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The biggest shifts in a business often come from decisions no one else sees.
Future Proof is a show for business owners facing the pressure to grow and the weight of legacy, often at the same time.
Hosted by Scott Eckart, each episode features honest conversations with leaders who’ve made bold moves, stepped into succession, or redefined success altogether. You’ll hear what they were up against, what they chose, and what they’d do differently now.
If you're thinking about what's next and want to build a business that lasts, this is the show for you.
Scott Eckart (00:01):
I am Scott Eckart, and this is Future Proof, A show for building something that lasts. Let's get into it. On today's show, we have Mark Miller, the founder and president of Cornerstone Environmental Services, located here in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Mark Miller (00:17):
I had a lot of people who had been with me from almost from the start, had been very integral into our success and what had involved was a very good culture. So we took care of each other, I could rely upon them, they could rely upon me, and that
Scott Eckart (00:33):
Takes time to build. Our theme for today's show is Answer the Call. You'll hear from Mark and me about his succession and exit plan.
Mark Miller (00:42):
Ultimately, I was trying to close out what I wanted to accomplish, but just as important was taking care of my people. And so I talked through what I believed to be the opportunity, how it would benefit the ongoing company, how it would then therefore benefit them, that they would still be there taking place. It would be a safe, what I considered a safe place for them and that they could continue to grow and develop their professional experience.
Scott Eckart (01:12):
Welcome to Future Proof. My name is Scott Eckhart and I am very excited to have with us today Mr. Mark Miller. Mark, can you say hello?
Mark Miller (01:20):
Hello. Glad to be here.
Scott Eckart (01:21):
Yeah, thanks for being with me today. Mark is the president and founder of Cornerstone Environmental Health and Safety, founded in 1995, and his company provides innovative, sustainable solutions for protecting human health in the environment. It sounds very cool. That's the big picture. Mark, what would you add to that? When people say, Hey, what's Cornerstone?
Mark Miller (01:44):
I think that encapsulates it pretty good. We're a consulting company primarily working with manufacturers, so all around the us, Canada and Mexico. And then with the recent changes within our organization that expanded to sustainability and energy, all in service of helping those companies do what they're supposed to be doing and to maybe do it a little bit better.
Scott Eckart (02:07):
And then in 2024, you merged with a company called Foresight, which really doubled your team, and that's where our story begins today, which is very exciting. So tell me a little bit about Foresight and kind of what that means for this local company that you bought and you started and your baby.
Mark Miller (02:25):
So with the merge with Foresight, it was very excited because we as a company just focused on EHS, which is environmental Health and Safety for many, many years. We're looking for what our next growth moment was going to be, and we had identified really that sustainability was where most of these companies were heading outside of just EHS. So foresight really brought that to the table for us and why I engaged with them and ultimately merged to compliment what we were doing.
Scott Eckart (02:55):
So for the uninformed, like myself, sustainability is what?
Mark Miller (02:59):
So sustainability is a lot of different things, but it works on greenhouse gas calculations, it works on energy procurement, taxation of energy. There's a lot of money spent within the manufacturing sector that doesn't necessarily have to be. And then a roadmap to reduction of chemicals and things that not necessarily you want to do. And certainly the people you're selling to don't want you to be doing.
Scott Eckart (03:24):
You probably can't pick up something in the news or online without hearing about all the stuff that you guys do every day. So it's everywhere. So that's today, but years ago, where did that idea for a cornerstone even come from?
Mark Miller (03:37):
It's one of those kind of wild stories I didn't necessarily seek out and say, Hey, I got an idea to start an environmental company
Scott Eckart (03:44):
Because in 1990, even before 94, I mean that was not really a thing, right?
Mark Miller (03:50):
Yeah. Well, it was starting, a lot of it was just clean up, remediation, as they call it, Superfund, those types of things. So rules and regulations were just starting to expand, but I fell into it by chance. It's a pretty good story. So all entrepreneurs, I've been doing other things. So I had a stint in the oil business. I've been doing real estate development looking for just kind of the next thing and partnered up with a guy and we just pooled resources and said, okay, let's see what you find. I'll see what I find. And we found some proprietary information, started a little manufacturing company on the side, but one of the things I did was I was traveling and the proverbial sitting next to somebody on a plane, didn't talk to him at all during the whole time and kind of resolve at the end. I said, okay, so what do you do with about 10 minutes left to go? And so he started telling me, he said, we've started coming together with some solutions for the ever-changing environmental field, think it's really going to take off. So took his name card, I was intrigued, and he offered me an opportunity to buy into the company.
Scott Eckart (04:57):
All for sitting on an airplane.
Mark Miller (04:59):
All for sitting on an airplane. Who knew?
Scott Eckart (05:01):
That's right. Yes. Yeah, that was producing carbon and doing all the bad things, right?
Mark Miller (05:06):
So, so I was intrigued with that, and that progressed to joining with them, and then it took a long path. Part of that was they went a different direction. I was having a lot of success in the Midwest. They were out west, so we kind of divorced ourselves from that. I bought them out, took off from there.
Scott Eckart (05:23):
So part of what Future Proof is and the people who listened to the show are entrepreneurs, but also people who are thinking about maybe I want to do my own thing. So you went to a little school down the road called IU. Do you go to school to become an entrepreneur? Do you wake up one day and say, I'm an entrepreneur? How does one know if they're an entrepreneur? How do you sit on a plane and say, that's really cool, I'm going to buy that company?
Mark Miller (05:47):
I think my story started probably from my father. So my father was not high school educated. He didn't graduate from high school, but what he did is he worked a short stint with a company, but then he taught self engineering. And so he became a structural engineer and had his own company and his edict was really nothing more than to do something he could control and take care of his family. It was all about family. How do I put food on the table? Simple as that. So he didn't have a lot of background in business and so on, but he muddled his way through and found his way and put a couple kids through college and got us to where we need to be.
Scott Eckart (06:24):
That's pretty bold. And then I happened to know his kind of magnum opus design was a pretty famous stadium.
Mark Miller (06:32):
Yes. Yeah. From that humble beginning, he was chosen to do the structural engineering on the first Miami Stadium and some other key projects around the
Scott Eckart (06:43):
Country. So advice to anyone thinking about becoming an entrepreneur that might hear this, what is that? What would you say about taking the leap? What do you do?
Mark Miller (06:52):
Well, for me, the whole key thing about being an entrepreneur. So you have to determine that you really don't want to work for people. Now,
Scott Eckart (07:00):
Is that an ego thing? Is it a pride thing? What does it do for you though?
Mark Miller (07:03):
Well, I think it's that independence. It's the control factor of knowing what you maybe can do and having that aspiration. It certainly was for me. I never wanted limits. I never wanted somebody to tell me, this is what you can make and you can't do any more than that. That was my driver.
Scott Eckart (07:20):
So here's a hard question.
Mark Miller (07:22):
Yeah.
Scott Eckart (07:22):
Was it about the money?
Mark Miller (07:24):
No, I didn't set out with, I want to make this amount of money. Yes, I wanted things, I wanted to do things. I wanted to have a better life, didn't come up with a lot of money.
Scott Eckart (07:35):
Yeah, that story, that is a common factor for
Mark Miller (07:38):
Sure. So yeah, I kind of learned from the beginning to do what I had to do to get me where I needed to be. Okay.
Scott Eckart (07:43):
Okay. So not the number one thing, not money, but it came along the way. Yeah, sure. Okay, sure. Alright, great. So on future proof, one of the things that we talk about a lot are pivots. So I'm going to bring up a pivot that I got to be a small part of. I remember you and I were chatting and you said to me, Hey, I met a team. They're not from Indiana and they're really interested in Cornerstone. Can we talk about that day? I know it started before, but this is when I remember where we were standing and I was kind of like, oh. So in my world, in my role, I hear that a lot and I almost kind of tune it out because people don't respond. They like to say, people acknowledge me or they saw me on the internet or they LinkedIn, but you took 'em seriously. Why did you take them seriously?
Mark Miller (08:40):
It probably sounds like it was just a single pivot moment, if you will, but it was a sequence of steps. I had had to come to the realization the first that it was time and I wanted to, so I had explored several options and had talked with the president of Foresight and we had just bounced it off each other. So it was kind of a slow percolate and he was looking for growth. And kind of the pivot moment was he came back to me and said, I've done all these things. I've been talking to this group. They want to buy us. You don't want to do that. I don't want to sell dah, dah, dah. And our conversations have just struck a chord with me. I want to work with people I
Scott Eckart (09:25):
Like.
Mark Miller (09:26):
That was the
Scott Eckart (09:26):
Moment. So you're a culture guy. I remember also you felt very strongly about them in that regard. That was a comfort for you because your people have been with you a very long time. You care deeply about your team. Talk to me about culture and who they were and why that was such a great fit.
Mark Miller (09:44):
I had a lot of people who had been with me from almost from the start had been very integral into our success. And what had involved was a very good culture. So we took care of each other. I could rely upon them, they could rely upon me, and that takes time to build. And so in having that conversation with the president of Foresight, those were the questions I was asking him. We really didn't talk about money upfront and what the deal would look like. We talked about what are your beliefs, what's your focus? Why are you doing this, why did you get into it? And then also how do you treat your people? What's your purpose, mission, values, and we made sure those aligned. So it was real interesting because I would say 70, 80% of what his paper was and my paper were very, very close.
Scott Eckart (10:35):
So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you had no idea that he had all the other stuff financially in order, and you're telling me you would've walked from the table if the culture hadn't been right. Is that what I'm hearing?
Mark Miller (10:48):
It would've made it more difficult situation. Yeah. Ultimately I was trying to close out what I wanted to accomplish, but just as important was taking care of my people. And so I had stayed away from other opportunities and people I had pretty lengthy discussions about and found out that in many cases, as it exists out there, they want certain things from you. They want certain pieces from your company. They will indicate that, yeah, we want you to stay on. We're going to take care of your people. But if you dial a little bit further, you find out what's been your past experience. And I checked
Scott Eckart (11:24):
Into that. So one of the piece of advice you might have to people listening who are thinking about selling or merging is how do you do the due diligence that you need to do? Is that intuition? What help is out there for this kind of thing?
Mark Miller (11:37):
I don't think it's intuition. I had to reach out. That was new ground for me. I had come to that realization. In fact, people were starting to ask me that question, what are you going to do? What's your timing? At first I was like, I don't really know, and I don't know what that timing looks like, but that evolved. And so you were a resource. I needed an attorney to handle any type of transaction. So that was a resource. I talked to people about how do you go about financing the deal? And probably one of the more key questions was an analysis and evaluation of what my company was really worth because we all have our mindset of what we think we're worth, what our companies are. And that's anywhere from close to totally wildly off.
Scott Eckart (12:25):
Crazy. Yeah, we were just talking about that the other day in the workshop. I insist that people do that well before deals on the table because the sad thing is that you have to tell somebody you may need it to be worth more and the best time to sell your company is when you don't have to, right? Because there might be ways to increase the value. There might be ways to take some of the risk off the table, which makes the company worth more.
Mark Miller (12:52):
So all those were considerations, certainly. So I probably paid for two or three serious valuations, looked at one group that was just very conservative. They were known for being at the negotiating table with companies. When it went bad, I figured they gave me a pretty good perspective of the conservative side. I went to a group that is out there in the market in brokers deals, and with the idea of I might perhaps work with them to sell the company went through a careful analysis at that point. So it gave me a really good basis to understand truly what the company was, what it's worth. And we're a service oriented company, so not a lot of assets, hard assets, those
Scott Eckart (13:35):
Type of things, desk computers, that
Mark Miller (13:36):
Kind of thing. So we have customers, we have reoccurring revenue, we had software, we had different elements. But
Scott Eckart (13:43):
Did people put value on that? Another hard question, did they talk about the value of the brand Cornerstone and coupled with foresight, what did that do to the value? Do you have any idea?
Mark Miller (13:53):
They did talk about it a little bit. A lot of the valuations didn't put a lot of credence in that. And actually a couple of people that I talked to first said, yeah, that's okay, but we have our own brand. You do similar things to us. We have our brand,
Scott Eckart (14:07):
So that's nice. But no thank you.
Mark Miller (14:09):
Yes. But strategically for us, and the reason the foresight Match worked so well was that it was a compliment. So they saw the value in the brand and the systems that we had created in the software we had developed and saw opportunity to not only expand what we were doing by brand, but expand their existing platform.
Scott Eckart (14:31):
That was the unique characteristic. And the reason I bring that up is because beauty's in the eye of the beholder. Oftentimes business owners are in an echo chamber and they hear what they want to hear and they think, who wouldn't want to buy this brand just alone and of itself? It's worth X. And somebody has to come in and say, well, it's actually worth y. And they look at it and they say, well, that's not what I'm actually after. And so it's something quite different and therefore something potentially quite less than it is. And I always say to people, it's like selling your house. And so it's full of memories and all these wonderful things, but the person coming driving by the curb says, yeah, I'm going to repaint it. I'm going to knock that thing off. I'm going to do all the stuff, and it's not worth nearly what you think. And so sometimes I get to be the bearer of that bad news, I
Mark Miller (15:23):
Imagine.
Scott Eckart (15:24):
And so that's where we want to go all the way around and say, okay, before somebody's coming up with a terrible offer and you're like, Scott, I'm not taking that. And I'm like, I know, but let's run the drill. Let's see what we have.
Mark Miller (15:38):
It was very helpful for me. I think without it, I would've just jumped in and taken the first offer. I learned a lot through that process and whether I was ready to sell right at that moment or not, it ended up that way. But I wasn't doing it with the idea of I got to know this because I'm going to sell. At that moment, it was future.
Scott Eckart (15:57):
So that's all the company stuff. Now we're going to switch. And another pivot is Mark, person, husband, dad. Now granddad, congratulations, by the way, super fun. They're super cute. We're going to go back to your readiness. Takes a lot of courage, in my opinion. I work with a lot of business owners and they really waffle back and forth, back and forth. I'm going to go, I'm not going to go. I'm going to do this. I'm not going to do this. And it's almost like for me, it's exhausting because when I show up and we have these meetings, I almost don't know who I'm going to meet with that day, which person? Right, exactly. So I want to talk about your thought process and think about our listeners and helping them. You did not do that. And every time that we would talk, you were extremely consistent. You had a North star at that point. And let's talk about the whys behind this whole thing. You were pretty solid in this decision. Let's talk about you getting ready for this. So in my world, we have continuity issues and we have succession, and then we have exit. So you're now in this place, a beautiful career, wonderful things happening, and now it's time. So let's talk about how you got to that point.
Mark Miller (17:18):
From the outside, it always looks like it was easy, right?
Scott Eckart (17:22):
Sure. The duct just moves very smoothly across the water. But
Mark Miller (17:26):
Maybe I'm good at masking that. Yeah, it just came to me. So I had a lot of reflection in it. And I think one of the things that really drove me to it was once I really started talking about it and understanding where I was at, I've never been one to follow age and at this time you should be doing this or those kinds of things. So that wasn't necessarily the driver. And I'm pretty much not a retirement kind of guy. I'm too active. I have too many hobbies and do different things. As I started through the process, I did a lot of reflection within myself and what I wanted to do, but I also did reflection and discussion on it with my team because it involved them. And so when I came upon what I thought was a great opportunity, I sat down with each of my key team members and explained why.
(18:20):
I thought it was time that I didn't feel we could move the company forward with the way we existed at the moment, the only way to grow exponentially in these other markets was a big influx of capital time. And I guess I was tired of that at that point. And so I talked through what I believed to be the opportunity, how it would benefit the ongoing company, how it would then therefore benefit them, that they would still be there taking place. It would be a safe, what I considered a safe place for them and that they could continue to grow and develop their professional experience. And that part of the arrangement was that I would stay on for a bit so that it'd be familiar, but I wasn't the guy saying, this is what's going to happen
Scott Eckart (19:16):
Today. So that very first conversation, and it doesn't matter who it was, was it scary or nervous or was it a relief for you? Was it great to just finally get it out there to the first person when you revealed Besides Jude, right? Yeah, besides Jude, right? No, it wasn't scary. Okay. No. Was it exhilarating then? Was it like we're doing this or
Mark Miller (19:41):
Yeah, I wanted affirmation. We don't need it all the time, but it's good to have. But I think it was the affirmation of I just think this is a great thing to do for all of us. And so as I began talking, I didn't get any really kickback other than it's not going to be the same. And did you get some of that? Sure. Okay. Yeah, I think that's natural. Were there any tears on the part of your team? I think a little bit more, just from a personal standpoint, we're close and does that mean you're going away and I'm not going to see anymore, which we're nice, but you're selling it. The affirmation that they thought that it would be a good thing for them, and they
Scott Eckart (20:21):
Came to understand, that was great. But that's also predicated on the fact that there was a huge amount of trust in you though, and you felt that you could go there. And that's not always the case in a team where there might be some not trust or some suspicion or other things where, because I talked to several owners where they say, Scott, I cannot reveal this yet because people head for the doors. And so compliment to you is the fact that you could go to the team and you could reveal the plan. The only way it can work,
Mark Miller (20:55):
I have to credit my team I think with that because there's five dysfunctions of a company. But the first level is trust. And to get trust, you have to have vulnerability. And so vulnerability comes with not weakness, it comes with strength, but it opens yourself up. And by doing that, you open up the other people you work with. And I think if I've done
Scott Eckart (21:15):
Anything well, I think I did that well with my team. That is such a great point, mark, that it takes a strong person to be vulnerable. And then I believe it also gives people permission to be vulnerable, but to also be strong in a way that goes through the organization. And I know you've gone to great lengths to model that. One of my favorite phrases is if serving is beneath you, leadership is beyond you,
Mark Miller (21:38):
Right? Yeah.
Scott Eckart (21:39):
Servant
Mark Miller (21:39):
Leadership.
Scott Eckart (21:40):
That's right. And serving the team. So Mark, to pivots a couple other as we go back in time, two to three pivots in the history of Cornerstone that the company could have gone one way or the other, good or bad, doesn't matter. What were some of those that have changed the trajectory of Cornerstone 20
Mark Miller (22:00):
Years ago, probably close to, we had a Japanese company that we were doing work with, manufacturing had done a good job for them and had an opportunity to sit down with the president of the company. And that president sat down and said, you guys have done a great job with what you're doing. You're small company, you've served us well, and what you're doing is very valuable and would be very valuable to a lot of Japanese companies. And he said, so if you're open to it, I'm willing to help you. And so he gave me right away three key points and things to do.
Scott Eckart (22:37):
Sorry to interrupt, but two or three key things that were important to Japanese culture, correct?
Mark Miller (22:43):
Correct.
Scott Eckart (22:44):
So that you wouldn't stumble.
Mark Miller (22:46):
Correct.
Scott Eckart (22:46):
Which a lot of people wouldn't do. They would watch you stumble.
Mark Miller (22:51):
Yes. It was a very unique situation. So he said, number one, get your card done in Japanese. He said, number two, join the Japan American society. And he said, number three, learn our culture. And he said, if you do that, then I'll help you. And that was a pivotal moment for our company. I think in the next few years we probably doubled in size bringing on Japanese companies. And today about a third to 40% of our business is Japanese owned.
Scott Eckart (23:20):
So what a gift that was. What a gift. Why do you think that man did that?
Mark Miller (23:25):
I don't know. That was his path. He was very kind. We were obviously doing something right and he appreciated what we did and how we came across to him. So we were the benefactors,
Scott Eckart (23:38):
Little Zionsville Indiana company in Japan. And as I understand it, you also developed some great with people that you still have today,
Mark Miller (23:47):
Right? Absolutely.
Scott Eckart (23:48):
Yeah.
Mark Miller (23:48):
Yeah.
Scott Eckart (23:48):
That's really beautiful.
Mark Miller (23:50):
So a few years later, we're going along and we had probably four of our key engineering team decide they were young guys that they had been there a while, wanted to experience other things, and were leaving. Boom. And we were probably busier than we'd ever been. We're on this great curve. Things are going well, okay, this is fun. And then within about a week or two you're like, oh, no. So that was a testament to our team. There's nothing to do, but grab yourself the boots and pull 'em up and see what you can do. So did they leave those four left? Yeah, I could not recover from them. I could not.
Scott Eckart (24:35):
So it wasn't thinking about doing, here's what we
Mark Miller (24:38):
Did, here's what we did.
Scott Eckart (24:39):
They were out. They were out.
Mark Miller (24:40):
Wow. And it was a little snowball effect, which can happen in an organization. If you don't react quickly, the next person goes, well, you got a pretty good deal here. Or those type of things. Anyway, we obviously came through it, but what I learned from it, I was able to find replacements and it supported my faith in always keeping the faith and keeping that front and forward with my team. But I think really important was I learned that people didn't have to be channeled into just the job they have, because I had people that said, I don't do that, but I'll do what we need to do. And we all rallied around and we said, we'll make it through this. And we did, and we found other people and they were better than the people that we had originally, and we prospered again. So it was the next level type thing.
Scott Eckart (25:30):
So that which
Mark Miller (25:32):
Doesn't kill you, makes
Scott Eckart (25:33):
You stronger, makes you stronger.
Mark Miller (25:35):
Sure does. Wow. And I got one more if you want it. Yeah, hit me. So this certainly follows along your path in talking to a lot of people who owns company. So I know you really try to protect people from those things that can really bring a company down, the four Ds, I think you
Scott Eckart (25:51):
Call it. Yes. Five Ds.
Mark Miller (25:52):
Yes. Five Ds.
Scott Eckart (25:53):
Okay.
Mark Miller (25:53):
Five Ds. And right up top is death.
Scott Eckart (25:55):
Yes.
Mark Miller (25:56):
Right.
Scott Eckart (25:57):
Sadly. But
Mark Miller (25:57):
Yes, sadly yes. So I had a near miss, if you will. I had a medical emergency when I was over in Japan. I was out pretty much out of hat for about five weeks. And four of those were, I was in a foreign country and no access and everything else. So the company had to keep running and functioning and doing what they do.
Scott Eckart (26:18):
We don't have a choice, didn't have a
Mark Miller (26:20):
Choice. And they did. Fortunately, we had some things set up pretty well from a succession. Everybody knew their role, their responsibility, they would take care of the business. But what I found out is that I thought I had a good plan, but I had gaps. So I think the lesson is I think people set up their succession and if they're smart enough and able to and they set up a plan, then you got to test the plan. That was my takeaway from it. You got to test it and you got to find some, hopefully not in that situation, but it's kind of curious to see how people would do that and how would they, in reflection, how would they test what they've already set out? So you help 'em do that, but are there any other gaps? So those are kind of points, I don't know what you tell people or if that's part of what you do
Scott Eckart (27:13):
Is test it. Yeah. So real quick, one of the phase one concepts that we do is, and I call it fire drill, which is a little severe, but two things. One is we line all of your people up against the wall, not literally. And we say, who leaves you that hurts the most from a job transition? Your four engineers, we identify those people immediately. And then that is a project to say, what are we doing? Do we care if they leave? How bad does that hurt you? And is there someone who can take them over? And then do we have that process in every department of cross training? So that's number one. Number two, if they are irreplaceable, that's kind of a problem. And what are we doing for that? And number three, if they are, then let's figure out how we do the golden handcuffs.
(28:09):
So that is a specialty in part of the coaching process, but it also is a peace of mind factor for the owner and steering into the conversation, not away from it. A lot of business owners don't want to have the conversation because they don't want to reveal to that person how important they are. But the fact of the matter is they know how important they are and it's a good thing to actually have the conversation. The second fire drill we do is to run the Five Ds on paper while everybody is around. So recently I did that conversation, I established what I call an executive council, and it's far better to do that when the president or CEO O is sitting with me at the table and points to the person that is going to take over in the event of like yourself, I'm in Japan, I'm in ICU, I can't speak.
(28:58):
And everyone knows. And so when we do it in the mock situation, even though sometimes people say, oh, that'll never happen. For them to say this is who I've selected in the calm, is very reassuring to everybody. So we run the Five Ds, which are death, disability, divorce, debt, and departure. Not the great beyond, but a partner leaves and we just run the scenario and then we do look for the gaps. And very often those gaps can be solved pretty easily. And one of the things we do is I love you letter, which is simply, I love you guys and I put it all in. And you would be shocked, mark, at the amount of things that people don't put in writing. And so just because I had a conversation with you or my wife or a trusted advisor, and it's not in writing, I can't bring that into the boardroom because you might say, well, I had an understanding with Drew that this is what I wanted.
(30:01):
And I say, I had a different understanding with Drew that this is what he wanted. Now we have a misunderstanding, and that happens in personal estate planning between siblings that happens in business between partners. And so the big takeaway here is please write things down and better yet have conversations when you're healthy. And you can have the why behind the what. I have so many cautionary tales of the things, and you can save yourself so much heartache and save that company and everybody knows what to do. And thankfully everything turned out great for Cornerstone and the Miller family, but it doesn't always do that. That's the continuity piece. And whether you're 35, 55, 85 as a business owner, every business needs a continuity plan that needs to sit in an envelope or on some computer somewhere. And it's if in emergency break the glass right and there it is, and it costs you nothing except for a little time to write it down. So big takeaway. So Mark, one of the things that is a big part of your life, we talked all about starting this business, running it and all that, but there's a whole nother cast of characters out there.
(31:17):
And a new phrase that I've just absolutely latched onto that I love is instead of work-life balance is work-life integration. And so in the middle of all this, you and your amazing wife, Jude, have four children, started a family, three of them international adoptions, which is a whole nother podcast for us, which is a beautiful story who are now adults and have their own children, which is a generational story. Another beautiful thing to watch. And you've done all of this while growing this business. Here's my question. How could you possibly have done all of this and being a dad is so important to you or super involved in their school? I mean, what thoughts do you have for these entrepreneurs out there who are, can you have it all, mark?
Mark Miller (32:09):
The answer is no. To be honest. I guess you have to decide what all means to you. Certainly, right? But I've been very blessed. I believe I've been somewhat successful, but I'm most proud of that success as my family. So I think it's making just early determinations. And that started with my lovely wife, Judy, and we were very fortunate where we are very open about things and talk about things she was on my faith had to be and kind of my rock I went to her with about everything. And I think that advice is for anybody to find that person that might not be a role of your wife, but it can be somewhere else. But we just made those commitments early on and one of the things we determined was this, that the money wasn't everything and that we wanted to have a good life together. We wanted to have children, and that if we're going to do that right then as a father, I needed to be there. And so it was a conscious effort. It doesn't come easy, especially when you're trying to run a business, but you have to take the time and make sure everybody's getting the nurturing part they need. And that's far more rewarding than the money to me.
Scott Eckart (33:31):
There were some decisions then at Cornerstone, I think you said you could have developed a software company out of it. I mean, there were definitely things that you didn't do right as of time.
Mark Miller (33:43):
Yeah, I think so. And yeah, the effort versus the time that went into it, yeah, those were choices I think in and around Cornerstone. I had other thoughts of things I wanted to do and could I have gone off somewhere else? And maybe that was easier, but again, it just didn't match with my ethos and what we were trying to accomplish.
Scott Eckart (34:03):
And so did you make any pre decisions that kept you from losing your way? Because a lot of entrepreneurs that I know, their marriages didn't make it just to be quite frank. And what were those pre decisions would you say like, we're going to stay in Zionsville or we're not going to, I don't know, just throwing things out, guardrails that kept you where you needed to be?
Mark Miller (34:24):
I think we liked the community. We liked where we were at. We had some interesting dynamics. Having a family that was international in nature, and coming from adoption, there are certain things that you deal with uniquely. And so we had our kids at a particular school that was key to us and that we wanted that international experience. So we had our kids at an international school. I'd say the other guardrails were travel was always important to us and that focus with our family. So we marched our kids through the airport with little suitcases and they just followed us through and we went various places around the world and that was our experience and their life experiences that I think they'll always carry with them.
Scott Eckart (35:09):
Well, and I didn't grow up with money at all, but I have come to learn that resources create experiences. And some people say pursuit for things, but I think this is where you and I vibe a lot together is that it has created an opportunity to provide experiences and why I don't really want to give my children money, just here's money. But we have been able to provide experiences and those have been very rich, and I know that you have been able to really do that for your children and have done some pretty amazing things. Cornerstone has provided that I guess,
Mark Miller (35:43):
And I think it's provided beyond my family. I think it's when you're sitting there and you have a company and you go to a company event and you think about how many people you're responsible for, I like to think it provided opportunities there as well, and for their children and their spouses. That's very rewarding.
Scott Eckart (35:59):
I hope it is. And I hope that is something that you can sit in that you and Jude can really sit in that and you can really take that with you always and know that because business owners are always thinking about everybody else. And I say that to them. I go, my job is to worry about you. You're worried about everybody else and nobody's thinking about you. And that's why people hire me, right? Is to worry about them. And I say, you come first if they'll allow you to. Right? Exactly. You come first, everybody else comes second because all you do is think about everybody else and you've led everywhere. You've been Mark at that school and in the community, and you keep finding yourself in these leadership positions. So I have to ask you what comes next? You're running through the tape, you have left it all in the field, but you are not done. I know this. What comes next for Mark Miller?
Mark Miller (36:50):
Well, I think some of the typical things there. You always want more time to explore hobbies. I'm a car guy, so that kind of fell to the wayside over the years. I don't get to work on cars as much as I used to and I love music. But I think more just from a fulfilling standpoint, I've got to stay in the game and try to find what that next opportunity is. And so what's next right now is evolving. So it's a segue out of what I'm doing, and that was part of the arrangement. So getting closer and closer to that. And I think a big part of that's letting go and realizing what your role is now and what it was and letting them go and take it. It's their baby. So I'm able to do that now and feel that's in a good spot.
(37:40):
And I'm still an investor, so always there to help out, so on. But two things that I like to do and want to explore further is mentoring. I've had the opportunity and think I've done a pretty good job on the opportunities that I have had to mentor in the past and certainly employees and so on, but certain individuals. So I enjoy that in young men trying to bring them up, lift them up and coaching. I love it. I've learned a lot in the last couple of years through this whole process through I think more vulnerability than I ever had. And I like to share that and carry that on
Scott Eckart (38:15):
Because as we are looking forward, a big dearth out in the business, everybody wants to talk about numbers and all that, and there's plenty of people doing that. What they're not talking about is the dynamic, the human dynamic. And so there is a dearth there for the coaching and the actual leadership part of what's happening, especially for this next gen, right? A lot of the planning that we do is to set up the very orderly transition because if we have to plan in an emergency, it does not go well. Sometimes we have to do that. And so a much longer plan, and that's where succession comes in. We talked about continuity. Succession is much longer and it can happen in a lot of ways. And in my opinion, mentoring is the way to make that happen. And it needs to be intentional and it needs to be done with purpose and on purpose. If you can do succession well, then you can have a great exit plan. And so I think one of the themes for this show is that you had the courage to answer the call. That's how I see it, and not a lot of business owners do, because I think they say they do, but when it comes to it, they can't give up. So here's a hard question for you, mark. How are you doing with letting go?
Mark Miller (39:32):
I get asked that a lot more from my employees
Scott Eckart (39:35):
And
Mark Miller (39:35):
Former employees, really some of my team members. So I had that discussion yesterday.
Scott Eckart (39:40):
Really? Why are they asking you that?
Mark Miller (39:43):
Well, I think just because of our closeness,
Scott Eckart (39:46):
They feel the freedom.
Mark Miller (39:47):
Yeah,
Scott Eckart (39:48):
That's cool.
Mark Miller (39:48):
They feel open to do that, which is wonderful. I did something right. I guess they can do that. But the question is somewhat loyalty. The question was do they really understand what value you can still bring to this? It's somewhat, mark probably wouldn't have done it that way. I certainly, there's times when I feel that, but my response to her was that, look for a company to grow and be effective. I'm going to be out of here. And if they're going to grow and soar, then they
Scott Eckart (40:22):
Have to do it on their and emerge. And I hope everybody's hearing that. I hope everybody is really hearing what Mark just said, that if I'm in the room for good or for ill people cannot emerge in the role that they need to. Is that fair?
Mark Miller (40:35):
That's my take.
Scott Eckart (40:36):
And there's a new book coming out and it's called Mattering, which is very interesting to me because when I went through some of my training to work as a certified family business specialist, so we deal with a lot of family business too. There's this concept called theory of re-engagement. And so for Mark, he needs to re-engage somewhere, but the newer concept is the idea of mattering, which takes it to a whole nother level and business owners who are the founder. So this is a big difference, a big deal versus second gen, third gen, you are the founder and there is a particular difference and they think they don't matter anymore. And this is not your issue. Clearly you have established, you have separated. Many business owners cannot do that because they are the business and the business is them. And if I'm not in the room, I don't matter anymore. And that's what keeps them from taking the money. They can't do it. It's a great deal. It makes all the sense in the world. It will allow them to live the life they want to live. But somewhere in their brain, mark, they think they're not going to matter anymore, and I can't do anything about that. And so part of this whole thing is if I can't leave the room and let others emerge, that's what is so very difficult for business owners.
Mark Miller (41:58):
Yeah, that's interesting because part of that that you wish they could know is when they do remove themselves and the freeing up, I had a moment when something happened at the office and it was kind of a critical decision this last year, and I was involved in employee or money on an account or something, and I was able to, they said, well, what do you think? And I was able to talk, but you know what? When I got home and I was talking to Judy, I go, I didn't carry that home. I didn't carry that home any longer. And if you could get that in everybody's head of really when they make the shift and how freeing that is from everything you've done over the years, maybe we can coach people up to that and I hope you can. But that was the moment and it was like, so I'm okay.
Scott Eckart (42:53):
Yeah,
Mark Miller (42:54):
That's the bottom line.
Scott Eckart (42:54):
And I lived to fight another day. So the takeaway here I think is that if you don't start talking about it, or at least bringing in the other people that are not in the business and having the conversation with them, begin to try it on for size. If you wait until post-sale, it's too late, then you can't really get there. Mark, I love that you mentioned this Five dysfunctions. Could you just rip through those five dysfunctions for me?
Mark Miller (43:20):
Yeah. So that book's written by Patrick Lencioni, so he wrote that book as well as the Six Working Genius, which I love both of them. They just wrap around a lot of other books. So I really enjoy that rocket fuel. It kind of really ties back to Rocket Fuel, which I know you're a big proponent of. So the five dysfunctions are really, so these are all based on what's wrong and then therefore you have to fix 'em. So lack of trust, fear of conflict, lack of commitment, so lack of accountability. And then finally is attention to results. So that was a study that we've been doing over the last couple years. And I think I mentioned vulnerability. You can't start to have trust until you can deal with the vulnerability issue. And if your people don't trust you, you can't open them up to further discussions through the whole business cycle.
Scott Eckart (44:16):
And I would think there would be a risk in even starting that if you're not planning on doing anything about it. So it's almost like let's just pretend none of those exist if we're not going to be thinking
Mark Miller (44:25):
About it. If it's going to be you're running the show and you're doing it your way,
Scott Eckart (44:29):
It doesn't really matter. It
Mark Miller (44:30):
Doesn't really matter.
Scott Eckart (44:31):
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Miller (44:32):
It depends on what kind of business you have and what you want out of it.
Scott Eckart (44:35):
So that's one of the secrets to Cornerstone success has been getting into some of those things and that's part of your culture.
Mark Miller (44:41):
Yeah, I think I learned it more in structure later in the life. I did things more intuitive, but those concepts weren't foreign to me when I read that book.
Scott Eckart (44:50):
So looking to the future, and for our listeners, we've got some young entrepreneurs out there who are just getting started. They may have just purchased their first business. We have serial entrepreneurs. Couple big things for them, mark, as they're getting started, if you know what you know now, if I'd known how hard it was going to be to start my business, I would never have done it. But if I'd known how well it turned out, I would've started sooner. And so your thoughts, advice, encouragement to a young entrepreneur or to a new business owner, let's say Not even young.
Mark Miller (45:28):
I think first you really need to determine if that's your life, because a lot of people say, I'm an entrepreneur and I want to try this. But I think it was Martin Luther King that said, faith is really taking the first step and not knowing where the rest of the staircase is. And to me, that is the driver. When people ask me, how did you do this and stuff, I said, you have to take the first step off the curb. But I think they have to understand that it is not easy and you have to have a fierce commitment to faith, whatever that means to you in God, in your relationship with your wife in many things. But faith always guided me, and it's not going to be an easy road. It rarely is. And sometimes it's very easy and then it all comes crashing down.
(46:17):
And for me it's faith. Faith has to sustain you. And when it's at, its darkest and it'll come, then you just have to remember why you're doing it and what the alternatives are, and that has to you get up the next morning and get back at it and begin again. And then I would also say, as soon as you can into the process, be open to counsel. So find the right people, attorney, accountant, bookkeeper, because all those things when you can afford 'em, keep you from moving forward because you want to try to do it all and you rarely can.
Scott Eckart (46:57):
You talk about getting your financial house in order. I have a concept called systematic value extraction, which you did quite well. How does a young entrepreneur do that? Because they're thinking they put everything back in the business, they're going to worry about that later. Why is that not a good idea?
Mark Miller (47:12):
Well, number one, it was kind of like we talked earlier. We're a promise, nothing but the moment. And the sooner you learn that, I think your outlook on life changes. So you have to take whatever that is in your line of work, even if it's small amount, get it invested, get it working for you. The sooner you can just put those things in practice and they grow as the company grows. So fortunately, I made some great decisions. One of 'em was like I think five years into the business. I bought my own building, built my own building and decided to own that.
Scott Eckart (47:49):
That was a risk, though.
Mark Miller (47:50):
It was a risk, but it was one of the best things I ever did. What it set me up for that was long ago, paid for, and it's reoccurring revenue, and it was reoccurring because the business was paying the rent for many years. Now it's somebody else paying it, but it was a sideline income stream. So that helped me. I got with a financial planner very early and just said, let's dream. What do I need to do? And that was awakening because your head's down, you're just trying to get sales, you're just trying to keep moving the business. But I think that was fortunate for me or fortuitous because it allowed me to say, what's it take to really get here and then get some good mentors? There's so many people out there. People want to help people. It's hard to believe in the world.
Scott Eckart (48:35):
No, but they really do. But they do. But if you don't ask for it, they're not going to come barging in your door. But man, people want to help.
Mark Miller (48:43):
I used to even tell my salespeople that people want to help you, so find them and let 'em help you.
Scott Eckart (48:48):
My rule is anybody who bothers to call and set up an appointment, I will give them my time. I don't care if it's Cutco knives or whatever, but I will meet with them because they took the initiative to do it.
Mark Miller (48:59):
Finding people out and about that are active and seeking something, it's very fulfilling. Yeah,
Scott Eckart (49:05):
They're out there and it's fun to hear their story and where they're headed, and we're like, Hey, give me a call. And every now and again they do. And it's exciting. Yeah, it's fun. Here are my three main things from today's episode with Mark Miller. It's Courage Talk emerge. Number one, if you're a business owner and you're thinking about leaving, have the courage to answer the call. If you make the decision, stick with a decision doesn't help anybody, your team or advisors around you if you're waffling on what to do. Number two, talk to your team about your decision. Get their input. Let them know about the timing, but most importantly, how it will affect them. And lastly, emerge. Once you make the decision, let your leaders emerge into their new position. If you're still in the room, it's going to be really hard for them to emerge into the new leadership position and just don't hang around too long. So remember, courage Talk emerge. Head to the show notes of this episode to connect with Mark Miller and Cornerstone Environmental Services. And remember, the future is bright. I'll see you next time.
Scott Eckart (50:25):
Thank you for listening today. If you like what you've heard, please join us in the Velocity Network and sign up@www.velocoaches.com, which is a gathering of entrepreneurs, business owners, and people who desire to learn more about running and owning a business. Also, you can subscribe to future proof on Spotify, apple, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.