense of you have to be willing to do certain things that others aren't willing to do. And Steve Jobs even, like, here's to the crazy ones kinda crazy. You know?
Stacie Freasier:Yeah.
Fatima Mann:And that's different. And recognizing that also comes with a lot of trauma too.
Stacie Freasier:Right? Right. The willingness to take risks.
Fatima Mann:Like, and and being able to do the work and. And and what does it look like when we imagine from the full 7 year old part of ourselves? So when we talk about this, like, liberation, I'm like, what does even liberation look like from the full 7 year old? You know, the 7 year olds are critical. They're a little cynic.
Fatima Mann:But, you know, they still have an imagination and their imagination is still beautiful and wonderful and glorious. They haven't been skewed yet. So and if they are napped and fed and they're having a great time, oh my goodness. So if your imagination is coming from that point, what is liberation?
Stacie Freasier:My view of liberation is quite radical from the root, right, which is music, food, gardening, telling stories with one another, helping each other out, and living in a communal place where we're exchanging currency that isn't money, and there are no party systems, and definitely it's not 2 parties. And I can keep going, but we don't have much, you know,
Fatima Mann:much time, but
Stacie Freasier:I really wanna hear you.
Fatima Mann:So so I asked you yeah. I asked you this question because it feels better when you're saying it. Right? And if we're putting that out there, why does that have to be radical? Why can't that just be?
Fatima Mann:Thank you. And we're now now we're creating we're saying, okay. We have our pockets and we start creating these pockets. This gets like, now our liberation is coming from the, the micro to the macro. A lot of times when we're starting talking about these things, we're we're talking really far out.
Fatima Mann:And I'm not saying that we can't help our our siblings, you know, around the world. We should be talking about them. We should be trying to figure out how we can send healing and and and peace and conflict transformation. Things to, like, actually bring their culture in ways because their people have no peace just as much as they know war. And it's being able to get them to get back to their ancestral ways, and that's not our role.
Fatima Mann:But it's reminding them that they have a way. Right? And in and in terms of saying, okay, so that's the macro. Then how do we how what's the micro? How are we creating these realities?
Fatima Mann:And that to me is liberation is saying, like, what is our consensual reality or the reality that we're all saying that we agree upon existing in for the betterment of all, not just a few, all. And then moving from that place because it shifts based off where all is. Because what works from my all may not work for your all. Different, you know, we live in 2 different climates. Just to start there.
Fatima Mann:How can I tell you what to do in your climate when I have no idea? But what I can say is I can remind you that you have a way, and there's your people know peace just as much as you know war. And how and how do you how did you all find peace in a way that really worked? Not the peace that us foreigners will never be able to see and know because ancestral, like, knowledge is real. We can go back to the ancestors whose names that we do not know to pull wisdom from them.
Fatima Mann:Why can't we all really just be like we all we I tell people this in my love and healing work sessions that, we forget to that there's there's more than traumatized ancestors. We can go past them. We can reach back to the ancestors that didn't know trauma. We can go back to the ancestors that did work in the communal ways that we are thinking is radical. It is not radical.
Fatima Mann:It is in our DNA. Like, we know this.
Stacie Freasier:I appreciate you telling me in on that because that is a reframe that I need to hear 7 times or 70. I don't know. But I agree and I believe that. And it's like, well, stop calling it radical because you're those are that's not radical.
Fatima Mann:It's ancestral knowledge.
Stacie Freasier:Exactly. And
Fatima Mann:we have the as a human being race has to, like, really remember that. We we know this is wrong. Not just because we know things are wrong. It's because in our bodies, in our DNA, it's like physically saying it is wrong. That's why people are getting sick right now.
Fatima Mann:Impasse can't get out of bed. People aren't moving because the world has so much energy that is it is the pressure is ridiculous that is making those that are, like, really tender feel all the feels.
Stacie Freasier:Yes.
Fatima Mann:So this is what I think liberation is too is the healing, putting another vibration, having the yin and the yang. When we are when we are organizing, are we organizing? They used to call it a hippie way, but it worked. It was putting another vibration in the world. That's why they were radical at the time.
Fatima Mann:Because they were putting healing into the world when the world was boring. So if we're not talking about putting more healing and collective energy into the world that is compounding this this war, then we're we're, like, we're doing it the same way that that we've been doing it. And it's continuously thinking that we're gonna war and think about it and not feel, because we're all feeling what's happening around the world globally. We just don't know what to call it. Because we're 1.
Fatima Mann:We are all connected. We breathe the same air on
Stacie Freasier:the same planet at the same time, And we are all connected at the mineral plant, animal level. I mean, we're all of us all of it. In all of us. Mhmm. So when I reached out to you, my original in the kitchen cooking up, I've been, I've been invited by friends, who are doing, you know, work here in Austin in, solidarity with Palestine.
Stacie Freasier:And one of those is, creating, mother's day quilts, right, for to benefit, the Palestinian children's, Liberation Organization. And I really particularly in particular, talking about nervous systems and healing, I really appreciate the process of engaging in that type of solidarity work because what that has looked like so far has been sitting in a house together, sewing, painting, eating food, learning, and celebrating ancestral knowledge and wisdom about the people of Palestine, what their symbols are and what they mean to them, and then honoring that with hourly meditations, get cozy, make art, and that feels to me more healing than getting angry and throwing names around at each other because I've witnessed that too in these spaces and some of these actions that I've participated in. So I wanted to share that out, also let people know that solidarity can look different ways, and I gave up not that long ago. I'm not gonna give myself too much credit, but I gave up the notion that prior whatever. I started interrogating what progress is, and I also started interrogating what growth means.
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm. Because sometimes death or re regression is is growth is not the end all be all all the time. Mhmm. Right? Impact does not mean scalability.
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm. And that is something that I really, really glad clicked and mourn mourn the harm that I caused when I didn't understand that.
Fatima Mann:Mhmm. And grace. So I always talk about, like, it's all having grace for oneself because it's a journey and we're all learning. And and and being honest to say that we're gonna cause harm because we are learning, so it's like, so how do I make sure that I'm not causing harm, you know, in these other ways? Because I'm gonna do it.
Fatima Mann:But I'm I I don't wanna do it on purpose. So how do I, you know, talk to you about how to engage so that when we're engaging, we're engaging from a place of agreement. I think that that's coming in even in solidarity, it's like asking people that you're being in solidarity with. What do you need? And and honoring that they may not know.
Fatima Mann:And so coming with options of, like, this is what you from the outside, looking from the outside, this is what we we believe you may need. But and we don't wanna assume that this is what you needed. But just saying that just from looking from the outside looking in and if we were in the same or similar situation, this is probably what we would think that we would need. So we're bringing it to you. So but but what do you think that you need from here?
Fatima Mann:And then take your time. And also, I think that getting that agreement and engagement helps. And I had to learn that. Like, you you have to ask the people, you know, you help and how they wanna be helped and recognize that some of them look too traumatized to answer that question.
Stacie Freasier:Or some of them don't trust you to answer it. True. Why would they yes.
Fatima Mann:That's all. But that but but and I think that if you wouldn't be talking to that person if they didn't. Right? You would have had you would you would have built or cultivated a relationship with them. You would have you would have let them know what your intentions were.
Fatima Mann:You would construct, what I've learned in Austin, I love the the artificial construct of of race has makes people believe they are a race. But really, I have a black experience. I am not black. You have a white experience. You are not white.
Fatima Mann:I think it's just it's an experience that society has said you have to have based off of all of these labels, but I don't think it's true. I think we can choose how we relate to these these qualities that come with these labels. So a lot of times, I I I genuinely believe that we can be in agreeance with these artificial constructs. So race, gender, all of, like, sexuality, all those things were created by somebody at a table that I don't even know their names.
Stacie Freasier:Right.
Fatima Mann:And then you want
Fatima Mann:me to be called this because I in I'm in this body and I look this way and that how does that make it make sense?
Stacie Freasier:I can't.
Fatima Mann:So what I feel is right. Right. Because if we're being, then we're moving from a place of a regulated nervous system, and we're doing things from a place of embodiment. So now the impact is how do people feel when they leave and come and engage in this space? I want you to feel like you're seen.
Fatima Mann:I want you to feel like you're heard and you know that, like, you are the best next thing to the best next thing.
Stacie Freasier:Because you
Fatima Mann:are. Because I believe I am, and you're a reflection of me. So,
Stacie Freasier:duh. Obviously. Right? Yeah.
Fatima Mann:And what if we can do that and turn it into policy? Because I have a law degree. And so what I I I genuinely believe that you can make policies and procedures, that are that align with the law, that don't break any of these dumb laws that they're creating to to stop people from, like, changing the world. They're busy.
Stacie Freasier:Haters. They're busy. They're haters. Keep they just do the talking about. Like, that's hater.
Fatima Mann:That we could keep up.
Fatima Mann:But here's the thing. It's election season, and I and I dare people. I double dare, triple dare. Actually, I don't dare you. I probably you people probably won't.
Fatima Mann:I said, I'm just gonna say this out loud. Most people don't look at the scorecard of the people that they're voting for and what they vote for and what they're and what they vote for actually align with. Right? So if most of the people stop voting for politicians that supported, you know, some of these wars out here in the world because you looked at their actual, like, scorecard, how many of them would probably be in office? Not a lot of them, but we're not looking at how people vote.
Fatima Mann:Right? And I think that's really important too because people are like, you gotta be smarter, and being smart is learning and saying, so why are you doing a thing? What's behind that thing? And when I was in law school, I got to, see how things were done and see how policies were made. And I was like, oh, you really do need to know who's paying for that, who's paying that lunch that day, and who's doing this.
Fatima Mann:And there's just certain things that politics are politics that I had you would not know until you knew.
Stacie Freasier:Right. I do appreciate that about that deep education in the complex because I know how the power is being wielded by those decisions, and that is not being taught for a reason.
Fatima Mann:But, you know, most of all of these systems are made by humans. And most of these humans are hungry and tired
Stacie Freasier:And lonely.
Fatima Mann:Right. And they don't feel seen or heard, and they're just trying to make it and survive. Most of them aren't taking care of themselves at all. And that's so
Stacie Freasier:saying getting that getting those dopamine and serotonin fixes where they where they can without the pullback of perspective of
Fatima Mann:Because they're humans.
Stacie Freasier:More regulated. I know.
Fatima Mann:And they're unregulated humans. Yeah. They're unregulated humans with their own traumas and triggers. Everybody is.
Stacie Freasier:And goes in and out of it so many times a day.
Fatima Mann:Because most of the stories that people hear in these professions are terrible.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah.
Fatima Mann:And people don't get that either, and there's no healing. People like, well, you chose to have that job. Yes. But there's also should be healing to to hear the things that people pop people in high places have to hear. There's certain conversations you don't wanna hear.
Fatima Mann:You're glad someone else gets to hear them. You glad that there's a number that you can call for someone else to deal with that thing that's over there because you don't wanna walk towards the the gunshots. You don't wanna be that person. Right. I don't.
Fatima Mann:I mean, I'm glad
Stacie Freasier:Because you're human.
Fatima Mann:Right.
Stacie Freasier:Alright. We're gonna have the gut to break. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm hearing Michelle's eyes. So we are gonna be right back.
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Stacie Freasier:Welcome back y'all. You're listening to racism on the levels. This is Stacey Fraser. I am sitting with Fatima Mann, and we are talking about liberation. We're talking about healing.
Stacie Freasier:We're talking about, humaning. And the original, like, shower idea, a topic that I wanted to bring in was and I brought this to Fatima. So will this, like, directors, like or what do you call that? I'm a music person. I don't know why I'm about to try to do a film reference, but, you know, the director's cut or whatever, where they show you like how things are made.
Stacie Freasier:Well, so that's what's happening right now and me, explaining this. So I wanted to see, like, what with curiosity and love, what the connection was between the black liberation movement and particularly during the civil rights era, And then beyond that, actually beyond that with Angela Davis in the seventies and talking about Palestinian Liberation and Black Liberation and Solidarity work. And so when I discovered that there was a linkage there and there was a body of written work about it, about those connections. That's what I was like, oh, I would like to, to to talk about that on the show right now, especially as people are incredibly charged up and and a lot of people in my life here in Austin and abroad about the situation and looking for answers and looking for how do they get involved because it's out of a, care, concern, and love. And given the show examines racism until so we can construct new realities that don't rely upon racism, a racial hierarchy to maintain a caste system which expands globally.
Stacie Freasier:Shout out to Origin, Eva DuVernay, and Isabel Wilkerson who wrote cast. I just did a bunch. So I just said it here. We'll take a couple of breaths, and then you can tell me anything you want, really.
Fatima Mann:Okay. So when he asked me that question, when I looked at it, I was like, what what perspective am I gonna answer this from? And I wanna say that there are some beautiful beings that identify as being black women, who are scholars, who aren't getting cited right now, who have written papers around this same issue of today. But a lot of times people don't research and look for those those because a lot there's black women scholars right now who have been writing and talking and they have podcasts and they're they're out there doing this work. And because people don't cite black women, shout out to doctor Smith, there's not a lot of people that she started this hashtag cite black women, and she's a, a professor at UT Austin.
Fatima Mann:And so I when I wrote my paper for actual law school, I cited mostly black women. And it was 80% black women, and it was on purpose because she had this movement where people don't cite black women enough. And they keep going back to our ancestors and I'm so thankful for them. But there's really great black women scholars right now to research and everybody who knows me knows I'm terrible at names. So don't ask me to name them because if you know me, I name you how I remember you Yeah.
Fatima Mann:Unless you make me do it another way. So, like, this I'm just being honest Because I think
Stacie Freasier:you've given enough you've left enough bread crumbs for people to look up that hashtag for starters. Right? Like, cite black women and go from there.
Fatima Mann:Yeah. Like, it's a it's a real thing.
Stacie Freasier:And doctor Smith at UT.
Fatima Mann:Right. Of course. So I wanna I wanna say that to answer the question because I think everybody thinks that we should all be in different lanes. And right now, I feel like a lot of black women are we're moving from this place of where's our lane, and we're gonna be in our lane, and we're gonna let you handle what you need to handle because burnout is real. Black women, and especially in the United States, were dying at a higher rate for stress related diseases.
Fatima Mann:We're not giving birth. We're dying at giving birth. We're not able to procreate. That's a issue, and it's coming from having to be a black woman in the United States. And it's a label.
Fatima Mann:That's why I'm like, I don't subscribe because it's too stressful. Like, I don't know. I don't wanna do anything. That. Right?
Fatima Mann:Like, so honoring that there are people that are doing that are in their lanes and a lot of us are tired. Like, a lot of us have been fighting for a long time and fighting in the day, fighting in the streets, fighting at meetings. And so and honestly, we all should be stopped, stopped fighting. Like, we just need to pause for a moment. If I if we people just stopped and did what they were supposed to do when the world shut down and really, like, saw that people there there's some of us that are full enough to do certain things.
Fatima Mann:Let us do those things, but everybody's not there. Everyone's not full. And so to ask people that are engaging in different liberations to, like, slide over to another liberation isn't human to me. It doesn't it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like we're we're trying to do something new. It's like you're supposed to fight and fight in this fight, this fight.
Fatima Mann:No. Like, that person has that lane. Go talk to that person. They that that that's their passion. It doesn't burn them out.
Fatima Mann:It excites them. It invigorates them. That's what they're here for. Go talk to them. Be that other person alone.
Fatima Mann:Yeah. Right? And and and I and generally be the people. And I so for me, the I think the liberations are the same because people everybody on the front lines, I think it's different because we can see it. And I feel like there's more vicarious trauma now than there was before, and there's less healing about it.
Fatima Mann:And I'm gonna keep coming to that because people don't make good decisions from a deregulated nervous system. So we can never get anything new if people are unregulated. And you no one can tell me that I'm wrong. Not one person. Not one.
Fatima Mann:So I generally know that the it's the same because there's a whole bunch of dysregulated nervous systems. And I also know that there's a lot of us trying to create spaces where there are regulated nervous systems. So now we're talking about liberation from a place of honoring that race as an artificial construct. Somebody made it up. And what it begins ends.
Fatima Mann:Everybody knows that. So how are we ending this concept of racism in a way that keeps us from seeing each other's humanity? And that really starts because most of us don't see our own humanity. We don't see ourselves, so we dare not see someone else, but we wanna be on the front line in saying that we're fighting for someone's liberation. No.
Fatima Mann:You should be at home loving yourself through your own liberation, beautiful being, because you're hurting and hurt people hurt people. We don't want to, but sometimes we do.
Stacie Freasier:So to just emerge for me and there's a sadness and I I ponder a lot about and I hold grief and joy
Fatima Mann:so closely
Stacie Freasier:because they're related. They're they're they're twins. They're not identical toys, but they're twins. Right? And, my experience in action fills a need for doing something in community of others, right, as a as a salve for loneliness and isolation.
Stacie Freasier:And I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. Maybe they can't name it. Maybe they don't even they're not even aware, you know, that that's why they're doing it. And that's something. Right?
Stacie Freasier:Like, being, well, first knowing what your motivation is for anything you do is important, and people are going so fast. Because we live in a society, we are being fed fast food. We are seeing fast. The the the social media posts are faster and faster. Right?
Stacie Freasier:Cars are fast. Everything's faster. Fast. Fast. That's why I walk.
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm.
Fatima Mann:I haven't had a car in 9 years.
Stacie Freasier:I was car free for a decade. I lived in the northeast, and I was just car free.
Fatima Mann:Yeah. I know.
Stacie Freasier:And I moved back to Austin. Mhmm. And now we don't even have 1. We have 2 because we have school commutes, jobs across town, meta I have chronic health I mean, what like, there is not a way to get 5 miles here in under an hour and a half on a on a bus? Like, what?
Stacie Freasier:Like, less than 5 miles.
Fatima Mann:No. It's just 2 it's like I've I've done 5 miles in about it's it was it was, like, 2 out under 2 out years.
Stacie Freasier:You could walk 5 miles faster than you could, patch together public transportation options in this city. Absolutely. Yeah. Done it. Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah.
Fatima Mann:You do. Like, well, I know who to call, and
Stacie Freasier:I know who to suggest to call if they're trying to figure that out.
Fatima Mann:Like, I'm yeah. I I walk anything to 5 miles at a time. So 10 miles in a day. And then if I've never seen a place, I'll just I can until my feet are like, no. It's how you like, how you feel the earth.
Fatima Mann:Like, my I've yeah. It's a thing.
Stacie Freasier:Alright. So here's a, an active call out to engage the include the audience who cannot dialogue with us right now but are listening in. Like, what would, what would be something healing for their nervous systems agnostic of where they are? So if you're listening in the car or you're listening at your office or you're listening laying on your couch.
Fatima Mann:Your breath. The breath is the one of the most regulating things you can take. And it's just taking the breath with intention. Noticing that you are inhaling and you are exhaling. It brings us to the moment.
Fatima Mann:It reminds us that we're here. It reminds us that this is happening right now. That inhale and that exhale. When we notice it is one of the most regulating things that we can do anywhere. It's just take a breath and then keep breathing.
Fatima Mann:If you don't feel that feeling the first one, keep doing it. You'll get there. I promise.
Stacie Freasier:I'd like to incorporate I have a lot of breathing awareness, thanks to my teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the order of intervening. Shout out to the Plum Blossom Sangha here locally. I went to their retreat last month and and I think about breath and how I can bring it in on the radio. Right? Like, how do I bring in invitations to pause and breathe on a radio show?
Stacie Freasier:That's an interesting challenge. Right? They're like, did that my radio just go out? Like, when are they oh, there's a glitch. Oh.
Stacie Freasier:Oh, it's down. Let me switch to the next thing. But I, I wrote something, that I picked up at the retreat. And if you're okay with with me doing it right now, I want to sing this little breathing in breathing out, exercise mantra that I learned. And if you are in a place that is safe for you to close your eyes or lower your gaze, Please join me in doing that.
Stacie Freasier:I was I am gonna sing right now for the first time on the radio, And this is a breathing prompt and, so I encourage you to just receive it.
Fatima Mann:Breathe in.
Stacie Freasier:Breathe out. Deep slow, calm ease, Precious
Fatima Mann:moment.
Stacie Freasier:Wonderful
Fatima Mann:moment.
Stacie Freasier:And when you're in community together, you can repeat it. You can sing it together, and you can repeat it 3, 4 times and really get into it. Your turn.
Fatima Mann:I am not singing on the radio,
Stacie Freasier:but I can do it in me, buddy.
Fatima Mann:That was more like
Stacie Freasier:a leading people through a breathing exercise.
Fatima Mann:It was. It was. It was. It was.
Stacie Freasier:That's how I justified it to myself.
Fatima Mann:It's I I think it's beautiful. It was beautiful. Thank you for sharing. I so I started my journey with Buddhism. So, how I learned to meditate.
Fatima Mann:So I've been on the Buddhism path for 10 years now, and then Buddhism got me to meditation, which I thought was yoga. So I got into yoga, and then I learned about IFA, which is an African spiritual practice, and then I learned about the different forms of African spiritual practices. And at the time, I took off my shoes, and then my world changed. I learned really what mindfulness is. I learned I learned that organisms have the right to agree to how they engage with one another from a tree because I couldn't climb it, and it wouldn't let me climb it.
Fatima Mann:And all I heard was ask it and I put my hands, my feet in the tree. I had a moment. I asked the tree and then I shot up the tree. And my friend who was there, she saw it and also couldn't climb the tree. I was like, you got to ask it.
Fatima Mann:And she was
Stacie Freasier:like, what? I was like,
Fatima Mann:you gotta ask it. She asked it. She climbed the tree and I was like, oh, we all have to agree. Like, it's we're all living beings. And it's been 9 years since I've been really learning how to agree with myself first.
Fatima Mann:Like, how am I really and I think, again, with the work that I do with Love and Healing work is we start with consent. I start with, like, getting people to be in an agree agreeable relationship with yourself. Really checking in with yourself and saying, like, just because you said you could do it 3 weeks ago does not mean that you're in the mind, body, or spirit to do it today. And that is okay. Your the shame and the guilt shouldn't stop you because we can have the shame and the guilt and
Fatima Mann:Mhmm.
Fatima Mann:We can do the thing that we wanna do, which is rest and be still and be at home and say, okay. I need to just re like, re really refill myself. And honoring that we because we restart there, and then we go out to help other people. Oh, we do it from this oh my goodness. This loving kindness that is so big that we can't put words to it.
Fatima Mann:But because we walk into the room, we change other people's nervous systems. Because that's that's my goal is, like, I'm, like, to be so like, I'm regulated. So I'm around I'm not disregulating people, but disregulated people, disregulated others.
Stacie Freasier:It's true.
Fatima Mann:People you that's that feeling when you walk into a room and they're like the energy changes because that person walks in and they're in this energy. You don't know you don't know what the name is, but you feel that something shifts. That's you're not that's not our that's our body. That's our animal. That's the energy.
Fatima Mann:Right? So I feel like that's in this and when we're talking about movement and change and things, it's like, I ask people what do you need and give it to yourself first. Then you can start asking others what they need because you recognize what you may have needed if you and when in a time that you are traumatized or triggered? What would you really have needed? Someone to ask you what kind of food you eat?
Fatima Mann:Like, what is it that you what is your like, how do how can we make your life easier? What is there something that, you know, we can help take off your plate? And you build the relationship so you can do those things. Having and then having liaisons with the people who already have the relationships and saying, listen. We don't wanna be rude because we don't know the cultural norms, but we wanna make sure that we we have access to this.
Fatima Mann:Because when we talk about liberation as people and being solidarity, it's like, how are you coming to this as a helper? If you're coming tired, I don't need you. Go home. If you're coming well, this is never gonna change. It's always gonna be the same.
Fatima Mann:You do not need to be on the front lines at all. You need you need to be doing what somebody else tells you to do because clearly you're not there yet. And that's fine. But the people in the front line need to be the people who can who can just sit there and regulate it and just be. Because those humans have a job, unfortunately, that they signed up to do.
Fatima Mann:And, unfortunately, there's rules and, unfortunately, there's all these unfortunate things that happen. So if you're going in there with these human beings who they're unregulated anyway, because look what kind of job they're doing. And there's no resources for them. Do you know how far Austin police officers have to drive to get trauma informed care after a police involved shooting? They can't get care in Austin.
Fatima Mann:Could you imagine? You can't. I don't want to.
Fatima Mann:But I see I mean, but I see the outcome.
Fatima Mann:Right. You see a whole bunch of dysregulated people doing terrible things because hurt people hurt people. So I'm gonna always go back to this. How are you checking in with yourself to make sure we are not harming ourselves by putting ourselves in situations where then we can't hear the people we're trying to help? Because we're so dysregulated that when somebody tells you this is how we need to help, you're still saying, well, how do I help?
Fatima Mann:People have written articles. There are people there's organizations that are supporting, Palestinians and and the siblings and all these things. They have different places where you they're asking people to divest money. All those things. I know because I researched it just so I could say that it's a thing.
Fatima Mann:Yeah. And if I could do it and we're all interested in knowing, then maybe your calling is you don't be on the front lines. You just stop going to McDonald's to be healthier. You'll feel better. I promise.
Fatima Mann:I'm just say I'm not saying that McDonald's, like, supports it. I'm just saying, like, as an example because I just really don't like fast food. I just think it's
Stacie Freasier:too I'm just gonna guess yes if I have to.
Fatima Mann:So it is involved. So so so just just be right. And then that that's like that's supporting from a place of what you can do and finding not what you can do because your mind says you need to do something. But because you checked in with your mind and your body and your schedule and your heart, and you really because a lot of us are grieving still. And a lot of us don't know how to hold grief and joy, so we're we're running away from our grief by being involved in so many different things and packing our calendar with all the things.
Fatima Mann:But if we were still, then we realized they were grieving, that's why we're going to McDonald's every day. Mhmm. And if we start going to McDonald's every day, we can look at the fact that we're grieving and know that we're doing your part.
Stacie Freasier:And then we're breaking the cycle.
Fatima Mann:Right. And that's I think that's the innovation that we we have to really start thinking about is, like, we have to stop going to the place that we've always seen and and say, how does it look different to center the the healing and the knowing that we all went through COVID, and most of us have PTSD that nobody's talking about. Most of us, you know, are and and we went back to work, and children had to go back. Little like, all these things happened. And then what and and then and then we're supposed to find a liberation too.
Fatima Mann:What? How do you do it? And how do you do it from a place of love? When you're not really we're not willing as a society to to accept out loud that most of us are dysregulated. COVID dysregulated most of us, and we're grieving, and we and we're we have PTSD because of COVID, and we need space at work, and we need space in school to be able to have these conversations and say, listen.
Fatima Mann:I'm just struggling right now. Can we take a break? And can we all do some collective breathing? Because that should be an option as humans. I think, again, for me, liberation and what I see is like you can all the AI in the world, you can research these questions.
Fatima Mann:But the the things that I'm saying you are not gonna find on Google. And honoring that, people have to be full first, and then they'll know how they can change the world. How do you become in solidarity if you don't know what aligns with you because you you're too busy being busy. But if you know, okay, this is my this is this is what lights me up and that's what you can give to the liberation. I promise you, like people will receive it because you're full and you'll know what to do.
Fatima Mann:That fullness will guide you. It'll guide you in that love and that sweetness and that grace and even with that shame and that guilt because you're gonna mess up. Because our experiences, the white experience has has covered a lot of people's eyes, and there's a lot of unlearning that has to happen, and there's a lot of bumps to the road as you unlearn some things, and that's okay. It's knowing that if you're gonna not you're gonna mess it up. But the shame and the guilt can't stop you from growing and keep going and and trying and honoring that there's people in your life that you can ask hard questions to.
Fatima Mann:Everybody that's having that experience is not the person to ask. So so I'm saying researching organizations that align with the movement of the people by the people and then having conversations and knowing so that you now you're you're seeing you're you're making sure you're supporting what needs to be supported and that what aligns with who you are. So let's say there's, groups that are musicians that are Palestinian musicians, and let's say they're putting on shows to raise money, then how do you support their shows? I'm not saying that's happening, but I'm just saying that how what there's there's different groups that are specifically for bringing aid and and and helping what's going on around the world. They're having virtual events and they're having, like, in person events.
Fatima Mann:And it's saying, okay. So how do you support that? Is it sharing the news and making sure that people know this is an organization that, you know, funds it to the people? And and this is not to say that you have to ask, like, show me your records, but, like, knowing do the people support that group and the people being the people impacted. Do the people impacted support the group that you're supporting is really important.
Fatima Mann:Just because just because there's groups that align with certain, cultures or races or etcetera does not mean that the people support them.
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm. And you just sit on within within the guise of, you know, the white saviorism, basically, what came up for me. It's like or performative action, performative support. All of that, like, all of these lenses you can put on. Right?
Stacie Freasier:Lenses of awareness and and wisdom, and and and your body's gonna tell you too. Let's put it back into the body. Your body's gonna tell you, you have that gut feeling that something's off. Pause. Like, inaction is an action.
Stacie Freasier:Like, inaction is an option.
Fatima Mann:And I think, also, knowing that, again, if you have shame because there's inaction, that's okay. Keep doing the inaction. Don't let the shame stop you. Yeah. Because we are conditioned to go go go and do do do.
Fatima Mann:And the rev like liberation, freedom is to me, what I know to be true is aligning with your body and your mind and your heart and doing what that needs first. Because when you can do that, then you can listen to somebody else's mind and body and heart. I wouldn't hear what they're saying because you listen to your own because we're connected and allowing the and, again, there's practices. There's different, ways that people do this. There's different models that we can, you know, put, like, research and and even see if they're even doing so that again, how do you support these models?
Fatima Mann:Maybe they need help training people to go in and do this work. I don't know. But it's being able to say that there's so many ways that we can help, but from a full place, from a regulated place, from a place of knowing that all is well and not, like, everything is gonna be what it's always been.
Stacie Freasier:And then you can move from a place of abundance because you're not locked into scarcity.
Fatima Mann:Crap.
Stacie Freasier:And you're not feeling scarce. Right? Your resources are you're full. You keep yeah. I love your words.
Stacie Freasier:From a place of being full, then you can share your abundance. Right. That's lovely and I appreciate your wisdom. We are running low on time. 5 minutes.
Stacie Freasier:We've we've mentioned the word solidarity, and we put the word liberation in and we've, you know, asked that that, you know, put some light considering that. What is what does solidarity mean to you? What is the words what is solidarity?
Fatima Mann:I don't that's not the word that I would use, so I don't because it's it has a lot of the words don't always feel good saying. And so I like to say things that feel good coming out of my mouth. I don't like the word solidarity. I don't think I ever liked it. It, and so I didn't say it as much.
Fatima Mann:So
Stacie Freasier:I mean, is there, like, a
Fatima Mann:You know, the human connection. Like Yeah. Like, to me, it's, it's it's about, honoring our own human experience first, and then coming together to honor another human experience and honoring their experience and knowing that their experience is theirs. And I don't wanna take it personal, but I can be here witnessing you and your experience with love. And the other things, I could be angry too, but I don't have to be harmful.
Fatima Mann:And that to me is the human experience, is that we can engage collectively from a place of no of of non harm. And we can do any and everything if we can agree how we want to engage and knowing that I'm not I'm not gonna hurt you. My my intention isn't to hurt you. And if the impact is how do we reconcile? How do we how do we really do the work from a place of fullness, not from a place of of deficit?
Fatima Mann:That's the human connection to me. And so I call it, like, how do we how do we human with one another better? How do we how do we move from a place of I see you. You. Not the experience that you may have.
Fatima Mann:I see that too, and I honor that. And I also see you. All can be true. I don't have to do or.
Stacie Freasier:I think we're wrapping up, so I don't think we have time to unpack and dance with anything else today, except I wanna thank you thank Fatima Mann so much for your generosity of your spirit and your time and your wisdom and, thank you for listening in. You are I'm actually switching. This is my last show on this schedule, but, I will be, the racism on the levels will be, 3rd Thursdays at 1 PM starting next month. So up next is riding on the air with Mindy Reed, and you can reach out to me at stacy@k0op.org. And remember, in all things and always, love is the highest level.
KOOP:Right now, all around us is a music that is all beat. It's rap music, and it sounds like this.
Fatima Mann:Gotta get some. In this world, you only need one song. To live your life like you visualize a full land purpose, I take another. Travel the world, sharing your time with the young and the old and the rich and the poor. The conversations that'll move your soul.
Fatima Mann:You got a love song? I got a love song. We in the love zone. Together, we create melodies. So what harmonies?
Fatima Mann:We're making peace for the world of z. You got a love song? I got a love song. We in the love zone. Thank you, love.
Fatima Mann:Thank you, love. Thank you, love.