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The Disability and…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
Colin Hambrook
Welcome to the Disability and... podcast. I'm Colin Hambrook, the founding editor of Disability Arts Online, and I've got Paul Wilshaw with us here today, and we're going to be looking back over the last three years of Mind the Gap and Disability Arts Online, making podcasts together. And yeah, it's lovely to be in conversation with you, Paul, how are you doing?
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I'm doing well. And since the last time that we spoke, my job title in the company has now changed as well. So, when we carry on this podcast in the future, my job title has now changed to Engagement and Advocacy worker for Mind the Gap.
Colin Hambrook
And what does that mean Paul?
Paul Wilshaw
That entails that I go to careers fairs, and to schools, promote Mind the Gap's work, but also advocating for people with learning disability in the arts and talking to professionals about what artists can do. It's a great opportunity.
Colin Hambrook
That's, that's, terrific. My role at Disability Arts Online is also changing. So, I'm still sort of temporarily editor, but it's my hours have reduced, and I'm moving sideways towards working on a project that is about documenting the history of disability arts and reaching out to capture people's memories of disability arts and to do some oral history interviews. So, we're working at the moment on an application to the NHLF to secure funding to make that happen. But, yeah, lots of changes.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, lots of changes, but still, the best podcast around.
Colin Hambrook
Yes, indeed, looking back, what's it meant for you personally to be, to be doing the podcast for Mind the Gap.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, it's really meant something special for me. It's a really great time in the company, also, because I'm now actually mentoring one of our Performance Academy Alumni about podcasting. So, for the last three weeks, I've been actually mentoring one of our Performance Academy students who actually came onto the podcast in October time, and he's now learning all about it. So, for me, it's been a great progression of where I started from and now teaching someone else up around the skills of podcasting, which is great fun. They also Disability Arts Online gave me the opportunity and Mind the Gap, the opportunity to get into this, which I will always be grateful for, because I was always hounding our marketing person saying, I want to do a podcast. I want to do a podcast. And then after having a conversation with Disability Arts Online, it came about. So I was really grateful for Disability Arts Online giving me that opportunity and having so many great opportunities to talk to different people. It's been great fun.
Colin Hambrook
We're
Paul Wilshaw
changing, aren't we? We're changing the nature of the podcast. And Disability Arts Online is going to be continuing with a monthly Disability and... but Mind the Gap are also continuing with your own branded podcast too. So, we're still going to be carrying on with the podcast. We're going to go to every two months, and we're going to have a change of name, but we haven't come up with a name yet, so that might be something that our listeners could actually help us out with as well, is help us come up with a name for the new podcast, and it's mainly going to be about the work that we're doing with companies that are coming into Mind the Gap. Yeah.
Colin Hambrook
What plans have you, have you got? Who have you, who are you planning to interview?
Paul Wilshaw
At the moment, Mind the Gap haven't got anyone sign up officially yet, but we're hoping to speak to Teatr 21 which is a company coming over from Poland, who's going to be working with Mind the Gap, and also Bradford is city of culture, so we're going to be talking to people from city of culture and talking to our team here about that and their projects that we're going to be working on. As well as other exciting opportunities that are going to come up, which we don't know what's going to happen yet.
Colin Hambrook
That's a huge opportunity for Mind the Gap, Bradford being city of culture.
Paul Wilshaw
And who have you got coming up on your podcast? Colin?
Colin Hambrook
Well, we've got Colin Cameron, who is a disability studies professor at Northumbria University, and he's talking about the Equalities Act, definition of disability and how it goes against the human rights of disabled people, how it defines us in negative ways. It’s exciting stuff. I'm going to be stepping back a little bit more. I'll be doing the podcast occasionally, but not as much as I have been. I've really enjoyed doing the podcast. It's been a, really quite a steep learning curve for me. It's not, it's not something that I'd sort of ever thought I would be able to do. And it's, it's been great learning the skills and learning on the job, as it were, really, I think.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah I think that's definitely a case on our end as well. It's like listening back to stuff that I'd done right at the beginning of it, and how loud I was. So, I'm sorry listeners for how loud I was at the beginning to where I am now. I think it really does say a lot about how you learn on the job. It's just interesting that having that like 40 to 50 minutes of just finding out about a person, especially if you already know that person, and then you find out something new about them, I always find that the most interesting. I also hate listening back to myself. It's the one thing that I can't stand about hearing my own voice on a podcast. It's just one of those things where I'm like, if the guest is happy, I'm happy. It's the way I always look at it, because it's like they're giving us the opportunity to tell their story. In my mind, it's never about us presenters, it's always about the guests that we're talking to.
Colin Hambrook
Absolutely, I don't think any of us like the sound of our own voice, do we? I have similar feelings, although I've kind of, I kind of got used to it, really, having been doing the podcast for so long. So, have you had some favorite people on your podcast, who have you interviewed that's really sticks in your mind?
Paul Wilshaw
I say Documental's one, the first one I love to mention, because at the time the show was called, it's called Mary and the Matrons. But now that title has actually changed to Unreachable, which is a term that was actually used a lot in the 1960s about people with learning disabilities, was that we were unreachable. I think them talking about Mary Sheridan really meant a great deal, because it's a part of the history that I never knew about, but also the fact of that I'm able to still be in connection with the company, and they've just created a video about them working with a learning disabled company down in Exeter, also that's going to be taken to festivals and stuff, that's great. Talking to Tim and Ella Curtis about the Special Olympics was also a really special one for me, because I was like, I know about the history of the Paralympic movement, but I didn't really know much about the Special Olympics. And I've heard of them, and I know some history, but I didn't know much about Ella and Tim and the cycling side of it. So, hearing from them was really great. So those were two that stood out, mainly for me. But I mean, all our guests that we've had have meant different things to me in different ways, and the stuff that like Mind the Gap's doing as a company and like talking to Toby and talking to Charlotte and talking to learning disabled artists, that's really means a lot. And it was actually really nice. I was at an event in Manchester two months ago now, and I actually had two people come up to me and actually was like, we really loved the podcast. It was just really nice to hear that our messages are getting out there and that people are enjoying the podcast. So, I want to give a call out to the people from Story House in Chester who came up and said that they loved it. It really meant a lot to me on the day,
Colin Hambrook
I think, I think one of the standout podcasts for me that you produced , was your interview with James Leadbitter, the AKA, the vacuum cleaner. That was just an incredible kind of exploration of what care really means. And I just thought how he talked about wellbeing, and how he talked about how the systems kind of hijack us in terms of mental health, that was a really, really important one for me, because, you know, I come into disability arts from a background of mental health, and to hear James talking so eloquently about changing the system and thinking through ways for the system to work with people rather than against people. Which is, which is, what happens, you know, the institutions the way, the way the attitudes, the way it's the medicalisation of mental health are so oppressive, and you know, they need to change. They really, really do.
Paul Wilshaw
definitely. And James was such an interesting person for me personally, because I hadn't heard of him as much, It was a recommendation that was given to talk to James, and for that, I always do my research and just find out more information about gentlemen was just great. And like you said, the work that he's doing is such an important piece of work, and like the work he does over in other countries as well, around mental health, I really like the whole fact of planning the like, hospital kind of thing that he was mentioning. It just sounded so great and like it just shows that with creative thinking and actually time, that the stuff that we've got at the moment around mental health could easily get changed. It's just that the people in charge don't actually have that creative thinking brain on them because of funding and finances. I think it needs it needs the arts. It needs everyone to join forces to actually create opportunities and change a lot of the time. At that time, I think it also meant a lot more around my own mental health at the same time. Yeah, that was a great one. Yeah,
Colin Hambrook
I thought the the interview you did with Scott Price and Tamara Seale from Back to Back, that also stood out for me. They're talking about their show The Shadow Whose Prey the Hunter Becomes. What a great title for a play.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, they were great. You know, when you hear companies and you just like, okay, I want to see the show because basically of the title, the title really shone out. I got to see it when it was in Leeds, but I also got to see it when it was down in London. But just talking to them, it was interesting, because on that one, we actually done the recording in Leeds Playhouse, and that was something that was completely new. There's so many that I could go with that was special. I just want to say that it's been great experience to just work with everyone and them giving the time. I think people giving the time to us, to let us have a chat and explore, really does mean a lot. What's been your favourites? Colin,
Colin Hambrook
I really, really enjoyed interviewing Jamie Hale from CRIPtic Arts. I have huge amount of admiration for what CRIPtic Arts are doing. You know, their talent development programmes, the shows that they produce, so so groundbreaking and Jamie is so eloquent when he talks about his work, and he was talking about The Quality of Life is Not a Measurable Outcome, it was an evolution of a previous show Not Dying, and it turned from a show about coming to terms with living when your life expectancy is limited to a show about ableism within the NHS and it was framed around a Zoom care assessment panel discussing Jamie's health situation and making decisions about his life and he talks about the reworking of the show for the Telepresence stage, which is a really groundbreaking performance platform that has been developed by Brighton University. It's this, this incredible software where you, you create an animated digital backdrop, and actors can kind of drop into different spaces within that animated backdrop from anywhere in the world. And it's, a really revolutionary bit of technology that's being developed. I think one of the key things for Jamie was that, you know, if he's due to give a performance on stage, and due to a health situation, he's unable to do that, he can still give the show, but from his home. So, it means that the show doesn't have to be cancelled. And you know, the show will go on. I think it's quite groundbreaking for disabled actors in all sorts of ways. And I would urge our audience to look up Telepresence stage and to check out the showcases and the case studies there, because it's, it's it for, I think for disability arts in particular, it can mean, it can mean all sorts of ways in which we can, we can engage and be part of theatre that promises new ways of creating theatre. I can't say enough about it.
Paul Wilshaw
Jamie is just a brilliant person altogether. I had the pleasure of working with Jamie in the past, like you said about his work, it is groundbreaking.
Colin Hambrook
Jamie took on a really big challenge with telepresence stage in translating a section of that show that he's produced for with telepresence stage, but I think the software is also for actors who like to improvise, I think that's where it's one of its greatest strengths lies, because it really lends itself to improvisation.
Paul Wilshaw
That is one of the things that I really love, is improvisational work. So, it sounds like it's the perfect thing for me.
Colin Hambrook
Other people that I really, really enjoyed interviewing was there was Arthur Hughes. That was, that was a real moment for me interviewing Arthur Hughes, who played Shardlake in the Disney+ production of C J Samson books, yeah, it was an adaptation. And I loved interviewing Arthur. He was so passionate about the character Shardlake, who's a Tudor lawyer, and I'd long been a fan of the books, I think, in terms of historical fiction, Shardlake’s probably one of the most well thought through representations of disability in historical fiction. He's a Tudor lawyer who's working for Cromwell in the time when the monasteries were being dissolved by Henry the Eighth and he has physical disability with mobility problems, issues. And Arthur also is a disabled actor who kind of mirrors some of some of those impairment situations and so he, he was able to get under the skin of Shardlake in a really powerful way. And I loved hearing him talking about dissecting the personalities of the characters and talking through the minutiae of the emotional makeup of Shardlake and his counterpoint Barak, who's played by Anthony Boyle It was yeah, and Sean Bean played Cromwell. It was, it was big TV production, so, you know, quite unusual for Disney+, to do a show that was foregrounding a disabled actor playing a disabled character.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, and I think that's always important. It's like TV shows don't do that. We have had some real like non disabled people play disabled characters, and we've, we've talked about that in the past. A lot of people have so for a show like Disney, especially where there's so much connotation surrounding the new things, like the whole Snow White with Disney at the moment coming up, that they actually do show positive representation about disability, and use a disabled actor is really important at the same time,
Colin Hambrook
Paul, you put me in mind of the podcast that that we put out with Erin Pritchard talking to Steph Robson about her book Dwarfism, Arts and Advocacy, when she talks about positive representation of people with dwarfism, and they were talking quite a lot about Tam Reynolds, who I was excited to see in Liverpool, she has this performance persona called Midgette Bardot,
Paul Wilshaw
okay,
Colin Hambrook
which kind of takes you back through like 1000s of years of ideas of what it means to have dwarfism, all the stereotypes. But Tam Reynolds, she, she does this with such panache, such incredible comic timing. And she, she, she kind of takes on all these different personas, using these wild wigs for each persona. And yeah, it was, it was really interesting hearing about Tam on that podcast. And yeah, it was interesting them, hearing them talking about feeling more accepted as a person with dwarfism within the LGBTQ+ community, rather than in disability spaces. I think, I think it sort of spoke to, you know, ways in in which the disability communities need, need to, need to get, get more conscious, really, of what it means to be a disabled person who also has other identities. That was really interesting to me.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I think that's really interesting, that they felt more connected to that community, rather than just the disabled community. But I think it's such a hard thing also around the whole, who is your community? I talked to a friend of mine who has also said that he doesn't feel part of the non disabled community, but he doesn't also feel part of the disabled community, and how othering it makes him feel, so who is your tribe? Is a lot, thing he always thinks about like, what tribe do I belong to? what and who don't I belong to? But also the feeling of not feeling you can also say you've got a disability, and that's also coming up quite a bit of where people are not wanting to say they've got learning disabilities because they'll worry that they might not get a job, or it might cause problems for them in the future, you should always be just yourself if you don't want to mention that you've got a disability. I think that's I feel everyone's got their own right. But if it's going to help you, I would always say, use it and but also find your tribe, like my tribe is football. Football is my major thing. I always feel passionate about when I'm there. But also I do feel part of the disabled community and advocating for our rights. But I also know that it's hard for people because of the stigma, and we've got to get rid of the stigma in whatever way we can. We've got to try and get rid of the stigma that's around our titles.
Colin Hambrook
I agree totally. I think there's something about actually Jamie talks about that in the in the in the podcast I did with him too, about how there's something very fundamental about disability, that that is goes very deep within the psyche, and it kind of speaks about something very, very deep about the human condition, but also something that's quite terrifying to people outside of disability communities. And I think it's why that stigma exists, because people from the normative world are just constantly sort of in denial of the fact that one day they'll become a disabled person. And I it's, it's, it's a huge barrier, I think, to circumnavigate. You know, it's, it's, it's partly why I feel so passionate about disability arts, because I think it has a role to educate and to support us, to find our tribe and to find where we feel comfortable and ways to be in the world. It's, it's getting harder in so many ways, with the oppression being kind of forced on us. And you know, we have to come together more and more, and think we have to find ways of supporting each other.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, for me, prime example of that is when Mind the Gap done the project Zara with the big baby. And there were situations of where I was in Halifax, and we were getting little children running up and saying, baby, baby, to this giant baby that was the size of a double decker bus. And the parents actually pulling their children away from the baby, saying it was freaky and stuff. I think that says so much about how adults put so much of their own preconceptions onto children, and that's and then the children grow up to be adults, and then you carry on that cycle. And I think if we stop to just think of things as like, like you said that we all will become disabled in whatever way, even if that's through old age, through an accident or whatever, we will all become disabled in one way or another. And if we start to think like that, hopefully our opinions of stuff will change a lot more.
Colin Hambrook
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think one of the one of the other podcast guests who I really enjoyed talking to was Jasmine Thien, who's a freelance actor, writer, poet, with Extant theatre, and she was the key actor in the Superpower Panto which was Extants, I think it was its first venture into children's theatre, and I remember, you know, Jasmin talking about how tricky it was to get children's audiences to that show. And I think that speaks to what you're saying. You know about preconceptions about disability that parents put on their children. And she was really interesting because, you know, she was talking about growing up in Brunei, and she was talking about how she got into theatre, working with New Earth theatre, who are the longest running Southeast Asian touring company in the UK. And yeah, she went on to do a solo show as an associate with Extant called our Dream in Colour, which was a show about her experiences of growing up in an immigrant family that fled China. So there's kind of lots of interesting political positions that she'd sort of lived and was kind of working out through her performance work. And I'd love to catch up with her again.
Paul Wilshaw
Also another person you said that you really enjoyed talking to Colin was Tony Heaton.
Colin Hambrook
Yeah, yeah, that was an easy one, because Tony's someone that I've known for a very long time through the disability arts circles. And yeah, he was, he was, he was talking mainly about the DAM in Venice exhibition, the Crip Arte Spazio, which was at the Biennale through significant part of last year. And, yeah, he gave some really interesting background about getting to that point of Shape, being able to put that exhibition on. You know, there was 12 years plus of lobbying that went into getting to a point of getting a space in Venice, and he talks about an artist activist called Terry Smith, how he had been involved in something called the Venice Agendas that were pushing for access in what must be one of the most inaccessible cities in Europe, Venice is, you know, for anyone with mobility issues or with physical disability or sensory disability, you know, getting around Venice is quite a difficult job because the pavements are so uneven and you've got hundreds of bridges everywhere. It's beautiful, but boy, it's difficult. And yeah, Tony was talking about some very funny projects that he was involved in, in kind of raising awareness about access, where there was a bridge called the boxing bridge that they, they talked about where they took it on so that only wheelchair users could use the bridge. And they were this kind of, Tony seems to do that quite a bit in his work. Sort of sets up these, these kind of, quite physical, kind of confrontative situations, you know, like he did in the in the in the lift in in Newcastle, in the gallery in Newcastle, where, where he, he filled the lift full of wheelchair parts. So every time people went to use the lift, it was, you know, it was completely inaccessible.
Paul Wilshaw
It sounds completely like Tony. As I'm originally from Dorset. I actually used to go over to Holton Lee, so that's how I know Tony from that. So I don't think Tony probably remembers me from there, but that's how I know his work. So yeah, it's quite nice to actually hear about that. So, but yeah, that definitely sounds like Tony just causing chaos wherever he goes.
Colin Hambrook
Yeah, yeah. Indeed. I've enjoyed talking to everyone who I've had on the podcast. You know, it's been a wonderful challenge for me, kind of being a being a podcaster, and I've enjoyed every minute of it.
Paul Wilshaw
I have also, I think, from the very first one that I ever done with Julia Skelton as well. I think now that Julia has left the company and stuff, it kind of that her being the first one that I ever had a podcast with actually makes it more special, because she gave me that opportunity for her to be actually my guinea pig in a way. Yeah, it means so much that she gave me that time to actually explore how I done this podcast and how I have carried it on for the last three years. And hopefully we can get Julia back in the future to kind of find out where she is in her career, what she going to do now, after leaving Mind the Gap as a company.
Colin Hambrook
I look forward to listening in to that Paul, it's, it's been, it's been great, checking out your podcasts, and I think we've got a really terrific archive on the website. And there's been a really important and enjoyable journey for us, working, working with Mind the Gap and, yeah, we, and we, we really look forward to supporting you in future as well.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. But just to tell listeners that we will still be on Spotify with Disability Arts Online. It's just going to change it so that we're every two months. So you guys doing every month. I want to say a great bit thank you to you Colin personally, a great big thanks to Disability Arts Online for giving us this opportunity. And yeah, is there any further messages from you?
Colin Hambrook
I've really enjoyed doing this work with Mind the Gap and it's been lovely hearing your podcast, Paul, and look forward to more in the future. And a big thank you to everyone and to our listeners for tuning in.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, definitely, I want to say a big thank you to our listeners, also to guest presenters from Dan Foulds who is one of my best friends, and him and me have got a little bit of a competition going of what podcast got listened to the most. So please listen to some more of my podcasts so that my numbers could go up against him, but yeah, but no, I want to say a great big thank you to you guys. We really do appreciate it. And yeah, let us also know what you want to hear from us. What companies do you want to hear from? I think that will be great to hear. So if there's opportunities, let us know. So yeah, thank you
Colin Hambrook
and thank you.