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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the Debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. This episode contains content about marriage and sex that might not be suitable for some younger listeners. Parental discretion is advised.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the debrief. It is Miller time once again. Oh my gosh, you know, they gave me such a good deal when they came on staff, we get them, you know, 2 times.
Brad Miller:It's a 2fer.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a 2fer, yeah. So I appreciate you guys. We're having a special sale on love today.
Tami Miller:There we go. I love it.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Relationships. Well, welcome back, man. I'm just so thankful for you guys and just appreciate you guys. And if you don't know who the Millers are, listen to the previous episode.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We gave them, an introduction and they kind of shared their story. So love you guys. So let's just jump right in. Adrian, from I'd Rather Not Say. I've never been to I'd Rather Not Say.
Brad Miller:It's a small town. It's a small town. Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. So So, Adrian, thank you for your question. This is, a great question. I'm so sorry that you're going through this, and I can't wait to hear what the Millers have say about this. But the question is, what advice would you give to someone going through a spouse's infidelity?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you for being specific, Adrianne. My wife of 4 years confessed to a sexting relationship. Apologize and we're doing all the right things, church community counseling. But I'm afraid I won't ever get over this feeling of betrayal. Who wants to jump into this one?
Tami Miller:I can take it. Okay.
Brad Miller:You got it, boss. Okay. Thank you.
Tami Miller:It does sound like you're doing all the right things. So first of all, good for you. Keep pressing in. You are doing all the things that you can do. And it sounds like 2 of you are doing it together, which is even better.
Tami Miller:Very hopeful. Have hope. I'm gonna start with saying that you will always have an injury in your marriage. Mhmm. Brad and I have walked through 100 of with 100 of couples through betrayal.
Tami Miller:That's actual, area of expertise for me personally. Yeah. Not not personally, like, between us, but personally, professionally. And Brad and I do this together with couples as well, so very familiar with it. And you will have an injury in your marriage, but as a result of the work you do, you can actually become better, stronger, and thrive even better than you could have ever imagined.
Tami Miller:It's hard to feel that in the midst of it. It sounds like you're in the the hardest part, which is, you know, the disclosure and learning all the details and, just being able to look at your spouse and say, who are you? Mhmm. You know? And even look at yourself and remember, who am I?
Tami Miller:Am I the fool? Am I the fool to keep trying and fighting? There's lots of questions, and doubts. But keep pressing in because you will along the journey, you will discover a lot about yourself Mhmm. And your healing, and the goal is for each of you to be transformed.
Tami Miller:And it'll be a whole new marriage. Mhmm. A whole new, be wasn't working. Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tami Miller:It really wasn't working. A lot of people will say, I just want what we used to have. No. You don't. Yeah.
Tami Miller:No. You don't. Because some somewhere along the way, there was something broken, in your marriage. I'm I'm not saying as a result of that brokenness, what she's doing or did, was, the right thing to do. It wasn't.
Tami Miller:It wasn't a way creating a new problem isn't a way to handle an existing problem. Okay? So not excusing the fact that she betrayed, but the fact is that something was not right in marriage. And you guys need to figure out what that was, the hows and the whys. Once you do, it'll equip you, empower you to be better than ever.
Tami Miller:Have hope. Hang on.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, that's great. Great word.
Brad Miller:Yeah. Adrian, thank you so much for sharing this. I would say just know that it takes time. Again, you're you're doing all the right things. It takes time.
Brad Miller:And here's the here's the picture that I wanna leave with you. Everybody understands, Lego, building things with those great little blocks that kill your feet Yeah. When you step on them. And and and I'm gonna make the analogy of trust. Trust is interesting because it takes a long time to build trust, but it's lost in an instance.
Brad Miller:So part of what you're feeling is that is that lack of trust, that void of trust, and you just don't know if it will ever get back. Yes, it will. Keep doing the right things. It takes time just like taking those little Lego blocks one brick at a time and and building something, building a house, building something beautiful, building the Empire State Building. It takes time.
Brad Miller:It's knocked down in an instant.
Tami Miller:Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Let me just say this, Adrianne, and here's why I have hope for you. I love the word confessed. Mhmm. If I saw caught, that's a much different thing.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Confession is a beautiful, beautiful thing because what this means is she felt bad about it and she felt prompted to come to you. And I just would really, really kind of plant my flag in that Oh,
Tami Miller:my goodness.
Matthew Stephen Brown:As look, she was willing to share something that she obviously feels terrible about with you, and I think that is a precious, precious gift. And so I just always, always love confession over being caught because it just gives me hope, because there's just I think it's easier to trust. Because what that tells me is, okay, if my spouse does something, she's going to come to me because there's a rift of honesty between us. And so I really appreciate that. And what I would say is there's a great book, I forget her name, you guys pull it up, Forgiving What You Can't Forget by
Brad Miller:Lisa Trokers. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Lisa Trokers. It's a great, great book, even though it's a woman author and maybe her primary audience is women. Adrienne, I would read that because, you know, forgiving is not forgetting. And I love what you said, did you say an injury?
Tami Miller:There will always be an injury in your marriage.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. And that's just a reality. And so can we move forward with that? And I've seen couples go through far worse, Adrianne, and they've had incredible outcomes as they work through things, they got honest and they got real. And what I would say to all of our married listeners, and singles is nobody knows what they're doing when they get married.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so so we're we're trying to figure this out and we're gonna make mistakes. And what I would say is your wife made a mistake, and she messed up and that's part of the learning experience. And so what can you do, you know, when she's feeling whatever she was feeling, needy, unnoticed, unloved, underappreciated, you know, there's some other guy that's giving her all this attention. How can you be the man that's like, no, no, no, I wanna be that guy. Yep.
Matthew Stephen Brown:How can I do that? Was there something I wasn't doing? You're not responsible for for her choice to do this, but but where can you, maybe meet those needs that maybe, you know, as guys, we get busy on our careers, we get focused and sometimes we neglect our wives and and they have needs too in the marriage. And so I would just work on that. So great, great question.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay, Annie Moss, this is our most famous question asker. We love Annie.
Brad Miller:Is it a guy or girl?
Matthew Stephen Brown:We don't have.
Brad Miller:Because this person writes in a
Matthew Stephen Brown:lot. Yes. Yes. Yes. They are they change gender often.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So Annie Moss from Riverside. Hi, Pastor Matt. I am really trying to dive deeper in my faith. I love that. And live, what, and live the life, there we go, I'm trying to read, the life that the Lord wants me to have.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. I've been married for almost 3 years. Prior to being being married, I had a promiscuous life thinking that I would find someone to love me through sex. Wow. I carry a lot of shame and embarrassment from this.
Matthew Stephen Brown:How can I ask for forgiveness? Also, it has affected my marriage. Okay. Now we know it's female. How can my husband and I work through this?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Annie Moss, we love you.
Brad Miller:Great question. He wants to I'll jump in. I I would say, Annie, we love you. We see you. We understand how deeply hurtful that can be.
Brad Miller:You don't have to stay there. I'm really proud of you for trying to do the work needed to get to a better place. Well done. I often say that regret is a harsh teacher. It's a good teacher and a thorough teacher, but regret is a harsh teacher.
Brad Miller:But it is your regret that motivates you to do better, to find something different. Don't lose that. It's like the dog going back to its vomit thing. You know, we we don't do that because it's hard and it's it's painful. Don't allow that regret to turn into shame either.
Brad Miller:That's a very important distinction. Shame will tell you that's who you are. That's the that's the enemy. Regret will tell you that's who you were. Shame will tell you that nobody could ever forgive you.
Brad Miller:Regret will say, I hate the old me, but I'm already forgiven. Shame will say there's no hope for you. And, by the way, every way everywhere I said the word shame, you could insert the word enemy Yeah. The enemy, and it's it's the same thing. So it's really tuning yourself to listen to the voice of God, Receive that forgiveness.
Brad Miller:Use your regret to motivate you to keep moving forward. As far as asking for forgiveness, ask as often as you need to. You're already forgiven.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:But ask as often as as you need to. Matt, I'd love to hear you speak into this, but, I've often thought there's a there's a verse that says, God removes our sin as far as east is from west. How far is that? It's it's infinite. You know?
Brad Miller:And then there's, also in Hebrews, I think it says, God will remember your sin no
Matthew Stephen Brown:more. Amen.
Brad Miller:Like, those are those are mind blowing concepts for us that we just can't wrap our heads around. And so the idea is sort of that, you know, even though we're created in God's image, he can forget
Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:And we can't. Mhmm. And we don't. And so why is that? Why would God allow us to keep a memory of something so painful from our past?
Brad Miller:And I actually think it's because we need the lesson. God doesn't. You know, we need the healing, God doesn't. So he allows us to remember those things, to live with them so that we can do better, so that we can pursue him, so that we can be all in and just press in. That's good.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm the preacher though.
Brad Miller:So let me That's true. That's good. You go.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Sorry. Good work. Go ahead. No. You go.
Brad Miller:Oh, you
Matthew Stephen Brown:want me to go? So I would just I would I would just probe a little deeper here and ask, you know, have you confessed this to him? So I'm just curious. So, you know, I don't know, Annie, if you have or not, but shame, shame tends to go away with confession. So two things.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So everything that, you know, Brad shared is right on. So first John 19, for if we confess our sins to God, he is faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And so we need to learn to do that. But there's another verse because some of us are like, okay, but I I this shame is still hanging around. And, that's where James 5 16 comes in.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Confess your sins to one another so that you may be whole and healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. And so a lot of times as Christians, if you've confessed this sin to God, and I don't know if you have or not, so I would start there. And then if there's just still this shame, I would confess to a counselor. I would confess to a pastor.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And then upon their recommendation, maybe they would share, okay, you need to share this with your spouse. If you haven't shared this with your spouse, you need to confess this because the devil lurks in the darkness and he holds what has not been exposed against us. But all evil loses its power in the light. So Annie, I don't know because I don't know if you've shared this, but what I would say is I'm just sensing that if this is really pulling you down, maybe it's more secret than it needs to be. You don't need to walk in shame.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We all have a testimony. We all have a story that we were all something before, you know, we came to Christ or even for some of us like myself, I was an idiot even after I knew Jesus and I had to wrestle through that. But but just saying, okay. Here's here's the truth and and here and here's what's happened. And just really putting that on the cross.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And and theologically, the question is, is what I did more powerful than what Jesus did for me on the cross? And just make it make it theological. And so if you think your sin is more powerful than what Jesus did on the cross, you don't know Jesus, you don't know the cross. And then I would go back to the gospel and I would just say, okay, I'm gonna put that on the cross and I'm gonna leave it there and I'm gonna walk away from that. And, and I think there's healing power in that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But I wanna hear what Tammy has to say.
Tami Miller:Sure. I would say that the promiscuous life will and the shame that's trying to keep reminding you, playing that script over in your head is probably saying you you used up all your firsts
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tami Miller:With a bunch of other men, but that's a lie. Because in your marriage, this is your marriage now. It's not just some man that's pretending to give you love. It's a man that is giving you love. And there's lots of firsts.
Tami Miller:It could even be the first person you ever made love with Yeah. Truly made love with is your your husband. There's lots and lots of her. So be they'll be focusing on the promiscuous life of what you feel like you already gave up to somebody else, but what are you getting for the first time Mhmm. In your marriage and celebrate that together.
Tami Miller:Mhmm. I mean, even, you know, when you you and your husband are celebrating, some good things are happening in your life and you celebrate by being intimate it's actually intimate together, that's probably not something you did with other
Brad Miller:Right.
Tami Miller:Men. Maybe there's trials going on and you find yourself just curled up together and it ends up, again, in a in a sexually intimate experience. You're actually grieving in a sexually intimate way together. You probably never did that with another man. So there's so many firsts to look forward to.
Tami Miller:So focus, reframe on what are new beginnings and new you, with your husband. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, man.
Brad Miller:I love you guys. Wise words, boss.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Yeah. That's awesome. There's a big reason we pursued Tammy. That was awesome.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Annie another Annie Moss. How would you deal with a spouse that claims to be a Christian, but but inconsistently bears fruit? I wonder if this is my wife that's in this.
Brad Miller:For example, occasionally attends church, that would be
Matthew Stephen Brown:a problem. Believes that all sins are forgiven as long as you believe in Jesus. Okay. This isn't me. And that the Bible is up for individual interpretation.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know how you guys wanna do this because it's really kind of 3 questions. So do you want me to go, you wanna go, what do you wanna do?
Brad Miller:I think we should just lean in, Matt, and we should say this is an intervention, we're here for you. Okay. Thank you. I'll
Matthew Stephen Brown:I'll I'll jump in.
Brad Miller:Yeah. There is a lot here. I would say, first, authentic love, the kind that we that we learn from Jesus is different than anything else. It breaks down walls, it breaks down barriers, it's the kind of love that changes people. It changed me.
Brad Miller:It probably changed you, Matt. It probably changed you, Annie. Don't stop loving your spouse. Don't stop praying for your spouse. There is power in that.
Brad Miller:That's what, you know, again in prayer, Matt, you talked a few weeks ago about, connecting with God, and when we connect with God in prayer, it's because he wants to hear our hearts. He wants to hear from us. So don't neglect that. That's super important. Don't stop surrounding yourself with people who will love you and pray together with you and encourage you.
Brad Miller:The truth is you cannot fix your spouse. You can love your spouse and pray for them while they fix themselves, but you can't fix your spouse. We've seen that train wreck happen too many times. It doesn't turn out well. When your spouse is ready, they'll they'll figure it out.
Brad Miller:One more thing. Can I can I recommend the apologetics resource? So so I'm gonna I'm gonna say check out, str.org. I don't know if you're familiar with their their work, Greg Hochul. It's stand to reason, but the website is str.org.
Brad Miller:The reason I think that's important is because for somebody who thinks they're, you know, the the bible is up for individual interpretation or Jesus isn't really who he says he is, there's there's knowable ways that we can work through these things. It's not just it's not just Matt's opinion that he's sharing on on Sundays, or Saturdays.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:But for example, you know, we've all seen the bumper sticker that says coexist. Right. That sort of implies that, you know, all religions are are the same. They're not and and there's ways that we can work through those. There's questions that we can learn to ask, to know if there's, if they're actually equal ways of of going to heaven.
Brad Miller:Jesus said in John 4, 146, I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the father but by me. So, we know that Jesus was either, telling the truth, you know, liar, lunatic, or lord, he was either telling the truth or he was crazy.
Matthew Stephen Brown:He didn't
Brad Miller:didn't know what he was saying. But if you learn some of those, good questions, those good grounding questions, not only will it make you better as a believer, but, you just might be the right person to ask some challenging questions, to your spouse as well. Yeah.
Tami Miller:I would just add, make sure that you're bearing authentic fruit yourself. Yeah. Be the example and don't do it and then see what I'm doing Mhmm. Because then it's not authentic. Mhmm.
Tami Miller:Just be deep in prayer and deep reflection. Am I being authentic? Am I being real in my own life and bearing the fruit? That will be contagious for him to see.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I would just say, instead of criticizing him when he doesn't go to church, affirm him when he does. Yeah.
Tami Miller:I love that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's what I would say. So I I just love, you know, I love it when, you know, guys aren't dumb, you know, have great sex after church. Mhmm. He'll figure it out. You know?
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's right. Yeah. So so so be intimate. And just so you know, one of the things historically that the church has said is that one of the things we do as Christians on the Sabbath is lovemaking. It is a part of rejoicing in the new creation of God and the return of it.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just one of the ways that we connect. And Jews have said this and Christians, I don't care how conservative, have said that this is a part of some of the things you could do on Sabbath. And so it's just really, really important. So next I would just say, look, a lot of Christians believe a lot of stupid stuff. And so, you know, part of the reason we go to church is to learn and unpack these things.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would just, again, thank him that he comes and then just really encourage him when he starts, you know, mentioning, hey, maybe I was wrong here. Praise that. Praise God. Don't be like, see, I told you. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, but just really, really encouraged. Guys, I tell women this all the time, no female athlete wants a cheerleader on the sideline, but yet all these male sports, we have female cheerleaders. And why is that? Because guys need encouragement. And who does it come from?
Matthew Stephen Brown:From a woman. And and we I just wish ladies knew how powerful their encouragement was. Okay. Next one. Here we go.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know who's going first. Is it you? Okay, okay, yeah, poor poor Tammy. So, Annie, thank you. I have no idea how to say that name.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Do you guys? Roanoke. Roanoke? Mhmm. Is that Canada?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Virginia. Oh, Virginia. Okay. Annie, thank you for your question, I really appreciate it. Is oral sex permissible in a loving, committed marriage?
Matthew Stephen Brown:So for those of you listening, thank you for the extra details. Loving, committed marriage. Those are important because I think that's gonna play into how you answer this, Tammy.
Tami Miller:First, I wanna start with everybody really listening to this and and what Matt pointed out is important because nobody should ever feel forced to do anything sexual.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tami Miller:Okay. I really want you to hear that. So the loving committed is much different. And even if there's a loving committed relationship, there could be some sort of history of trauma for 1 or both of you that could be around any type of sex, oral sex, any anything. You'd be surprised, what could be a trigger for somebody.
Tami Miller:Yeah. And if that's the case and that is your spouse or that is you, that needs to be talked about. And sometimes, you can't reclaim that as your own. Mhmm. Sometimes, it's so severe that you just I use the word reclaim, like, we'll we'll try to get couples to say, can you reclaim this and and be able to overcome the trauma and sometimes you can't.
Tami Miller:Okay. So I wanted to point that out first. But if it is loving and it's committed and you both feel safe, and there's no other interference from trauma or maybe history of pornography that you're questioning, that if you feel safe and it feels loving. Yes.
Brad Miller:Wow. You wanna go over me? Okay. You I'm gonna hear you first.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So so I think I just, man, I just thank God that Tammy's on this podcast. I think that, you know, like like she said, so the Bible says, and we're we're doing a series called Love Is and Is It May, because I think love needs to be defined. So what we do in our culture is we define it by itself, love is love and like that's not very helpful. So what the Bible does is it doesn't say love is love, it says love is.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And one of the things it says is that it never demands its own way. And so, you know, in a marriage, you know, there can be, you know, things that, you know, one spouse could be more, what would you say, creative in the way that they want to have sex and one could be less,
Brad Miller:more conservative.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. More conservative. Thank you. And that's okay. And so what you have to do is you have
Brad Miller:to learn to meet each other
Matthew Stephen Brown:where you're comfortable at. And especially, like, if Tammy said, if there's trauma there, you really, really need to work through that. And part of loving your spouse is loving them no matter what's happened to them. And, you know, sex is something I get to do with Tammy. It's not something she has to do.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so it's something that I am very appreciative of. And it's the coming together of 2 people in love where we're not demanding, you know, our own way. And when, you know, you look at so much of, you know, sex in Hollywood, right, you know, the whips and the chains and the pain, and I'm always like, man, that is that is not the purpose of sex. You know, and I just pray for people who can only experience pleasure through pain. I'm like, okay.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You need you need therapy there. And so what I would just do is, you know, feel free in marriage to express your desires, but your desires can't manipulate, can't press, can't force. It's something that needs to be done. And in some marriages, oral sex is just not going to happen. And you just have to be not only okay with that, but celebrate that in the sex that you do get to have because everybody's different.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, and again, for those who have viewed pornography, you know, I viewed pornography probably starting, I don't know, age 11 to 22, that's not something that my wife, you know, had. And so what pornography does is it puts ideas in your head that are not normal because there's a director saying, do this. And so, we got to get that director out of our minds for those of us who have viewed pornography, get him out of the room and then just say, okay, what does this look like for us to connect? Because this is about you 2 coming together in marriage and that's just so important. So,
Brad Miller:yeah, I'll kick
Matthew Stephen Brown:it off to you.
Brad Miller:So I also love, you pointed out loving committed marriage. I I'm assuming that this also is a loving committed Christian marriage. Mhmm. And I would say with that, and you touched on this, Matt, that there is a purpose. I I think it's hard for a lot of believers to understand that God intended a purpose for physical intimacy in a Christian marriage.
Brad Miller:God has a purpose for sex. And it's not, the culture would say it's just for me. It's it's so I can enjoy something. But God has a purpose and that purpose is oneness. Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And
Brad Miller:so then back to the question about oral sex. It really is, is this about oneness or is this about one person demanding their own way at the expense of shame of the other person or whatever. So I'd say start with that question. What is the purpose? What is God's intended purpose for physical intimacy to bring you together?
Brad Miller:And, this is not this next comment is not intended as a, you know, read into it sort of thing but one of the interesting things about us as humans is we are the only ones that make love face to face. Yeah. And so don't Eye
Tami Miller:to eye. Mouth them out.
Brad Miller:Breath to breath. Skin to skin. There's there's something Isn't
Tami Miller:that amazing?
Brad Miller:There's something deeply and profoundly moving about that. And and we, as believers, should not miss that.
Tami Miller:And the world tries to tell us that's boring.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tami Miller:But yet it truly is the most intimate way, eye to eye, breath to
Matthew Stephen Brown:breath. Yes. Yeah. I love it. So this is gonna be a little crude.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But I think that, especially if there's if there's attention over oral sex, have the conversation you don't wanna have. Like, for example, ladies tell your husband to wash, Like, you stink. You know? And so we just we just have to be aware of that, that if we have expectations, you know, we need to communicate. And and intimacy is great, but it's also hard and difficult sometimes to be like, hey, your breath stinks.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, do I have something in my teeth? And my wife's like, in all of your teeth.
Brad Miller:There's something in all of your teeth.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, isn't that great? All 7 of them. Yeah. My gums are just receding. My gums
Brad Miller:are like, we're
Matthew Stephen Brown:done. So to have those conversations and, like you made the comment about trimming your nails and I thought, oh man, come on guys, like wash, shave, you know, present yourself in a way that someone would want to be close to you. And so, you know, have those conversations and and and and and just talk about that. And and intimacy is difficult. And oftentimes, the thing that's keeping you from intimacy is conversation and the conversation you don't wanna have.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so say that appropriately at the right time, but just say, look, you know, this is something that that we wanna do, you know, let let's clean up, guys, you know, if you take a shower before you come home from the gym. So
Brad Miller:Love that. Love that. We we really love to encourage couples to have conversations about physical intimacy because they don't. It's sort of like that thing that we turn off the lights, we do it, nobody says a word. Don't don't say a word every day.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So I know. Yep. Alright. Okay, last question. Annie again, man, she is busy today.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes, she is. Annie Moss, how can I help my wife who manages our home finances to understand, that tithing is non negotiable for me, even though she doesn't agree? This is interesting, usually it's the opposite. In almost every case, I don't know if we could go back to the things, it's the husband. And so this is just so good for us to realize that, you know, it can be either.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So, I recently discovered that she hasn't been consistently tithing on our behalf and that she didn't inform me. There's a lot going on here that isn't just about tithing. So I'm interested to hear how you guys talk about this.
Brad Miller:I'll jump in. Sure. So gosh, Tammy. I talk about this all the time, which is that a husband and wife should should should seek to be united in all things. Be on the same team.
Brad Miller:Super Bowl was recently, you know, get jerseys and be on be on the same team. You have to live on the same team. This means tithing. This means finances. This means compromise at times for the benefit of the team.
Brad Miller:You know, Jesus often answered a question with a question, I'm not Jesus, but I I think that's a really good approach. So I'm gonna answer with a question which is, would God prefer a divorced tither or a married non tither?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:I mean, what do you what do you think? What do you think, pastor? Married
Matthew Stephen Brown:non tither.
Brad Miller:Right? So, you know, yes. The the point was made that you could be missing out on God's blessings. Yes. I I think that's absolutely true.
Brad Miller:But, again, you have to get on the same page. And, you heard pastor Matt say it today that God would rather have a married non tither.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that's And I would say this for all of our singles. This is why I don't know if singles are just like, as on marriage, I'm not listening. This is why and if you're if you're a married person, tell your single people to listen to this. Because there are so many things that we don't talk about in dating that become problems in marriage. And one of the things is, you know, what are your expectations for sex?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Another is money. Like, I mean, sex, money and kids, you guys could probably say like those 3 are the big, big icebergs that sink the Titanic of your marriage. And so so one of the things I would talk about and be clear on is, what are the expectations of of of giving to the local church? And then I would just, I wouldn't just look for the bumper sticker. Yeah, I would say, okay, what if money's tight?
Matthew Stephen Brown:What if you're stressed? What does this look like if we, you know, if we have to, if we go through a difficult time, what do we do? Because there's, yeah, I think in tithing, which if we don't press, as long as there's money. Well, I don't know of a couple of our church who couldn't use an extra 10% somewhere. So I would just say, if I'm a dating couple, I would have this conversation.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And then the next conversation is, I just really think this is the huge part, she didn't inform me. That's the part that bothers me the most as a couple. Because what that means is there's hiding that takes place. And I don't like that anywhere at any time. I just don't like, I would not be happy to find out that my wife had been hiding anything from me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That would just make me feel like, okay, what are we doing here?
Brad Miller:I don't - Darkness, that's secrets. I don't want
Matthew Stephen Brown:to live a secret life. I don't want to be hiding things from you. I don't want you hiding things from me. So the bigger issue to me, Annie, is the hiding rather than the tithing. And so, so here's how I would work this.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I would start there. Hey, I feel really upset that you kept this from me. This is not what I want to have. But then you got to make sure that she feels free to express her disagreement. Absolutely.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Because right, if you're just a man and you said it and that's the way it is, well, there's no conversation there. So then I would say is how do you compromise and what is the number, that she can agree on, 2%, 4%, 5% with the goal and just say, hey, eventually I wanna get to 10%. This is my conviction. Where are you, able to meet me in this? And then you can hold her accountable to that because then you circle back and you say, okay, hey, we agreed to this.
Matthew Stephen Brown:If there's plenty of money to tithe and it's just that I don't theologically agree with that, then you're going to have to figure out, because not all Christians agree on the principle of tithing. They just don't. I agree on it. I think that's where you guys are theologically. I just decided when I read Malachi 3 and I said, okay, the Lord is going to bless tithing.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, I read that and I went, that's for me. It's settled it. So it's not a matter of whether I have to. When God says he blesses something, I'm going to do that because I feel like that's why wouldn't I want that in my life? And so, you know, that's something that I don't feel like Tammy and I have to do.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's something that we get to do where we receive the blessings of God. And I have lived, I have lived a life of blessing and we have been tithers for, it'd be 28 years, you know, in a couple of weeks. So, and we've tithed when we had money, we tied when we didn't have money. And, and now we give over and above that because I mean, our kids are grown, my girls are married, we're almost through college. Like we have more discretionary income and even and I want people to listen to this, Even if I want to give to a charity or something, I give it through our church.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's why, I don't need the credit and I want Jesus to get the credit. So if there's somebody that needs money, man, I wanna run that through the church because I want people to know that I am giving this, not because I'm a good person. I am giving this because Jesus is amazing and he's changed my life. And I want the church to be a funnel of my financial blessings. So if I'm going to help an orphanage, if I'm going to help, you know, you name it, I fund it through the church.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't give money to the Red Cross. I give money to Sandals. Sandals gives the money to, Convoy of Hope. Right? And Convoy of Hope, when that money hits the ground in Ukraine, in wherever, it's in the name of Jesus, unapologetically in the name of Jesus.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The Red Cross forgot the cross. Okay? They forgot it. And it was a great organization, but it's not now. And I want people to know.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So so so that's where I am. And so I believe that generosity should flow through the church, man. And, and so anyways, I'll be praying for you. Money's always an issue. Tammy and I, we did have to talk about money the day.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I was like, look, man, the credit card is a little crazy. And what I didn't realize is she had paid for a bunch of stuff for the church on her credit card. It's just like $12. I'm like, hey girl, like, I don't know what's going on here.
Brad Miller:It's a good thing you're donating to the church. But we need to have
Matthew Stephen Brown:a talk about this. And so she was putting a bunch of, we're redoing the offices at and she put a bunch of stuff on our credit card.
Brad Miller:So I was like, okay, that's fine. But this feels like a,
Matthew Stephen Brown:you know, I'm like, you know, why is this much money at IKEA? Like, what is happening? So are we selling drugs? What is going on? So, you know, I think those are hard conversations.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would say this, you know, Tammy and I struggled for about 10 years with money, paying bills specifically. And for her, she's a 6th on Enneagram, so she operates out of fear. That's just kind of a scarcity mentality. And I had to earn her trust and say, okay, because my mentality was I can make
Brad Miller:more money. Like, okay, I
Matthew Stephen Brown:can do this. So what we're gonna give to the church, and so what I would just do is is how can you make her feel comfortable? I talked way too long.
Tami Miller:No. You did great. I actually just gonna tie both yours and Brad's responses together.
Brad Miller:It's gonna be good. Yeah. Yeah.
Tami Miller:I also saw the glaring problem was that there's there's a secret
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tami Miller:And they're not united is what Brad said. So I would say press into that first instead of accusing her Yes. And saying deal breakers, you know how I feel about this and towering over it. Seek to understand. Help me to understand first why you feel like you need to skip tiding.
Tami Miller:Mhmm. Sometimes I wanna understand. Mhmm. Because if you go in with this is not how it's supposed to be, then she's just gonna wanna hide more. Not that that's right.
Tami Miller:I'm not condoning that, but it's glaring to me that obviously there's a there's something going on where she doesn't feel like she's not she can't share those things with you possibly or there could be something else. But press in, give her grace, and just seek to understand. Yeah.
Brad Miller:Yeah. Can Can I add one one quick thing? Actually something you said, Matt, really made me think about this. One of the benefits that Tammy and I get from working with other couples is things come out of that. Like, we talked about bumping into somebody's brokenness.
Brad Miller:That came out of working with somebody else. We were working with a couple one time and, the wife said to the husband, she said, I just want to be invited to have a voice in these situations. Such powerful words and such a a beautiful way to kind of ease into that. So anybody who's married, knows there's something that you're terrified about having a conversation over. Start with inviting your spouse to have a voice.
Brad Miller:I think it's just a really great place to start those conversations. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Okay. Last question. Shelley, from Instagram. Thank you, Shelley, for sending in your Instagram question.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I really really appreciate that. And for everybody who has sent those questions, thank you for being so brave and posting that question. It takes a lot of courage to do that. How does marriage survive when their spouse is incarcerated? Wow, this is a heavy one.
Matthew Stephen Brown:There's a definite lack of resources like counseling. Oh, man. I'm so sorry, Shelley. What do you guys think? That's a huge question.
Tami Miller:Mhmm. It's a big question. This one was one we didn't get to look at ahead of time.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Sorry.
Tami Miller:It's okay. Maddie told us a little bit about it. But, that is a hard, hard situation, and so you don't have those resources, but you do outside of that. So seeking support, how can you seek support for yourself? How can you still love and and, you know, pray for your husband, who's incarcerated and But you you need lots of support.
Tami Miller:You need lots of figuring out when he's out. I'm hoping he does get out one day. That what your life can look like. And but there is counseling for you.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's huge. And I would just say this, so so so the the key question is how long? Like, because, you know, it's not just prison, our military families. Like, we have husbands that have to go away from their wives for a year, like, and I just, I don't think we think about that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, it's like every time, you know, president Biden's getting ready to make a decision, I think about all the wives in our church. I think about all the the kids in our church that if he makes decision a, then dad is gone for up to 14 months. And that is a lot of pressure on a family. And so, you know, Shelly, this is something that, you know, you know, forced separation either through incarceration or, you know, military is something that families have to deal with. And so what I would look into, and I don't know this, if there's a support group for that, I don't know if there is, I'm going to reach out to SoulCare and I'll have our debrief team get back to you to see if there's something specifically for that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But there's no shame at Sandals Church. His crime is not your crime. We're here for you and we want to help you. And, we do have couples in our church where spouses have spent time in jail and they have a thriving, healthy marriage. My big question here would be, you know, is this a 20 year incarceration, 30 year incarceration?
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, what does that look like? Because now we're talking about a lifetime, or is this a year or 5 years? You know, what is that and how can we help you, negotiate that? And so there are significant challenges here, but so the question of how, I don't know how, but what we can say is as a church, we're here for you and we wanna come and walk alongside you, to help you get through this situation. And we'll be praying for you, and I'm so sorry that this has happened, but incarceration is a real deal.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Yeah. It's difficult.
Brad Miller:I I would just add that, think about some parents in this situation will have a tendency to overcompensate and some will have a tendency to undercompensate. And for the kids involved, they don't know what it looks like to have a normal. Yeah. So again, I think that's one of the beautiful things about what God intended for the church is there are people, there are men, for example, that would love to take your kids fishing or or, you know, taking them to the park and learn how to throw a ball or
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:Whatever it is. But, try to be engaged with other people, church community is preferred, and figure out what sort of a normal looks like and do your best to kind of replicate that so you're not overcompensating or undercompensating. Yeah. Yeah. We've seen both happen.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's a great word. Alright, man. I appreciate the Millers. Once again, if you guys wanna get involved with marriage, go to sandalschurch dotcomforward/marriage.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Look at that. It's almost like a professional.
Tami Miller:You are professional.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So thank you guys so much. I'm going to be praying. And for everybody listening, please be praying for our marriages at Sandals Church and be praying for the Millers as they lead just such an important ministry at our church. So we love you guys. Thank you for listening, and, hopefully, you tune in next week.
Outro:Thanks for listening to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown. If you enjoyed this episode, consider liking, subscribing, and sharing it with a friend. If you would like to submit a question to pastor Matt, you can do so at move.sc/ask. And if you would like to support the work we are doing, consider donating at donate.sc. Thank you again, and have a blessed day.