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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:02.151)
Welcome everybody to the courageous coach podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Today I am joined by the wonderful Teresa Wilson. Thank you so much for being here, Teresa. I'm so looking forward to this conversation because this is a little bit of reflection and maybe I might even say self-indulgence for me because
Theresa, I've been very lucky to work with Theresa in the past and I went on a retreat, one of her retreats in November last year, which was...
transformational, challenging. It was hard work. It was hard work. But my gosh, when we think about doing the inner work as coaches, when we think about what courage looks like and being vulnerable, it was all of that. It was all of that. So it felt really, really kind of appropriate and important for me to ask Teresa if she would.
come onto the podcast and she kindly agreed because I wanted to share a little bit of what's influenced my own courage as a coach and Theresa's work has been a big part of that. So welcome Theresa. Thank you so much for being here. It's been a pleasure to see you.
Teresa (01:29.262)
I was so delighted, thank you for asking.
Melissa Hague (01:33.171)
And so I'll start, as I always do, by the really large or small question, whichever way you take it, tell us a little bit about you, Theresa.
Teresa (01:47.93)
yeah, I mean for me, I think I've had to practice at making those these responses bigger. You know, one of my, one of the kind of shadow areas that I've worked on and will continue to work on is not taking up space, you know, that nobody wants to hear what you've got to say. And that's so, it baked so deeply in.
And it's that curious thing about working with shadow and bringing things in to consciousness is it's process, it's a journey. So even though I might know that that's a block for me, it doesn't stop it being a challenge. So there's the temptation to say very little and already I've whittled quite a lot, which is fun, you see? But what can I tell you? I mean, we'll start with the obvious, which is the journey to being a coach.
I suppose, which probably the seeds of that were planted about 15 years ago. And I worked in community development for many, many years. And I remember a group of women in particular that I worked with who I loved so much. It was a confidence building program. They were making a film about their local community. We had a big screening in the community hall and they were so excited and were going to make incredible changes in their lives.
just at the point at which the training came to an end and I had to leave them. And I was so devastated to not be able to go on that transformational change journey with them. I just thought, God damn it, you know, who gets to do that? And the answer was a coach. So I trained as a coach and have been on that journey for the last 14, 15 years or so maybe.
but tortured myself for a good chunk of time. And I don't use that word flippantly, actually.
Teresa (03:55.15)
When we work, we work in isolation and yes, we have supervisors and we might have peer coaching and but we still when you're one to one with somebody in that space, your own thoughts can get very noisy and very loud. And, know, if you have an overactive critic, coaching is the perfect environment for it to kind of come barreling in and to beat you up at the end of a session or mid-session.
that lovely, know, any other coach would know what to do right now. You don't know what to do right now. So I had a lot of that a lot of the time. can see the visible.
Melissa Hague (04:33.755)
I'm wincing, I'm wincing because yeah, I feel it. Yeah, totally.
Teresa (04:38.636)
And I always say with shadow work, it's the cringe, the wince. These are the little signals that we know that we're touching into something, right? So, you know, it was hard a lot of the time, really hard and a very unsophisticated, had a very unsophisticated way of knowing how I was doing. Is this a good session or a bad session? You know, and you see saw from one to the other. And I carried on like that until I did a program in Gestalt.
Gestalt introduced me to the paradoxical theory of change, you know, that we change when we become more of who we are. And something in that just blew my mind because it meant I could just sort of develop in the way that a photograph develops. You know, it wasn't about not being this to become something else. was it's a becoming, a developing over time.
And that curiosity took me, got me to shadow, brought me into shadow work. How to integrate more of who we are, that's brought me to shadow work, which really brings me all the way up to right here, right now, talking with you.
Melissa Hague (05:49.287)
Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting that you came to where you are now through Gestalt. I didn't think I knew that. And I always remember when I was first introduced to Gestalt, when I was at Henley, we had a two day module with a guy called Ty Francis, who, well, blew my mind.
frankly, and then, you know, that whole thing about Gishtow, it was so challenging and different in the way that it looked at, well, the world and coaching's part in it, part in that world. It was so different from anything else that I'd learned up to that point about coaching, really. And yeah, I love this idea you say about becoming, becoming more of ourselves.
because I definitely recognize that in myself and in my own coaching journey, really. I know myself better now than I ever did when I wasn't a coach, if that makes sense. It's almost like it's a prerequisite of being a coach that nobody tells you about and you don't necessarily know that you're gonna have to do all of this.
Teresa (07:00.674)
Hmm, yeah.
Melissa Hague (07:14.169)
inner work or self work or whatever we call it, right? We kind of just think, well, we'll go and learn the models and the tools and we'll get better at listening and we'll learn how to ask great questions and that will all be brilliant. Yeah. And then great. And then suddenly there's, you know, as you said, different, different people, different influences coming in like, so I have to learn. I have to become more of me. And so interesting that you said not about becoming something else.
Teresa (07:40.238)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (07:41.489)
And I think that might have been my light bulb moment, light bulb moment. Actually, I'm not sure that's right. It was a wake up moment when we did the shadow work together was like, so this is not me changing into something else. This is me becoming more of me, which is felt quite revelatory, revelatory might be too big a word, but it felt different, very similar.
Teresa (07:58.734)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (08:08.381)
to the impact that Gishtout had on me. was, this feels different to anything else I've understood up until this point.
Teresa (08:19.424)
It's subtle, isn't it? And yet I think it's such an an important distinction because...
Teresa (08:30.604)
because our self-hate or our self-contempt can be so insidious that we don't know it's there. And so, and if that's the foundation that we're doing our development and our growth and our improvement from, I was once at improvement, but you know, we're in the self-help and the change world, but understanding what's foundational.
is absolutely vital. Otherwise, we're always going to be running away from something that we were unconsciously thinking is inadequate or less than. You know, whereas flipping it is saying it's all of this and everything else. It's starting point. It's yes to everything. And that, I mean, you talk about courage, you know, it's one of those. I started working with shadow. I love the theory. Love the theory. Oh.
Melissa Hague (09:08.615)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Teresa (09:24.857)
but then, but if it's yes to everything, you know, some of those edges are...
Melissa Hague (09:30.875)
Yeah, absolutely. And incredibly vulnerable, right, which is why we know it's courageous. Because, well, I know I don't, I don't want to look at the bits of me that I don't like, because I don't like them. I do that? Are you mad? I just like, it just, it feels so counterintuitive. And I think as you
Teresa (09:44.974)
I'm not daft.
Melissa Hague (09:59.111)
beautifully put it there, it's such an ingrained thing, you know, not to show your, I don't know, bad qualities, you know, the ones that were you were told off for or frowned on or weren't allowed, particularly in your formative years, you know, we that that that hiding of those things is so ingrained. And then the accepting turning everything on its head and learning to
actually to love the parts of yourself that you hate. It's like, okay, that's interesting. So Theresa, say a little bit more about shadow or the shadow. I'm conscious that, you know, many of our listeners might be like, well, I don't quite know what that is.
Teresa (10:47.534)
Yeah, of course. it was Jung who gave us the notions of a personal shadow and a collective shadow, but for our purposes as coaches, this is what I'm so interested in, know, that as you say, some coaches can choose not to do the inner work, but my sense is it's transactional, it might be behavioral, you kind of stay above the line.
If you really want to show up relationally, well then you're there, you're in that relationship. And then if you really want to kind of have an understanding of the impact that you're having on the other, you need to understand, you know, what's going on for yourself. You know, your baseline and when you're tipped out of baseline. And when you're tipped out of baseline, sometimes that might be something you're conscious of. I know that.
I don't know, people who do a thing with their mouth that my mother used to do when she would, know, like it might be something that you go, oh God, yeah, I know that always sends me, know, triggers me or whatever. But some of what shifts your baseline might be unconscious. And so this is where the of Jungian personal shadow material comes to bear. So as you say, it's aspects and elements usually from childhood.
Melissa Hague (11:54.034)
Yeah.
Teresa (12:14.882)
that were socialized out of us. know, good girls don't scream and shout, boys don't cry. You know, not like that. It's not being such a dolly daydream. Can we not get out of the house? You know, and there can be, you know, quote unquote, you know, negative qualities and also quote unquote positive qualities. Kind of doesn't matter what matters that is in the family unit or when we're at school.
You know, that environment, it told us not that. And there's often something about the way that we learned not that for ourselves too. It might come with some shaming. You Bernie Brown talks a lot about shame scars. You know, we paint on the walls thinking that we're creating a beautiful masterpiece and then we get shouted at. And so it registers in the body, you know, there's that kind of visceral not that.
They don't like it when I do that. We might be humiliated. We might have been exposed. We might have, you know, the girls at school might have laughed at us for having a side pony. You know, we thought that it looked really nice and it was humiliating. And so we learned not to express ourselves, et cetera, et cetera. So these little qualities, choices, aspects of ourselves from the full range, when we weren't self-conscious, you bit by bit, we learned to become self-conscious and we jettison.
disowned, disallowed qualities and aspects of ourselves in order that we can form a cohesive sense of identity to meet the world with the family, the school, our friendship groups and eventually work and world and, you know, forming a life around this identity, this kind of ego aligned identity.
Melissa Hague (13:57.448)
Yeah.
Teresa (14:06.83)
and it comes knocking because it's always been there. And the older we get in particular, it comes knocking. And it might come knocking in the middle of a coaching session. So you might as well work out what the hell it feels like when it comes knocking.
Melissa Hague (14:08.049)
Mm-hmm
Melissa Hague (14:13.491)
Mm. Mm.
Melissa Hague (14:22.121)
totally, totally. And I think that, I mean, that is doing the inner work, right? Because you're quite right, in the middle of a coaching session, you're triggered by something, right? And us not knowing that...
that's going to happen, or what we might do when it does, is where we can come unstuck, right, which is is really the kind of knowing yourself and knowing yourself well and loving yourself is really important in coaching. So when those moments happen, you can treat yourself with self compassion, right, so important. And I think it's interesting as well, because one of the things that I'm really conscious of as well is that because you as you say, I think it shows up
in all aspects of our lives. And it's interesting, you say as you get older as well, because I, I've often wondered if there's a is there an age or a stage of adult development or some point, right, where this all starts to become, you know, in our kind of like awareness of, I think I might need to do some work here. I've often wondered about that, because I kind of think crikey, I wasn't, you know, if you'd come to me, if I'd, if I'd come to you in November for your retreat, like 20 years ago, I mean,
it just it wouldn't it would not have landed. I'd have probably said in the middle of the first day, well, it's been lovely meeting you, but I need to rush home. I've got more important things to do, right? I'd have found some reason to not be there. So that age thing is super interesting. I think this thing about affecting or impacting, you know, you as a whole human, right, your whole life, of course, I'm also really aware of how it shows up in
Teresa (15:44.974)
Thank you.
Melissa Hague (16:06.787)
in how I run my business and how I approach my business as well. I talk about kind of the stories that we tell ourselves. And those stories, what I've realized since beginning the work with you is that a lot of my stories are coming from my shadow. It's like my unconscious is seeping out into the stories that I make up about myself.
And I became really conscious that I had that kind of, have a, that you must be grateful for everything. That's one of my messages. You know, the horrible knitted jumper that grandma gave you at Christmas, you had to say, grandma, I love it. Thank you so much. It's brilliant. And put it straight on and look like you loved it. It could have been the worst thing in the world, but you have to be grateful for everything.
Teresa (17:00.494)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (17:03.347)
And the worst thing you could possibly be was to be a spoiled brat. Those were the two that really shone out for me through the work that we did. There have been others coming to the fore since, but that whole kind of, mustn't be a spoiled brat. That was not an attractive quality. And it's so interesting because what I realized is I thought, was not surprised that I struggled to say no to work, because I should be grateful for the work, right?
And it's not a struggle. It's not a surprise. Sorry, that I, that I sometimes struggle to say what I need, I need, either in a power dynamic relationship or sometimes with my clients, because that's kind of a bit spoiled. And you should really just, you know, just get back in your, spoil, don't spoil about this. So it's so interesting, isn't it? How I seemingly
I don't know because I'm not, don't want to be a spoiled brat. that feel is so, as we said, ingrained. I don't want to be a spoiled brat. It's a horrible thing to be. I can't bear children who are spoiled. It's awful but it's playing out in a really lived way, right, in my day-to-day work and life. I mean that's fascinating to me.
Teresa (18:27.47)
Mmm, mmm, mmm!
Melissa Hague (18:29.191)
Gosh, we're complex. Gosh, we're complex. Amazing.
Teresa (18:35.926)
I love that example. It's a really rich example. It's so generous of you to share it. And you almost did a kind of, you know, a tensing thing here, but there's something about, for a start, once you see, can't unsee, I'll drop my shoulders. I was really holding the attention of that for you as well.
Melissa Hague (18:56.871)
Yeah.
Teresa (19:01.87)
People often say that to me, and sometimes after the retreats, it's like, oh, Pandora's box, know, like once you pop, can't stop, can you? It's like, oh, here it is. But there's something so, I mean, it is courageous for me. It's deeply, deeply, deeply courageous because there you go, it's spoiled brat. Everything in your system, your body is like ready to toss that away. It's, you know, there's disgust there.
will have been, you know, so part of the messaging that, you know, we can guess that you will have received, you know, how to discuss, you know, that there may have been some of that. So then you meet it in your adult self and here's that disgust then coming forward. So enormous courage to keep breathing, to hold it in eye line, to say, okay, so me too.
So we were saying before, like, yes to everything, and this and that. This one. And the self-compassion is so important here because for me, it softens the edges enough. We don't want things to be too brittle, they'll snap. You know, we might just want to touch. And self-compassion then will help us say, and mean it when we say, I wonder what the gift is for me.
Melissa Hague (20:13.586)
Hmm.
Teresa (20:24.686)
What becomes possible or available for me if I allow for spoilt brat? And even that question, I mean, what a beautiful coaching style question that invites curiosity and imagination. It's not about right wrong answers, it's not about passing some sort of test, but equally it's not about holding on to spoilt brat bad. That kind of really reductive messaging that we would have got as a child. So here we are as the adult.
with compassion, softening this thing so that my senses then over time, over the months, you start to realize that, a little bit of spoiled brat when I'm dot, dot, dot promoting my business or saying yes to this or no to that. Oh, Janne, you did a little bit of that all along, who knew?
Melissa Hague (21:10.674)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (21:14.609)
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the that's the sort of moving away from that very kind of, you know, the, as I said, the bits of myself that I don't like the bits of myself that I would even in some cases say I hate. mean, as you say, that very visceral reaction to spoil brat is I hate spoiled children. So it's a really strong thing for me. But moving that towards
an acceptance. I'm not even going to say I don't love Spoiled Brat yet, but I'm accepting of her, if that makes sense, as part of me, I guess. And I tell you the other thing I think is really interesting is this skill for me in kind of only very tentatively beginning to do some of this work is that the skill for me is knowing
And again, thinking about coaching, like in the moment when, when something is a part of me is triggered and, and that part of me that's been triggered is not helpful in that moment. And that, you know, if you're in the middle of a coaching session with one of my clients, I'm like, I'm not, you know, spoilt brat may or may not, but let's assume main, probably not going to be terribly helpful in this moment. It's something about how.
How do you talk to yourself? How do you talk to that part of yourself in that moment? Because do you talk to it like it's something that you don't like and you hate or do you talk to like, no, hmm, this is interesting.
Teresa (22:49.816)
Never, never, never. I mean that's Richard Schwartz's work, I.F.S. His book is called No Bad Parts.
Melissa Hague (23:00.157)
Yeah.
Teresa (23:04.27)
parentheses, I'm thinking of the work of Phil Stutz and Barry Michaels. Barry Michaels in particular has taken the shadow work stuff and run with it. Now they do talk about a kind of malevolent energy. I'm not sure that I'm particularly on board with that, but again, it's finding the narrative or the version of the story that works for you in particular. But I'm with that, no bad parts. The messaging can be brutal.
Melissa Hague (23:27.633)
Mm.
Teresa (23:34.542)
It can feel like we're being stomped all over. It can feel incredibly unhelpful. Or, you know, it can be that we're judging other people. You know, it can feel like the messaging can be lacking in skill and finesse. But my sense is the intention, if we sit with an open heart and really listen with our little inner ears, we'll find that the intention...
Melissa Hague (23:50.835)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (23:59.878)
Yeah.
Teresa (24:01.942)
is always benevolent rather than malevolent.
Melissa Hague (24:04.243)
And of course, that brings us to curiosity, right? How curious can we be? So in those moments when I notice and I think, hmm, actually, I'm not, I don't think that's helpful right now. But that's curious that you showed up right now. You know, let's chat later. And it you know, there's again, that curiosity to be with and to sit with, I think is is really important. And of course, then your kind of reflective practice afterwards is where that
the growth happens, I think, and the awareness begins to develop and unfold. So, so I'm kind of interested, Theresa, what, how, and this might, it's maybe a very broad question. So we'll start broad, and then we may need to narrow, because I'm really curious. You know, like you said, you went through that kind of initial desire to become a coach, trained to be a coach, then discovered Gestalt.
And that led you into shadow and the work that you do now. So I'm wondering, I quite often like this idea of what's the before and after, know, how has that changed you, I guess, that journey? And yes, as a coach, but maybe as a human as well. what's the shift? Shift probably is way too small a word, but what's it been for you?
Teresa (25:32.641)
I had a...
Teresa (25:37.198)
This is what's popped into my mind, so we'll go with it. A preemptive go at, when I turned 50, I was like, right, my birthday present to myself is a business, proper grown-up business. I'm gonna do all the coaching things and I'm gonna have a free lead magnet and low cost. And I did like all the receive wisdom things and created this website and created this offer. It lasted about three weeks. My heart's not really in it.
And I kind of slowly mothballed it all, tucked it all away. But the reason I mention it is because my lead magnet was a little ebook, six signs that you're hard on yourself and three ways to make the difference, something like that.
Teresa (26:26.986)
at that point.
The thing that I was most skilled at in the world and had been doing all my life was being really hard on myself.
I would say it's been the last couple of years. I said, know, that self-compassion piece, because for me, shadow work and self-compassion have gone hand in hand. I've trained in both on purpose, and the marriage of those two things together makes so much sense to me. And for me personally, living those, because they're daily practices, both of them, so living those has meant...
that there's just capacity. still kind of extraordinary to me, but it's like the default setting is, you know, it's definitely tipped. It's tipped. So more of the time now, I just have more capacity for like genuinely, not just theoretically, and not trying to get my head to override like nervous system cells, heart, soul, everything, just like, there's, it's okay to be me.
Melissa Hague (27:39.579)
Hmm. Yeah, funny that.
Teresa (27:40.536)
turns out. getting there by saying yes to some of the things that are really gnarly, turns out, has been really liberating. By being able to finally say, well, yeah, I am, dot, dot, I am, I am greedy. I've met my persecutor, terrifying, terrifying.
Teresa (28:11.214)
when you I hadn't realised how much of a people pleaser I was. So then to kind of unleash. And that's why my persecutor was huge because I hadn't got any air because I'd spent my life not creating any ripples or ruffles anywhere ever.
you know, so then I was on the clock, there was a backlog. So it's extraordinary, isn't it, that, you know, by meeting something like that, that should sound awful, I've never been more at peace. So that would be, and it's the beginning of the beginning, you know.
Melissa Hague (28:48.691)
All right, it makes it so interesting you say that, as you said that last bit, it's like my chest filled with air. You know, when you take, I didn't take a really lovely deep breath, but you know, when you take a lovely deep breath and you just feel that expansion, that's what I just felt, that just expansion. Yeah, who knew? We just had to be ourselves, right? And who knew that that isn't easy?
Teresa (29:14.412)
Good.
Melissa Hague (29:14.823)
That's the other thing as well, isn't it? You know, when I've just been reminded, like, you know, the best advice you get when you go for an interview, just be yourself. All right, then it's like, it like it's the easiest thing in the world. And it's, it can be really hard for lots of different reasons. For sure. And I, I smiled inwardly when you talk about your lead magnet, because I was thinking the other thing that I know with my coaching work,
Teresa (29:22.296)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (29:43.387)
and the work I do with coaches is that it came from the work I needed to do for myself. And therefore the relationship I have with the work I do around courage building is very different from any other work I've ever done actually in my whole career, I think, because it's the work I needed to do.
And then I want to help other people do that work, right? And that's such a gift. Such a gift.
Teresa (30:18.61)
I love that, and picking up what you were saying about, know, just be yourself. What I hear in that difference, isn't it? There's all sorts of things we could do as a coach. And there was a little bit of that, well, I could do this, or maybe I could do that. But it's really different when it's like, it's more of a calling, isn't it? Well, there's that, it's this. Which, you know, for me, it's like my being.
Melissa Hague (30:24.381)
Hmm.
Teresa (30:47.907)
It's not what I could do. It's like, how am I going to be? And my sense is it's been the same for you. And that's why when people meet you in this work, it feels so different.
Melissa Hague (30:59.187)
Yeah. Yes, and I think it's also reminded me as well, think, and now I'm thinking, I'm not sure I've made that connection between witnessing your work being part of your work, and then and then taking because one of the things like I remember from the retreat, which was really profound, was how in the learning you were with us. Not a kind of
team, maybe you were as an element of being a teacher, but I mean that in a more Eastern way than a Western way. But but that kind of you were in the learning with us. And I, I don't know whether that's a coach thing or a human thing. But I think that's so important when you're doing the inner work, the self development, what you that working with people who are in it as well.
Because I think that enables that self compassion practice that you talking about because there's there's nothing more.
reducing than the person who's sort of sat at the front of the room and who appears to have it all sorted, teaching you something. Because that immediately well for me anyway, that immediately creates the less than the I mean adequate in comparison. So there's something so lovely about being in the learning with your learners with the people supporting. Yeah.
Teresa (32:26.446)
I don't got nothing sorted. And just swimming in the... And I love that, you know? And then, and every time I'm on retreat, it's like, well, I've never been here in this configurations of humans. So this, there's a depth and richness and mystery and beauty to this.
Melissa Hague (32:36.573)
Absolutely.
Melissa Hague (32:54.311)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Teresa (32:57.196)
Yeah, and humility, you know, it's interesting, that's another of those words, isn't it, that has to sit really closely with courage. And I think for me, humility is...
Teresa (33:13.495)
It's a really necessary part of the toolkit in a sense.
Teresa (33:25.011)
maybe not quite the right way to describe it but you know there are times it's it's
Humility is that not clinging, isn't it? We have to meet this work with open hands, I think, and we can so cling and humility is that, well, and it is, and so it is. I think that's what humility would say, and so it is. Well, I don't like it, but it can't be, and so it is, and so it is, yeah.
Melissa Hague (33:45.971)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, because I think the humility for me in this kind of work is is really around kind of, you know, I, I'm doing the work too. And kind of moving away from my expert
Teresa (34:03.182)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (34:03.699)
part which I love and smooth and make pretty and oh yeah, I've just, I've fussed on that expert part of me all of my career, probably much of my school education as well. So moving less polishing of the expert part. I think that's the humility. I'm not the expert. I'm leaning in and I'm doing the work, but I'm not the expert, right?
And, but I think the thing with humility as well, and we talk about this in in courage building or in terms of developing your grounded confidence is around the confusion we sometimes have between humility and fake modesty. She's all well, no, no, no, not me, really. No, no, it wasn't really me. It was it was I didn't, I didn't do that much, you know, that kind of fake modesty, which we sometimes make the association or that's being humble, that showing humility, it's like
It's not humility is standing in your own space and holding your ground, you know, and saying, this is the work I'm doing. This is this is what I'm good at. This is the work I've still got to do. Right. Such an interesting word. I kind of said couple of things I'm still fascinated by because I wanted to come back to the self compassion piece because self compassion is a huge part of courage building.
developing a self compassion practice. You know, if we are going to be brave, if we're going to choose to step into the arena, we not only need compassion and empathy, but we also need self compassion, the ability to be kind to ourselves. And so I think, like you, I see self compassion and courage and as you said, shadow and courage, the shadow and self compassion that you know, they are side by side hand in hand.
And I love the fact that you called them a practice, because that's the other thing with self compassion. It's Kristin Neff always says it's a daily practice. This is not, you know, a skill set that you have or don't have. It's a daily practice. And so how what, what does your self compassion practice look like?
Teresa (36:28.78)
Luckily...
Teresa (36:34.094)
It can be as simple, it's often as simple as that. No kit, no effort, no time, actually. You know, this has come, the hand on the heart chakra has come to be such a potent shortcut, you know, and really, and this can be, you know, in between coaching sessions, it can be in a coaching session, it can be, you know, it's as and when needed, isn't it? So this...
And, you know, there's different ways then of touch, but self-compassion touch has been a really kind of powerful one for me because of how fast and immediate and available it is. And then in terms of a daily practice, so I have a compassionate place. That was one of the guided exercise that we went through.
Melissa Hague (37:15.57)
Hmm.
Teresa (37:30.188)
Because with shadow work, can be a lot of parts work, know, might be little parts that needs some attention. And so I'll always end the day with a little check in in my compassionate place. My crone is always there. She's my kind of self-compassion guide, if you like. I love my crone. Being there, done it all, seen it all, don't give a toss, you know, like I love that energy is like so it's me and you know, by the fire and then
Melissa Hague (37:43.175)
Right.
Melissa Hague (37:57.089)
Okay.
Teresa (37:59.416)
whoever else, any other parts that I'm working with or anything, any other parts that need attention, have a little check-in. So, and there might be other things as needed, but as a practice, you know, there's this, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (38:13.459)
those anchors. Yeah, yeah. I love the soothing touch. Right. I discovered on a self compassion program actually that because I always found that kind of hand on heart. Yeah, get it in lots of different types of practices. Don't you just put your hand with both your hands on your heart. And I was always kind of like, don't don't really connect with that. I'm not
I'm just doing it because you're telling me to, which I think is so often what we do, isn't it? I'm being told to do it. It mustn't be, you know, it be naughty, mustn't break the rules. So I'll do what I'm told. And, and I discovered that my, and as you say, it can be anywhere on your body, legs, face, heart, wherever, right? But actually, the soothing element for me is the warmth of my hands.
And it's warmth that is my soothing touch. doesn't matter where I put my hands, as long as my hands are warm. And if they're not warm, I just have to move them a little bit and create a bit of friction and suddenly they're warm. I'm like, so even those little, when you practice it daily, you can start to pick up on those really little nuances rather than, yeah, someone told me to put my hands on my heart, right? Which is like, but what does that feel like for you? You know, what does that create for you?
Teresa (39:33.326)
Yeah.
And that's the thing, isn't it? It's that I think the thing that's really hard in all of this, everything that we've been talking about today, know, shadow work, even a self-compassion practice, any of it, is creating enough stillness to listen. And that's the bit that a lot, you and I'm so guilty of it because, you know, I've lived most of my life, you know, shoulders up. I need any of this.
Melissa Hague (40:00.54)
Yes, yeah.
Teresa (40:03.65)
malarkey down here. No thanks. So stillness.
you know, if we don't have the stillness then we can't listen and if we can't listen then we're going to miss those real kind of vital signals and that's what a beautiful detail. It's the warmth. What a beautiful, beautiful, that's when it becomes so alive. You've listened. You've listened. There's some genuine contact. But there's some contact for that little bit of wisdom to come whispering through. Oh, I like it when...
Melissa Hague (40:38.387)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's the second thing I was, as we've talked, I was thinking about is how connected you are to below the neck, to your body, and also how you notice, and this is a skill, right, to notice the body of others as well. Like earlier on when my shoulder, was all tense and my shoulders had come up and
you know, being able to pick up on those signs in ourselves and also in others is a critical part of coaching for me. And, and I'm not sure again, I think through the courage work, because we talk a lot about embodiment and connection to self. When we do the courage building work, but embodiment was a whole other discovery for me. I was like, okay. Because I literally, as you said, I spend
all of my time in my head. And still I do I have a somatic supervisor for this reason, because I'm so I just well, when I started with I was so desperate to connect with my body, I was like, so disconnected. And as I've become more connected, even now, I still do the right well, I'm connected, how can I logically now explain what's happening in my body? How can I give it
words and logic and cognitive thinking, right? So there's even that, I love, this stillness thing, this ability to just notice and be still is, is so important. And so I feel like that sense of what's happening in your body for you, and I'm wondering, therefore, if this is something, you know, we can all kind of be aware of is that, that kind of
I think earlier on when I grimaced and you said all that grimaces sometimes, I wonder if there's a part of the shadow. So again, tuning into your body, I'm guessing from your perspective, and I'd certainly agree with it is, is again, a really important part of starting to tap into that unconscious shadow work. Is that fair?
Teresa (42:44.238)
Yeah, yeah and I think so for me as a kind of head first and second and third and fourth and... Hello. What do you mean by bias? So parts work has actually been a really useful kind of segue if you like. I think going straight to somatic stuff would just be like...
Melissa Hague (42:55.027)
Absolutely.
Teresa (43:13.678)
too bewildering for me. just, I do not speak that language. I'm never gonna speak that language. Then that can feel shaming because that's another thing I can't get right. And then we're off on that merry-go-round again of how rubbish we are and blah, So working with parts, like, almost like to tune into, so when it feels like this, I wonder what part is activated. and it feels really gross.
or really anxious, or if I feel quite sick, or if I feel quite empty. I wonder what part has got activated and I wonder what story then. And then I've got something. So head's got something to make meaning around, but it's making meaning around the signals in the body. We know how to be in relationship, right? So then we'd be in relationship with parts. So then I can start to disidentify and put them out there.
And then that leaves a little more space. And then over time, it means that there's more space, more of the time and that sense of baseline shifts. Because most of the time, everything I felt, critic would just find a way to come in and tell me that it was my fault. There was no space, there was no room. So yeah, parts for me has just been really helpful in bit by bit by bit. She said that lovely kind of full chest thing.
Melissa Hague (44:39.826)
Yeah.
Teresa (44:41.44)
I can, so then when it comes to the shadow work, absolutely that attunement then, you need space to resonate so that you can then kind of, a wince, a cringe, turning away from, a contraction, that then just becomes data, helpful data that we can get curious about.
Melissa Hague (45:03.717)
Yeah. And we're back to curiosity, right? It's just so, I mean, I love curiosity, but I also know, I mean, I love it. I'm a very curious person, but not about everything. I'm not, know, there are certain things I'm very curious about and other things that I'm not the slightest bit curious about, right? But I am, I love curiosity. It's such a...
for me it has such a childlike quality to it which I enjoy. But I think that there's something about curiosity, it comes up in so much because I know it's a very vulnerable choice choosing to be curious is a very vulnerable choice because we have to admit to not knowing essentially and you know it's a big part of courage work for sure but I think it's a it's it's more than that because curiosity is for me what creates the space.
Can I be curious enough about this thing to just create some space around it? Almost like so I can put it out in front of me and look at it and might walk around it and have a little look at it from the other side. And can I hold it out in front of myself almost, create that space and be curious about it. And that's even harder when the thing that you're holding is like a hot potato.
because I don't really like it and what or it feels shaming as you say, right. So it's like a hot potato. I'm like, not only is it burning my hands, you now want me to look at it and walk around in when actually what I want to do is just drop it. So there's such, such courage in doing that. And that brings us right back to the self compassion because in those moments, I'll keep using the hot potato metaphor, whether it came from but anyway, as I'm holding that hot potato, and I'm thinking I just want to drop this and not not look at it. Thank you, because it's
hurting my hands and it's not very nice. I don't really like potatoes anyway. I'm kind of, I'm also able to look at it and and and be able to say to myself, this is really hard. This is really hard to look at this. And to be curious about it. This is hard. And that's okay. You know, and that is self compassionate, because I think quite often we think about self compassion is, well, drop the potato. The self compassionate thing to do. It's like
Teresa (47:02.549)
You
Teresa (47:10.862)
mmm
Melissa Hague (47:28.209)
No, self compassion is about saying, this is tough. And it's okay. You know, it's okay to struggle. What do you need right now? You know, so I'm like, well, I'd like someone to come along with a, I'm gonna really run with the metaphor, I need someone to come along with a, you know, basin full of cold water and tip it over the hot potato piece. Great. Okay. So who's that person then? Right. So it's accepting that this is hard, and this is a struggle, and that's okay. This is not about fixing.
Teresa (47:58.742)
Yeah, it's lovely, it? Calling another traditional resource. It's almost like that supports us to be in relationship with ourselves in a more than way so that you can stay for longer. It's all that resource that comes through compassion. That it isn't reactive or rigid or tossed. So much of our life, it's toss it, don't like it, toss it. Pretend it's not there.
Melissa Hague (48:23.931)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Chuck it away.
Teresa (48:27.272)
But we have to that capacity from somewhere and self-compassion is that capacity builder, isn't it?
Melissa Hague (48:32.027)
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. So I'm just I'm keeping an eye on time because, you know, I said to Teresa when we started this session, I'm going to keep an eye on time as I always do. But I know I could talk to Teresa for hours on end. It's such a privilege to to to I miss this complete self indulgence, because it's a complete privilege just to be able to hold you for, you know, for all of this time and to talk to you about this.
But I'm kind of I'm wondering now about this kind of bringing this kind of the work that you do, the shadow work, the self compassion work, this part stuff, all those things you've talked about, and kind of bringing that to courageous coaching. Where's the what does courageous coaching look like for you, I guess, based on all of that stuff that you that you have and that you hold that's beautiful.
Teresa (49:31.714)
I think.
it's pulling on one of the threads that's been with us throughout this conversation really, it is that, you know, having the courage to be.
Teresa (49:45.526)
and knowing that that is no small thing.
Teresa (49:53.922)
because inevitably then that will mean, you know, we have to give up on our experts, we have to give up on our getting it right, you know, strokes, feeling good, we have to give up on all of that, to sit in that humility of I don't know, I don't know how this is gonna go, I don't know if I will serve, I don't know if I'm the right fit, I don't, you know.
Teresa (50:23.5)
and I've no idea where this word has come from and it's not the right word but I'm gonna speak it anyway because it's sort of just dropped into my mind. There's a luminosity that is the, it's almost like the payback, you know. don't think we can have the intent, it's one of those, isn't it? If we have the intention of wanting it to be, then we lose all of the magic. But there is a beautiful magic in that real humility and grace and of saying, well.
here I am, with my intention of showing up human to human, no shields, no protections, all my limits. But then there's often, that's what I found, know, like...
There's such a beauty to, you my work continues to change. sometimes wonder, eventually I think, will I stop calling myself a coach? Because tonally there's, you know, when you are just sitting human to human.
And I know there's lots of other coaches sitting with that curiosity at the moment. There's something in the field that's really exciting, know, two souls sitting, wondering what it is to be a human.
Melissa Hague (51:39.251)
Yeah, 100%. And I think that that for me, it's why I love coaching and why I guess coaching has become my thing. You know, I am a coach, it's not something I do. And I say that because ultimately for me, coaching is about two human beings in connection with each other. And that's...
in itself, you know, yes, there are lots of situations where we're two human beings in connection with each other. But if you can bring humanity and skill, and curiosity, and compassion, all those things we've talked about, you can bring all of those things into that human to human connection. That's mind blowing. That's mind blowing where that could could go what that could be. And so for me, it's always the potential.
in the coaching relationship that I find exhilarating and exciting. And maybe that's where the magic is, right? For sure. 100%. And I think there's something else, because you're right, this idea of, you know, who am I, who do I want to be? Who am I becoming as a coach is a question that I ask often in supervision and other contexts, right? Who are you becoming?
not which tool are you going to add or you know, which book are you going to read next? But who are you becoming as a coach? Because I don't want I want to kind of close by the by our conversation by saying what but this is really hard work. And it's not that you know, the work on ourselves. It's really hard work. And it isn't a it isn't a five minute fix.
you know, this is a life I for me, certainly a lifelong discovery process of discovery and development that that becoming it isn't well, I wasn't yesterday and today I am right. It's that long, really long process. And I think that as coaches, when I when I when I meet people for the first time who are wanting to become coaches, they're not there yet. I always feel that I want to share that I want to say, you know, this is not
Melissa Hague (54:03.453)
just about, you know, grow and questions and this thing. Yes, you need all of that. But I need you also to realize that this is this is going to be a lifelong journey of development for you. And you don't have to be ready right now, but you just need to know that that's what's coming, right? Because it isn't just a course and then you're done.
Teresa (54:27.79)
I had a therapist for many years and one of his many catchphrases was, check your willingness, Theresa, check your willingness. And I think it's that, am I willing? Am I willing? Yeah.
Melissa Hague (54:38.759)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that makes me think of, you know, ready, willing and able. I don't know where that but that you know, that phrase ready, willing and able and I'm thinking actually, in this context, it's not about being ready. It's not about being able. But the willingness is Yeah, yeah, yeah, the willingness to do the work. Well, Teresa, it has been an absolute pleasure. It's just been some time with you talking about this. I feel very
Teresa (55:01.804)
Yeah.
Teresa (55:07.918)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (55:12.433)
very indulgent because I've just, you know, had well, 55 minutes, an hour of your time, just you and I having a lovely conversation. And I find this, the work that you do fascinating, but also so interconnected with this idea of courage. And you've played a huge part in my journey of becoming. I'm very grateful for that and I appreciate you coming along today.
Teresa (55:38.674)
thank you. It's just been a blast to hang out with you. I could obviously talk about this for hours too. And I just, you know, I really appreciate your generosity in all that you've shared to kind of, you know, help fuel our conversation along. It's a real gift. So thank you for that too.
Melissa Hague (55:53.619)
Thank you, Theresa. Take care.