Up Your Average

“You have to make difficult decisions to do things the right way.”

In this episode of Up Your Average, Keith and Doug interview Leah DeBaun who shares how her life choices—from living in a one-bedroom apartment with her parents to building a tiny house and eventually fostering and adopting a child—helped her expand her world and gain perspective.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
 ➡️ Why doing what is right is better than doing what is easy
 ➡️ How suffering can teach us more about God
 ➡️ The importance of emotion in life and decision making

What is Up Your Average?

Up Your Average is the “no nonsense” podcast made for interesting people who think differently. Learn to navigate your life with unconventional wisdom by tuning in to Keith Tyner and Doug Shrieve every week.

Leah:

Everything that could go wrong went wrong. And I was mad. I was so mad, and my world was so small, especially in that hospital room. I mean, everything that mattered to me was a problem. And so it just really felt like God was saying, I want you to feel what it feels like to almost not have this.

Leah:

Not in a mean way, but just in a way that I would maybe understand more of the gravity of it.

Host:

Welcome to the Up Your Average podcast, where Keith and Doug give no nonsense advice to level up your life. So buckle up and listen closely to up your average.

Keith:

Alright, Douglas. Here we are. Here we are. What do we what do we call this weekend in Carmel?

Doug:

Oh, this is Artemobilia. I think that's how you say it. And, one of my favorite car show stories belongs to my son, Warner. We were cruising somewhere in Noblesville, and Noblesville has this real cute little downtown square. And we're cruising through, heading home, and they were having a car show there.

Doug:

And at the time, I was driving a really sweet 1999 Chevy Suburban. You remember that one? Yeah. I do. I mean, it was sweet,

Keith:

but it was old. Yeah.

Doug:

And Warner says from the back seats, hey, dad. We should probably pull over and put the hood up. There's gonna

Keith:

be some people who wanna see this thing.

Doug:

And so Artsmobilier, if you're watching and you're within driving distance, it is worth the trip in my opinion, but I like cars. I like people. But it's a it's like a real high end car show. So it's like this stuff that you dreamt about as a little kid, Audi r eights and Lamborghinis and Ferraris and, you know, cash out your four zero one k type cars.

Keith:

So It'll be fun.

Doug:

Yeah. I'll be walking around at some point.

Keith:

Yeah. And then Bring a chair. Use our yard here at Gimbals. Sit on the Adirondacks. Make yourself at home and, have fun.

Keith:

We are fortunate today, Doug, to have my friend Leah DeBond with us. And Leah is cool. And so we have been working on the theme for a couple weeks now, and I think we're gonna go on for two or three weeks. But the idea is the smaller your world is, the bigger your problems are. And the bigger your world, the smaller your problems.

Keith:

And I brought a I brought a mirror because you can look in a mirror and just stare at yourself, and all of a sudden your problems expand. And so for me, it would have been 17 year old Keith, which I'm sure you would never believe this happened, looked in the mirror and noticed that these bangs were just working their way backwards. And that made me think that my world was coming to an end. Like, how could this happen to 17 year old me? And it never occurred to me that 64 year old Keith would just be average.

Keith:

Like, my hairstyle would be average at that point. But at that time, it made me think that was the world. And so that's part of what we've been doing here, Leah. And then the globe is the more you look at the globe rather than the mirror, then the bigger your world is because you can perceive things better than if you keep looking at the mirror. And so one of the places I found on here, it or not, Leah was familiar with it.

Keith:

You wanna tell them what country that was?

Leah:

Yeah. So Ghana. I have told you I have Ghana. Ghana. Burkina Faso.

Keith:

Burkina how many raise your hand out there. How many of you know Burkina Faso? Okunumataba.

Leah:

It's tiny. It's a little one.

Doug:

Okay. I don't know it. I mean, I I know it from Keith mentioning it a couple weeks

Leah:

ago. Capital city is Wagadagu.

Keith:

And or Kina Faso? Say that for

Leah:

Wagadagoo.

Keith:

Wagadagoo. You guys walk your dog, goo. You guys need to know that today. And the reason I bring that up and why you look at the globe is when I went to look at it, there's 23,000,000 people that live there. And I don't know how big that is other than imagining Indianapolis is roughly a million people.

Keith:

And so there's a place for Quino Fosso that's 23 times bigger than Indianapolis that I've never heard of, and the average person there lives on the equivalent of $2,800 year, which I can't even like their problems are so much bigger than mine. By just knowing it's on the planet, what I did is I expanded my world. And so you have I have watched you with great joy expand your world over the years, and I wanted to talk about that a little bit. But before that, we're kicking off a new thing here today. We're gonna give our guests a gift today.

Keith:

Oh, nice. Is Sup? This is world famous M. A. Hadley pig piggy bank.

Keith:

What do you think?

Leah:

I love it.

Doug:

Which is a cool pottery. Is that even the right thing to say?

Keith:

Yeah. I don't know. Is that are you allowed to put those words together?

Leah:

Cool and pottery.

Doug:

Oh, well, that's definitely the case. But, yeah, this this they may have, like, they they're down in Louisville, and they make this stuff handmade. And our friend Ken once owned the place. And, I mean, who owns a pottery? He did.

Doug:

But, anyway, we just we just love it. Next time you're in Louisville, you should drop down and say hi to them. Very They sponsor the show. Well, they really don't. But

Keith:

So we got Jack and Kyler. They're they're they're they're sought after here. We got a gift for them, and we've got Taylor here. And I'd say Taylor Long has been top 50 people ever in my circle. Like, he's just one of the coolest 50 people I've ever met.

Keith:

So it's kind of fun having him here live. But here's what I want to start out with today. The traps that we get into, the mind traps can make our world smaller. Right? And for some reason, when you guys got married, did you live in an apartment?

Keith:

What did you live in when you got married?

Leah:

When we got married, yes, we lived in a one bedroom apartment for a couple years.

Keith:

One bedroom, two years. Why would anybody ever do that?

Leah:

It's me. We moved in with my parents after that.

Keith:

Wow.

Leah:

It got even smaller.

Keith:

Okay. And then this is the part that makes you I don't know anybody else that does the next part. Talk talk to us about what happened when you live after you live with your parents.

Leah:

So we were living with my parents. They were generous enough to let us live there and and save for a down payment on a house, hopefully. We weren't really sure what we were gonna do, but they've always just had this open door policy, which is great. And one night, my we're sitting around the the kitchen table with my parents, and my dad goes, we should build a tiny house. And I was like, really?

Leah:

I think we should too. We've been watching the show and kind of like, you know, oh, this is how we would do it. This is how you would do it. And so we did. We built a tiny house on my parents' property on a trailer with the intention of building it as an investment and then selling it and using that money as a down payment on a home.

Leah:

And that's what we did.

Keith:

How big was the trailer?

Doug:

Like, they had dual axle or single axle?

Keith:

Dual axle. Yeah.

Leah:

The whole thing was 210 square feet including the lofted space.

Keith:

Two but you that are listening, 210 feet. 210 square feet. How long did you live there? Actually, six months. Yeah.

Keith:

Six months? Okay. That's a long time. I lived in some amount less than that in an RV for two weeks, and then it seemed like an eternity.

Leah:

So Yeah. And we had a cat and a dog.

Keith:

So Yeah. We almost didn't build it then. Really? The Canada border almost stopped us from building it. Oh, I remember that.

Keith:

Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keith:

You may not know this little resume pieces of mine, but I did do some work on that tiny house. I don't even think yeah. I don't remember what all I did. I remember in there working. So, yeah, it was Did

Leah:

you sell it? Yeah. We sold it, and the guy who bought it lives in San Francisco. And so he hired there's a company you can hire to come pick it up. They have, like, a big truck, and we have footage of them drive they drive it through it all the way across the country.

Doug:

Did you make money on it?

Leah:

Yeah. Okay. So my dad got his investment back, and then we split the profit, and it was great. And that was a great learning experience. I mean, it was super, super hard and frustrating, but it was fun.

Doug:

Who wants to build a tiny house this weekend? No.

Keith:

So so we went we went from the one bedroom apartment with mom and dad, tiny house. Now you moved not into one of the sexy towns around in Indianapolis. You moved a little further away. Tell us where you live and how big that is now.

Leah:

We live in Lapel, Indiana, and our house is 1,400 square feet.

Keith:

1,400. Who could live in that much space?

Leah:

I know. It's not even all usable. I would say there's, like, a thousand usable square feet. And now we have two dogs, a cat, and two children.

Doug:

So That's good with that. Bulk bed. It is good.

Keith:

So from from when you moved into the apartment until right now, how many years has that been?

Leah:

Ten.

Keith:

Ten years of choosing to constrain your space, but but by doing that, you've expanded your world because you haven't put yourself in significant financial bonds, I'm guessing. And so what seems like you're constraining your world, you may be expanding it, which is a different way of thinking for a lot of people because it's very tempting to go buy that mansion, get that greenhouse. Right?

Leah:

So tempting. We're building now, as you know, on a couple acres, and I want to move out there before the house is done so bad. I and our house seems to be getting smaller every day. Like, the door frames are shrinking almost. But it's a very sweet feeling to know that that we made some difficult decisions in order to do this the right way.

Keith:

That's awesome. I love that. I love it. And I do know because we had five kids in an RV, how small space can get very quickly and how that can add to your stresses in life as well. So those of you who watching, just think you can expand your world by thinking smaller sometimes.

Keith:

And who knows what opportunities and stories that's going to give. I don't know anybody else in my circle that has had a tiny house. How about you, Doug? You

Doug:

My neighbors build them and sell them. Okay. But I I've never asked them details. I and now I'm curious.

Leah:

There's a lot of different ways to do it. We did a ton of research, pulled in some people from our world, I'm big, you, several other people that did some electric and plumbing and stuff. It's no small feat. Wait. Why did you bring Keith in?

Leah:

I don't know. He was a willing

Keith:

I brought it myself. He just exaggerate. He doesn't do any electric or plumbing. Let me let me throw it. I have, Doug.

Keith:

I have done this also. I've built an airplane. That's true. You have. Yeah.

Keith:

That's true. Have. Leah's dad is building his own airplane. Right? And it's about time.

Doug:

Build things. And so I tell dad is a hero at the Shreve House. He introduced Warner to to fly. And so we think that Leah's dad is just a great man. He's a patient man, and he's an excellent teacher.

Doug:

And so popping rivets on his airplane Yeah. Really makes sense to me.

Keith:

Yeah. I've got a a bunch of those little resume things nobody really knows about, but that's a fun thing. Thanks to your family. So so now I think it's two weeks ago I saw the data point that only twelve percent of Americans who are 30 years old are married and own their own house or have a house. They don't I'm sure they don't own it.

Doug:

Is that high or low? I don't even know.

Keith:

Twenty years ago, it's closer to 40 or 50% at 30 years old.

Doug:

Okay.

Keith:

And and

Doug:

so You'd served in two world wars by then as well. Well,

Keith:

the the part that concerned me is like a long range person is the idea that we're we're in a in a country where birth rates are going down. Marriage rates are going down. And but this whole conversation started from our friend, Larry May, and I didn't do my homework in time, but he he he was I don't know what his title is right now was for organization like Indiana Kids Belong or something like that. And so briefly, talk to us about Like like, how did Kyler come into your life? Because I I don't even know the story of how that all happened for you you guys.

Keith:

So

Leah:

Yeah. So our oldest son, he is six, six and a half. And we decided shortly after in 2019, we've moved into the house that we're in right now and had been trying to have kids, wasn't really working out. I didn't really wanna go the medical route. And so we decided, well, let's let's try fostering.

Leah:

I had thought about it in the past. Taylor took a couple more months to get on board, but eventually, I I won him over. And so we signed up to foster at the 2020, and we're licensed very quickly within, like, two and a half months. And three days after we got our license, we got a phone call in the middle of the night that there was a 10 old little boy in Anderson that needed somewhere to stay for the night. Wow.

Leah:

And we had kind of stopped our training right at where we had completed all the foster portion, but we were like, we're we don't really wanna be let's foster for a while. We don't wanna adopt. And I had kind of convinced myself that I didn't want kids. I couldn't have kids, so I didn't really want them. And that made me feel better about not being able to

Keith:

have

Leah:

them. And so we got this little boy, and long story short, we never gave him back. And now he's our son. So it was a really, really long journey. Working with DCS is not for the faint of heart.

Doug:

And Tell

Keith:

us tell us what DCS is.

Leah:

Department of Children and Family Services. K. They have multiple three letter that mean the same thing, but essentially CPS, DCS. And then also just, like, walking alongside him and his birth mom was not an easy thing. That definitely expanded my world.

Leah:

I feel like before then, I was kind of raised in this bubble, and I had done, like, kind of mission trips and, like, disaster relief. And I had kind of sort of stepped my foot out of this, like, first world area that I grew up in, but I had not really allowed myself to feel what some of what some of these people who were living down the street from me were feeling, how they were raised, how they you know, what their worldview was. And it becoming his mom opened my heart in a way that even becoming a mom to my youngest son, who is biologically mine, didn't. You know, I have a different connection with either of them, but the connection that I have with Kyler has expanded my mind and my heart so much. So, yeah, I don't know

Keith:

if that's

Doug:

How many years did you walk alongside of your son's mom? Like

Leah:

Let's see. So we so we got him a couple weeks after lockdown. COVID happened.

Keith:

Oh, wow.

Leah:

Yeah. So that was intense. There's just, like, all of a sudden, we have a 10 old. We can't leave the house, and we've never had kids before.

Keith:

Did you hear the instructions?

Leah:

Call no. I told my mom that night, I was like, what do these eat? Because I don't know. And we had all of these infant clothes. We didn't think we were gonna get a 10 old.

Leah:

We weren't expecting that the child we got would be mobile, and he's, like, crawling. So let's see. We got him at the 2020, and then 2021 the rest of that year really was mostly virtual just because of COVID. And I Taylor and I made a decision to intentionally distance ourselves in certain ways from his mom so that we could stay impartial because there's legal proceedings going on. And so in order to not be called to testify at any of the parental rights trials or anything like that, it's best if we just are the foster parents, and that's it.

Leah:

So he would be picked up for visitation. We never met her until after the adoption was final, but I had, like, digital communication with her. And it was super hard. Yeah. Because he's her baby.

Keith:

Right.

Leah:

But she's not making good choices, and she's not keeping it safe. And he's been given to us, and it's just not how God intended family. And so it feels really unnatural and kind of, like, just gross. But at the same time, you know that this has been placed in your life and in your family for a reason to make it not gross.

Doug:

High fives to all you guys. Because I'm sure those were a lot of nights of tears and and all kinds of emotions and conversations and Oh, really? To everybody.

Leah:

That's hard.

Keith:

I I I don't even shout out a high five to Larry and Tammy May because they've been they've been cheering this thing on. I've gotten some of the fundraisers, and I'm like, I don't know. Like, I've mentally worked my way through it. I'm like, I don't know how anybody does that, but it's really cool.

Doug:

They allow the voices to be heard.

Keith:

Right. Right. And so so so we've got Tyler. And then so so what I sense is that there's this ebb and flow of your emotions from a lot of different things, like moving in with your mom and dad would be an emotional thing, moving into this tiny house, all these things. Then then you get COVID lockdown, which is throwing a lot of emotions at you.

Keith:

And then learning what you're doing, and that would have been a roller coaster. And then when did you when did you look at the thing? And That was wild. Talk to us. What do you mean look at the thing?

Leah:

Pregnancy test.

Keith:

Oh, okay. Yeah. I've never been one of them.

Leah:

Neither have been either. I

Keith:

was by myself.

Leah:

What? So we had Tyler's 20, 20. So Tyler would have been, like, two ish. He was still he was not adopted, and we were still moving toward reunification. That's always the goal.

Leah:

They, like, count that in. Reunification is better. Even if you don't think that they're gonna have a perfect home life, it's you know, the studies show that kids are better off with their birth parents, period. So that was our goal, and that's what we were working toward. And I got pregnant, And I was not happy because I, like I said, had decided that I didn't want kids, and we were gonna give Kyler back.

Leah:

And so I was a little irritated with god that he wouldn't allow this to happen to me.

Doug:

Middle name, Sarah? No. Okay.

Leah:

So that started a season of my life where, like you said, COVID kind of shrunk my world, everybody's world, I think. And then getting pregnant, I got really, really, really sick. I had hyperemesis. I had COVID and RSV in my third trimester. And then five and a half weeks before my due date, I was hospitalized and had an emergency C section, was in the hospital for a week, and Jack was in the NICU for two weeks.

Leah:

I didn't get to meet him for thirty six hours. It was like everything they lost my placenta. Everything that could go wrong went wrong.

Keith:

Let's keep moving forward.

Leah:

Yeah. And I was mad. I was so mad, and my world was so small, especially in that hospital room. I mean, everything that mattered to me was a problem. You know?

Leah:

I I at this point, we had planned on keeping Kyler. When I got pregnant, we spent a lot of time in prayer and just talking about, okay. So God's given us this child. Maybe he's also trying to give us this other child. We're not really sure what that looks like, but it really feels like we're supposed to be parents at this point.

Leah:

And we were at a point in the reunification adoption sort of space where they were saying, okay. His mom is not improving. Either you guys are gonna start the adoption process, or we're gonna move him to an adoptive home. And so right before I got pregnant, we went on a vacation and just Taylor and I. And before we left for that vacation, Kyler was gonna go to a visitation with his mom.

Leah:

And if it went well, he wasn't gonna come back.

Doug:

Right. Right.

Leah:

So I remember that weekend, we went to a bunch of parks. We met up with Taylor's parents. We met up with my parents and my brother, and, like, everybody kind of said their goodbyes, but, like, maybe not. And that was so hard. And then I got pregnant.

Leah:

And so it just really felt like god was saying, you know, like, I want you to feel what it feels like to almost not have this. Not in a not in a mean way, but just in a way that I would maybe understand more of the gravity of it. And so we came go ahead.

Doug:

What would be your message to someone who's at that place this weekend where the where they might take the foster kid to the park to see his mom, and that might be it? What what what would you tell them today based on what you know now?

Leah:

Hug them really hard and pray.

Keith:

Yeah.

Leah:

And there's other practical things you can do. Like, you can try to stay in contact, but, like, there's so many different burial variables that that can make that not possible. But, honestly, prayer has been prayer is really, like, one of the only ways that I feel like I can cope with the foster care system, but also kids in general. Just anything out of your control, and kids are very much out of your control, like, no matter where they come from.

Doug:

I love that God can touch hearts. He can go through walls, go through counties, just like that. And so I think prayer only makes sense.

Leah:

Yeah.

Doug:

The only way you could have communication with them. Mhmm. So

Keith:

so we're at the park.

Leah:

Yeah. We're saying goodbye.

Keith:

We're saying goodbye, and then then spring forward for us what happens then.

Leah:

Yeah. So we get back from vacation. I get pregnant. We pray a lot and decide, okay. I think we're gonna keep him, which is, like, kind of a crazy conversation to have.

Leah:

Right? It's like, he's not a dog. But it's like, are we gonna keep him? Or we don't I mean, I'm like it's not a common conversation that people have, you know, unless they're talking about a dog.

Keith:

That's the thing. This is this is kind of an irrevocable decision, though. Yeah. I once you say I do, it's like

Leah:

Right.

Keith:

Okay.

Leah:

And you're dealing with this child who, like, you feel almost more of a responsibility for because I always felt this connection with his mom that, like, I me and her are the only two people who know what it's like to be Kyler's mom.

Doug:

Wow.

Leah:

And so I felt this just level of, like, grace and love toward her that I have not felt toward anyone else ever. And I don't know that I would be able to apply that to anyone else, but she passed away last fall from an overdose, and that that shook me more than I thought it would for him. Because I thought, you know, things aren't things aren't good now. She can't do it now. But maybe she can, or maybe she could be his friend.

Leah:

Maybe he can know where he came from. Maybe he can see how much she really wanted to do it. She wanted to love him. She or she loves him, but she wanted to be able to provide that for him, and I wanted him to see that. And so when she passed away, just knowing that he would never get that from her in the first person was another layer of responsibility.

Leah:

Right? Because then it's like, okay. Now it's my job too, not only to be his mom, but to teach him who his first mommy. That's what we call her. His first mommy is.

Leah:

What a legacy. What all she did for him. Because she raised it for ten months, and that's not nothing. I've raised a baby from zero to 10, and it's very hard. So and she did it with way less support and with way less just community.

Leah:

And so I'm just very impressed by her, and I wish that she could have stuck around. I wish that she could have been more part of our lives. But I'm grateful that I have him, and I'm grateful to her for that.

Keith:

I've I've had this and I ponder a lot of stuff, but one of them was, like, if you if you grew up in a dysfunctional house, for example, you could have a bad attitude towards the people that were leaving that situation. But one of the things that occurred to me a few years ago was whoever the parents were, most likely they did the very best they could at that time with what they knew. And to give somebody grace to that situation takes a little bit of stepping back and thinking about what what got them to where they were. And it's really hard to know, I think. It's really a hard thing to know.

Keith:

But just giving people that much space is big deal.

Leah:

It's amazing how many people when I talk about our experience with the foster care system and specifically with Kyler, it's amazing how many people will say something negative about her and think that that's just they don't understand that she aged out of the foster care system. She never had a mom. Yeah. Well, I can't imagine being a mom without my mom. I almost lost my mom in 2019 to cancer, and I think all the time about, like, oh my gosh.

Leah:

What would have happened? I mean, I would have I don't know what I don't know that we would have either of our boys. I mean, there's just so much that a mom and a dad shouldn't have that either, but there's so much that a mom offers that becomes who you are.

Keith:

So so man, there's so much that we could go to. I wanna I wanna make a shift if you're okay. Let me grab something off my bookshelf here. But this, I've mentioned this in a number of our podcasts, how to stop worrying and start living. Found this book last summer, I think, and bought enough copies that I could share with anybody.

Keith:

So so and my kids have heard me say this over and over that you guys talk differently than I do. And so you you, being generally people your age, have a phrase that I never said, and I catch myself saying it now. And I said it differently. You say, I feel like. And what I said in that same season was I think.

Keith:

Does that make sense? And so it kinda helps me think differently about younger people because you've kind of been a mentor to feel more than to think about things. I'm not saying that judgmentally. I'm just saying

Leah:

I agree.

Keith:

And so you told me you were willing to talk a little bit. We don't have a ton

Doug:

of time to talk today. I bet we'd be going overtime a little bit.

Keith:

Okay. Say anything? Well, we're just gonna the the this topic, we need I I asked Lee if she'd come back in a few months and go away so I could research a little more. So our goal is all we'll go a little over time because this topic, I think, is a huge deal. Yeah.

Keith:

But what were the letters you texted me that you're willing to talk about? Because I don't know what it

Leah:

was. SSRI.

Keith:

SSRI. Do know what that is, Doug?

Leah:

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's an antidepressant.

Keith:

I still don't know what it is. Okay. Be grateful that you I know what that is. Right. And and I'm not saying I this conversation is just to talk about what are you doing with it because this book, when I read it, I thought, my goodness, this book answers a lot of questions I had in 1992 that nobody had talked to me about.

Keith:

So so you if you're involved with an antidepressant, then I'm taking it. You must have been diagnosed as depressed.

Leah:

Yeah. About thirteen years ago. When I was 18 years old, and my whole world was sort of imploding from a family and church scandal. They were like, you know what? Your problem is?

Leah:

You're depressed. Okay. You have a brain condition.

Keith:

Okay. Is that how they said it? Or they said it some other way? Or

Leah:

No. I mean, they said you you have a chemical imbalance in your brain, so you need these medic you need these drugs.

Keith:

And and how how was that being expressed to you personally? What were you experiencing at that point?

Leah:

I had gone to a couple I will come to a Christian counselor that I was not a fan of, so I stopped going to her. And then I started going to a psychiatrist up in Lafayette while I was at Purdue going to college. And she I think it was our first meeting. I sort of explained what was going on just situationally and then how I felt about it. And she said, I think that this drug could really help you.

Leah:

I don't remember if she said, you know, we can do this short term or not, but it ended up not being short term. So but it was thirteen years ago too. So my memory is failing.

Keith:

So so what I think this is my opinion. What has evolved generically is and what Carnegie talked about here was sometimes you have to learn coping skills. And and so when when I was talking about the the Burkina Faso, the stuff that the people were dealing with every day was probably I don't wanna minimize what you were going through. Probably a lot worse than what you were going through, but you only had your small world to put it in perspective. Right.

Keith:

And so if you had that day to do over because you you were telling you were telling me tapering. Is that what you were talking about?

Leah:

Yeah. So tapering off. So basically, since then, I've added another medication and then steadily increased for thirteen years. Until now, I was basically maxed out. I couldn't go anymore on those two drugs.

Leah:

So the so we were either gonna add another one or what are we gonna do? I mean, I have this brain condition. My I don't have the right chemicals in my brain, so we have to do something. I can't fix it.

Keith:

So you you you had a a traumatic event that kicked this off. I know your mom battled cancer. We talked about your house and all the volatility there. That's they used to have a scale of the high stress events in life. I think I would think those three would be pretty high.

Leah:

My pregnancy and delivery was

Keith:

That well, having a child will be high. Yeah. And then having a child that you may have or may not have, that may not be on that list, but it blows my brain even to think about that. So you've had all these emotional things. And in the midst of that, you're you're tapering?

Leah:

Well, in the midst of all that, I was increasing.

Keith:

Okay.

Leah:

But but yeah. Now I'm now I'm tapering. I started tapering in June.

Doug:

Tape someone start doing that? Do you raise your hand and say, I'm gonna start tapering? Or

Leah:

It depends on how involved your doctor is. I messaged my doctor, and I said, hey. I wanna start tapering.

Doug:

Is that a good idea?

Leah:

I think it depends. I I was starting to feel nothing, which and it's hard to describe that because I had been on it for so long. Just in the last couple of months, I've started to feel again. And so it's hard for me to describe, like, feeling nothing because it was almost like I I started feeling nothing even more, which is a hard thing to put into words. But I wouldn't recommend people just taper off their antidepressants willy nilly.

Doug:

Yeah.

Leah:

Don't do that. Yeah. So so And don't stop taking them. If you just stop taking them, they will cause serious brain damage. They're very, very serious drugs, especially benzos, which is not

Keith:

So so I don't even know, like, one of our kinda mantras that give us think differently. I don't know how you even would start that process. Like, how if you're feeling nothing, what what happened that one day you're like, maybe I could feel again. Like, I don't even know how you would stop thinking the other way.

Leah:

I I really think it was God. I really just think the spirit prompted me to start thinking differently. And the the what I started thinking differently about was these medications, and I think that was the first step of once I started to break down, then it was like, okay. Now this feeling's getting a little bit more. Now I really feel like I need to get off of these.

Leah:

Oh, wait. Now I'm I'm discovering more things about myself. Oh, wait. I can feel I can feel this emotion now. And so I'm like learning

Doug:

for anxious.

Leah:

Yeah. I'm learning more and more about myself, but the first sort of spark, I don't know. I I again, I can only credit that to god because when you're feeling nothing, it's hard to feel anything. You know? Yeah.

Keith:

That's what I'm saying. And and I would think that there would be this thought in your head. If I if I taper from this and something goes off the rails, what am I gonna do now? I don't know if that was a thought you've processed. Or

Leah:

I wrote this down the other night, actually, and shared it with Taylor. I was journaling, but I said so SSRIs are they could be numbing. I've heard them described that way, and that's a very act it's not for everybody, but it's very accurate for me. And another thing that helped me when I started this tapering journey is because of how some of my medications were formulated, I had to go on a twice a day regimen because I was taking an extended release capsule, and I couldn't cut it. And so I'm, like, at home cutting like, I I have a pill binder in my bag.

Leah:

I'm cutting you know, I'm taking down just milligrams a day to try to get off of these safely. But I couldn't do that with one of my medications. So I had to message my doctor, and I said, hey. I wanna taper. Can you send me a prescription for this immediate release version?

Leah:

My doctor's not involved in my life, so she was like, sure. Sent it. No big deal. She's like, good luck with your taper. So what happened is I got really strict about when I was taking my meds because I was taking them twice a day now.

Leah:

Not realizing that I had been really bad at taking my meds before, only taking them, like, every other day, every third day. And so all of a sudden, was on way more drugs than I even had been before I wanted to take

Keith:

them. And

Leah:

my emotions were gone. I felt nothing. I mean, Taylor and I would be driving in the car, and I'm just like a zombie. And so I felt like that was a blessing in disguise because it it confirmed, like, okay. I want more of these now, and I'm feeling way less.

Leah:

So you started to up and keep score. Yeah. So I wrote this down the other night. I always assumed that turning my feelings up would be horrible. Because when I turned them down, it was because they were horrible.

Leah:

But it's almost like in the last thirteen years, someone has changed the channel. And so I'm turning them up, and it's good. And I wrote, it's not that my feelings have only increased. They've expanded. And so my emotional vocabulary is exploding.

Leah:

I felt joy and gratitude and hope multiple times lately. So I know it's not a fluke because I can be very cynical and be like, well, you know, like, it's because it's sunny outside or something. You know? But it's like it's it's becoming consistent. I'm driving in the car and and noticing the trees and just, like I'll find that I that I have a little smile on my face for no reason.

Leah:

And it's, like, so magical. It's cool to feel things.

Keith:

What do you know now that I we were talking yesterday. It's magical to feel things. What do you think? Is that is that our title? I mean, magical.

Keith:

Yeah. I think

Doug:

that sounds pretty good. Yeah. I mean,

Leah:

we'll let you know how it goes.

Keith:

It's been magical to hang out with Billy, and I hope you all enjoyed our time together. And I I'm glad we have you back because I I'd really love to jump into this and talk to it specifically for you, see where you're at and help other people that might wanna talk and learn about it as well.

Leah:

Absolutely. Anytime.

Keith:

You guys have a great weekend, and thanks for hanging with us today. We'll see you soon.