Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
I Love Your Stories is a soulful conversation series hosted by artist and creative guide Hava Gurevich, where art meets authenticity. Each episode invites you into an intimate dialogue with artists, makers, and visionaries who are courageously crafting lives rooted in creativity, purpose, and self-expression.
From painters and poets to healers and community builders, these are the stories behind the work—the moments of doubt, discovery, grief, joy, and transformation. Through honest, heart-centred conversations, Hava explores how creativity can be both a healing force and a path to personal truth.
If you’re an artist, a dreamer, or someone drawn to a more intuitive and intentional way of living, this podcast will remind you that your story matters—and that the act of creating is a sacred, revolutionary act.
[MUSIC]
What if creativity isn't optional, but a
core human need,
right after food and sex?
That's the idea my guest, Michael
Gervich, or as I like to call him,
Misha, has been exploring
since our last conversation.
And today we're diving into part two.
Welcome back to all of your stories.
I'm your host, Habak Gervich.
And in this episode, we talk about
Misha's journey from
Silicon Valley software
developer to a life centered on
meditation, writing,
and creative exploration.
We get into how Misha's definition of
success has shifted from chasing
outcomes to feeling
fully alive in the process.
Whether he's building tools for
freeriding, presenting his ideas to
the Nest Labs community, or training for
an 1800 kilometer kite boarding
expedition in Brazil,
Misha is following the
spark of play wherever it leads.
If you've ever wondered what might open
up when you let
yourself create purely for
the joy of it, you're in the right place.
Welcome to this episode, Misha.
Now, quick word from our sponsor, and
then we'll get right back to the show.
When I started selling my art, I had
absolutely no idea how to actually turn
it into a business, a
professional business.
And then I came across Art Storefronts,
and that was a game changer.
I've been a customer now for years, and
they've been instrumental every step of
the way of helping me succeed.
I have a gorgeous,
powerful commerce website.
I have marketing tools and a membership
to a community that
is very supportive and
teaches me how to succeed as an artist.
Check them out, artstorefronts.com, and
tell them how I sent you.
Misha, I'm so happy to
have you back on the show.
And for those of you who haven't had a
chance to hear the first portion of
the interview, please do, it's an
incredible interview.
Thank you so much.
Misha has a background
in software development.
And you had sort of like a big change in
life and decided to follow a more
spiritual path.
And part of that was discovering your
connection to creativity and developing
this amazing writing tool, Aylis.
I love your stories.
That's the connection.
And it's a tool that I've been using as
well to just do stream of consciousness
writing, and I've used it to do morning
pages from, I forgot her name.
Julia Cameron, the artist for it.
The artist way.
Yeah.
Yes, I was living the dream, creating
software during the dot com boom in San
Francisco until I had an existential
crisis when my grandfather died and I
began asking questions.
Who am I?
What is all this?
Why am I doing any of this?
That began what really reignited in a
larger way, the spiritual path.
I'm throwing up air quotes and I'll
explain the quotes in a little bit.
So I became really dissatisfied with
external life, the way things were just
going to work and felt like
there was no meaning in it.
And I was consumed by the belief that I
had a deeper grade of purpose that I
must enact and realize on this planet and
that creating software was not the
way through that, I basically dropped out
of life or that level of life and went
to a place where I am
right now, Fairfield, Iowa.
I came back here for a month to rest and
recharge for a little
bit because there's a
school here.
It's called the Marisha University of
Management and
everything in that school is
based around meditation.
And I was convinced, still have, that I
had to go inside
because everywhere I looked
for answers outside,
I wasn't finding them.
And the pointers of people or legends,
mythical or real or
surreal, kept pointing
the way as within and one
of the ways is meditation.
So I dropped everything to go dive into
that with a seriousness.
So I enrolled in school here because
although everything is
about meditation, it's still
considered a university.
And I allowed myself, gave myself the
permission to take fun
classes, art classes, writing
classes, creativity.
And it was in the creative writing class
where we learned
about the artist's way and
Julia Cameron, and we
practiced the morning pages.
And I really felt a deep, meaningful
internal shift in my daily
experience when I allowed
myself to do that with no outcome other
than just having the
experience, going through
the process, allowing that expression to
happen without breaks
or without any sort of
limitation or expectation.
Yeah, that's the
important one, expectation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was such a powerful seed.
And I had no idea the influence, but that
little experience
temporally, because on different
scales, it was a massive experience,
which shift my life completely.
And I'm thinking of the word consuming,
but it's not the right word.
It's not consuming.
I would say feeding the opposite of
consuming, feeding my journey and
exploration and growth
and wantingness to be alive and to be
engaged on this path of exploration.
And it seems so insignificant.
You know, just looking at it from the
outside, you're just
sitting there and you just write
some pages.
It doesn't seem like anything externally.
And the same thing with meditation,
you're just sitting
there with your eyes closed
externally.
It doesn't seem like anything, but
exceptionally pivotal in
the way life has continued to
unfold instead of adjustment.
I find that really interesting because in
a way, there's a
perspective you can look at it and
say, yeah, it's just like 20 minutes in
the morning out of your entire day.
But I'm not sure how to say this analogy,
but basically, if you
scale up or scale out, look at
something and look at a trajectory, you
just need a fraction of a degree.
Change in direction and over time and
space, where that takes you
is vastly different and it
continues, that difference continues to
grow as you continue in time.
And another one that's kind of a more
physical one, like just
putting a pebble in a stream.
I know it's a tiny pebble and it might
not look like it's doing
much, but over time, that
accumulation, and especially if you put a
pebble every day,
there's also that kind of
accumulation.
And I think like what you said last time,
which was very freeing
for me to hear is that, you
know, some days I don't have time.
I want to do it, but I
just I don't have time.
I woke up late, you know, I have to get
ready for something and
push comes to shove and that
gets pushed out.
But it's yeah, that's good to know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But just knowing that it's there, just
knowing how grounding it is
when you do come back to it.
And when we spoke, we spoke a few months
ago for the first time,
and I was at that time, I was
very diligent about writing pages, sort
of starting a meditation
practice, whatever that
looked like.
I was very, you know, and it
was it was producing results.
It was really great.
But then life got busy, things happened.
And it's it's one of those it's one of
those things that because
they are small and because, you
know, from another perspective, they they
can seem sort of
insignificant, you know, and it only
takes a few times where you lapse and
suddenly you've kind
of shifted away from it.
But listening to you, I'm reminded that
just the fact that I know that it's
there, just the fact
that I know that I have that tool in my
toolbox and how important that tool is.
And, you know, feeling guilty or bad
about not doing it is
completely counterproductive.
When I reached out to you to do a second
part of the interview,
one of the first things you
told me is that our conversation, our
initial conversation got
you inspired and kind of you
had, can I say an epiphany or sort of
like you got sort of
like some ideas coalesced.
And I know that it happened for me, but I
would love to hear what
has been going on with you.
I would love to share it also.
But before we go there, can I share a
couple of things about what
you just said, which I feel
completely important.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you.
I really love what you said about it
being a tool, the meditation, in a
toolbox with possibly
many tools, including some that look like
the incredible art that
you create and so much of it.
Right.
And so one of the things that have
crystallized for me recently is the
thought of not mixing up
form with substance and that even though
we might not be using this tool in this
way in some calendar
we set up in our head about how we should
be doing things, maybe
we're using other tools.
And if we're not, we
know that they're there.
And hopefully we have some self-awareness
that if we feel life is going a little
bit in the other direction, we know
where to reach for those
tools to bring it back.
Yeah.
And that's part of the air quotes around
spirituality that I put up before.
There's not one way.
Some traditions would
say it's all the way.
There's no way but the way.
Because of our conversation before and
what it helped to crystallize, which was
like spending many
years on this question,
what's it all about?
Right.
And creativity and genuinely feeling and
experiencing the quality of life
differences that happen when allowing
expression to occur.
Not for outcome, but for process.
Right. There might be outcome anticipated or
not, but for the process of just clearing
the channels and letting
that energy come through.
The flow.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
The flow.
Which might look like an expression,
writing, painting, any of these
modalities, but it could be
something totally different.
Sports conversation, just sitting on a
bench somewhere, like that experience, it
happened, I guess, across
an infinity of circumstances.
So what happened after our conversation
was I belong to a community
called Nest Labs, NESS Labs.
So it's a very intentional community of
people seeking to improve their reality
in ways that they want.
And like scientists.
Right.
And one of the things that they do in the
community is to invite community members
to give a presentation.
And so that came up.
And after our
conversation, I was reflecting.
I think I have something to share.
Yeah, I think I think
there might be something.
Something worth sharing.
Right.
And so I agreed to it
and began the process of.
Trying to really nail down what is the
message of the thing that has
crystallized thinking, okay, how do I try
to bring all this together into a
presentation that is simple.
Concentrated.
But also.
Says the thing that I'm trying to say.
And I did, I did it, I did it, I did it.
I did it. It was my first presentation.
I've never given a presentation before
and I had to put it together
into like a like a like a PDF.
It was cool.
It was awesome.
It was a total flow experience that that
whole thing was a total flow experience
learning to use Canva to make the
graphics to link like it.
It was amazing.
And it came out great.
It was amazing.
The people in the
presentation, we had a little.
Workshop afterwards.
And they got to experience.
In small group.
What we talked about and they felt the
transformation in themselves, which was
basically allowing themselves to have the
experience of expression and fun.
So.
If that's not meandering enough.
Yeah, because I think you put
that in a really concise way.
And so I'm just going to read it because
I just pulled up email.
Basic.
It's basically recognizing the need to
let creativity happen as a core need
right after food to sustain our bodies
and sex to sustain the species.
All these functions are prerequisites so
that creativity can happen.
Something like
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
I hope I pronounced that correctly.
Yes. The base things get taken care of so that
we can occupy with self actualization.
Creativity is self actualization.
And then there's the question.
Why is it through creativity that our
whole species advances?
That's like that's yes.
We need to play and be creative so that
we may individually
and collectively advance.
It's not just frivolous.
It's very serious.
It's also hardwired into our neurology by
whatever genius designed us because we
are always inherently rewarded by great
feelings when we play and
allow ourselves to create.
I reading it again.
I realized that the word play only came in there once.
But in my mind when I was thinking about
what you know what you were talking about
what sort of stuck out to me is just how
important it is to play
to allow them to play.
And as kids it's something that you know
kids do this on their own.
It's encouraged.
And and then there is a certain point
where you're like
okay you're grown up now.
There's no more play. Now you have to play. You're grown up now.
There's no more play.
Now you have to work.
You have to be serious and all that.
And it's just I think what you're trying
to say is that having time to play in
whatever way that looks like for some
it's Legos or puzzles for others.
It's hiking for someone else that's
cooking or you know whatever or painting.
But it's it's not what you're doing.
It's why you're doing it.
It's all about the intent and I can be
doing the exact same activity.
I've got a pen and some
paper and I'm doodling.
It's the exact same activity.
What changes is the intent and with the
intent come all these expectations.
And in one case these preconceived
parameters that you put upon it and
internal and external pressures for how
it should look how you
should feel about it.
You know how what does it
mean for it to be successful.
And when it comes to play all of those
rules that get really thrown out the
window and you know to
answer how is it successful.
It's only successful.
The only requirement for it to be
successful is that you just do it.
There's it's not about the outcome.
It's about allowing yourself time to not
care about the outcome.
The way I think about it from my own
experience my own art is that there's
times when I'm very creative and things
flow and ideas come
and I'm just riding high.
There's other times when
I'm really trying to force it.
I'm kind of struggling and I always know
when I've run out of things to say
because I'm seeing the same recurring
shapes that I'm painting.
I'm seeing the same kind of passages.
I'm seeing the same thing and it's not
the thing that I like to like it's like I
do it but it's just it becomes kind of
like a rubber stamp.
And the only way to get out of it the
only way to get out of it is to come up
with something new and that's where the
creativity comes in and the only way you
can do that is if you
just let go of control.
And let go of intent let go of
expectation or the need the need to
invent something the need to create.
And it's kind of a paradigm like you have
to let go of the need to
create in order to actually create.
It's interesting.
And I also have the same experience
sometimes when I write I notice myself
looping over on the same
sentence again and again.
And I find that it's been super helpful
to not have it be wrong.
And so this this this was part of what
crystallized right this was in our
conversation also that we get to a point
of not caring and
before we can get to flow.
there's this experience of
I don't care what happens.
And and is pretty much the principle on
which is based like we get to not caring
the typos what we're saying the same
sense over and over the same shape the
same whatever it is
there's this level of.
Mental overseer that's looking and
judging and this is not good. This is
good. You know, we need something which
which can be helpful in some scenarios.
But when we're simply like expressing and
playing for just for that experience by
itself there's no wrong or right.
It's just whatever it is is whatever it
is this concept of giving ourselves
permission to do the thing even though it
might be wrong even though it might be
out of it even though it might be any
label we want to give it just giving ourselves permission to it.
Last opened the the gates of everything
and all of a sudden things can't come up
and out that wouldn't have before not
that they will and if they don't it's
still all okay because we don't care but
right the gates are open.
Yeah, sometimes you don't know you don't
recognize those gems when they first come
out because they don't look.
Because they don't look like your
expectations and that's the whole point
because if you're expecting something
then you already know it.
The events sit then there's no the
creativity is I think kind of inherently
there's a new something new.
And discovery and discovery and so you
know if you're if you're gonna have
expectations of what
that should look like.
You've already closed the door before you
even started absolutely how does that
what does play what does that look like
for you right now in your life.
Before we go there can I add one more
thing to what you just said yeah we might
not recognize it when it comes up.
We might also not recognize it because
we're in a state of ecstasy while it's
happening and we're not paying attention
to anything coming out we
have no idea what's coming out.
And it doesn't matter like our senses
aren't either they're not on that and it
won't be until later when we've had a
chance to step away from it.
Calm down a lot and then bring ourselves
back to it to look at the mess that we've
made and inside that
mess where are the gems.
Yeah it's sometimes it takes a long time
before you recognize those gems and.
Yeah and also they might not be visible
at the surface level in
a nice clean per session.
Right thing you might be pulling up on a
string that's connected to a vast network
underneath awareness.
And it might take a really long while
before what seems to be an
individual thing might start.
Making sense conceptually or at the
feeling level or however we want to
process it as the network that it is and
it might have a whole bunch of.
Yes.
Inspiration and artifacts and who knows
what that come along with it it might it
might turn into its own era of stuff.
And sometimes I think you know for me
introspection is a really plays a very
vital role in sort of my.
You know toolbox.
Because so many things that when they
when they are going right when things are
flowing in any part of my life and I
stopped to kind of like
examine how did I get here.
Along the way you know there's always
like if I kind of follow that thread back
along the way I will find times when
things felt like really shitty.
Times when I felt like I didn't have any
choice or I didn't have any you know
options or you know I setbacks.
And then also times when I put no
pressure on myself and you know started
something that started something that
started something and here I am now you
know reaping the benefits
of all of those some things.
Completely agree with you.
Yeah, I do the same
thing looking back in themes.
Like it's it's incredible inception that
we're having this
conversation of your stories podcast.
And that and that we met
many years ago like 2009.
And it through art connected
right we were having tuxita.
So the listeners of you might not know
tuxita was one of the first
that I'm aware of virtual.
Not always say.
Yeah, but like wasn't the character.
Yes, the character he created.
Yes, it was.
Yeah, it's a virtual character.
Yeah, which was so genius.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it was incredible.
Yeah, what he did created a virtual
character and he inserted himself with
Photoshop into all kinds
of different areas life.
Yeah, and it was it was so much fun and
somehow somehow like the but we started
creating our own our images
with this character in it.
Yeah, and this community formed around
this character creating our own images
and then there was this
virtual art exhibit.
What was it at the it seems like there's
some genius artists creating the whole
thing in which we get to be our own
genius artists within the whole thing.
And if we can allow ourselves the
permission and to use
the tools that we have to
bring ourselves into alignment with
whatever needs to be aligned
with so that it can happen.
We get rewarded at the beginning
inherently like we
feel good on the inside.
Yeah, it's fun, right?
And so this whole concept of fun.
It seems like it's not frivolous at all.
This was built into
us at a biology level.
It's written in DNA that when we have
fun, something good is
happening on the inside.
We're being triggered through the same
circuitry as food and sex survival
instincts also highly
pleasurable in all different ways.
And so this is what crystallized through
our conversation that
there's something really important about
allowing ourselves to have fun
slash be creative slash have whatever
experience there is in whatever context.
Even if it's just standing in line.
Yeah, right.
So let me ask you again.
Let's give back a question.
What does play look
like for you right now?
What?
Practically?
Practically.
Like in real life?
Yeah, like examples.
We've been talking.
I think we've been talking very
theoretically and
abstractly about these concepts.
And you know, and
they're very real concepts.
And I think like we've been making them
sound a little bit too lofty.
Well, yeah, and they're not right.
But yeah, so practically, the way I'm
playing these days is I love
to ride my electric unicycle.
And it's incredible.
It has suspension and off-road tire.
And when I ride it, I feel completely
free, totally unbounded,
and give myself the permission to go
within reason anywhere I want.
On-road, off-road.
I love this thing so much.
Because not only is it stimulating in so
many different ways, it's
also incredible flow training.
Because if I start thinking too much, and
I get this connected from
the experience of what's
happening in the moment now, very, very
much right now, while also
being present and aware of the
the environment and what's happening and
how I need to navigate,
whether around it or what to do,
extremely dynamic, it can have very
serious consequences.
I'm reminded that when we spoke last
time, you talked about kite boarding.
And there's so much similarity in the
sense of like one of the things,
one of the principal things that in this
type of play is that you
have to let go and be immersed
in the experience, being the moment.
Totally related.
And as soon as you're not in that, it can
have like serious consequences.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so these are my favorite things.
This is basically a different version of
Eyeless or Morning Pages or any other
low experience.
Right.
So like in the realm of sporty things,
this is what I love.
And kite boarding, yes.
Happy to share that in January and
February, I'm going for training to
become a kite boarding
instructor.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And not that I'm going to be an
instructor, maybe I will be, who knows.
But this is practice for a month long
expedition in Brazil in September to
travel 1,800 kilometers
around the northeast corner, the state of
Ciara on a kite board.
Oh my God.
And this is so out of my comfort zone, so
out of my sense of
identity, so out of all of these
mental levels of what
the hell are you doing?
Oh, wow.
I see a part three when
you're back from that experience.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It would be amazing.
Yeah.
And this is part of what's fun these days.
Taking the principles I've learned and
applying them in these other ways.
These sports are amazing
because you have to flow.
You have to be present.
You have to align with what's
happening in the environment.
People, whether so much is happening.
Yeah.
You can't be thinking about
your taxes or what you're doing.
Well, and that's another thing.
So part of that experience is becoming
aware of when that
awareness is slipping and loosening
up while it's happening.
Like I noticed when I'm riding on the
unicycle, I'm generally very loose now.
But sometimes my fingers, they start
getting a little bit,
not tight, not like clenched
hands, but just a little bit.
And that awareness that, okay, that's
happening, loosen up.
And so it's just reinforcing these
mechanisms of
self-awareness of being in the moment of
and having fun.
It's extremely fun.
When that's happening, just so much
reward on the inside.
Just feels so good.
It's amazing.
It's fun.
It's great.
I have another question that I ask.
And typically, I'm speaking with artists
or musicians who are
kind of producing something.
And in some way, that's to some degree
their vocation, let's just say.
Yeah, profession.
So yeah, profession.
And so this question, but I think I'm
going to ask you this question as well
because it still applies.
What is your definition of success right
now and how has it changed over time?
So I think it's changing right now.
Before my definition of success was, and
it still is, but I think it's evolving,
was to be very comfortable in the
process, to be happy in the question and
not needing the answer.
To take all this is that and that's all
there is at face value,
which has lots of implications.
If all this is that and that's all there
is, then there's no spirituality.
Why?
Because everything is spiritual.
If everything is spiritual, boy does not.
So that's the air quotes.
Right.
And so all of a sudden,
we take that at face value.
I'm okay in the question.
I'm okay in the process.
There's nowhere to go.
There's nothing to do.
This is it.
The West is done.
So now there's some more
time left on this planet.
What do you want to do with it?
So how is it changing?
So I think it's, I mean,
that's already success.
I'm good.
Right.
But there is some
more time on this planet.
So I think, I think somehow, as far as I
can, if through whatever happens next,
can somehow help somebody else give
themselves permission to do
their version of that, then
that's, I think that's a
good use of time in life.
I love that.
And, you know, and, and having a
conversation on a
podcast might just be that.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely.
Wow.
This has been amazing.
Definitely for those who didn't have a
chance to hear part one, absolutely worth
listening to, because even though this
episode stands is a
standalone episode, the first
one gives so much context to some of
those ideas that we're talking about.
And I love having the opportunity to come
back and expand on some of the things that
expand on some of these concepts.
And I'm looking forward to having another
conversation in the next chapter.
Just very quickly, like if somebody was
interested in learning more about you,
what you do, your philosophy, is there
someplace where they can go to find it?
No, I'm on, if anybody
wants to say, I am on Instagram,
Michael Garevich777.
There's not much about philosophy there.
Just some snapshots of moments in time.
Yeah.
But it's a way for someone to connect
with you if they want to talk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they can always go
to islais.io.yas.com.
There you go.
We'll have both links in
the notes for the episode.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for this.
Oh, thank you.
Enjoyable conversation.
Wonderful pleasure.
It's extremely exciting
to be on your podcast.
This is great.
Yeah.
And enjoy your time in Iowa.
It's so weird.
Thank you.
I don't think of Iowa as being a
spiritual place in any way.
Maybe that's why I'm biased.
No, it's definitely a beautiful,
wonderful, unique place with lots of
space to rest and breathe.
It doesn't have, as far as I can tell,
the ambient pressure
of many other places.
And yeah, after some intense times with
life doing life things,
it is a wonderful respite
to come and just chill for a
little bit before heading out.
I've lived on the East Coast.
I've lived on the West Coast.
And I have to say that one of the things
I really love about the Midwest,
is that people are just more friendly.
It's just very open.
It's much, much easier, especially as you
get to be older and you don't have
playdates and classes,
things like that, or even a
job where you meet other people.
It's much easier to have a social life
and find your people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It makes a big difference.
A welcoming community,
people saying, "Hi, good morning."
Makes a big difference.
It's a nice place.
And spirituality, if we don't conflate
form with substance, it's all...
It's all there.
It's all there.
Any supermarket is as
spiritual as any holy temple.
In a way, yes.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Allah.
Wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you very much.
Thanks again for tuning in.
That's our episode.
I hope you enjoyed it.
And if you did, please help us out by
leaving a review, a comment, subscribing,
sharing it with your friends.
Every little bit helps
and I really appreciate it.
And before we go, I want to give a huge
shout out to our sponsor
and producer, Art Storefronts.
If you've been thinking about turning
your art into a real
business or just want to level up
your online presence, now is honestly the
best time, especially
with the holiday selling
season coming up in Q4.
I can't stress this enough.
Art Storefronts isn't
just a website builder.
They're a full-blown
partner for your art business.
They give you the tools, education, and
marketing support to actually make sales,
not just sit online and hope.
And if you're unsure whether your art
will sell, no worries.
Just head to
artstorefronts.com and sign up for a demo.
They'll give you a free art review and a
marketing assessment of your art to show
you exactly what's possible.
So go to artstorefronts.com, tell them
how I've sent you, and I'll
catch you on the next episode.