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Most of the powerful, unguarded conversations we have as practitioners happen behind the scenes. This podcast was created to bring those conversations forward. It’s a space for real talk about client work, presence, creating powerful containers for waking others up, embodied change, and the ways we continue to grow and meet our edges as we guide others.
Barb Patterson (01:11)
Hi everyone, welcome back. This is Barb.
Aila (01:14)
And this is Aila.
Barb Patterson (01:16)
And today we're here together. We haven't done a duo in a bit, or it feels that way anyway. But today we're going to be talking about identity and even the good ones. And is there any value in even letting go, loosening up on the beliefs and identities that we like?
Aila (01:29)
Mm-hmm.
Edgy.
Barb Patterson (01:41)
So, Isla, go. What do
you think? What's your answer there?
Aila (01:47)
Yes. ⁓ well, this is on our minds because we just led a weekend with our group, the practitioners path group, and we dove into this with them and it is, it's fun for me to look at this and to even be talking more about it right now on our podcast because it feels like it feels controversial in a way.
that so much of our lives and so many self-help courses are about really reinforcing a positive identity, really pushing away limited identifications, ways that we've misunderstood ourselves and what we're capable of or what we're allowed to do, who we really are. And we really looked at this weekend, what...
What is the value? Is there value in looking deeper at what happens when we really drop out of identity, drop out of even the ones that we really love? Like, I love identifying as a really good mom. And with that comes expectations. with that comes pressure. With that comes
all the ideas I have about what being a good mom means and in a way it it hijacks me from simply meeting my moming self myself in the moment it's like a it's a layer of thinking that is interfacing it's like a it's a barrier between meeting myself in the present moment as I am without a label without a
judgment positive or negative without a identifier and This is I mean for me this is like a really interesting conversation Because it is so nice to feel the comfort of well, I know I'm a good mom. So I feel good about myself but what happens when I show up as a mom in a moment where I I'm expressing a feeling or I'm doing a behavior or I'm
letting them watch more screen time or I'm letting them have a marshmallow and what happens when life is life-ing and it's all of a sudden not in alignment with what I think I should be or how I should be. I suffer. You know, it's a way that accidentally without intention these positive identities, they not only
create expectation. But more than that, they're just, they're not, it's like a little barrier between me and the present moment. And between me and what's just really naturally occurring. And I think it's just fascinating to start to look at and get curious about, not because identity is bad. It's it's really cool to take up an identity and put it on as a mask and play with it.
but it's also really awesome to know that it's temporary. It's like our true identity, our true self, our true nature, the essence of who we are. Like that's just, it's like ever present life moving right here right now. No need for a label. Like there's no need for that. And our minds really like to create, I think my mind likes to create safety by identifying things.
And then there's just a lot of freedom, I find. It's vulnerable, but there's more freedom in a way. Feeling those identities kick up and the attachment to them. Feeling all of that fall away and unravel. And part of what Barb and I are really into and talking a lot about is transformation from this context that it's really just the unraveling of that which was never real.
first place and identity is a big one in that vein.
Barb Patterson (06:06)
Yeah, appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate the mom example too. And even the identities that we think have value or offer service or they're why we do what we do and why we can make a difference. I think there's something interesting to look at that when we've locked in and our minds have locked into a belief about ourselves or an identity.
Aila (06:07)
It'll clear you.
Barb Patterson (06:36)
it is locking into an idea, it's locking into thought, and that creates a filter. Like that's just how it works, that's how the mind works. And so that filter begins to influence us and pretty soon, just, you know, a kind of macro level, we're then responding to life based on an idea of who we think we are, or who we think we should be, rather than, as you said, like,
kind of in the moment, in real time, responding with our humanity, with the full range of who we are. You know, often good identity comes with rules, you know, and standards, and then people suffer when they don't meet those. And, you know, like, we don't meet them. We're human, right? You know, we kind of often fall beneath the standard we hope, and so...
An identity then can become like a weapon against ourselves, another way that we start to give ourselves a hard time, even if it's a low buzz hard time, you know, so it can create even noise. And so there's something like, yes, like you value parenting and you love your children. And so you want to be a good parent, of course. But saying and thinking that you have to...
That means by definition, I'm a good mom. And then you define what good mom is. There's just no way that over a course of a life in your children's life that you're going to be able to measure up to those things. And for me, it's similar. It's like to be ⁓ good in business, to really have an impact. These rules, well, I have to be. ⁓
disciplined and I've got to be focused and you know need a morning routine and it's pretty soon I'm trying to live up to something and some kind of idealized image and I think that's the tricky part and then we suffer because I'm not that I just not that you know consistently I you know we're human and and then pretty soon now we've added more
Aila (08:38)
Okay.
Barb Patterson (09:02)
thought to the mix, more problems to solve because we aren't living up to a standard, but we forget all of that is made of thought. All of that is ideas. And so, yeah, and it starts to be like, no, we can have an intention to thrive in our business or be a good parent, but how do we do that and allow the fullness of who we are, which is our humanity as well?
Aila (09:29)
Yeah. Well, that's it right there. Being willing to allow the fullness. that feels like the risky business. being willing to meet myself, like to meet what's moving through me in the moment with curiosity, with compassion, with love, especially when it's not my preference.
Barb Patterson (09:37)
Yeah.
Aila (09:59)
Like what's moving through me in the moment, especially when it's I'm frustrated with my three year old. I don't want to be frustrated with my three year old in theory. Not at all. But in truth, if that's what's moving through me in the moment, how I see it more and more is my job as a caretaker of myself is to learn to meet that in the moment, that feeling.
that sensation and to let it, like let it do what it wants to do in me. Like let it move, let it be there without shame or judgment. And I really appreciate doing this depth of work with myself while parenting, because I see it's just with the little ones, it's this perfect mirror.
It's like how much am I able to keep expanding, to hold for whatever kind of wackadoodle moments are coming through my kids. And when I really, it's like when I drop into the truth that it's like I want to hold for all of them.
And to step out of this illusion that what we are as humans are just little balls of peace and love running around. It's like, no, we're so much more complex and interesting and full of feeling and held in this field of love. Like that's the thing that I think I didn't see. it's getting clearer and clearer for me that there's no, that loving container has no preference for how we show up.
And when I'm in a preference of like, don't want to frustration or I don't feel anger. That's, that's my mind. That's thought kicking in. That's not, you know, that's, that's me meeting. That's my conditioning, meeting my conditioning, meeting my conditioning. It's not the truth of what's occurring. The truth is frustration coming forward is welcome.
Like that energy is welcome. And the more I meet it with presence and curiosity and openness, it's not, it's not like a, I'm not putting a bandaid on something. It's like, I'm letting the healing mechanism occur. ⁓ I'm letting the awakening happen. And really even, I love now even looking at feelings, frustration, anger, as those are made up labels to an energetic moving through. And I think my,
Just my appreciation for this work is how interesting it is to live in the mystery of who I am and what's going to come forward. Like what's going to come forward? I don't know what's going to come for. I don't know how I'm going to be today. I don't know what's going to happen today. And the more I'm living in that with myself, my kids, my friends, family, meeting them in the moment, it's, it's just a different quality of life.
It's different. It's richer. It's not so safe. There's not so much safeguarding everywhere. I'm like, well, you're supposed to be a really good communicator. So it's super shocking that you just said this thing that was so like, no, what if I could keep letting myself and other people off the hook by letting go of these identities I put on myself and others and just meet what is, like keep meeting what is.
Barb Patterson (13:27)
Yeah, it's a good example of like, you know, maybe in our work we think we look and somebody is having an experience that we admire or want for ourselves or the way they're moving in their life or business looks appealing. And when we're looking at it from outside, you know, outside of them, you look at behavior, you look at action. And so it looks like, that's what I...
need to be doing or we start to again make up what we think it is of the magic sauce. But really it takes us out of direct experience of what's moving through us into concepts. You know, like being confident or being a go-getter or being real or being like all these concepts that we have about
what makes us good at what we want, whether it's parenting or relationship or work. It's like, no, what you're really talking about, which I think is so cool, it's like, no, all of those ideas take us into a conceptual mind rather than just in real time, this is what's coming through me and let me be with it, let me allow it, let me express it. And then what that
creates in our work is so rich and profound and often surprising. But we all can have these habits where we're prejudging or post-judging. Like, ⁓ the critique, I need to do it this way, or I should have done it that way. If I'd only done it that way, this would have happened. And those are all indications, by the way, that you've got an idea about how you should be.
Aila (15:10)
Yeah.
Barb Patterson (15:24)
You know, those are all your first red flag that you have some idea of an image that you're trying to live up to. And again, that the suffering is coming not from what happened. It's coming from the idea that you're not somehow measuring up or getting it right.
Aila (15:46)
Yeah, and I think this is a, go ahead.
Barb Patterson (15:49)
Well, I just want to say, you and I talked about this. But I think the parenting is a really nice example, because you could see, yeah, a good parent wouldn't yell at their kids. Now, I think most people know that's an impossible sort of standard, right? But I was sharing with you that having grown up in a home where free
freedom of, like, we had a lot of love and laughter, but there were, like, certain things just weren't permissible in the home, you know? Or one person got to do that emotion, but not everybody, you know? And so I have learned, like, when I would have friends and their families were loud and boisterous, or they could fight but still love each other, or they could say hard things to each other, and that was, like...
magical to me. That was like, my gosh, my gosh, that's amazing. So I just share that because again, like even our standards, our ideas of what we think is good or ⁓ right or would lead us to what we want are limited. limited.
Aila (16:51)
you
Yeah.
Yeah. I love that. being willing to allow myself to be present to the full range of my, of, what a human can feel is like, it's such a concept. When you were talking just now, I was thinking about my kids and, and really how logical it is in me.
that I would want them ⁓ to be honest about whatever's moving through them and how like, duh, like it feels like so like, of course I want that. I want them to be honest because it is happening. It's happening in them. It's occurring in them. I don't know why they are feeling a certain way at times. I don't know. They don't know.
But it is so interesting to me how easy it is for us as adults to just override it. It's like, I don't want to feel that because I, I'm not somebody that does that. like, I don't know, just this like lack of, honesty about what's really moving through because of the judgments of like a good person and only feels these feelings or a, ⁓
business owner never feels insecure or whatever these made-up ideas are or even I think part of it part of the the attachment to identity to positive identity like I am a it's like a moral stand in a way like I am somebody who like
I don't know, like I'll always be there for you. I'm a loyal friend, there we go. Like what happens when you have four kids, babies, and ⁓ you know, life takes over in a way. That has been a really interesting one for me to look at.
That it's like so much of my positive feelings, my confidence about myself was hung up on that idea of I'm a really loyal friend. And then literally not being able to remember what day it is, let alone whose birthday or whose friend's anniversary or all this stuff that used to be so top of mind.
It presented such an opportunity for me to drop into the truth of like, God, I'm none of that. I am a good friend. am, I care. I'll say it that way. I care about my friends. There's so much loving in me. And the more I let go of this, made up expectations about what it means to be a good friend, the less I suffer. And frankly, the better friend I am in that I don't hide.
because of shame, or I don't overly apologize all the time, or I don't create a chasm between us because of the way I'm showing up that doesn't measure up to how I think I should.
Barb Patterson (20:11)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point. It's like sometimes the identity ends up being the thing that you create exactly what you don't want. So I was just thinking about the good friend thing. You you miss someone's birthday or they're going through a tough time and you.
Aila (20:26)
Yeah.
Barb Patterson (20:34)
go through a week and you haven't contacted them. And then you think about it and you're like, oh no, I really have to do that. But you feel so bad that there's like, all of a sudden you're like losing time and more days because it looks bigger now. It looks like you have to do something else because you weren't. And it's, I think that it can make things more complicated for sure.
Aila (20:42)
Okay.
Yeah.
Barb Patterson (21:03)
You know, with the group this weekend, we always say, ⁓ first, what do we see in ourselves so that we can share and point honestly from this topic? And so after kind of everyone looking at themselves, we talked about, is this valuable in our coaching and working with other people? What would be the value of pointing to someone?
that they have an area of life that they're really into. ⁓ Why would we even talk about that? But I think you're hitting on it. It's not like that we're just blanket saying identity is bad. ⁓ But people will show you, your clients, the people you're speaking with, they will show you where their ideas about who they are are creating life.
or creating pain, creating openness and expansion, or creating pressure and stress. And that, to be able to open that up for people, to help them see that they're managing, perhaps over-managing an image innocently, or they're striving because they have an idealized image of what they want to be or should be. You know, all of that added
That's a form of suffering that's coming back that's limiting their world and it's affecting their experience of themselves.
Aila (22:40)
Yeah, and I think another big clue with clients and working with clients is listening for where they want to go for something. Like they have a dream or they have a desire, but for some reason they're not moving forward on it. And I think inevitably getting more curious about what's really behind the scenes there, there's some identity that's at risk.
There's something that's like, it might fall apart if they take a step forward, or it might be brought into question. And so this kind of work of really disidentifying with labels, positive belief systems about ourselves and dropping out of thought completely into like, what is just the pure presence, the pure live energy, the purity of what's here right now, if there's a desire to move forward.
move. Like there's nothing actually at risk except that made-up identity that's not even the truth. It's a temporary role that we were playing for a little bit. But we weren't fooling anyone too. That's the other thing. I think we think we're... ⁓
Barb Patterson (23:55)
Yeah.
Aila (24:01)
Like we think we're living, living out these strong roles or these strong ways of being. But I also feel like we all know we're capable of anything. Like we're capable. I'm as a mom, I'm such a mom right now, but I'm capable of traveling the world and taking a solo trip to Europe. Like I could do anything. There's no, you know, there's nothing. ⁓
And I think that's the benefit of looking at this work for ourselves. We can bring it to our clients where we see one of them say, because I am doing this thing, I cannot do this thing. It's like, nope, the jig's up. That doesn't apply.
Barb Patterson (24:39)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah,
it creates this kind of inner conflict that ultimately is thought conflicting with thought, you know, an idea conflicting with a heart's nudge, you know, a locked in perception of themselves that limits what they think they should do. I think that's and to again unravel those places where we've
over identified with the mind, we've over identified with an idea of who we are. What's possible for ourselves and for others when we can help unravel that a little bit? You know, just get curious about it, just start to, you know, explore and see what's underneath. you know, I thinking of a client that I'm working with, and she's going through a transition and
Like her work feels a little flat to her, not as alive and inspiring. And ⁓ we've talked about this very thing because she has a lot built up around what she's created and ⁓ how she's shown up in the world. And yet it can take faith and trust in ourselves. as practitioners, that's what we...
hold that space of safety and ⁓ it's safe to look. It's safe to look at this and you don't have to act different. But can we create a container where it's safe for people to start to open up and let a little distance come in, a little space so they can hear what's maybe really present now.
Aila (26:38)
Yeah. And, and it is a mystery ride in a way that it's like, I always think I am going to know what's on the other side of letting go of an idea or seeing more around thought. But it's really, it's so much more mysterious than that. And I think that's the, the, the joy in it or the fun in it is I don't know. I don't really know what's in there. Like if I, if I'm really honest in any given moment.
where I'm meeting myself as I am seeing what's moving through right here, right now, ⁓ bringing in curiosity. It's so rich because it is literally unknown to my mind. It's like, if I don't want to be bored in life, this is the thing to do. If I want to sense a purpose, like here it is. And it's so different than I thought.
Barb Patterson (27:23)
Yeah.
Aila (27:33)
But meeting what is that intimacy inside of self for me, it's a whole different level of zest ⁓ and like aliveness. And I really can see why it's like with not doing that, there's so much pushing away.
There's so much like scaffolding, like, don't want that. And I don't, I am not going to feel that one. And I don't even want to feel the desire for that because I don't know. It's like, there's so much like controlling and just kind of doing a little bit more of a free fall into like really just Isla, like what is here right now? It's like, I'm, I'm feeling grief or whatever, whatever the thing is. And then to be present with that, everybody knows it feels good to
cry really hard for a minute. don't know what the cry is like the best thing in the world. And it's not always crying. Like sometimes there's like euphoric things that move through or feeling rage. never thought of rage is a good thing, but the more familiar I'm getting with that feeling in me, it's very powerful. And it's like, whoa, how much of my life force have I just been like cutting off?
Barb Patterson (28:27)
Bye.
Yeah.
Aila (28:52)
⁓ innocently because I've judged it. I'm not somebody who gets mad at their kids.
Barb Patterson (28:59)
Yeah,
yeah, that's not allowed. No, I think that's beautiful. And I think that's ultimately, you know, one of the things that's available when we just loosen up a little bit. And just to say, it's like...
Aila (29:02)
Really? Hmm.
Barb Patterson (29:13)
We don't lose our personalities. We don't lose what matters to us. Those things are still there. But what's possible is what you just said so beautifully. It's like, yeah, I can experience and trust more of meeting life where it is, meeting myself where it is, and not the illusion of living up to something or trying to control something.
Aila (29:40)
Yeah. You know, I'm going to say one more thing and it just kind of occurred to me that one of the ones that I, the identifiers, I see so much with the clients I work with who are leaders and practitioners and coaches. And I, and I really, I see it. I know I see it in them because I've really worked it in myself a lot is that I'm not somebody that gets my feelings hurt. I'm very strong and I don't get my feelings. don't, I don't let people hurt my feelings.
And it's just been a game changer the last couple years to see what happens when I let that go. And just the closeness I have felt with myself but with other people from being willing to meet those feelings with real compassion and tenderness.
Again, it's like, think ⁓ I'm bringing it up because I feel like there's a lot of people in the world feeling lonely and looking for more intimacy and looking for a bigger sense of purpose or meaning or zest or something like that. And I feel like spend a day or a week just being curious about what's moving through you and saying hello to it without judgment. You're going to come alive. Like there's so much in that.
Yeah.
Barb Patterson (31:01)
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think
that's seriously a great place to end that, you know, if you got more willing to just rather than try and be something or live up to something, if you just allowed, what would that orientation, all of it, any of it, just see what that offers.
Aila (31:26)
Yeah, because we're, spoiler alert, we're already enough. We're already loved. We're already lovable. We're already okay. Yeah. All right. Thank you everyone for listening. Bye.
Barb Patterson (31:29)
Yeah. ⁓
Thank you. Bye bye.