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Talking all things horticulture, ecology, and design.
00:00:06:15 - 00:00:31:02
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois. And we have got a great show for you today. It's a question and answer show today about lawns, turf, grass, the place where we play bocce ball. We know about that bocce ball croquet. That's the one I'm trying to think of golf and all the sporting activities.
00:00:31:04 - 00:00:47:05
Speaker 1
That's that's that's our lawns. And there's questions about that. And we're going to go through some of these common questions that seem to pile into the extension office around this time of year. And, you know, I'm not doing this by myself. I'm joined, as always, every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.
00:00:47:07 - 00:00:47:22
Speaker 2
Well.
00:00:47:24 - 00:00:53:19
Speaker 3
Hello, Chris. I don't I've heard of bocce ball, but I don't know. Is that something you play on grass?
00:00:53:21 - 00:01:12:13
Speaker 1
No, I messed. I flubbed that one big time. Now, you mentioned I have to leave it in. I was going to cut it out to a bocce ball is usually played on like a kind of like a clay court. Usually that's what I've seen It are pavement some kind of harder, firmer surface.
00:01:12:15 - 00:01:15:13
Speaker 3
Cut your grass real short and you can do it.
00:01:15:15 - 00:01:15:24
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:01:15:24 - 00:01:16:19
Speaker 2
That's just that's.
00:01:16:19 - 00:01:39:13
Speaker 1
One thing that that would be an option you just create a putting green and and there you go you play your bocce ball so I remember when I first started my, my previous life as a landscape designer and these little bocce ball things were super popular in backyards. People were putting them in all over the place. I haven't I've never seen one, though.
00:01:39:13 - 00:01:49:09
Speaker 1
I don't see them anymore. At least I would say they're gone. I think that that phase left. But pickleball seems to be hanging on.
00:01:49:11 - 00:01:51:01
Speaker 3
Pickleball replaced. But you know.
00:01:51:03 - 00:01:51:19
Speaker 1
I think it did.
00:01:51:19 - 00:01:54:22
Speaker 2
Yeah I think.
00:01:55:16 - 00:02:19:11
Speaker 1
my goodness. Well I guess let's do updates here Ken how are things going in your in your garden this time of year in your landscape. Anything fun and exciting with like decent spring rains? Actually, I have been in Jacksonville the last two weekends in a row and it's been rainy both weekends. Guess what happens? Does it rain in Jacksonville when?
00:02:19:11 - 00:02:22:24
Speaker 1
Not at least when I've been there. So how's it been in Jacksonville?
00:02:23:01 - 00:02:46:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, we've gotten some some good, decent rain. So enough that some of our raised beds have a little more clean them than they probably should. They get nice crust on there. It's it's prevented that from cresting too much. So we've got our our seedlings, our carrots and our lettuce and carrots are poking through. So luckily that crust has a prevent them from that.
00:02:46:11 - 00:03:14:04
Speaker 3
These are looking pretty good. And something came in and ate Oliver Artichokes. no, I just found just a bunch of leaves in the garden. So luckily I've got we have six more plants we never planted that were going to be given to family, but they may not get any this year, depending on if the ones we planted about back up our asparagus came in the mail end of April, which was little later than I really was hoping for, but got that planted.
00:03:14:06 - 00:03:23:16
Speaker 3
So yeah, the couple ditches and we put it in there and it's kind of sore after that. And on that much digging in a while.
00:03:23:18 - 00:03:38:16
Speaker 1
AS Yeah, the asparagus season has been going hot and heavy recently and so started a bit earlier than before. So I've been enjoying some good roasted asparagus in the oven here last couple of nights.
00:03:38:18 - 00:03:42:04
Speaker 3
So maybe in a few years we'll be able to pick some.
00:03:42:06 - 00:03:47:18
Speaker 1
Or just exhaust your plants right off the bat, pick them right now.
00:03:47:20 - 00:03:53:20
Speaker 3
Paycheck's either broken up here. It's been a week since they've been on the ground, so.
00:03:53:22 - 00:04:17:12
Speaker 1
Well, I think things are going that they mean it is springtime. I watched our neighbor have a bridle reached by RIA. That thing is has done finished blooming. It was bright white. This weekend and I drove by this morning as I was leaving the house. Flowers have already started to fade. Bridal wreath has ceased bloom as ceasing to bloom now.
00:04:17:12 - 00:04:43:01
Speaker 1
And so we are shifting now, I think, into the warmer side of spring and which feels like we've been in spring since, I don't know, February, but yeah, that's kind of yeah, where we stand for our, our weather. So I'll, I'll see you back in my yard. What if we I planted our cool season stuff a little late course but I had to get him in the ground, got all my tomatoes turned off and ready to go.
00:04:43:03 - 00:05:07:24
Speaker 1
Got some peppers ready to go. The one thing that I was excited about, I was really nervous that my eggplant wasn't going to germinate because the germination requirements for eggplant, it's like 80 to 90 degree soil temperature. So I had heat mat going and this is a specific type of eggplant that both you and I are growing. And also, Emily, I got 100% germination and so I was very excited about that.
00:05:08:01 - 00:05:22:24
Speaker 1
And we are going to as long as it survives me and getting planted outside and all the critters, we are going to have eggplant this year special, a white colored eggplant. So I'm excited to try that one.
00:05:23:01 - 00:05:29:03
Speaker 3
If you have an extra, I may need one. I don't know what it all. I brought him home and they got lost.
00:05:29:05 - 00:05:44:14
Speaker 1
Yes. I, I keep finding these seeds that we have been saying that we're all going to grow together and I keep misplacing them, so we got to do a better job at this. I can I can get you on the eggplant, but some of these other ones.
00:05:44:16 - 00:05:45:14
Speaker 2
Well.
00:05:45:16 - 00:05:47:19
Speaker 1
Next year.
00:05:47:21 - 00:05:56:08
Speaker 3
I think I've got all my other ones. I know where they're at, which is the eggplant I took home to start minutes. Fell into the void somewhere.
00:05:56:10 - 00:05:58:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:58:02 - 00:06:18:04
Speaker 1
And I also think we've had a few questions and emails about the good growing grow a long people asking, Hey, where's that seed? Hey, it's in the mail. It's coming. It's on the way. So just watch your mailboxes. If you signed up for that and you go, they'll be ready to go. No. A reminder for these. These are mostly direct seeded crops.
00:06:18:06 - 00:06:32:03
Speaker 1
And so this is not necessarily something you have to, like, get started indoors. I mean, I guess you could for some of them. But really, you can just go out in the garden when you get them, plant them and they'll start growing for you.
00:06:32:05 - 00:06:34:13
Speaker 3
Yes. The should got an email too.
00:06:34:15 - 00:06:38:14
Speaker 2
On Monday now as well.
00:06:38:16 - 00:07:00:11
Speaker 1
So watch your inboxes, watch your mailboxes. Seeds are on the way. Well, I guess we said we're going to talk about lawns, but yeah, we just talk about other things too. So we do have a couple these common questions as are pooled through some of the emails and things that have come through and phone calls actually that have come in most recently.
00:07:00:11 - 00:07:19:19
Speaker 1
But these seem to be recurring every spring, maybe summer, you know, throughout the growing season. But very common spring lawn care questions. I got a question for you can so this first one, they want to know what do you think about this. So if you mow lower, does that mean you get to mow less? What do you think?
00:07:19:19 - 00:07:31:13
Speaker 3
Can I'd say probably eventually, because if keep on too low too often courses in grass is not going to like that in the summer and you probably end up killing it. So eventually maybe you may get to know.
00:07:31:17 - 00:07:54:21
Speaker 1
O'Sullivan Great answer. Great answer. Yes. You kill your lawn, you don't have to mow it at all. So yeah. So the thing with our cool season lawns, I think for this episode we're going to just going to assume here on we're talking courses and lawns predominantly is what's grown here in Illinois. I know some of you warm, seasoned people with voice of grass are like, What about me?
00:07:54:23 - 00:08:18:17
Speaker 1
Sorry, we're going to focus on cool season because like 98% of Illinois and have a cool season lawn. And so what species is that? That's tall fescue or sorry, it's turf type, tall fescue. Kentucky blue grass, perennial rye. The grouping of fine fest skews. And you know, we're not talking about creeping bent grass, even though that is technically a cool season.
00:08:18:17 - 00:08:45:01
Speaker 1
That's what they use on golf courses and usually a weed when it gets into your yard. So we won't be referring to creeping bent grass. Please don't plant that in your in your lawn there is in lawns. So how high should we mow them when you would go to say the the internet and search that. And what Illinois extension would say was recommendation of a mow height of 2 to 3 inches.
00:08:45:03 - 00:09:17:23
Speaker 1
So that's after you cut that lawn. Now, when we look at a lot of the research that comes out of, you know, turf specialists, experts of different land grants across the country, when we're focused on cool season grasses, they're really just saying mow as high as you can tolerate, really the higher the better. So typically, see, when I'm teaching classes about mowing and turf grass, I am suggesting, you know, folks instead of 2 to 3 inches going 3 to 4 inches for that final cut height.
00:09:18:03 - 00:09:55:05
Speaker 1
And then the question is, well, what about, you know, when it gets dry or what happens to first remote, first or second last mowing of the year? I usually just say just whatever height you have just set it at that height. So then your root system has developed to support whatever that height is. And and it's really it's up to you as your lawn, if you like to play chip around a golf ball, if you like to run around, if you like to try to throw grounder baseballs to to your kid or something, tall grass is not going to be conducive to that.
00:09:55:05 - 00:10:08:12
Speaker 1
So maybe you you switch it up in some spots, but whatever mow height you select set it to that. Ideally for a cool season, grass is 3 to 4 inches high. You know, university recommends 2 to 3 inches high though minimum.
00:10:08:12 - 00:10:10:03
Speaker 2
I'd say.
00:10:10:05 - 00:10:17:09
Speaker 3
If our line we we put them over deck as high as it goes and you know that make it a lift get from my lawn more so I can make it higher.
00:10:17:09 - 00:10:20:13
Speaker 2
But just this as.
00:10:20:13 - 00:10:21:21
Speaker 1
Kids lawn mower have spinning.
00:10:21:21 - 00:10:25:22
Speaker 2
Rims and lift get.
00:10:26:07 - 00:10:28:03
Speaker 1
man that would be sweet.
00:10:28:05 - 00:10:29:03
Speaker 3
Thing or not but.
00:10:29:05 - 00:10:29:13
Speaker 2
It.
00:10:29:15 - 00:10:47:23
Speaker 1
Should be. I bet it is. You could probably go on YouTube right now and find that. So but a lot of people will come to me and they'll say, But if I mow lower, I get to mow less frequently. But but again, if you're final, mow height is going to be around half an inch to an inch tall.
00:10:48:00 - 00:11:27:04
Speaker 1
Well, your lawn has a you know, if we think of this sort of like a tree almost. But I mean, they're plants, grass, lawn grasses, plant is plant. I can't talk. I do think I can. Turf grass is a plant. It wants to grow to a certain height. Its genetics tell it that I must grow this tall. And and when we allow it to gain some of that height that it naturally wants to have it, it won't expend as much energy to try to recoup that lost leaf surface area because a lot of folks will say, well, you know, what I'll do is to help kind of recover some of that energy.
00:11:27:04 - 00:11:49:04
Speaker 1
When I cut it real short, I'll fertilize. And yeah, fertilizer is a great like band aid when it comes to some of those stressful kind of moments. But the thing that people think is like fertilizer is feeding the plants, but it's not feeding the plants. Fertilizer is not plant food. Fertilizer. I say it is a vitamin. It's like a vitamin to plants.
00:11:49:04 - 00:12:11:00
Speaker 1
Just like how we use vitamins. It stimulates something in our bodies, like vitamin B stimulates metabolism, or, you know, the mitochondria in our cells or something like that gives us energy. And same thing for the fertilizer that we put on our plants. And the it's important to stress that plants do not eat fertilizer. They eat sunlight. That's that's what they're hungry for.
00:12:11:00 - 00:12:27:24
Speaker 1
And that's how they make their food. And so fertilizer is is a band aid for the most part. It stimulates a response inside the plant, but it is not plant foods. So you can't overcome that stressful situation with fertilizer long term.
00:12:28:01 - 00:12:29:07
Speaker 2
So, yeah, just.
00:12:29:13 - 00:12:42:01
Speaker 1
Be mindful of that mo high mo often and keep your blade sharp. And that that'll be that'll be the case. Yeah, that's, that's the mantra we all have tattooed on our shoulders.
00:12:42:03 - 00:13:03:20
Speaker 3
And if, and if you're going to be going in, you know, kind of short and then let it grow up and then taken aback. Sure to and typically don't want to remove more than a third of that we've waited time. So if you're in it kind of short but I get real tall and cut it back years, stressing it out even more, and particularly now that we're getting warmer going into the summer months here, it's our course, our cool season.
00:13:03:20 - 00:13:13:03
Speaker 3
Grasses are going to be going dormant if it gets warm enough and all that, and especially if it gets dry, you don't want to stress them out any more than you need to.
00:13:13:05 - 00:13:36:18
Speaker 1
And that's that's kind of long established research, that one third rule and it really started more as like a pasture management concept, hay management, straw management, things like that, where researchers were trying to figure out, well, how far do we have to cut these grasses in order to stress them or maybe to avoid stress? How how what is that?
00:13:36:18 - 00:13:56:16
Speaker 1
And it's really, you know, throughout that research and now translating into turf grass science is, you know, try to avoid removing more than one third of that leaf blade at any one mowing. So what happens if the lawn gets away from me? It has already done that for me this year. It's been rainy. We've been out of town most weekends, as I said.
00:13:56:18 - 00:14:18:12
Speaker 1
So you just raise your mower deck as high as it will go and you cut and you'll have to wait a few days, knock your mower deck a little bit further down or maybe hit your target, mow or cut height. And then, you know, again, but we've all been there. We've all seen what happens when we take like a six inch lawn.
00:14:18:12 - 00:14:39:07
Speaker 1
That's got a little away from us and we'd knock it back down to two inches. It looks terrible for a couple of weeks, and sometimes it's enough to stress out that lawn causes weeds could come in and feed the lawn so that one third mow height, mow often moai, keep a blade sharp. So we do.
00:14:39:09 - 00:14:40:15
Speaker 3
Richard would be proud.
00:14:40:17 - 00:14:43:06
Speaker 1
That's right. He would be proud.
00:14:43:14 - 00:14:51:22
Speaker 3
All right. So our next commonly asked question why don't more people bag their clippings to reduce thatch?
00:14:51:24 - 00:14:56:11
Speaker 1
I've seen arguments erupt with this question.
00:14:56:13 - 00:14:57:16
Speaker 2
And.
00:14:57:18 - 00:15:22:20
Speaker 1
Like at the the the cooler the water cooler or the coffee pot in the office, you know, people start arguing about this mostly males with, you know, they feel like they need to have that immaculate lawn. And those clippings are contributing to maybe debris that accumulates in that lawn, which creates this thing called thatch. Here is a fun fact.
00:15:22:22 - 00:15:41:23
Speaker 1
Lawn clippings do not contribute to thatch for the most part. We could probably find exceptions out there, but for the most part they do not contribute to thatch. When we cut our lawn, most of that leaf blade is water like 90% of that leaf blade is water. And so that is just going to can evaporate. It's going to go away.
00:15:42:00 - 00:16:08:17
Speaker 1
Very small amount of that leaf blade is actual like like tissue cellulose and a lot of it is nitrogen in there that will decompose and actually add nutrients back to our soil. What thatch is, is sort of liquefied, which is sort of a it's like a tougher woody or not Woody's like a tougher plant tissue. It resists breakdown and it can build up over time.
00:16:08:19 - 00:16:36:12
Speaker 1
And usually this is more of an issue when we are dealing with like highly manicured lawns, golf courses, athletic fields. I mean, if you are paying someone a lot of money to maintain your lawn and have it look perfect, it's usually a case of over fertilization, over irrigation, just overstimulation of these these grass plants also can kind of be a natural occurring thing.
00:16:36:12 - 00:17:01:24
Speaker 1
If you're a I'll look at the warm season grasses of grass, which is also common thatch accumulator just on its own. So but for the most part, you don't have to worry about thatch when it comes to your lawn clippings. So if anything, ideally we would want to leave those clippings lay, you can mulch them, you can side discharge and whatever it is, you just don't want them to clump up.
00:17:02:01 - 00:17:18:21
Speaker 1
Because again, as those clippings decompose, they return nitrogen back to your soil, which is the only not the only, but it is one of the key nutrients for our grass plants because we grow them for their leaves, not their flowers, not the fruit, not we grow them for their leaves and nitrogen equals leaves.
00:17:18:23 - 00:17:31:09
Speaker 3
And thatch isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's good to have some that's going to add some some cushion to that. It's going to protect the grounds of the plant. So you don't want to have no thatch at all. It's probably not a good thing.
00:17:31:11 - 00:17:50:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it's a half inch. If you have more than a half inch of thatch, then it's an issue. Anything less than that, You're good. Actually, it's it's actually a good thing to have a little bit of thatch in your on top of your turf surface, which I don't have. And every time it rains and I walk on my lawn, I have slowly killing it.
00:17:50:13 - 00:18:04:03
Speaker 1
And so not protecting the crown at all because that's I don't take much I don't take very good care of a lot of my lawn. That's unfortunate. So why are you even listening to me right now?
00:18:04:05 - 00:18:08:23
Speaker 3
My lawn is more weeds than grass. In most house.
00:18:09:00 - 00:18:11:19
Speaker 1
I call them flowers. Can I call them flowers?
00:18:11:22 - 00:18:16:20
Speaker 3
In some spots there is no grass just creeping. Charlie.
00:18:16:22 - 00:18:37:22
Speaker 1
It's true. It's true. Hey, I love creepy Charlie. It smells great when I cut it, so I might be alone in that house. Well, Ken, did you know when the forsythia bloom this year? I. I have a forsythia in my backyard, and I was not able to keep track, but I. Because I cut it hard last year. I cut it back pretty hard.
00:18:38:00 - 00:18:42:21
Speaker 1
I don't have very many flowers on it this year.
00:18:42:23 - 00:18:51:19
Speaker 3
And remember somebody close to us as a forsythia. But I don't know if I ever do my walk by when I was booming.
00:18:51:21 - 00:19:18:03
Speaker 1
Well, I think we kind of had a funky spring where it was it could have been variable. I mean, our magnolias didn't bloom at all in my neck of the woods. And so I don't know if there is issues with that. But another common question we get is I should put down my weed and feed, which is like a grass for winter slash fertilizer when our forsythia are blooming.
00:19:18:05 - 00:19:26:23
Speaker 1
I don't know, good or bad advice. What do you think about that, considering we don't even know when the forsythia bloom this year?
00:19:27:00 - 00:19:36:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's I mean, it may have some years, it may work some years. I mean, you're probably better off monitoring soil temperatures if you're going to try to control crabgrass.
00:19:36:06 - 00:20:06:16
Speaker 1
It's like this guy studies this stuff. You know, he's he's really smart. So, yeah, it's like soil temperatures. That's that is the trigger for crabgrass, germination. It's not necessarily forsythia blooming though the the phenology of of the world. You know phenology is the study of like how the timing of natural things as they process throughout the season. That's a good measure for some things and like Ken said, sometimes it would work for crabgrass preventer.
00:20:06:18 - 00:20:39:23
Speaker 1
Some years it won't work. The most reliable thing is to look at soil temperatures. And so when you get a soil temperature above 55 degrees for 5 to 7 consecutive days, you're going to start getting germination of crabgrass seed. And we had that and like March, I thought that was early, early this year. Most people try to have their crabgrass preventer down in April 1st in my neck of the woods, and they might have been too late this year.
00:20:40:00 - 00:21:02:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. And even when when you're putting that down, all the crabgrass isn't going to Germany. Right. Then it's going to take by the time you're you're we your weed, part of your weed and feed wears off are still probably going to be some in Germany. So it's not a not a foolproof you may have to go back and and do some more or just embrace the crabgrass.
00:21:02:10 - 00:21:03:00
Speaker 2
Just mow.
00:21:03:00 - 00:21:04:23
Speaker 1
It like the rest of the grass. I love.
00:21:04:23 - 00:21:05:20
Speaker 2
That.
00:21:06:07 - 00:21:30:04
Speaker 1
there. But people really do get sensitive about crabgrass for some reason. I mean, it has that prostrate growing habit sort of is like like Moses parting the sea of green there and it's just splayed out. Everybody sees it. I've heard, you know, people that will like like in the middle of the night, they'll go out with a shovel and they'll dig out the crabgrass out of their yard.
00:21:30:04 - 00:21:46:13
Speaker 1
And they think like, I fooled everyone. And then during the daytime, they realize looks like little bombs exploded throughout the yard where they dug it all up. Lawn care does not have to be the stressful. That's why that's why we invented lawn mowers. So we could just chop it all back.
00:21:46:15 - 00:21:48:19
Speaker 2
Exactly.
00:21:48:21 - 00:21:55:03
Speaker 1
The other big thing about weed and feed, I'm going to mention this. Kids, like, shut up already about this.
00:21:55:05 - 00:21:55:17
Speaker 2
About this.
00:21:55:17 - 00:22:21:18
Speaker 1
Grass stuff. The other thing about weed is weed and feed is weed. Extension will typically recommend if we can separate our free immersion herbicide from our fertilizer. That is going to be ideal weed and feed as a combination product. They are marketed as convenience products. So hey, I'm going to do this one thing and it's going to do two things for me.
00:22:21:20 - 00:22:46:03
Speaker 1
Now, when it comes to crabgrass prevention, we typically, like I said, we want to have that down before sold. The soil temperatures at 55 degrees usually is around April ish first. That's just kind of a but that's not realistic. That's not a reliable date. So just be mindful of that. Forsythia are not always reliable that April 1st date, not always reliable.
00:22:46:05 - 00:23:11:10
Speaker 1
So temperature is the reliable mark for us, but usually we have to get that down in order for it to be active in the soil. That's about a week or two. So again, read those label directions on those products. But why we want them separate is because if we put fertilizer down early, early spring, maybe even like late winter, our fertilizer has nitrogen in it, which stimulates vegetative growth.
00:23:11:12 - 00:23:34:11
Speaker 1
As I mentioned, nitrogen is grows, leaves when we tell our grass plants and we stimulate that that reaction in our plants to grow leaves in early spring. We are telling that plant also stop growing roots. So there's a lot of root development happening in March and early April. Those cool season grasses, they can sense things are warming up.
00:23:34:15 - 00:23:55:23
Speaker 1
They know they have to prepare for those hot, drier summer months. So they're focusing a lot of energy en route to growth and development. And we throw nitrogen down too early. We say stop growing roots, start growing leaves. And so there's there's not endless energy in that grass plant. It has to devote energy into what is happening inside that plant.
00:23:55:23 - 00:24:31:05
Speaker 1
So we stimulate vegetative growth too early. We sacrifice root development. So that's when we typically say for if you're going to do a spring feeding or fertilizer application, wait until after that, you know, initial flush of green growth, you know, about a month or two after you've been mowing constantly, twice a week, maybe once it starts to slow down, then you can do your spring fertilizer application to kind of help the plant rebound, rebound from from any nutrient deficiencies that might have from all of that growth that just went through.
00:24:32:02 - 00:24:50:17
Speaker 3
All right. So another common one we get is trees. So grass struggling to grow underneath trees, usually large shade trees, maples oaks, evergreen sometimes, which I don't know what you do about that. How can you get it to grow and look healthy?
00:24:50:19 - 00:25:27:24
Speaker 1
And I'm. that's a tough one can cause usually I know what I would do, but I guess maybe we should explain what's happening first to why why is there a struggle between these two particular types of plants? And what I see is is very commonly so let's say we have an established shade tree. It's been there for decades, has a very established root system, and we then come in and want to try to grow grass in that soil.
00:25:28:01 - 00:25:47:19
Speaker 1
Few things we need to know about how both of these plants work is that trees don't have a very deep root system. When people think about the trees, they often think, they have a deep tap root that goes way down into the earth to get water and resources. And that's not the case. Tree roots need to breathe oxygen.
00:25:47:21 - 00:26:11:20
Speaker 1
And so they are in the top kind of 6 to 10 inches of soil. I would say that that range that I hear very commonly is 4 to 8 inches deep for those tree roots. So when you think of a like a shape of a tree, think of it as a wine glass. So the canopy is the the globe or the the thing that holds the water, the stem of that wine glass is the trunk.
00:26:12:01 - 00:26:39:09
Speaker 1
And then the base of that wine glass is the root system. But imagine that based extending 3 to 5 times the the width of that canopy and you have the structure of a tree effectively right there. And so that that tree roots are right there with those grass roots, and they are competing for resources in that soil. And if those tree roots are already established, guess what?
00:26:39:11 - 00:27:01:15
Speaker 1
They have priority. They they are the grass roots are going to struggle to try to establish themselves and to, you know, find their own resources. The opposite I tend to find is true when we have new develops elevate subdivisions and they cut down all the trees and they roll out the sod. And the side has been growing there for years and years.
00:27:01:15 - 00:27:26:07
Speaker 1
It's well established in that we plant these baby trees in this sod. The trees usually struggle to establish in those situations because again, there's competition happening there. And at this point in the conversation I asked the homeowner, Well, what would you rather have? A nice, beautiful lush lawn or a shade tree that might cool your home in the winter?
00:27:26:07 - 00:27:54:15
Speaker 1
It could add property value. You know, that choice is really theirs. And they they'll say, Well, what if I want both? I say, Well, you could try to seed some fine rescues underneath that tree. Now find fescue as a grouping of cool season grasses. So like red fescue to in fescue magics, fescue, all those, and they're the most shade tolerant of all of our cool season grasses.
00:27:54:17 - 00:28:15:06
Speaker 1
And by shade tolerant, I mean they still look good, still need to have at least 4 hours of direct sunlight a day. Like direct like sun has to be shining on them. And that doesn't often happen in the shade of a tree. So then again, the question is, would you rather have a lush, thick lawn or the shade of a tree?
00:28:15:06 - 00:28:17:16
Speaker 1
So what would you pick then?
00:28:17:18 - 00:28:19:01
Speaker 3
I'd pick the tree first.
00:28:19:01 - 00:28:22:07
Speaker 2
I knew it.
00:28:22:09 - 00:28:27:18
Speaker 3
And, you know, that's one of those things where you want to have something on the ground. Just look at a different groundcover.
00:28:28:15 - 00:28:51:06
Speaker 3
And there's there's plenty of of shade ground covers out there. And if you want native stuff, you can look at the the ginger while ginger you do ferns, you want something like the taller hostas, which I don't know sometimes get a bad name in the, in the horticulture world because everybody plants them. But there's still good plants, There's a lot of variety and colors and stuff.
00:28:51:07 - 00:28:54:01
Speaker 3
So there's there's a lot of options out there.
00:28:54:03 - 00:29:15:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I like hostas. They work well where the deer don't get them in my yard and I don't know where they are, where I do plant them and the deer get them because the deer pretty aggressive even with two dogs. So I've been using Sedges. So I've, I've planted Sedges under an oak tree in my backyard that have worked out really well.
00:29:15:12 - 00:29:35:13
Speaker 1
As Ken said it was. Yeah, the wild ginger, which we've planted last year and I'm so excited they just popped out of the ground just now and, and I'm like very excited to have them. You can do what he plants some of our azaleas. Rhododendrons are more shade tolerant, more adapted to growing within that root structure of those trees than, you know.
00:29:35:13 - 00:30:10:13
Speaker 1
Some of our hydrangeas as well are also adapted to some of those situations. And so and the other thing, Ken, you mentioned evergreens. That's the other question, too, like, I want to get grass to grow underneath my white pine. Please save yourself the effort and just leave those needles there. They are an excellent mulch. They suppress a lot of weeds that would otherwise be growing there and again, this is kind of a matter of opinion and esthetics, but I like a like a full like cult, like a skirt on that evergreen tree.
00:30:10:13 - 00:30:30:02
Speaker 1
I like it being from that Christmas tree shape all the way down towards the base, towards the ground. And so I don't I don't like living up evergreens. I just it again, that's a preference. And I could comment on the overall health, but that's more of a it's less scientific, it's more opinionated.
00:30:30:02 - 00:30:31:06
Speaker 2
But yeah.
00:30:31:08 - 00:30:39:17
Speaker 1
I would say try not to limp your tree and enjoy the full form of that evergreen.
00:30:39:19 - 00:30:57:15
Speaker 3
Yes Yeah. I would agree with and and going back to your I mean you mentioned the the pine needles even on there another option which is mulch under your state trees if you can't get anything to grow, don't want other things or if you still want to be able to to use that and not worry about trampling ginger or ferns or hostas or anything like that.
00:30:57:19 - 00:31:01:01
Speaker 3
Mulch would be mulch is always an option.
00:31:01:06 - 00:31:26:20
Speaker 1
yeah, Always an option. Yeah. You can mulch there. You know, I've been putting sometimes I'll put impatiens and something like that containers around underneath like dense shade areas. Just give, put a little more light collodion, you know, like a white variegated palladium that, that white color really pops, especially in those darker parts of the yard. So yeah don't don't try to fight nature.
00:31:26:20 - 00:31:29:11
Speaker 1
Figure out ways where you can work work with it.
00:31:29:13 - 00:31:32:13
Speaker 3
So you will always lose.
00:31:32:15 - 00:31:35:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's the.
00:31:35:10 - 00:31:37:12
Speaker 1
Story of my life.
00:31:37:12 - 00:31:55:14
Speaker 1
Well, can I have to ask you a question here about a type of grass? And this is something that comes in a lot like this is going to be confusing. So let's preface this next portion here. This is our last question. It's going to be maybe a little bit confusing at first. I'll do my best to explain.
00:31:55:14 - 00:32:15:15
Speaker 1
But then a lot of times people come to me and say, I keep planting Kentucky 31 Bluegrass, Kentucky. 31 bluegrass. All right, All right. I'm going to keep going. And they keep saying, it looks terrible. What do I need to do differently to make it grow? Well, now this is a trick question. So let's see what you got here.
00:32:15:15 - 00:32:19:09
Speaker 2
Can well.
00:32:19:11 - 00:32:23:12
Speaker 1
Totally trick question. Chicken was not prepared for this.
00:32:23:14 - 00:32:29:06
Speaker 3
I think there is something different. Is it? Is this like a pasture grass?
00:32:29:08 - 00:32:30:11
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:32:30:13 - 00:32:31:17
Speaker 1
It is. And it's not.
00:32:31:17 - 00:32:33:09
Speaker 2
Bluegrass.
00:32:33:11 - 00:33:11:14
Speaker 1
This is very confusing. Okay. I'm going to do my best to walk us through this year. Okay. Kentucky 31 is not Kentucky bluegrass. A lot of people will see this and say Kentucky, 31, Kentucky bluegrass, just the brain makes that connection. But that's not what it is. Kentucky 31 is actually tall fescue, a pasture grass. And so that the thing with Kentucky 31 is you will often find this in farm stores.
00:33:11:16 - 00:33:47:20
Speaker 1
And I mean, at least where I'm from in rural parts of the state, it will be in this big bin. It's this big open bin, says Kentucky 31. There's really no labels. There's no like anything that state that like the germination percentage, nothing, no purity stuff. Not down to that, says Kentucky 31. There's a scoop and there's a bag and you fill the bag up and again, people will think or assume that this is Kentucky bluegrass or in fact, you're putting a pasture grass in your for your yard.
00:33:47:22 - 00:34:11:23
Speaker 1
And it's not even Kentucky bluegrass. It is tall fescue. Now, you might have heard me mention that there's a turf type, tall fescue. So turf grass breeders have taken the pasture. Tall fescue, which is does not make a very good lawn grass. And they've been breeding it for decades to try to mimic Kentucky bluegrass. They're getting pretty close.
00:34:12:00 - 00:34:36:16
Speaker 1
The leaf blade has gotten narrower, kind of a finer texture, like Kentucky bluegrass. It's gotten a darker green, kind of like Kentucky bluegrass, but it's still not quite the exact same thing. And that's fine for most people. I think we wouldn't want really bother us. But if you're kind of a lawn purist, if you must be manicured and uniform, it might might bother you a little bit.
00:34:36:18 - 00:35:06:21
Speaker 1
So so that is the issue in this case is that Kentucky 31 is for pastures and it's also tall fescue. If you want to put tall fescue in, you would want to search out a turf type, tall fescue. And I did a good growing blog about this year, two ago, and I went to the instep, which is the National Turf Grass Evaluation program results for tall fescue and they ranked them at the end of their trial.
00:35:06:23 - 00:35:24:13
Speaker 1
And in that article we give the top ten varieties that Intel recommends for four for turf grass turf type tall fescue. So I'll leave a link to that below description and you can check that out. And I think Kentucky Bluegrass trial results just came out this year too,
00:35:24:13 - 00:35:29:05
Speaker 3
So you do grow something differently or get some goats or cows.
00:35:29:07 - 00:35:38:17
Speaker 1
There you go. Yeah. You just don't use the lawn mower. You have to use an animal to help you keep that down. Yeah. So you're right, Ken. You knew it all along.
00:35:38:17 - 00:35:43:21
Speaker 1
Well, that was a lot of great information about turf grass questions, lawn questions.
00:35:43:21 - 00:35:53:07
Speaker 1
I think a great podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension, edited this week by me, Christian Roth special. Thank you, Ken. Thanks for hopping on this Zoom call with me today.
00:35:53:09 - 00:36:00:14
Speaker 1
Kind of impromptu. And let me maybe give you a little trick questions there. So thanks for being here.
00:36:00:16 - 00:36:05:07
Speaker 3
You're welcome I'm not sure I contributed a whole bunch, but thanks for having me on.
00:36:05:09 - 00:36:23:22
Speaker 1
And I will say this is how when when we're talking insects, I'm just sort of sitting back in fascination and watching. So that's the thing. Insects are interesting. The lawn is not it's it's it's the joke watching grass grow. So it's not the most interesting thing.
00:36:23:24 - 00:36:28:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's all good. Let's do this again next week.
00:36:29:01 - 00:36:48:06
Speaker 1
we shall do this again next week. Speaking of bugs, we're going to be talking about monarch butterflies with probably the country's foremost expert on this topic. So that is going to be a very interesting conversation about Monarch IX. And what is the most latest research out there? You probably heard about the smaller overwintering numbers. What does that mean?
00:36:48:11 - 00:37:02:18
Speaker 1
Do we need to do anything? What what's the science say about this? It's going to be an eye opening show, so you're going to join it. So, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best and that is listening. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, watching and as always, keep on growing.