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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising our kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and we are welcoming back Doctor. Philip Mamalakis, author of the classic Orthodox parenting book Parenting Toward the Kingdom. Doctor Mamalakis teaches pastoral care at Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, and he's been a longtime collaborator with us over here at Faith Tree. And more importantly, he's the father of seven children, and now he's a grandfather of two.
Michelle Moujaes:Today, we're going to explore how do we respond to the sacred in the midst of the mess. When the house is a disaster and the kids are misbehaving and we're just feeling frustrated and angry, what do we do? Well, that's what we're gonna chat about today. Thanks for joining us again, Philip.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Thanks, Michelle. It's great to be back.
Michelle Moujaes:It's good to have you back. So let's talk about it. Because I know as parents, we can get really caught up in all of the I don't wanna say minutiae because it's a real thing when it's happening. But when our kids are all over the place or they're misbehaving or things aren't going well and, again, it doesn't matter what age. For little ones, the misbehavior looks different.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:For older ones, it looks different. But what do we do to keep ourselves focused on the sacredness of parenting in the midst of all that chaos?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's a great question because, you know, here we wanna learn how to parent. Here, we we wanna we want our faith to guide us. Like, we're we're believing Christians. Yes. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then you look at the house of the disaster. It doesn't look very beautiful or sacred. Our kids are just you know, it feels out of control. And then oftentimes, we can have really powerful negative feelings Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:So many.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Anger. And then and then we we're ashamed. We're kind of ashamed of the whole thing. And so if we believe that to be a Christian is to is to look a certain way and live a certain way, it it it gets doubly overwhelming. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the beauty of the Orthodox Church is that we believe, we recognize that Christ, the king of the universe, chose when he was born not to be born in a beautiful palace
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Not to be That's helpful. Surrounded by white marble, you know, beautiful soldiers.
Michelle Moujaes:I mean Instagram worthy.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You know? Yeah. He was not born into an Instagram worthy space. And remember, God could have done that. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:He deliberately chose to be born in a stable, in a dirty, smelly stable. And that's, like, that's the nature of his love that he says, I wanna be with you. I am with you in the mess. Yeah. To be a Christian is not to have a clean house, well behaved kids, and really happy feelings.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To be a Christian is in the middle of the mess. We recognize that Christ loves us, and he's present. So the first thing, just that thought
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Can help change everything.
Michelle Moujaes:Completely countercultural, by the way. Completely countercultural. So give me a practical takeaway for our audience and for me. Like, how do you get away from that desire to have the Instagram worthy white marble, all the things.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the beautiful thing is how do we learn to trust God? I think that parenting is so beautiful and sacred because it exposes our hearts. Mhmm. You know, kids will expose our controlling nature.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Kids will expose our tendency to fear.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the question is, what do we do when we're we're exposed? Parents will tell me, my kids just push my buttons.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And they're they're half right. Like, they're not intentionally doing that, but it's by design. Because how else are we gonna unwire these buttons? It's one of the powerful images that is in the scriptures. When Christ approached the the paralytic, the guy laying by the the the the seed, the private pool
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And he said, I have no one to lift me into the water. He asked him, do you wanna be healed? What what sounds like what a crazy question. Do you wanna be healed? Who would wanna be healed?
Michelle Moujaes:Of course I do.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Of course I do. In those moments, when we feel overwhelmed or hopeless and everything looks terrible, it exposes our pride. It exposes ourselves like Christ joins us and asks us, do you wanna be free? Do you wanna be free of these thoughts? Do you wanna be healed?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And if we can answer Christ, yes. I wanna be healed of my need to have a clean house. I wanna be healed of my concern about what other people think. I want to be healed of my perfectionism. If we say yes, we learn how to take a deep breath and thank God for this moment, recognizing this is not a problem.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is not a shameful negative thing, but this is the state of my house, and Christ is present. We wanna do whatever we can to call that to mind. So literally, in the moment when we feel that, we take a deep breath, and we can say a prayer. We can even say thank you. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Not because we like it, but because we know I wanna be healed. And then once we're in that state, we can recognize that actually the only thing our kids need our kids actually don't need a clean house. They do need a peaceful mother. Like, it the Can
Michelle Moujaes:they have both?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm not entirely sure they can have both. Okay. Do you know why?
Michelle Moujaes:Tell me.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because God loves us. Because God knows if our peace is dependent on a clean house, that's not divine peace, and we're not free. And because God wants us to be free, he allows for situations where we have to choose inevitably clean house or peace. Right? Wow.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's by design.
Michelle Moujaes:That's horrible in some ways. Like, the the inner cleaner
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:to be free.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That inner cleaner in me is not
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so once we recognize the sacred in the mess or more accurately Christ in our midst. We really we want God change my thinking about what good and bad is. Because you know what happens when it's a mess? Then we react, and now our kids are in a messy home and a mom is out of control or a dad is out of control. Like, it's sort of like when we when a dad freaks out, when a kid makes a mistake, they've already made a mistake.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Now they've got an out of control dad.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, we have a god who invites us. He says be you know, in the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome. Right? That fear I'm here to cast out fear.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And and I really think he means in the in the church of the home because it's really hard for parents to think church of the home. This looks nothing like a church.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. It looks nothing like a
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:church. It looks nothing like a church building. Let's just be clear.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It looks a lot like a church. That is the people of God in daily life. But remember, people looked at Jesus and said, this can't be the Messiah.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:People look at a mess and say, it's impossible for God to be present. And that's just our own blindness. So now imagine, you may not believe me, Michelle, and that's fine. But let's imagine
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. I'm imagining.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That I say, yes. Christ is present. I'm angry and resentful for my kids. They're not listening, and this house is a mess. But I believe what Guy said, and he's here.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So I take a deep breath. And now my instinct is to take a prayer, and now I'm gonna just respond to my kids. I'm just gonna respond. Alright? They're a mess.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm gonna go up and say, guys, what are you doing? We just need to move out. And so we we set a limit. We say, alright. Peacefully, but strict.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's no running in the house. You need to take off those clothes and hop in the shower. And they're not gonna listen. That's okay. I'm gonna if you don't do it, I'm gonna escort you.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then you peacefully escort them. K. Once you're at peace, you can take care of business. What they will learn in that moment is the nature of God's love. Because they can feel the craziness, but our kids are wired to be in tune with our hearts.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And then we can't really fix much of our external circumstance. But imagine now if we are feeling that anger and resentment, but we bring peace. And so recognizing Christ allows us to get freed up, and then we're able to, in in in love and in peace, just respond to our kids.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that what that communicates, at the end of the day, they will have tasted peace in the midst of that.
Michelle Moujaes:In the midst of that. So what I'm hearing is it's not necessarily that we can't strive to have a cleaner, orderly home or peace, you know, in the things around
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:us. Externally.
Michelle Moujaes:It's not the priority.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's not first thing.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's good to strive for that. It's important for our kids to know that mom does not like a messy house. That's a good thing. What's not good is for them to fear mom freaks out when the house is messy.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's a difference.
Michelle Moujaes:That's a good differentiation. I like that. It's really it's a matter of order.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's a and that see how that teaches a priority? Yeah. I want our kids to know there's only one time mom freaks out, and it's when, what, we really hurt someone or we sin against God. Not when we spill milk or forget our laundry. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But she always gets on us for the laundry. She's, like, ruthless, but she's never mad.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:She's relentless, but she's never freaking out.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the goal of parenting is we want to teach them. We keep a house clean. But remember, in that process, what we're really teaching them is who they are, how valued they are, how loved they are, and how much we respect them.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So I like that. Now now I'm on board. So long as we know that they can have a clean house. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Maybe I'm a clean freak. But I I also wonder how this applies to, like, things like misbehavior. Right? Is it the same?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It is the same because we go from trying to reach a goal, like a clean house or a well behaving kid. We move from that to, I'm gonna walk with you. Okay. And I'm gonna be strict. It is never okay to hit.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's never okay to swear. And I'm gonna stay on you, but I'm not gonna freak out when it doesn't when you don't reach a level that I'm okay with.
Michelle Moujaes:I feel like you have to be such an adult to be in Well, this
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think you need to be a saint.
Michelle Moujaes:Maybe that's it. Yeah. Fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so in the Orthodox way, we don't have to be a saint. We have to aim for that.
Michelle Moujaes:Aim for it. Pursue that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because do we wanna be healed? So, really, the only thing worse than a messy house misbehaving kids and resentment is now if I feel like, oh, great. Now I have to be a saint.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Oh, that's Awesome.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That, like, heaps stuff on us.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How is that? The yoke of Christ. The Christ says, take my yoke upon you. It's light.
Michelle Moujaes:It's light.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This doesn't feel very light. That's a misinterpretation. That's, again, perfectionism. The church is not here to get us to behave. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The church helps walk with us so that in the chaos, we know what else to do. What do we do when we're feeling resentful? What do we do when we're feeling angry? And this is where self care is so important.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Tell me about that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because we there's no way we can possibly respond the way we supposed should all the time, and that's not the goal. The goal is to recognize that we have limits. We have limits to our strength. We have limits to our patience. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? We have limits just like we have limits to our money and limits to our time. These limits are not problems. You know? These are features of being a human being.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To be a Christian is not to imagine that because I believe in Jesus, I'm now a superhero, and I have no limits. Right. To be a Christian is to recognize when I reach the end of my limit, I know what it means to turn to Christ. So when I'm feeling so frustrated, I'm about to snap. Self care is I need to take a time out.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I need to figure out how to step back from that edge. It can mean, usually, we learn these trial and error, but we can learn to figure out some quiet time in the day before everyone wakes up, when a spouse comes home, when we come home, in the car ride home from work. We we learn that I need some sort of downtime for myself. Mhmm. Working with other adults and your support network to create adult relationships where I have time for myself.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:An exercise routine of some sort. Mhmm. A prayer routine of some sort. I recommend nonnegotiable Sunday mornings. We go to church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That is self care. Mhmm. Right? It's messy. We're distracted by the kids, but it's a time that actually feeds our soul.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. So each person has to figure out what do I need for myself? Because each of the circumstances are different, whether you're single parent, whether you're in a in a marriage, whether you're in a step parent situation. The struggle to take care of myself is a really important struggle to work on.
Michelle Moujaes:There are two things that I find really helpful when I'm talking with parents, as far as that kind of self care. The first one is intentional margin. We had a conversation with a sociologist named Felicia Wu Song, and she talks about this lie that we've all bought into, which is that we must be productive and maximize every minute of every hour of every day. And I think if we could get really intentional about the margin that we create, that in and of itself is extraordinary in our own self care and taking a minute to just recalibrate.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Absolutely. And I noticed we often we learn this trial and error.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're so exhausted. We just stop doing anything. And there's something about learning from our mistakes, and we can learn. You know what? I need I can't go with no break at all.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we learn to I just need a fifteen minute break. Mhmm. And the kids need to wait. Everyone needs to learn how to respect my limits. And the things we do in our break are intentionally things that nurture our souls.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Mhmm. Right? Because getting online, checking out doesn't nurture our souls as much as things like walking or reading or being with friends or prayer or going to church or being involved in some meaningful something outside the home. And it's really hard. Sometimes I really struggle to feel guilty.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, how can I leave my kids? Aren't I supposed to be a super parent? And to talk to someone about that. Mhmm. Because I wanna heal because we're not supposed to be super parents.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Kids actually don't do well Mhmm. With super parents. They do well learning that my mom is a human being, and she has limits.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. That's right. And I think kids do well when they're not with us all day every day. Exactly. You know?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Exactly. How can we nurture discernment if they're never in a space where we are watching them in there?
Michelle Moujaes:And managing.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And what I've noticed is that life kind of naturally provides it. Like, when we're super busy, we didn't get a chance to connect. Right? And so when kids will complain, where were you? I needed you.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What happened? It's great. Instead of saying, well, that shouldn't have happened, you can tell them, well, what was it like? Tell me what it's like to be without me. Like, our goal is to walk with them.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that example of tell me what that was like. Like, we all made it. Everyone's okay. How can and I would dare say moms especially, how do we remove that kind of guilt and shame of I mean, because I don't know a mother and certainly not a mother in in my Orthodox sphere who doesn't feel enormous guilt or shame around this. I'm not enough.
Michelle Moujaes:I've gotta be, you know, taking care of parents, taking care of work, taking care of a spouse. I mean, taking care of the kids.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Do needs me. I'm failing everyone. Everyone wants more of me.
Michelle Moujaes:100%. Are you in my mind, doctor Mamalakis? Alright. How how do you actually go closer to a healthy understanding of what's appropriate, reasonable, or you just kinda know that the struggle and not being perfect is part of it? Like, what does that look like?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think it looks like finding spaces to share that with people.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because you can't it's hard to do something with your feelings. If you're feeling guilty, you can't just wish that stuff away. Right. And the church doesn't say suck it up and follow Christ.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The church the church says, offer it up and follow Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So at the heart of it is this is part of my healing is I'm gonna tell someone I feel so guilty. I feel like a failure. The right people, a women's group, talking with my priest, my spouse, people around us who can hear us, hear our struggle, and from there, kind of give us some perspective and help us navigate. Because we need to first share our pain Right. Before someone says, it is hard.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yes. And then with that love, we can reevaluate. Maybe I need to readjust all the things I'm doing.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Maybe I bought into this, and I need to maybe it's on me, but in not in a critical way, in in a I wanna be well kind of way. Like, yeah, I wanna get better just being peaceful. But it's really hard because it's related to how messy the house is.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because if we can't let the house drop a little bit, it's really hard to have a balanced life because in the normal cycle of things, you can't always get to cleaning the house, and nobody dies. Yeah. It's like some of these balls have to drop
Michelle Moujaes:at I when when Walid and I first got married, we were on our honeymoon, and my husband does not swim. He's not a swimmer, and he didn't wanna go down to the to the water. And I was like, come on. We'll just go put our feet in. So we go, and I'm a new bride.
Michelle Moujaes:I didn't know that he was really not So into the he was holding my hand. And at one point, he didn't realize it, but he had actually pulled me in. I'm like running on the the bottom of the ocean. And I looked at him, and he was trying to take on the whole ocean to make sure everyone stayed okay and everyone was alive and didn't drown. And I remember telling him, know, not too many years ago, I feel like I'm you on the side of the ocean where I'm just trying to keep everything afloat and perfect.
Michelle Moujaes:And he was like, but you don't have to do that. I'm like, of course, you have to do that. People are coming for Christmas or whatever the thing was. And I think it's a really interesting and probably self imposed pressure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It is self imposed
Michelle Moujaes:pressure. Think that's probably true. So what
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:did it wants to expose that. Yeah. Because we can't heal from what we can't see because the church of yours was
Michelle Moujaes:about that. We can't heal what we can't see.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. Like, in order to confess something, we have to be able to recognize it. Because we we offer when we realize, I am anxious or I am angry or I'm want I'm a perfectionist or I'm obsessive about this. Mhmm. We offer it up as a as in repentance.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm stuck in this bad habit. I'm stuck in this bad thinking. Literally offering it up. We put it at the foot of the cross. We share it with a spiritual father or in a group as I am stuck.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's a confession.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And when we do that, and we're not defending ourselves, we're saying I'm really stuck with this. In the right with the right people, they then can love us. Not say, yeah. You're right. You should quit doing it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, if I could quit doing it, I I would.
Michelle Moujaes:Probably would have. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But the first step is to see it, and then we could say, oh, man. I am really I like
Michelle Moujaes:This is a thing.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is a thing. Yeah. And it does it it takes a busy home. It takes company unexpected, more than you thought. At the same time a child gets sick and the washing machine is out, suddenly, you have to prioritize.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:what I tell parents, prioritize peace in the midst of chaos.
Michelle Moujaes:Peace in the midst of chaos.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's Christ do love that. Yeah. Usually, when we think of peace, we think, alright. The house is clean. Kids are asleep or eating.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Everything's just now I have peace. That's not Christ peace. Christ peace is the washing machine is out. There is no dinner. The kids are all upset.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I'm gonna say, glory to god. This is gonna be hard. Alright, guys. What's our next step?
Michelle Moujaes:That's good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's Christ's peace.
Michelle Moujaes:That's great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That makes us free. Do we want that?
Michelle Moujaes:Do we
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:want and the only way to get that is in the mess. Messy home, messy kids, messy internal life. We take a deep breath and say a prayer and recognize Christ is here. And if we Christ is here, isn't that the only thing that's important?
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. I like it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so suddenly, the family life becomes like this ascent to the kingdom of God. Can you imagine becoming a saint through a broken washing machine, kids that need a bath that are tracking, you know, mud
Michelle Moujaes:All over.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:All over. And and this is our path to draw closer to God.
Michelle Moujaes:Two questions come to mind then. Number one, when you're in the middle of that and you're looking for that joy and that peace of becoming more like Christ
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, what if you're not feeling it?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Good job. You are not gonna feel it.
Michelle Moujaes:No. You don't feel that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You don't. K. It's a little bit like the three youth in the fire. King Nebuchadnezzar. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Christ. Peace in the fire is a divine gift.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So that when we feel anxious, I it's like courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is how we respond in the face of fear. Christ's peace is taking a deep breath and just focusing on our children and saying, thank god, while our anxiety is up and just walking in truth. It's Peter walking on water.
Michelle Moujaes:Doing the things that we know we're called to do.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Once we say thank you, if we can recognize Christ is there, we do what's in front of us. I tell parents and what I remind myself is the only thing I need to do, the only ball that can't drop is my focus on being peaceful. So I had a situation where we were at dinner. I forget how it started as we often do, but one of my kids said something, and another sibling reacted to that. And within a split second, a third one was taking a side and then a fourth one, and it's like a wildfire spread around my table.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I'm like, oh my gosh. And it's dinnertime, and so my internal fire is going. And I I said to myself, the I I can't solve this. I can't stop it. There is no hope.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But I had been practicing. Just stay calm and connect with each one. So I touched the person next to me, the kid next to me. I went to the other one. I just and I thought to myself, the only thing my kids need is to stay peaceful.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I can't figure anything out. Stay peaceful as I take a step and connect with the kids. And and so that's literally I was focusing on that as I'm trying to connect with each kid, sending one out of the room, you know, just focusing on that. Within five minutes, everyone calmed down. I think one person was sent out.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I was like
Michelle Moujaes:Could have been so different. I love them.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I thought because I know the only thing that would have made it worse
Michelle Moujaes:Is if you lost control.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:My marbles. Yeah. And they don't even remember the incident. I do. And I'm like, that's kind of a victory.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Even though I solved nothing, completely knew didn't know what to do, I just remember, oh, this so that's what it looks like. Looks like us, know, you can't stay in charge unless you stay in control. And that's about staying in control when there's a mess. We just are not called to do it alone. So when we fail, we share with someone.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This this is this is where I lose my cool.
Michelle Moujaes:Let me let me ask you then. It feels like this season of parents I wanna choose my words carefully, but it feels like everything's so heavy and that we have this feeling that all may not be okay or every all the stakes seem higher than when my mom talks about raising us. And is it true that the state I mean, I know that we have a lot of new things in the world that are scary and, you know, different than when my parents were raising us. But what I would wonder is, is it just that we have changed our mindset and it feels so much heavier, or is it that we have missed kind of the knowing that everything's okay? This is part of the process, part of the journey because we're in pursuit of perfectionism.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, what is it that has made it seem so I hate to use the word, but it's a little darker for a lot of people in a lot of places.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Doesn't it feel a little darker?
Michelle Moujaes:It feels a little darker.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It does.
Michelle Moujaes:But that's such a bummer. I love my kids. I have so much fun with them, and I don't want it to have a dark tinge Is over
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:it darker in your home, and is it darker in the church? Number two, no matter how dark the darker it gets, the brighter a light shines.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So I do think it feels darker. But I also know I think every generation has felt that.
Michelle Moujaes:Have they felt that? That's It what I wanna
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:it's darker now. Kids, you know, the kids in the sixties. Look at these hippies.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. You know, imagine throughout every generation feels like things are getting darker. I think it's a feature of this world, and it's a temptation to scare us and to take our eyes off the light. So there's two Love that. There's two or three areas that we are responsible for.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:In our inner life. Are we practicing peace? Are we learning to pray? Are we connected to the church personally? Are we paying attention during liturgy?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because this is the light. Mhmm. And remember, Christ tells us the the darkness cannot overtake the light. There is nothing to fear. And it's not like America is great, but it is like the more news you watch, everyone's yelling, oh, this is horrible.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You know? So it's we we can watch how much media we consume.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I think that's a really big one. Because the industry is scared us. Yes. We do this.
Michelle Moujaes:And listen. In church Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What do we say? We we sing holy god, holy mighty. And it's not that we ignore the dark, but it's kind of like we ignore the dark because when you the answer to darkness is just light a candle.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, the answer to the dark world
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Is Christ in our hearts.
Michelle Moujaes:Focus on the light.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we're talking parenting now, Michelle. Do What you wanna pass on to your kids? What do we wanna pass on to our kids? Fear of the dark or the peace
Michelle Moujaes:Focus on the light.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Of the light.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that happens with you and I in the midst of our home when our kids are coming home with scary stories. Whenever and we we we still we do what we're called to do. We go to church. We pray. We forgive.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We learn to respond instead of freak out. When we do lose our marbles, we say forgive me.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then at night, we say goodnight. We have a little eat.
Michelle Moujaes:Yep. I love it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And this is Christ in the world.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that. I think that kind of intentional focus on the light is key for any home. And I think when I say intentional, if I'm to get practical, like choosing how much and what we consume
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Exactly. Could
Michelle Moujaes:not be more important to me.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I agree. I think it's really important that we are intentional about the things we let into our homes. Right. The news, the movies, the conversations at the dinner table. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Not that we're afraid of it, but why doesn't we don't need it. It doesn't belong there.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think it's like our like our church on Sunday. We go to church not to be in battles in the world, but to seek the kingdom, to to leave this earth, and to to kind of orient ourselves toward the kingdom, which is what we're created for, and that's fulfilling. Mhmm. And so in a home, if our kids grow up in a home like that, they're gonna feel that peace. So no matter what they're exposed to in the world, when they come home, it's it's a place of peace.
Michelle Moujaes:So let's get granular. Does that mean that there are certain conversations you put a kibosh to at the dinner table?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It makes perfect sense to say that is not I don't wanna talk about that at dinner.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:In some cases, it might be as I think as the kids get older, it's appropriate to teach them how to talk about some of these conversations.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because that might be a place where we learn to share ideas, and that's nice to share ideas. But when we incorporate kind of a worldly way of talking, most of the news, most of the things we hear, most of the way people talk about things is not a gentle exchange of ideas.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's polarized. It's vitriol. Right. And our kids get exposed to that. My young adult kids are exposed to that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. So I'll either prohibit that way of talking or prohibit that topic.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I wanna teach them, no. You you you're okay to have ideas, but we wanna share them with respect. We wanna be able to ask questions. And sometimes you have to undo some of the hate Mhmm. And fear Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's laced in in the world around us. Yeah. But if we're anxious about it, that's not gonna help.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:If we're strict about it, that's good.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I actually find for many of my friends that are single parents, that's a really hard, situation to be in because they have to face so many different unique things or unique circumstances or they don't have other people to talk to or bounce it off. Yeah. They're alone. That's a hard one.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It is hard.
Michelle Moujaes:How does a parent kind of come up with the list of things that they really don't wanna indulge in for lack of a better word?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I wanna respond to the single parents because it's hard enough to parent.
Michelle Moujaes:So hard.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And when you're alone, it it's much harder. Many single parents tell me, there are some nice things about single parenting. It's not all doom and gloom. It's nice. You can do what you think is best.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And that's nice. And, really, oftentimes, you have a great connection with your children.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So I really don't wanna portray, oh my gosh, all is lost. No. You know, I think it is there are some beautiful things. But what's clear is that it's a heavier burden to carry. Yes.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Where you're the mom and you have to be the dad, and you don't have a partner, an adult to tag out with. It is harder. And it's important for us as a church to know these certain areas, they it's a heavier burden. And if we love God, how can we possibly not reach out and say, how can I be helpful? Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How can I help you logistically? Mhmm. How can I help you financially? How can I welcome you into our community as a full member? Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You don't need to have an intact family to be a member, and this is your community.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. Actually, as I grew up in a single parent household, my father was killed when we were very young by a drunk driver. I was six. My brother was seven. And my mom, you know, she's young, 32 year old woman.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, now what am I gonna do? Right. But the impact of particularly the men in the church who came alongside us. Right. And they're like, we're gonna teach your son how to cut down a tree or mow the grass and, you know, spend time with her cooking.
Michelle Moujaes:It made all the difference. It could have been such a different journey. But I think it's easy for us because there are so many single parents in our communities to opt out of that. And I guess the call to action for those of us in the church
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:is imperative the call
Michelle Moujaes:to action.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I will say, now imagine if your mom was single because of divorce.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:If that wouldn't have been a little bit different. Yes. Sometimes parents oh, the widow?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's beautiful. Yeah. Somehow, the one who's divorced, well, there's a sense, the same struggle.
Michelle Moujaes:Same struggle.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Except the divorce, it's even harder. Yep. Because, you know, god knows what the other partner is doing, and we need the same call of action. Yep. Like, Christ doesn't ask, well, wait a minute.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We'll help you, but, you know, there's it's unconditional.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we are literally called to help those families with greater need.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so it's this is part of this process. So your other question was, how do you know what conversations to limit? I think that number one, it's when it doesn't feel right. We get a sense of this this kind of feels
Michelle Moujaes:Why are we talking about
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Why are we talking about this? Or why do we keep talking about this? It doesn't feel peaceful. Something's up.
Michelle Moujaes:Nice.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And then in consultation because with the other adults in the home and and to be clear, I'll talk about this, but this seems to be fighting. This doesn't seem to be listening. Right? Because in many ways, the dinner table at home is the practice field.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So maybe
Michelle Moujaes:So you're talking about more How you talk? Polarizing content.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And what you talk.
Michelle Moujaes:You're not talking about things like, if kids come to you with questions or like, what's this crazy thing I heard about?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think the dinner is a great place.
Michelle Moujaes:That's a great place for that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To model how we talk about things.
Michelle Moujaes:Great. That's good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because that's the other thing is we gotta be careful how we talk about things.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:If there's an ideology that's common in the world that we, the church, is gonna reject, we gotta be careful how we talk about it. Because if we are condemning people and and talking about people who believe all sorts of things, if we talk to them in a in a condemning way, we lose sight that this is that's an icon of Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We want our children to know that that person who has a completely different idea of gender, of marriage, of anything, of God, they're still an icon of Christ. Yeah. So there's a way to learn to say, you know, we have a different understanding. They don't know what God teaches, or they don't agree with what God has teached. And that's a nice way of saying it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We don't need to condemn that we actually aren't better. And so this is where the house gets filled with that. Because if we're condemning and hating on people
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:As if hate is some sort of Christian virtue
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's confusing.
Michelle Moujaes:That's
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:super confusing. While simultaneously completely disagreeing.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? That's the nature of Christ's love. You talked to the Samaritan woman. They were considered heretics. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Christ knew who he was enough just to draw close.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Alright. Let's look at the questions we have from our folks here. We got a question from Emily, a mother of two adult children ages 19 and 21, who describes herself as the mother of a Protestant family whose college age daughter is interested in Orthodoxy, and she wants to share it with our family. How can I best support her in her journey and her seeking?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Beautiful. Is the mother Orthodox, are you thinking, the mother of Protestant?
Michelle Moujaes:She's the mother of a Protestant family, but her daughter is interested in Orthodoxy.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Boy, that's a beautiful question. Yeah. So my answer to that would be, I would welcome I would in general with our adult children, we ask them, tell me what you're thinking, and tell me what you're seeing, and tell me what you're learning. I think as a mom, to go on this learning journey with her
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:For a couple of reasons. Number one, if she goes off into something crazy that's confusing, you can ask her, right, and have her explain it. Right? And then you might learn something, or your daughter might learn something because we don't wanna control our kids. You know, at what age do we stop controlling our children?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, actually, we should never control them.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. Right. Because it's very easy to say, when you're in my house, it's my rules.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then somehow, the day they leave, they're now equipped to make their own decisions.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:No. We should collaborate with our kids. We should walk alongside. We should set up parameters within which they make their own decisions. So if our child is discovering orthodoxy, I think it's great even at the dinner table, unless somehow the two brothers are like, I'm not interested.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:If it creates conflict
Michelle Moujaes:Right. It's a side combo.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. It's a side combo. But what a beautiful thing. And this is what I do with my kids, and I recommend whatever they're learning. Whatever they're doing, suddenly, when my daughter was in ballet, I became an expert in ballet.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And it's even funnier because as a child, my parents forced me to go to the Nutcracker. It was torture.
Michelle Moujaes:Torture.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But when your child suddenly does ballet That's it. Suddenly you're watching it.
Michelle Moujaes:We had there's a great example we have from a good friend of ours. They, go to our kids go to school together, and their daughter went to college and was assigned to all this reading. And she was talking to her dad about it, and he said, listen. I'm gonna read that book with you, and we're gonna discuss it because that is definitely not how we believe. Right.
Michelle Moujaes:And so read the book and kinda went through the course with her Exactly. So that he could constantly kind of undo some of what she was
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:learning in
Michelle Moujaes:school. I thought it was such a great example.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that I see that as the Orthodox way where we're not afraid, read that, and then we're gonna have a response
Michelle Moujaes:to it. That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because it's the truth. We don't we don't need to defend it.
Michelle Moujaes:But it does kind of under it has this undercurrent of you're confident enough in yourself to know that you know how to respond. Like, if I had to go read the book, I'm like, I don't even I'm not even tracking.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's Good job.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. So now what? What do you do when you don't feel equipped?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Most that's such a great question. Because my kids are learning stuff, and I have no idea how to teach them. Yeah. I feel responsible to connect them to people who do.
Michelle Moujaes:Fair. I like that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I don't chant, and my kids have musical talent. I have none. I'm like, alright. My kid's got a talent in an area that I don't have. I'm gonna find someone.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So you connect them You build community. To your priest.
Michelle Moujaes:Love
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:it. Right? Because really It's
Michelle Moujaes:so good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The goal is that our children learn that there there's there's something bigger than their parents. And if they're 12, they're they they can go learn from someone else. Imagine the the skills of the community, and your child is, like, into carpentry, you you can barely swing a hammer.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I can connect you to someone who can.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's what we and it's beautiful. The message it sends is I'm not controlling you. I'm respecting you and connecting you to your gifts.
Michelle Moujaes:That is great. That is great. Well, I think that's actually all we have time for today, but this was a lot of fun. Grateful. And you know something I wanna give one plug.
Michelle Moujaes:You mentioned earlier in this episode about the importance of us taking a minute, taking calm, praying for our children and ourselves. I would encourage people check out the encounter, which is Faith Tree Resources free prayer app. It's called the encounter. And there's a whole section on praying for our children, all sorts of prayers and akathis and, lots of resources to help us as parents really, get on our knees. And as I have one priest friend who says beg God to help us through this process of parenting our children.
Michelle Moujaes:So you can check out the encounter. It's on the App Store and the Google Store. Alright. Well, thank you. It has been fun, and thanks to you for listening to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting, where each week we try to help you raise kids who love Christ and become most like him.
Michelle Moujaes:And, hey, listen. If this episode blessed you, would you do us a favor? Would you consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend? And here's why. When you do that, it helps more families like yours find the show and to learn from people like doctor Mamalakis.
Michelle Moujaes:And last thing, if you wanna go deeper, don't forget to download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes or by going to faithtree.org/parenting. The guide is a free gift for you and your family and a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we talked about today and to share conversation with your spouse or your friends or your community at church. Check it out and we, God willing, we'll see you next time.