Jurassic Park Part 2 - Michael Crichton - Thriller Book - Science Fiction Book

In this episode of The Side Quest Book Club Podcast, hosts Slava and Jonathan (again) dive into Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton. This conversation delves into themes, character development, and the implications of hubris and chaos theory. The hosts discuss the narrative structure that keeps readers engaged. They analyze the illusion of control and the importance of subplots, ultimately reflecting on the storytelling techniques that make the novel a classic.

(00:00) Introduction Return to Jurassic Park’s Chaos
(05:51) The Unfolding Disaster
(12:16) The T-Rex Encounter
(21:26) Nedry’s Downfall
(29:14) The Search for Nedry
(35:01) The T-Rex Rampage
(39:40) Deus Ex Machina in Jurassic Park?
(42:00) Chaos Theory & Nature’s Unpredictability
(45:04) Control vs. Collapse in Jurassic Park
(48:51) Hammond’s Denial & Hubris
(52:50) Final Showdown: Nature vs. Human Ambition
(57:04) Aftermath: Responsibility & Consequences
(01:01:06) The End of the Park: A New Beginning?
(01:03:59) Thriller vs. Horror: Understanding the Genres

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

SLAVA (00:00.344)
Coming to you from the Endless Library, where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves.

Welcome back. Where the power's out, the fences are down, and now it's no longer a park. It's a hut. From dino to human. We are on part two of Jurassic Park, wrapping up Michael Crichton's thriller. Let's get into it. Slava, give us a quick recap of what we discussed about the book last time.

Well, we got right into it last time and the novel began with a, I would say, a foreboding introduction. It begins right away in the prologue and I think it's even called the introduction before we get to the prologue of sorts. It warns about the dangers of unchecked and profit-driven scientific advancement and particularly in the field of biotechnology. So in the first iteration,

we immediately establish that something is wrong. The story tells us, gives us a sense of suspense and foreshadows disaster. An injured man, an in-gen employee is rushed to a medical clinic in Costa Rica with severe lacerations. But his colleague, Ed Riggis, denies it was a dinosaur attack. Denies it was an attack of anything, it was an accident apparently. Though the victim utters Losaraptor.

before dying. Soon after, reports surface of strange lizards attacking infants in their cribs. A young girl on vacation named Tina is attacked by one such lizard which walks on its hind legs and chirps. A technician, Alice Levin, suggests the creature resembles a dinosaur, but her theory is dismissed by the lab head, Dr. Richard Stone. She's made fun of, kind of, but that's another foreshadow that, hey,

SLAVA (02:00.798)
Alice is right, and this section hints that these lizards are in fact the dinosaurs that originated from Hammond's very safe, very good, big beautiful park. The mystery gradually unfolds, paralleling the concept of fractal geometry, where details emerge and the fractal becomes complete, which means dinosaurs eating people. In the second iteration, part two,

We're introduced to a few key characters, Dr. Alan Grant, a paleontologist, Dr. Elise Sattler, also a paleontologist, who are on an expedition in Montana. John Hammond visits them, convinced them to come to the park. He wants to show them the park. Basically what he wants to do is he wants to get experts to back him up so publicly everything looks when they open up and the investors are calmed, their fears are assuaded.

That's kind of Hammond's chess move here. They are joined by Ian Malcolm, a mathematician specializing in chaos theory who is openly hostile to the project because he believes the park is destined to fail due to its inherent unpredictability. We have a lawyer who also accompanies them to assess the park's safety after hearing a worker attacks and possible escape lizards. And of course, as every nutbag

millionaire with a an ego complex he invites his grandchildren Hammond Hammond invites his grandchildren Tim and Lex Murphy to demonstrate the park safety which is you know of course is what you do meanwhile

offers as human sacrifice to the island

SLAVA (03:45.666)
Yeah, that's what do. Meanwhile, Dennis Nedry, the park's programmer, is secretly bribed by Biocin, a rival company to steal dinosaur embryos. So here we go. It's already starting and we're not even a third of the way through the book. We ended on the third iteration. The group begins their tour with Sattler immediately noticing poisonous plants carelessly placed, indicating a lack of careful planning.

Grant and Settler become increasingly aware of the danger. They're observing the reinforced fences, the rooms, so they already know, like, all right, why do we need these fences? Why do we need offices that look like bomb bunkers? And the lawyer, Gennaro, expresses his concern about containment, prompting Malcolm to assert that the dinosaurs have likely escaped and the nature, and that nature cannot be isolated, which of course, angers Hammond.

Malcolm makes more keen observations that raptors being as intelligent as chimpanzees, they could learn to become man killers. There's a discussion we briefly touched upon last episode where animals only learn to kill and eat humans when humans are introduced into an environment, specifically animals who have never seen humans. So as the third iteration ends, the escalating chaos

culminates as Lex spots two raptors on a boat heading for a mainland using night vision goggles. So Hammond wants to give the visitors night vision goggles so they can, you know, when they're visiting at night, they can look at the raptors in the forest, I guess, or in the jungle. While this is happening, Dennis Nedry executes his plan. He shuts down the park's power and security systems to steal the embryos and inadvertently turning off all the electric fences and trapping everyone.

And, done, Malcolm's prediction of an edible chaos begin to unfold. And here we are at the forefront of that chaos in part four.

JONATHAN (05:51.682)
Yes. Well, the park fails gracefully until it doesn't. So there's that. And also if you're Nedry, how dumb can you be like, let me, let me turn off everything. you're, if you have programming knowledge and the keys to the kingdom, what are you doing? And I suppose that's what Crichton's getting at, right? Where

Well you gotta look at it this way. He is stealing 15 embryos and getting $50,000 a pop.

which is a quarter of a million dollars, 750,000.

Right. And in 1989, 1990, that's a nice chunk of change. And obviously he's driven by greed. Just like Hammond is, well, Hammond has a lot of hubris and some other brain deficiencies, but greed is the main driver here.

Well, suppose that's the downfall of a park when you prioritize greed over the safety, the, you know, experiment that is building dinosaurs, all in one foul swoop. Like I'm thinking, I'm thinking like through Nedry, if you're so smart that you've programmed this whole park, but you're so dumb that you're like, let me just turn everything off. You're like,

JONATHAN (07:08.254)
He's been there for nearly five years working on this project and he has to have had encounters and heard about like some of the guards and whoever else for the zoo, zookeepers being eaten or injured or whatever.

Right.

And so you'd think, Hey, maybe I need to create a better plan. You know, I think on the surface level without picking it apart with that's funny without picking it apart, without picking it apart, makes sense. Hey, just shut everything off, slip in, slip out. No big deal. But I think when you think about it for 10 minutes, five minutes, or in our case, you know, weeks.

It, because we record these week after week, it, kind of falls apart if you, if you like sit in his character and kind of extrapolate like his experience, right? Prior to the story where he's been there for five years, he's heard about, he has to have heard about the injuries and damages from losing human lives. Like it just has to be there. Yes. Which is where it's like, well, then you're, you're just an idiot. You know, the unique, your plan should have been a little more

Absolutely.

JONATHAN (08:25.248)
thought out just a little bit.

I like how Malcom, well Crichton through Malcom sets this up as doomed to fail. To continue your train of thought, this is where step by step any system and the system that is the park, the system that is the investors and the people within the park, their own little micro systems, everything's working together. This is like the fractal

geometry that Malcolm is using, he says something, I'm going to paraphrase it, he says something that every system is on a path. Everything that happens is on a path, eventually reaching a ledge or a steep incline where flaws become so severe that the system in response to it speeds up its descent into greater and greater instability. What I mean by that is Hammond does not see

the flaws in the system and Nedry is one of those things and Malcolm understands this because of the sheer scope of this plan of the system it's doomed to fail faster than anything he already has history with Hammond so he knows what Hammond is all about he understands his character and how flawed it is and immediately Crichton through Nedry says not only are the lizards off the island internally there are problems that are

pushing this park to the brink of collapse. Nedra is just a cog in the machine for all intents and purposes, but he's the one that pushes it off the ledge. The ledge was reached when kids were being eaten in their cribs.

JONATHAN (10:15.17)
Probably a little bit before that, but yes, I think that that was the leap off the ledge in terms of like Wile E. Coyote chasing the road runner, right? Road runner being, I want to launch this park. I want to recreate dinosaurs. Wile E. Coyote being the hubris of Hammond and scientists and that whole shtick. Malcolm is basically describing entropy where every system has a degradation of energy.

over time, unless it's re recategorized. It's not exactly entropy because he's talking about complex systems breaking down, because of the, the sheer number of variables. And to your point, like humans are vast variables. We're basically meat bags full of emotions and the emotions are dictated by chemicals. So do it, do with that what you will, but Nedry is a.

You know what I'm realizing as I'm saying this? Nedry needs a reason to want that money. I think.

that's exactly it.

But like, he's- he's- greed is fine, but I would- I would like, you know, he's just so sick of Hammond, and we kind of get that, but yeah, people are greedy. Whatever. Get off my little soapbox. It's little because I'm humble. I actually won an award last week for being the most humble person.

SLAVA (11:41.504)
Where?

Ha ha.

I made it myself.

I was gonna ask what set of ignorant meat bags gave you... No, I'm too good for that.

coming up

SLAVA (11:58.466)
You heard me. But let's get into maybe some of the plot points here in part four. Because here's where crap starts coming off the rails and fast. Kids are stuck in the car. There's no electricity. Fences are down and dinosaurs are roaming about.

They are roaming.

It is stranded until the electricity is fixed and then suddenly the ground shakes and a giant animal runs across the road behind the two vehicles. Nobody manages to see what it was. Tim, our little dinosaur buddy, turns around and sees a figure behind the fence. He starts to look upward and realizes he's staring right at the T-Rex who's staring right back at him. And here's like the the cinematic section of the book.

lightning strikes and the t-rex bellows in the glaring light quote unquote that's page 2000 page 2003 page 203 teams it's a long book strap in so tim sees the t-rex move towards the fence and it now dawns on the group that the fence which holds the massive dinosaur inside like keeps him at bay is not powered so we have the weakling the coward

often is put into stories Regis he's terrified the most he starts to violently shake knowing he could be ripped apart even worse than the men who died at the hands of the Raptors or the little claws of the Raptors if you will then the T-Rex lets out another scream that's described as a scream from another world and Regis can

SLAVA (13:44.046)
handle it anymore. gets out of the Land Cruiser, runs off into the woods at full speed, leaving the two kids alone. What a stand-up guy. Good guy. Lex begins screaming and Tim tries to radio Grant to let him know that Regis is gone. The children lock all the doors and now they are contained in the car with a big old dyno. What an insatiable taste for a man meat is right outside their car.

Hey boss, I know you told me to watch your grandkids, but I decided that I was too afraid of the dinosaurs you made, so I decided to leave them in the care of the dino. Well, I ran away. I thought that the dino might be, you know, more experienced in babysitting than I am. So I, I made the judgment call here.

Good good, no, in the Dino's defense, it seems very interested in getting the kids out of a car. Because you can't leave kids inside of a car. It's hot, the car's not on, they could die of heat exposure or heat stroke. Yeah. So it begins to tear the car apart. The T-Rex is trying to get these kids out. Meanwhile, in the other car, because the T-Rex only has little hands so it can't do much. Very little hands. They're watching horrors, the vehicle with the children.

Right, aren't open.

JONATHAN (14:51.628)
Yes, of course. Yeah.

SLAVA (15:06.658)
gets thrown into the bush. Malcolm decides to bolt, but for a different reason, not because he's a coward. Malcolm decides to bolt, but he is picked up by the T-Rex almost immediately and tossed into the air like a small doll. Grant gets out of the car, but instead of running, he stands perfectly still. The T-Rex apparently cannot see him, but senses his presence and it's

times.

SLAVA (15:34.432)
It tries to get Grant to run by using the volume of its roar. So it begins to roar hoping that it will cause Grant to do something and it can maybe eat Grant instead of the children. But Grant remains still and the T-Rex becomes frustrated and starts thrashing the other land crews. know, typical babysitters. Can't trust them.

Yes, always shaking the babies or biting them in half.

Since Grant is next to it, he is flung into the air and crashes on the ground. boom, chapter one of part four ends and we get a small glimpse into what Sattler is doing. So Harding, Sattler and Giroiro get ready to head back to the lodges in the storm. At this point, I don't think they know what the hell's going on. Power goes out briefly in the control room, turns back in moments to everybody's relief and

Arnold, he's one of the technicians there, he starts to wonder where the hell is Nedry?

Fair question, a fair question.

SLAVA (16:35.66)
He sends guards to check for him and Nedry, very fair question, because Nedry is the only one who knows how to get the system up and running. What the hell?

Seems like an oversight.

seems like a boomer who started a company and hired his nephew to run all the IT systems. And his nephew's like a deadbeat. So here's what we have. Same thing here, slightly different context, but one guy knows how to run the system. And well, here we are. Yep. And where is Nedry, you ask? Well, Nedry, we find this out in the next chapter, he's speeding through the jungle, so the park.

Yes.

SLAVA (17:21.758)
on his way to the dock and then what there's a wall here he begins to spinning frantically trying to avoid hitting it realizing he took the wrong turn he begins to panic he gets out of the jeep and he hears soft hooting

Woohoo! Woohoo!

and he realizes it is a dilophosaurus. He doesn't realize this.

Classic the classic de la Fasores owl conundrum

Right, right. So we know it's a Dilophosaurus. This dumbass thinks it's just a giant owl. It's the same type of dinosaurs that the Tours saw earlier, right? So it's this V-crested head. It snaps its neck and spits on Nedry. Clueless to what is happening, I have it here in my summary because Nedry is obviously clueless. He's disgusted. Yes. He's disgusted. like, this spitting owl.

SLAVA (18:21.238)
He's touching him?

Spitting out. Yes.

He starts touching his face and lo and behold, what is it on his face? It's venom.

Poison or that's right venom and poison are different venom is from the outside coming in poison is ingested from like food, right?

So if he had eaten this owl, he would have been poisoned. But now he's getting venom thrown in his face. It keeps happening again. It hits him in the neck. Nedry's hands begin to tingle and burn. He runs in front of the jeep. Wow. But then turns around to look at the dinosaurs and gets sprayed in the eyes. Instantly blind. Dude is done. He's stumbling around.

JONATHAN (19:09.483)
This guy's cuck.

and then literal he is stabbed punctured his well whatever his stomach is punctured by the delaphaeosaurus and he looks down he's holding his own guts and he begins to pray and then his head is chopped by chopped up by the dinosaurs jaw

suddenly decided he believes in God.

Well, at this point, I think anybody would start praying to whatever they believe God is. Because listen, you're blind and you're holding your guts and everything burns. But good on you. Yeah. I guess you're not getting that quarter of a million dollars or whatever, three quarters of a million dollars.

Three quarter, 750. But this is, this is precisely my point. You're telling me that the, all of the people required to make this place run don't talk to each other. And there are not rumors of like, Hey, these dinosaurs are actually, surprise, surprise, dangerous. People are dying. People are getting injured. The med bay. You tell me the med bay isn't like, Hey, trying to shut this place down. Again, this is after you think about it for a couple of weeks in the middle of reading it, you're like, Oh man, what's going on?

JONATHAN (20:17.494)
You pick it apart a little bit and you go, could have been fleshed out a little more. Now who, you know, we've said this before, who might've talked, this guy's got a published book. He's a well-known author. He's gotten movies made. what did we say last time that this is the 23rd largest grossing IP in intellectual property. Right. So who might've talked, but in terms of like, you made an island full of dinosaurs.

But perhaps greed and hubris are simply so blind. Which I kinda like that Nedry goes blind because of his greed and I just believe that Crichton put it in there on purpose. Right, like his greed blinded him so now he's blinded by venom. I don't know if you caught that but...

I did him but that's a good catch on your part.

Fair, So, the classic Dilophosaurus hooting owl conundrum. sometimes I mix them up too. Well, you made it this far.

Why not go a step further? It helps more than you think.

JONATHAN (21:18.786)
Rate the show.

SLAVA (21:26.1)
After Nedry's demise, and a pretty gruesome one, well deserved demise, we also get Grant's and the children's journey through the brush. Grant finds Tim and Lex, they've been knocked out, and the three of them narrowly escape, witnessing Ed Regis being mauled and devoured by an infant T-Rex. That was fun. Grant, using his expertise because he is a...

Dinosaur doctor a paleontologist helps the children navigate the dangerous park they endure stampedes they avoid carnivores and finally find some shelter and through these terrifying experiences Grant lost his wife. I think a few years ago and never had children he develops a Strong father like bond with Tim and Lex. Yep, and this kind of gives him

a sense of purpose, the only way I could word it. And, you know, what is confirmed on the more scientific end of it is they discover that the T-Rex only sees things that are in motion. Otherwise it's virtually as useless as Nedry, you know, after being attacked by an owl. Right. Yeah. And as we go through this fourth iteration,

Yes. Venomous owls.

SLAVA (22:51.438)
we have Malcolm's effect and Hammond's denial coming together, right? They're bumping heads, if you will. So Malcolm effect has been proven to be true, especially in this case, but Hammond continues to remain in a state of denial, disconnected, completely disconnected from the unfolding disaster. He expresses more concern for not living, and I quote,

to see the joy on the children's faces in his parks than for the immediate danger of his freaking grandchildren. Believing the park's problems, again quote, are a mere glitch on the radar of a very successful venture, Jonathan. And Arnold, I think this is his last name, but Arnold, the chief engineer who was looking for Nedry just a few pages ago, is struggling to restore the power due to Nedry's messed up code.

Checks out.

JONATHAN (23:37.055)
yes.

SLAVA (23:49.292)
So, not only is he inept at stealing and living a normal life, he's also inept at the job he was given. And I forget if the code was messed up on purpose or he's just an inept coder.

It's both. he, he built a back door in called white rabbit and turn it into an object. But then they're like, this isn't an object. It's actually a Q or not Q a, a system override, right back door for himself.

Yes. Yep.

SLAVA (24:17.048)
That's right. So as we end part four, iteration four, what we have is an escalation in the instability. Like if it couldn't get any worse, it's getting worse. The power is briefly restored, then defaults to the auxiliary power, meaning the electrical fences, the electric fences, remain off for hours. We jump quickly to grant towards the end of this section.

and Grant notices a foul smell from a sick stegosaurus, realizing that the dinosaurs are prone to disease and the diseases of this world specifically. Hammond introduces this new creature, an old creature, but a new creature into this world and it begins dying because it's not built up any immune resistance to the diseases of the current world, 1980s world.

As all this unfolds, think it's clear, part four shows us a clear demonstration that Malcolm was right all along. Not that we had any doubts as the readers, I hope he didn't. Even if we're coming into this blind, hopefully we understand that dinosaurs are gonna do dinosaur things and Malcolm is the guy that's warning us. And so one thing leads up to another and absolute chaos.

on Isla Nublar is where we're left at the end of part four.

So this gets back to what I've been chirping on, kind of this whole episode, right? Like, and maybe I'm saying that Jurassic park is not actually that great of a book. So let's just, let's just call it what it is because of my nitpicking in the five years of developing these dinos, they haven't seen any diseases. They didn't know this until now. Do you know what I'm saying?

SLAVA (26:11.926)
I think they ignored it. I think they ignored it. I totally get what you're getting at and I think it's a very good point. Could be a plot hole, but I think they just ignored it.

This plot hole makes Jurassic Park as a book completely terrible. Like, first book. I know that people complain about the other movies and books and things like that, but like, this... Because then the dinos are just dead. Like, they can't become two years old as a dino because they're just dying of diseases.

Yeah, and they built in the genetic code they built in they wouldn't live as long as a normal dino would so maybe No, that doesn't work either. I understand what you're saying. I think that is a pretty glaring plot hole

So we know from, I don't remember which scientist it is, they talk, he's talking about like, Hey, we need to change the iteration. Let's do version four of the dinos where we make them real, but docile. And Hamid is, saying, I don't want to do that because these are real dinos. And he's like, you don't even know what a real dino is. You're an idiot. Like these are millions of years old creatures and we've brought them back. So like, you don't know what this is. This isn't the right thing. Cause we're filling in the gaps with frog DNA.

And so maybe, cause I'm just thinking about the commenters, they might say, Hey, you know, while they, had iterations and it didn't work. so they're on iteration three and the guy wants to do iteration four. So they've seen diseases and this is the best that they've gotten. But the way that it's spelled out in the story is that they haven't discovered this yet. At least that's how I read it.

SLAVA (27:54.744)
But I'm gonna give some grace to Creighton for two reasons. One is practical, meaning that he had to introduce another flaw in the system and this was his way. But I'm going to assume that they either knew or missed it because of their incompetence. Because if you have a guy who, well if you have a guy like Arnold and you have a guy like Nedry, they're not the most endearing characters, even though Arnold is.

not a bad guy quote unquote but they really don't know what they're doing and you have the scientists who know what they're doing but they are being pressured by Hammond to keep moving and moving forward and I think the diseases were probably known by them but ignored they probably thought yeah iteration four five six and seven the the owls will stop dying of weird diseases and we'll get there eventually

And that could have been said, I'll give you this completely. This is, you know, points to you. Karaitan could have made that known. And if he did and we missed it, let us know in the comments.

Yes, I agree, but we don't need to, to quote you belabor the point. Let's keep going through iteration five and, I'll find another reason to bring up the same point.

Part 5, 5th of the narration, Chapter 1, search. Who are they searching for? They're searching for Nedry. Arnold, Radios Gennaro, and Muldoon to tell them that he's found Nedry's location because of the Jeep. GPS and all, guess. Muldoon and Gennaro drive to the spot where the Jeep is sitting. So they find the Jeep. And Nedry is being devoured by dinosaurs. Muldoon grabs the rocket.

SLAVA (29:44.504)
from the back of the Jeep, have like little mini rocket launchers, and he tries to take down the dinosaurs. They ask Arnold if they can see the T-Rex, but the dinosaur is not showing up on the system at all. Dun dun dun. In the park, Grant and the kids hear screaming in the distance and decide to stop to find a place to hide for safety and to see if any phones are working, which they kind of are not.

Can invite and dino's but can't invent cell phones. Got it.

Yes, exactly. So Arnold back at the HQ, I guess, still cannot find Grant or the kids or the T-Rex on the monitors. So they can put a tracker on the Jeep. They can't like put a tracker on a dinosaur or maybe there's a different reason. There's probably a different reason. We'll get to it.

dinos need solar power on their backs to make sure the batteries are charged?

Right, right, right. Malcolm suggested the motion sensors probably do not cover the roads or the river because the dinosaur have escaped.

JONATHAN (30:51.598)
Another flaw in the system. Point to Malcolm. Point to Malcolm.

another point to Malcolm in the litany of points that he's already gotten received and The dinosaurs he says may be using these routes to avoid detection because they're learning or maybe just because they're on the road because they escaped the fence Arnold scoff said this Stating that the animals are not that smart. Okay, but

But you've studied them for four years and you don't know how smart they are?

Well, this is what I'm talking about. These people are ignorant. That's why I'm willing to give them a pass and a very loose pass saying they just didn't know. just literally didn't know the dinosaurs were getting diseases. They're like, I guess it's, know, you know what?

What would have made this... Sorry guys, I'm gonna ruin Jurassic Park again. You know what would have made this more believable? Have you read the city? No, not the city in the city. The Devil in the White City.

SLAVA (31:49.134)
Sitting in the city? Shut up, up.

SLAVA (31:53.934)
Excellent book. Right?

where I can't remember his name. What's the guy's name? What's the serial killer's name? Doesn't matter. Anyway, all right, look it up while I'm talking. He is building himself a building, right? And what he does is he hires crews, lets them work on like 18 % of it, fires them, hires a new crew, has them keep building based on his architectural design, fires them after 18 % or 20 % or whatever, so that every crew doesn't know what's going on.

It does.

JONATHAN (32:23.5)
And so he could have had a series of scientists roll through. Now the commenters will probably say, well, then you're going to let it out that people are going to know that dinosaurs are being made, dah, dah, dah. yeah, but what if he killed them every time he, did it or what if he, you know, and I'm, and I'm kind of changing the book up a little bit here, but if you're, if you're having them work on something, but not on the Island, right? Like, Hey, I want you to develop DNA stuff, blah, blah, blah. And you keep.

man, my gosh, it's like terror cells, right? Terror cells where one cell doesn't know what the other cell is doing, but there's someone at the top dictating these things, which is not exactly terror cells. But in this case, it would be the scientist whose name I can't remember at the moment, who he convinces like, Hey, just out of grad school, come and do something real with your life. You can own building this beautiful thing. But if he did this in silos, then they brought on some of these scientists who didn't know all the information.

where we have characters who are blatantly ignorant. think it would have been better. Holmes. Yes.

So, HH Holmes... HH...

HH Holmes, so what you are proposing that Crichton should have done is not make Hammond a lovable, goofy grandpa who happens to have a lot of hubris.

JONATHAN (33:44.014)
billion million dollars

all that and a lot of hubris that destroys people's lives because of the hubris you wanted him to be a calculating serial killer who also had who also had the wherewithal to build his system based on al-qaeda that's the Jurassic Park you want to read i mean i'm here for but that that's a different book entirely

telling me that you're telling me that people wouldn't read that book?

I would read that book.

Exactly. All right. Drop it in the comments. Would you read that book? Say it again. Salva one more time for us.

SLAVA (34:20.16)
a serial killer who has also served with Al-Qaeda and has used the lessons learned from terror cell organization to create the park.

Yes, that's the book that I want to read. Okay, let's keep going.

H.H. Hammond.

The devil not the devil in the white city devil is the devil in the green jungle

There you beat me to it. The Devil on the Island off of Costa Rica.

SLAVA (34:47.413)
And you know what his terror cell nickname was?

the hooting owls.

Anyway, back to chapter five, or part five, I don't, I don't know anymore.

Iteration five iteration five because the system like this episode is breaking down Jonathan ruins books and Slava tries to help us slog through them

Yeah. So Malcolm says, we don't know how stupid these animals are and animals are not that stupid. They adapt. So if you want to talk about intelligence, there's probably a scale for animal intelligence, but generally speaking, animals adapt. Correct. And dinosaurs, whether they're reincarnated or not, they're adapting to what's going on. So now that they can get on the road from behind the no longer electrified fence, they're going to go on the road.

SLAVA (35:39.96)
because they're exploring.

been getting off the island that we know of. So not to throw another stick in your your mental direction.

that too. Anyway.

SLAVA (35:50.222)
No, you're good. So they get to the, uh, to a building. think it's to the aviary. So the kids and Grant is who I'm talking about now and their quasi safe at this point. Moving on to chapter three of iteration five, uh, Gennaro and Muldoon get a message from Arnold regarding the T-Rex's location. They track it and find it.

message T-Rex isn't in its cage anymore it's missing keep an eye out let us know if you see it

SLAVA (36:28.322)
And here is the most, I keep saying the most insane thing. I think I've said it a couple times already, but it's not the most insane. It's just in a series of insane, stupid things that these people do. They find it and Arnold reminds them, hey, don't do anything to the T-Rex that could have heard it because it's a tourist attraction.

Don't... it's like, it's almost like the Joker, like, don't put him down because people come here to see him. To chat. Don't talk, don't kill him.

So both Muldoon and Gennaro laugh at this. like, what the hell is going on? Muldoon downs a bottle of whiskey because what else are going to do at this point? And drives as close to the dinosaur as possible and fires a rocket tranquilizer and misses. Satrum bone noises. Insert them here. Meanwhile, Grant and the kids are drifting down the river. They found a boat.

and they're drifting down the river where the current begins to speed up. They realize they're headed for a 50 foot waterfall. And here's where this book is kind of like a movie where, you know, what else can go wrong? And well, you're headed for a waterfall. The raft spins and they plummet down to the pool below. I wish this was in a movie. This wasn't in the movie, but this would have been great for the movie. And lo and behold, Jonathan, who do you think is waiting for them there?

Is it the hooting owls?

SLAVA (38:03.886)
Slava? It's the T-Rex. The owls are still munching away at Nedry.

of course, of course. How could I forget?

With the T-Rex distracted by Lex's life vest, they swim to safety and head for a path behind the waterfall. To their surprise, it leads to a series of rooms filled with machinery. And here's where he looks like a James Bond villain. If you ever seen a James Bond movie, the villains, at least the old ones, the villains usually have a lair somewhere on an island in a remote location and their lair is part of the natural scenery.

Anyway, that's how my brain works.

Hidden away, secretive, built into the jungle or the side of a mountain or under a volcano or something.

SLAVA (38:51.074)
Grant starts looking for a phone, he heads down a black hallway, the kids are too scared to follow him, and the door shuts behind him, with the kids on the other side, and the T-Rex is still nearby. Suddenly, its head charges through the waterfall, directly at them, and begins trying to bite them. My stupid brain laughed at this part, even though it's supposed to be a serious part. When the T-Rex realizes,

this is of no use. dinosaur sticks out its tongue and grabs Tim pulling him into his mouth. Lecht tries to pull him back, but she was no match, quote, page 333 for those who want to know, she was no match for the muscular power that held him. At the last possible second, the T-Rex falls backward, biting its own tongue in half. Okay. That's...

I'm shocked.

SLAVA (39:49.847)
Also should have been in a movie I think but what do I know I'm not Spielberg

Do you feel like that moment was a little Deus ex machina?

Yeah, maybe. Because I enjoyed this book as a kid though, I think the nostalgia-

Nothing ruins everything.

blinded me to when I was reading it for the podcast, but that's another good point and Yeah, Jonathan ruins everything

JONATHAN (40:15.512)
Ha

Jonathan ruins everything. Except for books that he likes. But maybe I should start doing that too. What do you guys think? Leave it in the comments.

Or do you want me to ruin books? That Jonathan loves. That Jonathan loves, Kaladin is dumb.

SLAVA (40:42.934)
Yeah, not even the series. The way of Kings will be like four chapters.

JONATHAN (40:51.502)
How do you like your authors now, Jonathan? Ruining books.

So, yeah, just to quickly tie this one up, it could be a Deus Ex Machina. The more I think about it, sure.

Like why does it fall? Like I, you, and maybe you can pull the book up right now. I don't remember why it fell. Like there wasn't a helicopter going by to scare it. There wasn't like another dino fighting to drag it, you know, like in movies sometimes where it's like, I want to get in there. No, I want to get in there. And it's a very shallow space.

Yeah, slippery rocks. It's next to a waterfall.

yes, slippery rocks. slippery rocks got me again! Foiled my plan!

SLAVA (41:35.97)
Have you ever been trying to kill a couple of kids while they're escaping through a makeshift waterfall tunnel and slipped in the rock and bit your own tongue in half?

doing that this morning before we got on the podcast.

Excellent, Well anyway, moving on. It's announced to everybody that the park is now completely back to normal.

back to normal in quotes.

with ironic confidence, this is said. And at the same minute, the computer system begins flashing red. The power is failing again. And so they switch the main power back on after the reset. Then they realize, the auxiliary is on, which means something they should have known just like the diseases that were ravaging the population. means the fences were off for five hours and they go, maybe the Raptors have escaped.

JONATHAN (42:28.918)
Maybe they have.

Tim and Lex are relieved to be safe and Tim hopes they're the same for the T-Rex. What a sweet kid. Despite just being in its mouth. He's like, I hope that guy's fine, you know? I hope the T-Rex wasn't too inconvenienced by... And we're moving into the sixth iteration, which if we're following the same pace, should give us more chaos and insanity. Malcolm's effect in real life.

He's misunderstood.

JONATHAN (42:59.576)
Chaos continues to win, survive and thrive and flourish. That's what I wanted to say. Chaos continues to flourish.

Right. Nature, chaos finds a way. Nature finds a way and so does, or no, life. Life finds a way. That's Malcolm's line. But chaos finds a way too. And it's kind of appropriate to mention that the novel structure follows this form as well. Each generation's pacing increases along with the level of danger and the fractal geometry that Malcolm mentions symbolizes just decline.

Malcolm disdains modern scientists for this reason, believing them to be the creators of much unnecessary chaos. think Hammond is the one pulling the strings here, no matter how stupid, according to Malcolm's view, the scientists are. And they are because they're taking Hammond's money and doing everything that he tells them to do. But here, instead of taking the time to perfect their craft and truly understand what they're doing,

with some humility and dare I say some concern for the consequences. The scientists are like Nedry, like Malcolm, selfish, full of hubris. They don't know what they're doing.

was roll. Roxy's in for it. Is that the? That's funny. That was good timing. That's

SLAVA (44:18.872)
That's an owl actually.

SLAVA (44:25.742)
That is the end.

SLAVA (44:36.994)
So back to the lodge, Muldoon, Malcolm, Sattler discuss how to get the power back on, while two raptors attempt to trough through the skylight ceiling above them. They decide they can create a distraction to allow Grant to get to the power box. Sattler offers to be bait, asking the others not to tell Grant. Wu radios Grant and instructs him to leave the kids in the cafeteria and slowly make his way to the power box. Grant does this. And of course, Lex begins demanding ice cream.

I think Michael Crichton might have been channeling some of his experiences as a father here because that's what kids do. I don't have any kids, but I grew, well, I grew up around kids, obviously. Wow.

You grew up around kids. Yeah, you were never a kid yourself, but you did grow up.

Like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, was created from ancient DNA. Good Lord. I have friends who have had kids and I watched those kids grow up and you know turn into teenagers and young adults and that sounds like something an 11 year old would do. In the middle of danger

Fair enough.

JONATHAN (45:45.24)
I have friends who grew up as children, but I myself never grew up as

Moving on. get to the power box. Tim frankly tries to get the power back on, pressing the button while Lex yells at him to go faster. Typical brother-sister stuff. We go back to the lodge. The group sits in the lodge waiting for a radio or the power to go on as they watch the raptors above them. Malcolm comments on how ugly they are and Hammond says, who could have imagined it would turn out this way?

What the hell? Dude, shut up.

who could have determined you know i'm reminded

Kind of a saying, an old Jewish adage, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Here we have Hammond. Both Sattler and Malcolm point out that Malcolm did in fact predict it. Then he goes off another rant about Hammond's mistakes telling him he can make a boat but not on the ocean. In other words,

SLAVA (46:54.636)
Hammond's hope to control nature would utterly fail. It's futile and foolish. Like it was destined to fail.

Yeah, what other times in history have we tried to control nature and it failed?

I don't know. You tell me. I can't think of any. When have we tried to control nature? In this manner.

we knew when you say in the span of the meet guys or or

no i mean to this extent where we are literally meddling with things that should be left alone not talking about scientific advancements or all no no no let me let me

JONATHAN (47:29.944)
Zoos have eaten bunches of people. you know, that Faris.

No, there's no retracting. You're on record, buddy.

Saudi Arabia a couple of years ago tried to do something with rain where they somehow tried to... some kind of weather machine right and it caused flooding so there you go that's recent history people didn't think through it but Hammond plays dumb again acting like he has no clue what Malcolm's talking about while this is going on Grant is trying to get into the visitor center to save the kids but the security system is now restored and the doors are locked

Weather machine, right?

SLAVA (48:11.424)
and Tim and Lex find themselves in the nursery and the door is not properly closed. Two clever raptors get in and Tim throws the baby velocilaptor at them to distract them.

Yes. Catch your baby!

The adults eat the baby and Lex and Tim are shocked but it gives them enough time to get out. They enter the DNA extraction lab where Grant finds them accompanied by Gennaro, the lawyer who at this point should probably be taking notes for his freaking report about how unsafe this park is.

Of course.

my gosh. So as we move on to the end of part six, the group reaches control and Tim is finally able to reset the power grid. Electricity is restored. The Raptors above the skylight are instantly electrocuted as Malcolm and Muldoon cheer. That's like clapping with a plane it lands, but sure.

JONATHAN (49:17.774)
You don't clap when planes land when you're flying?

I hoot like an owl.

Of course you do. And then you spit on the woman next to you.

Yes, in her face.

And then she starts withering away because of your venom.

SLAVA (49:33.676)
I want to be the first off the plane. So I spit in the person next to me, grab my bag and run towards the door. Usually getting tackled while it's still in the air.

He's landing.

it's not quite hit the ground yet

Right.

Leave it to Slava to ruin air flights as well, folks.

SLAVA (49:50.904)
Can guess how many days we have spent in Jurassic Park at this moment?

36 hours.

Two days spent in Jurassic Park.

pretty and it was and it was yeah

We've had many climaxes, many moments of tension. The group of survivors are not through it yet though.

JONATHAN (50:10.19)
Of course not.

The iteration, the sixth one, begins with Malcolm's warning. System recovery may prove impossible as the fractals become smaller and thus the shape more complex. Hammond's endless irony and stupidity are in full display here. Malcolm reminds him that he calculated disaster before the park was even built.

People love being told, I told you so in case, in case anyone was unaware, people love, especially when they're most down or like they're in the depths of it. You should always make sure that you tell them, I told you so in those darkest moments. That's what I do to slap all the time.

Yay. That his attempts to control nature are unrealistic and deluded and offers yet another philosophical analogy. You can make an airplane, but you can't make the air. So part six, everything is shit.

Yes. Everything is terrible. Life really sucks when you reincarnated dinos.

SLAVA (51:15.736)
So what we're left with as we leave part six and end the book, what I'll keep harping on is Hammond's continued delusion. Throughout this period of escalating danger, John Hammond remains fully in denial. He acts as if Malcolm's warnings or philosophy are too complex for him to understand. He scoffs at the idea that things went wrong.

and expresses more concern about his vision than the lives in danger, which we talked about just briefly a little bit ago. And despite Malcolm reminding him that he can make a boat but not the ocean, which emphasizes Hammond's futility, Hammond refuses to budge. And he doesn't until the very end of the book, and even then it's questionable of his authenticity. So the iteration ends. Grant believes the toughest part has just begun. Despite

the immediate crisis being averted, this is only the beginning. Because not only do they have to get off the island, they have to wreak the consequences of Hammond's stupidity here. And all the actions of all the people involved in this, there will be consequences. So they're alive. Yeah, despite the immediate crisis being averted, the aftermath is the bigger problem. Because they have to deal with all the deaths, they have to deal with the dinos off the island. So...

Yes.

SLAVA (52:43.32)
Good for them, I guess. Better them than me.

I can tell you how to dispose of the bodies quickly.

Okay, HH Holmes.

just leave them there and they'll get eaten. That's no, no, no. For anyone who's read Devil in the White City, Holmes ended up incinerating in his own mortuary. No, that's not right. His own furnace. He ended up using his own furnace, which is part of what he had built to incinerate bodies in secret parts of his building lair.

So this brings us to the final portion of the book, part 7 epilogue or the seventh iteration and chapter 1 of part 7 is called destroying the world Hammond, what do think he's doing? he is relieved to have averted the potential disaster of the dinosaurs getting loose and destroying the world. I think he did both. Well, maybe not destroying the world, but the dinosaurs are definitely loose.

SLAVA (53:45.696)
Malcolm is incredulous at this arrogance, calling him an egomaniacal idiot. That's a good way to describe Hammond. And telling him that it is impossible to destroy the planet. Thank you. Yes, it's just going to be a planet with dinosaurs on it now and less humans. Hammond mentions the fact that people seem to be concerned about the future of the earth due to human activity. And Malcolm laughs at this too, claiming that since the planet has survived the evolution of life,

mass destruction, shift in plates and volcanoes. It can survive humans and I'll add dinosaurs as well. With the danger finally, seemingly, subsiding on the island, calls have been made to Costa Rica for help and they plan to send a helicopter at some point soon. Eight people are dead, six are missing and only 10 survived. Grant makes a plan to bomb all the nest and prevent any more eggs from hatching.

and then burn the island to the ground. Tim finds an unmarked storage room indicated on the computer and the group goes there to find large store of grenades. This was kind of comical to me, but it is what it is. They have grenades on this island? Why would they need grenades on this island? Dynamite maybe, but they have grenades? Where the hell did Hammond get grenades? You can't go to Walmart and buy grenades.

Why was it coming?

JONATHAN (55:09.39)
Do you can't? Maybe not near you, but definitely near me.

Alright, so they take a little baby raptor, hoping that it will lead them to the nest. The plant works. The nest is a huge black hole in the ground. Gennaro starts whining, no way I'm going down there, blah blah blah. But Grant reminds him of his responsibility. Grant of course descends first, reaches the bottom and radios back a distinctly odd, almost off-struck, that's a quote from the Maxwell book, voice that he's fine.

Hammond of course is anxious. They're at the lodge now. Malcolm slips into a coma. He feels like Malcolm Dine would be the final rebuke and does not wish it to happen. And good for him, Malcolm wakes up completely delirious and begins mumbling about a paradigm shift saying everything looks different on the other side. I guess he saw God or something. Malcolm is happy because he feels that Dine and Co.

Dino Guy.

JONATHAN (56:06.53)
God of Dinos.

Which is the big owl apparently. That's never, I'm not gonna stop. I'm sorry.

You should have said, whoo.

Malcolm is happy because he feels that this disaster will cause a shift in the way humans view scientific inquiry. Hammond goes outside to get some fresh air reflecting on the park and its problems, Hammond decides that the reasons for its failure are in the hands of his employees.

Who did you think was

SLAVA (56:37.206)
Naturally Right as Hammond walks along the path to his bungalow. He hears the roar of the t-rex all around him He becomes frightened and starts to run Eventually leading to a steep hill and losing control. He tumbles down breaks his ankle Then he hears the children or the intercom and realizes it's just them fooling around with dinosaur noises He becomes infuriated

thinking of the children as unwanted and useless, and assures himself there is nothing wrong. He sits up, calling for help. My god, Hammond. Gennaro panics and Muldon threatens to use a shock stick on him if he does not go down the hole. Gennaro thinks his fate will be terrible either way, but plunges headfirst into the nest and falls, eventually landing on the concrete slab. Grant and Sattler are there.

along with more than 30 raptors, six adults, and many, many, many juveniles. Grant thinks they're not attacking because either they cannot see the humans in the darkness or because they are relaxed after the eggs have hatched. The three of them begin counting eggs and Sattler notices that the dinosaurs are moving in a sort of oriented pattern like bees. They begin theorizing about what it could mean and suddenly the dinosaurs turn and bolt.

into the darkness beyond.

So this is another one of those moments for me where I was like, yeah, science, the whole, the whole thing of science to speak as articulately as I, my, my brain allows on this morning is observation to discover patterns. Right. And then they go through the scientific method. You're telling me again, Jonathan ruins everything that there've been no patterns in five years. Everything's been like.

JONATHAN (58:32.854)
No patterns here, no patterns there. Again, I think to your point, the hubris is meant to be blinding to them, but no one, no one said, you know, I'm kind of seeing a pattern here, not just with the Raptors, but just in general. Patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns. Sorry, continue.

Right, no, they don't see them. They do not. But, back with Hammond, he's making his way up the hill, his ankle swollen purple, and he hears faint chirping. And moments later, a group of compies appear. At first, he thinks he's in no danger, because of course he does. But then he remembers, wait, they have a poisonous bite. They used to kill injured defenseless animals.

Well, and they know he's rich, so they aren't going to attack him.

Right, no, they're probably anarchists. They're gonna attack him because he's rich. But he realizes, wait, I am in the category of injured and defenseless animals and begins to panic.

sure, sure,

JONATHAN (59:32.142)
First moment of clarity for him in the entire book. Not full clarity, but like partial.

They surround him, he tries to defend himself by throwing rocks and sticks at them. Brilliant. They back away for a moment, and only for a moment, because the venom begins to work and makes him feel peaceful and dreamy. And then they begin to work on him and eat him alive. And he's dead. Hammond is dead.

yes

Grandpa went to the big owl in the sky.

Owl Sanctuary. Grandpa went to the big owl sanctuary in the sky.

JONATHAN (01:00:08.14)
Yes, very good, very good.

Yeah, so the book really ends with Grant and the others chasing the raptors out of the tunnel. They find themselves on the beach looking at the Pacific Ocean. The raptors line up in the apparently a pecking order. Sattler believes the dinosaurs want to escape the island. Grant remembers that dinosaurs are fundamentally birds. Replies that they probably want to migrate. The helicopters appear through the fog. Muldoon and the children are already on board.

Grant and the other survivors are taken to a hotel in San Jose and are forced to remain there indefinitely. One morning, an American man Grant has never met before approaches him, telling him about some mysterious animals who are eating crops and traveling in a seemingly migratory fashion across the country. He worries that they could be dinosaurs, and Grant asks why is he not allowed to go help?

The man offers no information on the matter, simply replying, None of us are going anywhere, Dr. Grant. And thus ends the novel.

living it up at the hotel jurassic park

SLAVA (01:01:18.754)
You can check out, you can never leave.

that's correct

That's correct. So all in all, I know what I said earlier, but I retract the statement. A very, a great thriller because when you're reading it, a lot of fun keeps you engaged, enjoyable, entertaining, tension, risk, know, costs, death, chaos as well. But who do you think is the most responsible for the failure of the park?

Hammond it's always goes to the leader if You have done nothing to prevent or plan for disaster. It is your fault There are plenty of leaders who because of mitigating circumstances Might have missed a Nedry or might have missed a crucial detail here or there that leads and Edel bleed to something this big and bad and terrible Okay, but at least he did everything he can

And in the midst of it, at least he's trying to save the people in his immediate, you know, circle. He managed it poorly. He ignored all the warning signs. He ignored people that are smarter than him. And in the face of undeniable evidence that things are going wrong, he's like, Nope, not at all. Everything's fine. He's like that little dog in the coffee shop. Everything's burning around him. This is fine. It's great. And he cares more about his name, his ego, his money.

JONATHAN (01:02:45.835)
This is fine.

SLAVA (01:02:51.276)
and even his grandchildren. in this particular case, is solely his responsibility. Now, doesn't take away from the responsibility of his sycophants and his followers and his employees who either were too cowardly or too selfish or insert the right word for the right person to say anything. People played along, the investors played along, but ultimately he started this thing. And I don't want to make the comparison to Hitler.

Hammond Hitler they both start with a

People use this analogy so flippantly, but when you think about World War Two and the Holocaust and everything, the responsibility solely lands on Hitler's shoulders. It doesn't take away any of the responsibility from his Nazi party and the soldiers and even the citizens of Dachau who knew what was going on in the camp just down the street. And they're like, no, no, they're just working. Everything's great. It's a re-education camp. So.

Everybody bears responsibility, but the guy who started the fricking thing, he bears most of it. The full brunt of it, I should say.

The interesting thing about responsibility is it's kind of a fractal. Are you familiar with fractals? Yes. Where the more that you zoom in and you're on a fractal, it's just a pattern repeating on itself and there's never an end.

SLAVA (01:04:14.626)
think it's mentioned in this book.

That sounds about right. But, responsibility, there's not like a hundred percent to divvy out amongst all the parties. It's just everyone is responsible for their participation, but the guy at the top is more responsible. It's this ethereal substance. So this is, you're a horror lover. Would you call this book a horror or a thriller and why?

I would call it a thriller because horror has more darker elements to it.

This is too fun loving and friendly, family friendly.

JONATHAN (01:04:52.898)
Ha ha ha ha!

SLAVA (01:04:57.134)
In my estimation, or in my view of things, there are three types of horror. There's the psychological horror, the monster horror, and the supernatural horror. And the sense of dread in all three of them, it's different, but there is an overwhelming sense of dread that the author, movie maker, wants to impose on the consumer. Here, it's a thriller because the sense of danger

Fast?

built differently. It's fast, it's moving, and dinosaurs aren't horror monsters in the same way that a werewolf is, or a vampire, or a demon. So if this was just a regular zoo, or if this was kids who escaped from a caravan and a safari, and they were trying to escape a lion that was chasing them, that wouldn't be horror, that would be a thriller. Or there's a movie...

I think it's called The Ghost in the Darkness. It's an actor who played in Wall Street, the original movie, Wall Street. And he's a hunter and he goes on a safari to hunt lions and then things go wrong and then the lions begin to hunt the caravan of hunters. Basically that's what happens. Michael Douglas and Val Kilmer, that's correct. So that's not a horror movie.

Val Kilmer or Michael Douglas?

SLAVA (01:06:27.726)
but there's a lot of tension and thrill, well I don't want to say thrills, maybe for the lions, but it's a thriller. Silence of the Lambs is a psychological horror.

So is it a psychological horror or is it a psychological thriller, Silence of the Lambs? Because I thought it was a psychological thriller, but let's pause that for a second. Let's continue on this conversation thread. Do you feel, to summarize what you've stated so far, horrors are slower burns in terms of the dread, thrillers are faster and action packed?

Yes, but there's more to it.

in your, in your experience, not objectively. Don't look it up.

No, I am going to look it up. Because I need to articulate this in a way that makes sense because I know, so are in the recesses of my brain, there is a distinction because I've thought about this long and hard before we even started this podcast and I need a way to articulate it.

JONATHAN (01:07:29.902)
I'm sure you have, because you're more well-read in both of these genres than I am, which is where the question comes up, right? It's like, what's the line between these two genres? Because I think to your point, there's psychological horror, monster horror, and what was the third horror you said? Psychological, monster.

supernatural or paranormal.

Natural, paranormal, yep. And then for thrillers, there's definitely psychological thrillers. I'd say that there's also supernatural thrillers. I don't know if there's any monster thrillers, unless maybe, maybe Jurassic Park is a monster thriller.

I think I can articulate what I wanted to say better. So the difference between horror and thriller will boil down to the emotional response they aim to provoke and the threat that they center around. Alright. So let's unpack that. the emotion. Horror is fear, dread, shock, disgust, something that scares you, disturbs you, haunts you. Thriller...

There's suspense, there's tension, there's anxiety. You're kept on edge. You keep guessing what comes next. The type of threat, so that's number two, horror often features supernatural or existential threats. So monsters, ghosts, demons, uncanny. Thriller, and this is where my articulation broke down just a few seconds ago. Thriller is real world dangers, to your point.

SLAVA (01:09:01.344)
serial killer, spies, political corruption, psychological mind games, all that kind of stuff. And then the third one, the third one would be tone and atmosphere. So horror is dark, like I mentioned, it's grotesque, it's surreal, it could be claustrophobic in some sense, like the world is coming in on you. While the thriller has high stakes, it's grounded in some sort of reality, and it's fast paced, and it builds tension.

So fear comes from the unknown with horror, tension comes from the risk and consequences of the grounded in thrillers. I knew there was a way to articulate it, my brain just froze for a second there.

Okay.

JONATHAN (01:09:43.822)
that checks out, I'm thinking through those definitions. Yeah. What do you guys think? Is that a, is that a fair definition for thriller or horror, or would you describe it differently? Or are you like me and you really haven't read much of either, barring the ones that we've read on the show here that Slava has recommended. Let us know in the comments.

Well, that's all folks.

Biddy biddy biddy biddy that's all folks

Thanks for joining us on this episode of SciQuest and tune in next week where we dive into the fascinating world of owl sanctuaries or winter steel, one of the two, who knows.

coin toss on which one we're gonna actually go through. Stay tuned for more from the SideQuest Book Club podcast. And if you have a book recommendation, be sure to let us know.

SLAVA (01:10:34.518)
in the comments.

I'd prefer that you mail Slava severed limbs of beloved pets that you've had.

with little pieces of paper tied to them recommending whatever books you use. Barbie Horse Adventure, the small like squirrel tail with the bloodstone taped on. All right, we're done.

JONATHAN (01:11:04.238)
I have a favor to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take side quests along the way.