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If you, or someone you know, is suffering from PTSD, you don't need to suffer in silence. If you are experiencing a mental health emergency, call 911 and ask for assistance.
https://www.legion.ca/support-for-veterans/mental-health-ptsd
https://www.mentalhelp.net/ptsd/hotline/
Brief Summary of Show:
In this episode of The Silvercore Podcast, Travis speaks with Todd Hisey, who is the Canadian combat veteran and founder of the Alberta Veteran Hunters that takes veterans and first responders suffering from PTSD and provides them with a positive experience and a supportive group.
Todd speaks on his experiences in the military and what lead him to being diagnosed with PTSD, the social stigma of having PTSD, his treatment and his personal advise for others who may be suffering from the same. Todd also explains how The Veteran Hunters got started and the positive impact they are having.
If you have a story that would be of value to the Silvercore audience, or know someone who does, email us at podcast@silvercore.ca. We would love to hear from you!
Sitka's video "A Place of Peace" as mentioned in the the podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVK7v7-JUAU
Topics discussed in this episode:
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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
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I'm Travis Bader
and this is The
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liability insurance,
to make sure you are
properly covered during
your outdoors adventures.
Today, I'm remotely
recording online with
Todd Hisey, Canadian
combat veteran and
founder of Veteran
Hunters in Alberta.
Veteran Hunters takes
veterans and first
responders suffering
from PTSD and provides
them with a positive
experience and a
supportive group.
So Todd, you and I spoke
earlier and the value
that we're hoping to
bring to our listeners
here is we're hoping
to talk about mental
health and PTSD from
your perspective.
Your journey that
brought you to the
inception of Veteran
Hunters and what Veteran
Hunters is and does.
So Todd, welcome to
The Silvercore Podcast.
Travis, thanks for having
me on and making time for
this important issue with
respect to mental health
and particular mental
health in veterans,
and first responders.
You served in the
Canadian military
for some time and
you're open a boat
suffering from PTSD.
Can you tell me a
little bit about PTSD?
Can you educate me and
the listeners about,
at least from your
perspective, PTSD?
Sure.
So I'll just talk a
little bit about my
experience and how
I ended up getting
diagnosed with with PTSD.
So I served for a
total of 22 years in
the Canadian army.
Mostly with the First
Battalion Princess
Patricia's Canadian Light
Infantry, just a little
plug for the Patricia's.
So yeah, no, graduated
the royal military
college, served in
both the regular
rounds reserve army.
Like I said, for 22
years, 15 of that on
full-time service, served
overseas, three times.
It was in my Kosovo tour
in 1999 that unbeknownst
to me that, when I got
home, I was actually
starting to suffer the
early effects of PTSD.
And then in 2001, I
decided to leave the
Canadian military and
really it was the fight
or flight aspects of
PTSD that were causing
me to have, unbeknownst
to me, mental health
issues at that time.
And I left the Canadian
army the first time
and the medical system
actually in my departure,
medical actually knew
I had PTSD and actually
withheld it from me.
In fact, wrote in the
margins, on my medical
records, that I had
PTSD where I not getting
out, they would have
been treating me for it.
And then they went so
far, is that when I
requested copies of my
medical records later,
they actually redacted
those portions, so
that I didn't even
know that I had it.
Crazy.
Yeah.
So, and I'm not
the only one that's
had this happen to.
It's been, it's an
ongoing issue with
the Canadian forces in
particular, a lot of
issues that came out of
the former Yugoslavia
where medical conditions
or periods of time were
actually completely
wiped clean of military
records, so that's
a whole other story.
But in my case, it was my
medical records that were
kept kind of from me.
I got back in 2007,
got a letter from the
Canadian army, asking
me to come back with
the war in Afghanistan.
Didn't deploy to
Afghanistan largely
because they started to,
I and others, started
to figure out that there
was probably something
wrong with my mental
health at the time.
Hmm.
That started kind
of the long process
towards a treatment.
It was actually a
civilian mental health
practitioner who was
working with soldiers
in another practice who
was very interested in
my military service.
And he kind of put
two and two together
and said, hey, I
think you have PTSD.
And I was like, okay.
So he encouraged me to
put in an application
to Veterans Affairs for
some kind of operational
stress injury.
At that time then the
Canadian army didn't
need me anymore.
We were winding down from
our tours in Afghanistan.
So I transitioned to
a job with oil and gas
in Calgary and ended
up getting put into
the operational stress
injury clinic here in
Calgary and was one
of the early intakes.
And they diagnosed me
with PTSD and I started
the next six and a half
years of treatment.
In 2014 I was laid
off for the oil and
gas and that kind of
started the big downturn
here in Alberta with
respect to oil and gas.
But I had a couple
of different things
that were going on
at the same time.
So one, I was being
treated for my PTSD
and in my case,
my PTSD didn't
necessarily a result
from being shot at.
I was in a helicopter
in Kosovo, took five,
five rounds from a
12.7 up into the belly.
We'd have little
kids that would throw
firecrackers at us
with, you know, pieces
of metal attached
to it, et cetera.
I previously served in
Bosnia and one of the
things that I'd been
responsible for was doing
the intelligence prep for
battle going into Kosovo.
Which we were sent into
an area that had the bulk
of the issues relating to
the genocides in Kosovo.
But also one of the
things we, for those
of us who had already
been in the form of
Yugoslavia, we kind
of had generalized
culturally that they
were going to be, the
Kosovor's were going to
be very similar to the
Bosniaks or the Croats
or the Serb's that we,
that we had dealt with.
And I was sorely sorely
mistaken on that one.
I had actually in
preparation to go over,
I'd actually found a
German officer's diary
and he'd served, in
Kosovo and a lot of the
issues that he talked
about logistically,
and then culturally
with the locals we
actually encountered
like decades later.
And we ran into all
the same issues.
So one of the things I
found challenging over
there was in the 1990s
and going into early
2000, the Canadian
military or Canadian
army was still very, you
know, very political,
senior leadership
was very hesitant
to make decisions.
You know, we used to have
a saying where, you know,
a better to be judged by
12 then carried by six.
When the reality is,
was, it was actually
better to be carried
by six than to attend,
to be judged by 12.
And so we had a very
gun shy leadership.
So when we went into
Kosovo, the federal
government at the
time, the liberal
government had restricted
the number of guys
that we could take.
So we had a battle
group of just over 600.
Now, when I went in
there, I had seven jobs
and no staff to do it
because of the numbers.
So I worked six months,
19 hour days, the five
hours that I did get
to sleep we're not
a consecutive and so
basically when you're
sleep deprived, your
ability to make sound
mental decisions or
your brain's ability
to cope with stress
is greatly reduced.
Sure.
So couple that with
leadership that is
not making decisions,
my bosses would
not make decisions.
So really it was left
to me and two other
captains to pretty much
run this battle group.
And as a result, we
ended up basically
getting PTSD as well
as our careers ended
up getting sacrificed
because of it, but it
was to do, but we did the
right thing, you know?
So I ain't, so the
attributes of my
PTSD is I have issues
with authority.
I have issues, so I
have anxiety, I have
anger management issues.
So I could go on.
There's about six
different attributes
of PTSD that I have
and they classified
my PTSD is one of the
most severe that they
had seen at the time.
Plus what made it
more severe was that I
went, you know, almost
15 years undiagnosed
and untreated.
Right.
So in 2014, when I got
laid off and was in
treatment, what I was
doing with Veterans
Affairs was I was, I'd
been in a seven year
battle I'll use those
terms appropriately
battle with the mid-level
management within
Veterans Affairs, and
then including my member
of parliament, Blake
Richards, and his staff,
they were struggling
to try and get into
Veterans Affairs to
look at, because of my
PTSD diagnosis, it was
like largely believed
that, if I got my PTSD
from Kosovo in 99, and
I had to release medical
in 2001, you know.
Ahh, that game.
Yeah.
That game.
So should I have been
medically released.
So long story short, just
so happens, a total God
thing I tell people, I
happened to call into
a local radio station
here in the Calgary
area and Daniel Smith at
the time was the host.
And she had Kent Hare who
was the new minister of
Veterans Affairs on there
and this was in 2014.
So I hadn't been getting
any funding yet from
Veterans Affairs, so
I'm on air with him and
I'm bawling my eyes out.
I'd burned through
like a hundred thousand
dollars of my life
savings, trying to
support my family and
I after getting laid
off with oil and gas.
My treatment was in was
in question because I'm
trying to find jobs.
And he basically, I put
him on the spot and he
had no choice, but to
say, hey, you know what,
we're going to help you.
We're going to go off
air, he says, I'm going
to give you my executive
assistance, phone number,
you're going to call her
tomorrow and he says.
Wow.
We'll take it from there.
And really, and he
did follow through.
Wow.
He ended up organizing
a meeting with the
current Minister of
National Defence.
Interesting
enough, we served
together in Bosnia.
Himself, my member of
parliament and then he,
basically told a bunch of
generals to go on redact
my medical files and they
had a meeting in Ottawa
and it basically, it was
a holy crap, when they
saw what was written.
And it was basically
flood gates opened up,
you know, put me in
a rehabilitation or
retraining program.
At the time, put
me on the earnings
loss program, they
were likely facing a
massive lawsuit if they
didn't do something.
But that was a
lengthy battle, that
took seven years to
get to that moment.
And that doesn't
help PTSD.
No it doesn't.
And that's one of the
issues and we can talk
about that a little
bit more when we talk
about specifically about
the Veteran Hunters.
But you know, a lot
of guys are not in a
frame of mind to be
able to deal with a
massive bureaucracy that
is Veterans Affairs.
Right.
And I had, and I worked
briefly for Parks Canada
for about three months.
That was in an attempt
for Veterans Affairs
for me to see if I could
get reintegrated back
into the workplace.
And my boss there
had been a director
in Veterans Affairs
for coming over
to Parks Canada.
And she told me, she
said, you know, the issue
was middle-management
and Veterans Affairs
is that right?
So Veterans Affairs is
completely managed out of
Prince Edward Island and
it's staffed by people
in Prince Edward Islands.
So she goes, the issue
is, is that the people
from PEI who have jobs
with VAC, look at the
issues and go, well, I
have 20 years to resolve
this issue because they
just look at it as a job.
Right.
But a veteran, we
don't have 20 years.
No, you don't.
Some of us might not
be here next week, let
alone 20 years from now
and we have families
and different things.
And so it was when I
saw that, I was like,
Whoa, you know, that's
why some of us take
seven years dealing
with these guys and or,
you know, I have other
injuries, you know, like
being in the infantry
is really, it's like
playing on a pro football
team without padding.
Mhmm.
That's what I
tell people.
And we suffer like,
you know, I tore my
lisfranc ligament, and
if you look that up,
that's a common NFL
injury that's usually a
casting for eight weeks.
Well, I wrapped it
with a tensor bandage
and took a bottle of
aspirin and kept going.
And that resulted
in the knee left
knee and hip issues.
And I went to three
hearings on those,
but was successful.
So one of the things that
I found was good was all
of these struggles that I
went through really helps
me relate with veterans.
CAuse I've gone through
many cases, it's taken
me longer and through
more challenges to
get the benefits
that I have today.
And so that puts me in a
position where, when I'm
working one-on-one with
veterans or talking to
guys through our social
media or we're just
happen to be out hunting
with the Veteran Hunters.
It helps me better
relate with guys and
then and I hope my
experiences are able to
encourage other guys.
So that they go well, you
know, Todd went through
way more than what I'm
currently going through
so hopefully we can
inspire and encourage
other veterans to just
stick with the fight.
Suicide has been
a huge issue.
I know, I talk to my
American counterparts
and we've got a really
good relationship with
a group like us out
of like the Veteran
Hunters out of Oregon.
I mean, they were
seeing 22 a day.
Now, we're not seeing
those numbers up here,
but at one point we
were seeing probably
four to five a week.
Geez.
One of my hunter hosts,
he's one of the few guys
still alive from his
platoon in Afghanistan.
Those that didn't die
in Afghanistan have
taken their lives here.
Well before we go too
far into the advent
of Veteran Hunters and
looking at you as a
role model for other
people to be able
to take their lead.
You mentioned a lot of
things here and there's.
Sorry, yeah.
I know it's a huge topic
and I'm trying to keep it
specific to me, but yeah.
It's massive and I
gotta, maybe I'll just
jump right into this
question as you're
going through that.
It's very clear to
me that you've said
this before, and
you've told us before.
And tone, the pitch,
the verbal, the pair
of verbal, there are
instances of activation
that, that you can see as
you're going through it.
The areas that are
going to be more
difficult to talk about.
Do you find it's like
going down a dirt
road where you end up
wearing some ruts in
it and the more you go
down that same road,
the more you keep going
to those same ruts.
And you start ingraining
the same sort of physical
and psychophysiological
responses to what
you're talking about.
Like, is it difficult to
go through and talk about
this over and over again?
Well, in some ways yes
and in some ways no.
So I mean, while we've
been talking about this,
so I've been having like
mental flashbacks to
all of the conversations
and all the incidences.
Right.
Of everything about it.
But one of the things
I've learned is that,
you know, so the whole
time I'm talking about
it and we're doing
this interview, I'm
also self-talking.
So in the back of my
mind, I'm telling myself,
you know what, it's okay.
Like, I know why I'm
feeling these ways, but
you know, the benefits
outweigh the negative
feelings I'm have.
Like, you know, if I can
encourage and inspire and
help and serve others,
then that's better then,
you know, for half hour
or so interview, I can
endure that and then
decompress afterwards.
You mentioned that at
the beginning there you
three times overseas,
2001 left the military,
but you said that you
can look back now and
see that at one point
you were suffering the
early effects of PTSD.
Yes.
At the time you probably
didn't recognize it
and maybe somebody.
No.
Listening to this
podcast might be going
through something similar
and not recognize it.
Would you be willing
to identify some of
those early effects
of PTSD that with the
benefit of hindsight,
you're able to.
Sure.
One of the things,
one of the things I
used to call it was
passionate frustration.
I like that term.
Yeah.
And cause I've always
been, one of the
things that's always
frustrated me is that,
as a leader is when
the organization does
not allow it to reach
its maximum potential
because usually senior
leaders are in the way.
So for me, in our
recall, you know,
having that passionate
frustration was one
of the early signs of
having PTSD and really
that's a combination of,
I'll try and break it
down into sentiments.
So, anxiety, fight or
flight, there's a lot
of anger, anger and
frustration in there.
So when I was working in
the civilian sector from
2001 till 2007, I either
left organizations by
choice or were laid off.
Sometimes I didn't stay
with an organization
for very long, and that
was also one of the
indicators when I was
doing the intake for
the operational stress
injury clinic here.
Was, you know, how many
jobs did you have in a
given period of time?
So I think, trying
to remember now, but
you know, I've worked
for almost every
oil and gas producer
in the oil sands.
If you were to know then
what you know now, when
you first saw those early
signs, what advice would
you give to somebody.
What advice would
you give yourself?
My dad told me when
I was getting out.
He's like, you know, well
what are you going to do?
And I was getting out
without even a plan.
I just wanted out.
Right.
And so my advice to you
or any of your listeners
would be, take a deep
breath and stay in,
don't don't leave out
of anger or frustration.
And I know that it's
hard because if you're
early onset, it's hard.
Cause all you want to
do is just, it's just
get out, get away.
I mean, for five years,
I couldn't even stand
to look at a uniform
and then I went and then
we go into Afghanistan
and then one day
in August, 2006 for
soldiers, I used to serve
that I used to serve
with died in one day.
And that just changed,
now I wanted back again.
Yeah, you know what,
just be patient, seek
help, find the right
people to talk to.
And I didn't, when I
think back now, I went
to different people to
try and get advice, but
their careers had already
been, their careers
were already over.
So there were guys
in JTF2, that I knew.
And those are guys
that I should have
been talking to who are
still serving and we're
having good careers.
In fact, we were at
bowling and spending
time together and my
wife's actually related
to one of the guys that
was serving at the time.
And those were the guys I
should have been talking
to and looking for some
advice, not looking
at older guys whose
careers were now over.
So I would say be
patient, take a deep
breath, try and get
the medical system
onside for you.
And then reach out to
guys whose careers are
still moving forward
and who you can trust.
And that's one of the
things I think back now,
and even my wife, we
were talking about it
last week on our kind
of on our date night.
Was that like,
she even agreed.
She was like, yeah,
why didn't we, we
sat down was a couple
all the time, like
one was her cousin.
And I'm like, yeah, I
don't know why I didn't
even like talk to him.
And, cause he could
have probably helped
me out better than any
of the other officers
that I was talking to.
So anyhow, I mean,
hindsight's 2020.
Of course.
But being able to share
that with others can
be helpful for sure.
Yeah.
Now, and I'm just
speculating here
a little bit, but.
Yep.
Mental health has
a social stigma
attached to it.
I mean, there.
Yes.
Unfortunately, it does
and people look at mental
health as a bad thing.
And you'd mentioned
that I was at the
lithfranc tendon?
IS that what
you called it?
Yeah, the lisfranc.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you'd injured your
lisfranc tendon and if
you were to go into a
doctor and have them
take a look at you, a
doctor could probably
diagnose that there's
a procedure for being
able to look at them.
Yeah, simple
Xray and yeah.
Right.
And you were saying
what, six to eight weeks,
put it in a cast and.
Yep.
There we go.
We know the process in
order to be able to deal
with an injury like that.
And if left unabated,
it will develop into
other things like
knee and hip problems
like it did in you.
Sure.
Different people with
different genetic makeups
will, maybe they're more
heavy set and they're
going to need a little
bit longer before they
could put weight on
it or maybe there, but
these are all variables
that we know about.
And it's easy to look at.
With mental health,
it seems that since
there is this level
of unknown, which is
actually starting to
get narrowed down, I
mean they're learning
more and more about how
to quantitatively and
qualitatively define
the mental health.
But since it's sort
of this more nebulous
sort of thing, it seems
that, I don't know
and I'm just speaking
from observation here.
But one of two things
happen either A.
I people will look at
it and be dismissive
of it because they
say, oh, I can't be
anything, I can't
see the issue right.
Or B.
somebody who is suffering
from mental illness
may look at themselves
as bad or wrong or
something that needs
to be fixed as opposed
to this being a natural
response, a natural,
psychological and
physiological response
to a stressor in a life.
Just like the
lisfranc tendon being
injured from too much
stress or injury,
however it happened.
And with that,
I don't know.
It can become.
Yeah.
I mean, you make a great
analogy there and I'll
just carry with it.
Sure.
So with the lisfranc
there's, yeah an x-ray
shows it, and there's
a standard course of
treatment, but if it
doesn't get treated,
then there's consequences
and mental health
injuries like your brain.
So the issue is,
people see a cast on
an arm or on a leg
or, and that injury is
totally obvious, right?
Well, we don't
physically see mental
health injuries.
We see the consequences
of it, we can see
tremors or even while
we're chatting and you
probably watch, I fidget.
Sure.
My wife gets nauseous
all the time cause I
have one leg that just
constantly moves and
it's funny, and it's
from all the shooting
and training that I do.
Sure.
If we're watching a
TV show and guys are
shooting, I don't
even notice it, but
by muscles are still
flinching, like I'm
shooting in the show and
she totally notices it.
And she's been awesome.
You know, I've given
her over the years,
lots of cause to leave
and a lot of guys
do and she hasn't.
And I thank God for that.
That's massive.
And I thank her and
she's been a really
key to my treatment.
So I'll back up a little
bit, so just like the
lisfranc, not getting
properly treated, and
I ended up with left
knee and hip issues.
Well, with your PTSD not
getting treated, then you
end up with, so I have
irritable bowel, I have,
oh trying to think all
the other consequences.
So veteran's affairs
has a number of, I
think, 6 -10 other
illnesses that you can
get just by having PTSD.
I mean, if your civilian
doctor does the paperwork
for it, they like, yup.
It's in that list of
6 to 10 that we know,
because guys like me
have slogged in the
trenches going through
this and they've made a
lot of mistakes and you
know what, I don't fault
the people that, that
helped treat me, in the
six and a half years.
I mean, I was part of
the plan, that was part
of the plan that Todd
Hisey was going back to
the civilian workforce
and that didn't work out
and we can, we'll talk
about that in a bit.
So yeah, I mean
mental health injuries
aren't usually seen.
My mom saw me as a
different person when I
came home from Kosovo.
I mean she knew me,
she knew me pre Kosovo,
my wife and I had
been dating before
going to Kosovo.
But I mean your family
is the one who knows
you the best right?
So my mom actually was,
played a role in talking
to Veterans Affairs case
management because she
knew baseline Todd Hisey.
My wife knew PTSD Todd
and we were talking
about consequences
too, you know, I
raised three kids being
undiagnosed with PTSD.
So all three of them
unfortunately, whether
it's, they're still
doing studies to
determine whether there's
genetics to PTSD, but
nurture versus nature.
Each one of them have
a couple attributes of
my PTSD and one of the
things I will say is the
treatment that I ever
received from Veterans
Affairs, with respect
to treating my PTSD is
far and away superior
to anything you will
see in a provincial
mental health system.
It is absolutely.
Really?
Disgusting.
Really?
Our provincial
mental health
programs, especially
here in Alberta.
I've seen, cause veterans
afairs didn't have much
to give for my family.
So a lot of what
my kids got, their
treatment was in the
public system and it is
absolutely disgusting.
In fact, I personally
know more about trauma
treatment and therapy
than the people being
paid to do trauma
treatment and therapy.
I believe that.
And it's funny, I could
feel that like right in
my chest, it's like, Oh
my, I could feel that
more than talking about
Kosovo because it just
really, it's just really
bothersome about it.
So, I know veterans
who I've hunted with,
complain about Veterans
Affairs and then, but I
also have the privilege
of being able to see the
provincial public system.
And I'm like, hey man,
count yourself lucky
that you did not get
stuck in the provincial
mental health system.
I mean, when I first
started, I was seeing a
therapist twice a week.
I went six and a half
years of treatment,
that's like, unheard of.
Wow.
Like you do that, figure
out the dollars and cents
that Veterans Affairs
had to pay to get me to
a point where I could
run a non-for-profit
organization.
Sure.
And host guys
for 75 days.
Now, do I get burnout?
Yeah, sure.
And we'll talk
about that too.
Well, one thing that I've
noticed and you brought
up a really interesting
point and you're bringing
up a whole bunch of
points and I'll apologize
for interrupting, but I
want to make sure we can.
No it's all good,
yeah, yeah, no.
Yeah.
I want to make sure we
touch on some of these
points because I think
they're important.
So you mentioned about
the nature and nurture.
Yep.
And your children having
different symptoms of
PTSD and from everyone's
different, everyone's
going to have different
carriers for a logical
or emotional or cognitive
resilience as that'll
allow them to react to
stressors differently.
Yep.
But historically speaking
PTSD was something
that people looked at
as well, it's shell
shock or, it was under
the DSM4, I think as a
general anxiety disorder,
DSM5 a few years ago,
they brought it into
its own new category
and it's more, what
the stressor related
trauma and stressor
related disorders.
And it's constantly
evolving.
And the criteria being
a cluster disorder,
cause it affects there's
a numerous, it's not
just one thing, it's
not just hey, I've got
a broken bone, right?
It's got all these
different parts.
You got your stressor.
And then from what I
understand, we're looking
at recurring thoughts,
avoidance, hyper arousal,
and you start putting
all these things together
and they say, Hey,
let's call that PTSD.
The fact that it's
being taken outside
of just those who
are in the military
or first responders
or in these hugely
traumatic situations
I find interesting.
And I also find
it interesting the
response from some.
I was talking with a
friend of mine a couple
of days ago, an American
individual, his family
is all in the military.
His brother's best
friend's a seal and
diagnosed with PTSD now
my friend's wife was in
a horrific car accident
and brain injury, few
other things, but she
was diagnosed with PTSD.
And when this Navy
seal fellow heard
about this, he lost it.
He's like, how the
hell does she have PTSD
from this car accident?
And she hasn't seen the
horrors that I've seen.
And I guess it comes
down to the perception
of what PTSD is.
And it's constantly
changing, I guess to
some degree, with the
lack of understanding,
there's going to be a
level of ownership that
people take over it.
They maybe wear it,
and instead of being,
Hey, I'm Bob with
the broken foot, no
one would say that.
But they will say, Hey,
there's Bob with PTSD
and I think that adds
to the social stigma
associated with PTSD.
Cause personally,
I think it's a
very natural thing.
I think it's absolutely
natural for somebody
who's gone through the
things that you've gone
through to have the
same physiological and
psychological response.
And it's evident in the
fact that lots of other
people go through the
exact same thing as well.
Yeah.
And you know, and I
really feel for some of
those people, like for
civilians, because they
ended up having some
of the same issues that
we do and they don't
have the same support
structure that those
of us who were served
in the military or
are first responders.
And like I said, I've
seen the civilian side
because of my kids, or
because of other family
that have had to go
through this, the public
health system in Canada.
When I was going through
early treatment for
PTSD and it's part of
like my, one of the
things they tell you in
therapy is you start to
change how you react or
look at things right.
So I used to, I used to
get angry at civilians
in the workplace because
they'd freak out if
the photocopier stopped
working, like to them
that was absolutely
the worst day ever.
And I was like,
seriously, it's not
life or death, you're
not being shot at like,
you know, seriously.
And I found actually
getting shot at was
both exhilarating
and terrifying at
the same moment.
So you're like cool I'm
getting shot at, holy
crap I'm getting shot at.
Right.
But then it was started,
you get to you flip that
upside down and like,
yeah for most civilians,
the worst day in their
life is gonna be when
that photocopier doesn't
work, when they they're
five minutes from doing
a presentation because,
one they're not trained
the same as we are.
It wouldn't have
prepared, they're
waiting till the last
minute to make those
photocopies rather than
planning well an ahead
and all those times.
So they're just not,
they just don't see
the world the same way
we do because, Hey,
I've been been in the
army since I was 19.
So my brain, so one of
the things they found
too, like for those of
us who joined 18, 19,
our brains are still
adapting and molding
so by 25, your human
brain doesn't really
start solidifying itself
till it's about age 25.
Right.
And my dad used to say,
you don't grow a brain
until you're about 25.
Yeah.
So for a lot of us
who have served in the
military, especially
guys on the pointy end
of the spear and you
learn to be hypervigilant
and you've been trained
that way since, you
know, you're like 18.
MY sons are joining
the army reserves and I
got one who's probably
gonna join when he's 16.
So when you start
training kids that are
16, 17, 18, and you're
training them a certain
way and you're teaching
them to be on, it's, and
they're on all the time
until they're 25 and
then their brain is just,
it's just stuck that way.
It's hard because the
army doesn't train
you to integrate
back into society.
We train you to integrate
into the military.
Right.
But we don't train you
to reintegrate back
into society and how
to integrate, to deal
with deal with civilians
and interact with them.
that also for veterans
and first responders
that's that could be a
trigger to just having
to deal with people
that just don't think
or get it, like we do.
So, but yeah.
I guess where I was
sort of going with the
perception of PTSD and
what causes PTSD and how
this seal can be upset
because somebody else
is in a car accident
and they haven't seen
the same sort of things.
I would have to
imagine that with that
perception, it can be
difficult for those
in the military and
those that have served
to come forward with
issues of PTSD if they
personally look at
their situation maybe
not as bad as the JTF2
fellows situation or.
You know, I was in some
stuff, but I shouldn't
complain because this
person seems fine and
they're in a whole
bunch, a whole lot
worse than I was.
And I think just, well
I guess I'll just ask.
Do you find that, is
that something that you
see that people would
be embarrassed or afraid
to come out because they
don't feel that their
level of experience meets
a threshold for PTSD or
what they feel PTSD is?
Yeah.
You know, and I know guys
today who have hunted
with us who are hesitant
to still put in a claim
with Veterans Affairs for
mental health, because
they're like, well
there's other guys that
need it more than me.
You know what, like
seriously put it in, let
the medical practitioners
be the ones who make the
final decision whether
or not you need to be
needed to be treated.
That's one of the
reasons why I talk so
candidly, and as much
as I can about my own
PTSD, it's really just
to encourage other
guys to come forward.
It's not a stigma, it's
something that happened.
And for me, I wouldn't
be in a situation to be
able to serve soldiers
again with the Veteran
Hunters had I not got
the PTSD that I did get.
I look back and look at
the journey, so, yeah
they redacted my files
and yeah, I went through
seven years in this kind
of stuff, but it set me
up to be in a perfect
situation to be able to
have these discussions,
to encourage and inspire
others, to start an
organization like the
Veteran Hunters, and then
really relate to guys.
Yeah.
I didn't, you know,
I wasn't downrange
in Afghanistan, but I
served in the former
Yugoslavia and just as
a note, the actually the
guys who served in the
former Yugoslavia, we
are the largest group
of veterans that are
currently being treated.
You can go on a
VAC's site, like
we're in the tens of
thousands of guys.
In 2017, there were about
7,500 Afghan veterans
that were being treated
for PTSD and they were a
fraction of the overall
guys getting treated.
And based on my
experience, it takes
a guy about five to
eight years before they
actually are in getting
treated, because it
there's that journey
where you have to get
to the right frame of
mind where you're able
to to seek and accept
help and treatment
Cause a lot of guys
like me, like in 2001,
I wouldn't have been
ready for treatment.
I would've been like,
no, I don't have PTSD.
And it would probably
would have triggered
me more and made
me more angry.
It would have actually
given the mental
health practitioners
more ammunition to
say, yes, you do.
Because the more I
resist it, but in 2012,
I was definitely in a
place where I wanted to
get better and wanted
to get treatment.
The unfortunate part is,
you know, you know, I
wasn't the best father
or husband for that first
13 years before I started
getting treatment.
And so when I think
about that, that can
really depress me, but
I don't want to go, I
don't like to go there.
I kind of look at the
here and now, and I spend
a lot of time with my
kids and, heck I don't
know too many kids that
can say they'd been
to Africa hunting with
their dad, like twice.
No kidding.
Yeah.
And I mean, I have kids
that have like top 50,
top 100, SCI animals.
Holy crow.
Yeah.
I always had a passion
to go to Africa and I'm
one of these guys that's
like, I'm not going
to Africa when I'm 70.
So I put a little bit
of money, put a little
bit of money aside that
I had received from
Veterans Affairs and
took my whole family.
And we spent three weeks
in South Africa and
the outfitter that I
hunted with Rob Birch,
Royal Karoo Safaris,
they're a sponsor of
the Veteran Hunters.
He's become a great
friend and we're
like family and
yeah, no it's great.
Actually our animals
from the last trip
are probably getting
shipped this week,
only about a year and
a half behind schedule.
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
So yeah, so I try
and make up for the
past, in the present.
Have you ever read
the book, mans
search for meaning?
Or heard of it?
No.
You just made an
interesting comment
and it was a book,
it's an old book.
It's translated in
a bunch of different
languages, but you said,
if not for my experience,
I would not be in a
position to help others.
And I like that.
I mean that's a
really positive way to
frame what's happened
and really change,
essentially, the way that
you're looking at things
and change the way that
you will respond to it.
Is that conscious?
You know, I think it's
part of the other side
of treatments and therapy
where you're kind of, and
I was fortunate that with
part of my treatment,
you know, I was able to
do a master's degree.
So I did a master's of
science in international
construction management,
because when I've been
in oil and gas, I'd
been doing a lot of
project to maintenance
management as well.
So they were looking
for ways to build on
my existing civilian
resume and get me
back in the workforce.
So it was one
of those things.
But with that, I had to
do a dissertation and I
did, went on a landmark
study on leadership
styles of project and
construction managers
in the oil sands.
And did a bunch of
surveys and did some
comparative analysis
for other regions in
the world that were
heavy on project and
construction management.
And one of the things
that I found was, why
I struggled in the
oil sands was, man my
leadership style did
not fit the prominent
style that's used in
oil and gas in Alberta.
So they use a total
authoritarian style.
Right.
So they bounce off
between authoritarian or
Laissez-faire, depending
on how politically
sensitive the decision
is, whereas I use a
servant leadership style.
So basically I think
from there just
started building more
introspective and
I was able to start
thinking more about
how I fit in, you know.
Your purpose.
Am I here for, yeah.
Yeah.
So and that was one
of the things that I
struggled with, you know,
when you can't soldier
anymore, it's like,
what's your purpose?
Cause as guys, you know,
we don't look at the
meat, the real meaning
is, we're fathers
and husbands, right.
That should mean a lot
to us, but unfortunately
we're guys and we're
like, what do you do?
And even in the army
it's like okay, are
you regular army?
Are you a special
forces guy?
Or, and then the regular
army, you're like, Oh,
do you have jump wings?
And all that
kind of stuff.
It's like, we try
and compare ourselves
based on who we are
and what we've done.
And then when you can't
do it anymore, it's like.
Then who are you?
Yeah.
Who am I?
What's my meaning,
my purpose.
Right.
And I found meaning and
purpose again, when I
started hunting again.
And I found that when
I got into archery that
had started reinforcing
the mindfulness
techniques and the
grounding techniques.
And then when I
coupled that with
the hunting piece,
bow hunting is hard.
And I choose to make it
even harder for myself.
I spot and
stalk with bow.
So now I'm having to use
all the skills that the
army taught me to hunt
a human being, which if
you've hunted animals
with bow spot and stalk.
Man hunting humans is
way easier than hunting,
the smartest mule deer
or elk or a white tail
or stuff like that.
And so I remember
one season I broke
my collarbone in the
summertime, mountain
biking with my boys,
and then I was bow
hunting that fall with
a broken collarbone.
So really it was
just looking for
things to work on.
Cause I knew I
couldn't make a long
bow shot given the
broken collarbone.
So I worked really on
my stalking and really,
I stalked this mule
deer buck for an hour
and a half and came
face-to-face with him.
And for me, that was
it, that was awesome.
Cause I knew if I'd been
healthy and you were
bigger, than I was in
a position to take you.
So in my own mind,
what that was
meaning and purpose.
I was able to use
those skills that
I'd learned, I still
had it, as a soldier,
that I could still do
this stuff and, it's.
Good point.
It's funny, I found
actually I'm going to
Africa for a hunt was
actually really, I was
nearing the end of my
treatment and found that
it's going to Africa
was a really good way to
kind of close the books
on my PTSD, my ability
to shoot and to soldier
and because where I hunt
in Africa, it's spot and
stalk with rifle and bow.
And it's five guys in
a Jeep, so you're out
early morning and so
it's kind of like being
in the army and you're
in rugged train and
you're making, in some
cases, making long shots
and that kind of stuff.
So again, for me, it was
like just reinforcing
the positive things
that I liked about
the army and then you
reinforce like success.
I remembered the last
shot I made to the first
time I went to Africa,
it was a 300 metre shot
on sticks, 642 feet,
different elevation and
an animal running uphill,
passing another animal.
And I hit him in the
vitals and then put a.
Wow.
Second round of broke
and broke his femur.
Right.
And I was like, done.
Like that's, I don't
know if I could make that
shot again today but.
I'll take it.
Yeah.
You know what, at
that time to drop
that kudu, the way
that we did was, yeah.
That's impressive.
I was elated.
Yeah.
I was elated.
And it just proved that
no I still, though I'm
not wearing uniform
anymore, I still have
what it takes to soldier.
Have you seen
the short video?
I think Sitka put it out,
called a place of peace.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's a great, totally
resonates with me.
That's a great
piece that they did.
I'll put a link to
it in the podcast and
on the YouTube here
so that other people
listening can watch that.
But when you're talking
there, that just
kind of came to mind.
You mentioned something
about brain development
and being about 25
when the brain starts
fully coagulating
and solidifying and
into something and
you talked about the
brain being stuck.
And from some of the
reading and research
I've done, people are
talking about neural
plasticity and the
fact that the brain
can basically create
new neural pathways and
it's something that's
being used for PTSD.
And I guess when we
talk about being able to
take an x-ray and there
it is, you can see the
broken bone, but it's
not as self-evident in
a mental health injury.
They're finding that
essentially three main
parts of the brain
are being affected the
amygdala where your
emotions are affected
your hippocampus
or your memory is.
And your prefrontal
cortex or planning,
cognitive functions,
short-term memory, all
of these sorts of things
kind of take place.
I think looking at that
and knowing a little
bit about some of the
new techniques that
people are dealing
with, do you think
that really a person's
brain is stuck at 25?
Let's say they've got
the PTSD and greened
them at that point.
Are they stuck or do you
think they're able to
find proper function and
enjoy through, whether
it's sort of a cognitive
based therapy or some
sort of a mixture of
medications and different
types of talk therapy?
Or do you think it's just
something that that's
going to be cemented in?
Well, I think, I mean
the trauma piece is
cemented in, or the
hypervigilance piece is
probably cemented in.
Okay.
And there's a part of
it that where, the day I
broke my collarbone was
like the best day ever.
And so for those of
us, who've been like
trained to deal with
the emergency situation,
so a lot of us, like we
don't, our PTSD doesn't
prevent us from handling
an emergency situation.
Like an active shooter
or dealing with a
medical emergency or
that kind of stuff.
Sure.
Actually, it
actually drives.
You thrive.
The opposite.
We thrive.
Cause.
That's the best.
Your outside
matches your inside.
What's happening
outside matches what's
going on in your head.
Right.
So that's the best
drug piece ever.
Right.
The problem is, is that.
You can't live
that way right.
Even though your
brain loves that you
can't live that way.
So I'll try and answer
this as best as I
can and succinctly.
So for me, one of
the things I think
anybody with PTSD, if
they're in a position
where they're willing
to get better, can.
I'll speak from my own
personal perspective.
So for me, we
looked at it from a
holistic standpoint.
So yes, I had talk
therapy, I did EMDR.
Right.
Was the therapy that
worked for me, not
the light bar, but
my therapist using
his hand up and down.
The finger back
and forth and.
Yeah.
And just for the
listeners who are, might
not be familiar with
it, that's, you can do
tapping, you can do an
eye light bar going back
and forth, tracking a
finger, but essentially
it's taking from the
hippocampus a long-term
memory and you're
recalling it as a short
term memory, and you're
essentially fuzzing it
out by looking back and
forth really quickly or
tapping really quickly.
And that would
be an accurate
description right?
You're taking the
emotional impact
out of the memory.
Yep.
Okay.
And then, so we're
talking about,
we've got the talk
therapy in there.
We've got the
EMDR, drug therapy.
So finding the right,
so I'm on three
different meds, the
rest of my life.
And for some guys,
the meds aren't their
thing and they find
other things, but I'm
just talking about
my own personal.
So I felt,
physical fitness.
Right.
Staying active.
Right.
And because I mean, our
brains, my brain got
injured in Kosovo because
I was sleep deprived.
So actually I have
permanent insomnia as a
consequence to my PTSD.
So I actually wake
up every day, more
tired than I was
when I fell asleep.
Geez.
So for me, morning
hunts are really hard.
No kidding.
But so yeah, and then
a good sleep and a
good social network.
So I had no veteran
buddies, at all
when I was going
through treatment.
I had no
mentoring at all.
I knew nobody else at
the OSI clinic that
I was going through,
there was no group.
It was me, my wife,
my parents, our
church, that was kinda
my social network.
Right.
Yeah.
So that was kind of
like, those multiple
factors and you have
to, it's something
you have to work at.
Yeah, it's like, you
can't go to the gym
and try and work out
with a trainer and
expect to be fit if you
don't put the reps in.
Right.
And there are some
guys out there that
are stuck in a rut
with their PTSD because
they just can't get the
tire out of the hole.
Right.
And I feel for those guys
and one of the things
that the Veteran Hunters
is really helping guys
overcome that anxiety.
Because that indicted
piece really can rob you
of having a very fruitful
and productive life.
I'm 48 years old
and I got a lot more
years to go and I love
hunting with guys.
Most of the guys that I,
that I take out hunting
are 10 to 15 years
younger than me and this
old guy is just pounding
them into the dirt.
So that's awesome.
So I can still ruck
with the rest with
the best of them.
That's awesome.
Well, want to talk
about Veteran Hunters,
how it got started?
Sure.
So I started looking
around and found in
Canada, there was no
hunting organizations
that focused on
veterans and dealing
with mental health and
that kind of stuff.
But there were lots
of guys in the US.
In fact I connected
with one guy in
Oregon in particular,
22 outdoors is the
organization in Oregon.
And hopefully, big
picture, long down the
road, we're able to do a
joint hunt, whether here
in Alberta or in Montana.
Well that'd be cool.
For elk.
Yeah.
It's kind of something
he and I have talked
about kind of big
picture down the road.
So just threw the
dice, put it out there
and came up with the
term Veteran Hunters.
So one, I mean, I like
kind of using plays
on playing on words,
having kind of worked
with the media and
stuff in the past.
Yeah.
We're veterans and we're
hunting, but we're also
hunting for veterans.
We're trying to find
guys to connect with
and to get into the
organization and find out
about the organization
and that kind of stuff.
Right.
So there's a little
bit of duology there.
So, started the Veteran
Hunter's got the website
up and running self
self-funded for the
first year, connected
with the right guys on
social media who helped
get us some exposure.
We did a snow goose hunt
that first year in 19,
and then it kind of just
snowballed from there.
And by the end of
2019 we'd facilitated
activities for
over 50 guys.
We had been talking
to sponsors throughout
the year, in particular
Vortex Canada, who
came on board right
away at the beginning
of this year.
They've been a great
sponsor, Reg Wells,
one of their field
reps, he served in
Croatia with the RCR,
was injured himself.
So, I mean, so there's
some personal things
there when you look
when you're looking
for sponsors, right?
So if you've got
veterans inside another
organization that
are able to vouch for
you too, it helps.
But they've been
really generous with
us this year and there
are still people out
there and I won't name
organizations, but there
are organizations out
there that are paid to
support veterans who
market their products
using the veteran name.
Okay.
But do not agree that
veterans with PTSD
should be hunting
or using firearms.
Okay.
Yes.
So.
Interesting.
I'm running into
those challenges.
Yeah.
That's gotta
be difficult.
Yeah.
And you just kinda
have to wash your hands
with that one cause I
could see that being
one of the things that
could bring in, what
was the term you use?
The passionate
frustration.
Oh yeah.
I can feel it inside
myself, especially when
you got on the record.
Like, I did a podcast
with a psychologist from
the operational stress
injury clinic saying we
are doing, what we're
doing is exactly what
some veterans need.
Right.
Every veteran.
Some.
First responder.
Yeah.
I mean.
Not all.
We were a gap.
Right.
There's two groups
doing fishing in Canada
and we're the only
ones doing hunting.
Right.
We're the only
organization of our kind
and we're a national
organization this year.
So I have volunteers in
BC, I have volunteers in
New Brunswick and Nova
Scotia and Newfoundland
and I mean, majority
of our hunts are here
in Alberta and we've
actually had, we had guys
fly out from Ontario.
Wow.
To hunt elk this year.
We had a guy last year
fly out from Ontario to
hunt because actually,
we found out like, we can
actually bring veterans
here into Alberta for
really reasonable rate
with what we're doing.
Right.
So we're not an
outfitter, have a great
relationship with the
Outfitters Association,
but we're a hunter hosts.
So back to your initial
question, so, what we do
is every year I sit down
with the various hunter
hosts and I'll probably,
I'm going to bring on a
few more guys next year.
And, we basically we'll
sit down for a day,
probably this year
it'll be on a zoom call
or something like that
and we'll hammer out
kind of the hunting
schedules tentatively,
especially the spring
ones, we'll try and
get them up right away.
So if a veteran is out
there, if actually,
if you were to Google
Veteran Hunter or Veteran
Hunters, we're probably
the number one Google
search to come up.
So that makes it easy.
Yeah.
You go on there and
you'll find you'll
scroll down and you'll
look at our calendar.
And really, we'll post
all of their dates and
those are the dates that
our hunter hosts, put
up and say, Hey, I'm
willing and able to take
a guy for this period,
in this locale, for
this specific animal.
And really it's
connecting with the
organization, which would
be me ,by email and I
try and talk to every
veteran that connects
with our organization.
We've got over 500 now
on our Facebook group,
so if I don't get back
to you right away, it's
nothing personal, it's
just, I'm a busy guy.
Just one man.
Just one man, yeah.
So it's just one man
and you know what, I'm
a father with teenagers
and I'm married and I've
got, this is supposed to
be a side thing, right?
Not my full-time.
So that's the whole
work-life balance peice.
So veteran would pay
their own way, come
on out, be set up
with somebody from
the organization.
Yep.
And when you guys go
out, they've got the
opportunity to connect
with somebody else who
may have similar life
experiences and maybe
in a better place than
they are, and able to
help them navigate from
where they are now,
to someplace better.
Is that essentially
the crux?
Yeah, that's
essentially it.
Yeah.
Basically you contact
us, tell us what you're
interested for dates,
we'll connect to you.
Get yourself here and
we'll take care of it.
We'll take care
of the rest.
If you need
accommodations, we'll
sort that out for you
at a reasonable cost.
And essentially, they've
got a hunting buddy,
but not just any hunting
buddy, somebody who's,
receptivity helpful.
Right.
Who's walked
in their shoes.
Right.
I use these analogies, I
mean, one of the things
about veterans hunting
with veterans or veterans
hunting with like first
responders that kinda
stuff, there are a lot
of first responders are
veterans themselves, they
just transitioned from
the army into the being
a policeman officer or
paramedic or firefighter.
It's just, it's similar
work, but just different,
but similar stresses.
Is, when you're hunting,
you wake up in the
morning and everyone
pulls out their Ziploc
bags with their meds.
We all kind of laugh
and look at each other
and it's like, there's a
level of comfort, right?
You're not
having to explain
anything, everybody
knows you're at.
We talked about like
having irritable bowel.
Well, when you when I
pull over the truck,
the three other guys in
the truck probably have
to go at the same time.
So we're all
laughing about this.
So it's funny that
you talking about
being candid.
Sure.
Like I'm totally candid.
Totally.
Because you
know, it is just.
Is what it is.
It is what it is, right.
And so it's awesome.
And when you're hunting
with guys and the guy
looks at you, or I
look at a guy and I
go, Hey man, no stress,
like you let me know
when you're ready to
go, I'm going to grab
another cup of coffee.
You want one?
Yup.
And when you're
ready, we'll go hunt.
And one of the, a
good friend of mine
and former co-host on
my podcast, Bryce, he
talked, he calls it
windshield therapy.
To and from the hunt
you're talking to a guy
and you're sharing your
experiences and we've
had one of the guys who
flew out here last year
and he got his PTSD from
the Swiss air disaster.
He was in the Navy and
having to clean that
up for three weeks.
Well, he couldn't fly
for 12 years and the
first time he got on an
airplane was to fly out
here and hunt with us.
Wow.
And it actually was, he
flew on the anniversary
of the Swiss air
disaster, but for him,
coming out here to
Alberta for the first
time and pursuing
elk with a backpack
was more important
than, he just wanted
to experience that.
Good for him.
And we did a podcast
with Damon when he was
here and then one a
couple of weeks later
when he went home and
actually we've stayed
good friends and I was
talking to him yesterday.
And yeah, the lasting
and lingering effect,
positive effects
of coming out and
participating in
the hunt is huge.
And he was going on, they
were doing a family trip
to Costa Rica and he was
starting to get kind of
the anxiety from flying
on another airplane
and I said, Hey man, go
back and listen to your
podcasts, listen to your
own voice, telling you.
Right.
How therapeutic it was.
He was like, Oh yeah,
that's what a great idea.
So that's why I
encourage guys, I say,
check out our website,
look at the hunts.
There's 35 podcasts from
last year where we talked
to countless veterans.
They talk about their
own post-traumatic
stress story, they talk
about where they are
now and the successes
and the segway in.
And that's one of the
things we're going to,
we've focused on with
the Veteran Hunters
show that's going to
Sportsman's channel
is every episode we're
looking at a veteran
or a first responder.
They'll talk about
their journey, but
their success today.
So we've got veterans
who have their own
businesses, they've
overcome their
PTSD and have their
own businesses.
Right.
Or they're like me and
they're running another
nonprofit organization
that's trying to help
first responders.
Just to help people,
encourage people.
And then one of the
episodes will be about
me, and it's kind of mine
I think, is going to be
a bit of a compilation.
It's got to go to the
editors still, but
mine will probably be a
compilation showing how,
for me, it's therapeutic
serving the other guys.
Right.
Having been a former
officer and it's funny
you liked my tagline
on my cell phone.
I saw that yeah.
So in order to be
a leader, you must
first be a servant.
Right.
And so, and I truly
believe that, and it's
all that kind of from the
adage, know your men and
promote their welfare.
So I get therapy by
running the organization,
helping out guys and
there's countless guys
who put up testimonials
and we try and track
those as many cause
sponsors love to
see that stuff.
Just talking about
the benefits.
This year we put
activities on for over
75 guys this year.
And we'll probably by
the end of the hunting
season, who's still
got some special elk
season's going on here
in Alberta, so we'll
probably have put it on
a combined like 190 days
of hunting this year.
Wow.
Yeah and.
That's impressive.
That's kind of that's
yeah, and that's a
capacity I think, for
where we're at right now.
So we need to kind of
grow the organization
a little bit more
and that's great, you
know, by bringing on
a guy like Jeff, to
look after they'll do
the whole sponsorship
piece cause that can
be a full-time job.
Looking for organizations
to help us with gifts
in kind or dollars to
help the operations.
Well, is there
anything else we should
be talking about?
Anything that you
think we should be
getting out there
before we start looking
at wrapping up here?
I think it's just letting
other veterans, first
responders know, you know
what, you're not alone.
There are over 500
people on our Facebook
group, there's countless
guides and ladies the
last couple of years
that have hunted with
our organization or that
I've spoken with, just
encouraging you to push
through the anxiety.
Don't let it rob you
of your life, both
physically and mentally.
You know, don't
let the demons win.
When we were all in
training, we would
push through the demons
and finish that ruck
march, or we would push
through the struggles
overseas or push
through anything to, to
survive and to get home.
And now that we are
at home, continue to
push and push through
the struggles because
that's what made us
who we are as soldiers.
And don't lose the
battle here at home,
continue to fight,
and you're not alone.
Connects with us.
You know, we brought on
a chaplain this year,
one of the pastors from
our church came on this
year and he's available.
You can connect with
him through our website
and if not, they can
shoot me an email as
well, or connect with us
through Facebook and we
can help you with that
mental health piece or
the peer support piece.
You know, I've talked
to every person, every
veteran that's connected
with us and it's been
good because there's guys
I know that I can't put
together because it'll
trigger each other.
But that's another
learning too, is that
not all veterans can
be with each other.
Right.
Because of their
overseas experiences.
So that's why I talked
to everybody that
wants to hunt with the
organization, just to
know where they're at.
And if you want to hunt
with this too, we'll, we
send you, we developed a
forum this year that has
some personal questions,
but it just helps us
better prepare ourselves
and you, to hunt with us.
Todd, thank you very
much for being on The
Silvercore Podcast.
I'm really impressed with
what you've done so far.
I'm really excited
to see where Veteran
Hunters is going to be
going in the future.
And I'm very happy to
be able to assist you
with your endeavor
in any way we can.
Thank you.
Thanks Travis,
appreciate it.