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Emma shares about complex trauma, deprivation, and dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID). Educational, supportive, and inspiring, System Speak documents the best and worst of life through insights, conversations, and collaborations. An archive curated for dignity for all.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:This episode continues the previous conversation.
Speaker 1:And I guess, like, kind of going back to us laughing, coming up with those sort of, like, creative all the creativity that this work takes in terms of, like, internal world or internal landscape development, ways of communicating, communicating, creative interventions, creative harm reduction plans, ways to fulfill the demands of or the orders, the commands of the programming, but to do it, to find a loophole to do it in a way that can be a little bit safer for the client until you can really get underneath the programming to kind of process what happened to cause that, and that can often help to resolve it over time. But until you can get there, some of the the creative strategies are it can be fun to think about, you know, ways that we can incorporate our creativity and our creativity and our artistic sides, and our clients can incorporate theirs as well. Right? And so it does bring a little bit of fun to really, really difficult and challenging horrific topics.
Speaker 2:I think it's also a good opportunity to really affirm the science of it as well in that if fear is a threat response, when we are safe enough in therapy and in now time to be able to look at some of these issues and relationally, we are safe enough because panic is actually the attachment response, right? Feeling helpless in the face of the threat. And so when we have a safe enough attachment, so we're not alone in the fear, then such beautiful, beautiful work can unfold and our nervous systems being able to tolerate that, not overwhelming the limbic system, not overwhelming the brainstem, but bringing us back up into our frontal cortex, being able to think outside the box, having our right brains online, but also tended to, it is just really such beautiful work.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I adore your attention to the neurobio. It is admittedly one of my shortcomings in the work. For some reason, my brain almost, like, shuts off when I have to, like, learn something about neurobio, and I wish I could just, like, stand next to folks like you and just sort of get it through osmosis. But it is on my to do list, And I think it's a really important aspect of the work too.
Speaker 1:And a lot of the a lot of the perpetrators know about the neurobio, and they know how know how to manipulate it just like they know how to manipulate our attachment needs and many other things. Right? And so, yeah, thank you for bringing the neurobio into this aspect of the discussion. I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Anything else you want to say to clinicians specifically?
Speaker 1:Hi. I guess I have a couple of words of caution for clinicians in particular about working with this population. EMDR therapy, while a great modality, has the potential to be quite dangerous and maybe even lethal for folks who experience complex dissociation. And I hope that clinicians will refrain from using unmodified EMDR therapy with folks because the BLDAS or bilateral stimulation can prematurely break down dissociative barriers that folks might not be ready to have come down yet. The other thing is that, a couple of folks that I work with when I started to use some modified EMDR BLS with them, it triggered their suicide programming, and we really had to bounce back from that.
Speaker 1:Thankfully, nothing horrible happened. And, you know, I just know that that's not something I can use with them right now. And that was really good information for us both to have as well. But just for clinicians to kinda really make sure that they're prepared to use EMDR therapy with folks who experience complex dissociation and even more importantly than that, that the client is ready. The other word of caution I would have is about clinical hypnosis and using formal clinical hypnosis with folks who have an OEA or a RHAMCOA background.
Speaker 1:If we think back to Ellen Lachter's definition of mind control and programming or torture based mind control, it includes use of hypnosis, and it can feel really activating for clients to, you know, to experience that in therapy. It can be confusing for the client because that's maybe an induction or a strategy or a script or something that was used during their abuse. And one of my mentors when I was moving through my OSH certification for becoming a certified provider, used to always say, you know, 90% of my work and he didn't specialize in in complex dissociation at all. And I went to him on purpose because of that to just sort of get a more, like, robust sort of experience with it that wasn't so pinpointed. But, anyway, he would say 90% of my work is being hypnotic, and 10% of my work is doing hypnosis.
Speaker 1:And it took a really long time for me to understand what he meant. And I guess if I were to just to distill that down now, it's that we don't really need with this population the formal inductions or the scripts or the, you know, super relaxed tone of voice, those things can really backfire on us and on our clients. They can create safety concerns. It can make the client afraid that we are affiliated with the perpetrator group or remind them of something bad that happened to them or some things bad that happened to them. And it can also feel really manipulative or coercive and that in order to get a certain part to come talk to us that we have to do this, like, hypnosis thing to get that to happen when I think that we ought to be moving through this work, giving our client the most autonomy and choice.
Speaker 1:And if parts want to come and talk with us, then that ought to be happening because they want to, not because we're using some modality to cause it to happen. And so I think that being trained in clinical hypnosis is imperative and necessary because it teaches us how to work with trans logic and about the importance of language. So basic things like if we say let's say somebody has an issue with overeating Reese's peanut butter cups. Right? If we say to that person, next time you see while they're in a trance, next time you see the Reese's peanut butter cups, don't grab one.
Speaker 1:It's not going to work. We would probably say something along the lines of when you notice the Reese's peanut butter cups, you might take a breath and notice that you can walk in the other direction. And so hypnosis teaches us to be more attuned to our language and to the creative capacities of the mind to all the all the kind of creative aspects of this work. Like we kind of talked briefly about earlier, like internal landscape development and developing of communication and all those types of things.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I, I agree with that and highly recommend anyone working with complex trauma or dissociative disorders, getting at least a level one hypnosis education, training experience, even if you've never actually use hypnosis. Like you said, just to understand trans and how it works because these folks are already in trans so often and in and out of trans for sure. So like we can't work well with it without understanding it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I guess the last kind of message I'd have for clinicians is that this work is really slow. It's really long term to be patient with yourself and with the folks that you're working with to take care of yourself. Because if you do not do that, you won't be able to help take care or hold space for anybody else. To get consultation, even if you really know what you're doing, I I get consultation monthly from at least one, if not more than one consultant to make sure that I am not, like, getting tunnel vision on things or even just to have a space to talk with other clinicians about the challenges that come up with this work.
Speaker 1:And lastly, that it would not be uncommon if your client is still being hurt. It it could not be happening, and that would be that's fantastic if it is not. But just to be aware that that might be happening without your or even a number of the other parts of the client's awareness. And so to always just sort of be checking in on that safe enough kind of thinking. And that can be a lot for clinicians to hold if they have awareness that a client is being accessed.
Speaker 1:And so again, getting consultation and going to our own therapy to help us to manage the countertransferential elements that come up when we have awareness that somebody that we're working with is being harmed.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. What about with survivors? Any last words for survivors?
Speaker 1:Goodness. I mean, I mean, man, so many things I would wanna say to survivors, mainly that I'm so glad that you survived. And what survivors endure is absolutely horrific. And you can move through and find a quality of life that is filled with care and hope and compassion. I encourage survivors to get lots of support, whether it be from a therapist or support people in their life.
Speaker 1:Joining groups multiplied by one is a great resource. However, there can be some safety concerns with group work. And so if you think that you have a a history that might include OEA or Ramcoa to make sure that you're, you know, working through that with somebody who can at least help you to identify if there are safety concerns in the group work. That's a point that I think a lot of folks maybe aren't aware of and that those safety concerns may not be intentional on the part of other group members.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you brought that up about the group work and peer support because System Speak also has a community, but we do not have a REMCOA or OEA specific group. And the reason for that is simply a legality issue because I have been targeted by some of those abusers who are known to target clinicians who try to help. And because of that and police involvement, I'm literally not able to do so right now. Am constrained by that legal process. And so it's, I just wanted to make that explicit because I don't want those folks neglected or to feel like we're avoiding it.
Speaker 2:It is just not a legal possibility at this time for safety of me and my family.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I'm so glad that you are honoring that. And I'm sorry that you are having to even be in this position at all. But I'm so glad that you are making sure that you and yours are safe, and that way you can continue to extend a hand to other folks.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. And I also want to, while we're talking about hypnotic suggestions and trends, I wanna make sure everybody's coming up for air and getting grounded back in their bodies. And also that those are not really your actual literal last words because you have so many other things to say and to present. And we're writing a book together actually with another colleague friend. When is your, oh, your presentation will have already aired by then.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But if folks didn't get to catch it, and they're a clinician, I am lecturing for ISSTD on August 14 from five to 8PM eastern time. I believe it's recorded. All their web webinars are recorded, and I'm really looking forward to that. It's a tenuous topic, like we talked about earlier.
Speaker 2:Well done. Well done. I so appreciate you coming on to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I so appreciate you having me and this was super fun. So I wish everybody who's listening a fantastic rest of their day or night or whatever. And if folks ever have questions or are interested in connecting, I am never opposed to getting an email.
Speaker 2:We will have your information in the show notes that you sent to me already, and we will invite you back with Sophie when we are ready to announce our book. I'm ready for it next year so I'll get to writing something.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, yeah me too but after my
Speaker 2:August thing. Absolutely! I'm so excited, thank you so much for being here today. It was tricky because you have so much and clinicians need to hear that and I know what we covered today was still so basic And also I had to keep oversimplifying to keep survivors. Like, Oh yeah, we're still here.
Speaker 2:We're still here. Like regrounding, just bringing my voice back in just to try to add safety. But I didn't mean to at all, like, water down what you're trying to No.
Speaker 1:Not at all. Yeah. I was like, I hope this isn't too much. Like, I hope this is okay.
Speaker 2:It was amazing. If you have time, could you send me some of the books you referenced so that I can link to them in the show notes? And then if you want, like, if you have a website or an email or something, anything you want for people in the show notes, And then I would like whatever that lactor thing was that I need to take to therapy. I need just that, please.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've
Speaker 2:walked through not just the bite model, but what's that other scale? The Ben Benowitz? Ben I
Speaker 1:know that one.
Speaker 2:I can't remember what it's called. I've walked through that one, but I did not know Ellen Lachter had one specifically of, like, defining. And I was just uh-huh.
Speaker 1:No. And and hers is, like, is pretty on the mark.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So maybe I need just those two slides if you don't mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I can totally and her definition actually is in one of the books that I'm gonna send you. So I'm happy to give you the slides, but then I can also, like, point you to the page number in the book if you decide to get it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Welcome. This is so fun. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And I have a question. Mhmm. Why isn't your presentation listed on the most recent call, your September 1?
Speaker 2:I didn't know that it wasn't.
Speaker 1:They sent out an email, that was like upcoming trainings, and yours wasn't there.
Speaker 2:Weird. I will ask.
Speaker 1:But it was not listed on the most recent, like, upcoming classes. Alright. So I hope you have an awesome weekend, and yay. Thank you. You're welcome.
Speaker 1:Bye, Nora. Bye. Bye.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to us, and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too. That's what peer support is all about.
Speaker 2:Being human together. So yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.