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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:06)
Good morning.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:07)
Good morning. Good afternoon. For me.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:09)
And good night. yeah,
I guess it's technically good afternoon here as well. But whatever, wherever somebody might be listening to it, it's early morning. So good morning, listener, or good night as you're drifting off to sleep.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:20)
Good day, good whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:21)
Yeah. today is September 14th for people listening live. And the reason I'm saying that is just to put a time and place on what we're talking about because it's like stuff that's going on right now, which is McLeamore just got kicked off the Ed Sheeran tour. So thought we'd talk a little bit about that, about Israel, about Zionism, about genocide, and Hollywood and all of that jazz. So and I was just saying.
We may be out of our depths on this one, but here we are.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:51)
I mean, aren't we all out of our depths at some point or another?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:55)
I mean, listen,
yeah, I think here's where I I'll just start out with this because before we even get into all the specifics, I have for a long time, I would use the like I'm not an expert on geopolitics
Taina Brown she/hers (01:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:06)
sort of stance to avoid getting in the middle of debates around what was hap what has historically for min for a very long time been going on in that region of the world, with
Taina Brown she/hers (01:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:18)
Palestine and Israel. And I recognize now
One, that's a real privilege to be able to just say, I'm just i it's the same as like we don't talk politics, right? It's like, I don't know
Taina Brown she/hers (01:27)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:28)
enough, so I'm gonna excuse myself. And two, I think that you don't have to know everything to also be able to at minimum have a stand that says, I may not know all the details. I may not be able to tell you exactly what I think should happen as far as the politics of the region, but I know enough to say I can see when
People are being murdered and it's not okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:51)
Yeah, yeah. When a genocide is happening and that's and so many other international entities have declared it a genocide and said that war crimes are happening and yet people over here and everywhere are, you know, just no, we don't see anything.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:07)
Yeah. Well, okay, so
Taina Brown she/hers (02:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:09)
McLeamore got on a stage. I think he had two nights before all this unfolded and he was kicked off the tour.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:15)
So he just got
fired today? I hadn't I hadn't seen that happen yet. Okay. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:18)
Today or yesterday, he just released a statement about it today. He may have
let me it may have been yesterday that he got kicked off and then today is
Taina Brown she/hers (02:25)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:26)
the day he released his statement. I can't be positive. But I mean it's just unfolding. And it was only a few days ago, last week, he went on a big stage. I don't remember what city they were in. He opened for Ed Sheeran air Ed Sheeran sells out stadiums, right? Or stadia.
Anyway, large venues, very large venues, right? So it was a stadium with like 90,000 people, apparently, or something like that. It was huge. And he got out and he said, free Palestine. I don't remember exactly what he said, but he even said, like to my Jew, you know, to the Jewish people in the audience, this isn't about that. It's not about you. This is about, you know, Israel and the actions they're taking and the innocent people that are dying in
Taina Brown she/hers (03:01)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:01)
Gaza and in Palestine. And
Taina Brown she/hers (03:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:05)
held up a Palestinian flag.
And I think on the screen it said like free Palestine. I didn't
Taina Brown she/hers (03:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:10)
hear booing. I heard a lot of cheering. That doesn't mean that there weren't people who were booing, but that was what I heard. And then I think he may have done two nights. And then Pink posted about it. And it's very interesting to me. Now Pink has, I didn't know Pink was Jewish. Pink apparently is Jewish. And posted a whole thing about that on her social media. And saying
Taina Brown she/hers (03:28)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:28)
how at first.
She posted something and I don't know what it was because I think she took it down or something or wouldn't she turn off comments, something that was critical. And then people started to push back on her and she shut off comments and she started like posting all these like memes that were
Taina Brown she/hers (03:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:46)
aggressive and shitty and whatever. And then it
Taina Brown she/hers (03:49)
It's like are
are we in are we in high school now? Like yeah, I saw that. I was like, What?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:52)
Exit Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:54)
Like anyway, go ahead.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:55)
It wasn't he
she didn't handle it well, which she then finally issued a s she issued her statement on Instagram. It was very lengthy, but it the gist of it was this made many Jewish people in the audience feel uncomfortable. And it makes me feel uncomfortable. And I will always speak out. I'm Jewish, I will always speak out for my Jewish, you know, for Jewish people, and I am I don't think this was right. Bloody blah de blah.
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:25)
That then became pretty divisive. And I don't know if Pink resp or if McLemore responded specifically to that particular thing. But then there were all these calls for him to be fired from the show, whatever. And so I just think the part that I think is interesting is to listen to I'm gonna just read parts of what he shared here today. Because I think it's
Taina Brown she/hers (04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:45)
first of all, he did a really I think what he did was a really beautiful job of his response, McLeore's response. So he said, you know.
That Ed and his team did make the decision to remove him for the tour. And first he wanted to say, Ed, I love this part. He said, I want to say something that should be obvious. And in this moment, I think it matters. I am not a victim. Ed Sheeran is not a victim. Pink is not a victim. We have careers, monies, money, opportunity, safety, and audiences around the world. Whatever consequences any of us face for what we say, we get to go to home to our families. The victims are the Palestinian people. The men, women, and children who have been killed, starved, displaced, and forced to live through unimaginable violence. Wanted
More than twenty thousand children have been killed in Gaza alone. People are being killed today and people will be killed tomorrow. I wanna make sure that as I tell the story, we don't lose sight of that. I thought it was a beautiful place to start. To
quickly make it clear, I'm not a victim here. She's not no one's a victim here on this side of this, right? We know
Taina Brown she/hers (05:35)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just because
you felt uncomfortable doesn't make you a victim. Which is what we talked about last week, right?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:41)
Which I feel like well,
it hasn't been released yet. But the an upcoming episode talks all about discomfort. So it'll be perfect
Taina Brown she/hers (05:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:48)
on the heels of this. Because yeah, just 'cause you it made you feel uncomfortable while you are in a stadium where you probably paid hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to be there. So clearly have
Taina Brown she/hers (05:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:58)
some privilege and are in the United States where you're under no like physical threat. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:03)
Okay,
that's not yours. And and there was no calls to violence. Just to be clear, nothing that Ed Sheeran said was any call to violence. There were
Taina Brown she/hers (06:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:10)
no personal attacks or attacks on a group of individuals, right? He he did not say anything anti-Semitic. In fact, went out of his way to make sure he was being clear that this was not about saying, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (06:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:23)
to his Jewish friends, he's like, that's not what I'm saying. But what he said is he and Ed have been friends for 13 years, for more than a decade, and that.
They had a long, hard conversation. They've had several long, hard conversations about this. And he got pretty honest and shared that. And what I thought was very interesting is he said that Ed Sharon told him that Ed Kraft, I mean Robert Kraft, Robert Kraft, who know owns famously the New England Patriots, and also owns Gillette Stadium. And that is where they were scheduled to perform soon. And he was told that that Robert Kraft told Ed, and no under no uncertain circumstances, that
McLamore was not allowed to perform in his stadium, in Gillette Stadium, and that he also was getting other stadium owners to collectively give an ultimate ultimatum saying that if McLemore's on the tour, you can't play in our venues. So they're using that power that they have, right? To say, we're going to stop this, stop you from doing something. Now, Ed Sheeran couldn't got had a choice to make there. And and Ed's or McLamore said, hey, he's in a fucked up position, right?
And apparently Ed Sheeran was saying, I take an apolitical stance. And I think this is where it gets really interesting. Cause here's where your quote unquote apolitical, I'm not political, I don't do politics, gets you. Right. You don't get out of it. So he said that the words free Palestine and the image in the image of a Palestinian flag were hurtful to many of the people that he had spoken with. So I find that very interesting.
And we can get more into what that all means as far as the state of Israel, Zionism, Judaism, that just an image of a Palestinian flag, and that saying free Palestine was hurtful and offensive. and he said that those words were. I told him that if those words are more offensive than tens of thousands of Palestinian children being killed by Israel, there's a fundamental disconnect between where those people stand and where I stand. And he said, but then he said.
Ed Sheeran couldn't get past his I don't take sides, in quotes. So they ultimately decided to let him go. And and McLamore said, I get it. I understand why people say I don't take sides. Taking sides can cost you. And he talks about
like
Taina Brown she/hers (08:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (08:27)
brand deals and sponsorships and all of that. But here's what I think is also great. He says, quote, there is no neutral position between the oppressor and the oppressed.
When one side has bombs and bottomless financial and military support from America, refusing to take you aside doesn't leave you in the middle. And Ed Sheeran, I I think that while Macklemore handled this very well, and there's more, but I think it's very interesting because he did kind of hang out Ed Sheeran out to drive a bit, but in the best possible way. Because it's the same as there thank you. You're right. You're right, you're right. No!
Taina Brown she/hers (08:55)
I Echirin hung himself out to dry. Let's reframe that. Yeah. Like McAmore didn't lie, he didn't
well, not that we know of anyway, right? Yeah, because he could have been like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:04)
And in many ways it seems to me he was very nice 'cause he could have been like pissed.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:08)
this motherfucker, yeah, I'm just like, after thirteen years of friendship, this is what he did to me, right? Like,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:13)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:14)
but he just it seems like he just laid out the facts.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:17)
So people can understand what I think to me the the sharing of that and I really appreciate it because I feel like it does help people understand the machinations of what happens when you
Taina Brown she/hers (09:28)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:29)
are someone who chooses to speak out. And just to be clear, we're talking here about Israel, about what's happening with Palestine. you know, potentially we'll talk a little bit about Zionism. But this is not just this. And I like where he mentioned the oppressor and the oppressed, because this happens when you choose to speak out.
In all cases of oppression, oppressors and oppressed. Whether
Taina Brown she/hers (09:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:48)
you're speaking out against the rapist in chief, right? And talking about how we need to f have like you can't even get justice for these women, but there should be accountability for what's happened to all of those
Taina Brown she/hers (09:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (10:00)
women. Or when you're talking about Black Lives Matter and you're talking about George Floyd or anything else since the the sadly hundreds of black men who've continued to die at the hands of police and and ice agents and such since.
All and no matter the circumstance, when you're in that, you're this is the there are costs. Yeah. Like
Taina Brown she/hers (10:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (10:15)
we can't pretend that there's not. There are real costs. And I like that he's sharing that. That hey, this but this is what it looks like to say, I see the costs and I'm gonna pay him anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:24)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and to be, you know, to be fair, like, and he he's he you read the part of the statement where he says this, you know, in the beginning, like, I'm not a victim here. Like, I get to go home. Like, he he's still he's still quite comfortable in his own privilege, even after getting fired from this tour. So it's not it it obviously will c it's costing him something, but you know, the the value of that.
I think it is different for people in different situations based on the type of privilege that they have or don't have. But I think this is a really clear example of how power operates, right? Like it it's strategic, it's very strategic, it's very intentional, right? Like power will not give up power, like it will organize to maintain its power, to maintain its status quo. And what that means is like the people who have power will do that.
Like
right, right. Power is not like this ambiguous, sentient thing on its own. It's people who
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:22)
Not yet.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:23)
have power who are making these decisions, making these calls, giving these ultimatums, strategizing behind the scenes. And so I I've I've I've heard people say this and I've I've had this thought myself for a long time now that it's like
When it comes to like American politics specifically, when we're talking about the differences between like the Republican and the Democratic Party, the Republican Party is quite smart. They've been using this same strategy for decades now, and it has worked for them in terms of
Closing ranks, right? Consolidating power, right? Like getting behind one or two candidates, not like forcing people to split the vote. Whereas like the Democratic Party has has not really had much of a consistent strategy over the past however many decades. And that's that's come back to bite them in the foot. And I'm not saying that like the Democrat.
Democratic Party or or anyone should be using the same strategy as the Republicans, but like it's it's naive and irresponsible to assume that just saying the right things will work in your favor. Like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:36)
No, I mean the right things often work against your favor. And in fact, I would say
Taina Brown she/hers (12:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:40)
the one area where the Democrats have molded themselves after the Republicans, there's probably more, but I'm gonna give one clear example and where this does happen is around issues around Israel. Because the APAC
Taina Brown she/hers (12:50)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:51)
lot lobby is so will spend so much money to
Taina Brown she/hers (12:55)
Much money.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:56)
make sure that pro-Israel and and
Taina Brown she/hers (12:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:58)
pro-Zionist candidates get elected.
That the and the Democrats don't want to lose that money, so they operate very much in the same way that they allow their policy to be dictated by power and by wealth versus what may or may not be right. And I think it's shifting. I mean, we see folks like Mam Dani and Al Sayyed and and you know, some of these more DSA sort of folks that are showing up and pushing back on this and rejecting that money. But I mean, you have Hake Hakeem Jeffries and and Schumer, and I mean here in St. Louis, Wesley Bell.
You know, a black man
Taina Brown she/hers (13:30)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:31)
who to beat a black woman in the campaign, sorry, that may have sounded like he was hitting her. I to win against the black woman in the election, accepted something almost like twenty million dollars, which in a small local congressional race in St. Louis is a huge, huge
Taina Brown she/hers (13:44)
That's a lot of fucking money, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:47)
amount of money. I mean, she had less than a million. Not I don't even know she got to half a million. So there was just no way. And the lies I mean, I I saw it, and I'm not I'm not even I've been gerrymandered out of her district.
And I still was getting inundated with the ads and the flyers. It was nonstop. Every day there was stuff coming in with lies about her and lies about him that made him look better, all because he has made it clear he will support whatever APAC tells him to. Meaning he will support any funding for Israel, military funding, anything to keep that going. And so the Democrats have done, they do fall in line in that way. Because again,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:22)
it's not it's not about.
Sadly, ideology often loses out to money, right? When it comes down
Taina Brown she/hers (14:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:28)
to can't at the candidate level. Now I think the APAC has an ideology. So they're pushing their ide ideology, but
Taina Brown she/hers (14:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:34)
individuals will allow their own value set to be set aside because they want money and they want power. And if you lose, you don't you lose your power, right? So Wesley Bell's like, well, okay. You know, and that's
Taina Brown she/hers (14:43)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:45)
it it it's it's tough when you're up against that, when the power system
wants to preserve the status quo and will do what it takes to make it happen. You got, you know, Robert Kraft saying you can't play in my stadium. And then what does that look like? Right? Where do you go? When those with the power also hold, you know, the purse rings, they hold the the space if you need that. Like it does become
Taina Brown she/hers (15:04)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:07)
challenging, but it's not an excuse. It shouldn't be an excuse for Ed Sheeran to be like, well then I opt out of the discussion. Because he
Taina Brown she/hers (15:15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:15)
he hasn't opted out.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:16)
Yeah, yeah. He's made a statement, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:16)
In his efforts to opt out, he's opted all the way in now because now
I would have never known where er where Ed Sheeran stood on this stuff.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:23)
But now we do.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:24)
I sure as hell do now and now I have zero interest in not that I was ever an Ed Sheeran fan, but I have zero interest in being an Ed Sheeran fan. And I'm just gonna go listen to, you know, Thrift Shop one more time. Sadly it's the only Ed McL or the only McLamore song I know, but
Taina Brown she/hers (15:37)
Yeah, yeah, that that's really unfortunate. That was disappointing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:39)
And I really liked pink. That part pisses me off too.
So disappointing.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:44)
That was incredibly disappointing. when I saw that pop up on my feed last week and then I saw images of her at the US Open over the weekend with Elizabeth Banks and Amy Adams. And I was like, Well, I guess those are two more people that are on my shit list. but
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:01)
Because you know
what, I could hear people saying, let me just throw this at you. Cause I'm interested to hear your take. I have a take, but I want to hear yours. I cause I saw that too. I saw Pink there laughing around with her girl gal pals at the US Open right on the heels of all this after she had issued the statement, which by the way, she did take a far more victim sort of approach. Because her whole thing was like about how she's been all alone and no one's helping her and like she's been isolated and she's feeling shut out. Like it was very centered around how the reaction has hurt her.
Which is again one reason, like, please read
Taina Brown she/hers (16:31)
Nothing has hurt you.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:33)
read the two statements side by side. And I think it's just so important as white women for us to see what it looks like.
Cause if yet when people ask me what is white feminism, pink will
be my new example. She's my new
Taina Brown she/hers (16:42)
That that right there. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:44)
example. And that statement, because you can compare it to Evan Moore's and see the difference. One is not about him, and one is all about her and how pain she is. So anyway, she had just issued the statement about how she has no friends anymore and everybody hates her and whatever. And then here she is Buddy Buddy with those girls.
So then I was sitting there watching that thinking F them also. And it sucks because I like Elizabeth Banks, but I was thinking F them. And then I wondered, and and interestingly, Amy Adams is doing Cape Fear with Harv Javier Bardem, who is very, very pro
Taina Brown she/hers (17:11)
Mm-hmm. Very pro Palestine, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:14)
Palestine and speaking out about genocide. So I'm very interested in, I wish I could be a fly on the wall for them, those
Taina Brown she/hers (17:19)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:20)
two talking. But I was curious when you have a friend who has a disagreement with you, a fundamental
Disagreement. do we hold it against them? Like could they be friends with Pink and also just not agree with her on this? What are you what are your thoughts on that? 'Cause I I had the same thought of like fuck them too, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:37)
Yeah.
I think at their level of public influence, no. Like me
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:41)
There you go.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:42)
as a person, nobody's fucking looking at my Instagram. No one's going, you know, and and and I I I preface
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:48)
If you're at the US Open you're not making it on camera.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:50)
right. I preface that by saying if I have a friend who has a difference in values that is that much of a difference in values, right?
Then that is an ongoing conversation that I will be having with that friend and trying to determine for myself what value am I getting out of this friendship, right? Like where could this potentially go if there is such a big gap in our values, right? Like those are questions that I would be asking myself, right? If I were a public persona who just issued or who had a friend who had just got into
The public spotlight for this kind of thing. No, I would not be fucking sitting with her. I would not be chummy chummy with her. Because I want I would want to make it clear to the people who do look to me as someone as a celebrity, as someone with a public image that like there our our values are not aligned here. And so I think.
The more power and influence you have, the more that people look to you for influ for influential things and for decision making, like the less the less you're able to just kind of be like, well, it is what it is, kind of a thing. Like you have chosen a career to be in the public spotlight, and with that comes a certain amount of responsibility and accountability.
That
you owe to people, right? And it's not that she owes every that these, you know, the three of them or whoever, it's not that they owe everything to everybody, but explanations are owed. Like you're you wouldn't be anything without your fan base, right? Like you wouldn't have a career without people going to watch your movies. Obviously, you know, without the production companies and without like your own skills and and
And talents as well, but like there's a parasocial relationship between celebrities and the people who are their fans, the people who are in their fan base. And with that parasocial relationship, as with any relationship, comes a responsibility, comes a sense of accountability that needs to be taken seriously, right?
And so and and that doesn't mean again, that doesn't mean that they owe you everything. It doesn't mean that or that you that they owe their fans everything. It doesn't mean that they have to stop for every photo or sign every autograph or or do whatever it is that the fans want them to do. But issues like this that matter, that have like real life or death consequences for people, yeah, you you owe your fans an explanation for something like this.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:26)
Well,
I mean, think Pi Pink chose to stand stand ten toes down on what where she feels. And again, I
Taina Brown she/hers (20:30)
Mm-hmm. yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:32)
that's ultimately her right, right? Like I I'm not
Taina Brown she/hers (20:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:35)
here to say Pink can't believe what she believes. I think it's wrong headed, right? And I definitely think the way she discussed it was wrongheaded. Like I don't think it was an approach
Taina Brown she/hers (20:44)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:45)
to talking about something that makes me more sympathetic when you're centering yourself in all of it. But she does have every right to feel what she feels and to believe what she believes. Like
I can't say someone doesn't have the right to be Zionist.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:56)
You do. And though, I do think that if you, if your friends are using their platform to continue to platform you, and that's what this is, they could have stayed home and watched this on TV together. None of us would have ever known. So if you're out in
Taina Brown she/hers (21:06)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:08)
public in front of a very large national global audience, correct.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:10)
You're making a statement. You're every
time you choose to be as a celebrity, every time you choose you allow yourself to be photographed and put on display, that is an intentional choice, right? Like cause there are other celebrities that you never fucking see on TV. Why is that? Because they choose not to, right? They choose to keep their life private.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:26)
Correct. Mm-hmm. Right. And so you're there
and you're using your platform by sitting with her and knowing you're gonna be seen together or that you could be seen together. That is using your platform to basically co-sign her platform. In the
Taina Brown she/hers (21:42)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:43)
same way, and I think about this like I'm not I'm nobody, right? Like I'm not famous, whatever, but I still think about where do I have platforms. And I do have,
Taina Brown she/hers (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:49)
like in the in my business sphere, as small as it is.
It still is a platform where I can choose to either walk in my values or not. And if I were
Taina Brown she/hers (21:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:59)
to find out, if you were, you know, somebody was, let's say it was you, I know it wouldn't be, but let's say it was you tomorrow, say, you know what? Actually, I've now decided I'm Zionist. I don't, you know, I I'm you can't use the word genocide on the podcast anymore because it's too upsetting
Taina Brown she/hers (22:11)
Much.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:12)
to me, whatever, then that is where I would have to say, I you and I could continue in the same way that I think.
Ed that Macklemore was saying with Ed Sheeran. He and I will continue to have conversations. I hope we can still be friends, he said.
But we
Taina Brown she/hers (22:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:24)
have a very fundamental difference. You and I could continue to have conversations about these things and see if we could find a place
Taina Brown she/hers (22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:30)
where we could maybe meet in the middle or whatever, but I would not share my platform with you anymore, right? I would
Taina Brown she/hers (22:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:37)
not say then let's continue to do this podcast. because no,
Taina Brown she/hers (22:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:41)
that's that's lending some of my platform to you and you.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:46)
Vice versa, right? And like, no, I won't do that. I'm not gonna have somebody at an event if I know that we are that fundamentally different and I am that way platforming them, right? so
Taina Brown she/hers (22:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:57)
I do think those things matter. And I don't think it's enough
Taina Brown she/hers (22:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:59)
to just be able to try to go with this like, well, we're friends and friends can disagree. Yes, and there's more context than that and more nuance than
Taina Brown she/hers (23:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:08)
that.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:08)
Yeah. Yeah. There's a difference between disagreement and values and a difference in values, right?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:12)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:13)
Like we can disagree about whether Paul Rudd or Jeff Goldblum are the better option, right? We've had that conversation on their podcast before. But we
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:20)
We well I mean we can, but we can also just say you're wrong and I'm right, but whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:28)
but we cannot disagree on what constitutes the value of a human life.
Right, who gets to live and who doesn't get to live, like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:36)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:36)
for some arbitrary reason. Like that's not a disagreement that we can have. And I think that like the way that Macklemore put out that statement today, like obviously he knew there were gonna be there was gonna be news about him being kicked off the tour.
And he put out something to his fan base and said, This is this is what happened, this is where I am, this is how I'm feeling about it, right? Because he understands that responsibility, that parasocial relationship between him and his fan base, right? Who may have bought tickets because they wanted to see both Ed Sheeran and him, right? Not just Ed Sheeran, right? and so I think, like you said, like, yeah, you can obviously choose to
Try to be as apolitical as you want or to you know defend Zionism and and whatever. And but you can't choose how people respond to you because of that. Just the same way, like we can't choose how people respond to our podcast when we talk about shit like this, right? Because like nobody
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:36)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:36)
owes anybody anything, right? And I say that in the most literal sense of the term. I don't say that from a place of like
spite or like resentment or anything like that.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:45)
Right, like, I don't know you shit.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:47)
Yeah, like I like if you have listened to any of our episodes at all, you know that, you know, the both of us, me and you, like we're very invested in community. And so yes, there is a part of me that like feels like I owe things to my community, not at a sense of obligation, but out of sense out of a sense of like collective like liberation and resistance and this desire to thrive. But
Also,
at the end of the day, like when I say nobody owes you anything, what I mean is like I'm not owed anyone's personal feelings on things. Right? Like people are allowed to feel how they want to feel and respond to me how they want to respond to me. Whether or not it's a legitimate response, whether or not it's a healthy response, like the only thing I am in control of is myself.
And how I choose to function in the world, right? And if my neighbor, you know, who is I'm looking at his house right now, that's why like he came to my butt you know, my if my neighbor who is an older white man and racist, like if he wanted to come out of his house tomorrow and just say some shit, like he doesn't owe me anything because he lives across the driveway from me, right? Even though we may have had
kind words to each other in the past. And so this, this, the way that Pink has just kind of like doubled down, it's like she feels like people owe her, you know, some sympathy because people are making fun of her or there's been people or people are criticizing, right? Her stance. And it's like people are allowed to criticize your stance, especially when you're when you hold a public, when you're a public figure.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:27)
Well, especially because
her stance was criticizing McElmore's stance. So yeah, people are criticized your stance.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:31)
Right, right, like what the hell?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:33)
Right. And I haven't seen Ed Sheeran make a statement yet. That should be interesting. My guess is he won't, or if he does, it will be very vanilla.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:38)
Yeah, he probably won't.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:40)
It'll probably be very watered down if there is something, because he's not gonna, you know, his whole thing is being a political quote unquote. I just think that's I think the whole thing is a really interesting study and what it looks like. Like it has so many of the elements of somebody who's trying to speak truth to power.
And the consequences that can happen when you do that. The the the person who thinks that they can be apolitical and stay out of things and how you can try that. But ultimately, these things they're they're everywhere. It's everything. And
Taina Brown she/hers (27:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:07)
your efforts to not say anything is saying something. And then you have sort of this like very typical kind of white feminist response to perceived
Taina Brown she/hers (27:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:18)
well, discomfort is all it is, but to a perceived slight when it's really just about discomfort.
And I just think it's really interesting seeing all of the machinations of so much of what we talk about play out in such a public sphere.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:28)
And one thing I want to say too about the Amy Adams and Elizabeth Banks thing, not to get super conspiratorial. However, I will say that over the weekend, same time as all this is going on, 5,000 people in Hollywood business scholars signed this and they've done it before. So this is not new, but
signed a l a public letter and want you know, Mia Miami B. Alec was one of them as expected. Who are some the other big Deborah Messing, Patricia Heaton. They signed this open letter saying that they don't think people should be allowed to use the word genocide to describe what's happening in Palestine. Despite the fact
Taina Brown she/hers (28:01)
What the fuck?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:03)
despite the fact that global agencies, people that do this it has been Yeah,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:06)
That do this work, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:08)
it has been declared as such and there are countries that like I mean you have Ireland that's full on responding
In the way that I wish America would to say what you are doing is a genocide and we will not support you. not only not min financially and militarily, but like we're not gonna import your goods if you're gonna continue to participate in you know this genocide. It's been determined by Unit the United Nations by many folks,
in that yeah. Right. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:32)
By people who who study this who are experts and here you are this fucking celebrity who thinks you're
an expert in this situation because you have personal feelings. You're not a fucking expert. You just
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:41)
Right. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:43)
have personal feelings. Those are not the same thing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:45)
Or someone
like Deborah Messing who had never I don't even think had been to Israel until a few years ago and then was like, it was like my homeland called to me and now she's like, you know, super supportive. And like I get it. I've been places where I'm like, wow, this place really moves me, or it feels like there feels like there's something deeper here. But also that doesn't excuse that place from like human decency of not harming children. Twenty thousand children have been killed.
In Gaza alone, forget what's starting to happen now in the West Bank, in Lebanon, and anyway. So these these celebrities and and other folks, because some of them were scholars, some of them were business folks, but I'll sign this. There's 5,000 of them that signed this letter. And some of them, though, going back to the Hollywood piece, there's a few like crappy celebrities. I'm like, if I gotta choose between Deborah Messing and Patricia Heaton and Mayan Bialek, or I get Javier Bardem, Hannah,
Taina Brown she/hers (29:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:37)
what's her name from Isen? What's her name from hacks? Hannah.
Whoever, like the Mark Ruffalo, the people who've been out in vocal, Mac Omoore. Like, I'm taking them anyway, because like the talent is better. But
Taina Brown she/hers (29:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:48)
I do wonder because some of the people who signed it were including sh the I think are Summer Redst Summer Redstone's wife, Sherry Redstone. But like there were some people who are fairly high up in the studio world and Hollywood
who do make a lot of decisions about funding.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:01)
Yeah. Yeah. People who are like producers.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:05)
Right,
who make decisions about funding and whatnot. And there's it's not to be conspiratorial, but I do wonder like if there are a lot of celebrities like an Amy Adams who's working, you know, alongside Harvey Airbardem, who could not be more vocal in in his support of the people of Palestine and these and the ending of this genocide. Like you wonder are there is there math that these folks are doing around their careers
To decide where who, where am I aligning myself right now? Who am I showing up with?
Taina Brown she/hers (30:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:32)
Where do I speak out? Where do I not? Like, how do I toe these lines? And I'm sure there has to be some of that calculus happening.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:37)
There has to be, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:39)
And it makes me sort of sick because I just want to see more Mark Ruffaloes. I don't know, for people who don't follow Mark Ruffalo on social media on threads, he's he has no problems speaking out, being vocal.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:49)
Yeah, he's very vocal.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:51)
Very. And there are others as well. Like I was just watching an interview with Tatiana. I don't know how to say her last name, but
Taina Brown she/hers (30:57)
Mazlani
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:58)
she Yeah, thank you. And she's exceptionally, you know, she's Canadian. She doesn't have you know, it's again, it's not like she's got some personal skin in the game. It's just that this is it's her value set. And she's like, I just it's what's right. And and she will say that it's challenging because there are many people in that hold the purse strings, again, going back to that power, who are
Taina Brown she/hers (31:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:18)
like.
Trying to silence people and it's
Taina Brown she/hers (31:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:21)
it's a tough thing to stand up for what you believe
Taina Brown she/hers (31:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:23)
in sometimes.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:24)
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. and yeah, that is sickening to think that like like it I mean I I I I empathize with their position in terms of like having to be in that position in the first place, right? To to to to know what it feels like to be like, well if I if I don't
do like if I if I say something then my like my job or future jobs could be on the line right like nobody wants to be in that position nobody wants to have to like make that call
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:51)
Yeah. And not everyone has Leonardo DiCaprio level money.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:55)
right right but at the same time like they still have an insane amount of privilege like not and and I'm not just talking about wealth I'm talking about racial privilege I'm talking about community privilege I'm talking about gender privilege like I'm talking about
layers and layers of insulation that if they did choose to speak out, like sure they might be blacklisted
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:17)
Anyone who
Taina Brown she/hers (32:18)
from certain things, but at the end of the day they will be fine. They will be fine.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:22)
Anyone who's not living
in Gaza or in the West Bank right now and being bombed, like you have privilege. I don't care who you are. You may think you have
Taina Brown she/hers (32:27)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:30)
none, but it in this particular story, we
all have privilege, even when it feels like
Taina Brown she/hers (32:33)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:34)
we have none, because being unhoused in the US is still privilege over being a child in Gaza right now.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:39)
Yes, over being
Yeah, whose entire family is being wiped out or who's missing a limb or who's having to, you know, see
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:47)
I mean, if you see the stories, it's
Taina Brown she/hers (32:48)
this atrocities. Yeah, it's it's
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:50)
Horrific. Horrific.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:52)
incredibly horrific. And the thing that that always that I always come back to for me, it's like no matter how much insulation you have, like I I just I can't wrap my head around people who don't think that
it
affects them in any way. Because like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:08)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:09)
to be able to do to people what Israel is doing to Palestinians over there, you have to like not see them as human beings. And if you and
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:20)
And they do not because if you s mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:21)
if you if you can do that for one group of people, you can do it for any group of people. Any group of people.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:27)
Yeah, if you and
if you don't believe W which is the part that makes it so hard for so many
Taina Brown she/hers (33:28)
Like, we saw this during the Holocaust. Like, it wasn't just the Jews.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:33)
of us to wrap our brains around. It's like this is how
Taina Brown she/hers (33:35)
It wasn't just Jewish
people. It was a disabled. It was queer people. Like it may have started with the Jewish population, but as soon as they saw, it's so easy for us to do this and we can get away with it, why not just like wipe out anybody we don't want in our society?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:54)
Can't recommend watching Mandy Petinkin talk on this enough. He's a he's a Jewish man who has who passionately speaks about how can we as a people condone or support this behavior, given our own history with the Holocaust. Like he and
Taina Brown she/hers (34:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:10)
he it moves him to tears. Just the disbelief that a that a group of people who have that history and that relationship with genocide.
Could be participating in genocide. Like it's
Taina Brown she/hers (34:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:23)
ja and and I see that and it makes me weep because I just like I I it it's hard for many of us to understand, but it also just goes to show that power can corrupt. Right? And
Taina Brown she/hers (34:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:33)
like bec if you if you need any proof, watch videos of some of the Israeli sett settlers who are settling on the land of Palestinians and are forcibly removing them, forcibly and sometimes
Taina Brown she/hers (34:43)
Move like literally forcibly removing people, just being like, this is my
home now.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:47)
Sometimes through death, but sometimes just
Taina Brown she/hers (34:49)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:49)
by throwing rocks and whatever. But if you watch any of that and the videos are out there, the way they speak to these people, they have lost all sight of their humanity. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:58)
And and how does that happen? And it is this idea an ideology that can get when you get brainwashed into that, when you identify people at a certain of a certain type, right? Meaning like
Taina Brown she/hers (35:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:10)
many of these settlers are young white men, young Jewish white men.
And they are given this message that in an impression impressionable age where they are already right,
Taina Brown she/hers (35:18)
That this is yours, this belongs to you.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:21)
and these people are taking this from you and this the there's this feeling that they're being given and this empowerment that it's being making them feel, right? Like it can happen to anyone if you aren't careful, which is terrifying, which is really terrifying.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:32)
Yeah. Yeah. It is terrifying.
It is terri I've seen videos of young Israeli and like Jewish children like calling Palestinians animals and chanting for their
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:46)
Okay, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:47)
death. And I'm like, how can you want that for your kids? Like, how can you be okay with your children saying such
Undignified things.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:55)
Well, and to n and to be careful about not exceptionalizing the Jewish, Jewish people and or the Israeli the Israel state, which is which are two different things to be clear. Because Mandy Batinkin is a Jewish man who does not agree with what the state of Israel is doing or what settlers
Taina Brown she/hers (36:03)
Mm. Two different things, yes. Yes. But he's with yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:11)
are doing in the name of Judaism. Those those things are different than Egypt's. And to just not exceptionalize it Zionism
Taina Brown she/hers (36:13)
Yeah. Zionist, let Zionist, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:17)
and not to exceptionalize and make it seem as if
What's happening amongst those folks, those Israeli Jews that are doing that is some unique thing to them, right? Because that's where Zion being anti-Zionist gets into anti-Semitism, is when you
Taina Brown she/hers (36:31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:32)
aren't careful to say, this isn't, I'm not talking first of all, it's not about all Jews. It's not about even all right.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:37)
Yeah. No, it's about Zionists. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:40)
And they're not ex this is not something they are doing that is unique to them that makes them exceptionally bad. We see it in the US all the time with white families.
That brainwash and indoctrinate their children into belief systems around black people and saying that that makes them feel perfectly comfortable inside their own homes. And then when they
Taina Brown she/hers (37:00)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:00)
feel emboldened enough when they're in a group of enough of those folks to even use those words out and about, and we're seeing
Taina Brown she/hers (37:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:06)
it more and more, you know, with what's happening in our country. So it's not as if they like I think it can be easy to be like, it's a them problem.
And that would never happen. But it can ha that's why I'm just trying to say it can happen anywhere. It can happen to anyone. My own white son,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:14)
No, no, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:19)
if I am not careful, he can go through that manosphere pipeline and suddenly I could lose him to this stuff. This happens. And it can happen here. It's happening here. And so I
Taina Brown she/hers (37:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:28)
just think we have to be careful when we're talking about Israel and Zionism to be d to make that distinction of just trying of saying, like, I don't think they are the only problem or this is the problem. I think this is part of a larger problem of
Taina Brown she/hers (37:42)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:43)
Of fascism, of hatred, of what it looks like. Yeah. Because I I'm not anti-Semitic.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:44)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think what makes
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:48)
I I have but I have lost Jewish friends over this, just to be clear too. Which is hard because, you know, I've
Taina Brown she/hers (37:51)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:56)
had first of all a couple of Jewish people I know who live in Israel, who I before I had a greater and when I was still in my I don't understand geopolitics state,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:04)
not understanding that what it really meant that these folks from America had.
They were settlers, right? Like, I mean it's really
Taina Brown she/hers (38:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:11)
what that is, and not understanding that. So I'm not, I wasn't terribly upset about losing those friendships, but I've even I had a someone who I who's super progressive, lives in the US, Jewish, but feels like has bought into this idea that we hear perpetrated, which is part of the reason they do this, to scare so many people into not speaking out, because they make you
Taina Brown she/hers (38:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:32)
believe that if you speak out, if you say you're anti-Zionist, that means you're anti-Semitic.
If you speak out about
Taina Brown she/hers (38:36)
It's not the same thing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:37)
what's happening in Palestine, you're anti-Semitic. If you talk about Israel, the state of Israel, and what it does in any way that's, you know, critical, you're anti-Semitic. And that is not true. And yet it has been used historically. And this I mean, I'm I'm fessing up right here. This was that was my fear for so long. And why I was like, I just don't understand it well enough, right? Until it became to the point of like, I mean, now there's just no way I could live with myself. But for
Taina Brown she/hers (39:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:02)
a long time, I was just like, well.
I don't really understand the region. I know there's a lot of history around religion. I don't understand religion, whatever. but that does and and that fear of somebody saying, Well, you're anti-Semitic, then if you are critical of Israel. And it's just not the case. You can
Taina Brown she/hers (39:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:18)
you can love, I have still have many Jewish friends, not to use like my one black friend, but I do have many Jewish friends that I know who also are critical of Israel. Okay. So
Taina Brown she/hers (39:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not the same thing. I it's not the same thing. Zionism is a movement to create a religious ethno state. Judaism and being Jew is just not the same thing as being Zionist. And so
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:40)
Is Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:43)
Zionism is is is a political, it's a political movement. Whereas like Judaism is a religion a religious
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:49)
In ethnicity.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:51)
And ethnicity and and being Jewish is an ethnicity, right? And so it's just it it would be like saying, if saying black or saying someone is black and and and saying that they're, you know, Baptists is the same thing. Like it's not the same thing, right? It's not the same thing. So just like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:10)
Well, i and
it feels almost maybe this is a bad let me you tell me if this is a bad equation, but it'd be like saying if I'm critical of what's happening in the con in Congo or in Sudan, right? These countries where there have also been some historic genocides and continue to be. If I'm critical
Taina Brown she/hers (40:26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:28)
of them, then that is in some way saying I'm anti black, right? And that's just not the case. I can be critical.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not the same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:36)
I can by the way.
I'm critical of the United States and our government. And that doesn't mean that I don't love myself, right? Like I still love me. I can I can make a distinguish I can distinguish between
Taina Brown she/hers (40:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:48)
the actors in a nation and the people living inside that nation.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:52)
And I think there are the and in fact I know because Netanyahu's in some real hot water and trouble in his own nation, because there are many people there who still want a two-state solution. And I'm not here to get into whether a two-state solution is the right answer either.
Because that does start to get into going back, you know, who who can claim lay claim to the land and all that. And I've always had a hard time 'cause I'm like, all I think all religion is just like silly. So for me it's really hard 'cause I'm always like, I don't who
Taina Brown she/hers (41:16)
Yeah. Yeah. You can't well you can't can't claim
land based on religion, like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:21)
I know. Well, and this is so then just I don't know, we we can wrap up soon, but just to get to if you're if you're somebody who's like, I struggle with talking about this issue, I saw Al Sayed from Michigan, who because he is brown gets asked about these issues an awful lot, and because
Taina Brown she/hers (41:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:36)
he you know is anti-genocide, people make begin to make these conclusions that he's probably anti-Semitic or whatever and try to like get
Taina Brown she/hers (41:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:43)
an aha moment with him. And someone kept trying to ask him.
Does Israel have the right to exist? Now, if I'm wrong that it wasn't him, please forgive me, but I'm pretty sure it was him because I've seen him answer questions like this too. I think it was him who I saw answer it this way. And they and this is a question that people that will come up often, right? Well, do you believe Israel has a right to exist? And I love this response that was you know what? This might have been Tanah Tanahisi, how do you say his name, Coates? Tanahisi Coates? Am I saying it right? I feel like I'm not, but
Taina Brown she/hers (42:07)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:10)
am I? Okay, good. Tanahisi Coates. it might have been him who answered it this way.
Shit, if I know now, just know that somebody did. And it was really good. Because they kept asking, No, don't do
Taina Brown she/hers (42:17)
It was a brown man. It was a browner black man.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:19)
that to me. What's a proud man, but don't do that to me. I can't remember because I've heard so many people talk about these issues, okay? anyway, they said, Does Israel have a right to exist? And this person said that is that question doesn't matter. And they're like, What do you mean? He's like, Well, Israel exists, but does it have a right to exist? It doesn't matter if it has a right to exist, it exists.
Right? Like it it's it's the it's the same question to a degree of does the US have the right to exist? I mean, we're on stolen land. Do it. It's irrelevant.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:43)
Yeah. Yeah. It's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:47)
And that was his point. He kept saying it's irrelevant. It's not, it doesn't matter. It does exist. So what do we do now? And that is the question, right? It's not should it exist or not? It does exist. So now what? What is the answer? And that from there, that is where I go to a two-state solution. Right? People will get into well, should it even be there then? And it's like I
It does. It does exist. So now what? Right? Now here's where we are today.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:08)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:11)
It did it exists. So what is the answer from here? And the answer to me is we stop genocide and we stop ethnocleansing. Right. And then we say, How
Taina Brown she/hers (43:16)
Yeah, the first first things first funding the fucking genocide. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:22)
do we allow the, you know, everyone to live and to have the ability to prosper? Because let's be clear, what has been happening there's been an apartheid, which was not okay either. Genocide's not okay, but neither is what had been happening before genocide.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:35)
Four,
yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:36)
Correct.
So we need to not have an apartheid. We need to not have genocide. And we need to find a way for people to but for everyone who believes that that land is their land. And whether they believe it or not, the people who live on the land, right? Should be
Taina Brown she/hers (43:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:49)
able to live on the land. That's it. You know, in the same way that I think could we get into a long debate about land back? Yes. Right. But at the same
Taina Brown she/hers (43:56)
I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:57)
time, right now, what do we do to say that the people who live on this land should all be like?
protected and safe. And that includes those who
Taina Brown she/hers (44:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:04)
were here who had their land stolen, right? The answer is do
Taina Brown she/hers (44:07)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:07)
we just keep taking more land, giving them less, caring for them less? Or, you know, we could sit on the debate of does the US have the right to exist, and while we have that debate, continue to ethnocleanse all the Native Americans
Taina Brown she/hers (44:19)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:20)
who are here. And that's that's what happens. There's this like not in good faith debate about does Israel have a right to exist,
Taina Brown she/hers (44:25)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:26)
so that you get stuck there
And nothing is chang in fact it's changing for the worse. So
Taina Brown she/hers (44:30)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:33)
now I feel bad. I can't think of who's who's that. But I just was like, Yeah, that's it. Does it it doesn't matter if it has a right to exist, it exists. So now what?
Taina Brown she/hers (44:38)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:39)
can I say one last thing too before we go? That's not about Israel. Cause I just sent
Taina Brown she/hers (44:41)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:43)
it to you, I don't know if you saw, but Jasmine Crockett from Texas, who lost her primary to Talerico. We could, you know, get into that. But the part that I found interesting is she decided last night to go on stage with Chris Brown.
known abuser, piece of crap, and give him some congressional award and was like out there chumming with him, cheery cheering him on and like, yay, he's the best. And I just wanna say, I don't like to criticize black women in general. That's just like not my
Taina Brown she/hers (45:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:10)
place. but she is an elected official. She's a public figure. And
Taina Brown she/hers (45:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:14)
it was a pretty shitty choice.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:16)
Yeah. Yeah, it's disappointing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:17)
I just wanna be on record as saying
that's a pretty shitty choice. And again, people I think it just goes back to what you were saying about like the power corrupts and like the Democrats have sucked too. Like, yeah, they suck too. Because even the 'cause Jasmine Crockett has never been a Corey Bush. You know, like she's a black woman
Taina Brown she/hers (45:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:36)
and she's been a f you know, she's loud and a fierce fighter, but she has also she's not been like she was never part of the
the gang of whatever they call themselves, twelve or whoever they are, but like the people who are loudly anti Zionist, anti genocide, pro black, like, you know, she has not been a part of that crew and it's showing. And I just think it's that reminder for all of us to think about who are we voting in, who are we what standards
Taina Brown she/hers (46:02)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:03)
are we holding to people to, what questions are we asking? How are we pushing? Because,
I think there are people who are disappointed. And I mean I'm disappointed, but also this is what you get when you vote for people who are it's just the patriarchy and lipstick in many ways, right? Like yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:20)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's yeah, it's I and I've said this before, but it's also why like it's it's not just about having
the right number of people who look different in the room, right? It's it's gotta go deeper than that. because you just you might just end up with the same thing. And so it might for it might in the beginning it might feel different, right? It might move some things around, but once you start to get like into deeper issues, it might just be a little bit more of the same thing. So I just wanna say like
You know, you said something about like when we were talking about criticizing Zionism and how people will use the argument that that's like anti-Semitic and and it's different because Zionism is different from being Jewish or or practicing Judaism. And I feel like that happens here in the US when people criticize the US because Christian nationalism is so tied into our political system these days that as soon as like you
criticize the US, it's like, you're racist against white people, or you're like anti-where, or you're like, you're anti-US. And it's like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:26)
Or anti Christian?
Taina Brown she/hers (47:27)
or anti-Christian. And it's like, those are not the same things. So so if you're ever wondering how all that stuff over there is related to what's happening over here, there is a correlation there, right? It's the same system. It's it's functioning
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:40)
I mean, just look at the people who
Taina Brown she/hers (47:42)
the same way.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:43)
it feels so simple. I mean, they just all these people trying to all these MAGA right-wing nutjobs who were trying to keep Mom Donnie from being at the 9-11 memorial stuff because he's brown and like, you know, Muslim. And that says I mean, just the idea that in America that we are in fact a Christian nation, which is not true.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:05)
Not true.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:06)
And even if we were we're not, but like that also doesn't mean that we can that we would just that we don't we don't want him to be there. I don't I was just blown away by that. I'm by the way, I'm proud.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:17)
He showed up. He showed up and said, fuck you. I'm a New
Taina Brown she/hers (48:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:21)
Yorker and I care and also I'm the mayor of this thing. Like, good for him for showing
Taina Brown she/hers (48:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:25)
up. But like we have our own problems here, and I just do think it's really important when you're talking about Israel to not exceptionalize it and act as if
we don't also have problems. Now, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (48:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:35)
it's different, but they're all the same things in the end. It's all white supremacy. And I it well, we don't have a lot of time. We need to stop. But I will just say like it
Taina Brown she/hers (48:44)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:45)
it is still grounded in the same exact stuff.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:49)
and some folks will try to make you think it's not, and it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:52)
It is. It is. It'll all go back to the same issue.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:53)
Because you can be both you can be both
Jewish and white.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:57)
And you could be Jewish and brown.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:58)
Correct. There are people th there is this idea that you're if you are Jewish you're not white and you can be Jewish and be perceived as white.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:07)
And have the privileges that come with that.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:08)
Correct.
And I think that's just the thing that's important because guess what? Race is made up, everybody. So it's not like it's not like you're you're white because you are born certain something. It's because of how you are perceived. Race is ultimately
Taina Brown she/hers (49:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:21)
a hundred percent about perception, right? And then the privileges
Taina Brown she/hers (49:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:24)
that become that come because of perception. So whether you believe Jewish people are white or not, if you present as white and people don't know your religion and they see you, you will get the benefits of that perception. Correct.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:33)
Yeah. You're you're then you're white. For for all intents
and purposes, you're white. Because that's how people perceive you. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:38)
Yeah. And and that is and
if you look at Israel and the countries that surround it, it is hard to not see that white supremacy is also at play. So just want to put
Taina Brown she/hers (49:48)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:50)
that out there. Okay. All right. Well, this was it feels a little like walking on broken glass. Like these are always issues that get scary for people to talk about. And I want to say like you can be scared and still do it. You can be
Taina Brown she/hers (50:02)
And still
do it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:03)
You cannot know all the answers and still do it because I don't know the thousands because literally that region, there are thousands and thousands
Taina Brown she/hers (50:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:12)
of years of religious history, of political history, of all kinds of history. I don't would never begin to claim to
Taina Brown she/hers (50:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:19)
know it. You can still be learning, you can still step in it
Taina Brown she/hers (50:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:22)
and fix it, and you that does none of that excuses you from being able to say if it looks like a genocide, it smells like a genocide,
Taina Brown she/hers (50:28)
I'm not taking sides or political. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:30)
it's a genocide.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:31)
Yeah. I will say what I told a client once who was like, these conversations are getting really hard, they're getting really heavy, and I don't know if I have the energy. You don't have to sustain the conversation, but that also doesn't mean you can't engage with the conversation. Like you don't have to be the one to hold it, but you can still engage.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:51)
You don't you can choose to not be an Ed Sheeran or a Taylor Swift or the many, many, many others, and Amy Adams apparently, all those
Taina Brown she/hers (50:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:59)
who don't say it, but also aren't willing to stand in their their values. Please. And maybe
Taina Brown she/hers (51:03)
Yeah, learn from their mistakes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:07)
Ed will prove us wrong and he'll issue some sort of statement bringing Mac Macle Moore back on the tour, but I'm thinking that's not gonna happen.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:11)
I'm not holding my breath.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:12)
Me either. Wouldn't it be something if Pink decides to open for him now? boy.
put that out there as some drama. Anyway, thank you all for listening.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:22)
We'll see you guys next week.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:24)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.