EP 58 An "Accident" at Work and Gandalf is HR's Best Recruiter with Melissa Yergensen

Melissa Yergensen has done HR at a two-hundred-person county government, an underground mine, a giant hospitality company, and back again, and she has an opinion about which one prepared her best. It is not the one you would guess. She joins Steve and Tony to explain why she thinks corporate HR, the version with the big titles and the bigger silos, might be quietly making the profession worse, and why the HR people who never got a fancy title might actually be better at the job.

Along the way, there is a workers' comp claim that starts in a supply closet and ends somewhere nobody expected, a scheduling form with an answer nobody should have written down, and a small town where firing someone on Tuesday means running into them at your kid's basketball game on Wednesday. Steve and Tony also drag Melissa into a Lord of the Rings comparison she never asked for, and somehow it explains exactly why good people stay in bad jobs too long. Is HR having an identity crisis, or did it just get lost trying to sound smart at the executive table? 

Learn more about Melissa Yergensen at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-yergensen-mshrm-sphr-ipma-scp-aa7a6711a/
Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven "Big Deal" Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the Books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn More about the Netflix film Titan at: https://www.netflix.com/title/81712178


Learn more about Dyno Outfitters at: https://www.utahviaferrata.com/
Learn more about MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/
Learn more about Thrive Life Project at: https://www.thrivelifeproject.org/

Creators and Guests

Host

Fantastic Tony Benjamin

I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.

Host

Steven "Big Deal" Smith

Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.

What is The HR Life Podcast?

The HR Life Podcast is a show about the work-life experience of those of us in Human Resources and business leadership. This long-form podcast is a conversation, casual, and not always the corporate line. Hosts and guests touch on everything from serious or even controversial topics to the absurdity of modern American business practices. Your hosts are Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of The Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven J. Smith, Author of The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction and all-around important guy. Guests include the best minds in the HR world. Join the show weekly.

TonyB (00:13.796)
Welcome to the HR Life Podcast, a podcast about the work life experience of those of us in human resources and business leadership. Your hosts are fantastic Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of the Grange, Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven Big Deal Smith, who has so many stories to tell about working at Walmart that he ends up on the stage at two weeks' notice concerts with a mic in his hand. Hey Steve!

Steve Smith (00:40.257)
That's right.

Steve Smith (00:45.252)
my gosh, have we never talked about that story before?

TonyB (00:47.716)
We we have I don't think we've talked about that story. That's

Steve Smith (00:50.911)
my word.

TonyB (00:52.878)
One of my favorites. One of my favorites. Just so you know, I yeah, I used to repeat and everybody I'm just gonna say that Melissa Jurgensen is joining us today and she's in the house.

Steve Smith (00:54.538)
It's one of your favorites.

Steve Smith (01:03.139)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (01:05.02)
Thank you.

TonyB (01:06.49)
Yeah, wa watch out for the for those crowds. Don't get

Melissa Yergesen (01:08.732)
Just leave that on the rest of the time.

Steve Smith (01:11.622)
Just the whole time.

TonyB (01:12.186)
Yeah. Watch out for the don't get near the velvet rope. They'll grab you and want to snippy your hair or something. It's really disgusting. Wow. Okay, there you go. There you go. Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:17.926)
I'm used to that, it's fine.

Steve Smith (01:23.011)
How did I know she was gonna say that? Like I just knew that. That's hilarious.

TonyB (01:28.314)
Course she did. No, but Steve, that story that you told and you can retell that story here in just a second, but that story that you told, Melissa knows I used to say that on stage all the time.

Melissa Yergesen (01:39.356)
Stів that story is basin famous.

Steve Smith (01:39.607)
Yeah. That story comes from Alabama. We had a few folks out there that kind of helped with that. It makes so much sense. Yeah, I can give you the basis for this story and just kind of explain what what what happened. Woman you know, woman comes in, files a accident report basically. And it it you know you

TonyB (01:43.652)
It is. Yes.

Melissa Yergesen (01:47.095)
my goodness, that makes so much sense, Steve.

TonyB (01:56.474)
Yeah, you gotta tell you gotta say now.

Steve Smith (02:08.055)
Whenever there's a workplace investigation, you have to bring him in, you have to talk with them and have the conversation, find out, okay, what what's going on? And she was really reluctant to kind of talk about it. So finally it we just got to the basic parts, you know, where it's like, okay, well, where did it happen in the closet? Were there any witnesses? Yes, George. And, you know, things of that nature. Well, it turns out that she was she won a workers comp and for an accident of work.

TonyB (02:29.946)
So she wanted workers comp, right? She wanted workers comp. For an accident at work. That's my favorite line.

Steve Smith (02:36.455)
And the funny part about this was is, you know, and the reason she wanted this is because part-time, no insurance, you know, things of that nature. And so it makes sense, right? W workers will do anything and everything they can to try to get something. Well, what happened was is she didn't get hurt at all. Her and George, or I you know, I don't even remember names now. they had a a wonderful time in the closet. And

Melissa Yergesen (03:05.766)
As you do.

Steve Smith (03:05.983)
As a result, yeah, as we do. Wow. At two weeks' notice concerts, apparently. And she accidentally got pregnant. And so that was the accident report. She accidentally got pregnant. And and you know, you know, I don't know. I mean, reasoning wise, it made sense, right? I mean, you could reason that that was absolutely an accident. So there you go.

TonyB (03:12.698)
Right, right, apparently.

TonyB (03:20.27)
Right. That was the accident at work. Right, she accidentally.

TonyB (03:30.524)
Yeah.

TonyB (03:34.456)
Right, right. And it happened at work. Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (03:36.572)
Did you file the claim?

Steve Smith (03:36.739)
No.

TonyB (03:39.866)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (03:45.023)
that's hilarious. That's hilarious now that you say that.

Melissa Yergesen (03:48.816)
Right. Can you imagine the call from the claims adjuster? Like, hey, I just wanna chat through this one with you. Are you

Steve Smith (03:55.627)
Let's talk through this one. Can I meet with her? Can I

TonyB (03:58.768)
C can we can we have a longer conversation about what an accident is to find us? Right.

Melissa Yergesen (04:00.995)
Steve Smith (04:05.437)
man, there's some whoppers out there. I I you know, I I remember one of my favorites when I when I first started my recruiting career in Maryland, we had a woman filling out, you know, paperwork and back then everything was on paper and and you had the little, you know, fields that were just kind of blank and one of them said sex, you know, you put male or female. Well, she put under the sex field every Tuesday. So so I'm just like so when you sit, you know, you get to paper, right? Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (04:05.763)
I mean

TonyB (04:30.16)
Sorry we didn't warn all of you with kids in the car. Sorry.

Steve Smith (04:34.347)
Yeah, you sit down. You sit down to have the conversation and you're just like, whoa. And you see that every Tuesday. And it was very big letters, mind you. And I'm just thinking to myself, Okay, Tuesdays, make sure she's home early. That's right. That's right. We will make sure you get off early that day. Anyway, so there you go.

TonyB (04:46.552)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (04:47.118)
It was also a schedule request.

TonyB (04:54.136)
It's really good.

Melissa Yergesen (04:55.42)
That's right.

TonyB (04:56.826)
No, no, and the f the first time Steve told that is when the band performed at the Work Elevator Conference in twenty two. the first night we we did we did some entertainment that night and and yeah, Steve got up and told that story. So there you go.

Steve Smith (05:16.355)
So fun. There's some whoppers out there. Like I said, I I know so many stories from all kinds of things. But you know, this is why they tell you in HR you should write a book, right? About what all these crazy stories. Cause let me tell you, they're they exist out there. And it's kind of sad because in HR we can't really talk about them, right? Like at least at the time you have to wait till you're probably in your fifties or sixties before you can really start talking. But then you don't write them down and you don't remember. So for all of you listening right now, get a journal and start keeping track.

That's all you have to do. Just keep track.

TonyB (05:45.552)
There you go.

Melissa Yergesen (05:47.206)
doing that, Steve. I think really though the like the sweet spot is like a chicken noodle suit for the soul, but it's HR horror stories and just like putting together a bunch of different people's stories. Like poems, but with laughter.

Steve Smith (05:48.973)
Yes.

Steve Smith (06:02.359)
Yeah. Yeah. May maybe one of those little calendar thing desk items where you pull up the calendar. Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you who have the stories out there, let us know and we'll make a podcast calendar. That's right. That's right. HR Life Podcast Calendar.

TonyB (06:06.414)
That's perfect. Yeah. HR incident of the day.

Melissa Yergesen (06:06.65)
Yeah. that's a good idea.

Melissa Yergesen (06:12.631)
Yeah. We'll start making it together, yeah.

TonyB (06:15.95)
Actually, that's a great idea. Everybody send in your I send in a short story for that. That's right. Send it to the HRlife at gmail.com or the HRlife Podcast at gmail.com.

Steve Smith (06:24.269)
Do people even use yeah, do people even use calendars anymore? I I don't even know.

TonyB (06:30.478)
I it I don't know that it matters because we would sell a bunch of just to have on their desk. That's right.

Steve Smith (06:34.019)
Just because. So we need 365 stories, guys. So there you go. Challenge given. So

TonyB (06:39.48)
That's right. That's right. Put up now. Put up now. Well, Melissa, thank you for being here. now I did threaten that I was gonna have you sing a little bit today, so maybe we'll get to that here in a few minutes. But but anyways, for those of you who don't know, Melissa was the singer for our band for what, three and a half years, right? Yeah. Yeah, no

Steve Smith (06:52.693)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (06:52.721)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (07:03.12)
Yeah, I think something like that until you fired me.

Steve Smith (07:07.475)
Yes.

TonyB (07:09.048)
No, no. No. That's yeah, that that's a good rumor to start. I'm gonna be at the conference. Like, why'd you fire Melissa? Yeah, yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (07:09.33)
That's for a different day.

Melissa Yergesen (07:18.534)
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, but the fourth of July.

TonyB (07:23.984)
I actually th this is the best part. So Melissa used to get sick before sometimes before we would sing or perform. Like she'd get a head cold or something like that. And she'd always she'd come and would warm up before the thing, would always take a couple of guitars and a and a box to beat on or something like that, and would warm up a song or two. And she'd start by saying, I'm sick today, guys. I'm sick. I I don't have the voice. I don't have my range. I'm not very good.

And then she would get up on stage and those were her best performances ever. Like she'd rocket on those days. Yeah. And it's

Melissa Yergesen (07:54.865)
Yep, they were.

I think it's 'cause I maybe used my diaphragm right or something. There has to be like a technical piece to how that worked. I don't know.

Steve Smith (08:03.883)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I always sit and slotch when I sing, so there you go. That's that's why nobody listens to me.

TonyB (08:06.042)
Yeah, yeah. And then

And and do you wanna say what happened after we performed all the time?

Melissa Yergesen (08:14.916)
Everyone told me how amazing I was and wanted my autograph.

TonyB (08:16.942)
Well y it was after that. It was after that. Just yeah. No, no, the

Steve Smith (08:20.371)
Mm they wanted guitar picks and pieces of hair and

Melissa Yergesen (08:23.298)
from the water drinking? Water drinking, yeah. So I would drink about, I don't know, between ten and twelve gallons of water during and forty-five minute set. And I don't ever drink water in my regular life. And so I don't know if there were many gigs I got home from that I didn't have to pull over and like throw up all of the water that I had inhaled during this show. Every show. It was horrible.

TonyB (08:25.228)
Yes, from the water drinking.

Steve Smith (08:49.163)
it just the jitters finally letting go or or r you really were just

TonyB (08:49.488)
Really funny.

Melissa Yergesen (08:52.088)
No, I think it's that I literally drink too much like I don't like there's like water poisoning or something. I think that's like a thing, right? Where you drink yours I think that's what was happening. 'Cause I would drink like, I don't know, seven or eight bottles of water in a forty five minute set 'cause it was always so hot. We only play in summer, in the middle of the day. Anyways.

Steve Smith (08:57.313)
Yeah, you could totally like drown yourself.

TonyB (09:08.784)
Yeah.

Yep, yep, that's that's exactly it.

Steve Smith (09:13.911)
Yeah, I think it's called water intoxication, right?

Melissa Yergesen (09:16.294)
That's it. Yes. Thank you, Steve. That's what it was.

TonyB (09:16.624)
Well,

Steve Smith (09:18.477)
We have a drinking game on the podcast and I drink water all the time, so I now I'm gonna be more careful.

TonyB (09:20.922)
Yeah. Yeah. We need to say strategic more often.

Melissa Yergesen (09:23.928)
You should you should be more careful.

Steve Smith (09:26.691)
Couldn't be totally be way more careful. I don't

TonyB (09:28.89)
Yeah, no, no th that's and then the guy down at Helper, when we played at Helper, was like bringing her cocktails and setting them on the stage.

Melissa Yergesen (09:38.592)
my gosh. Spicy margaritas, I think it was. I don't even know. It had like red fire salt or something. So there was a lot of problems with that beverage that I wouldn't be consuming it. Anyways, I was s wire with like salt fire, I don't have any idea. I gave it to the other guitar player, not Tony. And I was kind of sha ha

Steve Smith (09:40.289)
Whoa.

TonyB (09:42.48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Steve Smith (09:51.031)
How can you drink something like that and then sing? That would totally like Yeah.

TonyB (09:51.384)
It was so funny.

TonyB (10:00.898)
Not me, that's right. Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (10:03.772)
There's a piece of me that you feel like do you have to drink it? You know, like if you're a guest in someone's home and they feed you like a weird food, you have to eat it or it's rude. I didn't drink it, I gave it to somebody else, but

Steve Smith (10:09.315)
Right. That's a good point.

TonyB (10:12.73)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (10:13.827)
You know what I would give you if I were at the stage? I'd give you those little dragon balls, you know, the the ones that that when you eat it like you like the smoke like comes out of your mouth or whatever. That would be fun. That would be fun.

Melissa Yergesen (10:23.825)
Yeah.

TonyB (10:25.84)
Right, right, right.

Melissa Yergesen (10:26.876)
Is that a real thing?

Steve Smith (10:28.525)
Yeah, drag I I think they call dragon balls. Yeah. You they just what they do is they freeze dry like tricks or something like that, and then they put in in dry ice or whatever. And so it makes it so that they're I I think that's what they're called. I don't know. So I I'm sure a listener out there is gonna correct us or correct me.

Melissa Yergesen (10:36.124)
Got it. Okay.

Melissa Yergesen (10:44.142)
I felt like we should look and Tony should start that with his new lead singer.

Steve Smith (10:48.781)
Ha ha ha.

TonyB (10:50.224)
Yeah, that'd be that'd be awesome. Yeah, that'd be that'd be that'd be funny.

Steve Smith (10:51.895)
I feel like I feel like you get at some there's some ice cream place where you can get And I'm pretty sure they're called Dragon Balls. I'm pretty sure that's what they're called, but anyway, what do I know? I don't know. I've never actually had one. I've just seen it in action. So there you go.

TonyB (11:00.666)
Well we'll we'll figure we'll figure it out. No, that's

Yeah. It so it there you go, Melissa and and yeah. It a lot of fun, three and a half, four years or whatever it was of playing in the band together. It worked out really good. We're kinda well known around the basin. we we get we get people if they hear us. You'll enjoy this Melissa. Before the battle of the bands when we played, I went to the corndog food truck and I had on my t shirt and Luddie's like, You're in two weeks' notice, really?

Melissa Yergesen (11:30.268)
Food truck.

TonyB (11:35.16)
I gotta do this. She I'm so excited to see you guys. She was all excited. When are you playing? Is it today at the Battle of the Bands? I'm like, yes. And yeah, it was just It was that cool. Yeah, it was fun. It it was pretty fun. Okay, so now that we've talked about the important stuff, what this isn't even

Melissa Yergesen (11:45.532)
That's awesome. That's awesome.

Melissa Yergesen (11:53.016)
Obviously. Two weeks notice should sponsor your podcast.

TonyB (11:58.584)
That's right. That's right. You know, if this are actually were gonna come out this week, I would tell everybody come see us at the fourth of July. But by the time this drops, then then we'll already have performed there. But but July seventeenth at the car show in Roosevelt will be there. So everybody can come watch us there. okay, so Melissa, tell us about you, your background a little bit a bit. How did you get into HR? Like tell us tell us that. That's right.

Steve Smith (11:58.723)
There you go.

Melissa Yergesen (12:09.958)
Long gone, those days are gone.

Steve Smith (12:16.739)
Nice, nice.

Steve Smith (12:22.475)
Yeah.

Give us the scoop.

Melissa Yergesen (12:28.55)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very similar story to everybody else, right? Like nobody wakes up as a kid and it's like, I wanna do HR. Writing policy sounds awesome. Yeah. No, that's true. Because of the influence that we've had, it seems more popular now as a choice. But yeah, I was doing like baby HR in gas and oil, kind of office admin stuff like that, and moved to

Steve Smith (12:37.601)
Well not it not yeah, not back then. Now though, all the time.

TonyB (12:38.004)
Astronaut, HR, you know. Now yeah, now.

That's right.

Steve Smith (12:46.315)
That's right. That's right.

Melissa Yergesen (12:57.008)
the basin for my now husband. His job was better than my job. So that's how I ended up in the UNA basin. And one of the first jobs I got here was a payroll benefits admin job for the county. And so I got hired on in this like low level literally processing payroll benefits. They had a consultant at the time as their HR director. And so the county commission was like Melissa can do this. She's got a bachelor's degree in psychology and worked as a secretary. So

I was less than six months. They didn't renew her contract and they promoted me in a county commission meeting to HR director. And I was so excited but not ready. And I think I don't know, it's indicative of the career, the profession as a whole, right? Like, you know how to type on a computer, so you can be an HR director. anyways, I recognized immediately that I was out of my depths, talk about imposter syndrome. So I made good friends like you, Tony.

And yeah, my counterpart, the other county beside me, I called him a lot and just started learning from other people. started working on my certifications, first sat for my PHR, went back to school, got a master's in human resource human resources management, went back, got my SPHR certification. and then I also sat for a public management HR certification, my IPMA SCP.

TonyB (13:56.382)
Melissa Yergesen (14:23.578)
And then I went back again to school to start a second master's in legal studies because that was the piece of HR that I think I was most interested in. Maybe I would tell eighteen year old Melissa to go to law school, but now it doesn't make any sense for our life. And I think you have just as much opportunity really, right? You're a prime example of this to kind of do the legal side of HR. So anyways, worked at Duchenne County almost 10 years. after I started my after I finished my master's degree, I started consulting.

And that's what landed me up at an underground mine. So I went there and did private sector mining for two years.

Steve Smith (15:01.155)
Wait, wait, wait, wait. When you say you did private sector mining, were you in the mines, like with the caps and the lights and all that? What?

Melissa Yergesen (15:05.476)
S I d yeah, so the they did.

TonyB (15:08.912)
Yeah, just do HR in the bottom of the mine and

Melissa Yergesen (15:12.432)
You know what? It was really interesting because I felt like we had a lot of conversations about compensation, right? For these underground miners. And I was like, that's crazy. It can't be that hard. And so that was my first like toe dip in HR needs to understand the work and really understand the work. And so I put on a hard hat and I went underground and I watched what they were doing day in and day out. Same thing with our we had a production like processing plant. Same thing.

Steve Smith (15:31.543)
isso.

Melissa Yergesen (15:37.354)
and man, it was eye-opening to understand to really understand the work and to put your hands on the work. Because I don't know how you make recommendations about job descriptions or compensation packages if you literally have no idea what people are doing all day. anyways, left the mine, did a short stint in Missouri for a second, thought I was gonna relocate out of the basin, and that was for resort. So that was an entirely different version of HR.

TonyB (15:53.616)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (16:04.006)
hospitality employees are next level. Our turnover KPI there was sixty five percent and there were months I was over a hundred. Like it was wild. Then I made my way back. So I'm back in government HR, which really I think is my sweet spot. And loving every minute of it.

TonyB (16:22.03)
Yeah. Well good good for you. And you're back in the basin now. So

Steve Smith (16:25.635)
Yeah, that's cool.

Melissa Yergesen (16:26.98)
It's a vortex, like you think you're gonna get out and it pulls you right back in.

Steve Smith (16:29.249)
Abort.

TonyB (16:30.597)
Ha ha ha.

Steve Smith (16:32.503)
Well, you know what that's from, right? It's Kinwalker Ranch. I mean, we all know.

Melissa Yergesen (16:36.644)
I you're I bet you're right.

TonyB (16:36.88)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (16:38.256)
I'm totally right.

Melissa Yergesen (16:40.422)
Ha ha

TonyB (16:42.412)
Okay, and I'm the geek right there. that's that's they well thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay.

Melissa Yergesen (16:46.694)
You are, though.

Steve Smith (16:49.345)
It's real though. It's a real vortex. I'm just saying that that's what pulls you back. You don't realize it until it's too late. Yeah. You may be possessed right now and have no clue. So yeah, just saying. Just saying.

Melissa Yergesen (16:52.613)
It's

TonyB (16:54.66)
The other the magnetic energy field. That's what does it right there.

Melissa Yergesen (16:58.406)
Hundred percent fact. Well, I've been in HR for fifteen years, so that's probably true.

TonyB (17:07.318)
Alright, I'm gonna with that in mind with the vortex of Skinwalker Ranch, I'm gonna do our first read here. So looking for a team building experience your employees will actually talk about? Dino Outfitters Invernal, Utah offers guided trips on the epic new Ashley Gorge Via Ferrata. Help your team build trust, confidence, and real connection, all while hanging out on the side of a cliff. Reach out to build a custom experience at Utah.com.

ViaFerrata dot com. That's UtahViaFerrata.com. And shout out to Amber and Dino Outfitters for helping us out and sponsoring the podcast. And Steve and I are gonna do this. We're trying to work out dates now. And Melissa, you're invited. sometime or

Steve Smith (17:50.903)
Right. September.

Melissa Yergesen (17:52.258)
Absolutely not. Thank you though. Yes.

Steve Smith (17:54.179)
I told my wife about it and I was like and I was trying to explain it and she's like, You are horrible at selling this and I said, Okay, well let me show you a picture and she sees this guy dangling off a cliff and she's like,

TonyB (18:09.838)
When you go you're double strapped in though. You're double you're double anchored in on a on metal wires and all that.

Steve Smith (18:15.585)
Okay, so do you know what she really first told me? She said no, but you know what she said before that? She's like, wait a minute, are you trying to get on an episode of Dateline? That is her first That's her first comment. man.

Melissa Yergesen (18:24.666)
the same thought. Like I feel like that's a good start to it.

TonyB (18:29.68)
Funny. But shout out to Amber for sponsoring us. We're grateful for that. Okay.

Melissa Yergesen (18:33.328)
Of course, and that's such a cool thing, side note. I literally had a conversation today about hiring some seasonal workers out there to make sure that people have proper gear and that they've got everything they need to stay safe. So for anyone that likes the outdoors, super cool thing to have invernal for sure.

Steve Smith (18:50.507)
Yeah. Well and the views are incredible. I mean, just based on the pictures I've seen. I I mean you I if you love nature and you love that kind of stuff, I I've always loved repelling. Like I've I've been repelling quite a few times. I love that. And so this is a little bit unique, you know, and not just repelling down. So that's kinda cool.

TonyB (18:50.618)
Yeah, yeah.

TonyB (18:55.898)
Yeah, yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (18:58.363)
Right.

TonyB (19:06.426)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So okay, Melissa we're gonna hit you up now with the with the question that we ask everybody. what is the state what is the current state of HR? What where is it at right now?

Melissa Yergesen (19:21.36)
Yeah, so I think I'm a little I don't know if cynical is the right word.

TonyB (19:26.648)
It is when I talk, so go ahead.

Steve Smith (19:28.426)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (19:29.24)
I mean, I think so was it Johnny C. Taylor said something about HR is becoming extinct, right? As I think those were his words, or he used the word extinct because we have tried to make ourselves people experts, experts on people instead of the work. And so when I was reading the headlines about that, I started really digging into it because I feel like I've had this

I don't know, HR is having an identity crisis. That's what I think. I think that HR professionals in a attempt to sound smarter or get their seat at the table started using words like strategic, have a drink, and yeah, optimizing business processes and fluffy corporate jargon.

Steve Smith (20:10.231)
Well

TonyB (20:15.642)
People operations, yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (20:17.26)
Yes, that like it doesn't mean anything, right? Like and also it means a lot of things to a lot of different people. I think I shared with you this story about, you know, I was working for this large hospitality company when I was in Branson at this resort and one of the strategic initiatives handed down from our CHRO was to minimize missed meal breaks, make sure that people were having a lunch break because last year they cost us two million dollars. Well

To be handed down an initiative to go micromanage hourly employees to make sure they pump like punch out for a meal break, that is not strategic HR. That is me going to micromanage hourly employees, right? so, anyways, I think we've gotten in some tailspin that I'm not sure is gonna be easy to crawl out of where

TonyB (20:54.201)
No.

TonyB (20:58.597)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (21:06.662)
We're trying to justify what we do all day by saying we're being strategic or we're optimizing business processes or, you know, we'll circle back, workshop, whatever. But the reality is we need to just be good at what we do, right? And I think it starts with technical HR, where I think we have a fundamental gap with HR professionals. because everything else falls into place, right? Like when you really understand employment law and you understand the intent of some of these things, right?

And then you know how to practically apply it to real life situations. Then I think that's where you can kind of tap in and be a partner to whatever operations or finance or whatever the thing is. But until then I think we we're caught up with trying to like be awesome instead of just being awesome, right? And understanding the people that work in our business and you know how

Steve Smith (21:40.043)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (22:00.54)
How to make it a better place to work, 'cause when it's a great place to work, people do a really great job. And when people do a really great job, you make more money or fill in the blank. So anyways.

Steve Smith (22:07.875)
And who wouldn't want that as a business owner and founder and you know, I it it amazes me though too that this is sad to me that I've been talking with some HR professionals that are out of work right now and they don't want to be strategic. They don't want a seat at the table. They they actually prefer to do what they're already comfortable with, which is to go micromanage the employees and make sure they clock out for lunch type stuff. Like

TonyB (22:27.856)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (22:35.728)
Alright.

Steve Smith (22:36.417)
Like like this is what they want. And and in my mind, I'm thinking, wow, if if that's truly what you want. I mean, here we're in twenty twenty-six, and I'm literally talking to people that are on the market right now, wanting to get out there, and that's the kind of stuff they want to do because they don't really want to deal with the strategic side of it or the business operations or learning the lingo or all of those things. And and then we wonder why.

Those of us who can't seem to get a seat at the table because there's this, I don't know, thought of what people see HR. I mean, look at some of the movies that have come out just in last year alone, where HR is seen as this horrible, horrible thing. And it's like, well, the media totally gets it, makes fun of it. The office made fun of it for years. And I it's so strange to me that some people, that's where they want to be. They're just complacent and they're like, Yeah, that's who I am. And so therefore I'm just gonna be that way.

Melissa Yergesen (23:09.266)
Mm.

Steve Smith (23:33.687)
I don't need anything big. I just want to, you know, do my thing and be in the corner and not seen and move on. I that shocks me. It sh it just shocks me how many conversations I've had recently where they they literally have given up on the idea of of continuous learning because that's how I see it. Is this continuous learning process where I can actually help the organization grow and impact revenue and they don't even want to do that? Like what in the world?

Melissa Yergesen (23:59.078)
But do think some of that is like fear based? Like I felt like we talked to HR professionals who are out of a job. I've been in that position, right? Not long ago. and I felt like it was when I got the seat at the table and started having an opinion and feeling comfortable enough to share an opinion at said seat at said table. that led to unemployment, right? Like I feel like there's security for some.

Steve Smith (24:07.106)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (24:24.611)
Uh-huh.

Melissa Yergesen (24:26.37)
In sitting behind their desk and pushing the paper and doing the thing. And there's a spot for those people, right? Like we need HR people to process paperwork. But there is definitely correct. And there is risk. I mean, if people are out of work, I would almost venture to guess they sat at the table, they got comfortable, they gave an opinion, it wasn't respected, and now they are looking for work.

Steve Smith (24:32.237)
There is. Because you have to have balance, right? Yeah. Yep.

Steve Smith (24:48.973)
That's a great point because two of the people I can tell you right now that I've had conversations with very recently, that's exactly what happened. As soon as they started having those conversations, having those opinions, voicing them, saying, Why are we doing this? within months, they were basically ousted. So that that's interesting to me.

Melissa Yergesen (24:57.18)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (25:01.884)
Mm.

TonyB (25:05.88)
And and see part of me wants to look at the CEOs and CFOs and the CCU of a company and say, What the crap is wrong with you? Like somebody says something that you disagree with and so you punt them. Now I can see if someone's putting forward stuff that isn't aligned with the business over a period of time, right? And then you go, Hey, you're just not aligned with us. That that well, but he's he he's he's the he's a good example of this.

Melissa Yergesen (25:07.698)
Mm.

Steve Smith (25:27.895)
Yeah, look at what the Bolt CEO did, right?

Melissa Yergesen (25:30.576)
Yeah.

TonyB (25:35.328)
is that what what he saw was was crap. He he just saw people doing paperwork to do paperwork to have a process to say they wanted to do it. Right, right. And and Steve and I are going to do a reaction show to Johnny C. Taylor's speech at at at the National Conference. Yeah, because because I think it needs to be addressed. But what he talked about is all the

Steve Smith (25:42.243)
Just for just for the sake of doing it. Yep. Yep.

Steve Smith (25:52.395)
National Sherm. Yep.

Melissa Yergesen (25:53.894)
That's cool.

TonyB (26:00.185)
All the functions of of what we consider strategic HR being handed back to managers and practitioners within their own area and saying, you handle all this, right? Why, why is HR involved? Well, look, I can tell you right now that 90% of the managers I've dealt with over the last ten, twelve years, I don't trust them to write disciplinary action. And when on my legal stuff that I do, I see all the time the sort of crap that they tell people. Like, scary. Like, what are you doing? So

Steve Smith (26:29.441)
And is it do you think it's because they're not trained? Because I I see a lot of scenarios like that where like I mean, great example. We talked with Ben Eden several episodes ago about the PMQ Sherm certification that they have available. And and what Ben Eden's company is trying to do is they're trying to actually say, okay, you can learn all this stuff, but at the end of the day, you're gonna go back to the office, you're not gonna do any of it.

TonyB (26:33.284)
Yes.

Steve Smith (26:54.305)
And so that's not training managers. Training managers is actually having them have a coach of sorts that they they have access to for a full year where they can literally bounce these ideas and go back and forth and actually become a strategic partner for the organization. That's where I think the missing piece is is that, you know, even HR, I can send all my HR team off to Shrim National. But when they get back, how much of it are they actually going to implement in the organization? How much are there?

Melissa Yergesen (26:55.522)
Mm.

Steve Smith (27:22.381)
You know, they get the hoorah, Oprah Talk, Simon Cineck, those are such fun names, right? Such fun names. But at the end of the day, did they tell us anything that we didn't already know? One. And two, are we able to come into our organization and absolutely implement something that's that's going to change the revenue, that's going to have an impact on the people, the EBITDA and all that stuff within the organization right away? And if the answer is no to those questions, then what was the real purpose behind it?

Melissa Yergesen (27:25.426)
Ha ha

TonyB (27:29.328)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (27:51.509)
And and that's that's where I get a little miffed a little bit, I guess, when it comes to that's why whenever I do presentations, I wanna give you actionable items. You can literally go back to your office and you can put them in place right away. And and anybody who's been in my presentations know that. That you can literally go and and have actionable items. I don't I don't wanna be the super, you know, fluffy, hey, rah, rah, rah, you know, you guys are good people and all that stuff. So you can go home with the warm fuzzies, because the warm fuzzies don't get the job done. Period. They just don't.

TonyB (28:23.009)
Yeah, no that's go ahead, Melissa.

Melissa Yergesen (28:25.33)
Well I was just gonna say I think on top of that, like we've backed ourselves into a corner a little bit, right? Like get on if you're on LinkedIn with a and your network is HR people, y y within five minutes you could read four different posts or like articles on why HR sucks, right? Like, we're overworked, we're underpaid, we don't have a seat at the table, my CFO doesn't understand me. Where's HR for HR? Right, like in what other profession are we posting social media

articles about really disliking our profession if you like break it down to it, right? Like I don't think you get to be whiny about the role, but also begging for a seat at the table where someone's gonna take you seriously, right? Like I just feel like we don't as a profession, we don't know what we're doing or what we should be doing. And that's why I feel like maybe we just need to go back to our roots, right?

Steve Smith (29:01.005)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (29:22.716)
Being really good at compliance but and relationships, right? Building relationships, because when you understand the compliance piece of it, you can be good technical HI, right, Tony, like writing an ironclad corrective action that's gonna stand up forever, right? but also having a relationship with the people in the company, that's when you can sit at the table and say, you know, this person needs plugged in over here or what whatever the thing is and actually be strategic, and move, you know, your operation needle or whatever. But

Steve Smith (29:35.331)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (29:44.461)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (29:52.572)
We're too busy saying words like whatever optimization and workshopping to do just the real words.

TonyB (30:00.187)
Well that's it's it's interesting you say it that way. When I started to sit at executive tables and really started to have an influence on the company, I was not stressed about being at the table. Meaning I needed to be in there, I know I needed to be in there, and everyone else in there know knew that I needed to be there. Right? Because we were discussing things that had to do with people or whatever in such a way that they needed input from the person who knew the people.

Melissa Yergesen (30:12.86)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (30:29.812)
And and they could have a manager come in, right? In and in theory, here here we go again with this. In theory, a manager knows I was just having this conversation with somebody today in a networking meeting. in theory

You your employees who report to you, you know if they have kids, what's going on with the kids, you know if the spouse is doing great or has problems. you know that they're saving money for a motorcycle or a boat or something like that, or they like to fish, or like you know these things about your people. It stuns me how many managers don't want to know that stuff.

Steve Smith (30:58.274)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (31:03.544)
That's I don't want to interfere. I don't want to get in their business. I don't want to, that's I I can't force them to tell me that. Well, no, you can't force them, but you should be a good enough friend to them that they want to tell you. And then your job is to make those dreams and things come true for them. Help them out so that they can be a better employee. Like, and sure, you're gonna train them on how to fold that piece of metal the exact same way 520 times every day.

Melissa Yergesen (31:21.266)
Mm.

Steve Smith (31:23.331)
Yeah.

TonyB (31:28.43)
But you're also going, they're going to not mind doing that because you're helping them achieve their dreams. And it just shocks me how many managers won't do that. And and I think that when I got to the point where I understood what you were talking about, I understood the operations well enough. And they wanted my input on whether or not to implement a business strategy. Like, okay, we're going to open, and this is the example I always give, we're going to open a third shift. How are they going to react to that?

Melissa Yergesen (31:57.126)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (31:57.253)
We're we're thinking about seeding this shift with these four people. If you do that, this is my thing, you're gonna, you know, destroy your your your morale in the day shift that you already have. Or you or this or it's gonna harm your productivity. And and the manager is sitting right there and he's Yeah, yeah, I I c it will hurt the productivity, but I don't know about this and you're like, Well, let me make sure you know about Johnny. He's got this and this and this going on in his life, and it may or may not work, right? And

Melissa Yergesen (32:20.486)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (32:23.319)
Yeah.

TonyB (32:26.306)
And that's and and granted now we're gonna have this conversation about big and small companies, bigger companies that's harder to do. But in theory, that's what your HRBP is for. Because I call him up on the phone, I say, Hey Ted, fill me out fill me out on Johnny's thing and the possibility of going to a third shift and blah, blah, blah, and they fill you in and you're talking about it, and then that's what I take to the table. but when they feel like they need me

Steve Smith (32:33.123)
Correct.

Melissa Yergesen (32:36.39)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (32:38.743)
Yeah. Tell me about the people in your spot over there, right? Yeah.

TonyB (32:51.076)
to be there and to comment on those things and headcount and costs and what it would do to benefits and this and that the others, that's when you know you've arrived and you actually have a seat at the table, not when you forced your way on and you're trying to come up with things to talk about.

Melissa Yergesen (33:05.326)
Absolutely agree. Or weird initiatives that just cause a bunch of work for a bunch of managers that don't really do any good anyway because you don't have a pulse on the business or the people. And I yes, Tony, I totally agree with that. Or even, you know, about their work, right? This goes back to like working alongside with people. I was like a housekeeper at this resort for two full days, which was way too many days to be a housekeeper. But even just

TonyB (33:08.537)
Yes.

Melissa Yergesen (33:30.82)
Spending the day following somebody, right? They're telling me about what about their job is challenging and what tool or resource would help that they probably talk to their manager about, right? but it was different for me because I got to walk right into, you know, top management, say like, we need this and this is why I did it. It's, you know, stupid or hard because of these reasons. That's where I think strategy comes into HR. It's it's not as deep as people are making it become.

Steve Smith (33:40.995)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (33:55.841)
Yeah. You know, I always love that show Undercover Boss because the boss would go in and I I think too often managers go to those seats and they express their opinion, but that's all it is is their opinion. They haven't even gone to their own employees to ask them, Well, what do you guys think? Like, what is your thoughts on this? How would this impact you? It it to me, if you're a manager and you cannot answer those questions for each one of the employees that you're over, you don't have the right kind of relationship with.

TonyB (33:56.452)
No

Melissa Yergesen (34:00.07)
Yes.

Melissa Yergesen (34:08.305)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (34:25.281)
And you certainly don't have the ability to truly strategically work through that in your mind, much less present it to an executive team to say, here's what I think we need to be aware of if we're going to implement something like this, like ABC, right? So, you know, when I was a recruiter, I remember one of the first days when I became a recruiter, one of the first things I did at this this one organization is I literally went and I met for the first two weeks every single manager of every single department.

Melissa Yergesen (34:29.778)
Mm.

Melissa Yergesen (34:39.111)
Yes.

Steve Smith (34:54.699)
And then I started meeting some of the employees as well. This is something I always did. I would I would get to know everybody. In fact, even Applicant Pro back in the day when we were still in the office, everybody that I worked with can attest to the fact that I would say hi to them, that they knew who I was, that I knew things about them. That that's just the way I work, right? And and those are important because again, when you have a pulse on what is actually taking place because you actually know what's taking place.

So much more powerful from a strategic perspective because I know Tony's mouth is dry. And so very important, right? Drunk on Coke.

TonyB (35:28.59)
I've almost drunk all the coke I have of my cup now, just so you know.

Melissa Yergesen (35:31.12)
Drunk.

TonyB (35:34.97)
Drink it. no and

Steve Smith (35:36.757)
I'm just going for watery intoxication over here. So there you go.

Melissa Yergesen (35:39.504)
Be careful you'll throw up.

TonyB (35:41.913)
I only if I sing. Only if I sing. it's I it it so when I was at control four, I took the class on how to be an installer of home automation. Like I had to pass the test to be a certified installer. And I loved it because I learned what the product did and what it could actually do and how to do it, right? and then when I went to work at Dish Network, while I was there, I went out for a couple of days with text.

And I'll tell you what, those it was brutal. That that work those guys do is brutal. And you know, at three o'clock in the afternoon, it say each one takes them an hour, hour and a half to get done to install the dish and all that. And it's three o'clock and you're looking at your schedule and you got one more thing on your schedule, like, good, I'm I'm about to finish up here and and y I'll get out about five ish, right? Is when I'll finish up. that's so great. And then they throw another installation on your thing.

Melissa Yergesen (36:12.434)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (36:39.886)
So you now you have two to do before the day's over. And it's summer or whatever, but you're not you're not going home at five, right? And it that's that's tough work. That's hard to handle. And especially when it's and look, when it's spring or fall and it's pleasant outside, who cares? But when it's either 10 degrees outside or and you gotta chip the snow off people's roofs to install those dishes, or it's a hundred and ten degrees outside, and you're and you're standing next to that roof or whatever.

Steve Smith (37:08.803)
Mm.

TonyB (37:08.964)
Those are the unpleasant days, and you're like, I'm just done with this, right? I I'm just I'm tired of it. And that's that's I gained a lot of respect for those guys and what they did. It was not easy. Or when I came here, when I came matter of fact at Superior, and everybody will forgive me if I say this. I don't think the owners would mind, but what I learned there was I would go out there and they're like, Okay, sandblast these drill bits for us. And I was like, Cool, okay. How do I do it? And they said, Well

Melissa Yergesen (37:17.532)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (37:36.313)
See that one over there? Just sandblast it until it looks like that. And I was like, okay, that's easy. So I got there and I'm sandblasting it and I'm sandblasting for five minutes. And suddenly the sandblaster runs out of sand. And I'm like, wait, what's going on? And I and then one of the guys I go talk to one of the supervisors. Hey, what what's this? And he goes, just kick that pipe down there on the ground and then and then start over. It will be it'll be good for another 10 minutes or so before it happens again. Like, wait, what?

And so I'm sandblast, sure enough it stops. So then I go to one of the maintenance guys and I'm like, dude, this is stupid. I can't work. Like, what's really going on? And he goes, Wait, they didn't tell you how to turn on the agitator? I'm like, the what? The agitator. See this little switch right here? You flip it on and it shakes the sand so it doesn't get caught like that. It doesn't do that. And so then I do it, then I do a bunch of bits.

Melissa Yergesen (38:09.07)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (38:21.769)
So it doesn't get stuck.

Steve Smith (38:25.975)
And here the employees are sh showing you how to do it without the agitator.

TonyB (38:28.63)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, that's just it. And so then I do a bunch of them, right? And I send them off and I'm all proud of myself because now I got done and I sent off. They all got sent back to me because they weren't done correctly. And so then I'm like, So I sand they're like the the shank, which is the part that screws onto the the the drill stream with the threads. They're like, You gotta clean those off too, but be careful with them, don't damage them. It's like, I didn't know I had to clean those off too. So like

But those got sent back to me like three times that batch of bits because I was doing it wrong. So what I learned was our P our supervisors and the head of that department were not training people. They're just throwing them out there. And even the supervisor didn't know about the agitator on this stupid thing. We weren't training them. We weren't showing them how to use equipment. We just throw them to the wolves and say do it. And then two or three weeks later, when they're frustrated because they can't do anything and they're in trouble because they're not fast, you're wondering why

They're looking at quitting or whatever. That to me is the the beauty of it. It's it's just that's what you gotta do. I agree, absolutely agree with that, because it just changes how you see things.

Melissa Yergesen (39:27.495)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (39:37.795)
Well, I think yeah, I think another thing to consider too, I'm talking to well, home health and hospice is just a different ballgame. There's this hospice company right now, they've got a lot of turnover with their nurses. And when you look at their training processes, they really don't have a training process. They give you these notebooks and they say, Well, it's in the book, it's in the book. Well, I I looked at these books. There are three of them. Two of them are for the patients, not for the nurse. And if you don't know that

TonyB (40:04.241)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (40:05.447)
from the beginning, you literally go through and you read that entire book or both of them and you realize this didn't answer any of my questions. But then there's the other book that, okay, here's where the answers are. That's great. Well, all it is is a bunch of screenshots with the red arrows that kind of point to different things and that's it. From a training perspective, yeah, you're gonna have some people that that's exactly what they need, but but I know a lot of people that prefer a video. I know a lot of people that prefer the hands-on. I would rather watch somebody do it.

it not in a video but actually physically there with me. I've got a patient. I know what we just talked about. Can we walk through this together so I know what to fill out? We have to can th those are just three examples of training for one particular subject, right? That that can be done. And and so we have to understand our people as well. I mean, with sandblasting, I I think you're just gonna have to do it right. And then sh you know show them or what have you, but

Maybe watching a video doesn't even help there, but there are so many scenarios that I run into where you have to understand how to train and understand how the people learn.

TonyB (41:02.02)
Well

TonyB (41:08.036)
They should at least tell you what the good outcome looks like when you're done. Because the reason I had to redo them three times is because they just said, it looks like that. And they didn't tell me that it all had to be cleaned, that the nozzles at the top had to be cleaned, th threads, all that sort of stuff. But no that that's exactly right. Right. Look like that. And I didn't know what I was looking at. So yeah, yeah, no, perfect. Melissa, I wanna I wanna ask you about this now. We talked a little bit about this when we were prepping. Let's talk

Melissa Yergesen (41:08.293)
Right.

Steve Smith (41:22.147)
Yeah. They just said be clean without very sp yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

TonyB (41:35.458)
It and I thought what you said was brilliant about this. That's why I want to make sure that we touch on this. Let's talk about big company HR and little company HR. So and she's laughing because this I'm inviting Melissa's sardonic side to come out. So go go go ahead. Let's let's talk about that. Let's talk about it.

Steve Smith (41:47.213)
Big old smile.

Melissa Yergesen (41:52.009)
Mm mm.

Melissa Yergesen (41:56.272)
Yeah, so I so when I was working at Duchenne County, we were right about two hundred FTEs. I went out to the underground mine, we were a hundred that included our corporate office. I was corporate HR, so also small. And then I make this move to Missouri to do HR and hospitality and the company was huge, right? I mean huge compared to what I'm used to. We had a almost fourteen thousand employees, in seventy eight different locations.

Hotels plus a large corporate office. And so director of HR property level. So property level director of HR. And I'm sitting in this training, and it was a couple of new HR people together with our VP, who was of course at the corporate level, and we were going through, you know, how do we use the HRAS and what's the process for workers' comp claim or, you know, whatever, whatever.

TonyB (42:28.078)
And what was your title there though? What was your title? 'Cause that's important. Right.

Melissa Yergesen (42:52.786)
And I had a bunch of questions because I felt like I was missing information. And then it occurred to me that property level HR and VP VPs in a lot of cases don't know the answer because they don't deal with it. So I will give you a couple of examples. So one of the like excuse me, major KPIs, like the KPI for property level HR directors was turnover. in hospitality like that, it's ridiculous. People quit before they even start.

And so we talked a lot about turnover rates and how to kind of manage turnover. And I'm in this location, geographic location, that's highly seasonal, right? You're talking a town of 10,000 people that get up to seven million visitors in the summer and then everybody disappears. And so we're hiring for season. and then full-time permanent employees go on like layoff with recall during the winter and come back.

Steve Smith (43:39.33)
Wow.

Melissa Yergesen (43:49.03)
But seasonal and temporary employees don't count against you in your turnover for their metrics for this. So I I asked the question to my VP, right? Well, but I but everyone gets hired as full-time permanent. Everybody. Like every single employee there was hired as full-time. So I asked my VP, I'm like, why aren't we using a seasonal temporary classification for these employees? For a lot of reasons. One, it's a way to cheat the turnover KPI, right?

Steve Smith (43:56.685)
That's convenient.

Melissa Yergesen (44:14.934)
but additionally, that creates transparency in hiring. I mean, I'd sit in these interviews and they would tell, you know, a t $20 an hour line level employee, like, we're not gonna give you any hours come winter. And everyone, of course, you're in an interview, is like, okay, okay, that's fine. I get it. But then you get there and they don't get it, and they can't buy groceries and they quit, right? And so I'm thinking this creates a real transparency in our hiring people, understand coming in.

Steve Smith (44:37.165)
Mm.

Melissa Yergesen (44:40.074)
which also I think trickles out into the community and being an employer of choice, right? All of these things are just an effect of that. And correct, exactly. So this is such a low-hanging fruit, right? And so, anyways, we start to have the conversations. I ended up with emails with our lawyer about this employee classification. I ended up on a call with three different VPs. One of them was the VP of Total Rewards, who was literally Googling.

Steve Smith (44:46.497)
Which just leads to more turnover and issues with hiring and attraction, all the things. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (45:09.49)
temporary seasonal employee classification because she was trying to argue with me that we had to offer benefits to anyone that works over you know the average of 30 hours per week and so I'm trying to educate her on the ACA. Like that's not how it works. There's a temporary seasonal carve out. It can't you know it's gotta be six months and like all of these things and she's yeah it looks like ski resorts hire seasonal employees. And it was shocking. Like I don't understand. And anyway so the more I dug into it this is what I realized. I think

TonyB (45:14.254)
Ha ha

Steve Smith (45:33.283)
Imagine that.

Melissa Yergesen (45:39.676)
Corporate HR professionals are highly specialized and highly siloed. You do workers comp or you do benefits or you do this or you do that. and that's and they grow up through these corporate ladders, you know, which I I see the the idea of internal promotion, but that doesn't make them good, well-rounded HR people. It makes them really good at workers comp or compensation or whatever the thing is. And so I don't understand how an executive level role

Steve Smith (46:01.795)
Yep. That's it.

Melissa Yergesen (46:07.364)
moving up through HR that way, which actually says a lot about some of the KPIs we had, right? Can think strategically about how to manage people when they've been so siloed their whole entire career. so anyways, I think I think corporate HR is kind of a sham. and you're missing a lot of cross training and, you know, interdepartmental communication and

There's just we're growing up these HR professionals that don't know anything except for their little their little thing that they specialized in.

TonyB (46:40.932)
Did you guys have a team that was specifically assigned to employee relations?

Melissa Yergesen (46:48.102)
Yes. Yes. And I ended up on one call with her regarding an incident that we had and I got HR'd. I said something about a manager being aggressive. And then for about ten minutes she warned me not to use the word aggressive because, you know, blah blah blah. And after I got HR schooled by her, I was like, that was crazy. I didn't see that coming the way that it was. And she offered no guidance or help. And I I remember getting off that call and I emailed my VP and I said, Don't put me on a call with her again. That's not helpful. I don't need HR'd.

I need support from the corporate office. It and but how do you do employer relations when you don't know the employees either? That's the other piece. It's some remote corporate job and you've never even been to the property, you don't understand the workforce demographics, right? Or some of the challenges that you're actually facing on property. I don't know. It was just kinda wild. Yes.

TonyB (47:18.448)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (47:26.369)
Right.

Steve Smith (47:36.653)
Well I remember Yeah. Yeah.

TonyB (47:36.922)
Or the culture or the culture there, right. Or the attitude attitude between all of them, yeah.

Steve Smith (47:42.499)
You know, several months ago when I was let go, I had a conversation with HR and I had several questions and brought up multiple things. Never heard they they couldn't answer, first of all, on the phone. They had no idea and never heard back from They just completely ignored it or, you know, it just well, we're we've already let you go, so we don't care anymore. So it doesn't matter. And it just it boggled my mind at how I don't know, inefficient it was. And probably, you know, one of the more, you know

Melissa Yergesen (47:59.911)
Hm.

Melissa Yergesen (48:07.814)
Mm.

Steve Smith (48:11.947)
unprofessional experiences I've had, but it just it shocked me that I'm like, I'm asking some serious questions here that I think are relevant to what has just happened. And and there was no, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. Well, let me get back to you. And and of course that never happened. So I got ghosted in essence, which was just mind boggling to me that that's

Melissa Yergesen (48:32.582)
Well then you wonder were they kickling like were they kicking it from like silo to silo, like, I don't know, maybe this is an insurance question. That's gotta go over here and then this is

Steve Smith (48:38.935)
I I'm sure they were doing that, right? Yeah. It wouldn't surprise me. And then by the time it got to somebody down the line as like a telephone game, they didn't really have the full story. So they're like, Well, we can't really respond to that. We're not sure. We need more context. Why don't you ask more questions? And instead of that person calling, you know, me as an example, say, Okay, let me dig into this. Nope. It's it again, it goes back through the telephone line and then they're d they give up. And they're well, we're just gonna let it go. We won't even talk about it. Let's not even discuss it. Yep.

Melissa Yergesen (48:44.166)
Yeah it

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (49:01.915)
Yes.

Melissa Yergesen (49:05.702)
Yep. It's been so long, he hasn't called back. Forget it. Yeah. I

Steve Smith (49:09.101)
Yep. Yep.

TonyB (49:11.738)
So so who do you who do you think th th and this is who is better prepared to be HR leadership, small company people or big company?

Melissa Yergesen (49:20.922)
Yeah, small to medium, without a doubt, right? We I say we, 'cause I mean I guess I'm back. So we I you know, where I'm working now is three hundred and fifty employees. And I feel like when you get these huge HR teams that are broken up by discipline, right? Like

That's the thing that they know and they might be really great at those things. and that's fine. But when you don't have these HR structures broken up by discipline or whatever, then the the leaders, the generalists, the HR assistants, they have to know everything, right? Like I feel like the learning curve for me going from like baby, you know, onboarding HR, right? Or posting a job to director level HR was like crazy, right? I had to become an expert in workers' comp claims and return to work or modified duty.

Things, right? I had to learn how to do an insurance renewal for the very first time, right? And talk about controlling healthcare costs. I'm writing discipline. I'm going through a, you know, a government grievance process with a police officer. Like you do all of the things. And so you literally have to be an expert in all the things. And maybe that's go with like back to the thing I said at the beginning. Technical HR. I think we're missing technical HR people. And maybe it's because we've broken them up by discipline. but I think there's real magic and actually.

Steve Smith (50:32.899)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (50:38.708)
Actually, being an expert in all of these areas that you're just never gonna get from somebody who grew up in corporate HR.

TonyB (50:46.842)
That's a good point. And you know, I was dealing with somebody in HR recently who had worked she had seventeen years of experience in HR. It was all in education and all at one of two places. And and and I just in in listening to that and she's a great person and all that. But she thought that she understood HR because she'd been in that industry and she gets it. Well she does in that industry, but that's not how it works across the board.

Melissa Yergesen (51:15.004)
Mm.

TonyB (51:16.568)
Right. And I actually love that I've worked in a bunch of different industries blue collar, white collar, high tech, low tech. I love it that I've worked in those spaces because I understand the broad application of employment law to employers. Now look, I'm not super detailed. You start getting into ACA compliance and look back periods and all that, and my eyes glaze over and I just smile.

Steve Smith (51:16.963)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (51:34.374)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (51:43.589)
But you know what I do with that is I've learned that my broker who helps renew my insurance, I know what tests they'll run for me and what tests they won't. And the ones that I have to run that they won't do for me are things that need to be done, I do those. Or have a person on my team do them. We learn those skills. But that's where that sort of stuff comes in. I like I know I'm not as t that person who handles benefits for

Melissa Yergesen (51:50.661)
Right.

Melissa Yergesen (51:57.756)
Mm-hmm.

TonyB (52:10.82)
you know, a twenty thousand employee company or whatever, they understand benefit in the ACA probably much, much better than I do. I get it. But they can't be promoted out of benefits. Not without a lot of training.

Melissa Yergesen (52:21.434)
Right. That's right. How are they now a VP over property level HR directors? Like that makes no sense. Internal promoting makes sense. This thing doesn't make any sense.

Steve Smith (52:23.107)
Yeah.

TonyB (52:31.896)
Right, right.

Yeah, when I was with Dish Network, we got a call once and somebody was upset that the their the technicians had been there that day and then his house got broken into that night. And he was like, Your text did this, right? So I filled it the call. Okay, let me find out what happened. Tell me all about it. I can't resolve this for you because there's some liability stuff here and corporate's gonna have to help with that. But I can at least investigate the people here and do the HR stuff and all that. And I got my hand slapped really hard for that.

And I'm like, what did I do wrong? You did nothing wrong, but that wasn't your job. Well wait, wait. What do you mean? I was performing my HR role for my guys in my area. And they're like, no, no, we don't want you touching this ever again. If that sort of stuff comes in, it goes to this number, and then we'll call them back when we can. And I was just like, no. Like, but I got in trouble, right? Because your point, I stepped out of my silo. I stepped out of my silo.

Steve Smith (53:27.341)
That amazes me.

Melissa Yergesen (53:31.046)
Yeah.

TonyB (53:31.832)
And I was as someone who worked mostly in small companies, I wasn't afraid to tackle anything. Look, knock on wood, I have n never been sued for something I did as an HR person. So

Melissa Yergesen (53:37.574)
Well yeah, and that's what you do.

Mm-hmm.

Steve Smith (53:43.075)
But see, this is exactly why big organizations they they talk about red tape, right? Or or trying to turn the Titanic. Because there's so much of that that, you know, we gotta talk to so and so and talk to so and so. You wonder why managers are scared to bring stuff up or why employees are scared to even talk about something, or or even why the HR professional who has been siloed doesn't wanna speak up anymore because they've already been reprimanded for stepping out of their particular boundaries. How in the world do you grow an organization or help it become more efficient?

Especially with the onslaught of AI. Think about AI. AI is only as effective as the knowledge that you have because you know how to feed it appropriately to do what you need it to do. But if I am so siloed, I don't even have enough context to feed it appropriately to use it. This is why a lot of the big companies are are realizing we're spending more money on AI than the person we let go without even understanding that, wait a minute, there was knowledge there.

Melissa Yergesen (54:19.835)
Mm.

Steve Smith (54:41.847)
That is needed for AI to function appropriately and to manage it and to check it. And now we've let that person go and we don't understand how this works. And so it becomes a scrapped project. I it it just it it boggles my mind how much, especially the bigger corporate America is losing touch with the individuals at the individual level, even losing touch with their own HR department and managers. And they think AI is gonna fix all that.

Melissa Yergesen (54:49.127)
Yeah.

TonyB (55:09.882)
But and then they wonder why we wonder why in in polls where executives start saying, do we really need HR? Right? Because they don't see an action because they don't allow it to happen. Yeah. So Melissa, before before we get too far on this, one more thing I want to talk talk to you about.

Melissa Yergesen (55:22.01)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (55:23.905)
No, a AI's gonna replace it all.

TonyB (55:33.218)
What is the difference between HR and a small town and a big town? Let let's talk about some stuff that's unique about small town HR.

Melissa Yergesen (55:42.098)
yeah, so I actually spoke on this. A d a disrupt HR th thing. and we talked about doing HR in a rural community, right? so I would

Steve Smith (55:53.091)
Everybody doesn't know everybody, right? That that's a common myth, is that?

TonyB (55:56.657)
Ha.

Melissa Yergesen (55:56.972)
Yeah, no, they do actually. And that's what makes it hard. I will say this, so wor my resort experience in this, you know, it was a much more populated area was sure nice and even working, at the underground mine, there was like a s you know, seventy five miles in between me where I lived and where they were and a town in between and I did feel like that separation was a breath of fresh air. you know

When you have to see someone that you have fired in the grocery store ten minutes later, it is uncomfortable, right? And I think that you don't get lost in the crowd. You get picked out from the crowd often, right? Especially with people who are upset with you. and it does create I think it's more difficult to balance that 'cause you're you're always in it a little bit, right? I have a story I won't

I'll try to stay like as general as possible. We had sheriff's office employees are always really fun and they keep you very busy. And we had a jail employee who developed a relationship with one of the inmates, and they would have accidents in closets in the jail during work hours. And so it yeah, so it all comes to light and she's she's terminated. And I'm

TonyB (56:55.78)
Ha ha ha.

TonyB (57:11.598)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (57:14.115)
That's unfortunate.

Melissa Yergesen (57:20.804)
literally that night after it happened, I'm going to a basketball game to watch my kid play competitive basketball. And here she walks in and her child is playing against my child in this basketball game. And it was horrifying. Like I sat that whole game and it was probably way worse for her than me, right? just thinking about how she's thinking about how I know and, you know, she's with her husband and it's weird and all these things. And I do I do feel like it's like an extra level of, I don't know, broad shoulders or toughness to your skin.

to stay in a small community and do HR because those things happen all of the time. Like my kids know when I'm like, run to the next aisle Like I've definitely seen someone that I have fired. We're all running to go hide, you know, and that's that's tough.

TonyB (58:04.869)
No, and it's it's it's especially because like you you and I we played a things where we're playing there in the band and someone will come up and say hi to me or want to give me a hug or something like, I fired that guy three weeks ago or I just wrote that guy up two days ago or something, right? And and you're like, Wow and and the point it so what I learned, right, is that you have to

Melissa Yergesen (58:23.878)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

TonyB (58:31.81)
All that stuff we learn about employees shouldn't be surprised when you give them discipline and all that sort of stuff, all of that is really, really important. It's really important when you live in a small town because you have to be able to look in the eye afterwards, right? So

Melissa Yergesen (58:39.804)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (58:46.544)
Yeah, I agree. I think you also have to I don't know, it took me too many years to learn this, but to set up some better boundaries, right? When we've w I think everybody when they're young in HR is like, I do this 'cause I love people and I wanna plan Christmas parties and whatever, hoorah. And so you develop relationships with employees that are probably too close. right. And not inappropriate, just like

TonyB (59:01.017)
Right, right.

Melissa Yergesen (59:11.023)
too close and so then what happens is they think you're friends and then you're disciplining them and they're betrayed by you, their best friend from the hallway, who didn't have their back or whatever, which then perpetuates into like a more awkward grocery store run in, right? But setting up those boundaries early.

TonyB (59:27.044)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Smith (59:27.053)
Maybe we just need to make sure yeah, maybe we just need to make sure there's no closets in the office. And I think we would mitigate a lot of stuff.

Melissa Yergesen (59:32.978)
This was actually the freezer, so but close

TonyB (59:33.338)
Ha ha ha ha that's even better. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do our next read now. Running a business is hard. HR shouldn't be. Megastar HR is here to save you from bad HR. With expert support in everything from hiring to handbooks, compliance to culture. Need payroll help or recruiting power? We do that too. Fractionally and flexibly, no overhead, just results.

Steve Smith (59:37.602)
Maybe.

boy.

TonyB (01:00:02.523)
Visit megastar HR dot com and let's grow your business together. Shout out to Becca and she's awesome. And hi Becca. And maybe she'll hear this and she'll want to come up and go on the VFRATO with us. So there you go. Yeah. well Melissa that that's pretty good. Okay, now this is gonna be Melissa's favorite part. We're going to do the HR in life segment. She

Steve Smith (01:00:16.579)
Yeah, that'd be fun, right?

Steve Smith (01:00:26.091)
Yes. She was so excited about this earlier.

Melissa Yergesen (01:00:30.714)
I'm still excited. It's been keeping me engaged, just the thought of walking through it.

TonyB (01:00:51.118)
Wow, there you go. I don't know. That was a little choppy in my ears. I hope it turns out okay. We'll see how that goes. Okay, perfect. No, I've yeah. That's Steve Lake. No, I've been thinking that I need to create something like that for get Ryan to do drums on it and me play a little guitar and yeah.

Steve Smith (01:00:56.301)
No, it worked out good on my side.

Melissa Yergesen (01:00:57.842)
Is that a recording of you, Tony?

Steve Smith (01:01:00.385)
No, that was me, my air guitar.

Melissa Yergesen (01:01:02.661)
right.

Melissa Yergesen (01:01:09.756)
Huch

You should it'll balance out your coolness once you finish what you're about to do here. Yes.

TonyB (01:01:15.536)
When I do this segment. Right, right. Okay. So everyone get ready. Brace yourself. That's right. so I've been re-listening to the Lord of the Rings again. And and I I don't know, I probably listen to the yeah, the the books. Not watch, yeah. I don't just turn on the movies in the other room and listen, yeah. No, no, I listen to the audible books. And I'm listening to it and and I'm there's a few things that

Steve Smith (01:01:17.603)
How balance out.

Balance and the force.

Steve Smith (01:01:29.953)
The book. The the book, right? Just make sure we clarify.

TonyB (01:01:45.409)
because this segment has been in my mind lately and I'm really thinking about this. There's a and for those of you who have seen the movies or read the books, you know you're gonna know what I'm talking about. Those of you who haven't, stick around. You're gonna like where this is going eventually. But so there's a there's a character there's a

Steve Smith (01:02:01.013)
Except for Melissa.

Melissa Yergesen (01:02:02.618)
It almost needed a womp womp.

Steve Smith (01:02:05.059)
Yeah.

TonyB (01:02:07.588)
So there's a there's a character in there and he's hi his his name is Grima, and he encounters and it's off stage, so we don't know when or where it happened, but he encounter encounters the wizard Saruman. And Saruman has turned bad and one of the powers that he has is his voice. He has this magic ability to convince you to do stuff for him. You kinda then they imply there's lots of magic, but when you get to see it in this story it's it's very

logical persuasion, sophistry sort of stuff. But anyways, he convinces Grima, who later becomes known as Wormtongue, so if you've seen this, but he convinces him to join his side and he's using him to spy and other stuff like that. Grima gets caught, Wormtongue gets caught, he goes back and he he's there with Saruman. And at that point their relationship really changes and Grima begins Wormtongue begins to hate Saruman. He's trapped

And he's in it and he's been promised all this stuff and it's not going well and their quote unquote business isn't going well and they're trapped and it's all falling apart on them, but he stays with him. He's given two or three opportunities to not follow Saruman around. But he's so under his spell that he he can't do it. And there's even a scene at the end of the book, if you haven't seen if you've just seen the movies, you didn't see this portion of the book.

because Saruman doesn't really die there in that scene where he dies in the movie, but it's at the end of the book where he kicks Grima and now he's turned to calling him worm. That's his nickname for him, calls him worm. And it's hinted that he forced Grima to eat somebody, eat a person. And it's really kind of gross on all that. But here's here's the here's the takeaway from this. How many of us do it well, it does, it does.

Steve Smith (01:03:58.039)
This so release to work, it's unbelievable.

TonyB (01:04:01.669)
This is this is what I was thinking about in that end scene though, is what I'm what I'm thinking about is how often have I been drawn to an employer by a really good sales pitch. Hey, if you come work for us, we're a tech company, we're growing, you'll have stock options and this and that and blah, blah, blah. and none of those things end up transpiring. Or yes, we really value HR and you get there. No, what they value about HR is that you're the person who knows how to write people up without getting sued.

Like there's there's nothing strategic about it. There's nothing big. And you and I see this all the time in the HR groups on Facebook. I see this all the time. I went to work for this company. It looked really cool. I'm in three months, and holy cow, my boss is toxic and they don't know what they're doing with HR. They don't take anything I say seriously, and I'm told just to swallow it. Just to go along. And that's what I was thinking of is he's kicking him with that. And I just thought

How many of us stick that out? How many of us keep going back over and over and over and we're miserable because we're scared of being on the job market? Or we're we're scared of maybe trying something else and doing something else. Or maybe we're we're worried that our skills aren't up to snuff. But you know, this guy'sn't ever gonna train me or send me to get my PhR or whatever it is, right? And we just take it until we find one day they're kicking us.

Right, and they've got a nickname for us, and it's worm or something like that. Anyways, I I found it interesting that that dynamic, obviously in a fantasy novel, but it's right there and we all experience that.

That's it, dead silence. There's no

Steve Smith (01:05:39.575)
Dead silent Well y you know, I'll be

Melissa Yergesen (01:05:41.284)
I f I'm sorry, I fell asleep.

TonyB (01:05:45.658)
She's fair enough. She's she's moving her arm this whole thing with this like she's like the the the dorcometer is going up.

Melissa Yergesen (01:05:46.802)
I'm just kidding.

Steve Smith (01:05:47.939)
For those of you driving right now, please, please open your eyes.

Melissa Yergesen (01:05:50.834)
Thank you. Warning.

Steve Smith (01:05:54.359)
Yeah, yeah. You know, Mordor obviously is probably one of the greatest examples of a hostile work environment. Lack of health and safety protocols. And I mean, you you look at Gollum and and he's he's the ultimate person of of yeah, Gollum, you know, manipulation and selfishness and and he masquerades that as if it's workplace loyalty, like he's being loyal to the one ring.

TonyB (01:06:03.288)
Yeah.

TonyB (01:06:06.988)
here we go. It was Gollum. I knew this was coming.

Steve Smith (01:06:18.765)
When in reality he's i it's his own selfish purposes and manipulation. I I think what happens is is when you have this corruption of power at that level, it it it can compromise the ethics of even the most honorable team members. And and so for the person who stays like that and and and doesn't really get out of that shell.

They're compromising their own ethics. They're compromising their own self-worth. They're compromising so many things there. And, you know, it's my hope that none of us do that. But yet I think I've seen that at many times in in that world, right? So that that can be a scary thing when you see what toxicity in the workplace can do, especially micromanaging like that, and forcing people to do what you don't want to do.

Because you can control them the way Saruman was controlling. And and it's sad. It's sad because like I said, even those who have the best ethics, I have seen people with the very best ethics fall because of the men that that guided them or directed them in a way they shouldn't have directed them. It it it's sad. There's this there's this old quote. I in fact I think I put this in my book, you know, keep company with good men and good men you will imitate.

But the same is true for the opposite. If you keep company with bad men, you will eventually imitate them. Even if you don't ever want to, you will eventually imitate them. And that that can be a scary thing. And I in fact I think it's a Chinese proverb is is where that originally came from.

Intriguing, so

TonyB (01:07:57.072)
Well, I th I thought you were as good as Confucius. Do you want to say anything about that, Melissa?

Melissa Yergesen (01:08:03.195)
well I w I do want it noted for the record that I have never watched nor read

Steve Smith (01:08:10.083)
The Lord of the Rings.

TonyB (01:08:11.201)
Ha ha.

Melissa Yergesen (01:08:11.522)
Any of this Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Star Trek, none of it. It's not for me. I'm glad it is for you though. Different strokes, right? yeah, I think I think it's crazy that and it happened to me. I wonder too what the correlation is between like career maturity and longevity in these circumstances. I know probably five years into

TonyB (01:08:21.774)
Okay. Right, right.

Melissa Yergesen (01:08:40.592)
you know, my Ducheyne County role, like there some crazy stuff happened, right? And I feel like I was mishandled and mistreated. but I stuck through it, right? You have like a false sense of security, a false sense of loyalty or fear of the unknown, or you're not qualified enough to move on, or there's no jobs in the UNA basin, or whatever the thing is, right? And once I left there, even my kids were like, man, you're so much happier and you seem so much lighter and blah, blah, blah. And it was a valuable lesson for me.

That if I don't like it, then run, right? Like it when you know, you know. And if you're not the right fit for a role, then you're not, or your manager is not the right manager for you, whatever the case is. It's like, you know, they talk about getting the right people in the right seats on the bus. The same is to be said the opposite way, right? Like if you're on the bus and it's not your bus, get off the bus. anyway, so the longer I've gone, I took a job in between jobs at a p like a PEO and I was there for two weeks and was like, Wow, this job is not

Steve Smith (01:09:13.123)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:09:39.75)
for me and I washed my hands clean pretty quick. just because I'd learned this hard lesson.

Steve Smith (01:09:42.637)
Yeah. And don't be afraid to wash your cleans, your hands, right? Don't be afraid to wash them and be done because if it's not a fit, you're just gonna be miserable. And misery loves company. And let me tell you, that will that will seep into your work. It'll seep into your family relationships. Yeah. And that's not where you want it. It's just not. So

Melissa Yergesen (01:09:47.728)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:09:53.393)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:10:00.978)
Home. Mm-hmm.

TonyB (01:10:08.206)
Yeah, that that's a you know, it's in a couple of those HR groups on Facebook, I always put in there, okay, if it really is this bad, and I don't know because I'm not there, you may be making all this up or you may be exaggerating or whatever, but if it really is that bad and they treat people that poorly, do you have an ethical responsibility to try to change it and if you're not allowed to, to leave, right?

Melissa Yergesen (01:10:34.129)
Yeah.

TonyB (01:10:35.02)
And and like look, there's a there's a big difference between I'm not a good manager, right? And doing something illegal or unethical. And it may be legal and but unethical. But my my thought my thought process on that is I have an ethical responsibility to leave. And I keep coming back, wasn't it Uber that got sued several years ago and the HR director went out in public and said, I told him not to do all that and blah blah they just did. Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:11:00.979)
Mm-hmm. It was Uber.

Steve Smith (01:11:01.453)
Yeah, but then they are the ones that got in trouble, yeah.

TonyB (01:11:04.13)
And I was just like, wait a minute, you stayed. If it was really that bad and you knew about it, you had an ethical responsibility to try and change it. And if not, if you couldn't or you weren't allowed to, you had an ethical responsibility to leave. Now you we can argue if you have an ethical responsibility to report them, that's different. I think that's a different level. But you at least have an ethical responsibility not to be participating in harm against somebody else.

Melissa Yergesen (01:11:34.162)
Yeah, I totally agree with that.

TonyB (01:11:34.265)
And

It's

Steve Smith (01:11:37.091)
So so I wanna I wanna p do one positive here because is not Gandalf the ultimate best recruiter that you've ever known? His ability to identify the right candidates, know what their unique strengths and and weaknesses are, the ability to delegate tasks and and really understand the requirements of the the team project, I mean phenomenal. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. So

TonyB (01:11:46.896)
I

TonyB (01:12:02.469)
Yeah, I know, I gotcha. there there goes the dorcometer from Melissa again. You could see it ticking off. The no, and if if yes, and and as a matter of fact, there's this famous opening scene from The Hobbit, which is a kid's book. Famous opening scene of it where Gandalf is talking to Bilbo and all that he goes through. And by the end of the Lord of the Rings

Steve Smith (01:12:05.825)
I Melissa.

Melissa Yergesen (01:12:06.256)
Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm sorry, I fell asleep again. I'm back.

Steve Smith (01:12:09.507)
Welcome back.

Melissa Yergesen (01:12:19.58)
my god, Tony.

TonyB (01:12:28.92)
four so four books later, what you realize is that Gandalf's choice of Bilbo changed the world. So there you go, Steve. There you go. It changed the world.

Steve Smith (01:12:37.379)
Yeah, best recruiter ever. Talk about talent acquisition. There's some stuff we can learn from that guy.

TonyB (01:12:40.898)
Right. Okay. We're we're gonna be right, right. We're gonna be talking at at work elevated this year, Steve and I, so maybe we'll that we'll talk about Gandalf and the ultimate

Steve Smith (01:12:50.669)
We could use Gandalf as a as the the platform.

Melissa Yergesen (01:12:54.268)
Don't advertise that or no one is going to it'll just be you two in a room with like two other dorks.

Steve Smith (01:12:55.863)
Ha ha ha ha.

TonyB (01:12:58.32)
Perfect. Okay. okay, so hold up. With with that all said, let me let me get in this let me get in the ch our today's charity read. We're gonna read for Pucks for Autism. Pucks for Autism proves that when communities rally, families win. Their hockey tournaments raise local funds that support autism programming, inclusion, and connection for kids and adults everywhere.

Steve Smith (01:13:00.035)
Mm.

Steve Smith (01:13:05.491)
TonyB (01:13:27.642)
Join the team that plays with purpose. Visit pucksforautism.com. That's pucksforautism.com and get involved today. Shout out to Claire and the amazing work that she does. And Melissa, you know we often read for Thrive Life Project, which is Brock's deal. We often read for him and he's amazing too, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. anyways, we we wanted to shout out and Claire's gonna join us again.

Melissa Yergesen (01:13:47.324)
Yeah, so good. A hundred percent, yes.

TonyB (01:13:56.068)
Got that on the schedule, so we're excited about that. That's right. We do, we do so.

Steve Smith (01:13:56.247)
Yes, yes, that'll be soon. It's on the schedule. We have a lot of people scheduled right now. Holy cow. Like I we got people coming through the woodworks reaching out to be on. So thank you to our listeners who are probably sharing that, right? But yeah, we have a lot of interest right now, people wanting to be on. So be patient with us as we get back to you because we we have we already have all of July scheduled out pretty much. So yeah.

TonyB (01:14:09.104)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

TonyB (01:14:15.685)
Yeah, yeah.

TonyB (01:14:21.646)
Yeah, and I think by the time we get all that done and by the time they all post, we're probably talking through mid August to late August for the recording of just the people we have scheduled. Yep. Well, okay, Steve, is there one last question you want to ask Melissa?

Steve Smith (01:14:29.431)
Yes. Yep. Yep.

Steve Smith (01:14:36.933)
Melissa, I just I really want you to understand how good of a recruiter Gandalf was. I I just the struggle is real here for me. I just I I struggle. Well what okay, Melissa, what is your favorite movie? Do you have a favorite movie out there?

Melissa Yergesen (01:14:42.17)
I still don't know who you're talking about, Steve.

TonyB (01:14:42.437)
Well,

Melissa Yergesen (01:14:48.256)
huh.

Melissa Yergesen (01:14:52.378)
Yeah, so big. It's like nineteen eighty-three with Tom Hanks. This is why, and maybe this was like I was born in eighty-four, so I think I was negative years old when the movie came out, or close. but when I saw it for the first time, th so Tom Hanks is in this meeting describing this cool toy. and one of the corporate guys keeps saying, I don't get it, right? And he goes on and on about how he doesn't get it, trying to make Tom Hanks look stupid in this meeting.

Steve Smith (01:14:55.269)
I love big. Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:15:20.336)
And then later he goes on with the girlfriend to make fun of Tom Hanks and he says like I don't get it. I don't get it. And he's making fun of him. And thought it was hilarious then. And doing HR, I think it's even more hilarious now because how many times do we walk out of a meeting and we're like, my gosh, fill in the blank should shut up. And so I feel like it's relatable even now.

Steve Smith (01:15:39.616)
Yeah.

Steve Smith (01:15:43.595)
Absolutely. And we all know Tom Hanks was right. But see, again, this goes to the perspective, right? He his perspective was that of a child. And so how often do we go into these meetings and we really don't listen to all of the perspectives? And I think that's a big mistake we make in organizations. In fact, I created an acronym for using AI and and my letter E is enabling perspective. And there's a reason for that. So the word idea.

TonyB (01:15:44.784)
That's cool. That is a good show.

Melissa Yergesen (01:15:53.627)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Yergesen (01:16:07.9)
Mm.

Steve Smith (01:16:10.401)
And the E stands for enabling perspective. And I I think that's something we miss a lot. And so I I love that. So yeah, okay. That's my question. There we go.

TonyB (01:16:17.04)
Well it's 'cause they're all in that room trying to prove how cool they are. That's the problem. All the corporate guys, yeah. Yeah, that that's what they're doing. Melissa, thank you so much for joining us. It's it's been incredible.

Melissa Yergesen (01:16:22.785)
Yeah, it's an ego.

Steve Smith (01:16:23.031)
Yeah. It really is. Yeah, it's unfortunate.

Steve Smith (01:16:32.033)
Yeah.

Melissa Yergesen (01:16:32.37)
Thank for having me. It was really my honor.

TonyB (01:16:37.87)
Yeah, this this has been great. Yeah.

Steve Smith (01:16:38.573)
That was a good conversation. I I appreciate your insight. There was one question that we didn't get to that I was kind of disappointed about. Well, I just I because I wanted to know is there a difference between working for you know the public sector compared to the private sector? And what does that difference look like? Maybe we could just do another episode on that later on. You don't have to answer that, but that's eventually I'm gonna want to know. so anyway.

TonyB (01:16:46.607)
I gotta interrupt the crowd, okay? We held up the sign to stop the crowd. Go.

Melissa Yergesen (01:17:06.022)
That's fair. That's the cliffhanger. When you get through your bazillion recordings, circle circle back. We'll workshop it.

Steve Smith (01:17:10.529)
Yeah. Through through through end of August.

TonyB (01:17:10.544)
Lined up guests.

Steve Smith (01:17:16.707)
Nice, nice. Cool.

TonyB (01:17:18.992)
We'll dialogue. We'll dialogue. We'll resolve in people operations. We'll optimize our processes and come out with something at the other side. Yeah. Yeah. Cause we're so cool. We're so cool. That that's that's exactly right. well again, thanks Melissa. We appreciate you being on today. This has been really good. We've wanted to do this for quite a while. This the time hasn't been right.

Melissa Yergesen (01:17:19.186)
That's right.

Melissa Yergesen (01:17:26.374)
Yes. Yes, correct.

Steve Smith (01:17:31.235)
And we're gonna use AI to do it.

Melissa Yergesen (01:17:34.512)
Maybe.

Steve Smith (01:17:42.061)
Yeah, thank you.

TonyB (01:17:46.948)
But thank you for for being on with us. I think this is really good. We're excited about this. And hopefully everybody got some kind of new perspectives on some of this stuff. I I think think our discussion about the state of HR was excellent. Was really, really good. And see that there was too much coke in that last sip that I took. But anyways.

Steve Smith (01:18:05.527)
No, right? You're like Belchin over there.

TonyB (01:18:09.332)
no old people. I did not edit it out. That was awesome. So anyways, but thank you for for joining us. This was this was really good and it looks like we're gonna go out the same way that we came in.

Melissa Yergesen (01:18:14.908)
Yeah.

TonyB (01:18:27.278)
Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review on your favorite podcast app. Comments or questions for us? Email the podcast at the HRlife Podcast at gmail.com and we will see if we can include you in the calendar. We'll talk again soon.