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Did you grow up in a family that "did emotions?" Do you feel you sometimes lack the tools to overcome struggles or develop coping skills?
As adults invested in the lives of the kids in our world, we all want to give them the things we didn't have. In this series about relationships, we wanted to know the keys to raising emotionally healthy kids, so we brought in the experts!
Join Hannah and Lindsey for a conversation with Sissy Goff and David Thomas, Executive Directors of Daystar Counseling in Nashville. For over three decades, Sissy and David have been providing support, encouragement, and compassion to children, adolescents, and families through counseling. In this episode, they share some of the trends they see for kids in this present moment, strategies to connect with our kids, and the importance of doing our own work. If you're a grown-up who wants to show up for the kids in your life, this episode is for you!
Mentioned in this episode:
6:18 – Working towards the first generation of emotionally healthy kids
Mentioned in this episode:
6:18 – Working towards the first generation of emotionally healthy kids
9:06 – Why parents need to do their own emotional and mental health work
10:37 – Coping strategies for families experiencing big emotions
13:09 – How emotional health gets overcomplicated with kids and adults
21:20 – How their childhoods impacted the work Sissy and David do now
27:01 – How to talk to your kids about your own therapy
28:08 – Mental health trends for kids in 2024
31:23 – Understanding anxiety in boys and girls
38:40 – Helping kids practice taking safe risks
40:54 – How Sissy and David use group therapy with kids
44:48 – The impact birth order plays in kids' understanding of self
47:53 – Why it’s important for kids to have a community of safe adults
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Whether you’re in a challenging season or just want to learn and grow, Onsite has an experience to meet you right where you are and guide you to the more you’re seeking.
We pair the finest hospitality with the best clinical minds in the country to guide you toward lasting transformation. Our holistic care is thoughtfully designed to help you connect to yourself and the community you form at Onsite.
You deserve healing. We're here to guide you! Start the process today or connect with our Admissions team at 1-800-341-7432 to discover the right experience for you!
Whether you’re in a challenging season or just want to learn and grow, Onsite has an experience to meet you right where you are and guide you to the more you’re seeking.
We pair the finest hospitality with the best clinical minds in the country to guide you toward lasting transformation. Our holistic care is thoughtfully designed to help you connect to yourself and the community you form at Onsite.
You deserve healing. We're here to guide you! Start the process today or connect with our Admissions team at 1-800-341-7432 to discover the right experience for you!
Creators & Guests
What is Living Centered Podcast?
So many of us go through life feeling out of touch with ourselves, others, and the world around us. We feel disconnected, overwhelmed, distracted, and uncertain of how to find the clarity, purpose, and direction we so deeply, so authentically, desire. The Living Centered Podcast in an invitation to another way of living.
Every episode, we sit down with mental health experts, artists, and friends for a practical and honest conversation about how to pursue a more centered life—rediscovering, reclaiming, and rooting in who we truly are.
Doing your own work is probably the greatest gift we can give the kids we love. And we are challenging parents in that direction with consistency and having seen evidence over all these decades of doing the work of how that changes the
Sissy Goff:game. We want so much to equip parents on both ends of the reactive, what do we do in the moment to help kids learn healthy coping strategies and to empathize with them, to attune with them, but also the proactive, what do we need to do that's really all about self care that makes more of a difference, I think, than we give it credit for a lot of times.
Mickenzie Vought:Welcome to the Living Centered Podcast, a show from the humans at Onsite. If you're new to this space and just beginning this journey, we hope these episodes are an encouragement, a resource, and an introduction to a new way of being. If you're well into your journey and perhaps even made a pit stop at Onsite's Living Centered Podcast or one of our other experiences, we hope these episodes are a nudge back
Mickenzie Vought:toward the depth, connection, and authenticity you found. In this series, we sat down with some of our favorite experts and emotional health sojourners to explore the relationships that make up our lives. From our friendships to our families or families of choice to our relationship with ourselves, part practical resource and part honest storytelling that will have you silently nodding me too.
Mickenzie Vought:This podcast was curated with you in mind. Let's dive in.
Hannah Warren:Hey, friends. We are so excited for this week's episode. We are joined by the inspiring and wise, Cissy Goff and David Thomas, who are counselors, friends, and leaders in our Nashville area. And I just cannot wait for you to hear from them around this conversation about how to raise emotionally smart kids.
Lindsey Nobles:Yeah. David and Cissy are just awesome. I love talking to them. I learned so much from them in this conversation and then just through their books and their podcast Raising Boys and Girls. They are just filled with wisdom and just practical resources on how we can better support our kids and help them become emotionally strong, emotionally smart, and emotionally intelligent.
Lindsey Nobles:I am excited about the world that has kids that are raised with these tools. And so I'm so grateful for the work that David and Sisi do. I think y'all are gonna love this conversation.
Hannah Warren:Yeah. And if you are a parent or a non parent, we believe that this conversation will really leave you encouraged and equipped to become a better emotionally smart adult. So therefore, you can help raise, a whole generation of emotionally smart kids and hopefully an emotionally well world. Let's dive in.
Lindsey Nobles:So excited to be here today with David and Cissy. David and Cissy are codirectors at Daystar Counseling, which is an amazing resource for kids in the Nashville area, but the work that they do has spread so far beyond Nashville. They are really the go to experts on raising emotionally healthy boys and girls and how do we parent well, and they're such they've been such a resource to me. I love following them on social media and getting to see them every once in a while around town. But I feel like y'all have just made sort of emotionally smart parenting so accessible for people.
Lindsey Nobles:And it's so interesting, I guess, when I was growing up, this just wasn't really a conversation that I think my parents were privy to. And it's so cool to see that shift in the focus now on, like, how do we resource parents and how do we resource kids around starting early and beginning conversations about reconciling your feelings and all of that. So how have y'all seen sort of this movement infiltrate the world, and how has it changed over the last several decades? Because y'all have both been in it for a little bit.
Sissy Goff:That was gracious. Like, 3 decades, which is a really long time. You know, I always laugh because I think the only parenting book my mom ever read, which I think was the only one that was accessible back when I was a kid, was doctor Spok. I don't even know the name of the parenting book. And my mom's one big takeaway was smile at your baby, which honestly, if you know my sister and I, we both smile a lot.
Sissy Goff:So, Summer, something took cold there. But I do I love what you said. I I did a podcast once and the interviewer said, we are raising the 1st generation of emotionally healthy kids. And I love that statement. I wouldn't say necessarily and I'm a one on the Enneagram, so words have to be true.
Sissy Goff:But I would say we're working towards being the 1st generation of raising emotionally healthy kids in this really beautiful, intentional way that that I think has changed significantly in the last 5 years. What would you say?
David Thomas:Oh, I would absolutely agree. And Lindsay, a lot of the focus of my work has been with boys. And I think a lot about that Frederick Douglass quote of, you know, it's easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. And I think I feel so hopeful when I think about this movement and this world being short on great men. And I sometimes am sitting with boys who are 7.
David Thomas:And I think to myself, I can't wait to see what you're like as a grown up. Like, I just start to cast a vision of who he might be as an adult man, as a husband, as a father himself. And so it makes me feel really hopeful that we are having the kinds of conversations we're having.
Sissy Goff:Lindsay, your little guy included in that. I feel that way so much watching you raise him on Instagram. Not that you're raising him on Instagram, but getting to have a little bit into it. He's just adorable and your thoughtfulness and intentionality with him feels so much like that.
Lindsey Nobles:Wow. I I always wish like, last night, we were having a tantrum, right before bedtime, and I'm like, I wish somebody was here to coach me through this because I don't feel like I'm doing it right. And I've realized, I think, in the toddler tantrum season around how hard it is to stay emotionally regulated and grounded myself when there's just this, like, all this feeling. I'm self preservation for in the Enneagram, and it is just so easy to let his, feelings take over mine. And I'm curious what y'all's advice would be for parents that are listening around.
Lindsey Nobles:How do they begin to kind of do their own work so that they can be the best version of themselves for their kids?
Hannah Warren:Well, I
David Thomas:think we would first say that doing your own work is probably the greatest gift we can give the kids we love, and we are challenging parents in that direction with consistency and and having seen evidence over all these decades of doing the work of how that changes the game. And you know, I think about how much we love the work you all are doing at Onsite, how passionate we feel about that work and how how different parents feel when they come back. And, you know, I think about over the years, Lindsey, of how many parents I have worked with who are deep into recovery work and how I think it changes, not just who they are as people, but who they are as parents, because, you know, if you're operating from that foundational place every day where I wake up and it's like, I struggle, I need God, I need community like these basic things that are true for every one of us. Like it really does shift the equation. And it's amazing to watch the spillover effect of that with parents.
David Thomas:So we believe strongly in parents doing their own work and you talk about it so specifically around anxiety too.
Sissy Goff:I love that we're having this conversation and I do think there's so much that has changed in such a good way and and a lot of what we think about when we're having those moments is really important and it's it's what we do in the moment. It's the coping strategies we're trying to help kids move towards and for example, we love when a family has a code word and anytime any of us say watermelon, that means we're gonna pause. I'm gonna go to my space, you're gonna go to your space and we're all gonna do the things we know we need to do to regulate ourselves. Because often kids would rather you stay in the moment and they would rather draw you into this emotional tug of war we sometimes call it so that they have a release for all that big emotion. Because if they can draw you into that they don't have to do the hard work of developing healthy coping strategies.
Sissy Goff:They'd rather you be their coping strategy, which is not a great pattern for moving towards adulthood. We know and I think there's so much emphasis in the mental health field about what we do in those moments that are really reactive. But there's also this whole proactive component of mental health that you all do such a beautiful job of addressing it Onsite And and so thinking about we were laughing today because we had a speaking event last night, and we talked for an hour and a half, then we did question and answer for 30 minutes, and then we went to the book table. And by the end of the book table, I really wanted to stick my tongue out at every person who came up.
Sissy Goff:I was so grumpy and I couldn't even figure out why I had gotten there. And then it was this morning that I realized I have had a commitment every morning before work, every night after work, which is too much. And and that is my first sign that I'm not doing the proactive work of being in a better place in terms of my own mental health. And so we want so much to equip parents on both ends of the reactive. What do we do in the moment to help kids learn healthy coping strategies and to empathize with them to attune with them, but also the proactive, what do we need to do that's really all about self care that makes more of a difference, I think, than we give it credit for a lot of times.
Hannah Warren:I'm curious, since y'all work on both sides of the spectrum, I know you work directly with kids, and then I know you do a lot of resourcing and work with parents. I think as adults, we often way overcomplicate the things around mental health. We I don't know. I I read so many books and I watch seminars and I go to these amazing things, but oftentimes, it's the really simple things that are gonna make a lasting difference in my own mental health. And I wonder how you see the correlation between resourcing both child and parent and kinda like how it probably is a lot of commonalities I make up about, like, what they both need.
Hannah Warren:I'm sure, like, the adult has more responsibility of instilling those needs in kids, but can you share a little bit about kinda how you see the mirror effects of how resourcing looks like for both the child and the parent?
David Thomas:Great question, and I 100% agree with you, Hannah. I think we do overcomplicate it, and I think it's one of the many things that I love so much about working with kids is that reminder consistently of keep it simple. And you know, it fascinates me to think about how often I have talked with kids about movement and breathing. I talk about those 2 things all the time and how they're 2 of the most effective, efficient ways for any of us to regulate and how easily I can forget those myself. And I was talking on a podcast the other day about the reality that, you know, there's not been a time in my life that I have gone on a walk and felt worse.
David Thomas:You know, every time I feel bad, it's like, yeah, David, you know, that just 30 minutes a day of moving your body of how it not only impacts my physical health, but my mental health as well. And I think kids do this great reminder for us of, I think about how often they just walk in the door, drop their backpacks and go straight outside. And that reminder of we would do ours, we would serve ourselves so well to be remembering those things. Kids know, have a snack from time to time and we let ourselves be really dehydrated and hungry. And so I think there just are a lot of simple practices within their daily rhythms that I think we lose as adults that we could be reminded of easily from being with kids.
Sissy Goff:And I think to even the the tools that we use sometimes get really complicated. And when we're working with kids, I mean, with anxiety, we talk about the worry monster and giving the the worry a name that's in the back of your head, which is really part of what we do as adults. We name that voice in our head, and we learn positive self talk. And it's it's so simple with kids. And it's funny doing parenting seminars where we talk about language for kids and the simplistic ness of it.
Sissy Goff:Parents attach to it so often. And Yeah. I mean, even last night, we were telling the story that I have I have I have kind of an interesting family dynamic. Y'all I don't know if y'all notice about me, but I was an only child till I was 16. And then my parents told me they were pregnant, which you can imagine was a total shocker at 16 with an only child.
Sissy Goff:Evidently, the first thing I said to my mom was I didn't know y'all did that anymore. So I have a much younger sister who has a 5 year old and 2 year old little boy and who are just the light of my life. We've lost our mom and so I get to be aunt and grandmother and all these things with these little fellas. And we were taking my 5 year old nephew to Disney for the first time last year. He was 4 at the time and I really hadn't thought about how scary Disney is for little ones.
Lindsey Nobles:Yeah. So many people.
Sissy Goff:Yes. So many people. And we were going down the tunnel to pirates of the Caribbean and just that tunnel in the dark. It gets dark. Yes.
Sissy Goff:And so his little face, I could see him getting more and more afraid. And I got down on his little level and I said, Henry, a little bit scared, a whole lot of fun, a little bit scared, a whole lot of fun. And I really I had a mom come in. I don't think I've told you this. I had a mom come in and meet with me who had been to this parenting seminar a couple weeks ago.
Sissy Goff:And she said, my favorite thing, my biggest takeaway was a little bit scared a whole lot of fun. I keep going back to it for my daughter, but also for me. Yeah. For me. It's those simple concrete things that I think, like y'all said so beautifully, we overcomplicate.
Sissy Goff:But when we can go back to these simple mantras, these simple tools that we use, not only are we helping teach the kids we love those mantras and tools, We're walking it out, modeling it in front of them, but it really can be transformative for us too.
Hannah Warren:Yeah. Yeah. We obviously work, primarily with adults at Onsite and I think about how, David, you said earlier that when you were working with a a little boy and you're like, I can't wait to see you as an adult or I can see you as a healthy adult, I think we kind of, like, kinda work backwards. Like, when we work with our clients, I'm like, oh, I see that little 7 year old. Like, I see that 5 year old.
Hannah Warren:And I think about how hopeful it makes me of this next generation raising up, and y'all working so hard to create healthy little humans because they turn into healthy big humans. And and, sure, they're still gonna have complications and life's still gonna life, but I think about everyone that we see. And, basically, everything stems back to, like, being that little kid and not getting what you needed at that time. And so, like, you say, I see that little that that grown up in you, and I think we see a lot of the children. And I I write a lot of our content for marketing and such.
Hannah Warren:And anytime I post anything around children, every time, every single person's like, and I need that too. And I just think it's so, simple sometimes, and we just lose sight of it all the time. And so I think the more that we can get in touch, both just nurturing both the children we are impacting and also the child within us, just how much better the world would be.
Sissy Goff:I want y'all to know, I have right now a child whose sibling is in your program. And I met with her this week and you all to hear her talk and her fear about what's going on with her sibling, and for me to know you all like I know you, and to trust you like I trust you, it was such a gift to be able to sit with her and say, your sibling is in the best of hands, and here's the work that I know is happening and the difference I know it's gonna make. And even talking with the parents who are coming to see you for family week soon and just saying it's gonna be so profoundly amazing for you. I just can't wait to hear on the other side of it. And I just have every bit of confidence in you all and the work you're doing.
David Thomas:Me too. I was consulting with a mom 2 days ago who's coming to you next week and she's really nervous. And we were talking about what I imagined our conversation would look like when she got back. And I think it's that same thing of just, I trust your work so much. I always feel like you make my job easier
Hannah Warren:when
David Thomas:I know the parents are headed
Hannah Warren:through the way
David Thomas:partnership. Yes. So we can't say thank you enough
Lindsey Nobles:Vice versa.
Mickenzie Vought:We've often said on this podcast that no one gets into the helping profession by mistake. At this point in the conversation, Lindsay asked both Cissy and David to share what they were like as kids, and if they can see now threads within themselves and their stories that would point them back to the kind of work they're doing now. It was really fascinating to hear the similarities in their stories.
Sissy Goff:You know, it's funny. I think so often about how God uses all of it. That when I look back at my little self, that there was so much and even my adolescent self, maybe even more that there was so much that God was forming in me that I had no idea that would be all part of who I am now. And I was I mean, in any agreement one. So I was trying to do everything right, trying to be good all the time, trying to earn everybody's love and approval, all those things, and would have loved to have had so many of the tools we're talking about because I joke with parents all the time because I really think a lot of us as adults don't realize that perfectionism is really anxiety.
Sissy Goff:Yeah. And nobody said that to me when I was growing up because we weren't talking about all these things. We were just smiling at each other at my house,
Lindsey Nobles:which is like You're right. Yeah.
Sissy Goff:Right. Exactly. Good. But I think it's funny. I, somewhere along the way, and I think part of in my wanting to please, wanting to connect with the grown ups around me, started taking on leadership positions and loved them and something came to life in me.
Sissy Goff:It's funny, not and I actually was typically the second in command. I wasn't the first because I didn't wanna be in front of everyone. I didn't wanna be running the show, but I loved being the second. I loved I had a job at Walmart, Lindsay, where there was a girl who was the the leader of our entire group, and she made the speeches and she did all those things, and I wrote the speeches. And I loved it.
Sissy Goff:I loved researching. I loved pulling all the different authors and different things together at 15, and then letting her be the front person. And and I think there was so much that came to life in using my voice and the things that were bringing life to me and sharing those with other people that still feels like what I get to do today. I was really involved in an organization called Y Teens, where it was the same thing. And and I just I feel like I'm doing the 53 year old version of what I was doing at 14, 15, 16, 17.
Sissy Goff:And I'm so grateful to get to continue.
David Thomas:We have an overwhelming amount of overlap in our stories in that way. We're both firstborns. We're both Enneagram Ones. I would say, Lindsey to your kind question when I think I knew even that I would do this work, I didn't know it then, but I look back now and it makes so much sense as I worked all the summers of my college years at a camp for elementary age kids and my coworkers would come and get me at night with the kids who were so homesick they couldn't stop crying before bed. And I would just sit on the end of the bed and talk at length with those kids or we'd be hiking during the day and I would end up walking with the kid whose parents had just gotten divorced right before camp started.
David Thomas:And something about being with kids in really sad and hard places. It just didn't overwhelm me. It it and I felt energized by those conversations and so I I look back on those kind of different moments being in leadership in high school and being with friends in hard places and thinking you know God was preparing you for this work all along, and and so it made a lot of sense. I tried to kind of detour from it in college. I was an advertising major for a couple of years, but found my way right back to it.
David Thomas:So grateful for the work all this many years later.
Lindsey Nobles:Did y'all have an intersection in your child years or as a youth with therapy that was positive?
Sissy Goff:I did. I, I watched Days
Lindsey Nobles:of Our
Sissy Goff:Lives, and there was a child psychologist named Marlena who, I think, plays
Lindsey Nobles:something in had the devil in her for a while, if I remember correctly.
Sissy Goff:No, y'all. I mean, we grew up we are old. We grew up in the seventies and no one was talking about mental health. I did not know a person in counseling had never met a person who was in the field or acknowledging that it even existed. I think until I got really interested in it, probably in college.
Sissy Goff:So we just weren't really exposed. I often will say I think I became what I wish I'd had or have set out to become what I wish I'd had as a kid.
David Thomas:Mhmm. Same for me. Grew up. Marlena? No, not Marlena.
David Thomas:But we were all watching soap operas. We still don't quite understand that about all of our parents. That was a real thing in the seventies eighties. They were real conservative about a lot of things, but let us all watch soap operas till we don't get it. But no.
David Thomas:And then I grew up in a small town in the south and didn't know a single person. But what I would say to that question is that when I was in high school, my mom started going to counseling and talked about it and she had to drive an hour away like she worked so hard to do this work. And I remember having conversations with her and how it normalized the experience for me, having known no one. And I think even inform the way we so often will talk with parents about how good it is to talk with kids when you're in counseling. Whether you're doing your individual work or marital work and you know, many of us grew up thinking, oh, but if I tell them they'll be worried something's going on and really we've experienced the opposite
Hannah Warren:to be true. And even as far as having so many
David Thomas:kids in our opposite to be true.
Hannah Warren:And even as far as having so many kids in our
David Thomas:offices at times who will say to us, will you tell my dad to go meet with this person? Or, my mom and dad are arguing a lot. Will you tell them to go meet with their person? And I love when they know their parents have a person and the safety and security that offers up. There's someone who's helping quarterback this experience, which I think takes a lot of ownership and responsibility off of
David Thomas:kids.
David Thomas:I think when there's Yeah. Not a known person, sometimes I think kids go that place of thinking, I may need to do more. I may need to behave better. I may need to perform better. I may need to make better grades.
David Thomas:My mom and dad aren't arguing as much, or my mom doesn't seem as sad, and so we really advocate for parents talking about not just doing the work, but the benefits of it. Gosh, it helped me so much when I went talk to my person. I had so much worry going on in my head or talking about questions they've asked you that you've been wrestling with that have felt helpful. We really believe in that.
Hannah Warren:It sounds like you guys both have, I mean, several decades of experience and also 3 decades of kind of passion and intersection where that was prior to professional experience. How have you guys seen what kids face, struggles, issues, strengths, all of that kind of shift over those decades? Are kids facing the same problems they were 30 years ago? Are they the same? Are they different?
Hannah Warren:What obviously, did that grow and change over the years?
Sissy Goff:Yes. We can probably talk about different things in terms of girls and boys. There's a lot that's the same in terms of questions about who they are, what they need from the grown ups around them, but it has gotten so much more complicated than it's ever been. I mean, we are now statistically with kids
Hannah Warren:looking at 1 in 4 kids dealing with anxiety, 1 in
Sissy Goff:3 adolescents. Girls are twice as kids dealing with anxiety, 1 in 3 adolescents. Girls are twice as likely as boys to deal with it, which we know continues into adulthood. And even though girls face anxiety more than boys, boys are taken to get help more. And I think it's some of that
Lindsey Nobles:That's interesting. Them.
Sissy Goff:I know. I think it's some of the perfectionism we were talking about before. Really boys and girls, every kid we've ever seen who's anxious is really bright. They're really conscientious. They're trying so hard.
Sissy Goff:They're caring so much. Things matter to them. It's these beautiful parts of who they are that they've just gotten tripped up in a little, which I think y'all would probably say the same is true about adults.
Hannah Warren:K.
Sissy Goff:And so I think, often with girls, those are the girls who at the parent teacher conference, the teacher says, I wish every girl in my class was just or every child was just like your daughter. And they go they fly under our radar and we're not flagging them as struggling because they look like they're hitting all the right boxes. And so just like we probably were. Mhmm. And so it gets really tricky because and I think that's part of why statistically kids often go 2 years before they ever get help.
Sissy Goff:And so anxiety feels rampant right now among girls, and it was moving that direction pre pandemic, but it has certainly gotten worse since. And I would say that's one phenomenon right now that I think we need to be. We cannot press in enough with parents helping girls and parents. Y'all know this. Parents are more anxious than they have ever been.
Sissy Goff:And that feels like I think it feels like anxiety among kids skyrocketed and has kind of plateaued. Feels like parents are just continuing into the stratosphere. And so that feels like one thing. The other thing I would say in working with girls is I think girls are meaner than they've ever been and which obviously is also contributing to the anxiety. And so those two things at play in different ages just feel really tough for girls to navigate, for parents to navigate and and would say and and it's interesting.
Sissy Goff:I was talking about this with somebody last night. I think girls are meaner than they've ever been. I also think mothers are meaner than they've ever been. And so for us to continue to do our work as grown ups just feels like the very best gift we can give kids.
Mickenzie Vought:If you're like me, you were not surprised to learn that anxiety has increased in both girls and boys over the last few years. Honestly, my anxiety has increased over the last couple of years. And it took someone naming it for me for me to realize that I was actually becoming numb to the level of anxiety with which I operated in each day. It made me wonder, are we becoming numb to the signs that our kids are displaying, or are we even completely confused when we see it? I was glad that Lindsay asked Cissy to share a little bit more about what anxiety looks like in our kids and how we can recognize it, name it for them, and help both boys and girls navigate it.
Sissy Goff:So I've written a couple of books about anxiety at this point. One of them is called Raising Worry Free Girls and in that one, which I think we would say these are true about boys too, but we talk about them being on this continuum from exploders to imploders. And if David were gonna really overgeneralize the boys he sees, most boys will lean towards being explosive. And and most girls, I think, lean lean towards being more explosive except in their very young years. A lot of girls will explode at home until a certain age.
Sissy Goff:And that voice that has so much venom, that's really more about them than it is about their parents. At some point when they become more aware of appropriateness. And those conscientious kids wanna be kind and they don't want to feel what we used to would have considered more negative emotions. So that voice turns inward. And all the exploding turns to imploding and they're really angry at themselves.
Sissy Goff:And so I think when we sit with parents who on one side use words like angry, demanding, controlling, explosive. I always wanna ask a parent when. When are you seeing that happen? And often it's either in times of unpredictability or transition. And those kids don't yet have the words to say, mom, when you change my schedule at the last minute, it makes me feel anxious.
Sissy Goff:And so it comes out as more exploding. And so that for those kids, the perfectionistic kids, I think we see more rigidity, less flexibility. We also see a lot of headaches and tummy aches. And so we want to pay attention on both of those ends. And the other way that I would say I see it with kids are endless questions, especially about the schedule.
Sissy Goff:What's happening next, then what's happening, then what's happening often at bedtime. And and the way we talk about anxiety with kids is, you know, we all have intrusive thoughts. If we're not anxious, the intrusive thought comes in and it goes out. If we're anxious, the intrusive thought comes in and it gets stuck. And we call it the one loop roller coaster with kids because it's like the one loop roller coaster at the fair and whatever their thought is, they just looping around and around and around.
Sissy Goff:And so those questions are often reflective of the loop, which is why they keep asking and keep asking and keep asking. And one of the things I read in the research that I thought was fascinating was we should never answer more than 5 questions about the same topic because it's not about the topic anyway. And so when we can have the skills instead of going down the rabbit trail with them about is the airplane gonna crash or is my tummy fluttering because I'm really nauseated and I'm going to throw up or whatever they're stuck on. We're doing them a greater service because truth be told what we see over time is the context for their anxiety, that loop is gonna shift along development. So basically, whatever sounds scariest at that age is where they're gonna get stuck.
Sissy Goff:And the same tools, y'all know this because you're doing it all the time too. The same tools work no matter how the anxiety shows up. And so when we teach them when they're 5 about being away from mom and dad, they're still okay. That same tool is gonna work whether it's about throwing up, whether it's about failing a test, My friends don't wanna be friends with me or they're a parent and they're looping about, did my child who I can't find on file my phone right now die in a car accident. You know, it's it's gonna carry over.
David Thomas:It certainly can present in the same ways with boys but part of Cissy saying that boys get taken in for help more often is that it with boys tends to look a little less perfectionistic and pleasing and more angry and explosive. And so it's it's as if we kinda can't ignore it. The other way it will present in an academic space is that anxious boys often look restless, fidgety, under focused, inattentive. Some of the very things we think about when we think about ADHD. And I've lost count with the number of boys I've seen over the years who were misidentified with ADHD, but was really an undercurrent of anxiety that was feeding and fueling those patterns of behavior and where I always wanna start there of if we send some of that's there, let's clear out that space of anxiety and then see what we see.
David Thomas:It could be that the 2 coexist. It might be that ADHD really isn't there and anxiety was just driving those behaviors. But I think also within that, Lindsay, I was thinking about when you asked that question and one of the big differences I see from when I started this work till now that is concerning. Cissy wrote a lot about how the 2 most common parenting practices with anxiety are escape and avoidance. So we see kids struggling, we want to pull them out, And I'm seeing more young boys than ever bowing out of, you know, extracurricular sports or club activities and how much I think emotional and social development happens in those contexts that they're not getting those offerings, those opportunities to develop.
David Thomas:And then fast forward, I'm seeing fewer boys than ever interested in getting their driver's permit and their driver's license, Fewer boys than ever who are getting part time jobs, fewer boys than ever who are asking a girl to a homecoming dance. And all of those opportunities from being a part of a sports team all the way up to homecoming involve what I call healthy risk. And I'm greatly concerned that we're pulling boys out of opportunities for healthy risk, not moving them toward opportunities for healthy risk and how foundational I feel like that is to their sense of self. I think adult males are always asking the question of do I have what it takes even when they're not aware they're asking it? And I think for a boy to be able to answer that question for himself growing up, he has to have those contexts of stretching and growing and feeling overwhelmed and working through that in those different places.
David Thomas:And so that's a big trend. I've seen the other obvious significant difference is technology. And we could talk all day about the concerns we carry in that space and how I think that has both fed and fueled that tendency for boys to want to engage in real life less because they're content to be home with a headset on and only interacting in those ways. And also how we see it feeding and feeling anxiety for so many kids, everything from social media to all the different ways and places that I think it's playing a role. And that's not us saying kids can't have access with good healthy limits at the right ages.
David Thomas:But it is to say we do carry great concern and that's a whole different animal from when we started this work 30 years ago.
Lindsey Nobles:How, David, how do we like kids that are maybe like opting out of the risky situation, seemingly risky situations? How do you start to push them towards, like, joining a school team if they don't want to? It's just hard to know the balance of, like, when to push and when to let them have a voice and an opinion on what they're doing.
David Thomas:Yes. You know, I love the mindset of let's pick something every year. And, you know, I think about how many we have several schools in our community that, you know, the last period of the day, it's required to pick an activity, which I kinda love that because it takes the battle out of it. But even if your kids are in a school where that's not required, I think we can require it as a family. And I would challenge parents be modeling that as well.
David Thomas:Like, guess what? I'm gonna take up boxing and I've never done it before. And I feel really nervous about doing this. And I can, I'm going to be terrible at it in the beginning. And so talking around those different activities we're taking up that are new and feel scary and we're not great at in the beginning and we have to work hard at.
David Thomas:But I think the other part of that, too, is no allowing activities and experiences to be a little bit like shirts for kids, you know, trying on different shirts. I like the way this fits. I don't like the way that fit. So I'm not necessarily concerned about kids who are trying on a lot of different shirts. I'm more concerned about kids who are just not interested in any more trying on, and so I think there is something great about the challenge of saying to kids, I want to help you find your way to the things you love.
David Thomas:Now, if you have trouble picking something, guess what? I'll pick for you And we can even be playful in that as a way of saying again for me with boys in sports, it's not about being a part of an athletic experience as much as I just want you moving your body all the time because that's so foundational to health and well-being, particularly as you get to pre med and late adolescents, like there really shouldn't be a day that you don't have an opportunity to release all of the 5 to 7 surges of testosterone that are pouring through your body a day. It's just going to impact every part of who you are. So I think there's something about that mindset that is good and helpful to adopt on the front side. And then it's kinda like, yeah, that's just what we've always done in our family.
David Thomas:We've always all gotta pick something.
Hannah Warren:Something that I love that's, I don't know a ton about the offerings that you have at Daystar, but I know in some cases you curate group work with kids and social skills work. And, obviously, at Onsite we're very passionate about group work. And I wonder if that's an environment where you're seeing some of this healthy risk be able to be modeled, be able to be practiced. What are some of the benefits you see of kids? I feel like, obviously, when I was a kid, therapy wasn't super a thing, but group therapy was definitely not a thing.
Hannah Warren:And so I love that that's a a thing that's being introduced to both kids and grown ups alike. But how do you see that as a healthy option for kids that maybe need to practice some of that healthy risk or need to, stretch some of their social muscles?
Sissy Goff:I feel like group, there's so many beautiful things about group. And 1, as you know I mean, as kids get older in particular, the voices of their parents get quieter and the voices of their peers get louder. And so to have a group of kids who are speaking truth into each other's lives about who they each are when they're questioning so much of who they are, who are encouraging them, who are challenging them is really significant. And, and I think one of the things I love, especially about groups, and we are very intentional about them giving to each other in groups. So I'm entering this group to talk about myself and process what's going on with me.
Sissy Goff:But in the process, I end up doing a lot of giving to other kids. And and in an age where we're seeing more social anxiety than ever before, it can often feel like I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say to someone who's having a hard time. I don't know how to ask deeper questions. I mean, y'all are sitting with adults who don't
Lindsey Nobles:know how to do those things. Yeah. I mean,
Hannah Warren:I don't know how to do
Lindsey Nobles:it sometimes. Yes.
Sissy Goff:And so I love that we're getting to teach 5th graders how to sit up with someone else in a struggle and to see that they can not only share their hurt, but they can give to somebody else out of that in a way that can really be life changing for that child. So they are taking these risks in these beautiful ways where the the backside of that is I'm seeing that my life matters, that my story matters.
Hannah Warren:Yeah.
David Thomas:I would only add that I think it's an invaluable context for helping kids build empathy and awareness. And those are 2 of the social milestones we talk a lot about. And it's been fun to see that happen. But how much practice I think has to take place? I was thinking back to your question a little bit earlier about how we knew we were made for this work.
David Thomas:And and it's fascinating to me how many first born boys I've worked with over the years that I will feel elements of my story. And years ago, you all I had a second to 4th grade boys group. And it just happened that this 1 year they were all first borns and the most instinctive theme within that particular group was to tattle on each other, which I think first born, any gram ones are so good at pointing out when others aren't doing the right thing, and we had to practice working within that instinct and also with boys of all ages. I talk a lot about how they instinctively, because I think we are competitive creatures by nature, can develop relational strategies around competing even in relationship. So I think it happens when, you know, boys are together and one boy's like, I scored the winning goal in my soccer game and no one instinctively thinks to say congratulations or man.
David Thomas:What was that like? It's I said a PR and track. It's like this one upping and dominating of each other and so we practice and group often what does it look like to be for someone and not against? What does it look like to move against that instinct to 1 up and dominate or compete in conversation and really before. And that is again a learned skill and has to become a practice skill.
David Thomas:It's not necessarily an instinctive skill. And I love that group offers a unique context for that.
Lindsey Nobles:Y'all have both mentioned a couple of times you're, that first born. And I'm curious, you know, have raising an only child, just birth order and how much that plays into the work that y'all do. It just being a parent and on the other side of it, it you realize how dramatically different someone's upbringing will be based on their birth order. And if they're an only child or a twin or the youngest or the middle child, oldest child, how how do y'all incorporate birth order into your work, and what trends do you see around that?
Sissy Goff:I think a lot as we talk with parents. And, Lindsay, I feel so passionate about your little guy because, I mean, I am the oldest, but I was raised in only. So so much of my formative years, and I met with a mom this past week who was an only. And she said one of my highest priorities is to make sure that my daughter is on a team forever. Mhmm.
Sissy Goff:Because she said, I never learned how to work with other people. And I certainly feel that to be true in my life. And and so I think that what I've experienced, I feel so strongly about helping parents with only children learn things like that. Like
Lindsey Nobles:Yeah.
Sissy Goff:Kids need to be disappointing other people and see they're still in relationship. You know? So many things. And, really, that's probably firstborn as well. But I do think it probably informs a lot of what we're aware of that kids need.
Sissy Goff:And so leaning in with parents on, okay, your middle child is really typically as much as we can think it's stereotypical. It really is kind of true that they're gonna feel lost a lot of times, and they're gonna have a harder time finding their voice. And so where are pockets that you can give them spaces to do that? Twins, I think I was out with parents of twins recently and both of their daughters were doing the exact same activities. And I said, okay, we gotta we gotta find something separate for those twins so that they can find their space and find who they are as opposed to that twin or different than that twin.
Sissy Goff:And so I feel like it informs a lot of our conversations.
David Thomas:You know, I would only add that it's certainly true that not every kid fits squarely within the profiles of birth order, but it is fascinating how many do. And it's even fun for me. I don't know if you do this ever, but I will on occasion when I meet with kids, not look at the paperwork and try to guess. And it is fascinating to me how often I will be with really fun, relaxed kids that I'll think you are a 3rd born. I feel pretty certain that you may be the youngest.
David Thomas:And so and how often I think firstborns give themselves away. And in back to even what Cissy said that they are so often kids who think, care, and feel deeply, and they make remarkable human beings, and sometimes they can be so unbelievably hard on themselves. You know, that deep thinking also translates to overthinking and a lot of moments and so we love that opportunity to help kids wherever they fall in birth order develop more in those places that aren't as podcast.
Hannah Warren:Erin
Mickenzie Vought:is the author of someone other than a mother. Podcast. Erin is the author of Someone Other Than A Mother, and something we talked about in that conversation has fundamentally changed the way I parent. Honestly, it was probably the catalyst for disrupting my family and moving us across the country last year to be closer to our extended family. Erin talked a lot about doing the work of parenting in community.
Mickenzie Vought:She said that she is better off as a mother when there are other adults in her life who are essential to her and her children. I have certainly found that to be a game changer in my parenting journey. I have begun to build a larger community within which I can parent. I am eternally grateful for the many loving, supportive grown ups in my girls' lives. Many of whom are not parents themselves, but have committed to coming alongside me and helping me raise my kids.
Mickenzie Vought:Hannah asked a beautiful question pertaining to this, and I love the intentionality with which she goes about supporting the kiddos and parents in her life.
Hannah Warren:I, as a non parent, and I'm sure we have lots of nonparents listening, I'm curious just about maybe your encouragement to those who have kids or impact kids in their lives, whether they're aunts, uncles, or teachers, coaches. How can we contribute to raising these emotionally smart kids? How can we join with parents? How can we be a part? Why is that important?
Hannah Warren:Why do we need the non parents as well in helping contribute to raising these kids?
Sissy Goff:I love that question. And I I mean, I think any of us, if we're honest and look back at our own childhoods, can probably answer that question. Because I think we can all think of adults who made an investment in us that weren't our parents that really impacted so significantly who we are. I mean, I could tell you names like that. And I think one of my favorite things I ever read is from Larry Crabb, who was a psychologist that informed a lot of what we do at Daystar.
Sissy Goff:And he said, everybody wants someone who will jump up and down over them. And there are seasons of life. It's especially hard for parents to jump up and down over their kids because they're in conflict, because the kids are in the middle school, the hardest stretch, whatever it is. And I think as those of us who are on the periphery, we get to do that. And and we will say to our counselors, sometimes the very best gift we give a kid is just being someone who likes them unconditionally.
Sissy Goff:And that that causes more movement than anything else. All the tools, all the things. And so I think we have a really unique ability as aunts and uncles and teachers and different people on the sidelines to speak to the truth of who they are that's different, that can really inform how they see themselves.
David Thomas:You know, I think in mid and late adolescence in particular, kids are craving what we call other voices. And it is just a valuable time when there are other trustworthy adults in their lives who are again speaking some of that same truth into their lives. That sounds different than what parents are saying. And we talk about even in young adulthood, how kids are craving what we call a 3rd parent. And every one of us, if we were to think about those 18 to 25 years in particular that there were adults who filled that role in some way for us.
David Thomas:And I love your question because I think it invites every one of us into thinking, okay, where am I in relationship with kids, adolescents, young adults in ways where I could be that or I am that or I could be more of that in some way because I think it's foundational.
Lindsey Nobles:David, since you sometimes when we end the podcast, we just ask people about their own emotional health practices. Is there anything that you're doing daily or weekly that's just helping you stay grounded and connected to yourself?
Sissy Goff:I'm a say silly one and then I'll let David go. I like it.
Hannah Warren:I like it.
Sissy Goff:We were driving over here, each of us coming from separate things, and we were Marco Polo ing. And I said, I don't know what people would say if they need that 90% of our conversations between the 2 of us are about characters on TV shows. Seriously. That we talk about that so much that I think the characters from Palm Royale and Abbott Elementary are getting me through life right now in so many ways because it's not complicated. I don't have to carry anything for them.
Sissy Goff:I don't have to fix anything. And and, obviously, there are a lot of deeper practices that I participate in. But as a one, I need fun, silly, mindless. I do not have to think, do not have to carry things. And TV is is literally one of my best silly practices for self care.
David Thomas:Yes. You
Sissy Goff:could throw in a deeper one or TV.
David Thomas:No, I would echo that. And I think even to your sharing that, Lindsay, we had the great privilege of being with you recently at a service to acknowledge the year anniversary of the Covenant shooting. And I remember going into that week thinking, I've got to watch more comedies right now. Like, I'm carrying so much heaviness at this point. There have got to be moments of pause where I'm laughing because there is so much grieving that's happening around me within me.
David Thomas:And so I think it's foundational and I would say walking and reading are 2 practices that I want to be folding in with consistency always because it changes me. And even to Sissy's wise comment a minute ago, I have a tendency as a one to only read nonfiction. You know, it sounded the sense of I love reading and I should be or could be learning. Also, I'll do that with podcasts and I'm like, no, actually, you should be reading more fiction and you should be learning from podcasts and listening on occasion to just hilarious, ridiculous ones as well. And so I have to work hard in that direction as an Enneagram one, or I can just even make that kind of time and and that context something I'm responsible for and work in some way.
David Thomas:Yeah.
Lindsey Nobles:I love that. I think a lot of us need a lot more levity right now. And the permission that y'all have given us to embrace the Netflix show or to read a silly book is heard and appreciated. So thank you. And thank you so much for all this wisdom and everything you do and all the people you support.
Lindsey Nobles:You really are making a difference, and I'm so grateful.
Sissy Goff:Right back at you guys. Honored to be in it with you.
David Thomas:So incredibly grateful for the work you all are doing. It is so life giving. Thank you.
Mickenzie Vought:Thanks for listening to the Living Centered Podcast. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love for you to consider leaving us a review or rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. It only takes a few seconds to navigate to the show in your app and select the stars to begin your rating. It helps more people find the show and we really appreciate it. Thanks so much.