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Album 4 Track 16 - Staying Balanced & Patient On The Journey w/Ed Collins
We have a friend in the virtual building today! Ed Collins, Marketing & Advertising Professional, shares his vast experience from his time working with some of the biggest named advertising companies, as a professor at Chapman University, and his current role as Partner and President of Amusement Park.
An episode you don't want to miss, from start to finish. Filled with insight and knowledge to learn from, buckle up as well chat about staying balanced and patient on the journey.
Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: What's happening? Back for another podcast of Brands, Beats and Bytes. We have various in sundry guests on our show as you know, sometimes we have exquisite marketing experience from people who happen to be family. And we got family on today's podcast. This is straight up family.
We've been in the fox hole together. We've done many things together. LT. Well, you let the peoples know who we have with us in the virtual building today.
LT: Well, we've been, we've been really excited about lining this one up. So DC, we have Ed Collins in the house today. Welcome Ed.
Ed Collins: Thank you guys. It's a pleasure to be here and good to see your pretty faces again.
DC: AKA brother Ed.
LT: That's right. That's right, right. So, alright, D this is gonna be extra fun for the reason you just stated.
DC: Let's do it.
LT: That's right. And, and, and as you already say, we, uh, affectionately, uh, within our sphere, call Ed, Brother Ed, to have him on the podcast today.
Mm-hmm so let's go through his amazing chops. So as a SoCal native from the age of four, when his family moved from New York to California, Ed did his undergrad work at Cal Poly earning a bachelor's science in business, and is the first person in his family to earn a college degree, which is really cool.
It actually later earns his master's in communications from Cal State Fulton. So outta college, Ed embarks upon a career in advertising, working for big agencies in the automotive space where there are large budgets, lots of action, and D I would also say the, from a brand and product standpoint that we always talk about the difference between brand and products, the automotive space is so ripe with great examples of that.
Don't you think?
DC: Absolutely.
LT: So I, I think it's such a great place to cut your chop. So it is. Ed who is really good at what he does. And over 15 years in total earns, ever increasing roles and responsibilities. So I'm gonna quickly go through it. So his first job out of college is with FCB Global, which is Foote Cone Belding, where he is account manager on the Mazda account. And then he goes on to Chiat Day where he is the account supervisor on the Nissan. Then he moves up to be a VP of Manager of Field Operations at Hill Holiday on infinity. So this is the, what happens, especially when one gets really great in the automotive space. You tend to keep going up and up and you move agencies because the accounts move from, uh, from different places.
Mm-hmm so this is what's gonna happen here. So a great opportunity opens up to be VP Managing Director at DDB, which is Doyle Dan Burnbach, on the Volkswagen account. And for those Mad Men fans out there, or fans of advertising in general, DDB and VW were truly one of the best ad agency, client tandems of all time.
But guess what? As I mentioned, the way this business works, sometimes you keep the client, but you move agencies. So this is what happened to Ed. Ed stays on VW, but VW moves to Berlin Cameron, and he's the VP Director of Regional Marketing for VW at Berlin Cameron. So in continuing Ed's climb, he is tapped on the shoulder by Y and R Young and Rubican to be SVP on Lincoln Mercury dealer account. And he does such A fabulous job there. He gets a huge promo to be the EVP on the entire Mercury automotive account at Y&R. So alright, D so we're in the early 2000 at two thousands. And Ed makes a really strategic move to jump off the automotive treadmill and he joins what was then AOL Time Warner to lead their west coast operations as the Managing Director of West Coast sales, BizDev and account management. And with his stewardship, they become the strongest region, the most profitable region in the network. Mm-hmm . So after five successful years there, Ed is watching where the world is heading and he leaves Time to be the CMO and new biz director at DGWB Advertising. While still at D G w D w I got that's a mouthful edge BG.
That is yeah. DW Ed also joins the Art Institute of California, which is really cool in orange county as a, and they are a design media arts fashion, and culinary college, where he starts teaching courses such as copywriting, advertising, campaign sales and persuasion and market research. So ed really jumps into in the professorial role there D isn't that cool?
DC: Mm-hmm .
LT: So now it's 2010 and ed leverages his great automotive and media roots, and he joins national cable communications, better known as NCC, which is the holding company, bringing together all the large regional cable companies at the time, such as Comcast, Cox, into one easy place for advertisers to buy where he becomes the Director of Automotive Marketing and BizDev.
At the same time, Ed is really enjoying teaching marketing and advertising to college students, and he gets an opportunity to join the number four film school in the country, Chapman University's Dodge College of Film and Media Arts, where he teaches courses such as ad campaigns, principal of advertising and producing commercials.
And he is still doing that to this day. In 2015, Ed leaves, NCC and becomes an incredibly important player as strategic marketing leader and planner for a few great businesses, including Amusement Park, Inc, where he works with previous excellent guest and ad legend, Jimmy Smith, Slingshot People working with another great colleague who we love, Mike Weisman, shout out to Mike and also that's right. Higher ground consultancy with the fantastic Egypt McKee was another shout to. So D the Harlem Globetrotters was a mutual client for all of us. Mm-hmm . And we had the great opportunity to work really closely with Ed on this special brand. And that's what you were saying, being in the foxhole.
So that's really where we got to know Ed before we get to the end, we have to say something personal, DC, Jeff, and I started to work with ed during the pandemic, and he lives in SoCal. We have spent many an hour on. Zoom in the phone, and he has become a true friend for all of us. Mm-hmm he is a person with truly great integrity.
And if Ed Collins tells you he's going to do something, consider it done. You can't say that about too many people, right, D?
DC: Mm-hmm. Absolutely Larry.
LT: And lastly, before we close the intro, gotta give Ed's family a shout out here too, starting with this wonderful wife, Beth, daughters, Allie, McKenna, Kate and dog, Meg.
Also, there's a mixed marriage in the family with Ally, a Cal grad, married to son-in-law Joe who earned his MBA from right here at Stanford, the Stanford Graduate School of Business. So given our Stanford association, we wanted to shout that one out too. So on summation Brand Nerds, sit back and enjoy. This is going to be fun. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Ed Collins.
Ed Collins: Wow. Thank you very much. Gosh, it's like my obituary. I love it.
DC: Oh, no, no, no. This celebration brother, celebration.
Ed Collins: It's a celebration.
LT: And you're still building, you're still going, dude. Going strong.
Ed Collins: On the a I know I hear you say 15 years. I'm like, well, yeah, part of it 15 years, I've been, I've been rolling since 1986. So, um, what a, what a fantastic industry that we all work in and mm-hmm, , there's so much change going on and just so much energy in it. It's it's really, every day is different and there's so many different aspects of, of it. Um, it's been fun to get into media and get into consulting and working with a variety of different kinds of clients. So it really has been so far. Hopefully I have a lot left, but it's been a, it's been a fun ride for sure.
LT: That was 15 years in automotive. Just to point out.
Ed Collins: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Interesting thing with automotive, as you're alluding to automotive is awesome because you have giant budgets and you're pulling every lever possible to get to your consumer and do your thing. Um, and then you get a little bit further down the road. You don't have those giant budgets. Now you have to be more creative. That's the big challenge for all is being creative in an environment where maybe your budget constrained. And so not just great creative messaging, but mechanisms and distribution and all the things that go with it. So it takes a tremendous amount of creativity.
DC: So, uh, Brother Ed, um, Larry is gifted at giving our guests their flowers from what they've accomplished. And there are few things that I have become, um, accustomed to seeing and feeling when Larry does this. One is the person who is in your seat, on as a guest on our podcast, you already know what you've done, but hearing it articulated through Larry, I see surprise in the eyes of the guests themselves, as I did in you, as Larry outlines, uh, what, what you've done in your career.
So Larry likes to say, well, I'm only talking about what you've actually done. So that's what, that's one thing. And the second is that I feel, um, In some cases surprised because oftentimes in, in this case, this is certainly what's what's happening. I know you Brother Ed mm-hmm, your, your, your family to me and to us. And even I am like, oh wow, Ed did this. And Ed did that. It's just a beautiful way to start the, uh, start the podcast. And I'm Larry, uh, kudos to you and Brother Ed, you got a hell of a track record, brother. You got a hell of a track record
LT: and I get uncomfortable cuz it's nothing. It's not, it really isn't me. This is not false humility. It's really what Ed has done. So. Yep.
Ed Collins: Yeah. I appreciate that. You know, you're right though. It's it's great. I mean, through your professional journey, there's a lot of life journey in there. Yes. That we've got our time together. I'm happy to share some of the stories behind the journey because there's, there's a story everywhere. And I like this. We'll talk a little bit about it too. I am teaching at Chapman University and I love working with young people that are moving into the industry. Yeah. Kind of exchanging knowledge from an experience standpoint to say, look, this is what it's like. Yeah. So I'm hoping that partly that's what I'm contributing to here is that people will hear this and kind of understand everyone's got a personal journey. There's a story. And it's, it's always interesting for sure.
DC: So Brother Ed, you talking about students and this podcast and what you're doing, uh, being a vehicle for some students to, to listen to and understand the difference between where they are now, which is academia, and then going into the, uh, the real work. Is actually where I'd like to go with, get comfy, but I've got two get comfy.
So I know Larry, I typically only have one. We only do one, but I'm gonna give two today. So to, to the fact that you're a, you're a, you're a professor, your job is to pour knowledge into your students. I'd like to reverse that. You've now taught hundreds, maybe thousands of different students. What have you Brother Ed learned from your students that you have now applied into the work world?
Ed Collins: Wow. What a great question. What a great question. Pretty smart. That's a great question. And it it's, I have to give that thought because there's a lot of it. And so I always set up my classes, mind you, I'm an adjunct. So I I'm in the industry and I, I teach so I'm at night. So I get, I get people from 7:00 AM to almost 10:00 PM.
So it's, it's in the evening and it's kind of a long run, right? So I, nobody wants to listen to anybody speak for three hours. It's just too much. I don't wanna hear myself talk for three hours and I don't try to teach that way. So I always set up a course right at the beginning saying, and I give, I give a lot of, um, um, grade point credit for participation and okay.
So I, I have that environment and the way I set up the very first class is in this course, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. My goal is to share knowledge with you. Mm-hmm, as important for you to share knowledge with each other. And for me to gain knowledge from you, good, you set it up that way and it really is true.
And I have to tell you coming out of COVID, I didn't teach during COVID because there was a lot of change at the university. Actually, there was change in leadership there and just in the, in the protocol of teaching, it was on zoom and they just kind of shut it down for a while. Um, not, they didn't shut down the school, but, um, I, I didn't have a course and I struggled through COVID.
I mean, I struggled with being isolated and being alone. Mm-hmm I really missed interfacing with these students. Mm. I really did. And so I think one of the things I really learned from them is the importance for me to draw from their energy and their optimism. Mm. Either think about a 21 year old, 22 year old, young adults who think, and maybe know they're gonna change the world.
And I like that, that, that's what I try to take. And I try to be really open. I have, I have daughters that are 23 to. And I really try to treat them as adults. I try to treat, treat my students as adults and I ask a lot of questions. What do you think about this? What do you think about that in the changing world?
What's your perspective on this? So that's the biggest thing that I think I have learned is if I sit in a corner in an office and just sort of bake on what I think, I know mm-hmm, , I'm missing out and I'm, I'm, I'm gonna become that old guy on the porch. You know, I don't wanna do that. So that's the thing for me, is drawing from their energy and learning from them.
What does this mean? What do you think? What does that look like? Um, and I learn a lot every single day, not just in class, but from my colleagues and my daughters, my daughter's boyfriends, husbands. Um, I really enjoy that. I think it's important.
LT: That's great.
DC: That's phenomenal, Ed. Larry, anything to add to this? I've got a couple points to actually one point and then I want to ask another. What's Popping. All right.
LT: You got the mic.
DC: Ed, I've said on this podcast on more than one occasions early in my career, I was impressed by people who had great answers. As I matured. I began to become more impressed with people who had great questions. Mm-hmm and you starting off your day one course with questions that you are going to be asking them. Phenomenal. Second what's, uh, a get comfy question. You are a 15 year automotive vet at many different companies. Now here, this brand comes along after you audit automobile business called Tesla in the EV space as a. Auto industry vet and a marketing vet. What are your thoughts about Tesla and what they've been able to do to build their brands? Not necessarily using the traditional marketing vehicles to do so?
Ed Collins: Well, another really good question. And I, I would actually turn that back around and say, well, what have you seen that they're doing to market the brand? I don't really see very much. Mm-hmm . Now what I have seen is I've seen like, uh, there's a place near us called fashion island, which is an outdoor shopping mall. Super upscale, Newport beach.
DC: Beautiful.
Ed Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. They have a showroom there, like a retail showroom. Mm-hmm and they have 'em in a couple different locations.
Excuse me, where people can come in and actually in a, in a no pressure environment, come in and check out the car. Kinda like a dealership, but like a retail store version of that, sit in the car, take a look at it. The guy will walk me through it. Um, I, I have to be honest. DC,, I don't, I don't really recall seeing much advertising at all.
What I see is what's going on in the news. What I see is the valuation of the company. What I see is they came out early and hardcore committed to electrification. Mm-hmm I am seeing a shift in who's driving the product. And I think that has a big part of the brand appeal. Like when you see successful people or people you deem successful with a certain brand, with a certain product and in a certain car, like, oh, okay, something's happening here, here in Southern California, we have seen a significant shift and this is good and bad.
We have seen, we have said, you know, the BMW drivers are now the Tesla drivers. Mm-hmm mm-hmm and, and BMW drivers can be perceived as kind of a holes. Yeah, aggressive, successful and get out of my way. And you know, I'm a badass and all that stuff. We're, I'm seeing that with Tesla. Mm-hmm, there a lot of 'em on the road here.
Um, there's a lot of aggressive driving. Um, so I, I have a certain perception of the brand personally. I, I don't think I'd get into it. It's it's not my, it's not my jam. Mm-hmm one of my business colleagues. He's all about Tesla. Couple of 'em. Yeah. Yeah, because of what it represents. Now we are having conversations with companies like Ford Motor Company and some of the other automotive brands. Now it is all about electrification. Mm-hmm, , it's all about that. So, um, I don't, I don't know if I'm answering your question. I, I need to compare and contrast what I see with Ford and Chrysler, not Chrysler, General Motors. Um, some of the brands like that is there's heavy advertising, heavy brand advertising about this shift.
Mm-hmm . What it feels like to me is they're a little late to the party, Tesla's been in that lane. Mm-hmm for a long time. Um, certainly, um, you know, the leader of that organization, we all know is in the news all the time and yeah, very successful, not only in this, but a visionary and Space X and, and other things.
So, um, I don't know if I answered that question, but it's, uh, I think it's a very interesting brand. I, I guess at the end of the day, from a marketing standpoint, if you can get the kind of momentum they've gotten with minimal marketing investment behind it, you're doing a great job.
DC: Well, Brother Ed, uh, I've got a couple things on this in terms of marketing, their whole plan comes down to four letters and the four letters are E L O N, Elon.
Yeah, he is the marketing of the brand. So that's number one. Number two is innovation and our business, you know this at Larry, Jeff, and, Jade, Hailey, and, uh, LaShaunna. And I, we have, uh, an area of our branding, our proprietary branding approach that has an analog where we use analogs to help our clients build out their positioning.
So for, for instance, State Farm, don't think of us as an insurance company, think of us as a neighbor, that's an analog approach. And what, uh, Tesla is, is innovation. And they're like an, a iPad with wheels. iPad with wheels. I know yeah. About technology, but finally I'll say this is, they have transformed the dealer, um, a new car dealer, uh, network and perception.
And that CarMax originally said, this is the price it's on the car. There's no haggle. This is the price. But these were pre-owned vehicles that had never happened with new vehicles. And with Tesla. The price is the price you're not going in and negotiate. So those are the things that, uh, I find different contrasted to typical, uh, auto industry.
But with that, uh, Brother Ed, you are about to bear witness to a first ever in, uh, in Brands, Beats, & Bytes history. We've never had a quote unquote ad or a partner or a sponsor, but we are, we have one now. And Larry is going to bless us with here is our first ad. Now I know Brand Nerds. You might be going and ad yeah.
Brand Nerds. We we're growing up. Now. We, we, we gotta have some ads in here. You listen to other podcasts, you get some ads, you can get an ad in here, but Larry's gonna make it entertaining. So Larry, who is our first, the inaugural sponsor of the Brands, Beats, & Bytes podcast.
LT: Oh D, that's a great, uh, intro.
So the company is Specificity mm-hmm . And as you alluded to, this is our first ad and we are really excited about it, especially since, and this is really important for you to hear Brand Nerds. We can vouch for this advertiser first hand. So Brand Nerds, if you want to optimize your digital marketing to maximize results, we have the solution for you.
Last November. An interesting thing happened that forever changed the landscape of digital marketing. Apple's iOS update was structured to provide users the opportunity to opt out of ads and more than 90% of users opted. The Android devices quickly followed suit with similar numbers on the optout.
So this situation created complete upheaval for the entire digital marketing infrastructure with engagement rates, following precipitously. Now, you know why you may live in a downtown San Francisco high rise or D in your case, Midtown, Atlanta, condo, and you're all of a sudden getting digital ads for lawn.
That's just simply money down the drain. So with this issue, here's where Specificity comes into save the day. Specificity does not track or know user's personal data, such as name, social security number, et cetera. Specificity uses device ID numbers, similar to a VIN number on a car. So they track what users are doing without knowing their personal identifiable information.
So their system works wonderfully post privacy update. This enables consumers to see ads that are relevant to them and advertisers to serve ads to people that are actually receptive to the message. Let's give a real life example. If our friends at Beyond Meat wanted to use specificity, they can serve ads to consumers who are vegans, vegetarians, and or those who may be interested in a meat alternative without wasting any of their precious ad spend on the significant group out there that are carnivores without any interest in trying a meat alternative.
Like my wife, Sherry, who wants no part of it. So this would enable Beyond Meat to be incredibly efficient and only taking their message to only those who care and doing it in a way that totally respects consumers privacy, since they do not know any personal information. The bottom line is in 2022, we believe no one else out there can deliver better digital marketing results than Specificity.
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That's S P E C I F I C I T Y I N C .com. Their website is also in our show notes. If you want to improve your digital marketing results, go check them out.
Ed Collins: I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that. Fantastic.
DC: Well done, Larry. Well done. So Brand Nerds, our commitment to you. One, when we do have advertisers or sponsors, it, it is our intent to bring things to you all that you can use. Yep. Uh, so that you can be better marketers. And then, uh, number two, full disclosure, Specificity. They're also family. We liked him over there. Uh, Jason's a, a, a very funny guy and, and a genius. He's the, he's the CEO over there. All right, Larry, where we going next brother.
LT: Five questions, baby. It's on you!
DC: Five questions. Five questions. All Ed, we got this segment called five questions. I asked one, Larry asked a question. We go back and forth until we reach five I'm at the plate. Brother Ed, given your curious mind. What was the first experience you had with a brand that touched you emotionally, you got so into this brand that you were not aware of time or space. You were just into this brand. Not because anyone was saying, Hey, Ed, good, I'm glad you liked this brand purely because you had a love of the brand. A bit like your first love. This for you, brother ed was what?
Ed Collins: Well, that has to go way back, right? If it's your first.
DC: Yes.
Ed Collins: It's your first memory of the love for a brand? Um, I've always been very much into sports. I've played sports as a kid growing up. And to me, the, like the visuality of your equipment, of your cleats, of the kind of glove you had the brand of bat that you had all mattered. Mm-hmm the numeral on your Jersey mattered. It had a personality to, it still does to me in a weird way. Yep. The first brand for me was Puma.
DC: Ah, Puma, Puma.
Ed Collins: And I remember, and I still feel this way. I have a number of Puma shoes now. I just love the design on the side of that shoe, coming to the back, coming together to the ball on the heel mm-hmm kind of reminds me of the Minnesota Vikings helmet, which I think cool wanted to puma Puma for me, when I was 10 years old was the brand. It made a statement of you as an athlete and further I remember. So this was like the early seventies. I remember when Nike first appeared to me in the early seventies, I was probably 10. And my reaction to that was that's a Puma knockoff. Yeah, that's, that's an upside down Puma Stripe. What the, ah, I really literally thought, man. I didn't of course, I didn't know the brand at that point.
It wasn't really the brand yet. And I remember the quality of it was low cuz they were first just coming out into cleats and I thought, nah, man, Puma's it. And these guys are not gonna make it. So Puma Puma's the brand for me.
LT: Oh, I love that. so, so D I got a couple things for Ed here, so, okay. Brand Nerds, we're all the same age. So we, we have a lot of, not only do we have things in common, we have that in common. And so, so for me also Puma and growing up in New York, really, everybody talks about Jordan had the first signature shoe. There were Puma Clydes and from what I understand, it was only in New York did they sell 'em as Puma Clydes but I grew up Puma Clydes. And Walt Frazier was, is still, in my opinion, one of the coolest people that's ever walked the face of the earth. So he wore Puma and Joe Namath wore Puma. So for, for a New York kid. And if you remember, we had a previous guest Ed, who's a friend of mine grow up, my friend, Bruce Lefkowitz, who's played basketball. Penn is in the, in the, in the University of Pennsylvania Hall of Fame for basketball. And Bruce brought up Joe Namath as brute. Do you remember that? Oh, that's right. Yes. Yeah, for sure. And, and, and I'm bringing that up because there's such connected tissue when you're around that age. And if you're an athlete, it's something you never forget that you hold near and dear to you.
And so I can relate in so many ways. I love that Ed, so cool.
Ed Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. It's very powerful. You're right. No question. Yep.
DC: I'll tell you something that I've never heard before, Larry, but of course, we're gonna hear this from Brother Ed. That the Nike logo is an upside down Puma. I mean, I I've never once thought that, but now that he says it that's exactly what that thing is.
LT: It is. I never thought of it that way either. That's so see that a 10 years old was to
Ed Collins: my 10 year old brain. Yeah. At least that's what it was, but you
LT: were ahead, like, that's, that's so cool that you, that you actually thought of that, like, that, that came into your head.
DC: That, that that's that's that's kinda wild. Okay. Yeah. Uh, Larry,
LT: Okay, Ed. So who is haters having the most influence on your career?
Ed Collins: Wow. Um, well, well, when I look back, there's lots of different, really super talented people that I've worked with. But by the way, influence can be good and bad. Right. But oh yeah,
DC: Absolutely. Both ways.
Ed Collins: But, um, I'm gonna say the biggest influence on me was probably in the middle of my career. And it's Andy Berlin.
DC: Ah, yeah.
Ed Collins: Name Andy Berlin. Yes. Yes. So Andy was the founder, one of the founders of Goodby Berlin Silverstein, which is now Goodby, Silverstein, and Partners. Um, he was the president of DDB in New York. Mm-hmm . And from there he founded Berlin, right. Cameron, which is now Berlin Cameron. Um, I think it's Berlin Cameron United.
And I worked for both of those agencies, but Andy there there's story. This is, this has got story behind this one. Andy is about six, five. He's a big old dude. Mm-hmm and he's a dude, he's an alpha dude. Mm-hmm and, and he's a creative, you know, and he worked for Hal Riney and he did all kinds of did a lot of voiceover work.
So when you meet him, he's very intimidating. And he was the president of the New York office for DDB, when I was in the LA office for DDB, I worked for a guy named Dave Park and it was great. You're right. LT. You're talking about Volkswagen and DDB. It was awesome. In fact, I always go back to the Volkswagen work and bring it up in my classes as the best work ever produced in a lot of ways.
Right. Some of that.
LT: Yeah. And just one quick interjection it. Um, I was a client when I was at Chivas Regal with of DDB. Oh. And we literally, our office was a block and a half away. And we had our old bosses, my old boss on the show, uh, who, who Rob Warren as a guest. And we talked about that, but when you walked into the offices of DDB in New York, you saw all these bold Volkswagens ads.
And it just was like, every time I walked in and, and we used to meet there all the time, cause they literally were a block and half walk. It, there was such a feeling of, oh my God, like specialness, you knew it was really special.
Ed Collins: Yeah, for sure. Um, So the story on this is I was running the Western region for the agency for Volkswagen, and I had a really good relationship, which look, I've worked with clients almost all of my career.
It's one of the things that I do. I enjoyed doing it. It's not easy, but I developed good relationships. I hope based on some of the things you were talking about earlier, I try to be honest. I try to have integrity. I, I have difficult conversations when they're necessary, but I treat clients with respect.
Um, but I, I not always great at,
LT: I'm gonna say you're great at it.
Ed Collins: Well, that's great.
LT: I'm going to say that.
Ed Collins: I appreciate that. It's it's um, they're tough jobs, you know, it's yes. I kind of describe an account person, like, uh, like an umpire in a baseball game. You don't really know they're there until something goes wrong, so true.
LT: Yeah. Yeah.
Ed Collins: But a good account person does a lot of things off the record on the record in big meetings behind the scenes over dinner. So I had a really good relationship with my client in the west. Really good relationship. I still do actually it's many, many years later, great guy named Don Hughes. Well, we kinda learned these things in hindsight and over time, like how an account is going away, how you are starting to lose an account.
You start to see the signs after a while. And I think that was happening with DDB with Volkswagen and, mm. So there's trouble, there's trouble. And I, so I'm, I'm in the office in LA. Dave Park is the president of the LA office for DDB called me to his office one day. And he said, dude, you got a problem. And I said, well, what do you mean?
He said, Andy Berlin wants to kill you. Literally is what he I'm like, what are you talking about? Andy Berlin, how does he even know me? Yeah. And he said, he's, he's got a real problem with you because he feels that you are, he doesn't know which side of the bread is being buttered for you. Oh, meaning I was in line with my client to the detriment of the agency, which was not true. While I'm sitting in Dave Park's office, Andy Berlin calls.
Okay.
And, and Dave's like, no, no, Andy, I, I don't think that's accurate. No, I don't think ed would do that. No, no, I, and you, he is holding the phone away from his ear and, and then he finally hangs up and said, man, you got a problem. Andy wants to talk to you on the phone. 10 o'clock on Saturday. Cool. So I have a young baby at the, at this point, right. I'm relatively newly married, you know, I'm early in my career. So now Saturday morning rolls around and I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm I gotta call Andy Berlin on the phone. Yep. So I, I call him and I told Beth, um, I, I very well could lose my job today, but, but I'm gonna tell the truth here. And he's gonna know exactly what has happened and what hasn't happened, if there's a mistake.
So I pick up the phone, I call him and I, "Ed, you're not gonna be fired. It's first thing he says, I'm not gonna fire you." So all the air went outta my balloon, like, okay, thank you. Yeah. And then he went on to, you need to understand, okay, well, that's not what happened, but I understand what you're saying. We're cool.
So that was my like introduction on a personal level to Andy.
DC: Mm-hmm
Ed Collins: and then it evolved or devolved where we were losing the account. Mm-hmm Andy was rolling out of, uh, out of the agency, starting Berlin at that point to retain the business mm-hmm . And so it was assigned to them. My client gets promoted to becomes a national retail client and he's moving to Detroit.
So these guys are flying around on a private jet to meet key dealers around the country to get their endorsement for the new agency. And while they're doing that, Andy talked to Don and said, listen, Don, we want your support on this. So you're a key player. He said, well, you'll have my support, but only if somebody is in the face-off position with me that I trust and the only person I trust in your organization is that, so next thing I know, um, Andy's partner, Tony Wright, flies out to LA asks for a meeting with me and promotes me to run the retail business for Volkswagen for the, for the agency.
So their new agency, right. New agency, that's where, that's where I stayed on. But you know, it's, like I said, there's a story behind everything. It wasn't like, Hey man, new account. No, it was very tumultuous, but we moved to Detroit, did that for a couple years, but I really got to know Andy and he's a very impressive guy.
He's just a big, like I said, big burly. He's in charge. You know, we were in New York quite a bit. I was based in New York where the client was, but the agency was in New York. Um, and I spent a lot of time there and got to know him and I really respect him. He's an entrepreneur. He's a leader. He's dynamic.
He cares about creative, uh, and an interesting side story with him. He bought Ray Kroc's yacht, Ray Kroc, the founder of, oh my God, I gotta love a guy like that. And then he also, so this is one thing I learned from him too. And I think if I'm answer your question, it's key to me. And, and I was young at this point, but with an ad agency's per view of the marketplace, it's kinda a 30,000 foot view of the market.
And he saw a hole in the market and he created a brand and it was an alcohol brand and it was very specifically targeted. So he created the brand, he created all the distribution, all the business operations around it, promoted the brand and wound up selling that company. Oh wow. And I thought, wow, that's really smart.
And it's kind of thing that we are, we've been doing a lot over the last several years, you know, creating our own brands. Creating our own opportunities where we're not just work for hire in this industry. So...
LT: What was the brand Ed, if you don't mind me asking.
Ed Collins: Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna, okay.
I'm not gonna reveal that for okay.
LT: That's fine.
Ed Collins: Reasons, but yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think Andy, Andy had a lot of influence on me and I think even at the time, I didn't, I didn't really realize it, but, um, it, it's the idea of being an entrepreneur of being strong, being a leader, having vision and being a risk taker.
Um, all those things kind of wrapped into one package is, is really impressive to me.
LT: Super cool.
DC: I've got a connection before we go to the next question with Berlin Cameron, we, uh, I was running advertising at the time at Coca-Cola and we gave, uh, them two of our baby brands, which they, they knocked it outta the park, Mellow Yellow and Mr. Pib.
Ed Collins: Mm-hmm.
DC: They, they did such a great job on those two brands. They ended up getting the big dog, coca-Cola.
Ed Collins: Mm-hmm yeah. That's that's awesome. You work Ewen and Cameron?
DC: Ewen Cameron that's correct. Yep.
Ed Collins: Smart guy. Very smart guy.
DC: All right. You've had many successes over the course of your career. This next question, we are not interested in knowing about any of them, this is what are your, what do you consider to be in your career as you look at the pantheon of your career, your biggest F up the singular biggest F up, and what did you learn from it?
Ed Collins: There was probably a lot of those, um, I'm trying to think of two different messages I can deliver here, but here's considering who may be listening to this down the road. I'm I'm gonna go with this one. Mm-hmm um, so as, as alluded to this industry is nomadic and it's weird. I, I don't like this about it, but sometimes to advance and to be promoted, to make more money, you have to leave an agency and go somewhere else.
Mm-hmm I never really understood that, but that's kind of the way it's been. And that was my mindset. I was always trying to, you know, continue moving north continu to provide well for my family, those kinds of things. There was, there was a job that I had somewhere in the middle of this, and I was in my mid thirties and I had a, I had elevated to a very senior position, had a great job.
But I wanted, I wanted to run things. I mean, that's in my DNA is to either have my own company or to run a company. It's what I wanted to do since I was young. Mm-hmm in my mid thirties. Um, I didn't see the path to that at this company. Mm-hmm, had a guy that was a couple years older than me that came from one of the sister organizations came in to run it, who was outstanding, outstanding.
And I looked at my near and midterm future and I thought, man, there's no path for me here. Mm-hmm I, I left the agency and I did something else. Now that was credited as, hey, that was a strategic move. No, well, maybe not. It was, it was really, I look back and it was impatience, perhaps a lack of vision, mm-hmm um, and then of course, not very long after that, that guy left the agency and went somewhere else.
So the pathway opened up anyway. But I, I, my message would be careers, if, you know, God willing, we live long enough and, and we do what we think we can do. Careers are really long mm-hmm and sometimes we get impatient and we think, God, I've been here for a year. I've been here for three years and patience is really important if you are, if you're doing well, you're getting paid fairly, you're challenged.
You're, you're proud of your work. And as somebody once said to me, if the five people that you come across in your daily work, you like, you're in pretty good shape. Yeah. Pretty good perspective. But, um, that was it for me. I got off of a, a pretty good track because I was impatient. Wanted to make more money and, and have different experiences that probably, I'm not saying I'm regretful of that. I, I don't really regret anything I've done, but I probably in the context of effing up, I probably probably did.
LT: So you'd, you'd hit the, if you had a do over, you wouldn't have left that's the bottom line.
Ed Collins: Well, if I had, if I had seen what was coming, um, I probably would've told myself to hold tight and just, uh, just be patient.
LT: So, D I have to enter something here. I'm not, I haven't talked about this on the, on any of our a hundred plus podcasts and it's so perfect and profound that it's with Ed. My biggest F up in my career is leaving Coca-Cola when I left. Cause I was impatient too. And you've was like,
DC: You've never shared that, Larry.
LT: Nope. And I was like, um, I'm gonna be really blunt. I was say around the same age, Ed, which is really interesting mid thirties, doing really well, had just kicked butt on Powerade. They gave me another really plum assignment to work, to manage the Olympics, which was coming to Atlanta. And I was like, you know what? I am not the I D we related as I'm not a, a license plate person. That's what we, we, a lot of us affectionately call the people of Coke who had the Coca-Cola license plate in the front. Yeah. Because their whole identity was wrapped up. I'm not a license plate person. And I also saw that the people who were really rising up at Coca-Cola were not necessarily the best people, but they were the, the most politically operative. DC, he went around that in typical DC fashion, they couldn't help, but move him up because of the incredible things that he did at Sprite. But really most of the people who rose up were not the, the best and the brightest. DC's a huge exception to that. And so I'm glad you brought that up and I'm sorry, I'm talking this much. This is really important for the brand nerds who are younger to learn that sometimes, especially when you're at that age where you're like, ah, I should be doing more. I should be running things. I wanna be entrepreneurial. Sometimes the best moves are the moves that you don't make. Right?
Ed Collins: Yeah, that's right. That's, that's really true. And by the way, and, and things change that's right change. And this is a, it's a difficult thing to balance because we work in a very, very impatient industry. Mm-hmm, , it's very causal. I'm putting money in. I want the results now that's the environment you're caught out in that.
Yeah. You do. You live in that environment. Like clients have expectations I'm investing in and I wanna return. And that's your mindset, it's your composition. And then you, you kind of get to that same place, man. I'm working my butt off and I want to get rewarded like, okay, well the last promotion cycle pass me by. Well, I'm outta here. Yep. And it's, it's just, it's looking at the long view and actually the way that I, I try to advise, especially young people when they're asking for career advice is try to get five years ahead. Mm-hmm five years ahead. Not 10, cuz that's too far out. Not a year is too short, five years.
And be as specific as you can. In the ad agency, world, what agency do you wanna work for? What city do you wanna live in? What title do you want to have? What clients do you wanna work on? How much money do you wanna make as specifically as you possibly can and then decisions that you make along the way are informed by a little bit of that north star.
Right? So making a bunch of money. If that's my goal is to make a bunch of money and I have a chance to work on a better brand in a parallel move, not a good move. If my goal is to make money. Conversely, if I wanna move in, I'm gonna live in Berlin and I have a chance to work for a local agency. They don't have a Berlin office.
Mm-hmm , that doesn't make sense. Right? So it just informs you. And I think if you have that longer view of things, you're not so reactive to specific conditions at any given time.
DC: What fabulous advice, what fabulous advice by the way, Ed and Brand Nerds. If you see the film, you'll see that Larry just got up. Larry has a new puppy, new lab, puppy. Her name is Josie. Uh, uh, Larry also has a, uh, what I would call an incumbent, beautiful be beautiful dog. His name is Bo. I affectionately call him the Bo Meister. And let me just say this Bo ain't down for the puppies. Okay. Larry is having to like, kinda make certain that things are okay.
LT: That's right.
DC: On the Western front. That's exactly right. All right. Uh, powerful advice, Ed. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing that. Larry. Any comments on that? I wanna hit the next one.
LT: No, uh, my comments were, were put out there already, so let's go to the next one. So Ed, this is technology and marketing.
So, um, when we've all seen the rise of tech and the importance that now plays with us marketers. So can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech versus areas that they should be leery?
Ed Collins: Wow. Um, Uh, this is a, this is a big issue question. So I don't wanna get too tactical in my answer.
Um, let me, let me step back. Maybe go a little higher. Um, the world has changed as we all know. So dramatically, really in the last few years, several years, but agreed the, the power of the cell phone has changed everything. I mean, it is changed the entirety of marketing and how we go about it. True. I remember going back to the back in the day, the Allison Fisher purchase funnel, you know, you go through this sequence, the, the purchase process is sequential.
You start with awareness and familiarity and then consideration and then trial and then purchase, right. You go through, but the way you would advertise is, mass media to generate awareness, and then you go more specific and maybe down to direct marketing and things like that. Um, but it's, it's not like that anymore.
And the way I've been really pushing this in the last couple courses I've had, I had a capstone class last semester where students are literally graduating. It's the recap of their four years of studying advertising and public relations. And now I have a, it's actually a producing commercials course that I'm teaching.
But before I ever got into what are we gonna actually produce? I'm speaking strategically and kind of theoretically about what's happening in the world. And, and it comes down to this advertising must now be synchronous, not asynchronous. Mm. Synchronous is, it was one way communication where we would put an ad out.
We are the sender of the message. The receiver would receive it, and that would do their thing. That doesn't work. It actually has been disadvantageous for brands to actually do that. And I go back to the cell phone. So here's the technology thing. If we are just putting messaging out there and we have not, we're not using any data.
And back to the ad that you had there LT. If we're not using data to identify people who may be predisposed to receive this message, it not only is wasted money. It's actually, it's detrimental because if somebody's not interested in it and they're trying to avoid your message and somehow you figured out how to get to them, it pisses 'em off.
Right? And now I have a negative view of the brand, right? So what we've gotta get to is in, uh, synchronous approach, which is, I said it correctly, the sequencing synchronous is two way communication. And it, it, the sync part of it means at the same time. So it's not just putting a, a message out there and somewhere someone picks it up.
It's engagement in what I would consider to be. Conversation. And that's a lot of what we've been doing. Those are things like entertainment. They're things like music, they're things like gaming, they're things like NFTs they're things that invite people into an experience that they find enriching and they appreciate it.
They not only receive the message, but they participate in it. And I'll give you an example. What I just saw yesterday, there is an NFT that was put out there. This is a guy who's doing a podcast and he was talking about Disney branding, how they've done it over the years. And now how Disney branding could change with this NFT.
And there's a company that's actually doing it, but they put this NFT out. It is a storytelling company. They put out these, these little episodes, like one to two minutes out, put it onto social media in the right places. But the NFT is an invitation to actually participate in the authorship of the story.
Which I had not heard before. And I thought, when we're talking about utility of NFTs, it's not just a ticket to a thing, but it's actually participating in the creation of the thing. And, and so that's where we're going. I think technology needs to be understood and it needs to be leveraged, but we need to be informed.
We need to really have a good strategy and understand what the heck are we trying to accomplish instead of just powering our way through putting bulk media out there. And well, if you know, if you hear it great, and if you don't fine, we're gonna have some waste, but that waste now has become, you know, a harpoon to your heart as a brand, Ooh.
LT: Harpoon to your heart. Mmm.
Ed Collins: So
LT: That's, that's I have to tell you, this is why we had Ed on like, this is why. That Brand Nerds That was some jew-els as D would say. I mean that, that, and what I love about Ed's mind is he's so strategic, but yet also gets when, when he needs to gets down into it. And I really would take heed for what he said.
The other part I would add to, uh, what Ed put out there is from a 50,000 foot level. I think of. Probably, and we all can relate this to this, you know, pre-Iphone, I'm not even gonna say cell phone, it's pre iPhone mm-hmm mm-hmm the device that most people were most connected to was either their TV or their PC mm-hmm right.
Or their, or their, their Mac mm-hmm . So when the iPhone came out, now the device that certainly all young people are, and even, uh, us who are, uh, more longer in the tooth, everything pivots around your smartphone. So just having that 50,000 foot view again, we can all, we all have kids, we can all relate. I laugh at our son, Jake, he'll be watching YouTube on his phone.
I'm like, dude, why don't you watch it on the big screen he's watching like, you know, a basketball game or something. He's like, nah, I'm good. That's no, no, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. I don't get it. But, but it's, I'm making, I'm telling that story because he is so, and he, and, and everyone, his age, right. Is that that iPhone is everything pivots around it, which is so different than pre-phone
Ed Collins: Larry. One of the, one of the things we talk about in the consulting group that we work with is that it takes 21 days, and this is behavioral science that proves us out. It takes 21 days to, um, create a behavior for a habit 21 days. Right. What's happened. What you just described is Jake has, uh, he's has a habit.
His habit now is consumption on the phone. Yeah. That's the way he does it. It's fine. So he's sort of reduced his real estate and not only is he fine with it, he prefers it.
LT: Yeah, no question.
Ed Collins: So that's, that's what we've gotta recognize. What we grew up with the bigger, the screen, the more real estate, of course, man, I'm watching a football game, but right.
That's not how younger people are consuming. Right. Content. And they, they prefer it on these small screens. So, so we can step back and say, well, that doesn't make sense. Or we can step back and say, that's what's happening. Okay. What do we do about it? Exactly.
DC: Yeah. I, I imagine for the manufacturers of, uh, consumer electronics, like large screen TVs, let's take Samsung for example, I, I bet they talk about often bigger is better where in fact the market coming up.
Nope. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Final question Brother Ed, what are you most proud of?
Ed Collins: Is that, is that directed specifically to professional environment or just general question?
DC: It is directed to any place you want to take. Right. Then that's then
that's an easy answer for me. Um, I am most proud of my family. Straight up. Not, I'm not hitting the button saying, oh gosh, it's, I'm very proud of my, my daughters, my wife. Um, so I, I just give you a little context of that. Um, I never had any sons. I have three daughters mm-hmm and I wanted to raise my girls to be kind, good citizens, all the positive things that you hopefully raise them to be mm-hmm . Um, but I also wanted them to be strong and independent mm-hmm and I'm very blessed to have strong, independent, kind daughters. And that's my crew. That's my, I mean, you guys are my good friends. I love y'all. I really do. Um, my circle is small by design and it, the core of that circle is my family and my girls. I love hanging out with 'em and I think they like hanging out with me, but I'm most proud that Beth and I have raised, um, good humans that are contributors to society and people that people like and love.
And I know you guys are dads too, and I know you would say the same exact thing as your answer.
LT: I love it. D I would've been shocked if Ed Collins said anything else. No one has, like, I know other than what he just said
DC: As would I, as would I. As the father of three daughters, Dito brother.
Ed Collins: Dito, brother. Yep.
DC: Dito. All right. That ends the, the five questions we are now going to the next segment, Larry. Yeah. What is that segment brother?
LT: Oh man. This is what's popping? What's popping, D?
DC: What's popping?
LT: And this is a chance to shout out, shout down a simply air, something happening and around marking today. We think's good fodder for discussion.
So DC, you wanna lead the proceedings or shall I?
DC: Uh, brother. Why don't you do it? And, and Ed, I don't know if you know this or not. Larry and I don't know what the others what's popping is we just kinda go at it. So, Larry, uh, if you would do the honors first and then let's go to Brother Ed, second on your what's popping after we respond to yours and then I'll pull up the rear if time allows.
LT: Okay. That's perfect. All right. So my what's popping. I thought this would be great for the three of us involves something that, uh, we've talked about. I've talked to each of you about in different ways. So, uh, we all like sports a lot as Ed alluded to and often use sports metaphors that really correlate to the business world.
And the one I would like to explore involves different views of the world and how they manifest themselves in both sports and business and how this view of the world permeates everything. So I'm gonna use what happened to me recently at Chipotle as the impetus for discussing the larger topic. So ed and Brad nerds, Jake's getting a lot of run today.
Having been around our, uh, Ed and Brand Nerds, Jeff and DC have been around our 19 year old son, Jake, a lot. And those who know Jake know that if he could he'd have Chipotle for lunch and dinner every day he would, if it wasn't for money and proximity.
Okay. So at the same time I have to confess my wife, Sherry, and I enjoy Chipotle too. So that's how it started. So Jake's back at school right now. And the other night I was jonesin' for a burrito. So, uh, I go to Chipotle and I'm in line ordering my chicken burrito. And I was thinking, man, I must have tons of Chipotle reward points, important sidebar, not too long ago.
The Chipotle app provided reminder of letting you know, when you had earned enough points for a free burrito. I realize, Hmm. I haven't gotten any reminder in a long time and I open the app and start searching around to see if I have anything. I see. I can get a free, soft drink for 400 points, free chips and guac for 500, I think to myself, I wonder how many total points I have because this kid eats and we do a lot of Chipotle.
So I start digging further and I stress it. Wasn't very easy to find, but I finally find, and I have more than 8,000 points, so, okay. I'm thinking cool. I must have enough for free burrito, but do I? It doesn't say so now I'm at the cashier about to pay and there are people behind me. I don't want them to wait.
And now I'm thinking I must have the requisite points for free burrito. I asked the cashier to help we're both looking at the app and sure enough, it was 1400 points to get the free burrito. I say to her, great. What do I need to do since it really wasn't obvious how to redeem it. She said, you need to put your thumb on this circle and hold it down for like five seconds.
I kid you not. And it will then come up. Finally. It did, but again, not intuitive, not easy. And the line's growing. I get the free burrito. I had plenty of points for the free chips and Coke, but I don't wanna have the people behind me waving more and walk outta there with a free, free burrito. And I am officially pissed off and we know that that should not be, I should be walking out with a smile like it used to when it was easy when they sent me the reminder.
So here's the meta point. I mentioned at the outset of the story. There are sports teams who come from the aggressive, offensive approach dictate the flow of a game. Think Bill Walsh's Niners, NBA, coach Mike Dantoni at, with the Phoenix Sons earlier in, in the century who went with, uh, uh, take a shot with seven seconds or less.
And of course my beloved current Golden State Warriors who always seek to push the pace. Conversely, there are teams like the Baltimore Ravens of the early two thousands or the early Tim Duncan, Greg Popovich iteration of the Spurs, not the later ones with Tony Parker and Manu who focus on smothering the other team with great defense and limiting their own mistakes.
I will stress that both of these strategies have proven to work. But the translation to business is we at Brand Positioning Doctors believe all companies have a certain primary view of the world. One is an aggressive, offensive oriented, and here's the key brand building approach. Like my current Warriors, where a company readily gets, you need to do whatever it takes to build the brand.
And it usually involves spending money to make money versus the Raven's defensive primary approach, where the financial folks are clearly in charge with cost cutting as the mantra where they watch every nickel. Look, Walmart has famously taken this approach and it's worked for them. I say that to point, I say that in their space.
Who has a better brand though, Walmart or Target? We all know Target has a better, better brand, even though Walmart's been very successful to complete my point by circling back to Chipotle, it seems like they are now in the Ravens/Papovich camp and from a brand building place, there are unintended consequences such as consumers leaving the restaurant after earning a free burrito, not being happy and talking about it on a marketing podcast.
Your thoughts?
DC: Brother Ed?
Ed Collins: My only thought is mic drop. Dang. And you want me to follow that?
DC: What, what, what do you think about his, his point here is what's popping?
Ed Collins: I think it's really interesting. And I think that, um, I think you're right. I think brands need, look, look, let me back up. And this will lead into my, my answer to that question.
Brands need to really understand what their values are. Yep. They just need to, they need to really be clear on that. I remember, you know, we were talking with our company years ago, we sat down for four months and arm wrestled exactly the language and exactly the values that we wanted to live as we do.
Right. So that's a really important thing. So yeah, I think if you're on offense or if you're on defense, um, that should be driven by again, your north star. What are you trying to do? What are you trying to be? And I think there are too many brands, I'm not saying they did this, but you're reacting to the marketplace to. Market conditions to competitive activity and sometimes you lose sight on treating your customer as the greatest gift you ever had because without your customers, you get trouble.
LT: Yep.
DC: Larry fabulous. What's popping. You know, I like to talk about things at a human level. So let me take what you have described as Chipolte's reward program.
LT: You gotta give, well, you gotta give everybody a little piece of that. Why you said it that way.
DC: What's my man's name.
LT: Sebastian Maniscalco.
DC: Yeah. Okay. Sebastian man, I pronounce his last name. I'm
Ed Collins: I knows exactly what you're talking about.
DC: I'm sorry. We did this, this brother says, SBE says it's Chipolte.
Love that. Love that. Here's the human thing of it. What, what Chipotle is doing with their points is, I believe brother ed and Larry it's intended to reward loyal customers. Right? I, I believe that's the underlying intent, right? Let's take this to human. My eldest daughter's name is Hailey. Hailey is also listening on this podcast.
What you experienced would be me saying Hailey, Hey Hailey, if you do your chores and get your homework done, um, I am going to give you whatever the thing is. Let let's say it's a, it's a computer. I'm gonna give you a computer. Hailey says great. So she does her chores. She does her thing. And then when it's time for the computer, although in your case is almost like not even telling her she could get that, cuz you didn't even know what the points are for.
Right. But let's just for the moment, go with a Chipotle customer who knows they're accumulating the points. Right? All right. You didn't, that's an issue this any do so Hailey knows what's going on. And now when it comes time for. For me to give Hailey her reward. I say, well, you know, uh, sweetie, before I give you this computer, I need you to run down to the community pool, clean it.
Then I need, I need you to Jo, over to help help another family member with their groceries. I need to do all these things. And then after you do that, we'll wait a little while longer and then I'll get you the computer like you test,
LT: and you can only get the computers over there. You can't get the Mac that you really want.
DC: You, you, you can't get the Mac.
Ed Collins: So here, here, here's the strategic misplay I think. And, and we should be cognizant as a parent or as a brand. There's, there's a slight difference in there. You talk about the Hailey example. As a parent, what you're trying to do, you're trying to get to the same result. You're trying to get a certain behavior.
Yes. Seeking, but there's two ways to it. One is the reward. Yes. And the other is what I would consider to be buying your business or buying the action that I'm seeking. And it's way more valuable in teaching your kids a lesson on how to behave. Yes. When it's truly a reward. Yes. And I'm, I actually am respecting you and said, you did a great job.
Here you go. Yes. As opposed to, well, if you buy 12 of these, you get the 13th free. Yeah. Which is not viewed as a, as a valuable, uh, result for a consumer. That's a good point. It's like a sales ad, you know, it's like a, like discounting it. And I think there's a real difference in that. And we know those brands you go to target, it's easy to return things.
You go to Nordstrom, they take care of you. I, I had three year old shoes that I returned. To Nordstrom one time, $300 shoes. Like yeah, no problem here. There's a new pair that that's Nordstrom's yeah. Nortrom like are so that's extreme, but that you're rewarded and appreciated as a human being. And that's the difference to me.
LT: And again, just to put a bow on it and then I'm gonna toss it to Ed. The point is, that's why I think that the, the, the example works with sports. It's your view of the world, right? It's the vision that you have and if you're coming at it like, Hey, man, these are really valuable. If I'm Chipotle, these are really valuable customers.
I want them to earn the free burrito. Right. They've earned it. Let's make it easy, right? Yes. And then everybody's happy that makes me happy versus, oh man, look at all these people where they're we got all these people who are earning free reward. Oh, that's a lot of money it's gonna cost us. Yes. Well, what can we do to make it harder for them?
So it's so we can keep that. That's what it feels like. And that's not cool as a brand. It's just not,
Ed Collins: no agreed. It's what I said earlier about pissing people off. When you find them with an ad, it's the same thing. Now you're here, you're here talking on a podcast about a bad experience killer. Yep.
LT: And they earned it. All right, ed. You're you're what's popping.
Ed Collins: Well, I don't have, I don't have that kind of depth in my answer,
LT: but that's no, it's sometimes our what's popping is we saw this great ad yesterday. Here's what it is. What do you think?
Ed Collins: Yeah. Well, here's the thing for me. Um, one of, one of the examples that I use again with either young professionals or students, uh, we talk a lot about values, driven activity, values, driven companies and brands.
And one of the examples that I use and you gotta be careful cause they're like almost over the top with it is Patagonia. Mm-hmm . And what I read today coming outta yesterday is Patagonia's founder gave away ownership of his $3 billion company. I read that too. Oh, wow. He's dedicating all profits to projects and organizations that will protect the environment.
Okay. He called, he calls it reimagining capitalism. Okay. Put the money into the Patagonia Purpose Trust what they called it and hold fast collective. So he's put all this he's he's just given it away. And I was talking to somebody this morning about it, and I said, there's a difference if you're that kind of wealthy, there's a difference, and we all should do this. Right. There's a difference that given away percentage of your income, cuz you should, because of tax benefits, whatever I give 10% of 3 billion away. That's one thing when you give it all away. Yeah. When you give 90% of it away, you are really leaning in on your values. And I just, to me, this thing is a major story.
On somebody that showed not that anyone's gonna do anything like this, but the thinking behind it, I'm not just talking the talk. We need to fix the world here. We need to fix the earth. He's been talking about it, that company's been talking about. That brand has been telling you don't buy my product, cuz there's a, a bit of a carbon footprint behind it.
Right. Which is amazing in itself. Right. But now I think they just have gone all in on it. So the point in all of this is purpose driven kinds of brands, purpose driven kinds of people, um, are really that's the way to do it. And it goes back to what I said about your five year plan. We all have to step back and say, who do we wanna be?
How do we want to act? How do we wanna be perceived, be committed to that. And then that kind of leads you into, okay. What kind of brands do I wanna represent and work with now? We all talk about that. It's it's harder to say no. Then it is to say yes, when somebody offers you some kind of an opportunity.
And if it doesn't work, because if it may be a values based thing, or maybe it's a business based thing, I'm gonna say no to that opportunity. Um, but anyway, I thought the Patagonia thing to me, by the way I LT, I also have Dodgers. I thought you were gonna go there. Dodgers just about a brand. That's doing it right. Nine outta 10 years division champs.
DC: Oh, oh my God. Throw my
Ed Collins: back out. Retired today. Roger Feder announced his retirement today.
DC: Oh, he did well. Oh, oh, did he? Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.
LT: I didn't either.
Ed Collins: Yep. So you're talking about like premier, like the theme. There is premier brands, whether they're people, teams, or companies that are doing it right.
In a lot of ways that, um, they're in the news today and they're popping.
LT: D what do you have, do you have any thoughts on Patagonia? Very quickly
DC: Quoting my brother, Steven Green. Capitalism is the second best financial structure to the one that has yet to be created. Mm-hmm I think that's profound.
Profound. Yep. So capitalism isn't perfect. It's got some issues, some major issues. It's also got some advantages, but we don't know what the one that's we don't know the system. That's gonna replace it yet. Let me go to Patagonia. I say kudos to the founder and the lead of that company. Caveat while he is alive.
He has been the head of Patagonia since it's founding, I believe so. In terms of like economic, financial things that he may need, he's got them. He's probably got trust, set up. Not only are his children fine. If he has children, his children's children's children are probably all fine. If, if he has it set up that way.
And I don't know that, but he has that as an option either he could do that or not. It's his decision. What I wonder, brother, ed and Larry is as he sunsets and the next generation of leaders are left to take Patagonia even higher. Are they going to be motivated primarily or exclusively about the arrangement that he is now put the company in or are, or are folks gonna say, well, I kinda like that.
Be nice if it would be 60 or 70% of what we do, but maybe not a hundred. So I just, I just wonder 10, 15, 20 years from now the talent attracted to the brand in terms of its ability to make money. Right. Cause the reason why he can do that now is because it's making money. If it only becomes altruism and the money's not made, I don't know that it's gonna really matter that much.
So that's my response, Larry.
LT: Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. D I will say this though, from a consumer standpoint and ed, we always talk about this in, uh, our first guest, Jeff, Cotrill literally had a chair in the room where, for the consumer. So I'm always thinking about what the consumer's thinking.
If I'm a Patagonia brand lover, This just solidifies for me, why I'm a BR brand lover, right. That connection, great point been stronger. So I think that that's a really cool thing to Ed's point, you know, you're, you're living what you're, uh, your credo, uh, what you said you're do, you're gonna do, you're actually doing so I think that that's a, that's a super cool thing.
And I, but D you raise a great question. I've been, uh, very interested. There's a new, there's a documentary on Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward mm-hmm on their relationship and think about, there's not a couple who are movie stars in their own. Right. And then collectively, and you think now it just news, just again recently, Newman's Newman's Own the brand that he built, which is all the proceeds go to go to, uh, uh, to great organizations.
His, a couple of his daughters are suing that organization saying that they're misusing funds and whatnot. So D, there's a real life example of, of, of the potential issues that could come out of something that is very good.
DC: Down the road. Yeah. Oh, that's good point. Another person I worked for and then I'll give my, uh, what's popping.
His name is Chris Low. So he was my boss and he had a question that he would posit. Speaking of questions earlier, Ed to each of us from time to time. And, and the question was this, what unintended consequences might your great solution have to that your great solution today have for tomorrow, he would ask that question.
So that's, that's what I would say there now. Here's my what's popping the NBA. Great brand. Great product. Yesterday. The owner of the Phoenix suns, his name was Robert Sarver. His, he was adjudicated because there was an investigation that, that happen, on some inappropriate language and behavior as it relates to women and minorities.
LT: More than some.
DC: Yeah. More than some, yes. Many.
Ed Collins: 20 years worth.
DC: Yes. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So the, the, the adjudication comes down. He is suspended from all basketball operations for a year. So now his wife is going to be running the team allegedly, and he's fined 10 million. And with this, you have had folks come forward who have previously been in the organization and say, that's a hand slap. LeBron James, the king has said, there's no place for this in our sport. He's upset about what's happened about the lightness of the, uh, adjudication. And then also, uh, Chris Paul, who is a Phoenix Sun point guard and future Hall of Famer, uh, and also president of the, uh, of the players association. He too has said, this is, this can't be in our sport.
So all of these folks have said this. Now let me go to just some of what is in the report. I'm not gonna be long on this, but I'm just gonna do a couple of things in here that the brother has said the first is about, then this is in the report, now the use of the N word. Okay. Here is what it says. After an October 30th, 2016 game against your Golden State Warriors Larry, complained that a black player on the warriors was able to say the N-word without receiving a technical.
In other words,
LT: supposedly it Draymond Green by the way.
DC: Oh, was it Draymond Green? Okay.
Technical file. Draymond Green. I didn't, it'll go. Dayday. The technical foul. So for those of you who are not basketball fans, that's when the ref stops play says D and then the other team gets a shot because the technical file has been, uh, assessed.
Okay. So Sarver used the word when he went into the coach's office to vent about the non call. So Savers upset that Dayday has said the N word, but didn't get teed up. That that's a, a, a short phrase for technical file. Okay. So the coach told Sarver, he could not say the word now. Okay. This is the coach saying, it it a black coach saying you can't say that word, owner, the owner then sent an email to the league office.
So after a black coach says to him, you can't say the N word, the owner sent then sent an email to the league office, complaining about the officiating Sarver purported to quote the warriors player by saying the N word spelled out with an a at the end, with the, at the end per the investigation. All right.
So this is one thing. Now let's go to, uh, uh, his, his comments about women. So here's, here's one about the women. All right. Now. Okay. This is, this is one where I, I. I couldn't believe it until I actually read it. So let me just find this right here. Hold on a second, guys. I know I'm taking a little time here.
All right.
LT: It's alright.
DC: All right. Here we go. In 2008 Sarver told a, this is in the report now, told a pregnant employee. She could not continue her role coordinating an event because in quotes, she would be breastfeeding. And her in quotes, baby needs their mom, not their father. Okay. The woman cried in response. And when a witness told Sarver he did not act correctly.
The owner convened the call with the witness and his attorney. Sarver's attorney said he had done nothing wrong, he being Sarver, and Sarver criticized the witness for in quotes, questioning Sarver's judgment. All right. So here's my what's popping guys. The NBA is roughly 75% Black and, uh, Sarver one of their owners using N-word.
The NBA is I think the, at the foremost of sports, in terms of diversity, I think they were the first to have women referees. They now have women coaches, shout Popovich for hiring, um, like one of the first female coaches, uh, on, on his staff. I mean, the NBA has been progressive, I would say, of, of the major sports.
Thank you.
Ed Collins: Thank .You, Adam Silver. By the way.
DC: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's right. Adam silver. Yes. Shout Adam Silver. Um, and, uh, and we, we know the guys over at the NBA. They're good people like Mark Tatum, the deputy, uh, of the, uh, of the, of the NBA, uh, deputy commissioner. He's a good dude. He's a good dude. Now they kicked Donald Sterling out.
Okay. They took cuz people are calling for, to take the Suns uh, franchise and uh, Adam Silver, the commissioner, thank you for that ed and said, I can't take the dude's tea, but he's under, he's under close watch. I wonder what something like this does to the NBA brand. Forget the Phoenix Suns as a team mm-hmm but the NBA brand, not only in the minds of the fans, but the players, the players themselves. Do, what do they think of their brand as it relates to how this has been handled.
So that's why what's popping gentlemen.
Ed Collins: Well, there's a lot in that bag. Um, , here's the thing I like about the NBA though. I, I, to answer the somewhat rhetorical question that you put out there, I don't think it does hurt the NBA brand because it's, it's a very strongly evolving brand where the players have, uh, consumed much of the power. I don't look at the NBA brand as a bunch of, you know, 75 year old, white male owners that that's, that's moving away.
That's yeah. That's the way it was. And it's not the way it's, it's changing now. Yeah. With some of the owners that will be coming in, led by people like LeBron, potentially. Yeah. Yeah. Or even if you look even outside of the NBA, you look at Angel City Football Club for women's, um, pro soccer league. It's a consortium of women and minorities and lot celebrities, lots of different people coming in. So I think there's an awareness of this mm-hmm um, I don't think it does. I think it's probably a good thing. It's my answer because it exposes this racism and by the way, that dude was told, several times you can't do this and he kept doing it, like what's wrong.
DC: That's right.
Ed Collins: Well, that's a, that's a thing too. If you make a mistake and you don't know. Okay. You should know, but if you don't know and you're told you need to respond to that. Yeah. And that's, that's Donald Sterling again. Um, but I, I don't know about taking the franchise away. I mean, Adam Silver says he can't, there's gotta be some yeah.
Reason for that, but that dude he's at least on his way out that kind of thinking there's no place for it. Yeah. And I love the fact that the, that the players in the NBA in particular, they become empowered and they're kind dictating the way this thing's gonna go. So I like that.
LT: So, so D I'm really into this story for, because I'm a huge NBA fan, as you know.
And, um, and I, I do see a lot of these owners, um, owners have so much to do with the team's brand and ultimate success. And we had it here with the Warriors, our, our, the owner before lake up and company was, was the worst owner along with, uh, with Sterling Dolan and Sterling and oh yeah. Dolan in New York and Sterling and the Clippers.
And then lake up, comes in and look with the worries. It's not an accident. So the owner really matters and Sarver's, Sarver's just a Bo man. The dude's a joke. He has been a joke for a long time and let's just call it as we see it. Amin Elhassan, who's been on ESPN. Who's now in, uh, Dan Le Batard's network and Amin worked for the Sons from oh six to 12.
And I was very, I listened to a podcast. I was literally this morning when I was walking Bo with what Amin was talking about. And he said, That he knew, because this was based off Baxter Holmes on ESPN did a big expose a year ago about this. And so then the NBA, the NBA's credit now they then did, they got law firms involved.
And this report came out that was done by a law firm and pretty much backed everything that Baxter Holmes had, plus some things. Mm-hmm mm-hmm . And so unlike the NFL, who does things behind closed doors, this was actually transparent in that sense. Um, but Amin Elhassan said he knew that unless they had an audio or video, unless they had a smoking gun, there was no way the NBA would be able to take the team.
And Adam Silver, if you really looked, a lot of people said it was not his best performance, because if you really know Adam Silver, this is others talking like Amin Elhassan and Howard Beck. Who's a long term NBA reporter. They think Adam would love to take the team away from him, but he can't because remember the commissioner works for the owners you don't.
And when Mark Cuban said, after the team took the, the, after the NBA took Donald Sterlings, uh, he said,
DC: Slippery Slope.
LT: Cuban was like, oh, let's, you know, remember, I, I don't, I think what he did was horrible, blah, blah, blah. But this sets a bad precedent. And I go back to that because I think that if Adam Silver had his druthers, he would've taken the team away.
DC: I agree,
LT: but he can't. And so my last point about this is now, look, this is ver, this story is just happening. This is, uh, this is really moving. It's very dynamic LeBron's weighed in, Chris Paul weighed in, and I've heard again, Amin Elhassan and Howard Beck say, if the players really rise up and say, yo, man, this dude needs to be out of the league.
Cuz Chris Paul could say, I'm not playing for this guy. That's right. I don't care that he's been suspended. And if other players say that and other players say, I'm not going to the Suns, they're gonna have to figure out a solution. And maybe it's a backroom solution where they go, yo man, you need to sell the team.
DC: Yep.
Ed Collins: Let me, let me make one more point. This could have been the entire podcast, by the way. Here's, here's a very important aspect of this thing, too. This is in the news. There's gonna be some action and we're on the next headline. That's dangerous. Yeah. The only way that these kinds of deep rooted problems change is through communication and education.
Yep. I think, and so last week in my class, um, I, I did a compare and contrast good advertising, bad advertising. And we talked about why each of those might be classified that way. One of the ads I brought up was from one of the guys that we all love, Jimmy Smith, and it was a Nike freestyle ad. But to give that I, I gave it was, I gave context. That was in 2001. I gave context that what was going on in the NBA. And there was a lot of racism going on at that time. Yes. And things about clothing. And, and even after that ad came out, that commissioner put a rule in there. No baggy jeans, no chains, no hats, had to wear suit. Right. So those are racist acts as far as I'm concerned.
Yes. The way that I'm trying to address these things, bring it to the classroom. Mm-hmm and, and it's an advertising class, through advertising. Talk about the context of what was happening so that you're educated that this is unacceptable. And let's talk about why and love it. So I do think that's important as we take these things and we talk in our families, we talk to our kids, we talk to each other, talk to our colleagues, understand why you can't say that if it's not obvious to you to have a discussion, have a discussion with a Black man or a Black woman, and understand why that's so offensive and what that means.
Right. And then maybe you're like, If you're desensitized so that you become more sensitive and it never comes outta your mouth, I guess.
LT: Yep.
DC: Yeah. I'll quickly say this and then we'll go to the show close. I like you Larry believe that this has elevated the NBA brand, but I think it has, in some ways, put a nick on the brand called old white male billionaire.
LT: Yep.
DC: That brand has taken a slight nick. Good. Because this dude seems to be tone deaf. Yep. And he's representative of a rather small community. And so I also believe that what's happening with Adam Silver and LeBron James and Chris Paul, is it, it could be coordinated, not just for what's happening now, but as a signal for future.
If you billionaires think you can do and say this shit. You can't. Not here. Okay. You can't do it here. So I, I love, I love this. I don't love the behavior, but I love the response. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
LT: And D to close the point. That's a lot of people think other owners, that's why I brought up Cuban or quake in their boots because they got some shit in their closet.
DC: Oh, they do. And, and that's why I think the slippery slope comment came. And by the way, I read somewhere that, uh, that in order for a, uh, owner, by the way, they call 'em governors now for governor to lose their team, 3/4 of the other governors have to vote for that to happen.
LT: Right.
DC: Yeah.
LT: And that's why Adam silver works for them.
And the feeling was, if he could do it, he would pull it away. But that three fourths thing ain't happening. He's not, he's not gonna get three fours.
No, no.
What a Ed... this has been so much, it was fun, man, but it's like, we were just chopping it up. What we want. Ed, you were amazing, dude. This was amazing.
My
Ed Collins: favorite part of the day talking to you guys. You kidding me?
LT: Oh, this is awesome. So we we're gonna go, uh, we're gonna go to the show, close Ed, where we, uh, we posit our learnings, uh, D, do you want go first or shall I?
DC: Would you mind going first? My brother.
LT: I do not mind. I, I have, uh, five plus a bonus because of our, our, uh, wonderful partner, Jeff. I have to have the odd numbers as we know.
DC: So yeah, I have Jeff, Jeff come off of, uh, mute and going to the screen to start hollering. That's right.
LT: So my first one is like, Ed has done as a professor. For those of you in leadership positions, or when you get to leadership positions, you should be learning as much from the people you lead as they learn from you. So that's number one. Number two, like Puma did with Ed. If you connect your brand with young consumers, At that really ripe pre-teen age, it's gonna stay with them forever.
Mm-hmm , that's two. Three as Ed suggested, and I love this one, set your goals in what you want to be doing five years out and then plan accordingly. I think Ed's totally right. Anything longer or sooner, uh, can, can get a little dicey. Number four, sometimes the best move you make are the ones that you don't make.
Mm-hmm that Ed's told his story. And I told mine. And number five, as a marketer, you better be developing and crafting two-way conversations that Ed alluded to. And then the bonus one is very simple. Family, family, family. Those are mine.
DC: My man, Brother Ed, you, you know the drill here, you, you may have listened to a couple of our podcasts where I attempt to understand at a, at a level of depth, the person with whom Larry and I are are co-hosting. You were a little different because I, I know you, I know you really well. Uh you're you are a friend. And so I didn't know how this was going to go, uh, with you in terms of my, uh, connection and, uh, understanding more about the, uh, the core of who you are and what singularly makes you special.
And I think I've arrived at something here that I didn't know until this podcast. Let's go through this,
LT: Watch this, watch this now. Be care. Be ready. Watch it.
DC: Right. Larry. One: you gave an example of. An experience with Andy Berlin when you were at DDB and working on the VW business. And he wanted to know if you had gone, what I describe as native, have you gone native with the client and you don't know, like on which side your bread is being buttered, I think was where'd you use?
So there was what that indicated to me is that there was a balance for you between client and agency. Most people just picked one and no one ever asked or question what side you're on. And you, even though you were on the side of the agency, you had the president of the entire agency wondering what side you were on.
Second, you gave the example of you being in your thirties and you wanted to run something and you moved too fast. You were ambitious, but what you learned was to be patient. So you have ambition and, and, and patience running there. Third, you talked about Puma and your love for Puma. And when you saw Nike, you saw the, an upside down, the swoosh was actually an upside down Puma thing.
Now you are, you have been on the client side for most of your career, but it takes a creative to be able to see that kind of thing. So you had client and creative going at the same time. In your classes, you've talked about with your students, you said, Hey, listen, you believe marketing is both. Um, you have to be a synchronous or asynchronous.
Is it synchronous or asynchronous? Is these two things running in parallel? Next one, your five year example. You said, think about these things in five years and you had four things, agency, city where you wanna live, title, and then money. So four things, two and two, you gotta through all of your examples.
You had about four or five things that were in twos on either side. And one thing that was in four, two and two. Finally, brother, Larry, Jeff, and I talk about in our business of building left brain and right brain marketers. Those that are both analytical and creative, you may be the most balanced marketer that I've ever met.
Ed, like you, you are nearly perfectly balanced. So I say all of this to say, Brother Ed, my moniker for you. If you will accept it. Is you are the marketing Libra, you are the scale of the two of the analytical and creative of the client and the agency. And also you are both a professor and a practitioner.
You are still, students are not just those that are in the world of academia. Your students are your coworkers, your students are your clients. And also your students are your family members, your daughters, because you have this other otherworldly otherworldly ability to balance. So brother Ed marketing Libra.
That's what I've learned from you today.
Ed Collins: Well, I gotta tell you guys, I love you guys. You guys are phenomenal. I it's really, I do. I appreciate that more than I can articulate, and I really do love all you guys. It's, uh, it's a real honor for me, in whatever capacity we can to be able to work with you, to call you friends, to call you brothers.
So I appreciate this opportunity and it was a lot of fun and, um, I hope people get to listen to it. And at the end of the day, I hope people learn something from all of us and that we keep learning from each other. And from some of those that are out there who we don't know that they're listening. So thanks for the opportunity guys.
DC: My man,
LT: I, I think that puts a bow on it. D what do you think?
DC: I, I think it does. I, I do have one question though. I'm certain, this is not the case, cuz this would just be wild. What is your Zodiac sign? It
Ed Collins: I'm a Sagittarius Sagittarius. Okay. Got it.
DC: If you to say the Libra out of faint it, but okay. Got it.
LT: Larry and anything else you wanna posit learnings wise from the wonderful conversation?
Ed Collins: No, it was awesome. I really do. It was fun. It was fun. I literally genuinely, you know, Larry, we talk all the time. I, I just, uh, these are the best parts of my day talking to you guys. I really, truly, so I, I just, let me say something for those that are listening to this group of folks that I have the privilege speaking with are, are some of, first of all, some of the best people I've ever met and you are very kind to give me flowers early on.
So if I can return those a little bit, you guys are honest, high integrity, high energy, uh, very caring, very creative, and just some of the smartest people I've ever met. And it's just, uh, it's been a good balance for us too, to work together. Yep. I hope we have a lot more opportunities and for sure, we will remain friends for as long as we have, uh, you know, the blessings beyond earth here.
So thank you for the opportunity.
LT: Love it and we're gonna work together again soon. We know it. It's it's awesome. Alright, boys. All right. That's the, we're going to the show close as Jade likes to tell me to give some space here. So here's the show close. So Brand Nerds. Thanks for listening to the Brands, Beats and Bytes recorded virtually on zoom and a production of KZSU Stanford, 90.1 FM radio worldwide at kzsu.org. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, myself, Larry Taman, Joseph Anderson, Jade Tate, Hailey Cobbin, and Tom Dioro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT:And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. And we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing with another great business leader as our guest.