Are you feeling swamped by the demands of being a principal? From juggling emails, calls, and decisions to boosting test scores and wading through endless paperwork, the pressure is real.
But imagine a scenario where you no longer feel this overwhelming stress. Picture yourself as a more resilient leader, concentrating on enhancing your school rather than merely coping with the daily tasks that currently consume your time.
I‘m Barb Flowers. Drawing upon my eight-year experience as an elementary principal, with a Ph.D. in Educational Leadership and certification as a life coach, Along the way, I've mentored and coached school leaders, guiding them to change their mindset, set boundaries and focus on their own well-being while navigating their roles.
Each episode offers practical insights on time management, communication, overcoming overwhelm, boosting confidence, and fostering a positive mindset. We'll also discuss topics like working with stakeholders, implementing new initiatives, and managing discipline. Let's set boundaries, focus on well-being, and reignite your passion for being a principal. Welcome to "The Principal's Handbook."
I firmly believe that to be an impactful educator, you must first become a confident and well-rounded individual. Join us in this journey to empower and enhance your confidence as a school leader.
Reimagining Special Education: A Conversation with Kate Anderson Foley
Speaker 5: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Principal's Handbook, your go to resource for principals looking to revamp their leadership approach and prioritize self care. I'm Barb Flowers, a certified life coach with eight years of experience as an elementary principal. Tune in each week as we delve into strategies for boosting mental resilience, managing time effectively, and nurturing overall wellness.
From tackling daily challenges to maintaining a healthy work life balance. We'll navigate the complexities of school leadership together. Join me in fostering your sense of purpose as a principal and reigniting your passion for the job. Welcome to a podcast where your wellbeing is the top priority.
Welcome everyone to the podcast today. I'm excited to be here with our guests. We have Kate Anderson Foley with us, and I'm going to start by just having Kate tell us about herself and her career in education. Thank you,
Speaker 2: Barb. So I have been in the public sector for close to 27 [00:01:00] years and went from site based, county level, big city to state and did a little bit of work at the federal level.
Areas of expertise are the school improvement process, strategic planning. Special education and special education law. And so in the end of 2018, I started the education policy and practice group. So I work with districts, principal leadership teams around the state internationally. , to make sure that they are supported so our students can get the most ambitious outcomes possible.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's such a huge thing, that's why I started the work that I'm doing as well as principals, policy makers, educators, everybody, they need as much support as they can get so that they are able to make the decisions and really make the changes that they need to make., Today I just have some, I want to have a [00:02:00] conversation about special education because I think this is a huge topic, , that, you know, I'm very passionate about when we think about systems and systematic issues in education.
, and you have a lot of different experiences. So I think that, , you bring so much to this conversation. I'm excited for it today. , but what do you see as the most significant gaps in our current special education system that families encounter and that educators encounter?
Speaker 2: For me, and that was part of my work throughout my 27 years in public schools, leading public schools, and the transformation and the school improvement process, was that there's this disparate thing that happens in schools.
There's education, there's what's known as RTI, response to intervention, multi tiered system of support, and, , special education. And it's been my experience that both RTI and [00:03:00] MTSS has been insufficient. It was insufficient before the pandemic. And it's certainly, , showing itself to be insufficient now because we have a large number of students who are being referred for special education.
In fact, I wrote about this last week in my newsletter that, the increase from before to 2023. Almost a, you know, over a half a million students. Now just stop and think about that number.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that's a symptom of a larger issue. And because I'm a systems thinker, I'm very strategic in how I look at things, but I also see the interconnectedness.
And what I have seen and my experience has been, there's just continues to be a disconnect. And so, throughout my work and my research, I developed what's called the double helix [00:04:00] system of support, where we stop identifying students and identify the interventions. Yeah. We not, so when you think about that triangle, you know, pointing up or pointing down, it's still directional.
But the double helix. Doesn't do that. The double helix is non directional, which means we look at the students on the full continuum of students from the highest achievers to students who are struggling to students learning English to students on IEPs, 504s, et cetera, new newcomers, all of it. And you place them on that continuum.
And then we, the adult. And we, the adults, comprehensively situate ourselves within the classroom. Of course, you're co designing, you're doing all the things that you need to do. You're bringing your best professional selves with them. But then you're able to, , create ambitious learning with stretch. [00:05:00] And it's nimble, which means it's adaptive.
And it's responsive, meaning it's real time. So when I said how things are, , insufficient and RTI model or an MTSS model, although people sometimes mash them together, they're not, , there's a cycle while we have to wait six weeks. Yeah, do the same thing over and over again and hope that there's a different result where the double helix says, no, let's do things in real time.
Let's adapt, let's change and let's pivot. But the components are, and this is where the big differences are. There's clarity around what it is that we are all learning and that. Is the collaborative team structure, we all know what it is that we're focusing on and to ensure learning and not just that the students are being taught, right?
The other part is to do with the design features themselves. So if you have a [00:06:00] student, we're going to talk special ed, you have a student on IEP, that doesn't mean that they can't learn it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: Just means that they, they have to come at it perhaps in a different way. Right? Or their splinter skills, or they're twice exceptional, whatever it is.
So you bring those specialists that are working with the student within that design process and delivery process. And I'll give a quick example when I'm done. And the third component of the double helix is shared accountability. So we're no longer handing off the student to say, well, there's special ed.
So it's, you know, teacher down the hall, or there were a speech only so it's that person, , etc. Instead we it's an inside out change.
Speaker: , you said a couple of things I want to stop right there and talk about that I think are really good one you talked about. Looking at the intervention, I saw that when I started in the [00:07:00] building, , that I had just recently left in public education, that was a huge thing was teachers would come with their opinions.
Right? I think this student is special ed. Okay. So where's the data? Where's the interventions that have been done? You know, so that was one conversation that had to be had. Another one was, Okay. What is intervention and you talked about clarity around what kids are learning. And I think that's a huge thing because I always had to have the conversation with my teachers.
Intervention is a form of teaching. It's not getting on a math program and practicing facts. If you're not teaching them a new strategy, it's not an intervention. Like they have to be learning. So I thought that was something great that you're talking about in your formula.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah. Thank you very much.
, and, but, and that's, that's the truth of it. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: In times and especially think back to, and again, I've written about this, think back to the amount of money that's been poured into public schools across the nation. [00:08:00] And so many of those, I'm going to use the term vendor agnostically, but vendors said, we can do this, we can do that, you know, make it easy, et cetera.
I term that as razzle dazzle. Kind of like the, notion of, you know, if you ever saw the movie or the musical Chicago, where, you know, the lawyer played by, , uh,, Richard Greer, you know, Billy Flynn, he's razzle dazzling the entire jury to where they can no longer discern facts from fiction.
And that's what spenders do oftentimes, but the real magic. happens inside the classroom with the teachers. So what I love to do is work with schools and districts to really support the teachers because they need to then turn around and support students. But we can't just blame teachers to say, well, you didn't do this and you didn't do that.
Perhaps they needed support. [00:09:00] And, , this notion of stopping to work, stop working in isolation and work in collaboration. I'm a fan of collaborative team structure. , some people call them professional learning communities. Some people call them teacher based teams, whatever that structure is.
This is the difference again with , my work is that we always put in, where's the special ed? Where's the, this and that, how can we all work together in grades, across grades, across subjects, you know? So I think sometimes people think it's impossible when actually it's very methodical and scientific.
Speaker 3: You
Speaker 2: can do these things, but the number one non negotiable for me, and I'm, I hope it is for every principal and leader is you must have high expectations for the staff for students.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like that is my number one, uh, non negotiable. And oftentimes when I was leading districts, they would say those students, [00:10:00] that parent, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And, and you'd say, well, so what are you doing?
Speaker: Right, right. And, yeah. And I see that a lot with special education when we talk about that. One, I think there's an issue of teacher knowledge when it comes to special education because people who are certified in special education are usually K 12. They're learning about disabilities, IEP writing, so sometimes they don't get as much instructional knowledge.
They need more training than what they necessarily have to go into these situations. And I think it's even with that, with teachers, we assume, and I did a lot of this when I came into my school, that they know what intervention is and everybody knows what that means. And so we just talk about this, like it's a known, known vocabulary versus let's break down what is an intervention at the, at its core.
What does that look like? What's not an intervention. What is progress monitoring versus the intervention, like breaking all these things up for teachers and really teaching [00:11:00] them what that means. And the other thing I think that goes along with what you're saying is a lot of times when kids get put into special education and are identified, they are actually getting less support.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And that certainly has been my experience. And that's why I. Advocated and sometimes fought for this child isn't quote unquote disabled, but if you if you make it happen, then they will de facto become special ed. Yes, you are keeping them away from all the good stuff. So I, I always use this phrase, they are first and foremost, a student.
And then they have some other complexity, and so be it, right?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: What I've noticed in the past, well, since 2017, um, when I was at the state level, and the Andrew F. Supreme Court case [00:12:00] was, , known and, you know, unanimously ruled upon, created a higher standard. I did research across the country, like a 50 , state scan, , in 2019, I, you know, published something with CCSSO and that many states and thus many districts weren't implementing the higher standard.
Well, we would say, well, these, this all makes sense. The Supreme Court had to really spell it out. A substantive obligation. That means, meaty, right? For free and appropriate public education. And then the accountability for that substantive progress. And that this is where I find the most that I can really help districts with is that the IEPs need to be prospective.
So that fact base that you talked about of what's the intervention, what was the successful, what was the progress monitoring, right? Like what, where are we and where do we want to take the student and ensure [00:13:00] that within a year, they've grown at least a year, right?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Whatever that
Speaker 2: looks like for that child, but it has to be ambitious.
And that, , you know, you use a variety of data, so that's where, , again, with the book I, , wrote, has to do with how do you create a comprehensive improvement process that fits everybody, and so when we talk about data, well, what data are we using for all of our students, and then are there some tweaks to it that maybe need to be pulled on the thread for just that IEP?
And so be it, or, you know, whatever the plan might be, but those things together, , create a comprehensive system. And so my double helix is actually the foundation. For the improvement process, and that's the flip because the usually improvement processes start way up here, high level, you know, these arbitrary kind of [00:14:00] goals, and then, it's just again arbitrarily down cascading into schools, and nobody really knows what's going on and you just do your own thing anyway.
So when I work with districts and schools, and we go through that process, Then I support them and we look at the evidence. So that's my term. So what's your evidence that it's been impactful? Meaning, how do you know? It's not a criticism. It's an inquiry, right? Oh, , because if it's working, we need to accelerate it, right?
And if it's not working and you've got proof, it's not working, you need to stop doing it.
Speaker: Right. And I think with data, I think the biggest mistake we make and teachers is taking it super personal versus taking it, looking at it and getting curious, . Just coming in with this open mind of , okay, let's look at this data.
What is it saying? You know, what's good about it? What's bad about it? And just really being curious versus taking it so personal that it means something [00:15:00] about them.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. One of my colleagues just said not too long ago. Data analysis should be a treasure hunt, not a witch hunt, meaning we're not here to pass the blame or, you know, source you out.
But if we keep students at the center of every single decision, then it takes it away from that personal, it's not about me, it's about What is that intervention? Or what is that accelerated strategy that we were going to be using? And is it working? Yeah. Because if it's working for everybody and then it works for the students who, again, we bring up the amount of students who are being, I'm going to use the term boldly, falsely, inaccurately identified as special education, then we can write What's going on right now that to me, that is the biggest clarion call for all of us in education because special education while it's natural part of the world, you don't see such [00:16:00] an increase in such a short amount of time,
Speaker: right?
Speaker 2: That's the symptom that's going on right
Speaker: now. Right. And I think, you know, I always go back to the science of reading, but I think what I've learned so much about the training that we've had on that is kids with dyslexia, right? It can be a disability, but really what it comes down to is they just need a different kind of instruction.
Correct. And if you give them that instruction, they will be fine. , it's not like they need an IEP if they have this explicit instruction, which benefits all students. Right,
Speaker 2: right. No, I mean. So the science of reading and those, you know, those methodologies such as phonics and everything else. I know when I was a teacher, absolutely, you know, phonics, it sounds crazy, but even left to right, you know, well, all of those things that seem simple.
Yet, when we see students in eighth grade and ninth grade and 10th grade, and teachers say, well, they can't read, well, you can't pull it down to a first grade reading [00:17:00] text. How are you going to scaffold? the actual science of reading where they are and the engagement piece that goes with that. And that I think a comprehensive approach is absolutely required.
Speaker: And I think if there's one thing, you know, we talked about how kids are identified and then, you know, sometimes the services are less. Then, , typical just gen ed services. The saddest thing I think I see, and you've probably seen from a systematic approach, then are these kids that graduate high school and they can't read.
I think the reading coach I worked with said they need to be able to read by it at a fifth or sixth grade level to be successful in life. , and that's just, you know, it's really sad to think about those kids that have just been passed along because they have this, you know, they're identified as special ed.
Speaker 2: Right. And to your point, and again, I do, you know, I've advocated for this, I've written about this, et cetera, that we owe it to [00:18:00] our students to graduate with a regular diploma. So not only does it, you know, end formally the special ed IDEA, but it guarantees them an entry door into a good life, right? Yeah.
All you have is a certificate of attendance. Your trajectory is dismal.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I've always worked with parents, from personal education with them, to parent academies, to making sure all the policies were in regular language and not using jargon, so parents can be equipped and be better partners by our side, rather than being intimidated at the table.
I don't understand what's going on. So I'll agree. Right, right, right.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think it's also making parents feel valued. I remember I taught third grade. Yeah. And I had a mom who the daughter really struggled to read and I had been in first grade in the [00:19:00] move to third. So I remember another teacher had her in first grade and she was way below level.
And I got the mom on board with just meeting with me and and encouraging her on reading with their daughter and seeing the progress. And her daughter took off. I've never seen progress like that in a year where she went from below to like above where she was, you know, above average. And I remember thinking part of it was that mom felt empowered.
She felt like she was making a difference as the mom helping her daughter learn to read. Yes. And those are great success stories. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's just one out of how many hundreds of thousands,
Speaker: right? Right. So I think, I think one is the more we can empower parents and make them feel like they have a seat at the table, even when they're not involved, like you just, As the school leader, making them understand how important their involvement is, I think is huge.
What other strategies or tips do you have? Because principals, the interesting thing about school leaders is we all come in with a different [00:20:00] level and background knowledge of special education as we take on leadership in a building. So if you're a principal who doesn't have a lot of knowledge about it or, you know, what, what tips would you have for them in all of this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I, I, they need to seek out the knowledge.
Speaker 3: You
Speaker 2: know, certainly you're more than welcome to contact me. You know, I do teach a special ed law course, uh, to aspiring principals and superintendents because I saw the gap and it's not just the law of cases, but it's practicality. The other thing is this.
I do a lot of executive coaching and. With principals, especially because they've got a lot on their shoulders.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They're isolated and they see they need to forward face that I've got this and in turn inside they're going, I don't know. Right? Right. And so, and rightly so. Um, so I [00:21:00] do a lot of executive coaching on that.
So really building up not only their skill set, but helping them to be vulnerable. Within the coaching scenario, but also with some staff to be able to say, I might not know all the answers, but this is what I know, Barb, you are an excellent expert in this and this and this and then, all the people and then we're going to put together a comprehensive approach, but we're not going to do 10, 000 things.
We're going to do things. Like three things really well, and we're going to keep our data and we're going to analyze it and we're going to make modifications and adjustments accordingly. A new principle starting out. Remember, as you probably well know, many people left. , during the pandemic, and then many people are leaving now because of other things, and we really need to support the building and district leadership in saying, [00:22:00] like stepping back, looking at things comprehensively.
And so, , I do, I take people through an equity audit, which, you know, has the conditions for a holistic system.
Speaker 3: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: But not haphazard, it's very comprehensive and it creates interdependencies. Across the organization and within the organization. And that's the thing that really helps principals to go.
Someone's got me. They're holding me. They're working with me. They're supporting me. They're empowering me to do some make some really good decisions. And then, at the end, they get to celebrate those successes, right?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, I think that's huge. And I think as principals, if you are going into the role, maybe you're a new leader, or you're just not comfortable with special ed, I think you had a great point, , you need to seek out the resources and really learn about it.
I went in, , I was an inclusion teacher as a classroom teacher, but [00:23:00] still, I had to learn a lot about special ed law. And I, you know, I learned a lot from my, , um, special ed director, , and then going to a lot of conferences and one of the options would be going , to classes on special ed law.
And it was always picking that, which if you're looking at a book of classes, usually that's not the one people want to go to. That's right. But it will keep you out of a lot of trouble and , you need to know these things. And so I would suggest to principals that if you don't have anybody who's knowledgeable to help you, , reach out to Kate.
Having somebody who can help you, coach you through some of those things, I think is really important to go through systems. Because special ed is where you can get in a lot of trouble if you're not really on top of it. And knowing that you're following all the correct procedures. And knowing that you're doing everything that you should be doing to serve students.
Speaker 2: Yep. Thank you for that.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. So, , last thing I want to talk about is just inclusive education. So I feel like this has changed a lot [00:24:00] and everybody looks at inclusion different, right? We hear this term inclusion. I laugh when I taught. , at one point, this is really terrible, but my first year at my school, where there were multiple elementaries when I was teaching, the students who had been identified on an IEP would get on a bus and go to another school, which is insane to me to even think that was happening.
, and so then they brought, we got a new superintendent, they brought him. All back, they wanted to do inclusion, but what I laugh and I think about when I had inclusion was I had out of 22 first graders 15 on an IEP and I had an intervention specialist for 30 minutes for reading 30 minutes for math.
There you go. There's your inclusion. , and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that, right? Inclusion looks different in so many ways. And then when I was a principal, we had a special ed teacher for third grade co teaching, fourth grade co teaching, fifth grade life. That is how it was supposed to be done, right?
And so what is your definition of inclusive [00:25:00] education? And how have you seen this change over time?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, , I describe it in detail and I give specific examples of how it's done, , in my latest book of how to do just what you said. , it's not that a model it's. the practice.
,
but to go back in time, just a real fast, when I was a special ed teacher starting out, mainstreaming was the thing, right?
To your point, you know, bussing kids, bringing back , oh my gosh, where do they belong? They belong in their school with their friends, right? And so really advocating for that. But I ran into a lot of barriers. , teachers were fearful, and so when you get to the root of the root, what is that fear about?
They don't know. So if I, you know, brussel and bristle you and, you know, turn you out of my classroom, I've protected myself, right? I can close my door and teach again.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've had teachers, , believe it or not, you know, step on my feet. Like all kinds [00:26:00] of things happened to me because I was advocating for students.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: fast forward. , so when I say I keep students at the center of everything I do, those are the students, like they belong there. They're a fifth grade, they belong in a fifth grade classroom, , all of those things. So fast forward to the progressive, , nature of just special education and how it's evolved, and I'll bring back that higher standard of Andrew F.
That's where a comprehensive adult situated within the classroom within the grade band, , however, you're configured. But I do say to principals and superintendents, well, we might need to look at the bell schedule. If it's not conducive, we need to make it conducive. If you don't have time for your collaborative team structure on a weekly basis or biweekly basis to look At all of that, then we need to address those as well.
When I come to the topic of inclusive education, I kind of push through , the old narrative, and it's, we're [00:27:00] just including everybody.
Speaker 3: Well,
Speaker 2: , I say, well, let's flip that and go, well, where were they supposed to be in the first place?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2: And how do we include the adults?
So they can better support the students inside the classroom. That's where the power is. That's 100 percent where the power is. And, for students on IEPs, , I put in place, a three in one model, you know, where you work for three weeks, but on the fourth week, you're working with the staff to help them become better at what they do, , other ways to, do that discreet skill, maybe it's a five, 10, 15 minute discreet, explicit instruction, but then you train, the whole goal is to transfer the skill, they need to be able to apply it across settings, So you support the student, but you're also supporting the teacher and, implementing, , instructional coaching cycles can [00:28:00] really help with that.
Because again, fear is the thing that says, I don't need your help. I'm good on my own, but that vulnerability says, Hey, I don't really know everything. Can you help me with this? whether it's behavior, the academic, whatever it might be. , now, engagement is huge.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I spoke about this in the fall with all people were in states were.
doing cell phone bands. And I said, okay, that's fair, cell phone bands. But what are you going to do with the students? How are you going to make learning engaging? Because where they were on their cell phones before, tuning out, now they don't have anything. It's a little bit of that withdrawal. And how will you keep them engaged so they will persist in wanting to learn novel tasks?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: And nobody really had a strong answer for that. I said, well, then we need to create Those [00:29:00] engaging lessons, but we also need to make sure that kids can see themselves in the learning, make it interesting for them, you know, make it more rigorous or scaffolded that they go, this is really hard. It is hard, but let's do this together.
And then you can show me what, you know, like , that's what kids want.
Speaker: Right. And I see, you know, especially with kids when they're not at the right level, right? Whether we've got our high achievers or students who are struggling, it's so easy for them to lack engagement when that content is not at their correct level.
That's
Speaker 2: right. That's right. You know, to your point, , I'm working with a group of schools and we just finished looking at their, , winter, , map and the many of, there was a slide in the, uh, Above it, you know, the advanced side of things. Yeah. And I said, every student needs to grow at least a year. So the fact that they're sliding, , why?
Let's get to the root of the root and let's figure that out. , that's what ambitious instruction is [00:30:00] all about. Teaching and learning, right? Yeah. You support the adults, but with the high expectation that they will support the student. And not in a passive or limited mind frame, but with you need to learn this and it's my job to make sure you learn this.
Let's go. Let's do this.
Speaker: Yeah. And like you brought up earlier, having those expectations that I know that you can do this, you know, coaching them along the way. , and helping them build up that mindset. That's one thing that's been really interesting as I've gone into life coaching and really coached adults.
, my kids have picked up on a lot of the things that I talk about when it comes to coaching and applied it to their sports. And , it just is like that reminder that, you know, kids need that coaching too, constantly. Of you can do this, like having that growth mindset of, you know, you're smarter than you think, you're more capable than you think, just like we do with adults.
And I think. As the adults, it's so important, especially with kids who are [00:31:00] struggling. We have to be their cheerleaders. We have to be their coaches, encouraging them and coaching them on and, and know, helping them know that they can do this and that you have that high expectation for them.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And to your, you know, I'm going to link onto that.
Um, when I was a teacher and, and, and as I do right now, feedback is super important.
Speaker 3: And,
Speaker 2: you know, I met with each one of my students as a conference.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's very specific. You did a great job on this. This is the gap that you need to address. Let's, you know, what do you think? Let's set a goal for yourself.
And then how am I going to support that? And that's what we need to do with our students, you know, now.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: you need to know because they need to know to your point of, uh, yeah, I can do this. It might be really hard.
Speaker: I can do this. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. Well, Kate, it was great having you on today.
Can you tell everybody where they can find you, where they can find the book? Yes.
Speaker 2: So,
Speaker: um,
Speaker 2: my website [00:32:00] is www. edpolicyconsulting. com. You know, you can go right to my website. , I have a forum you can fill out and I'll get in touch with you right away. My LinkedIn, uh, profile as well. , radically excellent school improvement.
Keeping students at the center of it all came out in July through Corwin, so you can get it through. , I have a link on my website or you can go right to Corwin. , I do offer if people want to have, , a group sale, book study, et cetera, , there'd be discount for that. And then I would be on site to really help people work that through.
So , I'm around in person, hybrid, virtual, whatever everybody needs. But, , I think that our work, yeah. Is important and I think it's going to be very much needed. , now and into the future.
Speaker: Yeah, I think this would be a great book study. .
So if you're a principal and you're looking for something for PD, I know in Ohio, we have professional growth plans. This would be something I think that would be a great topic for [00:33:00] teachers who work with, , Really any struggling student. I think it could be very helpful. , all right, Kate. Well, I will make sure to link everything in the show notes as well.
So if you're listening to this and you're driving, just know that you can go back in the show notes, find her links to her website, her book, , and how you can contact her. And, , yeah, thanks again for being on here. It was great. I really appreciate it. Yeah, you're welcome. .
Speaker 4: Outro Music