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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
Louisa: Hello!
And welcome to a special S G Squared.
Pastor Steve Gladen and his guest, Doctor
Bill Donahue, recorded this episode
at this year's Lobby Gathering event.
Listen to learn how you can win
a free autographed copy of Dr.
Donahue's newly updated book.
Dr.
Donahue and Steve Gladen each have over 25
years of small group ministry experience
to encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen, and learn, together.
Speaker: Hey, everybody.
Welcome to SG Squared, Steve
Gladden on Small Groups.
But I'm not gonna be
doing all the talking.
This is-- I got my friend with me, Dr.
Bill Donahue, and we'll introduce
him in just a hot second.
But I wanna let you know that in
today's podcast, we're gonna be
doing some giveaways of, uh, Bill's
new book that is coming out, How
to Lead Life-Changing Small Groups.
He's gonna sign these books,
and we'll send them to you.
I'll give you a little bit more
information a little bit later on
how you can win one of the six copies
that we are gonna be giving away.
But first off, uh, let me just welcome,
um, my friend Bill into the studio.
Bill, thanks for joining with
us and, uh, giving us a little
bit of Bill Donahue raw.
Speaker 2: Yes.
That's exciting.
I appreciate that.
Good to be with you again, Steve.
It's good to always connect and to be at
the lobby, and it's, uh, just an amazing
group that comes together of, of people
whose passion and heart is building group
life as a means of building community,
helping people grow spiritually, doing
all the things we know that groups do.
And when I get to talk about that,
especially with you, uh, I've learned
a lot from you as well over the years,
and, uh, your team and your work So,
uh, it's fun to be here to do this.
Speaker: If you don't know Bill, if
you're a new listener and, or you may
be new to groups, it's gonna be exciting
because this is what we call the OG.
He is, uh- ⦠you know,
some of the originals.
He would be the GOAT of
small group ministry.
He has been around for, I
don't wanna say forever, 'cause
that makes us sound very old.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: it makes me sound
really, like wheel me in.
Speaker: But we know that's not true.
But there's a lot of wisdom, and
he's got numerous, numerous books.
But we're gonna focus on How to Lead
Life-Changing Small Groups, which
is just rolling out with Zondervan.
And, uh, it's just got a
lot of great information.
For those of you who are small group
pastors, this is gonna be a great
book that, uh, you will wanna give to
each one of your small group leaders.
But Bill, high level first,
talk to me about your family.
Uh, you know, you're in a life
stage of being an empty nester, but
talk to me about, you know, your,
your wife, how long you've been
married, just everything like that.
And, and make sure that Gail's
gonna like everything you say.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
No, don't let her listen.
No, that's great.
I have an amazing wife.
Uh, we're right around 38 years,
moving closer to that 40-year iconic
mark, and, uh, just have enjoyed,
uh, so much of our life together.
Worked through struggles and
challenges like every marriage does.
But we both, uh, treasure
seeing people transform.
So Gail, uh, leads, uh, a ministry called
Sacred along with her friend Joan, and
it's, uh, about, uh, doing spiritual
transformation as spiritual directors.
Mm.
So some people know of that
tradition, some people may not.
Spiritual director is someone who comes
alongside someone as they walk with Jesus.
So it's not like counseling,
it's not like coaching.
It, it has some, some overlap with a
little bit of those kinds of things.
But it's its own field.
It's, you get certified, and, and it
allows you to, uh, get some training,
especially on different kinds of
listening, and on prayer, and on a
lot of things you would wanna do to
s- with someone who really is trying
to draw closer to, to the Lord.
And for whatever reason, they're
saying, "I need to be stretched and
challenged and, and sit with someone
who can help me with this walk."
It's not prescriptive.
No one tells you what to do in that.
There are suggestions made,
there are prayers a- and so on.
So it's, again, it's a little
bit of a different field.
And, and you typically meet, uh, monthly.
Mm.
So that's she-- It's a
lot of her ministry life.
Uh, she grew up in, uh, the,
um- middle part of the world.
So I was gonna say middle part of the
country, but it's really the world.
So it's- You talking about the core
Speaker: of the planet?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
She was born in Ecuador and, and
grew, grew up in Venezuela and
then Panama in more of the in,
uh, in, uh, English-speaking area.
Yeah.
And so her parents wereâ¦
learned Spanish, of course, but were, um,
her, her dad worked for the Department of
Defense as a civilian doing mapping- Mm
⦠of up in the mountains and all that.
So it's kind of a Indiana Jones.
There's a picture of him.
He looks a lot like that.
Uh, but she grew up in
that sort of culture.
She's bilingual and, uh, brings a lot
b- you know, to the family and history
and ca- the faith there and, and then,
and, and then came up to, uh, Baylor.
Mm.
And from Baylor went to
SMU grad school for speech
pathology, did that a few years.
Just wasn't working out on
the income side of things.
It was- ⦠she was doing a
lot in l- uh, low-end schools.
I mean, like younger people and, uh, uh,
I guess all, uh, different folks, but in
that educational world, and it was like,
"How little can we, you know, pay you?"
Mm.
And, uh- Sounds like ministry ⦠she
said, "When I had trouble making my, my
car payment, I knew there was a problem."
What were you saying?
Speaker: It's kinda, kinda like ministry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
So anyway, she decided, you know,
IBM was looking for people and, um,
the interesting part of it is at
that time, they were looking for
generalists, you know- Mm ⦠looking
for people who could connect with
different parts and go serve a client.
later, after she, it going, it got to
be very specific, "This is your product.
You just l- learn only this product.
You work only in this
niche of this product."
Mm-hmm.
And that was like the,
"Uh, that's not me."
And right about then is when we get
pregnant, had Ryan, our first and on-
only son, so- Mm ⦠our oldest child.
He's 36.
My daughter is, uh, 30.
And, uh, that all happened in Dallas.
So I went down to Dallas in kind of
a mission trip connected relationship
that I won't go into the long story.
One thing after another sort of led to
meeting someone on that trip, and we
went back and forth a little bit with
letters, letters when it was over.
And I said, "Come on up to Philadelphia,
uh, you know, meet some of my friends.
I think this is gonna happen," you know.
And she had me come down to Dallas, and
so I, I came down to Dallas, changed
seminaries just to come down and marry
her, and in six weeks she dumped me.
So, but she had, through a series
of things I won't go into, bumped i-
uh, bumped into her friend Gail and
described this Bible study that I was
working with and said, "It's really neat
and it's targeted at business people."
Speaker: Hmm.
" Speaker 2: And maybe, uh, you and
some of your friends would, would,
you know, or whatever colleagues might
be interested who are Christians."
And she says, "I never
go to stuff like that.
St- I only go to stuff from my church."
I just knew the leaders in our church.
I trusted our church.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: This was a kind of
an off group, not weird too
much, but just different group.
And, um, God had a plan, as we
like to say, and it was not so much
about the group as about the two
of us finding each other there, so.
Speaker: It's so cool how God will
direct our paths, and it's so much true
through not only life and how, uh, if
you're married, how you met your spouse.
If you're not married, you know,
how you will possibly meet a
spouse if you wanna be married.
And, and it's, this is so cool, the
serendipitous, uh, dots that get
connected by God as only one could it
be, and You, you just took a tough thing
of going to be with a girl that dumps
you, but, you know, lands you with Gail
Speaker 2: Opens some doors.
Speaker: Yeah Thank, thank the Lord.
Thank you, Gail, for being there.
We- Yeah,
Speaker 2: exactly.
Speaker: We love you for that.
But-
Speaker 2: And it led into interesting
some other relationships down in
Texas that wound up being part of a
ministry that we- Mm ⦠we served
the marketplace at the time and,
and, and I got to be part of that.
And so one thing led to another.
We- I went, wind up being at the church,
you know, that she was at, Fellowship
Bible Church in the Park Cities,
and doing some volunteer work there.
And long story short was the
pastor's like, "You know what?
You, you work well with groups.
You're working on your graduate degree
in adult education, and, and you could
lead our, our, uh, adult ministries, you
know, in the sense of our classes- Mm
and the things we do there.
But our small groups pastor just left,
and I think you'd be ideal for that."
And what flashed into
my mind was, "No way."
I'm sure people who are
listening- I wonder if
Speaker: those are the exact words
you say, knowing Bill well enough.
But we'll go with no
way, but for right now.
Speaker 2: Um, it, as your head, you
know, you're sort of like, "What?"
Um, because I had this flashback
to my first small group that I led.
Had four, started with four people,
and two or three of them are really
close friends I played football with
in high school, so this is when, uh,
up in my Pennsylvania days and, uh,
where I grew up and, and had, had life.
Um, and so I invited them, and in
four weeks I was able to grow the
group from four people to one.
And I was sitting there
that fifth meeting.
Where is everybody?
These are my best friends,
and they don't come.
So, uh, I th- I think I learned that
you don't just hand out a thing that
it has fill-in-the-blank, you know,
questions on it, and tell people
if they're thirsty there's cups in
the kitchen, put it under the sink.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's
your hospitality ministry.
And, you know.
Speaker: Yeah.
It's-
Speaker 2: It was just really bumpy,
and the idea of me Even, you know,
at that time, leading something
like that and then in a church.
Mm-hmm.
You know, just a couple years after that
experience, thankfully because of Gayle
moving to Dallas, I was involved in some
really healthy, and I got, uh, groups.
I got a chance to see what is a
life-changing group all about.
Mm-hmm.
How did people live and act and treat
each other and talk and all that.
And so, uh, I kinda grew into
it, but that's kind of that
part of the story with Gayle.
Speaker: So b- before we jump into,
you know, the s- the small group
world and what, how God led you there,
uh, you know, Bill, when you look
at you from a distance, I mean, uh,
you're a doctor, you are highly- Not
Speaker 2: medical, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, not medical.
Speaker 2: Thankfully.
Speaker: I was gonna go someplace, but
podcasts live forever- ⦠so let's
not, let's not go with that humor.
Um, but you know, you're, you have
your PhD, you're highly educated,
you've written numerous books, you've
worked at some of the world-renowned
churches, you know, throughout that.
You can, you can look at your life
from a distance as perfect, and you
s- na- naturally think, you know,
family life is perfect and all that.
But tell us, you know, can you, can
you share anything about, you know,
uh, you know, your, your family time
growing up that, uh, you know, where
you might have had a struggle that, you
know, God is just, uh, God showing the
humanity of this planet with, with you
and how you're just navigating life?
Speaker 2: Yeah, in sort of my
growing up, uh, years up maybe
through, I don't know, if it was,
we were going back to pre-college
and, and all that part of family.
You know, I have one brother,
eight years older, so I was kinda
like an old ch- older child.
He went to college on a, uh, NROTC
scholarship, so in the summers
he was on a boat somewhere.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And, uh- By the time we, we
would cross paths once in a while when we
had that eight-year overlap for something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: He actually came out to
California to work for a little while.
I was still in Pennsylvania, and then he
came back in the area to try to do some
grad school and go a different direction.
Then I moved out to New York after col-
You know, it was sort of like that.
So I think this sense of kind of
a, an only child part was, yeah,
it was kind of all about me.
Mm-hmm.
And when I, I was the only one to,
quote, "perform and do well," and
when I did, I was rewarded in a- Yeah
in a very simple, good way.
But I think I learned the dynamic
of this is good and this is not.
Not that I got punished for not, but
I- Yeah ⦠I grew up as a, a kid who,
you mentioned some of this stuff, and
yeah, I've had success in certain areas.
But through my fourth, fifth grade years,
I just showed up in class for the day
of test day, you know, as like everybody
else, and I just took it and got an A.
That's just all I ever got was As.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, it sounds
like a real burden, I know.
But, uh,
Speaker: For someone who was
on the opposite spectrum of
where Bill was, you know.
So you- Yeah ⦠were the people,
you're the guys they hated.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
And what happened was in sixth
grade, there was a special new
school that was built that dealt
with two ends of the spectrum.
This was baby boomer money working.
They even put a planetarium in it.
Mm-hmm.
I was like, "What's that doing in�"
It w- it was a one-year school, and it had
like, uh, people had really high grades
and really good averages and scores-
Yeah ⦠and wouldn't be stretched, like
kind of the accelerated, they used the
term in the day, accelerated courses.
And, uh The, uh, other kinds of students
there were like Down syndrome and
learning disability, but very functional.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And what was my first
exposure to that community was either,
I think once a week, I think it was,
our recess time, we went to their
recess time- Mm ⦠and played with
them and, and hung out with them.
And that really, it affected
me in a positive way.
Mm.
But it also shows there was,
there was some, you know, lack
of exposure to some of that.
There's, umâ¦
Yeah.
A- and my, my journey of finding
out what it's like now to get a
few Cs, because that school had
all the highest-end kids in it.
Mm-hmm.
So now instead of being number one out of
20, I was number, you know, 19 out of 20.
And, uh, it took s- a
while to recover from that.
And I think all that was just sort of
a mix of what, what really is good?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What gets rewarded?
What isâ¦
You know, I used to get a quarter
for every A, you know, kind of thing.
Yeah.
And, you know, uh, but then I
would have these experiences and
think, "I, I must not be," you
know, "I don't-- Do I belong?"
Like the question- Mm ⦠we all ask in
different areas of like, "Do I belong
in this space with these other students
who are clearly MIT types mathematically
and things- Mm ⦠like that?"
Um, yeah.
So that was-- I would say that part
of my life, probably I wasn't as
aware of that's what was happening,
but that's what wa- was happening.
Speaker: Yeah.
It, it's fascinating when you talk about
this 'cause it bleeds so much through your
ministry is when you talk about what is
really good and, and for, you know, what
is really healthy might be a word- Yeah,
right ⦠we could substitute with that.
And when you're thinking that through,
you can apply that to so many things.
It could your life growing up, it's when
you're raising your children, it's when
you're-- 'cause every kid is so unique.
It also plays into the small group world,
and, uh, it's one of those things that
as we talk about groups, as we talk about
community, as we talk about life change
happens when you're in community, it's
one of the things that sometimes group
leaders have a different perspective
of what is healthy, what is good.
Is it, you know, meeting together,
you know, doing your icebreaker, doing
your study time, whether it's video
or you teaching, and then praying,
and then everyone out- is out?
Or is there more to it?
And, um, I wanna shift a little bit to-
Sure ⦠to your book Because you have-
Speaker 2: But I did wanna say real quick
Speaker: Go for
Speaker 2: it Uh, because I
mentioned them, amazing kids, um,
who too have struggled, right?
As they got to be in- Mm ⦠uh,
uh, all phases of life.
But, you know, when you
see it in your kids, right?
I know you have some of this-
Yeah ⦠a lot of this experience.
Same thing.
Yeah.
And they see them in pain, or you see
them struggling, or you see them, uh,
you know, hitting their first big walls
in life, and you realize you try to give
them this, I wouldn't say perfect world,
but you want it all to work for them.
And you know the mistakes you-
Little bubble wrap ⦠mistakes you
made and, and things you did wrong
and, and, and all that, and you try
to help them avoid some of those.
But some things they
have to experience and-
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 2: But, uh, my daughter's a
therapist, and, uh, I, I think, I know
she, she coaches, counsels people, so- Mm
uh, out of both her expertise and her
experience- Mm ⦠and, uh, uh, the things
she's had to walk through in, in life.
A- as my son, he works with a
company that's all remote, uh,
in, in, in, in a field that he's,
uh, in and working in right now.
But, um, you know, to find that place
that he felt good about himself in.
Mm.
A couple other things.
He tried internships, he tried
some other things, some in
churches, some in, you know.
And there were bumps there.
And- Yeah ⦠this thing that your family
kinda grows up around 'cause they're
on staff or Gayle served a- as an, an
elder at Willow Uh, but, uh, that sense
of going to Christian school and all
these things, you know, it's like not
trying to create a bubble, but thinking
this is the best experience, you know,
they can have, and realizing they just
have to determine what some of that
experience is as they get older and as
they engage hard truths and, and all that.
So they're wonderful.
We just had everybody over
the house for Mother's Day.
We had the greatest time.
Mm.
We ha- we have a great community.
We could be a really, and we
are when, when we're all around
the table, a great small group.
And not, you know, in any technical way.
Agreed.
It's just hearts are open, we're laughing.
Sometimes there's tears.
Uh, you know, uh, I'm really grateful for
one of those primary places, um, is, is
my, is my family when we can get together.
Mm-hmm.
And we're kinda, we're, we're
close enough to do that.
And, um, they were sending me a
few things about being out here.
"Hey.
Oh, another podcast?
Oh, great.
That's great.
You're getting to share about your book.
Man, we're praying for you, Dad.
We love you," and all these things.
So yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
I didn't wanna forget that.
No, thanks for going there too- Yeah
⦠because it is, you know, we, we try to
help our kids do as best as possible.
When I got to know you, your, I mean,
your kids are in their mid-30s, but they
were just like, you know, just little
ones, single-digit numbers of little kids.
Yeah.
And we didn't even have kids at the time.
And so, but when you grow up and
you experience bumps, it's so often
you're trying to tell God, "Hey,
God, I'm, I'm on your team, you know.
Make everything perfect."
And it's not that way.
There's- Sure,
Speaker 2: and that means perfect
or best when you said you're
trying to do the best for them.
What is the best for them?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And in the various stages
of when are you letting go and when are
you still putting a little guardrail
here or a little c- coaching there.
Mm-hmm.
And when are they starting to coach you?
I felt my, my kids, you know, many
ways more like friends now obviously
to me, and people that are willing to
speak truth and express love and, you
know, that's the exciting part of it.
It's never perfect.
I'm never perfect, I'll tell you that.
Speaker: It,
Speaker 2: it is that- But it is
that dynamic that forms that you can
say, "Wow," you know, I'm reallyâ¦
When they, they, they leave, you
know, when we're all together,
they're-- And I go I can spend
more time with them, you know?
Speaker: It is-
Speaker 2: Not like, "Well, that's good.
I don't have to spend
time with them" It, it
Speaker: is so tough when you just
said when they coach you, and I can
remember that I just went through a, a,
a career change or a job change going
from, uh, Saddleback to Pine Lake.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker: And it is one of those things
where, you know, I kept telling my son
all the time, you know, "God's playbook
is simple, just trust and obey."
And when we were going through a
tough time, he goes, "Isn't this
just simple, like trust and obey?"
And it's like, it hits you
right back in the face.
But- Right.
Hey, we're with Dr.
Bill Donahue.
We're having, uh, way too much fun.
This is Bill Donahue Raw.
And if you know Bill, if you know me,
uh, it's, it's one of those things
where, uh, getting Bill on a raw stage,
you know, with no script, no nothing,
that's when the real gold comes out.
Oh, okay.
Although you can read about it.
Is
Speaker 2: that what Iâ¦
Okay.
Speaker: That, that's what's happening.
It, uhâ¦
But, you know, when you read his
books, you'll see another form of, uh,
the, the riches that he has to offer.
His new book's coming out, How to Lead
Life-Changing Small Groups, and, uh,
it's w- more from the perspective of
the small group leader, correct, Bill?
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
It's, it's targeted at that, that those of
you just roll up your sleeves, you know,
every week or month or two weeks, how
often you do it, and get a group of people
together and, and seek to, to grow in
their faith and bring their cares and woes
as well as their successes and, and so on.
Yeah, and just how toâ¦
But then s- what some of, what are some
of the skills and things you need there,
and what are some of the things to
focus on that helps that group do well?
Uh, it's not just shooting from
the hip, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
We're gonna be giving away
six copies of the book.
Bill's gonna sign them.
Uh, he's probably not gonna write a letter
to you, but he will be signing the books
and with that, and, uh, we'll be, uh, sh-
giving you a little bit more instruction
on how to win those copies of the book
just a little bit later in the podcast.
But Bill, let's, let's switch to the book.
, " Speaker 3: How to Lead a
Life-Changing Small Group."
Excited for this as
we're talking about this.
Bill, what, what are some of the
things that you feel small group
leaders go through that, uh, will,
where this book will help them?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Uh, uh, I think there's a number.
I think you think of what are
the challenges, and not only
those, I think opportunities.
This book, I think helps in two ways.
One would be the challenges.
Hey, this is starting to, to emerge,
you know, in the circle I'm in, or
I'm a new leader and I'm just kind of
getting started, and I'm trying to just
put that, that meeting time together.
How much time on this?
And are we gonna have enough time
to do some scripture engagement?
Or what, whatâ¦
You know, different groups may have
different focuses as far as percentage
of time devoted to certain things.
Uh, and so there are tools in there, and
resources, and examples, and places people
can go, for example, just to get, generate
either lighthearted, kind of open up your
life a little bit, uh, like we did at the
beginning of this, uh, kind of discussion.
Mm.
And then deeper things, uh You
know, it, it, it, what, what's the
character of God you think of most
when you think of quote, "God"?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: Right away people might
say grace, or they might say truth,
or they might say disappointment.
And you go, "Whoa."
Yeah.
"What," you know, "What's that?"
And then it's like, "Well,
that's where I'm at right now.
I'm doing a lot of wrestling
with God right now," or whatever.
So, so it can cons- help people step
into spaces to shape the discussions
and the prayers and things in a way
that gives them something to work
with, but is truthful to the culture
that that group is experiencing.
Mm-hmm.
The other side is the opportunities.
"Hey, I have an idea I wish I could get."
Oh, there's a whole section on
those kinds of fun icebreakers-
Mm-hmm ⦠and discussion start.
Oh, there's a whole section on conflict.
Matter of fact, we devoted
a, a chapter to it.
The, uh, editor said, "Bill, you
got so much in this, it's making it
double wide in the previous chapter.
So let's, uh, if you're open to it,
can we cut it in half and do these five
things that are how I reframed everybody?
So let's move that big section
over to its own chapter."
And looking back, that was a great
call they made because, again, they're
seeing it with their fresh eyes.
I've been looking at it for a
lot of years of different things.
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, the sense of, yeah, there's
some real different ways people talk
about it and models, and I think
David Osberg has a little thing in
there, and I think there's others
that are quoted in the resources area.
But just how do you step into this
very hard part at, at times with groups
'cause we're gonna-- we all hit 'em just
like we do in all relationships, right?
Yeah.
So it's also kind of a got
some problem-solving and-
Mm-hmm ⦠challenging things, uh,
opened up for people to look at.
We spend some time also,
and just some fresh things.
Not so much that this is the handbook
on that, but I felt like over the last,
you know, decade or two, obviously with,
with COVID, with more things getting-
Speaker 3: Politicized
Speaker 4: uh, yeah, distance o- kind of
oriented and, and, and the necessity for
online sort of experiences in groups.
Mm-hmm.
And so just put some, uh, some things
in there that I've learned from
others, a lo- a little bit things
I've learned in some of the teams
and groups I've worked with online.
But, uh, I think those who've
either had to experience that-
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
Speaker 4: or use it as an option for
when a lot of people are traveling
or, or some folks are away, we
can bring 'em in vis-a-vis that.
Mm.
And they're in the room, and it's
a real live meeting still, but they
may be over in Europe somewhere,
and they're participating, you know.
Yeah.
It has that positive, uh, aspect.
But what does that also
have as a downside?
Yeah.
And so we look at some things
like that that are fresh and new,
Speaker 3: so.
So there, uh, for those of you that
don't have the book yet, it, it's
got each chapter just has a, a phase
that your groups go through that you
could learn so many different pieces.
You know, Bill mentioned conflict,
and so often it's scary to go towards
conflict, but you know you can grow and
be healthy in so many different ways.
But Bill, um, what, what coaching would
you give to maybe a new small group
leader and maybe a veteran small group
leader that would, would help them out?
Speaker 4: Um, just in general?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I think, uh The thing that
I think can help, I think, any
leader out is, you know, one word
comes to mind is preparation.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I remember a phase
in my life, I was very busy.
I was leading a group.
It was a long time ago, and it was
like I was driving to the meeting,
and on my lap was the study guide.
And every time there was a stop sign
or a red light, I read and probably
put a couple notes in and, you
know, I just didn't put sometimes
much, much thought and was shooting
from the hip and kinda winging it.
I think, um, it's not about preparation
trying to make it perfect, but I
think you wanna make it personal.
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 4: You wanna make it a way, say,
"Will people experience God in this?"
Or, "Will we just have fun in this part?"
And I'm kinda prompting that or-
Yeah ⦠uh, and, and, and so
that, that sense of preparation.
Second is shared ownership, even if
it's not shared leadership yet- Mm
but shared ownership.
And I know your model really
leads into that at Saddleback.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But the idea that people
can step in and have a role, so to
speak, or some area of responsibility-
Yeah ⦠that they think about.
They're not just sitting there letting
you come up with all the ideas.
It's, it's spread out that way, and I
think that kinda level of participation,
uh, allows people to go, "Yeah, okay."
And, and, and to coach them,
that's a good word you used.
Say, "Hey, we'll connect during
the week, and we'll come up with
a good question about that."
Maybe even find a way to process it.
We may wanna break up into
smaller little groups of three.
We may wanna, you knowâ¦
And again, this is a
place where we go online.
That's gonna look a little
different, but can be done.
Yeah.
Put people in chat rooms and-
Yeah ⦠and things like that.
But, um, you know, just the combination
of, of that, uh, sort of being ready for,
and then inviting as much participation
as, as possible, and then giving feedback
to each other- Yeah ⦠about that.
And so that we all grow in our ability
just to be better people and to grow
better and to learn relationships.
Oh, and by the way-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker 4: uh, grow in Christ and maybe,
and you're maybe as a leader starting
to look across the room and going, "Boy,
this person," not just 'cause of their
answers, but just their way about them- Mm
the way they talk to people.
They might be, uh, someone someday.
Uh, so those are the things I say,
whether you're just starting out or
whether you've been around the block.
Sometimes when you're around the
block a lot, you figure, "You know,
I've been around the block a lot."
Yeah.
"I know how this r- goes."
It gets sloppy.
And you miss, yeah, you miss, uh,
creativity and some opportunities
there, and that's why the shared
leadership piece jumps in a little bit.
If you have a partner and you say,
"Hey, let's brainstorm f- about, you
know, this, what we wanna talk about,"
what the, whether it's a theme or a
curriculum or whatever, and you get
some feedback about it or you get some
input and you go, "Wow, I would, never
would've thought of that by myself," so.
Speaker 3: When you talk about in the
book, uh, you know, measuring group
progress- Mm ⦠is there a, is there
a piece that comes to your mind about
what, what you are measuring and
what you are seeing with individuals?
I know that, uh, you know, there's many
different avenues you can go with that.
I know that with, um, you know, we
always are sharing with group leaders,
and you're not trying to guilt them to
saying Hey, I've got, you know, nine souls
or as you said, four souls and you're,
you're first one as a group leader when
you're, uh, when you're dealing with,
you know, you're, you're starting a
group and you're, you're feeling nervous.
You're feeling, you know, "What do I do?"
I, I love the first part of this
book on how it'll guide you through
the, through those awkward, bumpy
things with you leading a group.
But you're also at a point,
too, where there's some biblical
responsibilities, too, because you,
you have these, these souls with you.
And I, and I love how you're always
stating, you know, you don't have
to be perfect but you need to be
personal 'cause that will help
you have the stuff that you need.
But are there some things that you would
wanna say to those that are maybe leading
a group or even to a small group point
person who's navigating the groups?
And churches are always trying to say,
you know, you know, "What's the progress?"
And so- Right ⦠often progress is
built on how many groups do you have?
And- Right.
Speaker 4: Sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah ⦠and that's
a sometimes can be a very much a
Speaker 4: false positive.
You must be really good at it 'cause
wow, they're really adding more, but
then you see the kind of group, right?
Yes.
That's, and you realize I have
a different way of measuring.
Sure.
And that's, I'm glad you brought that
up because in earlier editions of the
book, we tapped it, uh, did a little
bit, but I think it opened that up a
little more and I'm actually turning
to the page 'cause I don't have all
the verses memorized and all the
wa- you know, kinds of things in it.
Bill,
Speaker 3: I'm so disappointed that you
don't have the whole Bible memorized.
I mean, you, you were my,
my go-to all the time.
I
Speaker 4: know.
That's, uh, that's a shame.
Um, but just the general
value of feedback.
I put a little section in there and I,
I mentioned Sheila Heen and, and her,
uh, co-, uh, worker together wrote, uh,
a book called "Thanks for the Feedback."
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 4: And they, they really
talk about is the idea in what,
what gives you an openness to both
giving and receiving feedback.
And they talk about, uh, sometimes
we don't want to get, or it's hard
for us to receive it, and they pick
two or three areas out, and I don't
need to do a teaching session here.
But they certainly ha- have one
area of it is just the person.
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 4: Who it's from.
It, it could be from you, Steve, and I
go, "Wow, it's this, this is wise Steve
who's led this ministry and all that,"
and I'm-- You're maybe saying some
things to me and I'm kinda taking it
and giving, so thanks for sharing that.
But if I was across the room with
Larry or Susan- ⦠who said the
exact same words, you know, "Could
we do this a little different in
the group next time we do it?"
You know, whatever.
Yeah.
And there's a part of you
that says, "Sure," and then
you think, "Loser," you know?
But, uh- Not, not really, but,
uh, there's that, that piece.
The other part they talk about, um, is,
uh, the identity that you have with it.
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 4: Uh, there's the, the,
the Um, like this is my baby.
Yeah.
You know, this is, this is me.
Yeah.
So this, this thing I put
together, why wouldn't you like it?
You know?
Mm-hmm.
I spent this time, I organized- Mm-hmm.
Especially if they say it to a leader
who spent maybe, you know, a good
amount of time on preparing and getting
a lesson ready from a s- a source and
thinking about where can we connect
relationally and all those things.
Uh, and then someone comes in and
basically disagrees with them on, on
every point or- Yeah ⦠this, this
c- the discussion gets hijacked-
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
⦠Speaker 4: you know, a little bit, and
others are starting to do some things
that actually you want them to do, but
it was in the middle of your thing, so
you can only see the dark side of that.
Yeah.
You know, right?
And so sh- she talks about
how that is, a- again, notâ¦
That, that's a barrier- Yeah ⦠to
you, the, the actual, uh, s- situation.
And then, um, she talks-- I
think there was a third one
about Of, uh, yeah, the idea of
confronting it, uh, these triggers.
There are truth triggers,
relationship we talked about
triggers, and identity triggers.
So some is truth trigger.
I'm just telling you the truth.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm just saying a plane
landed on a, at the airport.
Yeah.
I, I'm not telling you I
like the plane or anything.
But when people have a trigger around
something related probably to you or to
it, the system we're- Mm-hmm ⦠working
in, we right away go to that trigger
that just says, "Oh, uh, you know,
that, that's just maybe your truth."
And then so people go, "Yeah, well,
the Bible says this," and they pick
the verse that works for them, and-
Yeah ⦠all of a sudden we're off track.
And she just warns against how we can
drift into these triggers that get us
into these spaces that aren't healthy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And, um, so, so
how do you me- measure them?
What, what is healthy?
You've mentioned that word.
Yeah.
It's a great word, and I, we- Typical
categories you can start with,
especially if you're a newer leader,
is just qualitative and quantitative.
You know, what are the,
what's the hard data?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: Are people
showing up at meetings?
Or-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker 4: you know, i- if we agree
we wanna do a little reading ahead
of time, and we don't, you know,
it's just we, we, we know that.
It's just a fact.
Yeah.
No one hates anything.
It's just what it is.
So you do things like how many
members are in the group, meeting
times, location, you know, materials.
Are we using things that are helpful?
Are we accomplishing our mission-
Yeah ⦠as we do it for our group
and as it connects to our church?
You know, those are things that are s-
very straightforward, more tactical.
The qual- the more, uh, qualitative ones
would be things around relationships.
How do we process conflict
and disagreements?
When, when I might be observing that
as a leader and I see some people
that are clearly a little edge there
going on, how's that being done?
Is it done in a way
that's a little spiteful?
Does it have an edge?
Mm-hmm.
Is it sarcastic on the outside,
but really deep down you can tell
this person's not liking the one
they're- Yeah ⦠sitting next to?
So maybe they need some work there.
But it's those soft areas that can
easily get damaged and bruised.
Um, so the way-- A, another way to
think about it is what's happening
inside the circle and what's
happening outside the circle.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So inside the circle is
just kind of stuff we were just talking
about, that quantitative, qualitative.
Is, is, are we doing certain
things that we can sort of measure?
And then are we doing things that are
more about the tone, the culture of the
group, the relationships in the group?
Uh, are we experienced the presence of
Christ, and what's that like when it hap-
What's, what's that feel like when weâ¦
You know, people might say,
"Yes, I feel the aura."
It's like, "Talk about that.
How is that happening here?
When do you sense it?"
And really getting into that qualitative
makes you feel like, "I'm glad to
hear that," not just only the numbers.
Numbers are important.
Yeah.
They tell a story.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 4: They don't tell the only story.
Speaker 3: But so often a church will
focus on one side or the other side.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Right.
Speaker 3: And more on the numbers side
than what, what's going on in the circle.
Easier to
Speaker 4: count.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
It's, it's an easier route
to go, but you can do that.
You know- But
Speaker 4: yeah.
So anyway, I'm sorry.
I just was, uh, y- wanted to, to do
outside was more Uh, exactly that.
How does our group have any
impact beyond this circle?
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 4: It should have it within,
and it kind of should have it without,
depending on, again, purpose of the
group and ways that could take place.
But, you know, to really roll up our
sleeves and go, "Okay, are we, are we,
uh, uh, answering our call to," again,
whatever it might be, influence either
in one-on-one situations, living our
normal lives every, uh, every day.
Like we say at our church, the
weekend e-event is not the main event.
Speaker 3: Um,
Speaker 4: our everyday
lives is the main event.
That's the thing- Mm-hmm ⦠we're
living in every day, and it's the
same kind of thing in a group.
It's that That culture I take out
of that circle into the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And, uh, not in
any pushy way or anything.
It's just being attentive to that.
And that's harder to train, harder
to practice- Mm-hmm ⦠than it
is to just, uh, you know, say we
memorized our key verse this month.
Yeah.
Which is a good thing, you know, but yeah.
Speaker 3: So wanna real-
really encourage you.
You, you may be leading a
small group ministry or you
may be leading a small group.
Obviously, this book is geared a little
bit more on how to, how the group
leader can be bolstered and, and, uh,
helped out in so many different ways.
But th- this book, "How to Lead a
Life-Changing Small Group," you could
also, from a small group leader point
of view, which I tend to run in that,
that lane a little bit more, this book
is valuable for you because you've
gotta interface with your coaches or
your small group leaders, and this book
will give you plenty of tips on how to
make that experience far more better.
I want you guys to have a copy of this
book, and even better, uh, Bill has
been gracious enough to donate six to
the cause of the Small Group Network.
If you wanna email me at
steve@smallgroupnetwork.com,
if you are the first person to say, "I
want Bill's book," and if you are the
first, third, fifth, seventh, ninth
person, or the 11th person, we'll go
the odd numbers right now, uh, you can
get a copy of Bill's book for free.
It's gonna be signed by Bill Donahue
himself, and you just give me an address
where we can send it to, anyplace on
the planet, we will send it to you.
But, uh, so appreciate you, Bill.
I appreciate the decades and decades
and decades of life, uh, being
with you and, uh, your ministry.
Uh, there's so many great
books you've written.
Do you have, uh, any closing thoughts you
wanna say to those that are listening?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Hmm.
I think, uh, and this is not to sort of be
coy with this, uh, or overly simplistic,
but someone asked me a, a similar question
yesterday, and I s- you know, it was
sort of like we have all these struggles
and challenges at the end of the day.
You know, w- w- the question
was sort of about w- what do
you, what do you focus on?
And I think they were thinking
strategically or, or, or
other, other kind of things.
Should I do more of this
or less of that, and so on.
Mm-hmm.
And I remember getting this
from others through the years.
And I would say love, love.
The answer is love.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, love your people.
Love your people that are shepherding
you, love the people you're shepherding,
love the people, uh, in your life and
in the sphere of your, your world.
But when you love and seek to
genuinely love, and that takes work,
uh, I am trying to work on that.
Yeah.
Uh, be better lover.
Better lovers.
You know, I always ask this
question in a group, in a con- in a
conference sometimes or a workshop.
I'd say, uh, "Hey, tell you what.
Little icebreaker kickoff.
I want you to fill in a blank.
It's called leaders are blank.
I'll give you 30 seconds."
Right?
So just pick a couple words, but, and
then I'd ask them to raise their hand.
Strategic, you know, uh, called by
God, and then, you know, all these, you
know, things that were definitely true.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: No one ever would say lovers.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, and, and, you know,
that's a mirror thing too, right?
Always looking, is that really the thing
I, when I walk out of the room or when
I walk away from a conversation, did I
really think about how to love this person
better and share that love and model
that love, or had that was my agenda?
And that too often that's true.
Uh, is my agenda, did it take over?
And so I'd just say, you know, wherever
you are on the trail, you know, pause
and say, "How would it be to show love
to either directly to this person or to
those around this person or in our group
in a way that not only can I express
it, but remember I'm modeling it?"
And that younger leaders and even
group members, of course, are, um Kind
of checking boxes on things, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's kind of a come back to,
and Jesus does in the John 17
when he prays, John 13 through 17.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And he starts with love,
you know, early in the, in, and he
talks about, uh, "This is how you'll
know you're my disciples," right?
Yeah.
"And a new command I give
you is to love one another."
And you know, the new part as we
know is, "As I have loved you."
Oh, that's a pretty high standard.
Uh, but at the end, it's the last
thing he covers in the prayer.
"I want them to have the glory,
Father- Yeah ⦠you and I have.
I want them to have the
truth that you and I have.
I want them to have the
love that you and I have."
And so you look at the love
of the Father and the Son.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a high standard, but that's,
that's I think a thing that we can always
back up and say, "I can work on that."
Yeah.
We can talk about that,
and we can pray about that.
Uh, we're better listeners
when we're lovers.
We're better learners when
we're lovers, all those things.
So, uh, that's where I would
Speaker 3: maybe leave it.
Hey, what a po- a powerful word.
I mean, uh, you know, I'm glad you didn't
do an altar call 'cause I'd have to raise,
raise my hand- Well- ⦠and say, "Oh"
⦠Speaker 4: anyone that knows me
listening to me knows I'm working
on the learning side of this.
Uh, I don't have this on like- But- ⦠I
didn't just check that box 20 years ago.
Like-
Speaker 3: But how great that
each one of us would want that.
If someone said, "You know, Steve
Gladen is blank," fill in the blank.
You know- Yeah ⦠fill in the person
Speaker 4: is- But I have a
person that talks too much.
What do I do?
Yeah.
Well, first love them.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And they look
at you like, "Seriously?"
Yeah.
Speaker 3: There's a lot in there, but
anyways, hope you enjoyed this time.
Uh, I love this guy.
He's, he obviously has tons of
books that you can Google and, uh,
you know, find out more about the
resources that he has with that.
But his new book out, "How
to Lead a Life-Changing Small
Group" is, is available.
It'd be something that you
definitely would love to give to
each one of your leaders that are,
you know, handling your groups.
But also for you, the point person,
I'd really encourage you to read it
and use the principles in there to make
better leaders and make better coaches.
We're giving away six copies.
Email steve@smallgroupnetwork.com,
and we'll take the on the odds one,
three, five, seven, nine, and 11.
We'll take those people.
You give us an address,
we'll send it to you.
And, uh, we love you guys.
Thanks for joining us here.
We're in the lobby, or our lobby
event, and, uh, it's just been great
to have, you know, you here with
us, Bill, and blessing the people.
And just thanks so much,
and God bless everybody.
Yeah.
Speaker 4: Thanks.
Louisa: Thank you for listening!
And don't forget to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you'd like to go deeper and get
more resources or join the small
group network, just head over
to small group network dot com.
We'll see you next time!