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Dive deep into the fascinating world of Div, a marketing maven whose journey transcends the realms of engineering and cybersecurity to the vibrant heart of product marketing. In this riveting episode, Div shares the rich tapestry of experiences that shaped their career, from the initial steps at Applied Materials to becoming a revered mentor and director in the marketing sphere.
Beyond the professional accolades, Div opens up about personal trials, including battling anxiety and finding solace in mindfulness and self-care. This episode is more than just a career chronicle; it's an inspiring narrative of transformation, resilience, and the relentless pursuit of fulfillment in both work and life.
Join us as we explore the interplay of personal growth and professional evolution with Div, whose story illuminates the power of authenticity and continuous learning in crafting a life that's truly one's own.
"Embracing my authentic self transformed not just my career, but my entire life. It's about finding that sweet spot where personal values and professional aspirations align, creating a symphony of success and satisfaction."
Sai "Hi" to Div:
* https://www.linkedin.com/in/divmanickam
* https://twitter.com/divmanickam
* https://www.instagram.com/divmanickam/
* https://www.facebook.com/divmanickam
* https://www.youtube.com/@nowherediv
* https://unsplash.com/@divmanickam
Leaping into the unknown, she published books on her journey. She is passionate about empowering folks to be their best selves.
* A Broken Teacup: Filling the cracks with Mindfulness, Essentialism and Self-care
* Fearless: Be the Authentic Leader you will Follow
* A Book is Born: Guide to Self-publishing
* Product Marketing: Mastering the art and science of PMM
Additional resources:
* Blog - https://divmanickam.substack.com [https://divmanickam.substack.com/]
* Ebooks on Gumroad - https://divmanickam.gumroad.com/
* Paperback Books on Lulu - www.lulu.com/spotlight/divmanickam [http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/divmanickam]
Welcome to the My Way Podcast, a captivating journey where the principles of product marketing and sportsmanship collide with real-life scenarios. Here, we dive into the heart of meaningful stories, leveraging insightful conversations with experts and diverse guests.
Ivan (00:01)
Div, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ivan. My pleasure. Super excited to be here. Same. And where are you at at the moment? Right now I'm in San Francisco Bay Area. Oh, nice. So jealous of it. I see the sun at the background while here it's already night. I'm very fortunate to be by the water, by the bay actually. So exciting to have restarted my life back in the Bay Area again.
Nice, and we'll get more into that later because I'm also curious because all of the time I get to ask you questions about product marketing and very technical stuff, but this time it's going to be interesting because we're going to take a totally different angle on it. So I'm looking forward to it. Likewise. All right, to start, could you share a little bit about yourself, your journey, what led you from the beginnings of your career to where you're at today? Absolutely. Yeah. So...
I'm Div Manikam. Currently, I'm a mentor and explorer, director of product marketing, and all things in one in some shape or form. I think my career has helped shape who I am. And I think my life choices have shaped where I am today. So I'll tell you a little bit about both. My career, I started off as a marketing communication specialist at Applied Materials, which was my first job after my MBA in marketing.
Prior to that, I have an engineering degree. So I did my bachelor's in IT and I did my master's in cybersecurity. And if I had my way, I would be a student for life. So I like to think of learning as my core. It is a part of who I am and one of the reasons why I'm learning. In Duolingo, I have six languages that I'm learning, one of which is actually Italian. So, buongiorno.
So we can ask questions in Italian. I'm still working through that. But yeah, I'm really fortunate for the opportunities I've had to come to the US to build my career, knowing that product marketing is where I want to be. But it was a long -winded road. I went from marketing communications to sales enablement to becoming a BI analyst within the company that I was at.
And that led to my first technical product marketing role in a BI analytics company, which then led to my actual first product marketing job. So I've navigated through different roles, but product marketing kind of became my core and it became my identity in some way. And I grew in that role to become a product marketing leader, got some recognition along the way. And I finally realized, okay, I'm doing something right.
that there are people who actually want to hear how I do things and what are the things that I'm working on. So very exciting to have navigated through that path. And right now I'm a mentor, which I started in 2020 and I have the opportunity to connect with people around the world, whether it's through free platforms or through my own mentoring programs that I have, but it's just humbling to connect with someone, help them out, give them a chance to.
embrace who they are, be their authentic selves and just empower themselves to be their best. So that's who I am today. Interesting. And today what drives your career and personal life? Because I think you have an interesting blend of both, or at least that's what it was like when I met you. Definitely different from all the classical paths. So I'm curious to learn more about that. Absolutely. Yeah. So I went through a little bit of my own, I don't know,
call it hiccups or pivots that people have to go through in life. And one of my pivots came in 2020, where I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. And I was like, hey, I can't do the things that I thought I could keep doing. So I needed to pivot and figure out what that means for me. That led to me looking at other opportunities like mentoring, because that was very fulfilling. Like it gave me a purpose. It was my Icky guy.
I knew this is why I exist in this life. It's the reason why I wake up every morning. But along the way, I also realized that I needed accountability. For me, I'm a very calendar -driven person. If something's on my calendar, it will get done. Otherwise, it won't. And so I started looking at personal OKRs. And this year, 2024, my theme for my personal OKR is a connection. I really value the connections that I've had in the past four years, and I want to continue to foster that.
its synergies. So seeking and having an open mind to opportunities like these as well as being fearless, right? I have to remind myself every day that I am fearless and that I can actually do something. And a lot of it has been self -talk and changing my own narrative to be from, oh, I'm not good enough to, hey, I had something to offer the swirls and.
It's not what everybody else does and that's okay. And so I created a portfolio life. Right now I have my role as a director of product marketing. I am doing my mentoring. I teach product marketing and I explore. Like I travel, I'm a foodie at heart. Like all of these things make me me. I love capturing moments and photos of flowers. And before I used to be like, oh, when I go to work, I need to be a work div. When I do this, I need to be this div. And now I'm like, no, I just need to be me, my authentic self. And...
whether people appreciate it or not is not the question. I just need to create that aura, that energy so that I bring those right people to my life. And really humbled and really grateful for the opportunity to even connect with you, Evan, because we all have similar paths and we're all navigating through that together. Yeah, definitely. I'm wondering, once you were at this pivotal moment, because I feel that a lot of people, especially in technology or in big companies,
They tried to keep push through and deny instead of making these tough calls or decisions. I'm just curious when you were faced with that situation, was it a decision from your side to change? Was it something that was imposed by your body or from your company? And how did you live that moment? I would say my body was giving me enough signs for over 18 months. I didn't pay attention to it.
And then it gave me the final blow where I really had to pay attention in October 2021 where I had a blackout. My anxiety had gotten to its peak. I wasn't sleeping well. My body was giving me all the signs, but I was ignoring it and saying, no, no, no, I got this. I figure I'll figure it out.
But the environment wasn't right. The work environment wasn't where it needed to be, and it was very toxic. And even though we were remote, I could feel the toxicity in my bones. And I'm a very hypersensitive person. That makes me empathetic, but that also makes me very alert when things don't seem right in the work environment. So I'm very conscious of that. And that choice that I had to make in October was a conscious choice, because I was like,
it's not working, I need to do something different. Like you can't keep doing the same things and expect the same results, right? Same thing applied in my life as well. So that pivotal moment gave me a path to really looking back and saying, what is it that made me feel fulfilled? What gave me meaning to my life? And that's what mentoring was. It was the only one thing that throughout the pandemic that kept me alive, that kept me to go and get up every morning made...
the opportunity for me to heal from my own wounds, from my own struggles, and give me the confidence that you've got this. There are so many things that are going wrong, but you still are getting up every morning and doing what's needed to move forward. That's all it is. And do you feel that you've learned something today? So now you just recently came back to a similar environment. Is it any different today?
Are you stronger? I is before I tied work as my identity, so I was the director of product marketing, and if I wasn't, then I was nothing. That's how I associated myself. Now, I know that I have my work, I have my mentoring, I have my teaching, I have my peers, my friends, folks like you that I can connect with. That is, I think, what has shifted for me. Before I thought, okay, work was everything that I gave.
my everything, right? I have the explorative, like the past 10 days during the holidays, I traveled and walked around the city and the gardens and parks and that made me happy. Like I've realized what happiness is for me. And I'm making a conscious choice to keep those things in my life, right? Whatever is the negative sources, negative forces that is not helping, I took that out. And now I...
want to wake up happy every morning and want to go to bed feeling happy every morning. That doesn't mean every day is going to be that way. And I'm okay with it. Right. I'm learning to listen to my body. I'm learning to listen to how I feel before I was good at just putting it under the rug. So I think that's the big shift for sure. Like it's change of mindset. And I remember talking to my HR director who was with me during that October moment of change that I made. And she's like, did you sound so happy? Like I can see your perspective has shifted. Like even though you've gone back to.
a nine to five job, you're looking at it in a different lens. And I think that's what it is. It's knowing where meaning is for you and how you can contribute and then figuring out what are the parts of that puzzle that you need to feel fulfilled. Do you feel that now it would be harder for you to get back in the same situation or easier or do you have the same chances or likelihood to get back?
to get back to going to my anxiety? Yes. I'm sure I will, but I think I also have the right tools. I stumbled upon mindfulness in 2020, and that has helped me rethink and reframe the thoughts in my head. I had a lot of mental clutter for that matter, and now I have the clarity. Now I have the focus. I know what matters and what doesn't.
I make a conscious choice every day. Like on my calendar, I have one hour that is blocked off that says walk to remember, right? It is my way of taking care of my mental wellbeing. And if I don't do that every day, I know how it will impact my mental health, right? So making those conscious choices, right? When I eat, I try to be mindful about how I'm eating. Before I used to eat for and take a meeting at the same time. Now I'm like, no, I need my one hour blocked off for my lunch.
I'm sure there will be days where it will become 30 minutes, but at least I have 30 minutes where I go off from the computer, take the time to have the meal and then come back and do what needs to be done. I don't think we give enough of ourselves to pay attention to the little things that's important. And so that can also be the reason why we have so much stress and anxiety, right? The constant news that is out there.
All the negative, everything that's there, it just brings us down and there's nothing to uplift us. And so I try to find different ways to bring that upliftment. So for me, walking in nature, by the water is always for me to feel good that there is hope in this world. And for people that are experiencing anxiety at work, do you have any practical tips on how to spot it in early stages?
or how to overcome it before it becomes too much to handle. I can share mine. So folks often tell me I'm very organized and I'm very calm. And they're like, oh, you haven't seen, you haven't seen what's behind the scenes. Right? Like there's a reason why I have this card with me. You're fearless because I have my own fears. I have my own struggles. Certain times when I start a new job, I'm constantly asking, am I good enough? Am I doing all the right things? And
That is enough to stir my anxiety. But at the same time, I know that, hey, I have this same amount of time as anybody else. And how I use the time is what is where it matters. So I put together the process, the frameworks, and hence the reason those things exist, because they are needed for my own ways to curb my anxiety in some way. And so figuring out what works, so if I'm organized, if I know what my day is going to be like, I can prepare for it. I take the time to do it after work, after 4 PM, 5 PM.
I'm taking the time to rest and recover and recharge. I'm not keeping my full day fully occupied and fully busy because I know that's not helping me. I know during the weekend I need my time off. If someone says, hey, let's catch up, I'll do one catch up once a week and that's it. I can't do too many things. So I'm learning what works for me and getting comfortable with it. Before I used to feel like, oh my gosh, I'm never having enough energy. I'm always exhausted.
Now I know why that is the case. And so now I take conscious choices to find the time to either read or do a duolingo for that matter or whatever it is, right? Whatever makes me feel like I'm learning, right? Like learning is a big part of who I am that I'm giving back to the community. And those are things I think that has shaped how I approach anxiety and also just sharing my story. Like...
before I used to struggle because I used to be like, oh my gosh, people are going to think that I'm not good enough. But now I'm like, actually, my anxiety is a part of me. And because of that, I can do certain things much better than folks who don't have it because they don't have to worry about it. So I've become thoughtful about it. I share about it during my job search with my interviewers. And I want to understand that where I work in understands that scenario and that they are.
appreciated that I'm working through those things and they see that as a positive as compared to a negative. So I think that hopefully helps too. I like it how you have for everything like a super actionable and concrete plan, which makes everything easier. It's all try till you succeed, right Evan? So we get there eventually. Yeah, that's true. Before you mentioned mindfulness and I was thinking in my head like...
When I think about leadership or technology or companies, you don't often see in a CV, let's say mindfulness and leadership combined together. So how does it work for you? How did you get into mindfulness and can it be anyhow applied or can it complement leadership? A hundred percent it can. I think it's just a conscious choice if we wanted to. For me, like I said, right, mindfulness came into my life.
right when I was breaking down where I felt like everything was going wrong. And it helped me lift up. It helped me find the tools like breath work and learning to be present and appreciating this moment in time. Right now it's just you and me. There's nothing else that exists in my ecosystem. It's single tasking as compared to multitasking and trying to be doing multiple, too many things at once.
There's enough data to tell us that our context switching is not really helping us. It's just disrupting. The reason why I was able to, and this is my hypothesis, right? The reason why I was able to publish four books in a year was because I had that single focus. I was like, I have a four week sprint. I'm going to get started. I'm going to work through it and get it done, right? Like having that clarity and focus is huge for leadership because there's so many things we need to do. And if we cannot be...
crystal clear on our objectives, right? Like I have my personal OKRs, we have our team OKRs. How do we build all of that into our day to day? So when I was at Lenovo, I stumbled upon a mindfulness program and they had given us some free access for a couple of months. And it was just what we needed because I was having a team of 25 people in 10 countries around the world, from the US to the UK, Europe, Asia, as well as Latin America. And...
we were all trying to struggle, go through the pandemic, go through COVID and all of the things that each, you could see how each country was so, uh, disparately different, right? But at the same time, we are all fighting the same challenges and we are all being human for the first time in our lives. And this is where I think leadership and mindfulness became so much more meaningful for me because I, I actually had it as one of my OKRs. Like, how do I bring mindfulness into the day to day? How do I help my team with?
role clarity, give them the space, foster that sense of, hey, it's safe for you to share what you feel like, right? And me sharing my story gave them the confidence that they could too. I think that goes reciprocal. But at the same time, there was a program that I had come across called Friday Pulse, which was every Friday we would just catch up and it was a quick survey, right? They would just ask you a few questions. I did a picture perfect introduction, so we got to know each other.
So little moments like that where as a team, we started bonding and we started getting to know each other, even though we were all remote, right? Like we were all in 10 different countries, but we all felt like in that moment in time, whenever we got into a team call, that we were together in this, that we got this together, right? So I think little bit, you can bring mindfulness into your day to day. And it's only one step at a time. Like wake up every morning and ask yourself, what do you want your today to be? As simple as that can be. Or,
If you have to make a decision, you could ask your question, is this going to make me happy in the future? And the future could be in a month, in a year, whatever it is. So you can be very intentional with your choices. In my classes, I bring mindfulness. I do a two -minute mindful practice because we all go from one thing to the other so quickly. We don't have the time to reorient. So that two minute is our way of just taking a breather.
Setting in and setting the intention that I want to spend the next two hours learning. That's it. Right. So it's things like that. I think there's big value. And if you can bring that into your day to day, nothing more like it in leadership. Yeah. And you talked about how you can bring that as a leader towards your team. I'm wondering when you look for a new opportunity, are you also looking for a leader, a mindful leader? And how is that important? Because sometimes we can.
like the company or we need the job so we are ready to compromise on that. How do you make these decisions when looking for new opportunities and how important is the relationship and the approach of the person you will be reporting to? It is important, but I think I have a different mindset than I did a year ago or two years ago for that matter. Before I would put so much weight on...
what I expect the leader to be, how I expect the leader to be. And now I am learning to embrace the leader with their own strengths and weaknesses. There are things that they do grand, there are things that they don't, and that's okay. Now that I've created the space to not let work just be my identity, I can give them a little bit of that space to be like, yep, there are things you do well, there are things you don't, and that's okay.
Before, I think I was putting a lot of that weight on myself as a leader and I was expecting similar for others. And now I'm like, everyone's human. We can all grow and thrive together and we can learn from each other. So as long as there is that open mindset, that growth mindset to be like, I don't have everything figured out, but together we'll figure it out. I think that's what is needed in the leader and giving your teams the space to grow into what they need to be.
Yeah, I remember one of the first time we talked, I was changing my career path and you asked me, what are your intentions, what kind of job or position are you looking for? And I said, I don't care, I just need a job now. So whoever picks me first, I'll go with them. While it made me reflect on the overall long -term trajectory, sometimes, especially here in Europe,
the opportunities are fewer than in US, we tend to be more attached to our status quo or the current position rather than be more brave or there to do something different. Sometimes it can be driven by fear maybe. I'm wondering if you have ever been in this kind of situation and if you have any tips or...
processes as you have for everything, but in this case, is there a better way to approach it? Yeah, every job search, I go through that same thing. And trust me, I have always taken the first opportunity that has come in. But I think now that I've set the intention, I honestly believe in the miracles that have been happening in the world. But at the same time, I think the universe is bringing the right opportunities along the way, which sounds very...
magical, but I truly believe that is the case. Once we have that clarity of where we want to be and where we want to go, things start falling in place. That's how my first day of 2022, the last day of 2023 has been from me making that trip to Lisbon, Portugal, spending two months there, going to the UK for two months, and then finding my way back to San Francisco Bay Area.
I knew I wanted to continue to do what I was doing, but I also wanted, I had the space to take on something more. And once you have that clarity, I think the right opportunities come along and it might not feel right when you take it, right? You might be like, oh, is this, is this it? Is there something else I should be looking for? You always have those doubts, but trust the universe that the right pieces are coming in and.
It might not make sense right now in this moment, but when you look back, you'll be like, of course, that's how it was. Like, even my path to product marketing, now I'm like, of course, that is the path. It makes so much sense. But at that point in time, when I got that BI analyst role, I had so much doubt. I was like, wait, I want to become a product marketer. Why am I taking this role? But it was a role that was going to help me move up in terms of my career and stuff. And I was like, I didn't even know what BI analyst was at that point in time. Right. But.
Now most of the roles, somehow or the other, they are so interconnected that it's just fascinating. So I do believe that the right opportunities will come and sometimes you'll just have to make the choice to be like, I can't keep waiting forever. So put a timeframe when you want to make the decision and you make the decision with the context that you have. That's all you can do, right? If you have two jobs, you compare those and make the decision and say, okay, I'm going to go forward with this. Or we are like, no, this doesn't quite feel right.
I'm going to keep pursuing. It's a choice that we can make. Have you ever said no in a situation where something was appealing, but you didn't feel that it was right at that time? I think I make those choices early on in that interview. So if I have an interview and I don't think it's quite working with the conversation that I'm having with my manager or the hiring manager for that matter, I think I look for cues on...
how the company is, how the people are, the culture is, how are they responding to some of the questions that I have in terms of like team dynamics. If I'm getting answers that are reasonable, I will give it a shot. But if I feel like, no, no, no, this seems like a manager that is very micromanaging or a different leadership style than what I'm comfortable with.
I know and they know at the same time, right? They're like, no, this is not someone I want to work with and I know I don't want to work with them. So we don't even have to wait for that email to come to say, oh yeah, we're not proceeding or for me to send them an email. It's a given. But if you're having a good conversation, they will tell you right away, they'll be like, hey, I had a quick conversation. I will connect you with the next person. Whatever is the process, right? That's what I look for when I go for these. It's less about...
the process and more about how can I distill it down to is this core to my values? And I always bring up my picture perfect introduction, right? It's a way to show them, hey, this is who I am, not just my resume or what you see on LinkedIn. This is the whole of me. And I've had great conversations with some of my hiring managers. One, we bonded over macaroons and flowers. And she shared something with me that she was like, I worked in this company for 25 years. Nobody even knows that I draw flowers. And I was like, wow.
Like in 30 minutes, this was a bond and a connection we made in that interview. So those are, I think I'm a people person at heart. And that's what brings me to the folks that I connect with and everything else from there. Yeah. Sometimes we forget about this human perspective when we get focused on business, career, companies. I'm curious since you've been working at startups and also Fortune 500 companies,
What were the main differences there and how did you decide to pivot from one sector to the other? I didn't actually decide to pivot. It just came along the way is the honest answer, but I think it has been a very interesting journey to see the differences that come in startups versus Fortune 500. I like the opportunity to roll up my sleeves and get things done.
And in large organizations, that comes with a lot of bureaucracy. So it means you have your path and what you need to get done. And sometimes that's restricting. Sometimes that is limiting to your own true potential. Going into a startup, you might be like, okay, I can do a lot, but I don't have enough resources or enough money or time or anything. Right. So finding that or maybe dancing the dance for that balance is probably the hardest part, but
I enjoyed both sides of it because I wouldn't have otherwise gotten a chance to lead a team of 25 people if it wasn't for a large organization, right? But at the same time, in the startup world, I wouldn't have had a chance to start my first career as a leader. And I honestly believe that I don't need a title as a leader to be a leader because I feel it in what I do and how I inspire and influence people. And that's what leadership is about. It's not a job title or a...
opposition or, oh, I need a team to be a leader. You can be a leader in your own shape and form and just be authentic. Like that's what people look up to. The leaders that I'm inspired by are the ones that are authentic. And that's how my journey towards writing the book about authentic leadership and being fearless came about. Yeah, let's get into this because I'm super interested. First of all, what led you to become a self -publisher and
What was it like writing a book or four books? I think the first one was part of my story. It was about a broken teacup, filling the cracks with mindfulness, essentialism and self -care. It was my journey through everything that I called as hell and back and actually rising from that and finding my way and my voice. I had a personal passion and a commitment. Like I remember telling my manager, I was like,
I don't know what this generalized anxiety is, but whatever it is, I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to help other people. Because I realized as a leader, we don't really talk about it. Mental health doesn't get the space in the conversation on the table at all in any shape and form. It's always looked down upon. And I felt I was very wrong. Somebody needed to do something about it. And so I decided to be a voice. This was one of my personal OKRs in 2020 and 2021.
to be a voice for the unspoken, to talk about stress and anxiety, to talk about the things that matter, to talk about diversity, all of these things, right? And that's how it all started. It was writing that first book after I had my blackout in October, 2021. I put myself a goal. I was like, I'm going to focus. I have five weeks. I chose the date, December 21st of 2021.
because 21 May was my birthday. And I was like, this number 21 is not gonna come back in my lifetime. I have to publish this book. That was all it took for me to have that focus and clarity every day. I was like, I don't know what it takes to self -publish, but I'm gonna figure it out. Like I'm a learner at heart. Like I'll figure it out. And I was like, I can get an ebook published. Let's do that. Going through the process, finding the tools. Like this is where the tools also.
I would have conversations with people and I'd be have you heard about this? Have you heard of that? And so I learned it along the way and self -published my first book. Then in 2022, I started reaching out to folks. I mean, like, hey, I want to, people are asking me for print books. I don't know how to print books. How do I do this thing? And then self -publishing, I learned about the process, the method to the madness. Then I ended up writing about fearless, right? The authentic leadership.
self -published that and then I wrote about self -publishing itself. And then eventually I had the courage, my fourth book was about product marketing. So everything that I've learned in product marketing. And if you are thinking, okay, you just wake up one day and then start writing, it doesn't, hopefully it works that way, but didn't work that way for me. I've been writing on Substack and other forums previously, and that became my foundation to.
what I wanted to write, and then it was more about putting structure and putting the right pieces of the puzzle. So it's a beautiful journey. I'm right now in the process of working on my fifth one, which is about food, because I'm a foodie at heart. So sharing what I call one meal at a time, and hopefully I should get it done in the next week. When is it coming out? My plan is always on the 21st. So there is one Jan 21 that's coming. So that's what I'm working towards, and it's a gift for my mom.
It's our birthday next week. Yeah. Oh, right. Because I'm sure you also have a launch plan and a go -to -market strategy for the book. No, none of that because this is all just for me. So it's for me to get this book to my mom and that's all it is. So that's what I'm working on. The launch plan and go -to -market, I'll leave that for my work for now. I'm curious about the Authentic Leader book.
So for people that are looking to take this path or to become one, what are the top skills they should develop or activities they should practice in order to get there? So I'll maybe start with what or the inception of authentic leadership. And whenever I think about authentic leadership, this was something that I shared in 2022, right? Be the authentic leader you will follow.
I've been very fortunate in my career to find and actually be part of teams where you had these authentic leaders. Like I always worried that there was this expectation that we are supposed to be certain way and that as leaders you have to have poise and have this charisma and all of these things. And I was like, that's not me. I'm like, I was so afraid of public speaking. And now if people listen to me, they're like, Tim, you? No way. It's like, yes, like 2016, 2017.
That was one of my biggest fears. And I had that as my personal OKR that I shared with my leader and said, I want to work on this. And he gave me opportunities. He was like, we are doing this World Tour conference. Why don't you present in front of 300 people? You prepped me with the platform pitch. You know the pitch. Take 10 minutes of my 45 -minute keynote, product keynote, and let's do it. And I was like, wait, you're kidding, right? You're a f---- -.
making fun of me. He's like, no, I'm serious. Like, I think you can do it. And I was like, okay, what's the worst that could happen? I did this thing. The MC gave positive feedback and said she knows what she's doing. She was very confident up there. And I was like, wow, I did it. Like for the first time I spoke in front of this crowd. Then I did a few PMA speaking sessions. And over time, I'm building that muscle, right? Not saying I'm ready to go into a room with a thousand people, but I'm building that muscle. So for me,
it's learning how we can dream, right? So this book, Authentic Leadership, is about for the dreamers, the explorers who are not okay with the expectation. So you can actually be the change you want to be and kind of create that space. And when I cannot reason with my mind, I write with my heart and soul and that's how writing came to be. Like I knew what kind of a leader I didn't want to be. And I was very lucky to have this fearless leader.
who was always there for his team. And I wanted to be that. I was like, that's where I want to be. That's how I see what authentic leadership should be and must be. So for me, the definition of authentic leadership is be your own true self. Sounds very simple, but oftentimes we think we have to wear a mask. And I believe that we all do wear a mask when we go to work environments, when we go to, when we are with our friends and in social circles, because we are expected to be a certain way.
We're all human and we need to respect and care for each other at all times, right? Not just at the highs, when we can be together and the lows and the highs, that's the beauty of it. And I'm, I was telling my friend, like I'm so privileged and so lucky to have all of you, including you, Evan, like in my journey through the past four years, because we are unstoppable and the things we are doing matter. And I aspire to be fearless and to be that authentic leader.
that cares for my team that will always be there because otherwise why are we doing what we're doing? It doesn't make any sense for me. Yeah, true. And I think you brought a good point about having a leader within your organization or having a mentor who can help you accelerate your path and guide you. So I've been always a big believer and fan of it. And when you get lucky to have someone who is
paid to be in your organization, you're paid to be with him, I think you should take advantage of it. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it was definitely a privilege and we still stay in touch, right? Like that's the power of the impact that we have and it's mutual. We both understand the value that we bring for each our own learnings. Yeah. Before we wrap up, I want to take advantage of a couple of minutes just to pick your brain on...
product marketing on what's going to be the future. I mean, AI is becoming so fast to keep the pace with. So for people that are not familiar in general with product marketing, what is it in a couple of sentences and actually who really, in your opinion, needs a product marketer? Well, I would say everybody needs a product marketer and at the same time, everybody thinks they are a product marketer. So
There is a good and a bad to it. When I think about product marketing, it's our chance, our opportunity to really understand our customer needs, to really be the voice of the customer, the voice of the product, and the voice of the market. We can do those three things well. If I understand what my customer needs are, their pain points, if I can understand where and how we're going to be positioned and differentiated in the market.
If I can really understand the product and what it can do to be that differentiator and innovator in the market, that's it. And to do those things, you have a few disciplines. You're thinking about messaging and positioning. You're thinking about product launches, go to market, sales enablement, competitive intelligence. But those are all core components that will help you get there. But at its fundamental level, it's how can I make sure that...
We are building a product that the customer really cares about and matters and bring that voice forward. That's what it is. And that's what I've been striving to do. So breaking down even the, even the product marketing is a nascent function across the industry. We're still trying to figure out and hash out what do we want this to be? And we have seen product marketing evolve to include solutions marketing, to include technical product marketing, different teams. So.
It has become a portfolio marketing in some shape or form, but it's all part of that evolution that we are all going through as well. Yeah. And on one side, it becomes very obvious, let's say in technology, because the market is so crowded, so it's important to stand out, be unique and so on. What about other markets that are more, that are slower, that are more established and so on? Is there also a need today and in the future to...
differentiate to become unique to understand the customer? Or do you believe that is less relevant for these kind of industries? I would say it is always relevant. It's just understanding at what point in time you want to bring in. If you're bringing in your product marketing person into the team, after the product is built, it's already too late because you have lost the opportunity to really understand your customer.
to listen to the use cases, to really pay attention to who is the persona we want to go after, who is your ideal customer profile for that matter, right? Bring your product marketing in that early discovery and as you're building the product so that you can in hand in hand, think about the design, think about the user experience. What do we want our customers to do when they navigate through the product? All of those things play a big role. And that's where like,
doesn't matter what technology or if AI is the new buzzword today, we've all seen it, right? Things come and go. But as we navigate through product marketing, finding the right tools to keep you maybe efficient and productive is at the end of the day, that's all it is, right? If I can, like right now we were working on our speaking sessions for some of our...
conferences that is coming up for 2024. And we were having fun with some of the AI tools and you're like, all right, let's bring a Star Trek version into this talk track. And it did a pretty good job. And I was like, yeah, but like, we don't have to have our conference speaking sessions boring and all full of fact and no fun, right? We can bring a little bit of that personality. And so,
We are leveraging AI where it benefits us and where it doesn't be like, oh, now whatever it's saying, it doesn't make any sense. I need to redo the whole thing. So find the right balance and all the tools and technologies are out there to help us do our jobs better and more productive. So why not? Definitely. Yeah. Div, for listeners who are following or seeking for a mentorship,
What's the best way they can engage with you? I'm on LinkedIn. So if you are on LinkedIn, that's a great forum. You can find me on mentoring platforms or you can reach out to me directly if you are looking for a mentorship program. If you are into reading, I'm on Goodreads. I'm always looking for a new book to add to my own collection of reading. So feel free to reach out. I would love to hear your story. And even this has been a...
It's a true pleasure. I really enjoyed our conversation and thank you so much for having me here. Thank you for being here, Div. My pleasure. See you all in the internet world. Yes, bye.