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Cinema Scope with Andy Nelson takes you on a captivating journey through the ever-evolving landscape of film. Moreover, it offers a unique and engaging perspective on the art of cinema.
Welcome to CinemaScope where we strip away the gloss and dive into the raw unfiltered realms of cinema's most daring movements. I'm Andy Nelson, your guide on this quest to uncover the truth behind the lenses. Today, we're exploring Mumblecore, a fiercely authentic movement that trades polished production for unvarnished intimacy. With handheld cameras, skeletal budgets, and a fearless commitment to capturing the messy realities of everyday life, Mumblecore has redefined the boundaries of independent cinema. Join us as we trace its DIY roots, decipher its improvisational soul, and discover how this unapologetically honest style has forever changed the way we view relationships on screen.
Andy:Joining me today for this conversation, I have a fantastic guest who is, also well versed in the world of Mumblecore cinema, Maria Sanfilippo. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?
Maria:Very well. Thank you. Glad to be here.
Andy:So tell us a little bit bit about yourself. You you studied film. You're you're teaching film. You know, how are you you know, like, what's your place in the in the cinema studies landscape?
Maria:Well, you've just said, that I studied film and, am now teaching film, and I'm doing that at Emerson College, which is in Boston. And I'm really just a cinephile at heart, grew up as a film buff, wrote film criticism from an early age, and then managed to turn it into a way to make a living. So I, think I must be in the right place though because you just mentioned that the show is devoted to daring cinema. And I think that's actually the link that brought me to thinking about Mumblecore, because I've always been interested in cinema that pushes boundaries. I've written 2, monographs, single authored books.
Maria:One about bisexuality in film and television, and the other about what I call provocate auteurs. Filmmakers whose brand is structured around their being provocative in their work. And while I do talk about 1 Mumblecore filmmaker at length no. Actually, 2, Lena Dunham and Desiree Akhavan, both get a chapter of piece in that book. I would actually say that Mumblecore, is aligned with my focus on daring cinema because I would very much argue that it is daring cinema.
Maria:Even if it might not be necessarily what people, you know, think of 1st and foremost when talking about daring cinema. And even though it's been somewhat tangential to the kind of work that I focused on, which is typically about women and LGBTQ filmmakers' work or, representation thereof. And in mostly contemporary American or English language cinema, and also television more recently, I've also been focused on because how could you not? There's a lot of it, and it's really
Andy:good. Right.
Maria:So that's in a nutshell what I do.
Andy:This is gonna be a fantastic conversation with you because it sounds like it's gonna be right in your wheelhouse as far as the types of things you like to study and the types of things these filmmakers are doing in these films, which is incredibly interesting. As we kind of get started with this conversation, let's kind of go back to the early days of Mumblecore. And, you know, it it just emerged in the early 2000. It's it's interesting to see I mean, I grew up with independent cinema really kind of booming in the nineties, you know, the Steven Soderbergh sex lives and videotape, and a lot of that sort of independent cinema, which definitely feels different from where Mambelkor took it. I I felt like the independent cinema in the nineties, people started wanting to be, what can I do that's, that's edgy, that's different, that's, you know, really pushing some bounds with, like, this I don't know, whatever types of style, like the violence or or things like kind of trying to track that Quentin Tarantino type of path or something Robert Rodriguez, you know, really inspired a lot of that independent cinema in the in the nineties?
Andy:And then there's this shift in the early 2000 and, you know, cameras became a lot cheaper. You had a lot better access to affordable equipment, which certainly was a factor that that kept a lot of filmmakers from really, you know, making stuff when they were younger because camera rentals were very expensive, shooting on film was very expensive, a lot of that sort of stuff. And then suddenly, you have this stuff where it's like they're they're breaking a lot of the rules, I guess, you could say as to, like, how you typically would expect a film to go, but they're still making incredibly compelling films. What happened? How did that shift, like, suddenly make sense for people to say, yeah.
Andy:This is something that I wanna see on screen.
Maria:Well, I'll see if I can connect some of the dots there. And I'm glad that you started out by mentioning Sex Lives and videotape because I think that's a really key film. Not only because, you know, as the first film to get a $1,000,000 sale at Sundance, it just kind of landed indie film on the map as a financially viable prospect. But, also, because I would say, unlike the other films you named or the filmmakers you named that do very stylized work, like Rodriguez and Tarantino, and even somebody like Cal Hartley, you know, has this very, kind of aesthetic, identifying quality. With sex lives and videotape, not only the content, but also the style was very unassuming.
Maria:Right? It was really almost a prototype of Mumblecore to come, because it really is just people sitting around in their homes, talking about sex most of the time, or relationships the rest of the time. There are professional actors in that film, but they're acting very naturalistically. And I would say that's also, you know, a progenitor of of what Mumblecore would have. And just these kind of insular microdramas of the everyday is precisely what Mumblecore would choose to focus most of its stories on.
Maria:And I think that came out of several things, and you've already mentioned 1 or 2 in terms of the changes of technology allowing more people to make films more affordably and easily. Right? So just like, you know, in the French new wave, it was suddenly possible to take cameras out into the street and shoot sound, and under bad lighting conditions, right, on location, you saw something similar happening in that early aughts moment, where suddenly we had, you know, Final Cut Pro, and you could edit, you know, on your laptop. We had YouTube. Right?
Maria:Very shortly thereafter, where you could upload your content and get lots of views and maybe go viral overnight, which is what Lena Dunham did, with her early short film, The Fountain. And that launched, of course, tiny furniture and then Girls.
Andy:Right. Yeah.
Maria:The web series, right, on all of these, file sharing, sites and programming sites like Myspace or what were the other early ones. They're already vanished in my mind because they're more or less defunct, I'm sure, now. But Yeah. Right. They made for a forum to not only make the work, but also show the work, and get the work funded sometimes, right, with crowd funded sources, that the kind of early Internet era allowed for.
Maria:So all of that kind of enabled the process to get underway and then to, you know, get scalable, however, incrementally. And then maybe also then taken to the next level in terms of financing at a higher budgetary level, and that wasn't hard to do because the original budgetary level was 0 budget. That's right. Exactly. That's so loud.
Maria:Yeah. And so the way that that became possible for people like the Duplass brothers to then, you know, actually make studio films after their debut feature, the Puffy Chair, got such acclaim at South by Southwest was because we were in this wonderful moment in which we were actually seeing what Mark Duplass went on to call, later, middle class movies. Right? These movies that were, like, $5,000,000, $10,000,000 budgets, and they were able to get funding and exist in a not yet oversaturated mediascape just before, you know, the streaming wars got fully underway. And you also had this wonderful, fortuitous outcome of the media conglomeratization of so many studios that were suddenly bought up by these giant, you know, behemoths like cable vision that because they were able then to basically protect risk, they didn't mind setting up these, what were called, specialty divisions within their infrastructure.
Maria:Right? And those divisions would provide the financing for these low concept films that didn't seem like they would have much in the way of financial viability beyond a pretty niche market. But we were, you know, already seeing the beginnings of Netflix, and so there was thereafter a lot more call for content. Right? We needed to fill those libraries of, movie subscription services, and then after that, over the top, streaming on demand services.
Maria:So it was just this wonderful moment more than it was a movement, that allowed for this pretty fine tuned, indie aesthetic, that certainly didn't appeal to everybody. It was, you know, very much, a specialized taste to to find footing. And to answer the call. And I think this is another really important factor in thinking about why did it come about when it did. To answer the call that, actually, the film critic for the New York Times, A.
Maria:S. Scott, proclaimed, that we needed what he termed a neo neorealist movement. And he was, of course, hearkening back to the Italian neorealist films of the post World War 2 era that had this real economy of means. Right? They were films that were made in the wake of war, in the struggling nation and were about everyday people and their struggles and used everyday people instead of, you know, professional actors and used on location sets instead of sound stages.
Maria:I think Scott saw an importance in that as not just an aesthetic approach to making film, but also an ethical approach to making film. I I mean, we were already by the turn of the millennium at a point when the typical Hollywood studio film, like, the average film, had a budget of about $150,000,000. So that's on average, and that's insane, quite frankly.
Andy:No. They they really kind of spiked. Yeah. Because, yeah, the nineties was like the indie film cinema kind of had this thing, but then Hollywood just kind of kept growing in this other direction.
Maria:Absolutely. They went to for the tent poles. Right? They put all of their chips into the blockbusters.
Andy:Some could say they haven't learned that lesson yet.
Maria:Yes. Still trying to learn that lesson. But I think what Scott saw was that there was this, oppositional demand for something different. Right? Something to counter that Hollywood style that was more about well, what had been kind of brewing already globally, and was called there slow cinema.
Maria:If you recall this term slow food that was sort of hot at this time. So cinema was a kind of, you know, tandem way of thinking about making films as very local and about duration oftentimes. Right? These were films that kind of unfolded a glacial pace, but they're very much about observation and contemplation of the world around us. And they were sort of used to resist this ever more hyperproductive world in which we're constantly working and constantly moving.
Maria:Right? And trying to push back against that. And I think we could see mumblecore as an offshoot of that more global slow cinema movement and more neo neorealist aesthetic and ethic that Scott was calling for.
Andy:And I think, also, after the boom of independent cinema in the nineties, film festival proliferation kind of, became a thing. Like, it was crazy. Like, every community needed to have their own little festival. And I think that gave a lot of these filmmakers a platform to to share their films. Right?
Andy:Before, when it was just those few big festivals, it was harder to get in. And so it was always just those few that were rising to the top, but once once it just kind of kept growing, it allowed for a lot more of those voices to kind of be, be discovered.
Maria:Yes. And I think if Sundance were the key festival for those nineties indie filmmakers that you were referencing, South by Southwest is the key festival for the Mumblecore. And, Matt Dittler is the person who was the kind of Robert Redford, I guess, you'd say of South by Southwest. Right? The sort of impresario who programmed the festival and who loved Mumblecore and was one of the first people to use that term and used it very cannily as a brand, right, to Yeah.
Maria:Group together this somewhat disparate, you know, selection of films and filmmakers, who didn't really like being grouped under this moniker.
Andy:Right. I know.
Maria:Yeah. And I think it really was a helpful way to signal through the increasing clutter of content, as we now have come to call it, that there was, if not a movement, a moment of exciting filmmaking happening, and it was being celebrated, 1st and foremost, in Austin at South by Southwest on big screens, which it would thereafter maybe not have as much opportunity to be seen in the theater. Right? Because theaters were increasingly showing only those superhero movies, or they were shuttering, or, we were just preferring to stay at home and watch things on our increasingly on our laptops and, in our home viewing environments. And I think Mumblecore, going back to the question about aesthetics, really plays well to those small screens.
Maria:They're very talky. They use a lot of close ups on faces. They're often shot in these interiors, so they don't need these kinda, like, you know, panoramic vistas. They don't benefit from having, you know, 70 millimeter projection. One of the member corps, Andrew Bujalski, still stuck with making film on film, on celluloid.
Maria:Yeah. But most of the mumblecore would increasingly turn towards digital video, which, you know, we just touched on, but it's a very important, additional factor here that this was the digital revolution. What made possible the superhero movies and all of their CGI was also what was making possible the mumblecore films with these, you know, tiny digital cameras that you were able to shoot really cheaply on and then edit yourself, you know, quite easily.
Andy:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's such an interesting term. I know I know they don't like the term, but it is interesting how it kind of stuck.
Andy:But it is a very handy term to kind of define this movement in in film that we have here. It's kind of funny having talked about ausploitation a few episodes ago. That also is a term that, you know, people aren't thrilled with, but it stuck, and it really has helped at least at the very least kind of get those films being talked about and and seen more often, which, you know, so I guess there's a a good and bad to it. But, also, like, the interesting thing, ausploitation is a very recent term that came from that, the documentary that that was made about it. Likewise, mumblecore, it's not just a recent term.
Andy:It's a recent movement. Like, this is, like, perhaps I mean, it certainly is the newest, kind of genre that I've talked about on this show, and it's, you know, it's all within the last 20 20 ish years that this this movement has happened. So it's a very, very recent shift in independent film, which is, you know, pretty interesting.
Maria:Yeah. People say it's the first major or really the first and maybe only film movement American film movement of the 21st century thus far. There were some other really exciting movements happening around the world that I think coincided with what I was saying earlier was the slow cinema style or mode, that became popular, like the Romanian new wave or the Taiwanese, films of Siaming Liang. You know, there are other people working across the globe, Hong Song soo in South Korea, who are making very mumblecore like films, but it was definitely a movement that was rooted in the US. Yeah.
Maria:That moniker, however unfortunate, did stick. It is catchy. It came from a sound designer on one of the films or a sound recordist, I guess, on one of the films who, as we were talking about before the interview started, you know, sound is so crucial and so hard to capture audibly and expertly. And this guy, Eric Masunaga, was having a lot of trouble doing just that because these people were talking off the cuff, improvise. Right?
Maria:There were very infrequently scripts. Right? Full scripts. Sure. Yeah.
Maria:Yeah. The production of these films. And trying to really be in the moment and get that kind of fly on the wall capturing of people saying what comes to them is really tough, and, hence, I guess, why they were thought to be mumblers. But I don't know. It's, I think, important to treat the films on their own, treat the filmmakers on their own even while seeing these similarities or trends that tie them together.
Maria:They're really all very individual, as makers. That said, they all worked together. Right? There's such a Yeah. Well dense web of collaboration among these Yeah.
Andy:We'll definitely talk about that as we go through our our films because there's a lot of collaboration as we as we will see as we, talk through these films. Before we jump into the the list of films, and, again, we'll be talking about 5 films over the course of this, episode. And then for our members, you'll be able to hear us talk about 5 more films, in the, after show. But we'll be talking about funny the puffy chair, Hannah takes the stairs, quiet city, and Francis which, should be a fun lineup. Before we jump into that, though, I mean, you talked about some of those core components like the we were just talking about kind of like the the dialogue that they're just kind of, coming up with onset they're ad libbing, and it's very naturalistic the way that they're performing.
Andy:We talked about the the, video cameras, kind of the cheaper equipment that they were filming with. What are some of the other core components as we look at this that really kind of helps define what Mumblecore is?
Maria:Well, I think there was a real investment in letting things unfold as they would naturally, and yet being aware as you have to be in that postmillennial moment that you're being recorded. Right? That you're on camera. Right? Because these are kids that grew up.
Maria:They are millennials, the people who made these films. Right? So they were raised with home movies, with personal recording devices. Right? Tracking their every move probably since birth.
Maria:And and then, you know, we were in the early years of the Internet, so then there was that factor as well. Right? Where we were becoming more inclined towards virtual modes of communication, and then thereafter, ever more ubiquitous, a sense that our lives were mediated. Right? That we were living on screens, and that the moments of our life and our social lives, you know, most importantly, were being chronicled, right, for posterity or, you know, future humiliation, take your pick.
Maria:But, we were just kind of constantly on camera.
Andy:Yeah. Right. Right.
Maria:And so I do think that the mumble core filmmakers were very cognizant of that and of kind of living life as it as if in a movie all the time. Right? And so these were films that oftentimes actually foreground or thematize filming. You know, oftentimes, the characters such as they are are filmmakers, and they're playing a version of themselves, the filmmakers. Right?
Maria:So there's a lot of that. There's a lot of focus on what I think millennials are known for focusing on, which is this quest for authenticity, for realness, but also with this kind of awareness of irony, cringiness, awkwardness. That whole post 911 idea that irony was dead was clearly a miscall because we saw a lot of what are called smart films in that era that were kind of existing alongside mumblecore films. I'm thinking of, like, Wes Anderson or,
Andy:Oh, sure. Yeah.
Maria:You know, even earlier like Todd Salons. These are films that are kind of mumblecore adjacent, I would say. But they have stars. They have scripts, and they're very ironic and knowing. Right?
Maria:And knowing about media, but in a kind of distancing way. Whereas, I would say, Mumblecore is very knowing about media, but in a in a earnest way. Right? Not so ironic and distanced. And they really lean into that appeal for intimacy and realness.
Maria:And I think that's where the magic happens with mumblecore. Right? That's where you see this, I think, really kind of sometimes brutally, and oftentimes really movingly honest depictions of interpersonal relationality that do actually seem fairly unscripted, you know, fairly natural. And I think we were looking for something maybe at this point that that served to maybe, regain a sense of trust in media, a sense of trust in one another. Right?
Maria:You know, this is also the the Bush years, the Iraq war years. Right? And some people have accused the Mambul Korps of being too solipsistic, of being too navel gazing, of being too white, of being too straight. You know, there's a lot of allegations. Some fair or at least important fair, allegations to be made about Mambalcourt.
Maria:But, I think there's also just a sense of humility about it. Right? Instead of feeling like we as American cultural imperialists had the right to just go trample whatever foreign nation with our guns or our cameras, right, you know, the parallel between the two has been made, these filmmakers were instead choosing to stay at home, quite literally. Right? They were turning the camera on themselves and turning it inwards on their lives.
Maria:And, yeah, that is navel gaze y, but it's also something that they knew. And they kind of I felt like maybe wanted to stay in their lane.
Andy:Well and it speaks to the idea of, like, you know, what they tell writers. Write what you know, and filmmakers, you know, make make something do it do what you know, what you're close to. And I think for a lot of filmmakers and I remember when I was in film school, I'm like, what does that actually mean? You know, they're like, is it just a story about, like, my life? You know, what is that?
Andy:And trying to figure out what that is, and I think this is a perfect depiction of that. I mean, it's not just young filmmakers. It's young characters. Often, the filmmakers themselves acting in it or all their collaborators acting in the films too. So these are films about this group of people, these 20 somethings, trying to figure their lives out, right, and trying to make sense of everything that's going on around them, anxieties about getting a job, not just a job, but a job that means something as you were saying, like, that that that is gonna be important to them where they can be making a difference and trying to figure that out and figuring out relationships and what does that mean.
Andy:And and, you know, just the idea of, like, maybe you're already in a relationship, but how does that does that is that defining you now? Well, certainly, in our member bonus, we'll be talking about hump day, a Lynn Shelton's film. And there's certainly an element of that as Mark Duplass's character is trying to figure out what does this actually mean? Like, why do I so desperately need to go through with this this act? And and so I think there's a real element to all of this that speaks to who these characters are.
Andy:And you can write that off as navel gazing. I get that. But at the same time, I just feel like it's these people trying to be authentic to who they are. And, I mean, they're very open and vulnerable in a lot of these films as regardless of how they're written. I think there are still a lot of vulnerability kind of shines through with the characters, and I think that's something that definitely speaks to the way that they're telling these stories.
Maria:Yes. And I would actually say, in response, one other way in which we could frame thinking about mumblecore and another way that I just intuited connects it to my other work. These are films about relationships, but I think we could call them not romantic comedies, but radical romantic comedies. Right? Radical romcoms, which is, something that I edited a collection a a talk that I edited a a collection of essays on, but also, a term that's been around for a while now because it really goes back to the 19 seventies when filmmakers like Woody Allen and Paul Mazurski and others were making these romantic comedies that were about the way relationships really really are, not the way we wish they were, right, with the wish fulfillment of Hollywood Yeah.
Maria:Stylized Right.
Andy:Right. Right.
Maria:Romantic comedies. And I would say that these mobile core films are just that. Right? They are films that are about the way relationships really are, especially in the modern era when you don't wait to have sex until after marriage. Right?
Andy:You don't
Maria:even have to get married necessarily. And trying to figure all that out, and also manage all the other things that the people in those Hollywood rom coms never seem to have to worry about. Right? Jobs, money, their friends, you know, your peer group, your living situation, increasingly being in a relationship that was long distance. Right?
Maria:Because people are living all over the place, connecting via social media means or at least, you know, Internet means. So I think those are all factors that really fuel, a kind of resurgence for romantic comedies of not just the bromance, right, style that was coming to the fore at this time, but something like Hump Day, which was really, I think, a kind of anti bromance. Right? Or at least it was an alt bromance. And we can get into that.
Maria:But, yeah, I think a lot of these films you could actually think about as what, you know, the the tagline for Annie Hall, an awkward romance. Right? Oh, yeah. Or it was an anxious romance. Either way, it's, you know
Andy:Yeah.
Maria:Awkward and anxious, pretty much describes all of the romancing that's happening in all of these films, not all of which end with couple formation. Right? A lot of them are uncoupling comedies where they break up at the end or never got together in the first place.
Andy:Right. Right. Right. The you mentioned that that kind of, the idea of the radical romantic comedy, which is a really interesting way to look at it. Also, I think it's just like in the scope of calling this a a movement or a genre, would you say there are also some subgenres within it, or are they all kind of fitting into that element of it?
Andy:I mean, they definitely all have humor and drama, and there's kind of the relationship. So I can see kind of I that that makes sense to call it that. But are there other things that we could also see that fall under mumblecore?
Maria:Well, you know, there's actually been an offshoot of Mumblecore called Mumblecore that is
Andy:I have heard that.
Maria:Sort of the the brainchild, I guess, of people like Ty West is somebody who's often associated with them. The Duclasse brothers who were the sort of incubator for the creep and creep 2 films. And Duclasse is actually in creep 2 with Desiree Akhavan, another Mumblecore filmmaker. Because, you know, horror was becoming such a huge phenomenon along the same time. Not so much in the odds.
Maria:I mean, we did see, like, the Saw franchise and the Hostel franchise in the odds. The really key film though to mention here is The Blair Witch Project, which came out in 1999 at Sundance and had this really revolutionary Internet campaign, early. Right? Internet campaign for publicizing the film and getting this kind of cult audience, right, to answer
Andy:the details of what's coming.
Maria:And I think, you know, Mumblecore took a nod from that too. Right? That way of promoting yourself online and also just the do it yourself filmmaking that The Blair Witch Project so amazingly and memorably thematized through, you know, it its whole how much of this is real conceit. So I think it's it's kind of fascinating, but, you know, not, improbable that mumblecore gave way to something called mumble gore since there still is such an appetite for horror, and they did have that kind of, you know, do it yourself aesthetic, in common from the start.
Andy:I I can imagine that, people like Mark Duplass probably reveled in the fact that they could call it mumble gore since they already didn't like mumble gore. Just like finding a way to just, like, twist that into something like that is kind of funny.
Maria:Yes.
Andy:Well, to really start understanding all these different components and everything, let's take this and dig into our first film. This is Andrew Bojalski's funny the story of this, Marni is a recent college graduate, and she's navigating uncertainties of her adulthood, of romance, of friendship, while in Boston. And as she start going to find direction and purpose, her interactions with her friends and potential love interests reveal the complexities of post college life. So how does this film exemplify some of these components that we're talking about?
Maria:Well, it's certainly, as you were saying, a film that is about that listless feeling of being in between. Right? That liminality that one gets, it it takes place during a summer, which is this kind of liminal moment post graduation, but before, you know, the workforce seems to really be calling. So you see Marni just kind of hanging out, working a temp job, going to parties at night, or, you know, going out to dinner with friends, and feeling like she doesn't have a clear purpose, right, or a clear sense of where her her next move will be. And so she finds herself falling into relationships, right, that, you know, very passively, even if she's not entirely, you know, on board, right, with the attentions of some of these suitors, or are they really sincere in, you know, their seeming enticements to her.
Maria:Right?
Andy:Yeah. Right.
Maria:Yeah. So I, you know, I think it's it sets a a prototype for Mambo Cor to come with all of its cringe inducing scenes. Bujovsky himself plays one of the supporting roles as a suitor, and he's, I think, great in the role. But I think he's also canny enough to know to take the back seat to his star, Kate Dolanmeier, who is wonderful in the role. I don't know if she's ever really acted since.
Maria:I know she's gone into this really interesting career as a film archivist and preservationist, but
Andy:Oh, wow.
Maria:I thought she gave a really appealing performance and is also, you know, our female protagonist. And I think this is important to mention because so many of the especially the first generation of Mumblecore filmmakers, at least the ones that were being touted, were men, and they would often be about men characters and Bujalski or at least men protagonists. Right? Central characters.
Andy:Sure.
Maria:Sure. And Bujalski was and is an exception to that rule. Not to say he never made a film with a male protagonist, but I think, you know, he's made some really fine films about women's inner lives, that I think he does into it quite movingly and and, you know, effectively.
Andy:Yeah. Right. This is this was, 2,002, and the I mean, it's kind of referred to as, like, the first mumblecore. I mean, I know there were some things potentially I mean, it's it's always an evolution as things are growing and changing. But is it just all of this?
Andy:Like, the that the the way that it just, like, conversations feel awkward but authentic in some way? We're following Marnie. She's trying to figure out what to do with her life. I've it's funny. This is one of those you read the reviews, and it's either people who really click with it and just, like, absolutely love it or people like, what am I watching?
Andy:Why am I watching this this boring film about this person who can't figure out what to do? And, like, they just can't click with it. And it's just, like, really, strongly bifurcated as far as, like, opinions on the film. Is that part of, like, the the evolution of mumblecore? Like, it hit this point in filmmaking where this is what people were getting, and and some people who got it were like, yes.
Andy:Finally.
Maria:I certainly felt that way when I saw it. Right? It just it struck that, yeah, that chord with me. I also it had local interest. I'll confess as well.
Maria:It was actually shot in Cambridge close to where I'd gone to college and actually has some scenes set on the campus of my college. So that was exciting to see as well. So I I liked that aspect of it. But I think, yeah, more importantly, it just it had this feeling of getting me, getting the characters right that I thought resembled me. I'm a little older.
Maria:I'm I'm gen x, so not quite seeing these films at the age that the characters who are portrayed are. But, remembering back, you know, having the having those 20 something post collegiate years recent enough in the rear view that I could maybe appreciate them from a more distant perspective and not be as tormented by them, as some seem to feel they were torturous. I I get the sense that people who find them torturous, it's because they are so slow. And, again, it's all relative. If you've seen the films of someone like Sai Ming Liang or Zha Jun Ke or the Romanian New Wave filmmakers, then that's slow.
Maria:Right? These films are actually not that slow, and they're not that long either. I mean
Andy:No. That's, yeah, they're all very brief.
Maria:Very brief because they were cheap. So, you know, I think with Bujovsky, he was touted as being the kind of second coming of his mentor, Chantal Ackerman, who he studied with at Harvard Oh, okay. Where he'd recently graduated from. I was gonna bring her name
Andy:up when you're talking about some of those slower films. Exactly. Speaking of slow cinema. Yeah. She wrote the book.
Maria:And so, yeah, I think, you know, he was he was treated by some of these early critics and fans as having this kind of, more, I don't know, bona fide artistic flair or credentials. You know, he shot on film. You know, funny was shot on 16 millimeter. It won awards. Right?
Maria:You know, he was given an indie spirit award. It got some good reviews. People like, you know, Denis Lim and Amy Taubman, who were singing his praises. Right? These these respectable critics who saw in his work something that kind of hearkened back to filmmakers like Cassavetes, or Soderbergh, who saw that beauty that came from being able to let things unfold without a kind of dictatorial control that we have come to associate with the auteur.
Maria:Right? It was a different a different mode of directing where you gotta get out of the way instead of telling people what to do. Right? And I think they respected that. Critics and fans respected that.
Andy:It's a it's a very different way of of telling these stories because they do feel like sometimes the camera just lingers on one character through a whole conversation. And, it's it's like a directorial choice where we're not cut you know, doing cut shot reverse shot over the course of the the conversation. It's just we're gonna just hold here. It could be budget. They could be just saving on on film by just getting it all here.
Andy:We got it. We got everything we need, but it also could just be part of the the way that they're choosing to tell the story. And it's like, it gives us a sense of that unfinished feel and and kind of it it does lend to it feeling a little more raw. And I think that's an interesting element that you have when they choose to do it that way. Another element that we certainly see here is we're definitely starting to see how collaborative it is.
Andy:Like, aside from a number of the different faces that we'll be seeing over the course of these these films we're talking about, just how layered they are in the credits as far as many hats. Right? They're all just it's like it's it's indie filmmaking at its core. It's like we're all just gonna jump in together and we'll do whatever job we need to to get the thing done. And I think that's a really exciting element that we have in the way that, we are certainly seeing here with what Bojalski puts together, but certainly as it kind of continues going.
Maria:Absolutely. Yeah. It's like about putting on the show. Right? You gotta get the movie made.
Maria:Everyone's chipping in. And that reminds me of another, I think, important factor here that Movable Core was growing out of and responding to, which is reality television, which had become this kind of juggernaut by, you know, the odds because there were these big hits like Survivor, but also because it was cheap to make. And that would become, you know, increasingly important once there was a strike. Right? There was, you know, the last big strike, in Hollywood of, labor, you know, resulted in their needing to find something to put on television and reality TV became it.
Maria:But, also, yeah, just because, you know, those so called reality shows weren't so realistic. It came to be known. Right? That they were very, not maybe scripted, but certainly they were designed. Right?
Maria:They were Yeah. Yeah. People were provoked into having, dramas, on camera, and then they were edited selectively. Right? To hype the drama even more.
Maria:And so I think these are the same kind of structure. You put a bunch of people in a house, right, and and see what happens. But they weren't about getting these big dramatic climaxes. They were about documenting the micro dramas. Right?
Maria:The, you know
Andy:Exactly. Yeah.
Maria:More muted tipping points in relationships, among people of this age.
Andy:Well, that gives us a good sense, you know, talk about funny in a lot of this. We've talked about the roots of of Mumblecore. Let's jump into the rest of these films, and really kind of explore how this movement really kind of came into its own and continue to evolve over time. The first, that we have in this, the rest of our list is, Jay and Marc Duplass' film from 2,005, the puffy chair. And I you know, the first thing that I suppose you could say we're getting here is there's a little bit more of a story here.
Andy:Right? It's it's actually like a a a musician. Josh is a struggling musician, and he decides to go on this road trip with his, girlfriend, Emily, to give this old purple recliner that he has to his dad as a birthday gift. And so they're gonna drive down the coast and give this to him. Along the way, they stop and pick up his quite eccentric brother, Rhett.
Andy:And, over the course of the rest of the film, it's really navigating the relationship with his brother, with his, with his girlfriend, and kind of figuring who he himself is over the course of the story. And, I mean, really, this is one of those where you're talking about relationships. This certainly takes a less than Hollywood ending, approach with with the relationship for sure. So let's talk about this. This I I I had a lot of fun with this.
Andy:I had never seen this one before. I've always enjoyed the Duplass brothers and the things that they do that I've seen of theirs, but I I had a lot of fun with this. What does this really kind of epitomized, I suppose, as far as what the Du Plasse brothers were bringing to storytelling in the scope of Mumblecore?
Maria:Well, I rewatched this one because I it wasn't that fresh in my mind in anticipation of talking with you today, and I was really glad I did because it was even better than I remembered. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. It's really stood up. Yeah.
Andy:The the whole bit at the hotel when he doesn't want to pay for 3 people, and, like, that whole thing was just laugh out loud funny leading to his his, like, brother finally, like, this chair is cursed, like, burning it in the parking lot. Man.
Maria:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's terrific. It's terrific. I highly recommend it, and I, you know, was reminded of Katie Azelton is a wonderful actor.
Maria:I wish she acted more. She went on to become Duclasse's wife in an interesting I don't wanna spoil too much about the film, but, you know, there's there's a really interesting way to think about this film as the road not taken in Duclasse's relationship with Azelton, his still wife and a filmmaker in her own right of the mumble core. And from the first scene of this film, which I've shown over the years in my romantic comedy courses as an example of the kind of inciting incident that leads a couple to have to struggle to stay together or to question whether to stay together. We call these comedies of remarriage. Right?
Maria:These are comedies in which the couple it's not about getting them together. It's about getting them back together, right, as Stanley Cavell once famously formulated it. And so this is precisely that type of film. Right? The opening sequence shows in agonizing detail just how dysfunctional this couple is.
Maria:And, you know, they talk baby talk because they can't really face up to one another about their needs and desires and say the words that need saying. So instead, they, like, cajole and cuddle with baby talk and deflect and get really furious and overturn the table and stalk out. And that sets this road trip in motion. And it's a road trip. Right?
Maria:So as you said, you know, it does have a story. It's got a very linear narrative that borrows from the hallowed tradition of the road movie. But, of course, it changes it up with this odd cast of eccentric characters and this mission, which isn't to, like, find America or be on the run from the law, but rather to deliver this hideous chair, this maroon velour chair to, you know, the character that Mark Duplass plays, the the 2 brothers, father Yeah. Who was played in fact by the actual mister Duplass and Right.
Andy:Right.
Maria:His wife, missus Duplass. The only one of the Duplass's who's not in the film is Jay Duplass who was behind the camera at this point, and he would go on to become, a well regarded actor and transparent among other projects. But at this point, he was still behind the scenes. So it kind of seemed like Mark was going to be the on camera brother and Jay the behind the scenes brother. And Mark certainly shows his star quality here.
Maria:His leading man status, his gift for comedy and improvisation. You know, he'd be an actor in many of the other, Mumblecore films, including Hump Day. But their bond as brothers and creators who are partnered well, not any longer, but were for many years partnered, I think really comes to the fore here because they did what they do best, which is that they work together under a scarcity of means, to make something and then to get it seen through really ingenious abilities to connect and speak about their work and to also just be at the right time and in the right place because Netflix came calling. Right? You know, this was the moment when they were able to make this sweet deal at Sundance where they already had a short film screen to have their film released through early by mail, red envelope era Netflix, and that made all the difference.
Maria:It got the film seen and promoted and got them to their next film and thereafter. And they've really managed to build not only this brand, they do class brothers, right, as brands, but also they are great mentors to other filmmakers.
Andy:Very important. I mean, we'll get like, when we talk about Tangerine in our member bonus, that that certainly was something that came about because they were behind it.
Maria:Yeah. Yeah. So I'll save that for the for the latter part.
Andy:It's it's great. Hey. Get get them excited to sign up for memberships. Right?
Maria:Exactly.
Andy:Well, so there's a lot of mumblecore elements in this. It does feel very low budget, improvised, all that. And we should just say, this isn't like dogma 95. There's not, like, this rigorous set of rules. If you're not following these rules, then it's not mumblecore.
Andy:You know, it's not quite like that. But it definitely is this low budget independent style of filmmaking. You know, they their parents are in the movie. Their parents largely paid for them to get this movie made. Right?
Andy:They were behind it. And I think there this does feel very, very improvised and the way that the relationship unfolds the relationships are really the the 2 brothers and then the, the, boyfriend and girlfriend over the course of the film. I mean, it just it speaks again to that youthful period in time where you're trying to figure your life out, your direction, your purpose. Again, is he gonna be a musician? He's now trying trying it out to be a a manager and all this.
Andy:Is that really working? He doesn't seem happy. His brother meanwhile is, like, filming, lizards crawling on trees and was, like, a whole different view on on life. And so trying to figure out who you are and then again, your your relationships. And I think that's a big, big part of this film.
Maria:Yeah. And of a lot of other Mumbachor films too. I think you've hit it on the head here that masculinity is really being questioned and troubled. You know, it's it's a sort of arrested development for some of these male characters where they're emergent adults, and yet they're really questioning what is my purpose, what is my career, and also, you know, why marriage? Right?
Maria:Why is that such the, you know, path that is expected of me? And questioning that becomes, you know, the core of what Mark Duplass' character does here, and has this really, you know, staggering conversation with his dad about how, you know, his dad just found himself married one day and how, you know, having more agency over one's life choices, might be a better path to take. And I think I think we'll see that in a lot of these mumblecore films, that are looking at American masculinity at this era post 911, right, where I think this new generation of young people is questioning all of these values that, especially, America has put on men. You know, our president was at that time, you know, evoking Top Gun and, sending troops into the Middle East and just that kind of militant aggression. Right?
Maria:Yeah. Yeah. Being equated with masculinity is something that I think, you know, young American men were pushing against or made to feel very vulnerable if they weren't living up to. And so trying to comb through that conundrum, right, I think becomes a a major topic of introspection for the male protagonist of these films.
Andy:And the female protagonist too as we grow go because the next film we're talking about is Joe Swanberg's 2007 film, Hannah Takes the Stairs. It's about Hannah who's she's recently graduated from college, and she's now trying to figure out a number of different relationships over the course of the film. Mark Duplass is in it as the first relationship that, that we see end pretty quickly. She's working at a production company. Speaking to your point about these are people who often are in the industry.
Andy:Right? They're working at a production company in Chicago. She's trying to figure herself out with her relationships, with her job, and just kind of dealing with all of these challenges and, again, uncertainties of young adulthood, but that's definitely a big part of all of this. So, I mean, at what point are we? Let's just take a quick step back and look at mumblecore from 2,002.
Andy:This is 2,007. The latest the last of the films we're gonna be talking about is Francis 2,012. I mean, is this it's about halfway through. Would you say we're kind of at a peak of when Mambulcore exists? Is there I mean, is there an easily definable peak of Mambo Corps?
Maria:Well, I would say one key year is 2,005, the puffy chair release year, because it was the kind of miracle year as they call it. You know, that's the term they use for the year in which the French New Wave, 1st big films of the filmmakers most associated with that movement came out. And we have something similar here in 2005. We have 3 first films by Mumblecore, key filmmakers come out, or at least, I guess, in, I'm sorry. In in the case of 1, it was the second film because the the so called godfather of Mumblecore, Bajovsky, had already made funny So he makes the second film, mutual, appreciation.
Maria:Swanberg makes his first film. I guess that was LOL. I might need to be fat checked on that. And, did you process, of course, made puffy chair. And the South by Southwest confluence of those 3 and the naming of Mumblecore, right, at that moment was was huge.
Maria:Now by 2007, that's just a couple years later, but Swanberg is, like, just notoriously prolific. I mean, the man makes, like, multiple films a year. And so I'm not even sure how many films he'd made by this point, but, I know in the space of a very short time, maybe just a year or 2, he made 2 films in close, collaboration with Greta Gerwig, the Hannah of the title. And while she did not get directing credit on this one, she did, in fact, get Poe directing credit on the other film they made around this time, nights and weekends, which I really like as well and which I think may have been a better experience for her from what I read about the the kind of history of making Hannah Takes the Stairs. I think it was a difficult shoot, and I think Swanberg works in this most extreme of mumblecore fashions where it really is kind of like a commune, as, the the production is underway.
Maria:Everyone's living together. A lot of times are involved romantically or at least sexually with one another are oftentimes on screen, unclothed, engaged in certain intimate acts. He's really the kind of fast bender of the the mumble core. I mean, he really pushes buttons and guided slash coerced people into going into really raw territory in their performances.
Andy:Well, that speaks to that intimacy. That speaks to that that the the sense of authenticity that we're getting from these when with their they appear so vulnerable. Right?
Maria:Absolutely. And, also, I think it just in some cases, and I'm thinking of the last scene of Hannah takes the stairs, especially, it just serves to kind of desexualize the human body that, you know, in Hollywood history has always had such barriers around being shown nude, you know, and, just such kind of heightened fetishization of nudity, especially female nudity, and using nudity so ubiquitously, but also so playfully as Swanberg does, and so naturally. You know? I mean, the first scene is of Greta Gerwig getting dressed for work, and when you're getting dressed, you're naked for part of the, you know, process. And so just, you know, making the human body just so natural, I think is is a is a it's an asset of his work for sure, but also something that got him a lot of flack and, was challenged in terms of, you know, some of his choices made on sets that he's since, you know, expressed some regret about.
Maria:But he became a far more, I would say, controversial, filmmaker of this group, and got some really derisive reviews from people like Amy Taubman who called him lazy and saw nothing of value in his work. Then again, he has his his adherence. Richard Brody, the New Yorker critic famously put, 2 Swanberg films on his top ten list in 2011, which is amazing in and of itself. And then also when you think about that he made 2 films in that year, he might have even made more than 2 films in that year.
Andy:I'm looking right now. He made 6 films in 2011. Six films. That's that's one every other month.
Maria:Yeah. According to Richard Brody, at least a third of those were, you know Wow. Very noteworthy. Yeah. So he was really making films in this just completely intuitive and role with real life way that I think is really exciting and led to moments of, you know, sheer greatness, but also a lot more kind of loosey and, unstructured than both Pujolski and Duplass.
Andy:Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah.
Andy:And just just to confirm, kissing on the mouth 2005, LOL 2006, and then this in 2007.
Maria:Yes.
Andy:Very busy. And it only gets busier. That's crazy.
Maria:Indeed.
Andy:This I mean, you mentioned Greta Gerwig, and, again, the collaborative elements of this. This is the one I watched a lot of these, back to back, but I believe this is the one that had the even the credits seemed very collaborative in, like, how it described all of the different people and how they kind of came up with the idea and worked on the story and and put the thing together. And I thought that was really interesting and really spoke to the whole nature of what we're getting with these stories. And I suppose particularly with this group of people who are just very much a a team. You know?
Andy:And and you said, like, some of them romantically or sexually, they're they're all involved, but certainly in the work. They're all very much tapped into this type of storytelling and figuring out what how can we make these stories and get these out there? And I think that's a really interesting aspect that I I think that is something I really have never seen. I mean, certainly, you've seen people like Tarantino and Rodriguez connecting and deciding, let's help each other. And and, you know, there there was that point in the nineties where, and I'm gonna forget the other filmmakers, but they did that 4 rooms film, the the, the anthology film.
Andy:And that was a group of filmmakers who they were all kind of working and boosting each other up over over the process of making a number of different films in the nineties, but it never felt as collaborative as this. Like, this is like crazy how much a team this really feels. Like, all of these people, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats. Like, they're all just like, how can we work together to just tell these stories and make everybody's films better? And I think that's really exciting to see as they're coming together.
Andy:And perhaps that speaks again to all of the stuff going on with how they're dealing with the spirit of the times, the zeitgeist with everything going on in the country, in the world.
Maria:Yeah. Absolutely. It was really communal and collective. And, you know, it stopped short of being, I guess, politically codified movements in the way that, you know, you could argue others have been in the past. But I do think that they all shared a sense of urgency and also ability.
Maria:Right? They weren't gonna wait for somebody to give them a job or to give them, the money. Right? They were just gonna make the work. And everyone chipped in, and they learned it as they went.
Maria:And then it becomes this, like, dense web of, like, familial relations when you're watching these films, which pays off for the fan, right, the mumblecore fan who's, who's kind of, you know, patting themselves on the back for recognizing all of these, interrelated figures that are, you know, making the music for that film, but also for that other film, or, you know, are playing these bit roles, but are also mumblecore filmmakers themselves. And they're working in different places. I mean, Swanberg's films are so deeply connected to his hometown of Chicago, I guess, his adoptive hometown of Chicago, and use Chicago, right, as a kind of character oftentimes, certainly in his latter films like Drinking Buddies or his Netflix show Easy. Right? Chicago's definitely a character.
Maria:So even though there may be, you know, geographically disparate, there's nonetheless, I think, a real familial connection that grows ever more interconnected and and dense, as more and more films are made, especially by Swanberg. Yeah. Yeah.
Andy:Is he the most prolific of the of the mobile core filmmakers? I mean, looking at his list, it's crazy how how busy he was.
Maria:Yeah. I mean, I think if you count up all of the films that the Dupless incubator has, you know, fostered into being, they might, yeah, challenge his number. But in terms of ones that have directed by Joe Swanberg on IMDB, I think he probably has the longest list, but you're right. As as you pointed out about the opening credits of Hannah Takes the Stairs, you know, it's all too much the case that he was willing to give credit where credit was due. And, you know, it it always kills me when my students who are so excited about Greta Gerwig, which I'm so excited about, tell me that her first film was Lady Bird and, you know, her first orial, you know, was Lady Bird.
Maria:And I have to point out to them that in fact, it was this film called nights and weekends that they've never heard of. And she, you know, is a an electric actor, I would say, you know, she just lights up the screen, she has total star quality. You wanna watch her do whatever she's doing no matter how banal. And she shows that from her first, you know, appearances on screen in these Swanberg films. I totally respect her choice to go direct and not be an actor any longer, at least that's what she's saying for now.
Maria:And she's made some unbelievable world changing films. But I do have to say I miss I miss getting to see her act because she really gave these films so much energy and a lot of heart and a real female perspective that sometimes they were lacking.
Andy:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. A definite presence that she has here.
Andy:And as Hannah trying to, again, trying to figure her life out, this this one feels very much, like the the sister, I guess, you could say, to funny you know, in in the scope of, she's maybe now Marnie who has a job and is kind of doing what she wants, but now she's trying to figure that relationship stuff out and trying to kind of sort through that still. And I think that speaks to just the way that people would grow and evolve, and they they latch on to one thing, but there's still other things they have to figure out. And I enjoyed that about this film quite a bit.
Maria:I do too. I mean, it's really about her growing a conscience in the sense of, what it means to be in a relationship. Right? And, you know, you gather that as a young, fetching, flirtatious, intelligent woman, she's had a lot of suitors, and she hasn't always treated them or the relationships with them as, I don't know, maybe carefully as she could, or should, arguably. And I think that's the real tipping point in Hannah takes the stairs for me that she gets involved with somebody who has mental illness and, struggles with it.
Maria:She has to take that on or at least grapple with whether, right, to take that on and the kind of repercussions that even these supposedly casual flings of our 20 something years, right, can have for people, that it, you know, hurts to be heartbroken or, to orient your life, you know, towards somebody and have them not reciprocate. So in that sense, I think it's doing something really interesting with the radical romantic comedy again.
Andy:And also the relationships with coworkers, which is Oh,
Maria:yes.
Andy:Definitely creates some tension as we get to that the other relationship at work that she's she's in and how that changes things. Yeah.
Maria:Absolutely. And that gets ever harder because the line between work and life are are dissolving. Right? Those lines are dissolving. They're dissolving because we're increasingly like gig workers, right, that don't work for the corporation, but rather for ourselves, essentially, and oftentimes out of our home, even more so now post pandemic.
Maria:And, you know, we're talking to people that are our colleagues, but they're maybe in the same, you know, house with us because we're living in an expensive city and have to have roommates. Yeah. So there's just all of these lines being crossed that were firm formerly very firmly drawn and are, disappearing before our eyes. And maybe that was safe in college. Right?
Maria:But it's not so safe once there's a paycheck involved and upward mobility is at stake.
Andy:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. The next film on our list, we're kind of continuing relationships. And this one, perhaps, after watching it, I mean, it's it's a it may have, topped the puffy chair as far as my favorites on the list.
Andy:It's, Aaron Katz's 2007 film, Quiet City. And speaking of Swanberg, he also stars in this one. This story is about Jamie. She's a young woman who comes to New York City trying to connect with a friend there, and she ends up meeting Charlie as she's trying to figure out how to where where to go. And Charlie lives here.
Andy:They they meet, as she's asking for directions. They end up spending time together exploring the city, going to the parks, and they end up developing this connection over this period of time. This film, I just I loved. I love these sorts of stories of this this happenstance where you meet somebody and it just turns into this connection. And is it gonna last?
Andy:Who knows? But it's a connection that is important and might change something in you. And, you know, we haven't really brought up Richard Linklater in the scope of, like those nineties indies indie filmmakers, but, certainly, you can see something like the the before series in a film like this where it took some of the mumblecore aesthetics and some of those Richard Linklater, let's you know, over a 24 hour, however long period of time, we're gonna follow these characters as they kind of grow this relationship. There's a little bit more of a shift in the I guess you could say there's diversity in the way that Mumblecore stories are telling, being told, and evolving here. I mean, what are we getting out of this one as far as, like, what's it showing as far as how Mumblecore is growing and and and changing here, and and the filmmakers are experimenting with it?
Maria:Well, I'm so glad you brought up Linklater, and I love the before trilogy more than life itself. So, yeah, that was certainly what I was thinking of when I first watched Quiet City. I admit I haven't seen it in a long time. I have this very kind of, I don't know, a femoral, memory of it, which I think suits the film itself, because it does have the sense of the fleeting hours of life and trying to connect in the moment and be present when you find yourself suddenly, you know, with somebody who you do share some connection to, however fleeting. And the before series was all about that, and yet as Linklater always is very clear about these these are highly scripted films.
Maria:Right? They had to be because they were so tightly choreographed. And I would guess that Quiet City is not nearly so. I don't know as much about Aaron Katz's working method as I do about the other Mumble directors. He's always been the most kind of minimalist and, I would say, also, most unassuming of or maybe least, put into the spotlight of the Mumblecore core filmmakers.
Andy:Oh, interesting.
Maria:I mean, he's been celebrated. He had a Harvard Film Archive retrospective when he only had 3 films out, right, pretty early on
Andy:Holy cow.
Maria:Into the the movement. Yeah. So, I mean, he's been given his, just due. But, yeah, I think his films and maybe also his own, you know, kind of directorial persona is a little more unassuming. And he hasn't made nearly as many films.
Maria:He's not nearly as prolific as as somebody like Swanberg. But I think his films are really special. I think this one is beautiful, and I think the title says it all. I mean, it's a film that uses silence so effectively to speak volumes about the place and time. Something really profoundly significant about these mumblecore films is that they serve as these time portals to this past that's a very recent past, but it's already, I would argue, pretty far gone.
Maria:In this case, this not yet fully gentrified Brooklyn that they're roaming around that day, and it's so quiet and full of these empty spaces. And that speaks so thematically to the, you know, isolation and the the, alienation that these characters feel. Right? You know, they're lonely people.
Andy:Yeah. It's like they're in another world here. They're they're in their quiet little bubble as they walk around.
Maria:Exactly. Yeah. They're kind of protected from the reality of the world beyond them, right, that they have to figure out and the relationships that are kind of on hold or, you know, that you're recovering from as is the protagonist, you know, from a recent breakup.
Andy:Right. And it is interesting because, you know, so far, like, it's a lot of New York films, these that we're watching over the course of this conversation. We have a Chicago film that we've talked about. We'll we'll get to, San Francisco in our, member chat at the end. But there's a lot of New York here, and I don't know.
Andy:When I hear quiet city, I don't think of Brooklyn. And so I think that's an really interesting element that, that Katz chose to to tell with this because watching this film, it is incredibly quiet. You know, we're seeing a side of Brooklyn that I don't think people necessarily think of when they're talking about just kind of like all of New York City. Right? It just always is the bustling busy life that they portray as New York, and this is a shift.
Andy:And I think that's a really interesting element when we're looking at these these young people and these stories of people who they're there. They're in the big city. Right? They're they're trying to make a life and a living for themselves, but there's something about their life that feels separate as they're they don't necessarily feel connected, and they're trying to figure out is like, how do I connect to this, the rest of this big city so I can be a part of it? But there's something kind of keeping them separate, and that's an element that we certainly have here with with Jamie and Charlie as they're wandering through with this connection, but still trying to figure out, like, you know, what are the next steps?
Maria:Yeah. And I would say that they're somewhat similar to funny 's protagonist or some of these other characters that are in between relationships or foundering around trying to figure out what is, you know, a relationship or what kind of relationship it is to be as well as having that, you know, wandering in the professional sense. And, of course, that's all being, you know, maybe projected would be the word, outward onto the city, right, which becomes a space for navigating and wandering of sorts. And it's beautiful. It's it's a lovely look at a New York that I think has, you know, largely vanished or maybe was never there really, you know, except on celluloid, or in the interstices of, you know, a a quiet afternoon.
Maria:Very different energy than the next film that we're gonna discuss, and we're not necessarily needing to turn to it just yet. But I would say that, yeah, that film is all about trying to bend the city to your will somewhat, like, you know, having being a hustler as opposed to these slackers. Right? You know, Jamie and Charlie are slackers or at least maybe depressives, or lost and abandoned. Right?
Andy:You know,
Maria:just, you know, And the character in Frances is trying to find her way, but with, like, desperation as opposed to kind of more quietude in the sense of quiet city. You know, she is scrambling to try to figure out, you know, how to survive in this incredibly expensive place, and it's become ever more so in the years, you know, that, you know, separate the 2.
Andy:Yeah. I I I just there's something about it, and and maybe it is the fact that they're just feeling so disconnected. And I mean, I there's a scene in in this where they end up going to this art show and there's, one of Charlie's friends kind of gets on him for not socializing and stuff like that. And I think that speaks to an element. It's just a lot of it.
Andy:It's just these people, like, they want to be part of this world. They're going out, they're doing these things, but there's still something that keeps them from connecting properly, perhaps, you know, as as they're again, just kind of going to, like, how do I how do I make it through this this world and this life and everything and and, you know, dealing with breakups and the pain and everything. And maybe maybe there is depression here, as you said, that that is a part of it, and maybe that's why these two people do find this connection, you know, kindred spirits and all of that that helps them at least navigate this next 24 hours and come through it. Maybe on the other side, a tiny bit more positive and everything.
Maria:Yeah. And, you know, to bring up romcom yet again, I I think it's a kind of inverted or introverted maybe twist on that pretty obnoxious trope of the manic pixie dream girl. Right? Where in, romcoms, you'll see this down and out guy who's, you know, upset for whatever reason have his spirits and ego lifted by some whimsical woman's materialization as if her only purpose were to cheer this dude up. You know?
Maria:And I think this film is far more than that. And it's the more everyday version of that. Right? Where you see in another human some reassurance. Right?
Maria:You're able to, you know, live another day or love another time and open your heart again and get out there again. And, you know, if you've ever lived in New York, I I have and I remember, you know, especially for somebody who's introverted or maybe also depressed, it's a grueling city, right, to to throw yourself out into the midst of. Some people are very electrified and energized by it. Other people are depleted by it. You know?
Maria:And, speaking of the city being a character, I think we really we get that, from Quiet City. Right? That it's a scary place, and it's easier to have a kind of, you know, a wing woman, in this case, to brave it.
Andy:Yeah. Right. Right. No. It's a it's a great film.
Andy:I was really glad to have watched it because it, it it it was I don't know. It's definitely something special. I really enjoyed the journey that they took on that one. And that takes us to the final film on our list, 2000 twelve's Frances directed by Noah Baumbach, who is, a regular in Greta Gerwig's life for sure as they're still collaborating. This is a story about Frances.
Andy:She's a dancer. She is wanting to make it onto the the main troupe of this, this group that she works with, but still is kind of working in the wings. And over the course of the film, she's trying to figure out adulthood again and friendships and, finding her place in the world in some capacity quite, literally as we're watching her address. It's a brilliant bit of storytelling, watching her address change over the course of the story as essentially our chapters in the film. And, over the course of it, she's struggling with her, best friend, Sophie, and their relationship, which is put to the test over the course of it as she's trying to pursue her dreams of being an artist and really trying to figure out who she is over the course of the film.
Andy:Definitely jumping from 2007 to here with this film, Noah Baumbach, certainly speaking of nineties independent filmmakers, fits into that group. Is are we hitting a point with this where we're kind of starting that shift from Mumblecore to post Mumblecore as we're starting to get, like, known and respected independent filmmakers from the earlier days kind of jumping into it to tell their own stories? Are we seeing a changing landscape in Mumblecore, post Mumblecore, just the independent movement in general?
Maria:Yeah. Absolutely. And I would say that Greenberg, their first collaboration, Baumbach and Gerwig said is, you know, was that that bridge, that does link the Mumblecore to the nineties indie filmmakers, but that also maybe links Mumblecore to, a more mainstream, right, you know, level of audience and funding. And also a bridge between Mumblecore and what I named earlier in the coinage of Jeffrey Skonce's smart cinema. You know, Baumbach was certainly one of these so called smart cinemamakers, smart filmmakers of the nineties.
Maria:You know, his early films were all very talky and, you know, very overeducated people, usually young men. Right? You know?
Andy:In that Whit Stillman group of storytelling.
Maria:Yeah. Grand ideas, kind of outwitting one another, right, with their highfalutin theories. You know, Whit Stillman is another of these. And so kind of joining forces, you know, my hot take on the Baumbach Gerwig collaboration is that she makes him better. I'm not sure he always makes her better.
Maria:The jury's still out on that. But in the case of Frances certainly in the case of Barbie, I would argue, to the death that they make each other better. And both films, however different they are, result in really amazing outcomes. And, I love Frances It's a film about female friendship. It's a film about uncoupling with your best female friend.
Maria:And that's something that, you know, I feel like I've been through multiple times as a woman, and it's painful. It's as painful, if not more painful, than the heartbreak that you feel at the end of a romantic relationship. And it's also, I think, a really strong film in that it is looking more unflinchingly at New York and at KLASP than a lot of these kinds of films do. However, indeed, they are. Right?
Maria:They might still not, you know, bother to question or even notice that money, right, is a real issue, that that work and class, divisions and class mobility or immobility, and the the cost of of choosing to be an artist, as a career. Right? Most of even indie films, much less Hollywood films, right, don't give all those concerns any attention, any notice. And I think Francis absolutely does. It's still a very romantic film that allows, you know, the heroine to have a sort of happy ever after.
Maria:I won't go further in spoiling it, but, I do think that it it is more open eyed about the literal costs, right, of, the creative life and, just life in a creative city, in in the 2nd decade of 21st century.
Andy:And as a character oh, you know, she's a character who has figured out what she wants. Right? So we are actually following a character now who's gone through that work, knows she wants to dance, and she wants to not just work in the office as she's kind of devoted to, but she really wants to do her own thing. She wants to have that. And I think that's a key part.
Andy:Like, it's not so much I mean, she certainly still has some exploration that she has to figure out as far as work, but she already has it figured out as to what she wants to be doing. And I think that's a key part of, as we've been seeing kind of these evolutions. And this one really does focus on the friendship and really trying to figure out that bond and how how to kind of continue evolving a relationship as your own lives are changing. And I think that's a hard thing for some people to figure out. Like, can we continue being friends as we both start growing and changing in different directions?
Andy:I mean, everybody kinda goes through that going from high school to college. Like, some of those friendships you can con you continue with. Some of them you kind of lose touch with even after college, like or even later in life as you're moving out and not roommates anymore and you're shifting and you're kind of growing. It's like, can you we maintain that? And I think that's an interesting aspect that you have here.
Maria:Absolutely. And it reminds me of a wonderful, and I would say radical romantic comedy from the seventies called Girlfriends, which, the filmmaker Claudia Weil made as her first feature and one of the only woman directors working in Hollywood, certainly in the 19 seventies and really even adjacent to Hollywood in the US. There were so few women making films, and she made this amazing film, that came out in 1978, I believe, about just this. Right? 2 women, oath, wanting to be artists, a writer in one case, a photographer in another, whose primary bond is with one another until it's not.
Maria:Right? Until a man comes between them or their careers come between them or their interest in having a career, but also a family, right, comes between them and having to navigate that. It's a romantic comedy of sorts, I would say, because it has a lot of the same concerns of having it all, balancing, right, all of the desires one has with the need to compromise if you're going to share a life with someone else. And it it brings feminism, in both cases, I think, into the mix quite powerfully because, you know, now women are promised, right, that they can have it all, and they're given opportunities to, you know, have careers in fields like art, but it comes with real costs and compromises. And having to figure those out is challenging and and and, you know, requires some risk of loss.
Andy:Yeah. For sure. There is kind of this, you know, sense that Mumblecore comes to an end. I I think I don't know. Reading about it, it's like, did is it over?
Andy:Are we in the kind of is there post Mumblecore going on now? And and and I mean, certainly, the filmmakers, we've talked about a number of them and how once they've shown some signs of success, Hollywood came calling. They ended up making some films for bigger budgets and everything. The Duplass brothers had Cyrus, you know, and and we start seeing these filmmakers doing things that are a little bigger. Did it end?
Andy:Is it post mumblecore by this point? You know, we're gonna be talking about a couple films in in the post show chat that that are in the in the teens. Are they post mumblecore? Like, how does all of this kind of evolve by this point?
Maria:I think there was some closing of doors to the ability to make this level of work and get it shown, or get it sold and distributed. You know, in 2007, we had this downturn economically, you know, the the great recession as we call it. And, that led to the shuttering of a lot of these specialty divisions that I referenced earlier at the studios and a lot of the boutique distributors, that that, you know, could no longer stay in business. And so there was less of a an arm, for financing and circulating this work. The web series that we saw a lot of around this time that was a sort of launching path, or launching pad to films like Tiny Furniture or Appropriate Behavior, which we'll talk about, that ended up segueing into, in the case of people like, you know, the creators of Broad City or High Maintenance into gigs in television.
Maria:I mean, television's doors were opening as some of these other doors were closing.
Andy:We haven't mentioned that, but, certainly, we'll start seeing, like, some of these people jumping into TV as as kind of, like, the influence of Mumblecore making that shift too.
Maria:Exactly. Yeah. So when when when you jump into another platform, then things get more diffuse, and it's harder to kind of corral a mumblecore together in the same way.
Andy:Well, you're certainly not getting those micro budgets or kind of the do it yourself, like, raw look that you're getting in in the in TV at that point.
Maria:Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. You might be getting some of the same style of content or storytelling, and you have this additional asset, I think, to make it more serialized, right, so that you can trace it over time, even more effectively than in an 80 minute movie. But, yeah, you lose something certainly.
Maria:And, I think another thing that, you know, contributed to this is just the super saturation of content that we, you know, are still wading our way through.
Andy:Yeah.
Maria:Other modes like podcasting, right, that come to the fore and compete for our eyeballs. Video gaming is, you know, also escalating significantly, in these years. I would say one thing, though, that we'll talk about more in the bonus segment that was happening with the original Mumblecore, which was never as much of a boys' club as it was kind of billed as being. There were always women there from the start, not just on screen, but behind the camera as well. But it became more inclusive.
Maria:Right? There were stories being told that were not only about heterosexual, cisgendered, white, emergent adults. Right? They were still mostly emergent adults, but we started to see people who identify in all sorts of other ways making films or on screen in films that I think could legitimately be claimed for Mambourcord.
Andy:Yeah. That's definitely an important part. We'll definitely be talking about that as we get to Jenkins and Okavon and Baker. Like, they're they're all definitely making some things that, fit that as far as the the shift in Mumblecore. It's such a fascinating topic.
Andy:And looking at the way that Mumblecore has really changed the the independent film market largely and what people are looking for, what people who are making, how they're telling their stories, and as you mentioned, like, how they're starting to tell those stories in television and everything. It will be interesting to see, like, when are we gonna get that shift in the video game world? Is that gonna come? Is there gonna be, like, a more, independent style of of video gaming that that happens? I don't know.
Andy:I guess we'll see. But
Maria:I'm told that it exists. I'm so not part of that world, so I have to just take it, as I hear.
Andy:I just saw Elijah Wood tweet something about a video game he's excited about, which is, like, people listening to playlists or something. And I'm like, oh, that's and maybe there's more to it. But I was like, okay. I guess there are those sorts of things out there that people can connect to that isn't just running around and and killing people in a battlefield. You know?
Andy:So
Maria:I guess so. Yeah. I guess it's it's like something someone said about another form of media that if you can imagine it, they have a video game of it. I suppose that's where we're at now.
Andy:Yeah. Probably. Probably. Well, I mean, this has been a great conversation. Maria, thank you so much for, joining me to chat about Mummocore and really kind of explore these films and this this movement because I think it's such an interesting and I know it's definitely not for everybody, but I think learning more about it and the way that they tell their stories, I think it's important to look at just to understand how, at at this point, not just independent cinema, but really how cinema has been evolving.
Andy:And I think that's a a very important thing to look at and and discuss. So thanks for being here for, for this conversation.
Maria:Yeah. I think you're right that it's very adaptive. Right? At its heart, Mumblecore is an adaptive, right, mode of making films. And I think at our point in time where it's all about the death of cinema, we keep hearing that that ring tolling.
Maria:Right? And it never actually quite happens, but I think Mambacore was able to roll with, whatever, you know, was flung at it in some really difficult first two decades of the century. And I'm I'm grateful that we have a a a, you know, really, I think, memorable movement. Let's call it a movement Yeah. To usher in this millennium.
Maria:And we have the millennials to thank for it.
Andy:Yeah. Well, I you know, having not seen as many Mumblecore films until, this, this episode, I'm I've gotta say I really enjoyed exploring these. So, again, thank you so much.
Maria:Oh, thank you.
Andy:So alright. Before we go, do you have anything that you wanna plug, Maria?
Maria:I would love to plug something that not everyone might be able to see, but I'll hold it up anyway.
Andy:And this is Absolutely.
Maria:My book on a mumblecore film called appropriate behavior that we'll be talking about in the bonus segment. It's part of a series called the queer film classics, that's published by McGill Queen's University Press, formerly by another press, Arsenal Pulp Press. And, I think there's probably about close to 20 now of these books that each individually treat a significant queer film classic. Mine is the newest, not the newest in terms of date of publication that came out in 2022, but it is, the one that treats the film that is the newest and the most recent classic in the bunch, and that seems like an oxymoron. But I hope to have made a clear case for why, it is, I think, to be regarded as a queer film classic.
Maria:It is the first feature film of Desirai Akkadan, and it is a queer romance and maybe an uncoupling comedy, radical rom com, but certainly a film about a bisexual Middle Eastern New Yorker, who is trying to navigate all of those identities, and also the throes of heartache. And I love it so much that I wrote a whole book about it.
Andy:Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, find it where you can. If we get links, we'll make sure there the show notes so everyone can check that book out. It sounds like a fantastic read about a fantastic film.
Andy:So very much looking forward to it. Alright, everybody. Well, remember, before we close, members, don't forget about our special bonus segment. We are gonna be exploring 5 additional films that showcase the evolution of Mumblecore, the emergence of post Mumblecore, and the movements enduring impact on independent cinema. These films are Medicine for Melancholy, Hump Day, Tiny Furniture, Appropriate Behavior, and Tangerine.
Andy:These films offer a fascinating glimpse into Mumblecore's ability to tackle a wide range of themes and experiences. If you're not a member yet and you wanna join us on this extended exploration of the Mumblecore movement's impact, visit true story dot f m slash join to access the exclusive content. Next month, we'll venture into the captivating world of Brazilian favela films. This powerful subgenre offers a multifaceted look at life in Brazil's sprawling slums, where the romantic vision of vibrant communities collides with the dystopian realities of poverty and crime. As we navigate the narrow alleys and confront harsh truths, we'll explore how these films illuminate the complex experiences of favela residents, sparking global conversations about inequality and social change.
Andy:Join us as we discover stories that emerge from the margins, balancing hope and despair, leaving an indelible mark on our hearts. Thanks for joining us on CINEMASCO, part of the True Story FM Entertainment podcast network. Music by Orcus and the Hunts. Find us in the entire Next Real family of film podcasts at true story dot f m. Follow us on social media at the next reel, and please rate and review us if your podcast app allows.
Andy:And remember, your cinematic journey never ends. Stay curious.