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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
You're listening to The Grazing
Grass Podcast, episode 98.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: those cows
have four feet in their mouth and
they can harvest that themselves.
You don't need to make the hay.
Cal: You're listening to the Grazing
Grass Podcast, helping grass farmers learn
from grass farmers, where every episode
features a grass farmer, their operation,
and their regenerative practices.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
On today's episode we have Russ Wilson
of Wilson Land and Cattle Company.
Russ took time out of his busy speaking
engagements and farm activities to
hop on and share about his journey
and what he's doing on his farm.
I think you'll really enjoy as we
talk about the transition from doing
conventionally with cattle to where
he is now, including multi species.
Before we talk to Russ, 10 minutes or
10 seconds about my farm, and we're not
going to talk about my farm this week.
The wildfires in Texas, I have not
seen a report today, but hopefully
with the weather change, there's,
they're gaining containment.
I know there's lots of people out
there needing lots of help, the
West Texas area that over a million
acres have been burnt is where my
grandparents moved from to Oklahoma.
So my dad still has cousins
that live out there and ranch.
And none of them are, none
of them had a total loss, but
they did incur some losses.
If you feel led to help out
some way, get online, look, find
somewhere where you can help.
Let's talk to Russ.
Track 1: Russ We want to welcome
you to the grazing grass podcast.
We're excited.
You're here today.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Thanks for having me, Cal.
It's an honor.
Track 1: Thank you Russ to get
started Can you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your operation?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah I've
been involved in agriculture pretty
much my whole life, but I grew up in
conventional agriculture and small
dairy, and we We sold those cows
in 18, er, yeah, in 1989, 1989 just
because it just wasn't profitable.
And then I punched time clock for a while
and then I started my own businesses.
I've had several businesses along the way.
And and then in 2008, my wife and
I, we decided to get a few cows just
to raise some meat for ourselves
and it just spiraled from there,
I started as conventional and
that wasn't working for us at all.
Track 1: What caused you to change?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Bottom
line, I wasn't making any money.
Having businesses in the past
business needs to make money, as
far as I'm concerned, and at the
end of the year, I was writing big
checks, not making any money that
was my main reason for changing.
Track 1: During that time, were
you looking at more regenerative
practices or rotational grazing?
How did you get on that subject
to, to think, hey, this is going
to help me be more profitable?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Cal back
whenever I was transitioning, I didn't
know what regenerative agriculture was.
To me it was more about taking the
inputs out of the farm so I could
actually try and make a profit.
So that's what pushed me along is to try
and get all those inputs out because we
were making a lot of hay and planting
corn and grinding it and you know all The
steps it takes and we got rid of all that.
Track 1: So you mentioned you were
farming ground at the time as well?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah.
Yeah, my farm It's just
about all tillable.
There's very little of it.
It's not tillable And we had I don't
know I'd say around seven acres of
pasture field and we farmed the rest
of it we'd make as much hay as we
could and we'd make grain and or grow
corn and oats and feed that back to
the cows and It just wasn't working.
Track 1: I agree.
The regenerative term is newer,
but we came to it under the same deal.
We gotta make more money, and what's one
way to keep more money in your pocket?
That's reduce those inputs.
And, that's a pathway
for many people, I think.
And then it just gets, you start finding
out information, you just go deeper.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Regenerative
and lowering inputs just go hand in
hand once you sit down and look at it.
At least for us it does.
Our our cattle are still, or our
mama cows are still out grazing.
We haven't fed any hay at all
to those girls yet this year.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
And were you able to, just on that
topic of winter grazing, were you
able to do that by stockpiling
or did you plant some cover crops
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: We're getting
away from planting the cover crops and the
annuals and stuff as the farm gets better.
We just basically working off
stockpiled cool season grasses,
or cool season pastures.
We're not I try to have as much
diversity as we possibly can.
Track 1: And when you think about
your pastures, just before we
talk about your pastures a little
bit more, where are you located?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I'm
in northwestern Pennsylvania
just south of the Lake Erie.
Normally get about 40 inches
of rain and then about 100, 100
to 120 inches of snow a year.
And this year,
I don't think we've had 18
inches of snow this year.
It's been a dry winter.
We've had a lot of rain,
I guess you could say.
Track 1: Just not in snow form.
So when I'm watching the weather forecast
and they're saying lake affects snow.
That's going, that's mainly north of you.
You're just barely, but to the south of
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah
I'm about maybe 10, 15 miles south
of that, so we do get lake effects
every once in a great while.
Track 1: So when you're mainly using your
pasture there and when you started this
in 2008, what did your pastures look like?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Basically bare ground.
They're basically sacrifice paddocks.
We were only grazing maybe
a hundred days a year.
And the rest of it we were
feeding, for the rest of the year.
And it just, you drive across the
country, you see these pastures that
are basically big sacrifice lots.
Track 1: So what was your first
step to get away from that?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I had a lot
of turning points, or people that kind
of planted the seeds and one was a
veterinarian I had that we were on a first
name basis with our vet there for a while
and we were doing things conventional
because we were calving in February,
March And we had a lot of sickness,
hoof rot, you name it, we had it.
He drove into the farm there one
spring day, it was in April, and
he looked at me and he says, why
aren't your cows out there grazing?
And I said no, I need
to make the hay on it.
He says, no, those cows have
four feet in their mouth and
they can harvest that themselves.
You don't need to make the hay.
That was one of the.
The people that kind of planted the seed
to make me start thinking a little bit.
Track 1: Did that piece of advice spur
you into motion right then to change
or did you have to hear it a few more
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I had
another gentleman come in and when he
first came in, I thought he was crazy.
He was a USDA NRCS grazing specialist.
He come in, I was trying to get rid
of, I didn't like to see those bare
pastures or those muddy pastures.
And I didn't know what to do.
So I had him come in and he
walked the farm and I told
him what I was going to do.
And he suggested that I start
rotating my cows once a day.
And, when he said that,
I thought he was crazy.
I didn't tell him that, but I
went up to my wife after he left,
and I'm like, This guy's nuts.
Why would we want to move
those cows once a day?
And him and I, we've
Become really good friends.
Any questions or anything I had,
I, we bounced things off each other
and we have, we had, and ended up
having a good working relationship.
Track 1: And I assume when you look at
those early pastures or when you think
about those early pastures set stock, you
weren't dealing with much infrastructure
outside of a perimeter fence.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: No
actually I had three fences.
I had two broken down barbed
wire fences and then I had a
rebar with screw on insulators.
is my main, a single wire
of, is my main fence.
Yeah.
I did my fencing was horrible.
Track 1: So what did you do once
you started getting this feedback?
Where did you go for
more knowledge or did you
get a couple people telling
you and you jumped in?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I get up
early in the mornings, and I don't like
to work out in the dark, and I have,
I've used headlights and different
things like that, but getting up at 2.
30, 3 o'clock in the morning, that
gives me the opportunity to do research.
Every day, three, four hours a day, just
trying to get this figured out and, which
way to go and how can we lower the inputs
and, it's a lot of fun, I really enjoy it,
Track 1: I love easing into my day.
I like to get up early, not as early as
you're talking about, but I like to get
up, have my coffee, check out YouTube for
the channels I follow, and and I browse
the web, try and find some information.
And that's my morning routine as
much as I can keep it a routine.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Oh yeah.
And I also read a lot, so I have a
lot of textbooks and stuff that or
a lot of reading material that I've
been, and there's some really good
grazing magazines out there as well.
Track 1: Oh, yeah, that was
08, you got the, a few cows.
When did you really make a switch?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: We started
rotating once a day in the fall of 2011.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
And did you jump immediately to
once a day rotations, or did you do
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah.
Yeah.
I,
Track 1: in between
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
no, I was going, I was on
a seven to 14 day rotation.
I thought that was rotational grazing.
And and actually I can show you
the cow trails that are still left
in those fields from 2011 today.
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah.
Those cow trails just never go away.
But in 2000, the fall of 2011, my wife
and I started moving to cows once a day.
And, it was overwhelming to
be quite honest with you.
It took her and I an hour and
a half a day to move those cows
once a day when we first started.
Yeah, it was a
lot of work.
Track 1: yes.
Were you putting up poly
braid and moving them?
How were you, how were, how was, how were?
I don't even know if
it's a was or a were now.
Now my middle school
English teacher is right.
I don't know was and were.
How did that go for you at the beginning?
How or what materials were you using?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I went
and I, I bought some mini reels
and I went and I got the cheapest
poly twine that I could find.
And I started out with rebar
posts with screw on insulators.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: It's
because I already had those
and we just started from there.
And I was still I'd rotate the
cows, but I'd also leave alleyways
so they could get back to water.
And all that has changed now, but
that's how we first started out.
Track 1: Yeah, that water is always
a tough call in the beginning.
You've got to leave them some
way to get back to water.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, water's
the biggest problem on all farms.
When I go out and visit other farms
it's, not the fencing, it's the water.
Water's the biggest issue.
Track 1: The cows you had in 08,
have you just continued with the
same cows, same breeding, or did
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
No, we changed our breed.
We in 08 we had cows that
was pushing 1, 900 pounds.
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: They were big.
They were big hippos.
Whenever I bought the cattle, I tried
to buy The highest EPD cattle that
I could find, not realizing that
the, usually the higher EPD cattle
don't necessarily do well on grass.
So, I went and I found a very small frame.
We're working with registered Angus.
And I
went and I found an old line.
of Angus with a small frame bull.
I think he was like a two and a
half, maybe a three frame score.
And I put him on the cows and
that's how we brought our herds,
our frames down on the cows.
We didn't wear cows yet this year,
but last year the average weight
was a thousand seven pounds.
So
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: there,
there are a lot, we have a whole
different herd than what we used to.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
And when you, in 2011, how far
were you on that journey then?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
We were just getting started.
On the cattle side, We were
still back at the beginning.
Track 1: Oh you were
still grazing those larger
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, we're
still grazing those larger animals, and
then I would say in 2012 2013, I realized
that we needed to do something different.
And I needed to get an old school
genetics before they were upsized
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: For show,
show stock a lot of those larger framed
animals are for feedlot situation.
They don't do as well on grass.
Track 1: I have a Angus
breeder not too far from me.
In fact, for a number of years,
they had cattle that bordered us.
And, oh, their bulls are huge.
We didn't have necessarily
small cows a few years ago.
We had smaller cows because we were on,
we're on that journey downsizing our
cows as well to a more moderate size.
But we weren't near as, as
big as those Angus were.
And we had limousine, which,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Those are,
Track 1: sized limousine
but we'd been really.
careful and trying to get
a moderate sized docile
limousine for years at that
point but those angus bulls
across the fence were huge
They weren't always across the fence
you talked about that initial
getting started with that once
a day moving of your cattle.
You still had bigger cattle.
It was a lot of work to get started.
Did you immediately see some benefit from
it or were you just having to go by faith?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: No, absolutely.
I seen results almost immediately.
We're moving once a day.
We're putting a back fence on
them, so they weren't going
back and nipping the tips off.
And the regrowth was just tremendous
by moving them once a day.
Track 1: Oh yeah,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: And yeah
it, the results are almost immediate.
There was no question that we
were doing something, but we
didn't know quite what yet.
Track 1: right, yeah.
And you mentioned there before
you did that once a day, you
were on a weekly or two weekly.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah.
Track 1: What would you say to someone
who's doing that kind of weekly
rotation to encourage them to go
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I
wouldn't recommend anybody to
go straight to a daily rotation.
Take smaller steps.
If you're doing a weekly rotation,
maybe go every three to four days and
move, and just slowly work your way up.
Because, at least for
me, it got overwhelming.
And a lot of times, if stuff
overwhelms you, you're gonna just quit.
And you don't want to quit.
Just keep at it.
Track 1: And I think
that's a valid point there.
And as we talked about before
the podcast, take that next step,
wherever that may be.
So if you're on weekly
rotation, if you can go three
or four days, just step it up.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah,
Track 1: Because you, currently,
you're not doing once a day rotations.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: no, currently,
for the most part, we're moving twice a
day, the soils dictate what the rotation
is going to be for those livestock,
because we don't only have cows, we
have sheep, and donkeys, and hogs, and
chickens, and stuff, we have all classes
of livestock, and whatever I feel the
soil needs is dependent on how many times
we move and if it's really wet out, we
may move the cows 10 times in a day,
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: And we haven't
done that because of the soils have built
themselves up to where, and I've learned
a lot in grazing in wet weather and
the soils have built themselves to the
point where You know, maybe four or five
times a day is usually max for us now.
And like I say, the field is going
to dictate how many times we move.
Most generally, it's at least twice a day.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
And are you dealing with same type
of soil throughout your farm or
you have a few different types?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: That's a great
one, Cal, because when we first started
on our farm we were working off the Web
Soil Survey and I got to working with
the NRCS pretty close and they sent a
soil scientist in to just look at the
soils and how we've improved them and
stuff and he's The soils that you're
saying here, that isn't what they are.
He actually remapped my farm and
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: he,
he was qualified to do that.
So he remapped my farm and uh, I'm working
with seven different soils on 135 acres.
And about 40 percent of
my farm is wetland soil.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: if you
look at the Web Soil Survey, it's
not recommended for agricultural
use, and that's what it was.
It was, I got a lot of swampy areas,
and I have some fields that, almost
every field I have has a wet spot in it.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah,
Track 1: just talking about that soil
type and going on with those wet areas.
How do you manage those differently?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: When I go
out and talk to folks, I tell them,
graze your wet soils when it's dry,
and graze your dry soils when it's wet.
May move cows from one side of the
farm to the other just because of that.
We don't have a set
rotation for those animals.
They're, they go where they're needed,
and I have fields that I'll graze half of
them off, and then I'll come back after
it dries, and then we'll graze them then.
So yeah that's the best advice
that I can give, and we can talk
about paddock size and stuff too.
Your paddock shape makes a huge difference
when you're grazing in the wet weather.
The squarer you can make those
paddocks the better or less
compaction that you're going to have.
And, if you want to do a little
more trample and make those
paddocks long and narrow.
Track 1: That, that's an area that I
really hadn't thought about till last fall
when I went to Noble Research Institute
Essentials of Regenerative Grazing.
And they were talking about paddock
size and amount of trampling
and changing that whether it's a 1 to
1 or 3 to 1, 4 to 1 or even a 10 to 1.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Right.
Track 1: So that, that's really
interesting and great to point out
that you can control how much walking
and trampolines going to take place
in that paddock by paddock shape.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
and it makes a big difference.
It really does.
Track 1: You mentioned that you may
move your cattle across the farm, so
do you have any interior fences that
cause you any problems on pathways, or
are you doing this all with polybrain?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: we're
doing it all with PolyBrade.
I do have a little bit of
animal trails and walkways.
I didn't want a whole lot of stabilized
areas because that's just areas
that the grass isn't going to grow.
Track 1: Oh yeah
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I've
went with I just set alleyways.
We've mastered setting fence.
We can set a whole lot of fence
in a little bit of no time.
And here's an example.
We have a lease property up the road.
It's a mile and a half
up the road from us.
And We can set the fence,
move the cows, and pull the
fence in two hours, two of us,
Track 1: oh yes
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: and
that's quite a bit of fence,
Track 1: oh yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, we, if
you stick with it and try to improve, you
can really learn how to set fence and,
Track 1: before we, we talked a little
bit more about other species and
stuff, watering systems, earlier on
you were watering out of your ponds
or streams, but you've upgraded.
What was the process to upgrade
it and what do you have in
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: What I did is
I have an EQIP contract and they helped
with a little bit of my watering system.
I would say maybe a quarter of our
watering system they helped put
underground lines in and then they
wanted me to put cement troughs
in, or rubber tire troughs, and
I told them no, we can't do that.
So we put in all frost free hydrants.
And it ended up, I have about 12,
000 feet of water line buried.
With 40 plus hydrants and I put
that all in on my own and I have
hydrants about every 200 feet.
Because I've seen the benefit of
moving the water tank and keeping a
hose on them and, just keeping those
nutrients out where they need to be.
I could see when we used to water
out of an old cast iron bathtub,
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
That's what we watered out of.
And I think ever since I was just
a little guy, we always watered out
of a cloth foot cast iron bathtub.
But what I seen was when we were coming
back to water at that point, we were
moving a lot of manure and a lot of urine.
in towards that tank.
And, in reality, we needed
to have those nutrients out.
Where the grass can grow.
Put all the hydrants in.
I have I have two that I think I
have stabilized around the hydrant.
The rest of 'em are just hydrants
in the ground with an upright post
that they're screwed two to make
sure that cows don't knock 'em over.
But we've since I'll just, uh, three step
in posts around it, put a hot wire on
them, and I fence them all out as we go.
And over the years I've developed a a
valve for a tank that I call a wee valve.
What it does is you turn a little needle
valve on and it leaves the water run,
which brings that geothermal heat up
into the tank and keeps it from freezing.
And there's folks clear up
in Saskatchewan, Canada.
that are actually using this and it's
tested that valve down to negative 35,
Track 1: Oh, and it worked well at that.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: it worked well
at negative 35 and that was a big game
changer, being able to keep the cows out.
We used to run them out for a half a
day and bring them back in for a half
a day so they could get watered and
now they just, they stay out there.
Track 1: a tank are you using
for watering your animals?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
That's a great question, Cal.
Our watering tank is a 55
gallon drum cut in half, okay?
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: It's cut in
half on the round ways, and we only put
about maybe 10 to 15 gallons in that tank.
And it has a high, the
valve is a high flow valve.
And we keep that tank within 200 feet of
the livestock, and in doing that, only one
or two animals come at a time to drink,
and We've actually watered 120 animal
units out of that tank without any issues
whatsoever.
And, in doing that, what the great
thing is with that small amount of
water, especially in the summertime
whenever it's 100 degrees out, That
water cycles through that tank and that
water coming out of the ground is 55
degrees and you know I believe that
helps keep their body temperature down
and keeps them out of grazing longer.
Track 1: I think you're right with
that, or I think it potentially could
be correct because I'm not using
that small of a watering trough.
I would love to, but I don't have
a good enough watering system
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah.
Track 1: But that water gets
hot when it's sitting out there.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, it
does I've seen that I started with
55 gallon tanks and even with the 55
gallon tank in the 100 degree days.
You're looking at the water getting
up to 110 120 degrees it gets hot
and I wouldn't want to drink it.
Let alone let the cows do it You
know, as I tell my kids, if you're
not willing to drink it, then you
shouldn't be giving it to the livestock.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
When you, you put in your lines,
are they two inch lines all
pressurized, or did you go that big?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: no,
I didn't have to go that big.
I I have two springs, and I have
a well, and they're pressurized.
They're 20 40, I believe is the pressure
on them, 20 40, and we're running
inch and a quarter and one inch lines.
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah it,
at the end of the longest run we have,
we're getting about 4 gallons per minute.
Track 1: Oh, yeah,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah
Track 1: and that's in four gallons a
minute's enough to stay ahead of them
when they're out in the paddock drinking
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah easily.
Now, if you forget to turn a tank
on or something like that, whenever
you move them, which happens once or
twice a year for me and they flock
the tank, then it doesn't keep up.
Track 1: Yeah, they can't keep
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, but, if
you can keep it in with them, you're fine.
Track 1: now with your cattle you
also have Sheep and other animals.
Are you running those with
your cattle or you run them
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: No, we run a
pretty high stock density with our cows.
I like to run 100, 000 animal
units to the acre or more.
I like, especially if we've got tall
grass, I'll run those animals at two to
three hundred thousand pounds to the acre.
And, they're packed in there pretty tight.
I try to put the sheep in there and
they use the sheep for footballs.
They just, they just push them out.
What we've done is, we'll take
the sheep wherever they're needed.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: The sheep
will go wherever they're needed.
And then we're running some
mules and donkeys as well.
And, now they're set on past,
specific pastures because we
bring them in during the daytime.
And but they're still
rotationally grazed as well.
Track 1: So those are
not guardian animals.
Those are separate animals.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: We
do run donkeys with our sheep.
They're used as guardian animals.
We had some issues with
guard dogs in the past.
We've switched over to sheep.
Er, no, yeah, we've switched
over to the donkeys.
And we really like the donkeys.
They eat the same thing as the sheep.
They move with the sheep.
Normally they're the lead sheep.
Once the sheep get used to them wherever
the donkey goes, the sheep goes.
And we're running the big donkeys.
We're running donkeys close to 15 hands.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
and we ride them as well.
We ride them.
Track 1: Oh, okay.
With the donkeys, have you gone
100 percent from, to the, to
donkeys from dogs, or do you
still have any dogs out there?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: We
don't have any dogs anymore.
We've actually been through
four flocks of sheep and the
first three flocks we had dogs.
And then there was a spell there
for about a year and a half where we
didn't have any sheep that I had border
collies, and I love my border collies.
So I called a friend up and said, hey,
you got three sheep that I can train with.
He says, okay.
Tell you what, I'll do one better.
I'll sell you the whole flock.
I, bought the whole flock and we've
stuck with these sheep and man, I'll
tell you what, you don't get much
better sheep than what we have now.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: There's
we've never wormed them, we've never
trimmed a hoof, we've never had hoof rot.
They're just a carefree sheep and before
they were always full of parasites
and you're treating for bottle jaw
and trimming feet and all that.
We don't do none of that anymore.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
Is it a particular breed, or did it
come from a certain management that
had valued those traits and bred for
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
I'll tell you what it was, Cal.
My buddy, he didn't like sheep.
They just ran, and it
wasn't a very big flock.
We're only talking ten animals.
But,
he just left them run on his farm.
And the ones that survived,
and the ones that didn't.
And what made these sheep tough.
At least, I believe that's
what made them tough.
They weeded
themselves out.
The only time he worked them sheep is
whenever he's pulling lambs off to sell.
That's the only time that those
sheep got any attention at all.
So, they weeded themselves out and
we've had them, I think now, this flock,
probably, oh, four years, probably,
somewhere in that neighborhood,
and We've never lost an animal,
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: and before
we'd lose two, three, four sheep a year,
just to, just different causes, and these
guys here are tough, and as far as breed
goes, the base breed is Katahdin, with
a little bit of Dorper in them, I think.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: And that's
what I pretty much know about our sheep.
So they're not necessarily I tell
people they're sheep that live.
Track 1: That's the most profitable kind.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Yeah, you got that right.
Track 1: With your sheep, are
you running them behind poly
braid or using netting for
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Oh no, we're not, if I had
to run netting on a sheep, I.
don't think that we'd have sheep.
It's, the nettings, I know, I
have friends that use it, and they
swear by it, and they love it.
And, for me, it's just a lot of work.
Track 1: I use a little bit of netting
with goats and it's way too much work.
I don't like
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah
I don't care for it either.
We use it to break animals to fence,
but other than that, we don't use it.
What we'll do is, our sheep, we'll run
them in one wire if the fencer's really
running hot, and if it's drawed down to
7, 000 volts, we'll we'll run two wires
To keep, the sheep in.
And we're using the nine strand poly braid
with 310 copper wire, so they get a good
snap.
Yeah, so if they get a good
snap, if they get up against
it, and it works pretty good.
We have lambs.
You have sheep.
You know how lambs like to get out.
They're always out.
You just got to
You just got to turn your head and just
let them go do their thing, you know?
Track 1: They'll eventually
get big enough to get
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yep.
Yep.
Track 1: They'll change
their mind at that point.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah.
Track 1: One thing you mentioned
there, about going to donkeys versus
dogs, the dog food is one of my
biggest expenses, and it's I can't
buy enough dog food for those dogs,
and just, that's just some,
a hassle to deal with.
We have a donkey with our sheep.
Now we ran into a problem with
our donkey, because I introduced
a couple other donkeys.
On a property that's adjacent
to my dad's property,
we run the hair sheep
on my dad's property.
So the property adjacent to
it, I run cattle on, and I got
a couple donkeys over there.
That re that messed up our donkey
in that he just wants to hang out on
the fence with those other donkeys.
How do you manage that
with multiple animals?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: It takes a
pretty good donkey to be a guard animal.
Not every donkey is going
to make a guard animal.
We find that jennies usually work best.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
are like the worst.
They should never be
used as guard animals.
They have that male tendency and I
think a jack donkey is probably the
worst animal there is on a farm.
Because they can just turn on
a dime and, be nasty to you.
Try to use Jennies, and jennies that are
usually in foal are going to have babies.
They have that more of a mothering
instinct, which seems to help.
But you're right certain donkeys, they
will, if there's donkeys adjacent to
them, they'll want to hang out with the
donkeys versus hanging out with the sheep.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
And we our first donkey we have, it's
a John, and we got him through the BLM
program, which We were like, we weren't
sure we thought we had this opportunity
not too far from us We're gonna try it and
actually we've been really impressed with
him outside of he wants to hang out with
the other donkeys So I have to make sure
when I have them along that fence They're
not both sides aren't along that fence.
And then the second thing is
he's too rough with baby lambs
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, I've seen
that,
Track 1: yeah,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah,
I've seen that in the past, the
john donkeys, they're fairly decent
for the most part uh, I do believe
the jennys are a little better,
Track 1: is there anything
grazing your donkeys and mules?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: The ones that
we keep separate, we try to keep them in
forage, it's a little bit too far gone,
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Cause
donkeys have the tendency to get fat,
Track 1: Yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: They can
get fat on you, they can founder on
you, their feet grow funny I prefer
to try and keep them in forage
that's a little bit too far gone.
Track 1: Oh
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: pat, way past
the boot stage, maybe even turn them brown
with seed heads on it is ideal, actually.
Track 1: Actually, that
brings up a good question.
Jumping back to cattle and sheep.
When you look at your flock or your
herd, and you're getting ready to
move them, and you've got different
pastures, how do you decide where
you're taking one versus the other?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Um,
the sheep graze different from
cows, you know that and the cows
graze different from the sheep.
There's certain criteria
that I look for the sheep.
If there's like woody species starting
to grow a lot of forbs in there.
If it's soils wet, sheep
work really well on wet soil
Because they're so light.
So that's where the sheep are at,
or they're in smaller areas where
I really don't like repairing
areas or areas, to that nature.
And then the cows they're usually in
grasses, after the grasses start growing,
they're usually in three, four, three,
four foot tall grass all summer long.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
Very good.
Now, in addition to donkeys, sheep,
cattle, you also have some pigs?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah,
we farrowed hogs here when we
first started our rotational
grazing and we got away from it.
We had the wrong breeds.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: They're
heritage lard type hogs and the meat
was quality, but the hams were small
and the pork chops were small and
we had a hard time selling them.
So we just got out of the
hogs and we raised feeders.
We've been raising feeder hogs
for a number of years now and just
this past fall we've got We're
going to start farrowing again.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
And what breeds are you going with now?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: What we're
using are red wattle hogs and Michon hogs.
And then we're going to put a Berkshire
on top of those to try and get
The bigger hams and the bigger pork chops.
Like the Michon hogs, they're just a
medium sized hog and, I'd rather feed
a medium sized sow that has, they're
known to have 10 12 babies at a time.
So they're gonna eat less, but
they're gonna have lots of babies
and not put a Berkshire on 'em.
We should have good quality meat.
And, the hon are known for their quality
meat, they're a lar large type hog, which
makes the pork chops and the hams small.
Track 1: I'm familiar with Red
Wattle and with Berks, but Michon or
Michon, I'm not sure what those are.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
They're a black hog.
I think they come in from China, actually.
They're a medium sized tog.
They're, they got real big floppy ears.
They can't hardly see.
And they're.
too lazy to root for the most part.
Track 1: Oh, yes.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: They
just, they're not a very active hog.
They're very similar.
We used to raise mule
foot hogs and they're
Very similar to the mule foot,
but they're a little bit, I'd say
they're, if you took a pot belly
pig and a mule foot and crossed it,
That's what the Michon looks like.
Track 1: Oh, okay.
Where are you utilizing pigs on your farm?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: We put
them in places that are poor, because
they do have, especially the red
wattles, they have the tendency
to want to root a little bit.
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: So
we do keep them out of pasture.
We move them, we don't
move them every day.
They get moved about
every third day or so.
And I have a wagon that I built.
It's a wagon with a hog
pen on top of it, okay?
So we can
actually, we can run those
hogs in and capture them.
Every night if we want to because
hogs whenever it rains it brings those
earthworms up and they know there's
earthworms they'll just roll that sod
up Crazy, and it doesn't take them long
and that's one thing that drives me
crazy is bare soil So we'll lock them
in whenever stuff like that happens
Track 1: Oh, yes.
And if you do get bare soil, what
are you doing to the soil, then?
Are you planting anything?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: We'll throw
some oats on there maybe some turnips we
used to do all, a huge mix, 10, 12, 15
different species and put it on there but
I found that The seed in our soil seed
bank is, there's a lot of seeds there,
and if you give it time and a little
bit of rest, they'll express themselves.
Track 1: Take care of itself, yeah.
Russ, it's time for us to transition
to our overgrazing section.
And we're just going to continue
talking about pasture a little bit more.
Today, on the overgrazing section,
we're going to talk a little bit
about dealing with weeds and pasture.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Oh
Track 1: tell us more about that?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah, that's
something that we've really worked hard
on, and we actually don't We don't deal
too much with the weeds anymore, Cal.
Our big thing was to just
teach the animals to eat them.
And we did a catalog of the
species on our farm, and I have 178
species of plants on our farm that
I've cataloged.
The species is broad.
And I've done a lot of forage testing
because I had to prove stuff to myself
in order to make things logical.
And take for instance, New
England aster, it's high in zinc.
Cut plants, high in calcium.
Each one of these plants
have micronutrients that are
beneficial to those animals.
So if we can get them to eat
them, It balances their ration out
more, and I've found that we're
not using many minerals anymore.
The mineral, our mineral
consumption has went down.
But prior to teaching the animals,
we have to deal with these weeds.
One way or another, because a lot of
these weeds will reduce your production.
And, it's okay to have horse nettle
here and milkweed here, but, if
you have a whole pasture full of
it, your production's, terrible.
And we talked briefly about
paddock shape earlier.
We're not clipping anything on the farm.
I haven't clipped a pasture since 2012.
And that's one of the things
with the NRCS grazing specialist.
Him and I used to go back
and forth all the time.
I went to him, I'm like, I
think I can manage these without
having to clip my pastures.
And he's Oh, I think you're going
to have to clip those pastures and
him and I went back and forth and
I proved it to him and he doesn't
clip his pastures anymore either,
Track 1: oh, yes,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: but,
um, to make it easy, what I'll do,
we're efficient at setting fence
now, so we'll just split those pad,
paddocks or we'll make our paddocks
long ways in the pasture fields.
So they're long and narrow.
They may only be 10, 10 feet wide,
but they may be 300 feet long.
Okay.
And from the livestock moving back
and forth, they're, what they don't
eat, they tramp into the ground,
and it's cycled back quicker.
And like Canadian thistles, our
cows have come to, they absolutely
love Canadian thistle now.
And, in teaching these animals,
I didn't do anything special.
The only thing that I did is, we put
them in a high stock density situation.
And, whenever you put those animals
in a high stock density situation,
they become competitive eaters.
They're going to eat that plant because
they're afraid their buddy next to
them is going to eat that plant.
And after they eat those plants
for a while, they, I have cows that
actually eat bull thistles now.
Take for instance Canadian thistle.
What I would do is I would put a
pad, or a fence around, Canadian
thistle patch is usually round.
That's how it usually grows.
And I would just take a fence and put
around that patch of Canadian thistle.
I'd run the whole herd in there.
They would be in there like sardines.
They'd be packed tight, and I'd
leave them there for 30 minutes.
And they would eat the Canadian thistle
down, but what they did was they put
compaction on the roots of those Canadian
thistles, so they set those plants
back enough that the grasses and the
other plants could compete with them.
Track 1: oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: And, in the
next graze, you'd come around, there'd
be grasses in there, and you're not going
to get rid of all the Canadian thistles.
It's just not happening.
Even if you're spraying them, you're
not going to get rid of them all.
But we
set them back enough, we set them
back enough that the livestock can,
We set them back enough to where the
other species in the, the desirable
species in the pasture field.
Was able to start growing.
Track 1: On Canadian thistles, last
year, on this lease property, there's
an area that's got tons of them.
And I had read an article on pasture.
com about training your cows to eat them.
I thought, I'm going to go And do that
so so I've read the article or actually
I think she's got an e book there read
the e book I'm thinking I'm gonna go
through the process And you get a few
things that they're not familiar with
and then you cut them and you're trained
them to eat those I'm gathering the
knowledge and I'm talking to my wife
I need to get some of this and I go
up there and I put them in that area
and they had And I go up there later,
they ate all those Canadian thistles.
They didn't eat them to the ground,
but they chopped off all those seed
heads and just went through them.
I'm like, here I am, trying to
figure out how I'm going to get
them to eat it, and all I had to do
was put
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: them in there.
Yep.
You
Track 1: I didn't observe them doing
it, so I don't know if it's just
one or two animals that's doing it,
and maybe the others will learn.
I know I'm not using as
high a density as you are.
But, I was I was making it
much harder than I needed to.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: know,
oftentimes as human beings we way
overcomplicate things, Cal, one of
my mottos is keep it simple because
I've, I'll be explaining something to
my wife or one of my kids or something
like, Dad, you're overthinking it.
You got to back up a little bit
and rethink the process and,
talking about weeds, our cows eat.
Milkweed, horse nettle, hemp
dog vein, every plant that's
on our farm, they will eat.
Now, they
might, they won't necessarily
eat it to the ground.
Some of those plants are toxic,
and being that they're diluted
in their rations they're safe.
Like I tell people, if you have
a bottle of medicine, you take a
pill, it's medicine, but if you
take the whole bottle, it's poison.
And that's what
it's like with a lot of these toxic
weeds that I, in my opinion, I
think alfalfa is more toxic than
some of these weeds, because you
put a herd, you put a herd of
cows in on a 100 percent stand
of alfalfa, you're gonna, you're
gonna have a bunch of bloaters.
Track 1: Yeah,
Yeah, that medicine bottle's a good
example of that, because if you
take just a little bit, you're fine,
it's gonna help you out, there's
some benefit from it, but you take
the whole bottle, you got problems.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Yeah, big problems.
If you have one that's out there just
picking just that specific plant,
but that's not normally the case.
Track 1: One thing you mentioned
there was you went through and
cataloged all your species.
Tell us a little bit about the
process you did to do that and how you
recorded that and kept track of it.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Plant ID has
always been a thing since I've been a kid.
I probably knew every tree that was in a
forest when I was six or seven years old.
That was just a thing for me.
And, plant identification
has been a huge thing.
If I didn't, know what it was,
I'd be looking it up, and then we
have cell phones now, which are,
that, that's just like having
a dictionary in your pocket, or
An encyclopedia, so not able to
identify something, I'll run it through
Google, and Google will most generally
tell you what it is over the period
of time, we've done a lot of diverse
cover crops, and we had a ton of,
we've done a lot of Diversity, because
I've seen huge benefits in diversity.
I started cataloging the different
species of plants that we have.
Track 1: Are you keeping a list
like on your phone or on a computer?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah,
I have a list on the computer.
And one of the things that sparked
me to do this is in the state of
Pennsylvania we have 11 native prairies.
And the one prairie, I think
there are like 212 species or
something like that on 20 acres.
And I visited that prairie and
it's a booming ecological system.
It's just so productive and so beautiful.
And so I've started cataloging
the plants on our farm as well.
Track 1: Oh, very good.
And another thing you said talking
about getting your cows to eat
The weeds, you talked about the
density, gets them to be very
competitive in going after that grass.
Is there a certain breaking point
you've identified as to what density
they really start doing that more?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Usually at
about 250, 000 pounds that, and you
don't have to do it all the time, Cal.
If you're somebody that works off
the farm and most producers work off
the farm, and Do it on the weekends.
If you're home for a couple days, put your
cows in a high stock density situation,
move them four times a day or something,
and then take them back out of that.
Cause it doesn't
take that long.
It may take you, it may take
you a little longer to teach
those animals, but you still
will be able to do that
over a period of time.
Track 1: Yeah, great advice there.
If you're working off the farm, utilize
that weekend time to do some of that,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Oh yeah.
Track 1: I have not done
any high density grazing.
I don't even, I haven't even calculated
my density because I know it's so low.
That's something as I look forward
to this year is trying to do a
little bit higher density grazing
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: At one
time we at one time we and we
still do it if we see that we need
to really jumpstart a system we
ran 800, 000 pounds to the acre
And we did it as a demonstration
is what got me to doing this.
We did it as a demonstration
because we have.
Field days just about every year on
our farm that people can come and we
get speakers and all that but one of
the Demonstrations was to put cows
at 800, 000 pounds and then we've
had them at 400, 000 and then we took
them down, and so on and so forth,
but two years after That 800, 000
pounds, you could still see the growth.
It was,
that, that little piece of soil was
so much better than everything else.
It was just simply amazing, but those cows
was only in there for 20 minutes, okay?
They're packed in there,
they're in there for 20 minutes.
So we went and we got
flags, like for marking.
gas lines and stuff.
We got 500 flags and we went out and
we started marking manure and urine
spots and on that tenth of an acre
we ran out of flags and wasn't able
to mark them all and those animals
was only in there for 20 minutes.
Track 1: Oh,
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: That's
the distribution of the manure
and urine that we had and soil
cycling there's, it was amazing.
It was amazing and we still do it.
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: I
wouldn't recommend anybody to do
it to their whole farm in a year
because it would drive you crazy.
Track 1: Heh.
Oh yeah.
It's a good experiment to try and
one of the books I'm reading about
is sometimes we need to frame things
as experiments so we're not as
afraid to fail when we try stuff.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I One of my slides in some of the
presentations I do, the one slide that
says, let's make better mistakes tomorrow.
Track 1: Oh
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
That's how we learn, is with our
Track 1: It is.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: You
can't be afraid.
Track 1: yeah, sometimes that's difficult
because you're, we've been trained
for so long you gotta get it right
and some of us are perfectionists.
Now my wife would tell me
right off I'm not, I try.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah.
Yep.
Track 1: Russ really have enjoyed the
conversation, but it's time we Transition.
And I listened to the podcast and I
learned I use transition every time.
I need a thothorist to
look up some other words.
Anyway, time for us to transition
to our famous four questions.
Same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.
Our very first question, what
is your favorite grazing grass
related book or resource?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Do I have to just pick one?
Track 1: You can list as many as
you want and we'll keep them on
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
We'll we'll list my top three.
Track 1: Okay.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: one's
a textbook, it's Nature's, let
me see here, it's on my desk.
The Nature and Properties of
Soil is a textbook, and then
a book by Johan Zeitzman.
Man.
Cattle and veld.
That's like a, that is a really good book.
And then a magazine,
Stockman Grass Farmer.
Stockman Grass Farmer, there's articles
in there from farmers, teaching farmers,
and, there's a lot of good stuff there.
Track 1: There is
excellent resources there.
I'm not familiar with that textbook,
Nature and Property of Soil,
but it sounds like one that would
benefit me to be familiar with
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yeah, it
goes into microbes and how they're
working in the system, and and that
part of the soil that, us farmers
really don't know much about,
Track 1: Yeah.
Just on that, I don't know why I was
thinking about this earlier, but so
many farmers are just focused on their
livestock and not the grass and then
you really get deeper than it's the
soil health and what's going on there.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: yeah.
And that's what we did
when we were first started.
We were focused on the livestock and
we weren't focusing on the grass and,
whenever we flipped that, everything.
Got better.
Everything's gotten
really good.
Track 1: Our second question.
What is your favorite tool for the farm?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: It
would have to be my side by side.
That's my moving office I have everything
on it that I need out in the field.
If I need a hose washer, it's there If
I need a pair of pliers, it's on that
rig I built countless things for on
it Things I have a fence jumper on it.
I don't put down fences.
I just run them over I have
A reel holder on it so it holds the
reel and I can set the fence as I go,
and I have a reel winder, and then
I've put all kinds of lights on it, and
yeah.
You name it, it's been, it, that's
my tool, that's, That's my tool.
Track 1: Very good.
Our third question.
What would you tell someone
just getting started?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: That's a
great question, Cal, because I'd hate
folks, for folks to make the same
mistakes that I did, and I see a lot of
other folks making these same mistakes.
Whenever I started, I spent a ton
of money on equipment, and trying
to get everything that I needed.
Try not to get too much in debt.
That's where you're gonna, where
it's gonna hurt the hardest.
Even if it's just leasing a piece
of property and running stockers
for somebody to get you started,
that is probably the best way to
get started in the grazing world.
And it's not that hard, there's always
somebody looking for somebody to graze
cows and, a lot of times these, there's
properties out there that if you go in and
you explain to the landowner what you're
going to do, they'll get excited about it.
And it's doable.
Track 1: Actually, my wife and I had
a short conversation along those lines
earlier in that I'd mentioned this place
that I found that's not being used.
I've got to contact the owner.
It's a little ways from
my house, but I found it.
And I thought I've got
to contact them and see.
And I said, if I could get that lease.
She says, we don't have
enough cattle for that.
I said, oh, we can find cattle.
That's not a problem.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yep.
Track 1: can.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yep.
Track 1: And Russ, lastly, where can
other people find out more about you?
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
I can't hide anywhere, Cal I
I can't hide anywhere.
You can check my website out.
It's www.
russwilson.
net.
I also have a YouTube channel.
I'm pushing, I think, 275
videos or something like that.
Just do a search Russ Wilson
grazing because if you do just
Russ Wilson The quarterback
from whichever football team he
plays for comes up
You know just and you can actually just
google me Russ Wilson grazing and I'll
pop up and I also write for Stockman
Grass Farmer as well so you can find
my articles in Stockman Grass Farmer.
Track 1: Very good.
Russ, we really appreciate you
coming on and sharing with us today.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419:
Oh, thanks for having me, Cal.
It's, it's great to, to be able to
share knowledge and my main goal is
to help farms become more profitable.
So many times I see farms are just
struggling and the folks are just
miserable and if I can help, One or two
farms a year become more profitable.
I've done my job.
Track 1: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a worthy goal.
We can just help a few get there.
russ-_1_02-25-2024_172419: Yep